Plato And The Kabbalah

[Santa]

Wow! This is interesting.

http://newensign.christogenea.org/content/plato-and-kabbalah

Here's a sample of the full paper. There's much more at the link.


Throughout the centuries, leading Jewish mystics and Kabbalists regarded Plato as a
student of their doctrines. Among the prominent Kabbalists of the Renaissance, for
example, was Leone Ebreo, who saw Plato as dependent on the revelation of Moses, and
even as a disciple of the ancient Kabbalists. While Rabbi Yehudah Messer Leon,
criticized the Kabbalah's similarity to Platonism, his son described Plato as a divine
master. Other Kabbalists, such as Isaac Abravanel and Rabbi Yohanan Alemanno,
believed Plato to have been a disciple of Jeremiah in Egypt. On the similarity of the teachings of the Greek philosophers and the Kabbalah, Rabbi Abraham Yagel commented:


This is obvious to anyone who has read what is written on the philosophy and
principles of Democritus, and especially on Plato, the master of Aristotle, whose
views are almost those of the Sages of Israel, and who on some issues almost
seems to speak from the very mouth of the Kabbalists and in their language,
without any blemish on his lips. And why shall we not hold these views, since
they are ours, inherited from our ancestors by the Greeks, and down to this day
great sages hold the views of Plato and great groups of students follow him, as is
well known to anyone who has served the sage of the Academy and entered their
studies, which are found in every land.1


While these claims may at first seem contrived, there is a great deal of evidence to
substantiate it, and Greek philosophy can be demonstrated to be an appropriation of the
ideas of the Babylonian Magi, who in turn were influenced by early Jewish Kabbalistic
ideas.



The subject of Persian or Babylonian influences had been a contentious one in the earlier part of the twentieth century. The subject currently continues to receive attention from several leading scholars, including Walter Burkert, and M.L. West.On the whole, however, the idea has yet to penetrate into mainstream circles, because of a xenophobia which insists on the unique “genius” of the Greeks.


Ancient Babylon


Although Kabbalists make claims of a much older tradition, the Kabbalah was incepted in
Babylon, when the Jews were held there in captivity, in the sixth century BC. A faction
chose to reclaim their former status in the Promised Land, and achieve the world
domination they believed was promised to them, through the practice of magic. Magic
is, however, is forbidden in Judaism, and therefore, not to reveal their apostasy,
they created an "interpretation" of the religion, which is now called Kabbalah.
And, having rejected the Jewish God, their secret interpretation involved reverence for
his enemy, the dying-god of ancient fertility rites. The dying-god was associated with the
Underworld, where he was said to sojourn in the winter, and from which he was
subsequently resurrected in spring, by his sister, the goddess. As twins, the dying-god
and the goddess were interpreted to represent dual aspects of a single androgynous deity. Therefore, both came to be symbolized by the planet Venus, whose original Latin name was Lucifer.


These Kabbalists, however, were confused by ancient historians with the chief priests of
the Babylonians, known as the Chaldeans, and with the priests of the religion of
Zoroaster, or Zoroastrianism, known as Magi. The ancient cult practices of magic and
sex-rites that figured in the cult of the dying-god were incorporated by these Magi, who
developed the Mysteries of Mithras, the ancient god of the Persians.


This fact was pointed out by one of the leading scholars of the twentieth century, Franz
Cumont, in Les Mages Hellenisees, which remains to be translated into English.
According to Cumont, those Magi with whom the Greeks were most familiar were these
heretical Zoroastrians, which he called Magussaeans. What I have pointed out in my own
book, The Dying God: The Hidden History of Western Civilization, is that the heretical
leanings of these Magi were derived from the principal tenets of the Kabbalah, including
dualism, the worship of a dying-god and the four elements, astrology, pantheism,
numerology, and the belief in reincarnation, which were falsely attributed to Zoroaster.
R. C. Zaehner commented that in many cases the Magi were sorcerers, or demon worshipers, who were condemned by orthodox Zoroastrians. Zaehner continues:


The practice of worshipping the demons is also referred to by Clement of Alexandria:
“the Magians”, he says, “worship angels and demons.”2 This as we have seen, is the
practice ... of the “devil-worshippers”, the third Iranian sect mentioned in the Denkart.
With these facts in mind it will, perhaps be safe to conclude that Xerxes, in suppressing
the deava cult, caused a large-scale emigration of dissident Magians. These, after
absorbing much of Babylonian speculation, transported their beliefs to Asia Minor; and
from them arose the Graeco-Roman religion of Mithra.3


With the expansion of the Persian Empire in the sixth century BC, the ideas of the
Kabbalistic Magi were cultivated in different parts of the world, mainly in Egypt, and in
India, where they went on to influence Buddhism, and most importantly Greece.
Jewish Influence in Ancient Greece


There were already important hints of Jewish influence in Greece long before the sixth
century BC. However, there are no specific references to Jews by the Greeks until the
third century BC. Therefore, Herodotus does not mention them, but discusses the
“Phoenicians” and the “Syrians” of Palestine who practiced circumcision.4 In classical
times, the Greeks recognized three great divisions among themselves: Aeolian, Ionian,
and Dorian. According to Greek mythology, the Ionians and Dorians both derived their
origin from a foreign source, the “Phoenicians”.

[MAGNES]

I'll bump this for the sheer comedy of it.

And the fact this is the kind of stuff that goldie was posting that got her outed.

The people that write this stuff are total loons.

The goal is to deceive small minds in the short term, all corruption, by association even.

Just like the video goldie posted, the " prof ", so loony I search youtube and find him talking about lucifer.
Parallel Universes exist, time travel possible (tough one for Religions) (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?24194-Parallel-Universes-exist-time-travel-possible-%28tough-one-for-Religions%29)

Both posts have very serious issues with time lines too, Plato comes over 1000 years before Kaballah.
Just like Constantine came 350 years after the burning of the library of which he is blamed, lol .
Apparently the library was full of jewish books too, lol, Alexandria was Greece and Jews were the
parasitic minority that burned the University down 50 BC, including the Library.

Even Ruskie who is a mason tried to make some of these points on gim, a comes before b,
but he forgot to say 1000 years separates it, lol, that was another doozy by goldie.

West Vs East, Freedom and Justice Vs Totalitarianism , West Vs Oriental Depotism,

The Kabbalists are also the Talmudists, enemies of the West.

Alot of the Kaballah is magic worship and lots of hidden stuff like Masonry,
as a matter of fact Masonry is all Kaballah baloney put there by Pike himself.

It get's worse, some have made the case the hidden god in Kaballah is Lucifer/Satan
at the top. Again very similar to Masonry.

Here is lots of discussion of the occult/masonry and Plato. They are total opposites.
I am not doing it again, I take on all comers, read it and ask me the tough questions,
I'll see what I can do, maybe put up more references or sources, don't be shy, FIXED LINK.
http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?44682-So-I-bought-a-copy-of-Pike-s-Morals-amp-Dogma....

Plato's Cave, wake up your fellow man from the puppet masters.
It is basically the ancient version of the matrix, FIXED LINK.
http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?44682-So-I-bought-a-copy-of-Pike-s-Morals-amp-Dogma....&p=379557&viewfull=1#post379557

JEWPEDIA AND MASONIC PLOT don't even dare either.

Plato , The Republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Republic_(Plato) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Republic_%28Plato%29)

The Republic (Greek: Πολιτεία, Politeia) is a Socratic dialogue written by Plato sometime around 380 BC concerning the definition of justice and the order and character of the just city and the just man.[1] It is Plato’s best-known work and has proven to be one of the most intellectually and historically influential works of philosophy and political theory.[2][3] In it, Socrates along with various Athenians and foreigners discuss the meaning of justice and examine whether or not the just man is happier than the unjust man by proposing a city ruled by philosopher-kings. The participants also discuss the theory of forms, the immortality of the soul, and the roles of the philosopher and of poetry in society.[4]

“The safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it
consists of a series of footnotes to Plato.” Whitehead

Plato can be summed up in one word, Justice, and further Justice and the Moral State.

Plato is the West, and was one of the most influential of all Western Philosophers and
The Church even, who viewed Jews as their enemies.
Ask Abe at ADL, the NT is hate literature.

Even JFK quotes the blood relative of Plato, Solon, who himself invented Republicanism.
Plato himself believes this, what JFK said and taught it, you must be involved, if you are
not the wrong people will take power over you. The word idiot comes from this, describing
the apathetic.





Solon is my favorite Greek.


Breaker of all debt contracts and destroyer of the mortgage stones, outlawing debt slavery,
creator of separation of powers, representation, creator of institutions encouraging citizen
participation, by law even, law courts, citizen jouries, trials, destroyer of the Oligarchy, the founding
fathers of the USA knew him and his works well, ... , he lives today, even John K quotes Solon in his
famous speech that got him killed, against secret societies.

JFK Blows The Whistle on Secret Societies!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnkdfFAqsHA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnkdfFAqsHA


Edit add, cleaned this up a bit, fixed some links, I just banged this off fast.
My writing is more mechanical, so please excuse me, I was not gifted by the Muses.
I encourage everyone to do their own research. It really does boil down to a fight,
Western Man Vs Oriental Depotism.

[sirgonzo420]

Magnes, do you not think Plato would have been familiar with the teachings of the Mystery Schools in his day?

[Santa]

Both posts have very serious issues with time lines too, Plato comes over 1000 years before Kaballah.

Oh really? Hmmm... let's see. I realize this article may be wrong on a number of points, just not on any you've pointed out, but Baylon began around the third millennium BC and the neo-Babylonian Empire was around
612-539 BC while Plato lived around 427-347 BC or so, give or take. That would give Plato plenty of time to familiarize himself with a mature Kabbalism.

According to this article, which apparently you haven't bothered reading since you already know everything, I'll help you out and point out this paragraph for you.


Although Kabbalists make claims of a much older tradition, the Kabbalah was incepted in
Babylon, when the Jews were held there in captivity, in the sixth century BC. A faction
chose to reclaim their former status in the Promised Land, and achieve the world
domination they believed was promised to them, through the practice of magic. Magic
is, however, is forbidden in Judaism, and therefore, not to reveal their apostasy,
they created an "interpretation" of the religion, which is now called Kabbalah.
And, having rejected the Jewish God, their secret interpretation involved reverence for
his enemy, the dying-god of ancient fertility rites. The dying-god was associated with the
Underworld, where he was said to sojourn in the winter, and from which he was
subsequently resurrected in spring, by his sister, the goddess. As twins, the dying-god
and the goddess were interpreted to represent dual aspects of a single androgynous deity. Therefore, both came to be symbolized by the planet Venus, whose original Latin name was Lucifer.

[MAGNES]

Where are the written works, you are so full of shit it ain't funny, the Jews couldn't
even write the OT in their language, it didn't even exist, just because someone says
it comes from 1000BC, there is no record of it, using that standard you can say anything.

History starts with words being written, that is what history means and is.

Where are the works of the jews in their own writing, where are their creations ?

Even the Talmud is written during this time period close to the 10th century,
maybe I am wrong about 200yrs , bid deal.

You people are jokers, you are definitely a lying jew Santa, everything you do
shows it and proves it. You doing the same shit the lying jew antonio did long
ago. This thread , you knew I would respond to it, it is a troll thread from a troll.

If people here are dumb enough to listen to anything you have to say and not
do their own work they deserve you.

Josephus is the first Jew historian, that was way into AD.

Facts on the Ground.

Plato = West = Christianity

Kahballah = Talmud = Anti West

Follow the occultess goldie and skyvike, with every post this guy reveals himself further.
After I openly confronted goldie she openly began posting about lucifer, lol .

[Santa]

Where are the written works, you are so full of shit it ain't funny, the Jews couldn't
even write the OT in their language, it didn't even exist, just because someone says
it comes from 1000BC, there is no record of it, using that standard you can say anything.

Really? Gosh, you're so smart, Magnes. A real fountain of historical knowledge.

Do you mean besides the OT?


Numerous older tablets have been found in the region with similar scripts written in other Semitic languages, for example Protosinaitic. It is believed that the original shapes of the script go back to Egyptian hieroglyphs, though the phonetic values are instead inspired by the acrophonic principle. The common ancestor of Hebrew and Phoenician is called Canaanite, and was the first to use a Semitic alphabet distinct from Egyptian. One ancient document is the famous Moabite Stone written in the Moabite dialect; the Siloam Inscription, found near Jerusalem, is an early example of Hebrew. Less ancient samples of Archaic Hebrew include the ostraca found near Lachish which describe events preceding the final capture of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonian captivity of 586 BCE.


As far as the Kabbalah goes if that's what you're talking about, I'd guess being part of what's known as mystery religion, was only transmitted orally, like herpes. And I suspect a lot of herpes was going on in those days in ancient Greece.

[sirgonzo420]

This is a response to the following quote by MAGNES in a locked thread:


Quote from: sirgonzo420 on Today at 04:26:50 PM
This is one thing that has held me back from fully respecting the Greek thinkers/philosophers.

Did you bother to read my post at all, the USA is far gayer than the Greeks ever were.
It was not acceptable by society and there even laws on it, death penalty, exclusion from
public office for open homos. There are plays commentary history mythology against it
and even what is said is largely taken out of context and even some scholars don't buy it.
Want references.

Here you are admitting how masonry is kaballah baloney and telling everyone how great Pike is.
The Lucifer worship is no turd in the punch bowl for you. These people you promote are openly
opposed the the West and Plato, you seem to have joined them. Say it ain't so bro.
http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/so-i-bought-a-copy-of-pikes-morals-dogma




I'll agree that the USA is gayer than ancient Greece. But "erastes-eromenos relationships" were common in Greece, and amongst the philosopher crowd, right?

I just have a mental association of ancient Greek philosophers and little-boy-diddling. Sure, my mental association may be in error, but for good or ill it is ingrained, and I may give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the "rumors" aren't true, but it's still somewhere in the back of my mind when I think of the "great thinkers".

Were Greeks who were involved in erastes-eromenos relationships considered to be homosexual? I think the Greeks shunned exclusive homosexuals while embracing "heterosexuals" (more appropriately "bisexuals") who engaged in the pederastic tradition.

Yes, masonry is closely connected to kaballah. I didn't say Pike was great, just that he was interesting. Just because I find someone interesting does not mean I like them or think them to be "great".

And no, "Lucifer worship" isn't NEARLY as much as a "turd in the punchbowl" compared to buggering little boys. I don't have problems with people worshiping "Yahweh"/"Allah" either (who, incidentally, comes off as a selfish, sadistic jerk in the Bible/Koran). People can worship whatever/whoever they please and it bothers me not.

When masons/kaballists speak of Lucifer, it is as the personification of "Light" or "Truth" or "Knowledge". Lucifer to them is not some scaly dude with a pitchfork. Lucifer is just a NAME. It means "light-bearer" in latin.

And don't worry; I haven't joined anybody. I wouldn't join a masonic lodge or anything because I find their secrecy repugnant. I probably know all their secrets already anyway.

[Santa]

This thread , you knew I would respond to it, it is a troll thread from a troll.

Wait... I'm causing you to troll this thread because I'm a troll? :ROFL:

[keehah]

I think much of that article was pulled from this section of David Livingstone's book:

I urge students of the Cabalist Conspiracy to read "The Illuminati and Terrorism: A Three Thousand Year History." Few works offer as much insight into the true character of the world we inhabit. - Henry Makow (http://www.henrymakow.com/002159.html) (2007)


http://www.terrorism-illuminati.com/kabbalah
Plato

Essentially, while the Kabbalah can be traced back to Babylon, it was not there that its initial doctrines were expounded in literary form, but in ancient Greece. Though the Jews were allowed to return to Palestine by Cyrus the Great, no evidence of Jewish literature makes its appearance until the third century AD. Rather, the earliest elaboration of Kabbalistic doctrines takes place in Greece, among the so-called philosophers, and particularly Pythagoras, and later Plato, who has long been regarded as the godfather of this tradition.

The cult Orpheus, known as Orphism, became the basis of the philosophical cult developed by Pythagoras.[10] Accounts of Pythagoras having journeyed to Babylon for his learning are extensive. Through his influence, these ideas were then transmitted to Plato. Therefore, according to Momigliano, in Alien Wisdom, “it was Plato who made Persian wisdom thoroughly fashionable, though the exact place of Plato in the story is ambiguous and paradoxical.”[11] Actually, Plato’s position is not so ambiguous. A scholars and Momigliano are merely troubled that it evident that Plato, who is otherwise considered the example of Greek “rationality”, was evidently immersed in occult thought.

Though Plato is regarded as the greatest philosopher of Western civilization, he is not deserving of that reputation, and only achieved notoriety over the last two hundred and fifty years, through the influence of the Illuminati press, who regard him as the founder of their doctrines. Throughout the centuries, occultists have regarded Plato as the great founder of their agenda, and even Jewish Kabbalists regarded him as an exponent of their ideas. Essentially, while the Kabbalah was incepted in Babylon, it was Plato who first elaborated upon the Zionist principle of world domination, by formulating its vision for a totalitarian state, to be governed by the “Chosen People”, in this case, Kabbalists.

Scholars have entirely failed to recognize the presence of Kabbalistic doctrines in Plato because of their ignorance of the cult of the Magi. Scholars have generally dismissed any such influence, because, in their minds, there is no apparent influence of Zoroastrianism in Greek thought. This is correct. Rather, it was Franz Cumont, the greatest scholar of the twentieth century, and whose significance has yet to be recognized, who established that the Greeks did not come into contact with Zoroastrians, but heretical “Magi”, called Magusseans, who were influenced by Babylonian doctrines.

In antiquity, the reputation of Plato’s purported connection with the Magi was widespread. According to Aristobulus, a third century BC Jewish philosopher, Plato had access to translations of Jewish texts, and therefore, “it is evident that Plato imitated our legislation and that he had investigated thoroughly each of the elements in it... For he was very learned, as was Pythagoras, who transferred many of our doctrines and integrated them into his own beliefs.[12]

Eudoxus of Cnidus, who seems to have acted as head of the Academy during Plato’s absence, traveled to Babylon and Egypt, studying at Heliopolis, where he learned the “priestly wisdom” and astrology. According to Pliny, Eudoxus “wished magic [the cult of the Magi] to be recognized as the most noble and useful of the schools of philosophy.”[13]

In the Laws, Plato proposed astrological idea, about which E. R. Dodds, who is skeptical of the extent of Magian influence on Plato’s thought, is willing to concede that:


...the proposals of the Laws do seem to give the heavenly bodies a religious importance which they lacked in ordinary Greek cult, though there may have been partial precedents in Pythagorean thought and usage. And in the Epinomis, which I am inclined to regard either as Plato’s own work or as put together by his Nachlass (unpublished works), we meet with something that is certainly Oriental, and is frankly presented as such, the proposal for public worship of the planets.[14]

The Epinomis, which is either a work of Plato, or his pupil Philip of Opus, is clearly influenced by the Magi. According to the Epinomis, that science which makes men most wise, is astrology. Astrology, claims the author, proffers man with knowledge of numbers, in other words, numerology, without which man cannot attain to a knowledge of virtue. This knowledge, according to the author, belonged originally to the Egyptians and the Syrians, “from when the knowledge has reached to all countries, including our own, after having been tested by thousands of years and time without end.”

However, the great treatise of Kabbalistic thought in the Greek language is the Timaeus. Like the Epinomis, the Timaeus categorizes the purpose of life as to study astrology. But, it is in the Republic that Plato articulates the need for a totalitarian state to be governed by philosopher-kings, who are to be instructed in this pseudo-science. When asked to provide details about this instruction, in last chapter of The Republic, Plato recounts what is called the Myth of Er. Er, the son of an Asian named Armenius, who died in a war but returned to life to act as a messenger from the other world.

Colotes, a philosopher of the third century BC, accused Plato of plagiarism, maintaining that he substituted Er’s name for that of Zoroaster. Clement of Alexandria and Proclus quote from a work entitled On Nature, attributed to Zoroaster, in which he is equated with Er.[15] Quoting the opening of the work, Clement mentions:


Zoroaster, then, writes: “These things I wrote, I Zoroaster, the son of Armenius, a Pamphylian by birth: having died in battle, and been in Hades, I learned them of the gods.” This Zoroaster, Plato says, having been placed on the funeral pyre, rose again to life in twelve days. He alludes perchance to the resurrection, or perchance to the fact that the path for souls to ascension lies through the twelve signs of the zodiac; and he himself says, that the descending pathway to birth is the same. In the same way we are to understand the twelve labours of Hercules, after which the soul obtains release from this entire world.[16]

The Republic provided the basis for all future Illuminati projects, including the elimination of marriage and the family, compulsory education, the use of eugenics by the state, and the employment of deceptive propaganda methods. According to Plato, “all these women shall be wives in common to all the men, and not one of them shall live privately with any man; the children too should be held in common so that no parent shall know which is his own offspring, and no child shall know his parent.” This belief is associated with a need for eugenics, as “the best men must cohabit with the best women in as many cases as possible and the worst with the worst in the fewest, and that the offspring of the one must be reared and that of the other not, if the flock is to be as perfect as possible.” More pernicious still is his prescription for infanticide: “The offspring of the inferior, and any of those of the other sort who are born defective, they will properly dispose of in secret, so that no one will know what has become of them. That is the condition of preserving the purity of the guardians’ breed.”[17]

Compulsory schooling is to be implemented in order to separate children from their parents, to have them indoctrinated in the ideals of the state:


They [philosopher-kings] will begin by sending out into the country all the inhabitants of the city who are more than ten years old, and will take possession of their children, who will be unaffected by the habits of their parents; these they will train in their own habits and laws, I mean in the laws which we have given them: and in this way the State and constitution of which we were speaking will soonest and most easily attain happiness, and the nation which has such a constitution will gain most.[18]

As for propaganda, according to Plato, “Our rulers will find a considerable dose of falsehood and deceit necessary for the good of their subjects”. He further explains, “Rhetoric … is a producer of persuasion for belief, not for instruction in the matter of right and wrong. And so the rhetorician’s business is not to instruct a law court or a public meeting in matters of right and wrong, but only to make them believe; since, I take it, he could not in a short while instruct such a mass of people in matters so important.”

[Joe King]

You people are jokers, you are definitely a lying jew Santa, everything you do shows it and proves it. You doing the same shit the lying jew antonio did long ago.In my Book, if you're going to call someone a liar out-right, you need to show some proof of it. Otherwise, how do we know that you're not the liar? Hmmmm?



This thread , you knew I would respond to it, it is a troll thread from a troll.So you're saying that Santa controls you? What are you, an elf? lol



If people here are dumb enough to listen to anything you have to say....Pssst....Mags....just thought I'd point out that no one here is listening to anything. It's called reading. lol

[Santa]

Thanks for that article, Keehah.
Here's a little video along those same lines.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE6nnRbX7lc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPDTImZ7ptA
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPDTImZ7ptA)

[DMac]

This is a response to the following quote by MAGNES in a locked thread:



I'll agree that the USA is gayer than ancient Greece. But "erastes-eromenos relationships" were common in Greece, and amongst the philosopher crowd, right?

I just have a mental association of ancient Greek philosophers and little-boy-diddling. Sure, my mental association may be in error, but for good or ill it is ingrained, and I may give them the benefit of the doubt and assume the "rumors" aren't true, but it's still somewhere in the back of my mind when I think of the "great thinkers".

Were Greeks who were involved in erastes-eromenos relationships considered to be homosexual? I think the Greeks shunned exclusive homosexuals while embracing "heterosexuals" (more appropriately "bisexuals") who engaged in the pederastic tradition.



[tangent on]

For someone so drawn to the sexual preferences of the ancients it appears you have not studied this subject much. Men were not wantonly sticking their things up the butts of little boys in ancient Greece.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/homosexuality/


There is also evidence that penetration was often avoided by having the erastes face his beloved and place his penis between the thighs of the eromenos, which is known as intercrural sex.

Face the fact - homosexuality has been around a lot longer than reading and writing and it likely isn't going away anytime soon.

It seems the roots of anti-homosexuality comes from the Hebrews.


http://atheisme.ca/repertoire/lauritsen_john/religious_roots_of_the_taboo_en.html



The history of the taboo is essentially a history of religion. The taboo, as we shall see, is a theological conception of Judeo-Christianity.

Homosexuality flourished throughout the ancient world: among the Scandinavians, Greeks, Celts, Sumerians, and throughout the "Cradle of Civilization", the Tigris-Euphrates Valley, the Nile Valley, and the Mediterranean Basin. The art and literature of these peoples offer testimony to an unhindered acceptance and often exhaltation of same-sex love. At this time, there were not "homosexuals" (as a noun), only homosexual acts. Nowhere is there evidence that anyone was set apart as different from his fellow men, even semantically, because of engaging in homosexual acts.

Where there were people, there were people engaging in same sex love. This was not a wholly Greek thing back then. Keep in mind that the same folks so dead against homosexuality also believed sodomy (head) was just as bad of a sin. Are we going to mock the folks that like to get or give head in the same way you discount the Greeks due to homosexual propaganda?



The antihomosexuality taboo was born among the ancient Hebrews. It first appears in the sayings of reformers in Hellenistic Judaism as they attacked the sexual practices of neighboring fertility Cults.

The ancient Hebrews developed sexual attitudes drastically different from the rest of the world. According to some authorities, the sex-negative orientation developed about 700 BC, following the Babylonian Exile; before this, the Hebrews, like other asiatic peoples, had also allowed homosexuality, including male prostitution as a part of temple worship.

The keynote of Hebrew sexual morality was PRUDISHNESS. The beautiful sculpture of the Greeks and other "heathen" peoples was anathematised as "uncovering of nakedness". Indeed, dozens of Old Testament passages apply exclusively to prohibitions against viewing the unclothed body (e.g. Leviticus 18:6-9). Anxiety on this score became an obsession of pathological degree.

The Hebrews considered themselves the "chosen people" of a jealous and vindictive god, morally superior to their neighbors. They developed a sexual code unlike anything in the ancient world. Mosaic law made thirty-six crimes punishable by death; one-half (18) involved sexual relationships of one kind or another.

For two men who made love to each other, the law stated: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13)

The penalty for males guilty of homosexual acts was death by stoning, the most severe penalty. Adulterers, in contrast, were put to death by the more humane method of strangulation.

There was no prohibition against female homosexuality per se. In consequence, for the nearly three millenia following, it was almost always male homosexuality but not female homosexuality that was outlawed. The taboo on homosexuality is a taboo on male homosexuality.

Rigid sex-roles were imposed for both men and women, including a ban on transvestitism; "The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abominations unto the Lord thy God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)

The Hebrews came to associate homosexual practices entirely with foreign customs. They referred to the "way of the Canaanite" or the "way of the heathen" rather than name practices which in time became unnameable. To them, the Sodom and Gomorrah story vividly illustrated the wrath of Yahweh against an alien people for their alien practices.

Whenever a conversation is brought up about the ancient Greeks Gonzo, you seem to always play the pederast card. Why is that?

Lover's Legends: The Gay Greek Myths (http://www.assemblage.group.shef.ac.uk/issue7/matthews.html)


The study of male homosexuality in Ancient Greece only began in the 1970s,

No one seems to have a problem with Sappho and the Island of Lesbos >:D :p

In most of the ancient world, almost all of the people (Hebrews possibly the only provable exemption) practiced love. There was no distinction between the love of men and the love of women. Love was part of an appreciation of beauty - aphrodisia.

http://www.livius.org/ho-hz/homosexuality/homosexuality.html


The French social critic and philosopher Michel Foucault (1926-1984) has asked whether our modern concept, which presupposes a psychological quality or a proclivity/identity, can be used to describe the situation in ancient Athens. Foucault's often-quoted answer is in the negative, because he assumes that the early nineteenth century was a discontinuity with the preceding history. And it is true: the Jewish and Christian attitudes and obsessions have never played a role in the sexual lives of the ancient Greeks. In their eyes, it was not despicable when a married man had affairs with boys, although the Athenians expected a man to have children -especially sons- with his lawful wife. The Athenian man was, according to Foucault, a macho, a penetrator, the one who forced others to do what he wanted them to do.

This view now seems outdated. Not all Athenian women have been passive and not all men were dominant. Prostitution, which was an important aspect of Athenian life, had little to do with male dominance; nor was -and this is important- Greek homosexuality restricted to pederastry between a dominant adult and a shy boy.


It was certainly shameful when a man with a beard remained the passive partner (pathikos) and it was even worse when a man allowed himself to be penetrated by another grown-up man. The Greeks even had a pejorative expression for these people, whom were called kinaidoi. They were the targets of ridicule by the other citizens, especially comedy writers. For example, Aristophanes (c.445-c.380) shows them dressed like women, with a bra, a wig and a gown, and calls them euryprôktoi, "wide arses".

Ancient porn:

Another objection to the traditional reconstruction of Athenian homosexuality is that there is simply no evidence that the presents shown on vases had any pedagogic or didactic value. They are just meant to seduce.

___________________

Personally, I think (as usual) various agendas direct and confuse the subject. Folks wishing to prove it was rampant and horrible will find evidence to skew in their favor. Folks wishing to prove it was taken out of context or misunderstood, will find evidence to skew in their favor.

Ancient people did a lot of messed up things. I think it is foolish to focus solely on their mistakes and miss out on the pearls of wisdom they tried to impart on us future generations.

[tangent off]

[Awoke]

Tag for later reading

[Santa]

For someone so drawn to the sexual preferences of the ancients it appears you have not studied this subject much. Men were not wantonly sticking their things up the butts of little boys in ancient Greece.

It seems the roots of anti-homosexuality comes from the Hebrews. Lol DMac, are you actually attempting to imply that SirGonz is a Heeb because he finds pederasty disgusting?

It's early, man. Maybe you aren't awake yet? Or maybe I'm not? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

[DMac]

Lol DMac, are you actually attempting to imply that SirGonz is a Heeb because he finds pederasty disgusting?

It's early, man. Maybe you aren't awake yet? Or maybe I'm not? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

::)

If I wanted to imply SirGonzo is a 'heeb' I would not meander around it, I would state it as such.

[Santa]

::)

If I wanted to imply SirGonzo is a 'heeb' I would not meander around it, I would state it as such.

Then what was your point? Was it only to say that the ancient Greeks were not alone in practicing pederasty?

Of course not. I can't imagine anyone thinking the ancient Greeks were the only ones to "love" little boys. That would be ignorant. Contemporary Greeks obviously have weird ass relations with little boys as well. ;D

You aren't Greek by any chance, are you? :-* Ahahahaha...

Anyway, kidding aside, before Astrology based religious memes, there were fertility based memes.

That is to say, people worshiped and practiced sexuality in Life.

In those early days astrology was probably considered to be a much more urbane and dignified preoccupation than, oh, I don't know, eating shrooms and having orgies in forest glades.

Sounds fun, but I was pretty much ruined to its charms early on with my puritanical Germanic Calvinist type upbringing.

I'm way too self conscious to be a great, or even a good lover, and I can't even imagine boys or men as sexual partners. Blech! NOT! :-X

But hey, whatever. I prefer women. If that was due to OT influence, I really can't help it. The conditioning is complete.

[DMac]

If you can't grasp the point of my post then don't bother reading it. It was directed at SirGonzo. I don't think he felt it accusatory or defaming (probably why he thanked it).

But santa, thanks for giving us some details on your lack of confidence in the bedroom. It helps create a better picture of your personality and explain the aggression you've shown in your past 2 posts.

[keehah]

If you can't grasp the point of my post then don't bother reading it.
Your trolling my thread to make me feel the same way right now DMac. Perhaps you should stick to posting in the Thunderdome today.

[Book]

Wait...I'm a troll?



1305

::)

[Book]

::)

If I wanted to imply SirGonzo is a 'heeb' I would not meander around it, I would state it as such.



Gonzo has already posted about his Hebrew language skills. Who else knows and studies Hebrew?


::) three resident gsus hebes in this thread as usual now slandering Magnes and the Greeks...lol.

[sirgonzo420]

Gonzo has already posted about his Hebrew language skills. Who else knows and studies Hebrew?


::) three resident gsus hebes in this thread as usual now slandering Magnes and the Greeks...lol.


Some of us happen to be literate. Sometimes in more than one tongue. My french is a hell of a lot better than my hebrew, why am I so evil because I can recognize the sounds of hebrew characters, and *sometimes* know what the word means? Ever read 'The Art of War'? Why must I be a jew to pick up any hebrew at all? Do you think whites are too stupid to learn other languages?

I can make out some olde englisc too. And a bit of latin and greek. Should I stop learning sanskrit?

Pictures are easy and fun though! Keep 'em comin'!



;D

[Book]

Some of us happen to be literate.



http://farm1.static.flickr.com/242/524314060_fd3a809224.jpg

Your parents must be very proud Gonzo. We can see it in their eyes.

;)

[Santa]

1305

::)

Hey Book, cool, you're back... Yeah, woohoo!. 8) So how are your best buddies, Scorpio and Skyvike doing these days?
Do you guys shower at the same Gym together too? Not that that's any of my business or anything. ;D
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac358/jackconrad/junk/file-2.jpg

[Santa]

If you can't grasp the point of my post then don't bother reading it. It was directed at SirGonzo. I don't think he felt it accusatory or defaming (probably why he thanked it).

But santa, thanks for giving us some details on your lack of confidence in the bedroom. It helps create a better picture of your personality and explain the aggression you've shown in your past 2 posts.

You're welcome. Although, if you took my post as aggression, you're mistaken. Poking fun, yes. Aggression, no.
I'm sure you can handle a little ribbing.

But I honestly don't know what your point was. Maybe you could tighten it up for me? :)

[sirgonzo420]

If you can't grasp the point of my post then don't bother reading it. It was directed at SirGonzo. I don't think he felt it accusatory or defaming (probably why he thanked it).

But santa, thanks for giving us some details on your lack of confidence in the bedroom. It helps create a better picture of your personality and explain the aggression you've shown in your past 2 posts.

I wasn't sure why you mentioned the hebrews being anti-homosexual... it seemed like you *may* have been implying that I am a jew, but I appreciate your fairly considerable research (at least compared to my own) into the subject. You are correct in that I haven't spent a tremendous amount of time studying ancient greek sexuality. I have simply emcountered homoerotic overtones and undertones in some of the ancient greek writings and have not particularly cared for the gayness. Other than that, much of the work of the ancient greeks is absolutely fabulous (pardon the 'pun').

Also, I implore you to leave Santa alone, lest you end up on the "naughty list". ;D

[JDRock]

Hey Book, cool, you're back... Yeah, woohoo!. 8) So how are your best buddies, Scorpio and Skyvike doing these days?
Do you guys shower at the same Gym together too? Not that that's any of my business or anything. ;D
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac358/jackconrad/junk/file-2.jpg

holy sheeeeot! how the mighty have fallen! = (

[Book]

Do you guys shower at the same Gym together too?



http://www.jewishlights.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/1624.jpg

Apparently not as much into fitness as you three here...lol.

::)

[Horn]

Hey Book, cool, you're back... Yeah, woohoo!. 8) So how are your best buddies, Scorpio and Skyvike doing these days?
Do you guys shower at the same Gym together too? Not that that's any of my business or anything. ;D
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac358/jackconrad/junk/file-2.jpg

http://www.emotty.com/images/emoticons/959.png

[Buddha]

Hey Book, cool, you're back... Yeah, woohoo!. 8) So how are your best buddies, Scorpio and Skyvike doing these days?
Do you guys shower at the same Gym together too? Not that that's any of my business or anything. ;D
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac358/jackconrad/junk/file-2.jpg

http://www.jewishbookcenter.com/images/products/detail/jewishbookofwhy.jpg

[Book]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_szMrFn4tHE8/R_qg80po4-I/AAAAAAAAAgs/Q1Qh5-orRBA/S240/buddhists_sm3.gif

::)

[MAGNES]

Notice Gonzo with his comments on Homo's, speaking specifically in response to Plato.

The Greeks and Romans had laws against Homos, the Greeks had very serious ones.
I documented some of this in a thread once as a refutation to a smear, but I don't care,
people can believe whatever they want to believe, Greeks left a big record, lots to make fun of.

There is a thread linked above, it is must reading, quotes, links,

Albert Pike and the Masons, Plato is their total anti thesis . That is a fact.

Plato can be summed up in a few words, Justice , The Moral State,
The Republic " is the West " Scholars/Historians, Plato is easily taken
out of context by dishonest people, there are discussions, the process
is the education, teaching you to think question, rhetoric, etc, this is what
Socrates was known for, asking too many questions , it got him killed, this
is why Plato writes, Plato sets up societies for discussion, a few, he
openly states, " I will be killed ", he destroys his own setup.

The lesson is to think and question for yourselves, and to be involved,
the idiots, " idiotes " literally translates to apathetic, if we are apathetic
we are doomed, corrupt will rule us.

And remember Plato's Cave, the allegory, we have been all doing that on here even.

[sirgonzo420]

I don't have a problem with Plato.

I don't know for a fact if he diddled boys or not, but if he did, that's gay.


Wasn't Plato like a "sacred geometry" pioneer? I don't know a lot about it.

[MAGNES]

Wasn't Plato like a "sacred geometry" pioneer? I don't know a lot about it.

I had an email conversation with skyvike, back and forth, after he banned me
as Masonic Nation and put up a bubbly kisses avatar to me, we talked history,
he told me how he appreciates Plato the Mathematician, I died laughing reading
his response, for real, typical fucking mason, that is not what Plato is known for.

I told you what he is known for.

I ain't here to split atoms.

This is a freedom forum.

I would also like to add, all of you whether you like it or not are Greeks,
all of you whether you like it or not, your forefather is Plato, and you are
whether you like it, know it , or not, sons of Apollo and Constantine.
I baited skyvike with that, he took the bait, we are all sons of Apollo,
speaking metaphorically, and literally sons of Constantine.

These are facts, and if you don't think so , read my signature.

That is my loon post, to go along with my loon poem on here people missed, lol .
The looniest part is how true what I am saying is.

Once I had a classics prof, he called himself the Crazy Kelt, I thought so too, wtf are you talking about . LOL

[sirgonzo420]

I had an email conversation with skyvike, back and forth, after he banned me
as Masonic Nation and put up a bubbly kisses avatar to me, we talked history,
he told me how he appreciates Plato the Mathematician, I died laughing reading
his response, for real, typical fucking mason, that is not what Plato is know for.

I told you what he is known for.

I ain't here to split atoms.

This is a freedom forum.

I just mentioned the geometry stuff because I've heard of "Platonic Solids".


Here's some history:


Plato, an initiate himself (as Socrates was before him) mentions the Mysteries specifically in his famous dialogue on the immortality of the soul, the Phaedo, " our mysteries had a very real meaning: he that has been purified and initiated shall dwell with the gods" (69:d, F.J. Church trans). Plutarch, writing to his wife on the death of their daughter, says, "because of those sacred and faithful promises given in the mysteries...we hold it firmly for an undoubted truth that our soul is incorruptible and immortal. Let us behave ourselves accordingly"(Hamilton, 179). And, says further, "When a man dies he is like those who are initiated into the mysteries. Our whole life is a journey by tortuous ways without outlet. At the moment of qutting it come terrors, shuddering fear, amazement. Then a light that moves to meet you, pure meadows that receive you, songs and dances and holy apparations" (Hamilton, 179). Cicero writes, "Nothing is higher than these mysteries...they have not only shown us how to live joyfully but they have taught us how to die with a better hope" and the historian Durant states of the mysteries, "In this ecstasy of revelation...they felt the unity of God, and the oneness of God and the soul; they were lifted up out of the delusion of individuality and knew the peace of absorbtion into deity" (Durant, 189).Waverly Fitzgerald sums the experience up clearly with, "It was said of those who were initiated at Eleusis that they no longer feared death and it seems that this myth confirms the cyclical view of life central to pagan spirituality: that death is part of the cycle of life and is always followed by rebith."

[MAGNES]

I just mentioned the geometry stuff because I've heard of "Platonic Solids".
Here's some history:

How about some Platonic Love.

You ever heard of that, probably not.

[Joe King]

I would also like to add, all of you whether you like it or not are Greeks, all of you whether you like it or not, your forefather is Plato,

What happened to the decendants of all the other people alive in his day?
Or was Plato the only one back then who ever had pro-creative sex?

[sirgonzo420]

How about some Platonic Love.

You ever heard of that, probably not.

I love you too Magnes!

I'd love you even more after a good discussion with you about Ελευσίνα.

[MAGNES]

Just to highlight the links above, some previous discussion and background with links quotes, etc.

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?44682-So-I-bought-a-copy-of-Pike-s-Morals-amp-Dogma....

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?44682-So-I-bought-a-copy-of-Pike-s-Morals-amp-Dogma....&p=379557&viewfull=1#post379557

http://i53.tinypic.com/290vvhf.jpg

[sirgonzo420]

Wanna talk about Eleusis now?


Do you deny that Plato and Socrates took part in the Mysteries?

[keehah]

Globe and Mail Saturday, Oct. 08, 2011 (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/opinion/waiting-for-the-next-russian-revolution/article2194814/)

Vladimir Putin recently emerged from the Black Sea, in a wetsuit, carrying two Ancient Greek vases. “The boys and I found them,” the vacationing Prime Minister said of these treasures from the birthplace of democracy.

Video: Putin's dive treasure find was staged (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/video/video-putins-dive-treasure-find-was-staged/article2192681/?from=2194814)

[Santa]

Some suggest Plato was not an initiate. Others say he was.


The Eleusinian Mysteries


Three thousand years ago in ancient Greece a mass religious event took place every year in which a sacred brew was drunk by initiates in a ritual setting.
"Blessed is he who, having seen these rites,
undertakes the way beneath the Earth.
He knows the end of life,
as well as its divinely granted beginning."
Pindar

The Mysteries were celebrated at Eleusis, from around 1500 BCE to the fourth century CE, in honour of the goddess Demeter and her daughter Persephone. After Persephone's abduction by Hades, god of the underworld, Demeter left Olympus and vowed never to return, nor to allow crops to grow on earth until she and her daughter were reunited. Demeter found refuge in the palace of the king of Eleusis, Keleos, and as a mark of gratitude, she founded a temple there. Fearing that humankind would become extinct without food, Zeus ordered that Persephone be returned so that Demeter would also go back. Before Demeter returned to Olympus she instructed the kings of Eleusis, Keleos and Triptolemus on how to celebrate the rites in her temple, which were to be 'Mysteries' (secret teachings).
Up to three thousand people were initiated each year - any Greek-speaking person who had not committed a murder could present themselves once for initiation. Among those underwent the rite were Aristotle, Sophocles, Plato, Cicero and a number of Roman emperors such as Hadrian and Marcus Aurelius. The celebration of the Mysteries began in the autumn, with four days of rites and festivities in Athens. On the fifth day, a solemn procession to Eleusis began, during which rites, sacrifices and purifications took place. On the sixth night, cloaked in secrecy, the climax of the Eleusinian ceremony took place in the inner sanctum of the temple, into which only priests and initiates could enter,.
"The initiates often experienced in vision the congruity of the beginning and the end, of birth and death, the totality and the eternal generative ground of being. It must have been an encounter with the ineffable, an encounter with the divine..." (1)
Before the climax of the initiation, a sacred potion made of barley and mint and called the kykeon was administered. The possible psychoactive ingredients in kykeon have been hotly debated. It has been suggested that the mint in the mixture might have provided the mind-altering element as the mint family contains the plant Salvia divinorum, used by the Mazatec Indians of Mexico in a divinatory context. Terence McKenna has suggested that Stropharia cubensis, or another psilocybin- containing mushroom, might be the key.
The most convincing theory about the nature of kykeon, results from extensive research by Gordon Wasson, Albert Hofmann and Carl Ruck. In 'The Road to Eleusis' (2) they argue that the parasitic fungus ergot, found on particular wild grasses, is the psychoactive component of kykeon. It would have been simple for an Eleusinian priest to collect the ergot from the wild grass growing near to the temple, grind it into a powder and add it to the kykeon. The theory is further supported by the fact that ergot is commonly found on grain, Demeter was the goddess of grain, and ears of grain featured prominently in the ritual.
LSD is a modern product of ergot, providing an intriguing link between the Greek religious rituals of many thousand of years ago, and today's entheogenic explorations.
As Albert Hofmann - inventor of LSD and investigator of the Eleusinian Mysteries - puts it:
"If the hypothesis that an LSD-like consciousness-altering drug was present in the kykeon is correct - and there are good arguments in its favour - then the Eleusinian Mysteries have a relevance for our time in not only a spiritual-existential sense, but also with respect to the question of the controversial use of consciousness-altering compounds to attain mystical insights into the riddle of life"

[sirgonzo420]

Some suggest Plato was not an initiate. Others say he was.

I think that in ancient Greece, "anybody who was anybody" participated in or was familiar with the Mysteries.

Here's something from Cicero:


"For among the many excellent and indeed divine institutions which your Athens has brought forth and contributed to human life, none, in my opinion, is better than those mysteries. For by their means we have been brought out of our barbarous and savage mode of life and educated and refined to a state of civilization; and as the rites are called 'initiations,' so in very truth we have learned from them the beginnings of life, and have gained the power not only to live happily, but also to die with a better hope," Cicero, Laws II, xiv, 36.

Here's Sophocles:


“Thrice blessed are those mortals who see these mysteries …”

And here's Plato:


"the ultimate design of the Mysteries … was to lead us back to the principles from which we descended, … a perfect enjoyment of intellectual [spiritual] good.

[Santa]

Plato was a follower of the Cult of Pythagoras.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6IvjwZA_NA

[Santa]

Pythagoras by Bertrand Russell


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMzB5arnD8c


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZydtBxcp45s
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZydtBxcp45s)

[DMac]

I think Kennedy has an interesting theory but one that does not, ultimately, hold water. Was Plato influenced by Pythagoras? Absolutely. To call him a follower of a "Cult of Pythagoras" is a catchy headline that will help him sell books but there is no proof offered within.

Kennedy says that Plato's writing was using a hidden code using musical structure around what he claims is an arithmetic progression, Pythagorean scale of 12. This is an awful harmony if you attempt to create a scale from it.

Pythagoras used a 3:2 ratio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagorean_tuning - the same system used in most western music. The same system used by the Greeks, a scale of 8.

A 12 scale of arithmetic progression would include a lot of large prime numbers, whose ratios do not make for good music.

If Plato was using this 12 scale (which I do not think so), it actually helps disprove that he was a member of a "Cult of Pythagoras". Pythagoras explicitly discusses the beauty of the 3:2 ratio in music.

[sirgonzo420]

Bumpity Bumpity bump.

[Horn]

Bumpity Bumpity bump.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1rUe8SK0ak

[Neuro]

Interesting thread! Don't know how I could have missed it. I think if Plato's main message was one of Justice and Morality, as Magned claims. I think that then it is impossible that he was influenced by some orally passed on Kabbalah. And even if he was to a small extent influenced, there really isn't much of evidence, since Kaballah wasn't written down. It could very well be the opposite (which I find more likely), that the Kaballah was influenced, by ancient Greek/Egyptian mysticism, or even by parts of Plato, since it wasn't written down until 300 AD...

Btw, Books brown nose quote from GIM2 was hilarious!

[Horn]

Plato did the most to bring us awareness of Atlantis?

Stick a communicative Z in there, and you have Aztlan.


He had heard of Aztatlan, but sadly many of his people have forgotten it during the years. He sent 60 wise men to find Aztatlan. Supposely, while they were searching, they encountered a supernatural being which transformed them into birds which they flew to Aztlan.

http://www.freewebs.com/tecpaocelotl/aztlan.htm

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Stick a communicative Z in there, and you have Aztlan.



http://www.freewebs.com/tecpaocelotl/aztlan.htm


Atlantis stems from Atlas, the first born of Poseidon and the mortal woman Cleto. Atlas passed down the kingdom to the first born of subsequent generations until their virtue was lost and Atlantis was destroyed in the deluge.

We'll never know the whole story since Plato's dialogue Critias is mysteriously lost forever.

[Horn]

Socrates: You have to imagine, then, that there are two ruling powers, and that one of them is set over the intellectual world, the other over the visible. I do not say heaven, lest you should fancy that I am playing upon the name ("ourhanoz, orhatoz"). May I suppose that you have this distinction of the visible and intelligible fixed in your mind?...


Glaucon: I understand you; not perfectly, for you seem to me to be describing a task which is really tremendous; but, at any rate, I understand you to say that knowledge and being, which the science of dialectic contemplates, are clearer than the notions of the arts, as they are termed, which proceed from hypotheses only: these are also contemplated by the understanding, and not by the senses: yet, because they start from hypotheses and do not ascend to a principle, those who contemplate them appear to you not to exercise the higher reason upon them, although when a first principle is added to them they are cognizable by the higher reason. And the habit which is concerned with geometry and the cognate sciences I suppose that you would term understanding and not reason, as being intermediate between opinion and reason.



http://www.john-uebersax.com/plato/plato1.htm

[dys]

I have a question for Magnes.
This is not a baiting question, I'm not looking to provoke you. I am genuinely curious.

Why do you get so fired up about Plato? Why do you feel that he was such an important historical figure? I don't know whether he was a Mason or not. One of these days I'll read everything that you wrote about him, read everything that the opposition has written about him, and read and reread a bunch of stuff he has written. But truthfully, it seems like a huge investment to make when I've never understood the importance of it all.

dys

[DMac]

I have a question for Magnes.
This is not a baiting question, I'm not looking to provoke you. I am genuinely curious.

Why do you get so fired up about Plato? Why do you feel that he was such an important historical figure? I don't know whether he was a Mason or not. One of these days I'll read everything that you wrote about him, read everything that the opposition has written about him, and read and reread a bunch of stuff he has written. But truthfully, it seems like a huge investment to make when I've never understood the importance of it all.

dys


Plato is considered the father of Western Philosophy. Through his thoughts and teaching of Aristotle we have the general thought process and culture we live in today (the West). He made many sound arguments philosophers to this day are still trying to elaborate on, refute or analyze. His theological arguments are generally accepted as the earliest, soundest explanation for dualism (the physical world vs the ideal world). This notion of dualism had a profound impact of Christianity, Judaism and Islam. He was one of the first to discuss, with strong argument, how living without virtue will lead to a degenerate society.

Plato (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato/)


Plato (429–347 B.C.E.) is, by any reckoning, one of the most dazzling writers in the Western literary tradition and one of the most penetrating, wide-ranging, and influential authors in the history of philosophy. An Athenian citizen of high status, he displays in his works his absorption in the political events and intellectual movements of his time, but the questions he raises are so profound and the strategies he uses for tackling them so richly suggestive and provocative that educated readers of nearly every period have in some way been influenced by him, and in practically every age there have been philosophers who count themselves Platonists in some important respects. He was not the first thinker or writer to whom the word “philosopher” should be applied. But he was so self-conscious about how philosophy should be conceived, and what its scope and ambitions properly are, and he so transformed the intellectual currents with which he grappled, that the subject of philosophy, as it is often conceived—a rigorous and systematic examination of ethical, political, metaphysical, and epistemological issues, armed with a distinctive method—can be called his invention. Few other authors in the history of philosophy approximate him in depth and range: perhaps only Aristotle (who studied with him), Aquinas, and Kant would be generally agreed to be of the same rank.

[Horn]

how living without virtue will lead to a degenerate society.

Which leads us to the pretend clouds & virtual pyramids created & tried to be "shared" by 3 points (persona) or more of a society.

Realworld & individual virtue (more often than not) being difficult enough to pinpoint & redeem in the dialect of two.

http://www.indigochiangmai.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/3kings.jpg

http://www.indigochiangmai.com/wordpress/?p=370