noob with promised more questions ....

[sumncguy]

Ok .. so coinflation is a good site to tell me what the smelted value of a specific coin is.
but ... it doesnt tell me what the true pay price is.
So I wrote a program to figure the SILVER value of each based on the info given on coinflation. See the sample below. I did this so that I would have something readily available (and printable) that provides the start, spot, and the end, spot + 5% values. Basically a baseline to work with.

Now ... Questions
1. What is the difference between the smelt price value and the true pay price ? Im guessing, its the profit margin for the dealer.

2. On a few different resources, including this forum, Ive read that the average profit margin is in the ball park of 1 to 3%. Why is for instance Monarch precious metals at $15.89 for the 1964 Kennedy Half Dollar. The price of a single 64 Kennedy 1/2 should be between spot 14.94 and less than spot + 5% 15.69.

Twenty cents isnt really alot of money, but add it into the percentage of profit and it raises questions. Know ? Even if I figured in the 10% copper of these coins, it wouldnt bring up the price beyond 5%.

Am I missing something ??





***** My Cheap G Coin Evaluator *****

1. 1942-1945 Jefferson Nickel 35% 5g
2. 1916-1945 Mercury Dime 90% 2.5g
3. 1946-1964 Roosevelt Dime 90% 2.5g
4. 1916-1930 Standing Liberty Quarter 90% 6.25g
5. 1932-1964 Washington Quarter 90% 6.25g
6. 1916-1947 Walking Liberty Half Dollar 90% 12.5g
7. 1948-1963 Franklin Half Dollar 90% 12.5 g
8. 1964 Kennedy Half Dollar 90 % 12.5 g
9. 1965-1970 Half Dollar 40% 11.5 g
10.1878-1921 Morgan Dollar 90% 26.73 g
11.1921-1935 Peace Dollar 90% 26.73 g
12. 1971-1976 Eisenhower Dollar 40% 24.59 g

Select a menu item : 8
Enter Silver spot : 41.31

While spot is 41.31 ...
Spot per coin $14.94.
Dealer profit of 5% per coin $0.75.
True buy price per coin $15.69.
True buy price per roll of 20 $313.77.
True buy price per roll of 40 $627.55.

[osoab]

Dude, your taking this way too in depth, unless you are trading contracts. Buy and hold physical is the name of the game. Buying here is iffy at these lofty levels, a correction just seems likely. It really is about time for another margin hike with this last week.

I am not buy much personally at the current time. I have no dry powder available. That makes things easy.

DCA should be your mantra. Dollar Cost Average.

Eagles right now, anywhere from 1-8 over spot. I wouldn't pay 8 personally, but if you dont' have any...?

Generic rounds I would only pay 1 over spot. Kooks and such would be a different story.

Start browsing multiple sites about what their buy/sell spread is. You may learn a thing or two.

[Sparky]

You are confusing premium with spread. Premium is the amount paid over spot (or melt). Spread is the difference between buy price and sell price, which is essentially the profit margin. You are also mistaking that the margins are fixed. They vary all the time. If you want to check out a "fair" price, go see what the same product is selling at multiple sellers, and it will be able to tell what's fair. Keep in mind that local dealers have to pay for commercial rental space, but don't charge you for shipping. It's not for you to determine what a "fair" profit is. The market determines that.

[sumncguy]

Thanks guys ... Im sure my "speak" is off ...

I read this snippit ..

quote
Spot, Premiums, Discounts, Spreads, and Fees
When you buy or sell silver (or gold), there are a lot of variables that come into play in determining the price (unless you simply buy a bar marked '$100' at a yard sale). Some dealers make this very easy (showing just the price you pay per ounce), others make it harder (by not making shipping costs or commission charges easily accessible).

The most important variable is the current spot price. This is typically updated many times each minute throughout the day (the notable exception being on weekends, when the price is not changed). It is based on the price of futures contracts for the nearest delivery month. But if the spot price of silver is $15/ounce, you won't pay $15 for an ounce of silver.

Like all other businesses, dealers cannot sell to you for the same price that they buy something. In retail, this is called a markup (e.g. the store may pay $200 for a TV, and sell it to you for $250, resulting in a $50 markup). With precious metals, dealers typically buy from customers as well as sell to customers. The difference in price is called a 'spread'. So a dealer may have a 3% spread between their buy and sell prices (so if you buy something from them, and sell it back while the spot price is the same, you will lose 3% from the spread).

The next factor is premiums and discounts. If a dealer sells to you (or buys from you) above the spot price, the difference between the sell (or buy) price and spot is called the 'premium.' Alternatively, if they sell or buy below the spot price, the difference is called the 'discount.' The premium for some products is higher than for other products. For example, the premium for 1 ounce .999 fine coins is usually higher than for 1 ounce .999 fine medals (ones not produced by a government), and .999 fine coins/medals that weigh less than an ounce usually have a higher premium than those that weigh an ounce.

Another factor is fees (such as shipping, commissions, and taxes). Most 'brick and mortal' dealers do not charge any fees other than taxes (if applicable). Most online dealers charge shipping, but not tax. Some upscale dealers charge commissions (typically ones that have salespeople that call you occasionally).

So there you have it!
unquote

Spread = a tv bought at 200 sold to me for a profit of 50 bucks, 250. A 64 Kennedy, for arguments sake
bought at 15 and sold to me for 27.

Premium = if spot is 14.94 for a 64 Kennedy and the dealer sells it to me for 24.94. The 10 bucks is the preimum, that doesnt necessary mean that he paid anywhere between 14.94 to 24.94. ... thats just what hes selling it to me for.


BUT ... although all this is good to know .. still ... in anything bought there is an acceptable profit margin I (or anyone else) should be willing to pay.

If I were considering the 1972 Datsun 510 Wagon at the local used car lot ... the guy may have paid 200 for the car but wants to sell it to me for 2000 (spread).

or

The blue book on the car says its worth 197 but he sells it to me for 2000. This is the premium, but Ill never know what he bought the car for ... and EVERY dealer (at least the ones Ive looked at online) will sell above bluebook (or spot). So premiums is always paid. I havent found a single dealer selling below spot. They may be out there, but I havent found them. And, Im sure, dealers will try to devalue when you try to sell. A single example I found ...

http://silverandgoldexchange.com/live-price-chart/ - note the bolded words "The prices listed are exactly what you would receive... " .. the coin is actually worth 15 bucks but they want to buy it from me for 12.

In either case, I wouldnt be inclined to buy that car for $2000. Its just too expensive. I would be willing to pay $250 for that Datsun.

I understand the market fluctuates .. right now Camrys and Accords are flying off lots while diesels are rusting .... but I still wouldnt pay $75,000 for a Camry.

The answer that I am searching for is .... If spot is 41.31, and spot for one single 64 Kennedy works out to be 14.94. What is an acceptable percentage to pay for the coin ?

Again, Im not a collector or investor ... I want to buy at the cheapest possible rate available to me. That requires that I know what the acceptable dealer profit margin above spot is.

What would you guys say to me if I posted "Hey man, I just bought a tube of 50 Mercury Dimes for $529 ?"
You'd probably ask me if I wanted to buy more, right ? ;D

tks
Chris

[Sparky]

...
The answer that I am searching for is .... If spot is 41.31, and spot for one single 64 Kennedy works out to be 14.94. What is an acceptable percentage to pay for the coin ?

Again, Im not a collector or investor ... I want to buy at the cheapest possible rate available to me. That requires that I know what the acceptable dealer profit margin above spot is.

What would you guys say to me if I posted "Hey man, I just bought a tube of 50 Mercury Dimes for $529 ?"
You'd probably ask me if I wanted to buy more, right ? ;D

tks
Chris



It sounds like you're looking for some general guidelines to make sure you're not getting ripped of. So I'll offer a general range of what you might be expected to pay, which varies by the "type" of silver. If you can get it near the lower end of the range, you're doing great. If you pay at the high end it could mean that you are overpaying OR the current supply/demand and availability commands the higher price. Also, you may have to pay the high end to buy it locally, but you'll save on shipping.

So here's what I think are reasonable expected ranges to pay over the spot/melt price. Others can chime in if they disagree.

Pre-1965 U.S. coins: 0%-15%
Silver bullion (rounds and bars) 3%-10%
Silver Eagles or Maples 5%-15%

The premium on pre-1965 (junk) coins seems to vary the most. A few years ago you could buy it at near spot, but you might get 5% under spot to sell it back. Now it seems to be selling at a high premium. It's also the type that varies the most buy the amount you purchase. You might get it at 1% over spot if you buy $30,000 worth, but have to pay 15% if you're buying a single roll.

If you find that most/all sellers are selling at the high end, then you'll have to pay the price if you want it. If you're just starting, you might have to do that to get in the game, but in that case try to avoid making one big purchase UNLESS you have to figure in sales tax. In my state, there a 6.25% sales tax on purchases under $1000, so that's like adding 6% to the ranges listed above! I think in CA the minimum non-tax purchase is $1500. So if you're in state with that type of tax structure, try to purchase enough to avoid that tax. However, if you don't have enough cash to do that and you have no silver, you can make a smaller purchase just to get in the game.

[sumncguy]

YES YES YES Sparks .. thanks man .. that is exactly what Im trying to get at.

And the percentages you provide CAN and WILL help with my purchases. I understand that they are in
general terms.

I can modify my faggy little program to figure lets say 7.5 % on these coins. I can print a report of all at the time I go to a dealer or show and have that list in my pocket readily available to tell me if Im getting taken or not. Thats really all Im looking for ... a baseline / sliding window.

Using the car analogy, Boston Chevy may charge $21k for that Silverado, Fall River maybe $22,500, and Plymouth maybe $22k ....while book my be $20k. Ill already know and realize supply, demand and spot will have a role in the "retail" price.

Tks again man .. really preeesch !!

ps the way shipping has gone up, shipping and nc tax is, not quite, but just about a wash.

[JohnQPublic]

...I can print a report of all at the time I go to a dealer or show and have that list in my pocket readily available to tell me if Im getting taken or not...



I would not show it! If you do, have two lists- one at the low end, and one at the high end.

Look at his prices, and if above the low end, say, 'here is what an silverbug friend of mine said I should look for.' Then have your high end chart ready, and be sure the dealer is in between (Don't show the high end chart, or you may end up paying it).

[sumncguy]

Good Idea JohnQ .. keep my poker face on ...

[osoab]

Silver and Gold Exchange (http://silverandgoldexchange.com/live-price-chart/)

sumncguy, I just checked out the site you linked to. I would take everything they say with a grain of salt bigger than your head.

Look at their buy spreads. 200 under spot for 1 oz of gold bullion. 150 under spot for an AGE. 36.20 for non-BU ASE.
Generic 100oz Ag bar for 33xx. That is 7 under spot per ounce. I would highlight a few, but those buy prices are seriously ridiculous.


Gold Prices

Karat Per Gram Per Pennyweight (DWT) Per Troy Ounce Per Avoirdupois (Postage Scale) Ounce
24K 30.58 47.56 951.21 866.99
22K 23.70 36.86 737.26 671.98
18K 19.41 30.18 603.65 550.21
14K 16.51 25.68 513.65 468.17
10K 10.79 16.78 335.63 305.91



Silver Coins

Item Per Each
US Dollar (1935 and Earlier) 26.47
Us Half Dollar (1964 and earlier) 11.65
US Quarter (1964 and earlier) 5.82
US Dime (1964 and earlier) 2.33
US Half Dollar (1965-1970) 4.47
US Silver War Nickles (1942-1945) 1.70
American Eagle (Brilliant Uncirculated) - 1oz 38.21
American Eagle (Non BU) - 1 oz 36.20
Canadian Maple Leaf - 1oz 36.20
Chinese Panda - 1oz 34.19
Vienna Philharmonic - 1oz 34.19
Canadian Dime (1966 and earlier) 1.81
Canadian Quarter (1966 and earlier) 4.51
Canadian Half Dollar (1966 and earlier) 9.06
Canadian Dollar (1966 and earlier) 18.12


Silver Bullion

Item Per Each
Engelhard 1 Ounce Bar/Round 36.20
Engelhard 10 Ounce Bar 353.93
Engelhard 100 Ounce Bar 3499.12
Johnson-Matthey 1 Ounce Bar/Round 36.20
Johnson-Matthey 10 Ounce Bar 353.93
Johnson-Matthey 100 Ounce Bar 3499.12
Generic 1 Ounce Bar/Round 34.19
Generic 5 Ounce Bar 170.93
Generic 10 Ounce Bar 341.87
Generic 100 Ounce Bar 3378.46


Gold Coins

Item Per Each
American Eagle - 1 oz 1317.10
American Eagle - 1/2 oz 665.80
American Eagle - 1/4 oz 336.56
American Eagle - 1/10 oz 136.11
American Buffalo - 1 oz 1287.66
American Arts Medallion - 1 oz 1243.92
$20 St Gaudens (Double Eagle) 1288.40
US $20 Liberty 1274.25
US $10 Liberty 637.12
US $5 Liberty 318.56
Canadian Maple Leaf - 1 oz 1287.66
Canadian Maple Leaf - 1/2 oz 643.83
Canadian Maple Leaf - 1/4 oz 321.92
Canadian Maple Leaf - 1/10 oz 128.77
Canadian Maple Leaf - 1/20 oz 64.38
Krugerrand - 1 oz 1288.25
Krugerrand - 1/2 oz 636.75
Krugerrand - 1/4 oz 318.37
Krugerrand - 1/10 oz 127.37
British Sovereign 303.55
Vienna Philharmonic 1287.66
French 20 Franc Rooster 213.93
French 20 Franc Angel 213.93
Chinese Panda - 1 oz 1287.66
Chinese Panda - 1/2 oz 643.83
Chinese Panda - 1/4 oz 321.92
Chinese Panda - 1/10 oz 128.77
Chinese Panda - 1/20 oz 64.38
Mexican 50 Peso 1499.68
Mexican 20 Peso 599.83
Mexican 10 Peso 299.91
Mexican 5 Peso 149.90
Mexican 2.5 Peso 75.01
Mexican 2 Peso 59.75
Austrian Ducat 140.91


Gold Bullion

Item Per Each
Credit Suisse (in assay card) - 1 oz 1271.88
Credit Suisse (with assay card) - 100 Gram 4042.20
Credit Suisse (with assay card) - 1 Kilo 40422.02
Pamp Suisse (in assay card) - 1oz 1271.88
Pamp Suisse (with assay card) - 100 Gram 4042.20
Pamp Suisse (with assay card) - 1 Kilo 40422.02
Perth Mint (in assay card) - 1 oz 1271.88
Generic One Ounce Bar/Round - (please call before sending) 1257.27


Platinum Coins

Item Per Each
American Eagle - 1oz 1546.96
American Eagle - 1/2oz 755.70
American Eagle - 1/4oz 377.85
American Eagle - 1/10oz 151.14
Canadian Maple Leaf - 1oz 1511.39
Chinese Panda - 1oz 1511.39


Platinum Bars/Rounds

Item Per Each
Credit Suisse (in assay card) - 1 oz 1511.39
Pamp Suisse (in assay card) - 1 oz 1511.39
Generic Bar/Round - 1 oz (please call before sending) 1511.39

You seriously need to do more exploring at multiple other online dealers to get a better overall view.

This outfit reminds me of the traveling gold shows that buy up idiots' bullion/scrap for pennies on the dollar.

[solid]

200 under spot for 1 oz of gold bullion.


sumncguy, I had to sell a couple of oz of au last year, one for preps, one for education. It gave me confidence doing so, I sold at spot, just under actually about $10 less than spot.

When you buy your ounces, know that when you sell you should get around spot for them. Don't accept less.

[JohnQPublic]

200 under spot for 1 oz of gold bullion.


sumncguy, I had to sell a couple of oz of au last year, one for preps, one for education. It gave me confidence doing so, I sold at spot, just under actually about $10 less than spot.

When you buy your ounces, know that when you sell you should get around spot for them. Don't accept less.


The best place to sell (if you can arrange it) is at shows. There is real competition there. Usually when I ask (what are you buying gold eagles for for instance) they say spot. If I walk into a local shop they may say 95% of spot in some cases.

[sumncguy]

More thanks .. fellas... two more entries in my note book !!

[mike88]

There is a thread on the GIM site, in the buy and sell section. A poster has collected some excellent deals from various magazines. 34.50 for SAE, free shipping. two us silver dollars, one peace, one morgan, 55.00, a deal for the 2011 silver wolf coin 34.00 shipped. 125 bucks for 3 and a half oz. silver. fwiw, dyood. MIKE

[sumncguy]

Sorry man .. whats the GIM site ??

[mike88]

Gold Is Money, another chat forum.

[sumncguy]

Ok thanks Ill check it out.

Did hit a few dealers yesterday ... explained what I wanted to do. 2 out of 3 didnt have anything ... junk or rolls available. The third did .. some operation this guys got .. store front walk in to a teller like window. Dude is armed. You can see all their stuff through the window and can understand why hes armed. Gold, Silver and money all over the place.

Anyway ... I got $10 face Franklin halves for 300 .. a mix of Roosevelt and Merc dimes for 168, 56 coins. Just solidifies the need for a scale (but seeing this guys operation I doubt he'd intentionally screw me).

Before buying I checked Apmex, Monarch, Providian and Bullion Direct. All wanted a few more bucks for the rolls. ... so what Im thinking is ... ordering online compared to locally is a wash ...

this particular guy is about 45 minutes from the house ... so gas is probably equal to shipping (maybe more) but whats nice is no paper trail to sumncguys front door.