Im a (basically) tNOOB with some questions

[sumncguy]

Long story short.

I believe the dollar is in trouble and will sooner or later fail. Maybe not today, tomorrow or two or three years but its ripe.

I am not a collector, nor do I really care about resale at this stage of the game.

I am interested in increasing my personal stock pile so that if the worst happens, I have some other means to use as currency and barter. My goal here is to have a small nest egg to ensure that I am still able to keep my family fed, clothed and with a roof over their head.

I do already have a very small amount of silver. I just purchased a roll of Eagles locally, but I think I can do a little better. I plan on making another small purchase of around $1000. Im cutting my 401k investment in half and changing to after tax contributions. The difference will be used for pay day purchases of silver. I am most interested in small denominations 1/2 - 5 oz bars and maybe 1/4 - 1 oz coins. Junks are an obvious possibility (but want to stay away from US currency to server this particular purpose)

So my question ? Taking all that I mentioned into account, what is the best method to reach my goal ?

I need to fine reputable dealers .. surely buy a test kit to spot check ... I was thinking about making a purchase from apmex .. http://www.apmex.com/Product/22/1_oz_Silver_Bar___Mint_Varies___999_Fine.aspx

[ximmy]

Try providentmetals.com & monarchpreciousmetals.com

[mightymanx]

I personaly perfer the following:

#1 Local dealer if at all possible so shipping and insurance dont eat you up and less of a paper trail

#2 I tend towards generic bullion in silver I don't see paying the premium for government minted bullion. Don't overlook gold whch leads me to #3

#3 I also invest in fractional gold bullion and no larger than 5 ounce silver bullion when the time comes to "spend" my stack it is real hard to have some one make change for your 1000 bar or gold ounce when gold is worth 10k an ounce. I feel it is worth the premium I pay in the gold market for the fractionals.

#4 Stay the hell away from ebay till you are very confident in your skills it is a pig in a poke and chock full of scam. Deals can be had but that takes lits of skill. This also applies to craglist.

Apmex is great for mailorder
NWT mint is good if you show up there but they take forever for delivery.
Monarch Precious metals has been the best little secret I have found in years.
Tulving is outstanding but they are usaly above most peoples budget 20 AGE minimum normaly.

I hope that helped lots of resources around.

[Sparky]

Don't be afraid of pre-1965 US coins; if there is small silver barter, it will be prime choice. The fact that it is U.S. currency is a plus, and totally unrelated to the baseless fiat dollars.

If you started with a roll of Eagles, you don't need any more of those for a while.

For the first $1000 silver, I'd recommend:
A roll (40) of pre-1965 quarters $340
A roll (50) of pre-1965 dimes $180
10 1-oz rounds $430

For the 2nd $1000 I'd recommend all 1-oz rounds (20-25 of them depending on current price)

For the 3rd $1000 I'd recommend you get a 10-oz bar ($430), and the rest in 1-oz rounds (10-15 of them, depending on current price) or pre-1965 half-dollars (about 10 of them).

If you only have $1000 to spend for the foreseeable future, plan to spend half of it in July. (Unless you are buying locally and your state taxes for purchases under $1000 like mine does).

Good luck.

[uncletonoose]

Better yet, stop all contributions to your 401k, and use that to purchase junk silver. Junk silver is the best bang for your buck. Also pull out all of the cash in the 401k, and take the tax hit. Silver gains for 2010 were above 80%, and so far this year above 29%.

401k's will be devastated when the Dow plunges. Just my thoughts.

[SLV^GLD]

Best thing we did was dump the 401(k) and put it in silver. 10% penalty and 10% tax. Big whoop, the remainder has appreciated almost 200% since that time.

[sumncguy]

I will eventually take the 401k and reallocate it.

I have been familiarizing myself with Junk purchases.

Ref Kennedy '64 1/2 DOLLARS

I know that
spot x ounce/gram conversion factor x weight x silver percentage = cost per coin
39.37 × .0321507466 × 12.5 × .90 = $14.2399675534

So this tells me that for each coin, the spot price is ~$14.24 .. the spot for 40 is $570.

Am I figuring this right ?? If so,

What is a reasonable percentage of profit to pay to the dealer ? .. basically the true buy price. I understand that dealers may knock a little off for big orders ... but for this exercise, in general terms ... how much is an acceptable level of profit to pay the dealer for a roll of 20 or 40 '64 Kennedys ??

[SLV^GLD]

"Acceptable" is subjective for both the buyer and the seller.

First, use www.coinflation.com to get an idea what spot values per coin are. Use their silver melt value calculator to get an idea of what spot for lots of coins are.

Second, learn your dealer. Some dealers consider junk silver, well, junk. They sell it under spot. Some dealers see high demand for pre-'65 90% and sell it as if it were premium bullion. At any rate, I generally expect to pay no more than 10% over spot for pre-'65 90%. This is primarily because I can get it cheaper elsewhere.

One thing you might try to accomplish is buying the pre-'65 90% coins by weight instead of face value since these coins typically exhibit a shocking amount of wear in large amounts. Some dealers are sympathetic to this approach but most are not. Again, www.coinflation.com will arm you with the right numbers before you try to make this type of transaction.

Lately I have been buying the 2010 and 2011 90% state quarters off of eBay for well under spot as often as I have the FRNs. This works especially well if you can land several auctions from the same seller to combine the shipping. They are encased in plastic certificates so authenticity is easy to ascertain. Also, they exhibit ZERO wear and may command a numismatic premium someday since they are special year runs of the quarter.

[madfranks]

I will eventually take the 401k and reallocate it.

I have been familiarizing myself with Junk purchases.

Ref Kennedy '64 1/2 DOLLARS

I know that
spot x ounce/gram conversion factor x weight x silver percentage = cost per coin
39.37 × .0321507466 × 12.5 × .90 = $14.2399675534

So this tells me that for each coin, the spot price is ~$14.24 .. the spot for 40 is $570.

Am I figuring this right ?? If so,

What is a reasonable percentage of profit to pay to the dealer ? .. basically the true buy price. I understand that dealers may knock a little off for big orders ... but for this exercise, in general terms ... how much is an acceptable level of profit to pay the dealer for a roll of 20 or 40 '64 Kennedys ??


Good math, but next time you can save yourself the hassle and visit coinflation.com - they list the silver values of all the "junk silver" coins there. For instance, right now I see they list the silver content of a '64 Kennedy half at $14.24, which is right on with your math above. Keep in mind though, that this assumes a full weight coin. Lots of pre '65 coins are worn down a good bit, so if you buy a roll of silver dimes and they're all worn down due to circulation, you've lost a good amount of the silver there. '64 Kennedys are great because that was the last year of silver coinage and they were all almost immediately hoarded instead of circulated, so they're usually in better condition than Franklin or Walking Liberty Halves.

[Sparky]

I think Apmex is a good "sanity check" on pricing. Their current price is $309/ roll for cash or $319 for credit. Plus shipping.

That's 10% over spot, which is relatively high for pre-1965 coins. But 64 Kennedy's sometime cost an extra premium because they are rarely worn down. (Interestingly, Apmex is selling quarters for a dollar higher!) Also, the premium on pre-65 coins tends to vary a lot. I'd say anything around $300 is reasonable at this spot price.

P.S. 1964 Kennedy halves are a great choice for you at this point.

P.P.S. Smaller silver purchases are better made locally if you can get a similar price, because shipping charges are going to add a few percent to your per-ounce cost.

[Half Sense]

I did weigh a bunch of Morgan "culls" one time and there was up to a 2-gram difference between the lightest and heaviest.

But the lost weight of worn coins may not be a problem if TSHTF. Maybe for larger transactions someone might want to weigh a bag of silver coins rather than adding the face value, but for spending a dime or quarter I think if you can see the design and read the date you'll be good.

[sumncguy]

Yeah .. thats where I got the "formula" coinflation.

Im sure Ill have more questions. I appreciate all the help with getting this off the ground.

Tks alot folks

[sumncguy]

Hey guys .. Ive been looking at this 401k thing ... its actually a little more that 10% tax and 10% penalty.

For me ....

20% Fed tax (Required to be held by Fidelity)
4% NC tax
10% Penalty

Then .. if the income moves me into another bracket (it will) that would further increase the hit.
There is other options ... not sure they are any better ... but ...

Just sayin'

[SLV^GLD]

20% Fed tax (Required to be held by Fidelity)
4% NC tax
10% Penalty
That sucks, the actual fed tax rate is only 10% so you should see the additional 10% refunded in your fed return. We did not realize a 4% NC tax that I was aware of. Maybe it was calculated into the return and I didn't realize it. NC is a tax beast. I cannot wait to get the eff out of this tax crazy state.

I do know that when we dumped that 401(k) we got to sign a bunch of papers to release the FULL amount into our hands. We set aside the correct percentages of the silver to be used to pay the upcoming taxes with but when the day came we used available FRNs in stead. It was still a good plan because the silver appreciated so we would have realized a net ounces gained even if we liquidated some to pay the taxes.

401(k) plans differ from employer to employer. I'm still invested in one I quit contributing to a few years ago. I can't touch it unless I lose my job or ripen to the correct age (hardship loans not withstanding). If you don't hold it you don't own it. I consider it possible to be a small parachute should I get laid off but have no illusion whatsoever it will still exist by the time I ripen to age.

[hoarder]

The government wants you in paper assets. That way they can monitor, control and take their share.
It's hard for them to "take their share" of gold and silver buried in your yard.

[sumncguy]

One things for sure .. this guy Sam ... aint no freekin' Uncle of mine !! ;D ;D

[Sparky]

20% Fed tax (Required to be held by Fidelity)
4% NC tax
10% Penalty
That sucks, the actual fed tax rate is only 10% so you should see the additional 10% refunded in your fed return...


I don't understand. Isn't a 401K withdrawal treated like ordinary income? What do you mean the fed tax rate is only 10%?



401(k) plans differ from employer to employer. I'm still invested in one I quit contributing to a few years ago. I can't touch it unless I lose my job or ripen to the correct age (hardship loans not withstanding). If you don't hold it you don't own it. I consider it possible to be a small parachute should I get laid off but have no illusion whatsoever it will still exist by the time I ripen to age.


It's hard to turn down a dollar-for-dollar match in a 401K. The risk is that they become nationalized and converted to a "social security" annuity-type payment. But it seems that would be slow in coming (getting through the political process, then implemented in phases), and there would be time to move it out as long as you are prepared to do so if it comes to that. Most people will be paralyzed and do nothing, which they would be counting on. I might be tempted to do a partial removal at that point.

[SLV^GLD]

That sucks, the actual fed tax rate is only 10% so you should see the additional 10% refunded in your fed return...


I don't understand. Isn't a 401K withdrawal treated like ordinary income? What do you mean the fed tax rate is only 10%?
Ah, yes, you are correct. My mistake, the 10% number I was using was the realized federal tax rate for that income.


It's hard to turn down a dollar-for-dollar match in a 401K. The risk is that they become nationalized and converted to a "social security" annuity-type payment. But it seems that would be slow in coming (getting through the political process, then implemented in phases), and there would be time to move it out as long as you are prepared to do so if it comes to that. Most people will be paralyzed and do nothing, which they would be counting on. I might be tempted to do a partial removal at that point.
Tell that to France (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/following-hungary-and-ireland-france-next-seize-pension-funds). I've found better things to do with my weekly dollars than put them somewhere I'm not allowed to touch them. The main thing that made the decision for me was that I have no control where they are invested. So what if the employer matches dollar for dollar when the investments crash and the return rate is negative.

[sumncguy]

I dont want to stray too far off the original subject

but the 401k bothers me because ..

if you want or need to hit it, it loses every single cent of appreciation and maybe even some loss of $$$.

But .. the biggest this best explained in an article I read recently and what always got my panties in a twist is :

"Let's say that you invest $100 in your 401k. With a 50% decline, you are left with $50.

A 50% increase will only get you to $75."

.. and that my friends is exactly what happened and is happening to mine.
No speculation here.

[osoab]

I too was looking to invest in silver but on a mounthly bases and came across "Silver Saver". They offer an easy way to invest in silver and gold that is really affordable.

The best part is the premium over spot is as little as 3% to at most 7.5%.

They have alot more info on there site on how there service works and you can call them if you have any additional questions..they are very frendly.

https://silversaver.com/

And if you do decide to use there service please use share-code ---- <deleted JQP>.


Hope this helps.


http://www.sembeo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/spam.jpg

[sumncguy]

I did check that out ... prollum wiff dat is there is a paper trail.

Not to crazy about buying online either because you, obviously, need to do some type of electronic transaction.
I did find a dealer who sells locally at 1% over melt, but they dont do alot of silver ... mainly gold. Gots 20 Morgans from her for six somthing about two weeks ago.

I found another guy who is pretty "big" lots of volume. But he is an hour away ... so what I save in premiums, I spend in gas. BUT .. no paper trail .... all cash ...... so I prefer to buy from either.

[tvminko]

I too was looking to invest in silver but on a mounthly bases and came across "Silver Saver". They offer an easy way to invest in silver and gold that is really affordable.

The best part is the premium over spot is as little as 3% to at most 7.5%.

They have alot more info on there site on how there service works and you can call them if you have any additional questions..they are very frendly.

https://silversaver.com/

And if you do decide to use there service please use share-code ----.
<deleted JQP>

Hope this helps.


http://www.sembeo.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/spam.jpg


How is what i posted any different than promoting the major gold and silver investment firms out there . The only difference I can see is that I get a tiny bonus for telling people about this site.

And did you even bother to visit the site before marking this as spam

[ximmy]

::)

[1970 silver art]

::)


Hey Ximmy, quit posting that SPAM. You're making me hungry. :D

:ROFL:

I cannot eat tvminko's spam because a computer screen will make me sick and leave a bad taste in my mouth. :D

[tvminko]

It's sad that some indeviduals think investing in PMs is only possible through APMEX and MONEX keeping themselves closed to new ideas and what might be a good thing.

[SLV^GLD]

What it makes it spam is how you created an account with the obvious intention of advertising. Now you only post to defend your actions and continue to advertise. It's bad forum etiquette.

[tvminko]

Spam or not as a last attempt at supporting this program I just discovered that David Morgan, author of the "Morgan Report" is as supporter of SilverSaver.

[SilverMagnet]

Spam or not as a last attempt at supporting this program I just discovered that David Morgan, author of the "Morgan Report" is as supporter of SilverSaver.


Your site only promotes the digital derivative of Silver and a promise to store (at cost) the physical metal. This is no different than what the big crooks do, only on a smaller scale. Go pitch your tent up another river. The people here are wise enough to buy physical and store it themselves for free. Which is the point of having purchased the metal in the first place. To secure tangible assets in a fiat system backed by nothing but empty promises.

[JohnQPublic]

Hey guys .. Ive been looking at this 401k thing ... its actually a little more that 10% tax and 10% penalty.

For me ....

20% Fed tax (Required to be held by Fidelity)
4% NC tax
10% Penalty

Then .. if the income moves me into another bracket (it will) that would further increase the hit.
There is other options ... not sure they are any better ... but ...

Just sayin'


Some 401-K plans allow yuo to borrow up to half the amount. You then pay yourself back plus interest (again you are payng your own account back). You can stop contributing in the mean time to the 401-K as an option to help the payback. Ask you human resource dept.