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lapis
13th April 2011, 10:47 PM
I mentioned on another thread (http://gold-silver.us/forum/japan-earthquake-tsunami-and-nuclear-disaster/flashback-old-1997-article-called-worse-than-we-knew-or-let-them-drink-milk/msg212930/#msg212930) that some people in my local area want to get together and buy a geiger counter to measure radiation in food from all the supermarkets, and post the results so everyone can know.

Then this story comes along. Is it true? Or is it just an attempt to discourage people like us from finding out for ourselves how much radiation is out there? We were thinking of getting the Inspector brand (whenever it becomes available, that is!).

From Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-12/geiger-counters-to-find-radiation-in-meals-may-be-meaningless-.html):

Geiger counters are probably ineffective for consumers in detecting hazardous levels of radiation in food and water at home, scientists, professors and device makers said.

Large samples should be tested in laboratory-like settings to obtain results, said Joseph Rotunda, who heads the radiation measurement division at toolmaker Thermo Fisher Scientific Inc. Determining whether food, water or milk is safe also requires expert knowledge and more sophisticated equipment than the typical devices sold online, said Atsushi Katayama, a member of the Japan Society for Analytical Chemistry.

“Just pointing a measuring device at your food before dinner is pretty much meaningless,” said Katayama, who has a doctorate in analytical chemistry from Hokkaido University. “Tap water and fish, for example, require special handling, isolation and concentration to get meaningful readings.”

Geiger counters offered as far away as Germany have sold out after the natural disaster that crippled Japan last month led to the world’s worst nuclear crisis since Chernobyl. Tokyo Electric Power Co. said yesterday its Fukushima Dai-Ichi plant, which has withstood hundreds of aftershocks since the March 11 magnitude-9 earthquake, may spew more radiation than the 1986 incident before the crisis is contained.

A sample for emergency testing should be at least 5 kilograms (11 pounds) or 5 liters (1.3 gallons), according to instructions from Japan’s Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare. The manual advises against using Geiger-Muller devices, known as Geiger counters, for measurements in food and drink because of their low sensitivity to gamma radiation.

Plasma Mass Spectrometers

The ministry recommends using tools known as scintillation counters to detect Iodine-131 in milk and vegetables, while devices called “inductively coupled plasma mass spectrometers” should be used to trace uranium. Detecting the radioactive material strontium requires nitric acid and dehydrated samples that are turned to ash over a 24-hour period in temperatures exceeding 400 degrees Celsius (752 degrees Fahrenheit), according to the manual.

“Various types of radiation require different kinds of equipment,” said Katayama. “It’s safe to rely on government data” because the findings are closely watched by the international community, he said.

Supermarkets and convenience stores across Tokyo struggled to fill shelves with supplies in the initial weeks of the crisis after the detection of elevated iodine levels in water and food triggered bulk buying even as the government said the health risks are minimal. Companies including Morgan Stanley began shipping water to their Tokyo offices from Hong Kong.

Unsafe Water

Since March 23, water radiation readings in Tokyo have fallen below levels considered unsafe, even for infants, according to the city’s Bureau of Waterworks. In the past month, the capital’s government ordered plants to step up filtering efforts and handed out about 240,000 bottles of water.

Seafood can require up to two years of monitoring because radioactive materials can take longer to reach larger fish such as Japanese sea bass, Katayama said. Even with the proper equipment and environment, making sense of the readings involves calculating the dosage per measure over time, he said.

“Just to know what the radiation levels are in your home, it’s relatively straightforward, but when you get to measuring it in food, milk and soil it gets much more complicated,” according to Rotunda. “That I don’t recommend at all.”

Soaring Radiation Readings

The March 11 earthquake and ensuing tsunami disabled cooling systems at the Fukushima plant. The build-up of pressure caused hydrogen explosions that damaged at least three reactors, leaking radiation. U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Chairman Gregory Jaczko said at senate hearing yesterday that the nuclear station has yet to stabilize.

Readings in Tokyo soared more than 20-fold and reached 0.809 microsieverts an hour on March 15, compared with 0.0338 microsieverts before the earthquake, according to the Tokyo Metropolitan Institute of Public Health. The highest level was still below 1/100th of the radiation dose from a single chest X- ray.

German Geiger counter suppliers including Conrad Electronic SE and Graetz Strahlungsmesstechnik GmbH sold out of the devices in the week following the earthquake. Conrad is selling Geiger counters for 299 euros ($432) to 499 euros while the devices cost as much as 3,000 euros at Graetz.

People looking to measure air pollution in their homes and neighborhoods should expect to spend about $400 for a Geiger counter, said Wade Allison, a physics professor at Oxford University and author of “Radiation and Reason.”

Needing Reassurance

“People need genuine reassurance,” said Allison. “They should note that no harmful effects including cancer have been confirmed for doses below 100 milliSieverts.”

Buyers should chose an instrument that comes with clear instructions for interpreting results and is sensitive enough to measure background radiation, or about 0.01 microSieverts, Allison and Katayama said. Geiger counters with a digital display and ability to save a log of the results are easier to use and preferable to devices featuring analog screens with moving needles, they said.

Before taking measurements, users should shield the instrument in plastic to prevent contamination and determine background radiation levels, said Motoko Koyama, a spokeswoman at the Tokyo Metropolitan Industrial Technology Research Institute.

Poor ventilation, concrete walls in underground locations and proximity to granite and mobile phones can distort readings, Koyama and Katayama said. Measurements are best taken at a distance of 1 centimeter (0.4 inch), moving the device about 2 to 3 centimeters per second, Koyama said.

“With so many Internet sites offering up-to-date radiation readings, does it really make sense to spend all that money?” Katayama said. “You can buy a 100,000 yen ($1,190) device, but I doubt you will get the price’s worth without expert knowledge.”

Mouse
13th April 2011, 11:21 PM
Japanese talking head who is not a radiation expert advises "don't worry be happy"

Check.

Antonio
13th April 2011, 11:43 PM
“People need genuine reassurance,” said Allison. “They should note that no harmful effects including cancer have been confirmed for doses below 100 milliSieverts.”


So, a piece of cheese that gives 10000 CPM which is equal to 100 milliSieverts is ok to eat? Background is 10-20 CPM.
Do you see just how insane these people are? Do you want to sit next to 10000 CPM, let alone eat it?

PS.Doses are not measured in sieverts or CPM, they are measured in rads or rems.

Ponce
14th April 2011, 12:29 AM
My food counter measures in Mr/hr, can't be more sensitive than that......I check mine with my old Coleman mantle and it goes crazy when anywhere near it.

pathotoko
14th April 2011, 04:55 AM
“People need genuine reassurance,” said Allison. “They should note that no harmful effects including cancer have been confirmed for doses below 100 milliSieverts.”


So, a piece of cheese that gives 10000 CPM which is equal to 100 milliSieverts is ok to eat? Background is 10-20 CPM.
Do you see just how insane these people are? Do you want to sit next to 10000 CPM, let alone eat it?

PS.Doses are not measured in sieverts or CPM, they are measured in rads or rems.


Exactly what you said. The author of the article fails to distinguish between ingested radiation and external exposure. Articles like this only mislead the public and reinforce our distrust of the talking heads.

Antonio
14th April 2011, 05:08 AM
“People need genuine reassurance,” said Allison. “They should note that no harmful effects including cancer have been confirmed for doses below 100 milliSieverts.”


So, a piece of cheese that gives 10000 CPM which is equal to 100 milliSieverts is ok to eat? Background is 10-20 CPM.
Do you see just how insane these people are? Do you want to sit next to 10000 CPM, let alone eat it?

PS.Doses are not measured in sieverts or CPM, they are measured in rads or rems.


Exactly what you said. The author of the article fails to distinguish between ingested radiation and external exposure. Articles like this only mislead the public and reinforce our distrust of the talking heads.

Guys,I screwed up again, math was my weakest subject. 100CPM is 1 microsievert, not one millisievert. So, 1 millisievert is 1000 microsieverts and 100000 CPM. So, 100 millisieverts is 10 million CPM while background is 10 CPM.
Wade Allison, a physics professor at Oxford University and author of “Radiation and Reason doesn`t know the difference between microsievert and millisievert. I`m in the arts business and a total physics moron, it took me some time to spot her mistake, I hope I can be forgiven for this because I just started learning this stuff. But she surely meant to say microsieverts.

PS. We need someone here ASAP who is not a science moron like me. I remember that on the day Chernobyl blew and people were enjoying the sunny weather, the military found spots in the town where it was 1-3 Roentgen. Background in Russia is measured in microroentgens, are they about the same as CPM? If yes, 1 roentgen is almost a 100000 times higher than normal. Keep in mind that the fuel and graphite pieces that lay outside of Chernobyl reactor were up to 30000 roentgens which instantly fries anyone who gets near it.
Nuclear hell has many degrees and many ways to measure it, I tell you...

G2Rad
14th April 2011, 06:13 AM
typical analytical chemist knows nothing about radiation, because radiation is in physics realm

Geiger Counters will detect Iodine-131 and Cesium-137.

Geiger Counters will not detect Strontium-90, Plutonium-239, Polonium-210

Notice that Iodine-131 and Cesium-137 and Strontium-90 were/are main radiation contaminants in Chernobil.

Cesium-137 and Strontium-90 remain chief radiation contaminants today.

Notice that despite you can not detect Strontium-90, you can still recognize contaminated article, because if it is contaminated with Strontium-90
it is likely to be contaminated with Cesium-137 too.

Antonio
14th April 2011, 06:20 AM
typical analytical chemist knows nothing about radiation, because radiation is in physics realm

Geiger Counters will detect Iodine-131 and Cesium-137.

Geiger Counters will not detect Strontium-90, Plutonium-239, Polonium-210

Notice that Iodine-131 and Cesium-137 and Strontium-90 were/are main radiation contaminants in Chernobil.

Cesium-137 and Strontium-90 remain chief radiation contaminants today.

Notice that despite you can not detect Strontium-90, you can still recognize contaminated article, because if it is contaminated with Strontium-90
it is likely to be contaminated with Cesium-137 too.

Strontium-90 undergoes beta-decay, do you think a Radalert would pick this up? It says in the manual that it registers gamma,beta and has an alpha window.

G2Rad
14th April 2011, 07:06 AM
Strontium-90 undergoes beta-decay, do you think a Radalert would pick this up? It says in the manual that it registers gamma,beta and has an alpha window.


I am not familiar with Radalert, but geiger with a thin window (cuvette) will pick up bettas above 30-40 keV

Strontium-90 emits at 500 keV and 2.2 MeV, so there should be no problems detecting it

with the window made out of mica geigers can pick up even high-energy alphas

mine does not have a cuvette/window, so I am restricted to gamma only

G2Rad
14th April 2011, 07:15 AM
also note that alphas (if ingested) are 20 times more potent than gammas in terms of bio damage they cause

the bio damage factor may rise as high 100 times if inhaled

So, it is not as important how many µSv you ingested, but of what kind of isotope (alpha, beta or gamma) and where did it go (liver, lungs, bone marrow)

Large Sarge
14th April 2011, 07:18 AM
also note that alphas (if ingested) are 20 times more potent than gammas in terms of bio damage they cause

the bio damage factor may rise as high 100 times if inhaled

So, it is not as important how many µSv you ingested, but of what kind of isotope (alpha, beta or gamma) and where did it go (liver, lungs, bone marrow)


say you are out cutting the grass, etc

normally I just "do it"

now I am going to be wearing a mask, because the inhaled radiation (from dust, lawn clippings, etc) is so much worse

is there a brand of surgical mask that you recommend?

osoab
14th April 2011, 07:28 AM
also note that alphas (if ingested) are 20 times more potent than gammas in terms of bio damage they cause

the bio damage factor may rise as high 100 times if inhaled

So, it is not as important how many µSv you ingested, but of what kind of isotope (alpha, beta or gamma) and where did it go (liver, lungs, bone marrow)


say you are out cutting the grass, etc

normally I just "do it"

now I am going to be wearing a mask, because the inhaled radiation (from dust, lawn clippings, etc) is so much worse

is there a brand of surgical mask that you recommend?




Damn LS, I hadn't even thought about grass clippings. Thanks.

G2Rad, any merit to this thought?

sirgonzo420
14th April 2011, 07:48 AM
also note that alphas (if ingested) are 20 times more potent than gammas in terms of bio damage they cause

the bio damage factor may rise as high 100 times if inhaled

So, it is not as important how many µSv you ingested, but of what kind of isotope (alpha, beta or gamma) and where did it go (liver, lungs, bone marrow)


say you are out cutting the grass, etc

normally I just "do it"

now I am going to be wearing a mask, because the inhaled radiation (from dust, lawn clippings, etc) is so much worse

is there a brand of surgical mask that you recommend?




Damn.

As if I don't hate mowing the grass enough already...

G2Rad
14th April 2011, 08:07 AM
Home depot (http://reviews.homedepot.com/1999/100653900/half-face-paint-and-pesticide-spray-respirator-assembly-mask-reviews/reviews.htm) mask will be better than nothing.

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/145/7b/7b457431-c787-40e2-93bd-342629d264e5_145.jpg

( if somebody asks pretend you have bad allergies. )

Long–term caesium-137 will become the principal contaminant

If it gets into soil it will get into you eventually no-matter-what.

it is water-soluble and acts as potassium in the food chain.

just to give a feeling of how toxic the stuff is

legal limit for Ce-137 is 250 becquerels per pound (of beef)

just one micro gram of Ce-137 contains approx. 3,000,000 Becquerels

which means that more than 0.00007 µg of Ce-137 per pound is above legal limit

2-3 µg ingested may be lethal within a month

therefore theoretically just one pound of Ce-137 is enough to kill the entire population of the USA

Note that as bad as Ce-137 is, Plutonium-239 is much worse.

G2Rad
14th April 2011, 08:29 AM
Some practical tips I have not seen anybody posted here.

1. Avoid mushrooms. For some reasons mushrooms accumulate radionuclides like crazy.
2. Half glass of red wine every evening. There were studies done, suggesting that red wine may exasperate extraction of radionuclides from the body.

Ponce
14th April 2011, 09:48 AM
LOL RAD.......that wine bit is a good excuse to be drunk all the time........but, but, but officer, yes I was drinking but only because I don't want to die from the radiation.

First post of the day.................good morning to one and all.

G2Rad
14th April 2011, 10:23 AM
LOL RAD.......that wine bit is a good excuse to be drunk all the time........but, but, but officer, yes I was drinking but only because I don't want to die from the radiation.

First post of the day.................good morning to one and all.


red wine contains natural resveratrol (http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=resveratrol++radiation&aq=f&aqi=g2g-v1&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=8ed83d904c494d0) which eliminates radiation-caused toxic free radicals.

children can drink red grape juice instead of wine

There are new synthetic compounds being developed (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/157240.php) based on the same principle, "which could be used to prevent radiation-induced injuries to kidneys, lungs, skin, intestinal tract and brains of radiological terrorism victims.

keehah
14th April 2011, 10:34 AM
Needing Reassurance

“People need genuine reassurance,” said Allison. “They should note that no harmful effects including cancer have been confirmed for doses below 100 milliSieverts.”

Technically she may be right. Since she includes no dose rate (time) we would have to assume she means 100 milliSieverts in a lifetime.

Problem is residents just outside the evacuation zone may be getting 100 milliSieverts per month. 12 times the rate that causes noticeable increases in cancer.

So it is causing harmful effects including cancer. In fact it is 1/50th the dose that would kill half the population.

And we are still not counting those unlucky enough to inhale a significantly large radioactive particle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-12722435

100 mSv/yr Lowest level at which any increase in cancer is clearly evident.

350 mSv/lifetime Criterion for relocating people after Chernobyl accident

5,000 mSv single dose Would kill about half those receiving it within a month

Buddha
14th April 2011, 11:02 AM
What about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcXIEYq9vg

G2Rad
14th April 2011, 12:37 PM
Home depot (http://reviews.homedepot.com/1999/100653900/half-face-paint-and-pesticide-spray-respirator-assembly-mask-reviews/reviews.htm) mask will be better than nothing.

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/145/7b/7b457431-c787-40e2-93bd-342629d264e5_145.jpg

( if somebody asks pretend you have bad allergies. )


This one (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202078789/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053#BVRRWidgetID) offers more protection for less $$$

P100 is the best you can get

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/7d/7d1ab9ff-11cd-4fb8-96f3-c1412b7d3801_300.jpg

gunDriller
14th April 2011, 01:02 PM
is there a brand of surgical mask that you recommend?

a professional dust mask, like you can buy at a hardware store, something a professional painter would wear.

they look like gas masks.

if you are serious about protecting yourself, those little disposable masks don't stop much, airborne particles still have plenty of room to get into your mouth and lungs. the radiation we are talking about is comparable to smoke - bigger particles would have fallen out of the atmosphere before reaching the US.

G2Rad
14th April 2011, 01:13 PM
What about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBcXIEYq9vg


no change in radiation rate was detected by government (http://www.epa.gov/radiation/rert/radnet-pittsburgh-bg.html)
:sarc:

osoab
14th April 2011, 03:38 PM
Home depot (http://reviews.homedepot.com/1999/100653900/half-face-paint-and-pesticide-spray-respirator-assembly-mask-reviews/reviews.htm) mask will be better than nothing.

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/145/7b/7b457431-c787-40e2-93bd-342629d264e5_145.jpg

( if somebody asks pretend you have bad allergies. )

Long–term caesium-137 will become the principal contaminant

If it gets into soil it will get into you eventually no-matter-what.

it is water-soluble and acts as potassium in the food chain.

just to give a feeling of how toxic the stuff is

legal limit for Ce-137 is 250 becquerels per pound (of beef)

just one micro gram of Ce-137 contains approx. 3,000,000 Becquerels

which means that more than 0.00007 µg of Ce-137 per pound is above legal limit

2-3 µg ingested may be lethal within a month

therefore theoretically just one pound of Ce-137 is enough to kill the entire population of the USA

Note that as bad as Ce-137 is, Plutonium-239 is much worse.


G2Rad,

Are you going to be wearing a dust mask as you do any work outside?

Even if we do wear the dust mask, are we going to have to burn our clothes and shower before walking inside?

What about any meat products or vegetables? That will be hitting the food chain shortly in larger quantities.

I've had a few hours of mowing to contemplate a few things. Those of us in the corn belt, would be hard pressed not to have any dust blowing around us on a windy dry day. Is it dust mask forever?

TIA.

gunDriller
14th April 2011, 03:50 PM
http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/300/7d/7d1ab9ff-11cd-4fb8-96f3-c1412b7d3801_300.jpg

that's quite stylish, in a metrosexual Darth Vader sort of way.

is it available with blue filters instead of pink ? 8)

maybe if people do end up having to stay indoors to avoid radiation rain ... well, seems like that always tends to produce a surge in birth rates 9 months later.

just think ... a whole generation of children conceived because Dad was afraid to go golfing and Mom didn't want to play tennis in the radiation rain.

it makes the future seem as it is portrayed in the Matrix - dark, dirty, cloudy & stormy skies.

Serpo
14th April 2011, 04:00 PM
Its a bit late isnt it...........
http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/food-chain-breach-radioactive-sludge-used-for-fertilizer-on-farms/