Feds try to seize Liberty Dollars

[platinumdude]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jjGhfU7deB2pogyqruXXvQyvro-Q?docId=6459932

RALEIGH, N.C. — Federal prosecutors on Monday tried to take a hoard of silver "Liberty Dollars" worth about $7 million that authorities say was invented by an Indiana man to compete with U.S. currency.

Bernard von NotHaus, 67, was convicted last month in federal court in Statesville on conspiracy and counterfeiting charges for making and selling the currency, which he promoted as inflation-proof competition for the U.S. dollar.

His Charlotte-based lawyer, Aaron Michel, is appealing that verdict. He wrote in a motion filed Thursday that von NotHaus did nothing wrong because he didn't try to pass the Liberty Dollars off as U.S. dollars.

"The prosecutors successfully painted Mr. von NotHaus in a false light and now the U.S. Attorney responsible for the prosecution is painting the case in a false light, saying that it establishes that private voluntary barter currency is illegal," Michel wrote.

The trial was scheduled to resume Monday in Statesville. The case involves more than five tons of Liberty Dollars and precious metals seized from a warehouse, which the government wants to take by forfeiture, according to federal prosecutors and Michel.

Von NotHaus began issuing Liberty Dollars in 1998, as head of the Evansville, Ind.-based National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve and Internal Revenue Code. In 2007, the group's headquarters were raided along with the Sunshine Mint in Coeur D'Alene, Idaho, where the coins were made. The case is being tried in Statesville because one of the organization's top officers is based in Asheville, and because an undercover investigator made contact with the group in North Carolina.

Federal prosecutors successfully argued that von NotHaus was, in fact, trying to pass off the silver coins as U.S. currency. Coming in denominations of 5, 10, 20, and 50, the Liberty Dollars also featured a dollar sign, the word "dollar" and the motto "Trust in God," similar to the "In God We Trust" that appears on U.S. coins.

"Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism," U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins said in a statement after von NotHaus was convicted.

Von NotHaus has argued it's not illegal to create currency to privately trade goods and services. He also has said his organization took pains to say the Liberty Dollars shouldn't be called "coins" and shouldn't be presented as government-minted cash. Among other benefits, Michel's motion argues, the Liberty Dollars were a means to help keep currency in local communities by creating networks of merchants and consumers who used the money.

Numerous cities and regions around the country have experimented with local currency, but laws restrict them from resembling U.S. bills or from being passed off as money printed by the federal government.

The concerns raised by von NotHaus and his group are finding resonance among some state lawmakers, too. About a dozen states have legislation that would allow them to produce their own currency backed by gold or silver in the event of hyperinflation striking the U.S. dollar. North and South Carolina are among those states.

That's partly why von NotHaus' group has been followed for years by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a group that tracks political extremism. Long before the government began its investigation into von NotHaus, the group was raising concerns about the popularity of Liberty Dollars among fringe groups on the far right.

"He's playing on a core idea of the radical right, that evil bankers in the Federal Reserve are ripping you off by controlling the money supply," said Mark Potok, spokesman for the group. "He very much exists in the world of the anti-government patriot movement, whatever he may say. That's who his customers are."

Von NotHaus is currently free on bond. If the conviction against him is upheld, he faces up to 25 years in prison and a fine of $750,000. A sentencing date has not been set yet.

[Low Pan]

so what's the difference between this and say Chuckee Chesse tokens, or even store credits?? At the end of the day to utilize the "currency" in any of these scenarios the "currency" needs to be converted to FRN's to be used outside of their "network"

[chad]

so what's the difference between this and say Chuckee Chesse tokens, or even store credits?? At the end of the day to utilize the "currency" in any of these scenarios the "currency" needs to be converted to FRN's to be used outside of their "network"


chuckee cheese tokens or store credits aren't stamped with "5 dollars" or "ten dollars" on them.

[sirgonzo420]

so what's the difference between this and say Chuckee Chesse tokens, or even store credits?? At the end of the day to utilize the "currency" in any of these scenarios the "currency" needs to be converted to FRN's to be used outside of their "network"


chuckee cheese tokens or store credits aren't stamped with "5 dollars" or "ten dollars" on them.


True enough, but these are:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BHQXYbtdBiE/SUhESuJVLtI/AAAAAAAABkk/PKL5PHVS0Yc/s400/disney_dollar_2008.jpg

[Low Pan]

"dollar" is a reference to a weight in silver, it is not a term used solely by the US:


Many of them went into the Second United States Congress, where they established the value of the dollar at 371 ¼ grains of pure silver. The law through which they did that, the Coinage Act of 1792, noted that the amount of silver they were regulating for the dollar was the same as in a coin then in widespread use, known as the Spanish milled dollar. The law said a dollar could also be the free-market equivalent in gold.

[chad]

i understand all about dollars, grains of silver, history, etc.

in the year 2011, however, if you are stamping silver rounds that look very similar to us coinage, and you write "5 dollars" on them, it probably won't work out too well for you.

[Libertytree]

"
That's partly why von NotHaus' group has been followed for years by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a group that tracks political extremism. Long before the government began its investigation into von NotHaus, the group was raising concerns about the popularity of Liberty Dollars among fringe groups on the far right."

Anytime the SPLC is involved it can't be good. IMO they're just another branch of the ilegetimate government.

[freespirit]

does anyone have a pic or a link so i can see what these liberty dollars look like?

[chad]

does anyone have a pic or a link so i can see what these liberty dollars look like?


http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&biw=1330&bih=832&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=liberty+dollar+norfed&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

the other genius thing he did was to stamp state names on them like on the new us quarters.

[ShortJohnSilver]

"
That's partly why von NotHaus' group has been followed for years by the Southern Poverty Law Center, a group that tracks political extremism. Long before the government began its investigation into von NotHaus, the group was raising concerns about the popularity of Liberty Dollars among fringe groups on the far right."

Anytime the SPLC is involved it can't be good. IMO they're just another branch of the ilegetimate government.


SPLC's main worry was that the usury engine shuts down if people stop using FRNs... which would have the side effect of defunding Israel.

[JDRock]

the ? everybody SHOULD be asking is; WHERE does this confiscated silver (even from the 30's) go???
i want to know the geographical location.......wait, lemme guess...somwhere in the middle east.. :oo-->

[chad]

the ? everybody SHOULD be asking is; WHERE does this confiscated silver (even from the 30's) go???
i want to know the geographical location.......wait, lemme guess...somwhere in the middle east.. :oo-->


they are giving it to their masters, jpm, to help cover the shorts.

[madfranks]

i understand all about dollars, grains of silver, history, etc.

in the year 2011, however, if you are stamping silver rounds that look very similar to us coinage, and you write "5 dollars" on them, it probably won't work out too well for you.




does anyone have a pic or a link so i can see what these liberty dollars look like?


They look nothing like current US coinage - every current US coin has a picture of a dead president on it (except the sac dollars), and the liberty dollars have liberty on the front and various things on the back. Only a fool would confuse one of these with genuine US coins.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQK_WW_4gGIiDmTthEUzuRjON5vSMxYy nXML1NkPcu08YaIy2ijiw

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTN1lwHKQbGO_AXtugRjfxZS3Zxn6cTC DOh8ld0IjIdEZJQHVoPww

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSDjgNkjsyYHV3dwGJpPw5DvQnzNd4Jg AtYzEBg4CvUEnl0dTOH

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrS0jj-bbUoCaxkr9lpiHa_DTv5HcT61jC9S8LyX4FsZ9qrdjl

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjo_17MYU0AsjJh1auvkOMnTju8KvYB OlOiHB5HwEGbrUKbpdYEw

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQG7nXC7SQ69KQxazEj1OfF--xYCP2qQtRnfkPd3dbhlln1iCYX&t=1

[midnight rambler]

Only a fool would confuse one of these with genuine US coins.


Considering our current state of affairs (including a fake president w/o sufficient documentation to meet the eligibility requirements of the office), what % of the population of the USA do you really think are fools?

[sirgonzo420]

Only a fool would confuse one of these with genuine US coins.


Considering our current state of affairs (including a fake president w/o sufficient documentation to meet the eligibility requirements of the office), what % of the population of the USA do you really think are fools?




At a bare minimum, the entire electorate.

[madfranks]

Only a fool would confuse one of these with genuine US coins.


Considering our current state of affairs (including a fake president w/o sufficient documentation to meet the eligibility requirements of the office), what % of the population of the USA do you really think are fools?




I concede that point to you.

However, I still would expect a jury, when given the duty to study this matter, to conclude that they are not counterfeit US coinage. As hard as I try, I just cannot imagine how anyone would think that those are counterfeit coins. Especially when after they make that judgement they turn around and say that they are seizing the counterfeit coins, "worth about $7 million". Doesn't anyone see the irony in dismissing the coins as counterfeit and then seizing them because they're worth so much? Counterfeit money is supposed to be worthless!

[Half Sense]

Bastards still owe me 100 Ron Paul copper dollars.

[BrewTech]

Bastards still owe me 100 Ron Paul copper dollars.


I'm sure that if you just send the prosecutor a polite email about that they will be glad to help you out.

[sirgonzo420]

Bastards still owe me 100 Ron Paul copper dollars.


I'm sure that if you just send the prosecutor a polite email about that they will be glad to help you out.




... and add your name to the "defendants" list.


lol

[Half Sense]

Actually there is no provision for owners of copper dollars to petition for the return of their property. The Feds had to steal your silver or gold for you to be eligible.

[madfranks]

Bastards still owe me 100 Ron Paul copper dollars.


I think I found them: (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21836699/ns/politics-decision_08/)


Federal agents raided the headquarters of a group that produces illegal currency and puts it in circulation, seizing gold, silver and two tons of copper coins featuring Republican presidential candidate Ron Paul.

[Awoke]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTN1lwHKQbGO_AXtugRjfxZS3Zxn6cTC DOh8ld0IjIdEZJQHVoPww

Oooh, I like that one!

[Half Sense]

Yep, they were just starting to ship them out when the Feds raided. I've always thought it was the $1 Ron Paul coppers that prompted the Fed to bust it up. It was a powerful symbol that could have gone very big in an election year. People give out promotional materials by the boxcar in an election year, but copper Ron Pauls IMO would have been meaningful collectors items that also taught a valuable and timely lesson. TPTB cold not allow it.

[AndreaGail]

I was floored when I saw mention of the liberty dollar and von not haus in our school paper today in an op ed piece


Stern: Undermining the gov. is not terrorism
by Seth Stern
The Rocky Mountain Collegian
|
bookmark this page
last edited: 9:35 am 04/05/2011


On March 18, 2011, the federal government fired another salvo in the war against their bankrupt, oligarchic, despotic, power-hungry, corrupt and failing organization.

Though my feelings and thoughts on the federal government have been thoroughly presented previously, inevitably some will again accuse me of taking an “us versus them,” mentality. To those naysayers I respond, again, damn straight.
The Framers of the Constitution –– the document that created the federal government –– designed the federal level of government as a servant for the collective will of the states to serve their united needs.

What we have now instead is a beast draining the life from the economy, the states, the resolve of our allies and for the last decade, the rights of citizens.

As the quote goes, “don’t steal, the government hates competition.” The trial against Bernard von NotHaus on charges of conspiracy and counterfeiting initiated because the federal government does not want other forms of exchange competing with the system of consumption fed by the Federal Reserve note.

Understandable, after all, the Federal Reserve note you use today to buy most of a 20-ounce bottle of soda has lost 96 percent of its value since 1913 when the Federal Reserve first started protecting the value of the dollar as its delusional supporters claim.

Von NotHaus, 67, founded the company who made the Liberty Dollar.

The prosecution successfully, although inaccurately, argued NotHaus attempted to pass off Liberty Dollars –– which are made from silver and gold –– as U.S. currency. This argument completely disregards the facts.

A major point of dispute between the defendant and the prosecution came from the intended purpose of Liberty Dollars. Printed in various denominations, a single-silver Liberty Dollar carried a value of $20 American until recently.

For those of you with the foresight to buy physical silver and gold, you are aware of what has happened to the values of both. If you haven’t been paying attention you may want to start. A single 1-ounce silver coin is now worth nearly $40 and climbing.

NotHaus stated his intent was to create an item used for barter in the exchange of goods. Barter is similar to purchase, but with important distinctions, in barter you literally can trade anything for anything –– apparently except for silver and gold for consumer products.

Regardless, it is highly important to understand the claims made by the federal government as well as the prosecutor’s statements after the trial found NotHaus guilty.

Article 1, Section 10 of the Constitution declares, “No state shall coin money or make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts.”

Several states, including our Mormon sister to the west, have initiated legislation for silver and gold coins as legal currency within their state to protect their residents from the effects of the Federal Reserve’s hyperinflationary and highly ignorant maneuvers to correct the economy’s southward trajectory.

Do what you can to understand what happens in countries that enter hyperinflationary depressions.

Upon NotHaus’ conviction U.S. Attorney Anne Tompkins declared, “Attempts to undermine the legitimate currency of this country are simply a unique form of domestic terrorism.” Careful there prosecutor, you sound an awful lot like a statist.
The facts of the case are simple, NotHaus never sold Liberty Dollars as legal tender and each dollar has “negotiable” stamped or printed on the face.

None of the products resembled the rapidly devaluing Federal Reserve note other than being paper –– backed by silver and gold, a practice the Keynesian lemmings of the world abhor –– or coin.

The federal government is telling us everything we need to know about the federal government. If you are not completely in line with their agenda, you are a terrorist. Does this sound like the land of the free and the home of the brave?

The game is changing, the platform of hope has given way to, “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.”

Time to choose sides.

Seth J. Stern is not paranoid if proven correct. His column appears Tuesdays in the Collegian. Letters and feedback can be sent to letters@collegian.com.

[iOWNme]

If what he did was 'illegal', then what about the mint that minted them? Wait, let me guess......That part is 'legal' because the Mint has a 'license' to operate. (They paid the Thugs for protection, and Mr Von NotHaus didnt.)

THAT is the truth of this matter.

We live in a society where we are forced to trade our labor for worthless paper which is in return stolen from us in a myriad of different hidden 'taxes'......Meanwhile a man uses REAL money as a form of currency and barter which in return freezes the purchasing power of your labor and stops Government PLUNDER.

I can feel the slow towering encroachment of the STATE and it's Minions of control, submission, and death marching to the beat of the 4th Reich.

[solid]

True, it is about status, but the damn things say $10 Dollars and such on them. It is undermining the Federal Reserve Notes, and it is domestic terrorism.

Stupid.


For some reason, logically, I just can't wrap my head around this. These coins/rounds are metal, FRN's are paper. How can metal fake paper, even digital numbers to be exact.

Makes no sense. If the liberty dollars were paper printed, but backed by metals, maybe that would marginally arguable.

1 oz of silver, is just 1 oz of silver. It is what it is, it can't undermine anything. It says on the coins 1 oz of silver.

To quote the author from andreagail's article...

"The game is changing, the platform of hope has given way to, “If you’re not with us, you’re against us.”

Time to choose sides."

This is very true. The gov goons don't know what they are doing. The line has been drawn in the sand.

[Twisted Titan]

Rule Number 372 and 373 of The Hard Currency Cookbook:

(372) Dont hold Warehouse reciepts in lieu of Hard curreny and (373) Dont let your Hard curreny be held in a Warehouse.

A most painful,compromising and expensive lesson to learn.

[mightymanx]

The mind bender is if the plantiffs claim is that Dollars is a goverment only term that pricedent could open the door for a counterfitting lawsuit against the FED for printing the term dollars on their reserve notes.

something to ponder anyway.

[Atocha]

Looking at Northwest Territorial Mint I notice these.

https://store.nwtmint.com/State_Quarter_Replicas/

It seems these would be more of a violation than those pictured above.

It was the "Ron Paul" Copper Coins that caused the problems.

[madfranks]

True, it is about status, but the damn things say $10 Dollars and such on them. It is undermining the Federal Reserve Notes, and it is domestic terrorism.

Stupid.




Simple. Persons of the United States deal in the number of $ written on the item they are exchanging, whether it be a FRN, a check, or a coin. That $ is not theirs. People can create their own money if they wish, but you better not put a name on it that someone else created for their own money. If he had said @10 DOLL HAIRS instead of $10 DOLLARS, the case of them being domestic terrorism vs. a private money would have leaned in his favor instead.


Look at this:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRJDwo9I7fd61re84Ti9XkLAod9UeQ6f PfWWOipIjZpV7kvLs42

I suppose the guys running Arizona Tea are domestic terrorists too, because look, right on the can itself it says 99¢. By using the "¢" symbol, they are "putting a name on it that someone else created for their own money". Forget that it's actually a can of tea (or an ounce of silver) with intrinsic value in and of itself, since they put the price right on the item they must be trying to undermine the legitimacy of the real currency. It's the same thing as stamping a $10 price on an ounce of silver, or a $20 price or even a $50 price. It is plausible that one might bring in ten cans of Arizona tea and try to barter it for $10 worth of something else, using the face value of the can as evidence of worth.