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Ares
31st March 2011, 01:04 PM
<img src="http://mjcdn.motherjones.com/preset_12/gold-gold-gold.jpg"/>

After three decades of railing against America's monetary policies, Congress' most famous gold bug and anti-Fed crusader, Rep. Ron Paul (R-Texas), doesn't have much to show for his efforts on the national level.

But Paul's message finally seems to be gaining traction outside Washington. Since the beginning of 2009, lawmakers in more than a dozen states, with the backing of conservative organizations like the Tenth Amendment Center and the American Principles Project, have introduced bills promoting the use of gold and silver currency for everything from buying groceries to paying taxes. Last week, Utah became the first state to enact such legislation, declaring gold and silver coins from the US mint legal tender, and creating a commission to study the efficacy of this move.

Other proposals, in Georgia and Iowa, would mandate that all state taxes be paid in gold and silver. In Montana, a "sound money" bill that would have required all taxes on cigarettes and tobacco products be paid in precious metals was narrowly defeated on Monday.

Some supporters hope the movement will succeed where Paul's efforts have fallen short—by bringing down the Federal Reserve system from the bottom up.

"It's much more difficult to be lobbying against one bill than it is against 50 bills," says Bill Greene, a conservative activist and political consultant whose sample legislation has served as a foundation for a bill that's currently before the Georgia legislature. "As soon as one state passes a sound money bill, that state is going to reap the most benefits first. That'll open the floodgates and get the ball rolling and more and more states wanting to do it."

Supporters of a hard-money bills argue that they're simply putting their governments back in compliance with the law of the land. They cite a section of the Constitution stipulating that nothing but gold and silver would be considered "a tender in Payment of Debts." (The gold standard was officially abandoned in 1971.)

"I kind of remember one day I was sitting in my chair, I'd been reading something about [monetary policy], and I pulled out my iPhone, pulled up the copy of the Constitution I keep on there, and pulled up Article 1, Section 10," says Larry Hilton, a Utah insurance lawyer who drafted his state's law and set up an organization, Utah Sound Money, to promote it. "And I thought, 'That's very interesting!'"

Bills like the one passed in Utah pose a direct challenge to the authority of the Federal Reserve, whose mission is "maintaining the stability of the financial system." To that end, the Fed controls the flow of specie, pumping more dollars into circulation as the economic climate dictates. States do not have the power to make their own currency—although a few of the bills argue that, in the event of a catastrophe, that authority would fall to the states as a "police power" to ensure security. For the most part, the new gold legislation authorizes the use of specific federally minted coins (pre-1985 Golden Eagles, for instance) whose prices are currently fixed.

None of the bills would replace paper money with gold and silver outright. After all, you'd still need the dollar to pay your federal taxes. But by introducing competing currencies, or at least taking steps in that direction, proponents believe that citizens and businesses will flock to the state to take advantage of the purportedly more secure hard money. In one fell swoop, the state would create a bulwark against inflation and establish itself as sound money mecca—"preparedness and prosperity," as Hilton puts it.

And not a moment too soon. Paul's disciples at the state level believe that unless swift action is taken, the value of the dollar will collapse, and the nation's economy will spiral into hyperinflation. Supporters point to Weimar Germany and Zimbabwe—which, until 2009, printed 100 trillion dollar notes—as examples of what a future United States might look like.

"It's kind of like if you think back to the Katrina catastrophe, and you read about all the proposals that were made to strengthen and secure the levies that were just never done," says Hilton. "I look at this as a major financial tsunami that's about to hit the United States. The implosion of a financial system is much more devastating to human well being than even a severe natural disaster."

"It could be as early as five months, it could be as late as five years," says North Carolina Republican state Rep. Glen Bradley, whose own legislation to make gold and silver legal tender has stalled in the state legislature. Bradley, a veteran of Paul's 2008 presidential campaign, is not convinced America's future inflationary spiral will hit Weimar levels, but he's not dismissing it out of hand, either.

The practical details haven't been fleshed out, but proponents of the measures suggest that the government establish depositories across the state to securely house the metals, and then enable private banks to set up corresponding electronic currencies. Rather than dropping by Gringotts Wizarding Bank anytime you needed to buy a gallon of milk, you could just use your Bank of America gold debit card.

E-currency or no e-currency, though, the anti-Fed camp is likely to face serious opposition. For one thing, the value of an ounce gold hasn't exactly been stationary for the last three decades; even with the recent spurt of goldbuggery, the metal still hasn't fully rebounded to the levels it reached in the early '80s. For another thing, gold isn't exactly immune from economic crises, either. The Great Depression began when the United States was still under the gold standard, and there's compelling evidence to suggest that it lasted longer and did more damage precisely because of the inflexibility of the monetary system.

Even the basic contention among Paul supporters that gold and silver hold a unique spot in global monetary history, is subject to debate.

"Why should we stop with the gold standard?" asks University of California–Berkeley economist Barry Eichengreen, who's written a book about the role of the gold standard in the Great Depression. "If you go back in American history, once upon a time in North Carolina tobacco was legal tender, and you could pay your taxes with the tobacco crop. Or we could go back further and make wampum legal tender. All of these ideas make equal amounts of sense in my view."

North Carolina State University economist Michael Walden, meanwhile, takes issue with the strategy of the bill's backers. States that act unilaterally will be at a "competitive disadvantage," he says, because any business that comes to the state will be forced to deal with gold. "These issues are certainly worthy of debate, but the place to debate them is on the federal level."

There are also legal questions involved. Last week, a federal grand jury in North Carolina convicted a Honolulu man, Bernard von Nothaus, of committing "conspiracy against the United States" by minting gold liberty dollars with Ron Paul's image on them. Greene fears that his challenge to the government's monetary policy could likewise end up in court.

In other words, Ron Paul's revenge might just have to wait a little while longer.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/03/gop-new-gold-rush

Sparky
31st March 2011, 02:46 PM
Why would you spend your gold and silver while they are still accepting fiat paper? It's interesting to note that some of the proposals would require the use of PMs to buy some items, like tobacco. Now there's an interesting twist. Not sure if I would like that if I were a smoker.

How would you feel if all food purchases required PM? You'd have to start spending your stash. But then you'd immediately try to replace it. The extra cost to you would be the premium charged.

Let's say I buy a bag of groceries for $37.50. I pay with a silver ounce. The grocer gets my ounce at spot price. I've got to go pay $39 to replace it. This would be a boon for PM dealers. It would also drive up the price of PMs as people scramble to purchase it to buy food.

But then what do the grocers do with the silver? They can't accumulate it because it would be part of their cash flow. They'd have to sell it to dealers to convert it back to spendable dollars. Another win for the dealers!

Interesting thought exercise.

chad
31st March 2011, 02:49 PM
exactly. i bought $100 worth of preps at walmart today. why would i give them 3 ounces of silver when they took a piece of paper instead?

tekrunner
31st March 2011, 03:10 PM
Beware calls for a gold or silver backed currency. TPTB have most of it already.

TheNocturnalEgyptian
31st March 2011, 03:17 PM
I'm with tekrunner on this one. While Silver and Gold are great stores of wealth, any sort of system which forces the masses back onto gold and silver is just going to be manipulation mayhem. TPTB have cornered the physical market and won't let go.

There will be a new currency. Personally I'd like to see our energy go towards helping design it so that it works. Gold and Silver would have been fine if we had never left the standard, but TPTB have had way too many years to trade their own paper for gold. It'll end up screwing us if we adopt it as our primary system.

Serpo
31st March 2011, 03:34 PM
I'm with tekrunner on this one. While Silver and Gold are great stores of wealth, any sort of system which forces the masses back onto gold and silver is just going to be manipulation mayhem. TPTB have cornered the physical market and won't let go.

There will be a new currency. Personally I'd like to see our energy go towards helping design it so that it works. Gold and Silver would have been fine if we had never left the standard, but TPTB have had way too many years to trade their own paper for gold. It'll end up screwing us if we adopt it as our primary system.


Could of been the plan all along going off the standard..............buy gold with newly printed cash

Sparky
31st March 2011, 05:29 PM
I'm with tekrunner on this one. While Silver and Gold are great stores of wealth, any sort of system which forces the masses back onto gold and silver is just going to be manipulation mayhem. TPTB have cornered the physical market and won't let go.

There will be a new currency. Personally I'd like to see our energy go towards helping design it so that it works. Gold and Silver would have been fine if we had never left the standard, but TPTB have had way too many years to trade their own paper for gold. It'll end up screwing us if we adopt it as our primary system.


But, they've also cornered the fiat market, which is limitless and well-accepted by consumers, and remains the international go-to currency. Why would they mess up such a good thing?

po boy
31st March 2011, 07:13 PM
Here's the legislation. I don't think this is good for anyone except the state and the IRS. Key words highlighted.


The Utah Sound Money Act

To amend Title 7 of the Utah Code Annotated, relating to financial institutions, so as to provide a short title; to authorize gold and silver coin as legal tender for payment of debts within the course and scope of Utah intrastate commerce; and to authorize the formation and operation of coin depositories.

BE IT ENACTED BY THE UTAH STATE LEGISLATURE:

SECTION 1.

Title 7 of the Utah Code Annotated, relating to financial institutions, is amended by adding a new chapter to read as follows:

CHAPTER 25

7-25-1. Short Title.

This Chapter is known and may be cited as "The Utah Sound Money Act."
7-25-2. Authorization of Specie Currency.

1. The following coinage (hereinafter referred to as "specie currency") described in the United States Internal Revenue Code sections referenced below (as existing on the date of this Chapter's enactment) constitute authorized legal tender for payment of debts within the course and scope of Utah intrastate commerce:
1. The United States gold and silver coinage described in Title 26 of the United States Code, §408(m)(3)(A)(i) and §408(m)(3)(A)(ii);
2. The state gold and silver coinage described in Title 26 of the United States Code, §408(m)(3)(A)(iv) which is authorized for issuance into Utah intrastate commerce pursuant to Subsection (4), below (hereinafter referred to as "Utah specie currency"); and
3. The foreign gold and silver coinage described in Title 26 of the United States Code §408(m)(3)(B).
2. Specie currency shall be denominated in troy ounce and grain monetary units, there being 480 troy grains contained in one troy ounce.
3. As legal tender money, specie currency shall not be characterized as personal property for taxation or regulatory purposes.
4. Utah specie currency shall only be issued or reissued into intrastate circulation by an authorized coin depository which, prior to such issuance, shall have inspected, assayed and approved each coin as being in conformity with the following criteria:
1. Each coin shall have a millesimal gold or silver fineness of no less than 850.
2. On the obverse side of each coin the year of production shall be clearly visible. The mint mark of the manufacturer shall be visible on the obverse side as well.
3. On the reverse side, the coin's precious metal content in troy ounces shall be clearly written and the corresponding number of troy grains shall be prominently displayed as an integer. In addition, the words "Utah Legal Tender" shall be inscribed on this side.
4. No coin shall bear any dollar denomination nor any resemblance whatsoever to the current or prior coin of the United States.
5. Every coin shall conform to all other designs and specifications adopted by the Utah Coinage Advisory Council which shall be composed of one representative from each of the following groups:
1. The Utah Arts Council;
2. The Utah Bar Association;
3. The Utah Banker's Association;
4. The Salt Lake Chamber of Commerce; and
5. The Utah Chapter of the American Numismatic Association.
6. Only one design for each denomination of gold Utah specie currency and one for each denomination of silver Utah specie currency shall be authorized for production in any given calendar year.
5. No person shall have the right to compel any other person to tender or to accept specie currency en lieu of United States dollars unless such person has previously agreed in writing to do so or as otherwise provided in this Chapter.
6. Nothing in this Chapter shall be construed so as to abrogate or in any way limit the inherent and inalienable right, as recognized and affirmed in article 1, § 1 of the Utah Constitution, of persons to use any gold or silver coin as a medium of exchange as well as to acquire, produce, hold, protect and otherwise exchange the same or any other type of property, in any amount whatsoever, within the lawful course and scope of Utah intrastate commerce.

7-25-3. Authorization and Organization of Coin Depositories

1. Subject to Subsection (7), the commissioner may authorize a person described in Subsection (2) to conduct business as a coin depository.
2. Each person authorized to conduct the business of a coin depository in this state shall be organized under and governed pursuant to the provisions of Title 48, Chapter 2c, Utah Revised Limited Liability Company Act, except as otherwise provided in this title.
3. Coin depositories authorized under this Chapter are hereby expressly exempt from the provisions of Title 13, Chapter 32a, entitled "The Pawnshop and Secondhand Merchandise Transaction Information Act".
4. Each coin depository shall file reports of its condition in accordance with Section 7-1-318.
5. Every coin depository authorized under this Chapter qualifies as a "bank" as that term is defined in Title 26 of the United States Code, §408(n).
6. Every coin depository authorized under this Chapter shall at all times maintain specie currency reserves in an amount equal to or exceeding the aggregate of all specie currency deposits existing at the coin depository.
7. No coin depository may conduct business under this Chapter unless all deposits held by such coin depository are insured against theft and loss.

7-25-4. Deposit Accounts.

1. No coin depository shall offer or maintain any deposit accounts denominated in any currency other than specie currency.
2. No coin depository shall commingle in the same account gold specie currency deposits with silver specie currency deposits.
3. In order to facilitate currency exchanges, a deposit account at a coin depository may be linked to a dollar-denominated deposit account established at any Utah bank or credit union chartered under this Title.
4. Currency exchanges effected between any coin depository, bank or credit union organized and authorized under the provisions of this Title shall be entirely tax free and treated for all purposes as transactions wholly within the course and scope of Utah intrastate commerce.
5. No currency exchanges between United States dollars and specie currency shall be deemed or construed to result in any ordinary or capital gain, profit or loss.
6. Deposit accounts opened as individual retirement accounts, as well as any dollar-denominated accounts linked thereto, shall comply with all applicable provisions of section 408 of the United States Internal Revenue Code (26 U.S.C. § 408).
7. All withdrawals from deposit accounts, other than those effectuated by currency exchanges or by electronic transfers pursuant to express depositor instructions, shall be paid out in Utah specie currency.
8. Coin depositories shall employ all appropriate and necessary measures for the physical security of specie currency deposits, as well as for safeguarding all information regarding each depositor's identity and the extent of their deposits.
9. Depositor's specie currency deposits, together with their identifying information shall only be subject to disclosure, search or seizure upon issuance of a lawful warrant or writ by a judicial officer of this state pursuant to an adequate showing of probable cause with respect to the particular depositor in question. Such warrant or writ shall be executed only under the authority of the duly elected sheriff for the county within which such depository is located.

7-25-5. Constitutionality.

1. If any one or more part, provision, section, subsection, sentence, clause, phrase or word of this Chapter or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is found to be unconstitutional, the same is hereby declared to be severable and the balance of this Chapter shall remain effective notwithstanding such unconstitutionality.
2. The legislature hereby declares that it would have passed this Chapter, and each part, provision, section, subsection, sentence, clause, phrase or word thereof, irrespective of the fact that any one or more provision, section, subsection, sentence, clause, phrase or word be declared unconstitutional.

SECTION 2.

I find it odd that a group that advocates hard money wants to involve the IRS or collection agent for the FED.
Notice the bar association these guy are just as much the problem as the FED.
They use the term United States Dollar, what's their definition of a dollar?
SAE and GAE for some individuals (no SSN) is already property and thus not taxed and is already legal tender for all and no one is barred from a person to person PRIVATE contract outside of COMMERCE.
This seems like a turd to me at least, why not use what is in place or do we need more laws seem like we have enough already.

A little Gordon for ya.library.georgegordon.com/node/2044 (http://library.georgegordon.com/node/2044)

Ponce
31st March 2011, 07:22 PM
There will be a time when even with gold or silver you will not be able to obtain what you need......I should know because I saw it in person in Cuba........it was not a matter of NOT BEING ABLE TO BUY IT but rather of THERE WAS NOTHING TO BUY.

One time I went to the house across the street to tell them that they were wasting water and to turn off the water faucet outside......they guy came out with me to take a look and said "Shit, someone just stole my water pipe".........about a 25 feet of it.

Save you "junk" because tomorrow they will become a treasure.

po boy
31st March 2011, 07:39 PM
Ponce, well that's the best news I've heard all day.Maybe then I won't have to clear all the crap out of the garage.

tekrunner
31st March 2011, 10:47 PM
Ponce, well that's the best news I've heard all day.Maybe then I won't have to clear all the crap out of the garage.



That reminds me of an episode of Rockey and Bullwinkle I watched years ago. They were trying to get rid of a pile of rocks which they first tried to sell. However no matter how far they lowered the price of the rocks, and ended up offering them for free, nobody would take them. Finally a sign was put saying "warning do not take rocks"...they were all gone by the next morning.

Libertarian_Guard
31st March 2011, 11:34 PM
In certain situations, it pays to offer silver instead of plastic. Case in point, I need to order two new tires for my motorcycle. A local mechanic will mount & balance them for $60 each. At today’s prices I’ll offer him 3 rounds, which I bought for $6 or less each, or I’ll hand him my credit card. Either way, I’m fine with however it works out.

But I think he will take the rounds.

po boy
1st April 2011, 07:41 AM
In certain situations, it pays to offer silver instead of plastic. Case in point, I need to order two new tires for my motorcycle. A local mechanic will mount & balance them for $60 each. At today’s prices I’ll offer him 3 rounds, which I bought for $6 or less each, or I’ll hand him my credit card. Either way, I’m fine with however it works out.

But I think he will take the rounds.


Will you let us know how it works out?

Libertarian_Guard
1st April 2011, 01:51 PM
In certain situations, it pays to offer silver instead of plastic. Case in point, I need to order two new tires for my motorcycle. A local mechanic will mount & balance them for $60 each. At today’s prices I’ll offer him 3 rounds, which I bought for $6 or less each, or I’ll hand him my credit card. Either way, I’m fine with however it works out.

But I think he will take the rounds.


Will you let us know how it works out?



Sure thing, give me a month or so.