I'm fascinated by this poker story and how it's waking people up

[dys]

Very general background, personal and general:
The movie Rounders came out, then ESPN picked up the World Series of Poker and an unknown won it. Chris Moneymaker was his name. The poker boom was born. Online sites like Partypoker, Pacificpoker, Ultimatebet, and Pokerstars were launched. Fulltilt poker came later. At first, the games were incredibly soft and anyone with half a brain could beat them. I used to fold my way into the money in what is called 'sit and gos'. I would also play in what is called 'multi tournaments' while reading a book! The games were so easy I would often cash just playing very standard, ABC, tight poker. It really was easy money. Eventually word got out and the games got tougher. I decided to get serious and study up. I did and eventually decided to play fulltime. That was a short experiment; through a fluke I had an ex girlfriend rob me of my entire bankroll in one shot. Disgusted, I quit. By the time I got back into it the games were MUCH tougher and it wasn't worth it to me to play seriously anymore. But I continued to play for fun occasionally and watch. A lot of the guys I played with back then still play today, some of them have gotten very wealthy and others earn a good living.
A few years back, rumors started that the government wanted to criminalize online poker. Nobody in the poker community took it seriously. Anybody that expressed concern on the forums was ridiculed as paranoid. "This is the USA" "Land of the free" "Never going to happen". There was a law passed, called the UGIEA. It appeared at first blush to be aimed at sports gambling and not poker. Then the owners of Partypoker were arrested. They cut a deal and exited the US market, but Pokerstars took their place and it seemed like online poker was stronger than ever. One of the ways to deposit and cash out on the sites was a company called Neteller. They were prosecuted and many had their bankrolls tied up for a year. But other
ways were found to do the same thing. Gift cards, bank accounts, checks, western union, these were all used to deposit and withdraw funds. Little by little, the options were taken away by government encroachment. Probably 2 years ago, people started showing up on the forums complaining that FBI agents were visiting their houses and giving them a hard time about poker transactions. Banks started closing peoples accounts and hassling them. Then, checks from the poker companies themselves started bouncing. It wasn't that the checks were no good, it was that the processors were being seized by government agents.
What I witnessed throughout this these gradual steps was a softening of obstinance in the poker community. Each step had more and more people waking up to the reality of tyranny and oppression. Then, the death blow- the last remaining US online site owners were indicted by the DOJ.
This was a couple of days ago.

What happens when thousands of people have their livelihoods stolen from them like this? They wake up. People are talking revolution in their circles, I've never seen anything like it. Threads about the NWO, Masons, conspiracy, 9-11, police state. Generating plenty of spirited debate. Mods trying to stifle it, but too many people too aware and closed threads just start again and let me tell you, it's the most encouraging thing I've seen in a long, long time.

dys

[Ares]

dys,

Same here, I made a comment in another thread about my 2 neighbors I tried to get them to diversify and buy some physical a couple years ago only to get laughed at. Last Monday one of my neighbors came over knocked on the door and wanted to talk about buying some Silver. While outside my other neighbor came over and was talking about this country is just going to shit, and that he is arming himself and preparing for the worst. It was like I was on GSUS, suffice it to say I went with my neighbor for his first buy, and we all started talking home / neighborhood defense.

Weird times indeed.

[dys]

dys,

Same here, I made a comment in another thread about my 2 neighbors I tried to get them to diversify and buy some physical a couple years ago only to get laughed at. Last Monday one of my neighbors came over knocked on the door and wanted to talk about buying some Silver. While outside my other neighbor came over and was talking about this country is just going to shit, and that he is arming himself and preparing for the worst. It was like I was on GSUS, suffice it to say I went with my neighbor for his first buy, and we all started talking home / neighborhood defense.

Weird times indeed.


On some of the mainstream forums I see threads about stuff we discussed on GIM1 3 years ago. They'll get here if they are there.

dys

[Ponce]

As you all know I started to preach, what is to come, back in 2000 when I moved from CA to OR and it took only 11 years for most people to wake up, when I say "most" I don't mean from the general public but rather those that little by little joined our group........now they want "more" silver when is to late, kind of funny when I think that with 350 rounds of silver I could buy a new car.....however......my 20 years old Toyota will do just fine.

[dys]

One interesting thing is that a lot of these guys are talking about moving to other countries. One thing I did not know is that it seems like it's a pretty difficult thing to do. There are a lot of people that have already done it, or are in the process of trying to do it. The consensus seems to be that Americans are not welcome in other countries.

dys

[dys]

A country is defined as a body politic. It is a group of people. There may or not be territory associated with that body politic.

The way I relate it is this:

Back in 1868 in July your ancestors were sitting quietly at home enjoying the security of their own individual countries when suddenly (and with malice aforethought I might add) congress decided the United States needed a 14th amendment. By doing so a new body politic was formed and therefore a new country was formed.

Nobody really had to move anywhere .. Virtual reality came to them... And to move back you really don't need to move beyond sea.


Irrelevant in this case Palani. The sites themselves will no longer let people that live in the geographic location of USA play unless they establish new resisdency somewhere else. New residency according to the sites means they need a bank account in a foreign country, foreign ID, and utility bill to prove that they reside in the new location and are not just visiting. Now you are going to go into the Latin meaning of 'res' and talk about domicile, but please don't. The point is that these people can't earn their living anymore without being able to play online.

dys

[Olmstein]

...back in 2000 when I moved from CA to OR...

The federal plane has no boundaries so a move from CA to OR is no move at all. Real shame you did not move from CA to Oregon.


I really enjoy these posts.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Every day new eyes are opened and we are that much closer to critical mass.

[Ponce]

dys?........I did have a small farm in Argentina that I lost because of a stupid lawyer......but...........I don't cry over spill milk but simply refill my glass........a "friend" of mine has a diplomatic passport from a foreign country that he already tested and it works just fine, it cost him only $18,000 and it claim him to be a counselor of "Special Reltations", what ever the hell that is...........you can do a simply search on line to buy one.

PS: I found out that there are about 236 counselors for this particular country running around hahahaahaha.

[Bullion_Bob]

dys,

Same here, I made a comment in another thread about my 2 neighbors I tried to get them to diversify and buy some physical a couple years ago only to get laughed at. Last Monday one of my neighbors came over knocked on the door and wanted to talk about buying some Silver. While outside my other neighbor came over and was talking about this country is just going to shit, and that he is arming himself and preparing for the worst. It was like I was on GSUS, suffice it to say I went with my neighbor for his first buy, and we all started talking home / neighborhood defense.

Weird times indeed.


Be careful talking to any of your neighbors about your potential wealth. They have a front row seat to scope out your property 24/7.

[ShortJohnSilver]

The consensus seems to be that Americans are not welcome in other countries.

dys


Human beings born in America are fine, however, they don't want to business with people who don't understand the local culture and society, AND, they don't want to enter into financial relationships with holders of USA passports in a way that might bring the DC kleptocrats to their attention. White guys from Australia, England, etc. are fine as those countries don't try to screw with finance going on outside their borders.

[Ares]

Be careful talking to any of your neighbors about your potential wealth. They have a front row seat to scope out your property 24/7.


Ohh believe me I know. They know I hold some, but have never seen it or how much or how little I have. My neighbor asked me as he was buying his first SAE ask how much I had. I responded rule number 1 is you don't tell anyone what you have. Not even me. I may know how much FRN's you have with you to spend today but I won't know what you will be getting or how much you may or may not get after today. That is for you and your family the way it should be. He said thanks for showing him and giving him the very helpful advice.

But I also have front row seats on their means, armaments, and abilities. It works both ways ;)

[Libertytree]

One interesting thing is that a lot of these guys are talking about moving to other countries. One thing I did not know is that it seems like it's a pretty difficult thing to do. There are a lot of people that have already done it, or are in the process of trying to do it. The consensus seems to be that Americans are not welcome in other countries.

dys


The consensus is correct, especially when most of the Americans take their shitty, arrogant attitudes with them. I watched it first hand and I was disgusted, I can only imagine how the residents felt....I don't have to imagine though because they told me straight out their opinions of most American and European gringos. To this day I felt good in the fact that when I left Costa Rica they no longer called me a gringo. There were a few Americans there that called me an asshole. ;D

Dys, I also meant to ask you if those sentiments in the online poker world are still strong? And, if you might keep us up to date with the current tide of things there?

[dys]

The consensus is correct, especially when most of the Americans take their shitty, arrogant attitudes with them. I watched it first hand and I was disgusted, I can only imagine how the residents felt....I don't have to imagine though because they told me straight out their opinions of most American and European gringos. To this day I felt good in the fact that when I left Costa Rica they no longer called me a gringo. There were a few Americans there that called me an asshole. ;D
Dys, I also meant to ask you if those sentiments in the online poker world are still strong? And, if you might keep us up to date with the current tide of things there?




I've never seen a group of people so large so pissed in my life. A little more info: around the time Party Poker pulled out of the US market, the poker players organized (the group is called the PPA or something like that). Letter writing campaigns, marches, phone calls, lobbying, the whole nine. The interesting thing is that the group position is that THEY WERE WILLING TO PAY TAXES and they had quite a bit of money behind them, too. Also, the major poker sites are no joke- they literally turned profits in the billions the last couple of years. So a very common thought process of the players went something like this-

1. The US stands to gain a ridiculous amount of tax revenue if they work something out with the sites.
2. The players and the sites are willing to play ball.
3. The players and the sites have the money to grease the politicians and swing a back room deal that makes sense for everyone, so it's just a matter of time before it gets done.

Keep in mind that this is an interesting subset of people. They might not have been/are the most aware, but they aren't dummies. You don't make it in poker without intelligence (maybe back in the day, but not now). Now that DDay has come and the worst case scenario has materialized, these people are insane with anger. Not only that, they are starting to pull back the curtain. Remember, a lot of them used to play 8 hours a day and post on 2+2 in their spare time. Now they are spending 100% of their time trying to uncover why a country that is supposed to be a bastion of freedom would waste mega resources on prosecuting the owners of foreign corporations engaged in poker; yet the criminals from Goldman Sachs are ignored.

dys

[Ponce]

I used to play with funny money in the comp and was up around $178,000, got bored with it and quit.........however........in real life I am down about $800.00 in ten years, not bad for having fun.

[Olmstein]

So, I wonder if the feds will be standing by at the WSOP this year to seize any entry fees put up by these sites. That could cut the main event field in half this year.

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

Raises all sorts of interesting questions, such as, if this "gambling" was always illegal, then are the funds won or lost illegal also?


i.e. I started with $5 but now I'm up $50,000 - if these are "ill gotten gains" then do I need to revert back to my original $5? What about individuals who lost big, do they no longer owe because it was never legal?

Just thinking out loud.

[Son-of-Liberty]

So do we know why the feds are going after these sites? What's their agenda? What do they have to gain? Seems like they are pissing a lot of people off.

[Book]

So do we know why the feds are going after these sites?



http://www.jewishjournal.com/images/bloggers_auto/adelson1.jpg

Sheldon called the FBI to stop this non-kosher gambling.

[dys]

So do we know why the feds are going after these sites? What's their agenda? What do they have to gain? Seems like they are pissing a lot of people off.


I'll speculate. There are a significant number of people that made their living this way before DDay. These people typically worked 30-35 hours a week. No commute time. No boss to tell them what to do. Some of them played a lot of live poker, too...which means they dealt in cash. Bottom line: too much free time on their hands to figure out what is going on with the world, too much self reliance and not enough dependence on the system.
Another factor is the losing players. If you are a government agent, do you want gambling losers paying a 5% vig to a for profit website or do you want them paying a 40% vig to government for scratch tickets and lottery? If you are a losing gambler would you rather lose your 100 bucks in a week or an hour? Government couldn't compete with those 'prices', so they are eliminating competition.

dys

[Cobalt]

So if the Feds took over these sites and have confiscated the money, how long before Income Tax audits begin too happen?

Probably won't take an accountant long to figure out who reported winnings and who didn't and the bad part is they will be able to count all winnings, not just the ones that are over a certain amount like happen when you play at a casino.

[crazychicken]

LT::::You are right on with the Costa Rica experience. When th elocals stop calling you GRINGO and start using your name or moniker---you have been accepted as an equal.

In Honduras I was called Grande Pablo, by the Hondos.

CC





One interesting thing is that a lot of these guys are talking about moving to other countries. One thing I did not know is that it seems like it's a pretty difficult thing to do. There are a lot of people that have already done it, or are in the process of trying to do it. The consensus seems to be that Americans are not welcome in other countries.

dys


The consensus is correct, especially when most of the Americans take their shitty, arrogant attitudes with them. I watched it first hand and I was disgusted, I can only imagine how the residents felt....I don't have to imagine though because they told me straight out their opinions of most American and European gringos. To this day I felt good in the fact that when I left Costa Rica they no longer called me a gringo. There were a few Americans there that called me an asshole. ;D

Dys, I also meant to ask you if those sentiments in the online poker world are still strong? And, if you might keep us up to date with the current tide of things there?

[dys]

So if the Feds took over these sites and have confiscated the money, how long before Income Tax audits begin too happen?

Probably won't take an accountant long to figure out who reported winnings and who didn't and the bad part is they will be able to count all winnings, not just the ones that are over a certain amount like happen when you play at a casino.


Tax law when it comes to gambling winnings is very vague and muddled. For instance, if you win a tournament for $100, but you don't withdraw the money, did you really win? Or if you sit down at 2/4 table 'sky' and win $100, but at 2/4 table 'blue' you lose $105, is that a net loss of $5? This applies in the real world when someone cashes for say $10k, then gathers 10k worth of losing scratch tickets to demonstrate an offset to his winnings. Outside of all the questions pertaining to offset, I can tell you definitively that the vast majority of winning online poker players pay taxes. The prevailing sentiment in the community seems to be that winning poker players are prime targets for tax evasion charges, so why give the government an opportunity to blow up a good thing? The typical pro earns over 100k, so these people tend to have something to lose.

dys

[Libertytree]

LT::::You are right on with the Costa Rica experience. When th elocals stop calling you GRINGO and start using your name or moniker---you have been accepted as an equal.

In Honduras I was called Grande Pablo, by the Hondos.

CC





One interesting thing is that a lot of these guys are talking about moving to other countries. One thing I did not know is that it seems like it's a pretty difficult thing to do. There are a lot of people that have already done it, or are in the process of trying to do it. The consensus seems to be that Americans are not welcome in other countries.

dys


The consensus is correct, especially when most of the Americans take their shitty, arrogant attitudes with them. I watched it first hand and I was disgusted, I can only imagine how the residents felt....I don't have to imagine though because they told me straight out their opinions of most American and European gringos. To this day I felt good in the fact that when I left Costa Rica they no longer called me a gringo. There were a few Americans there that called me an asshole. ;D

Dys, I also meant to ask you if those sentiments in the online poker world are still strong? And, if you might keep us up to date with the current tide of things there?



I was pelo largo, "long hair"...now they would probably call me barba de plata, "silver beard", because I cut off all the hair.

[osoab]

Justice: Online poker players to get refunds, sites' future still in doubt (http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/157259-online-poker-players-get-refunds-but-future-still-in-doubt)


The Department of Justice reached an agreement with two online poker sites Wednesday that will allow users to recover funds from their accounts, but the future of the industry remains very much in doubt thanks to the Obama administration's "Black Friday" crackdown.

U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara announced the government has entered into domain-name use agreements with PokerStars and Full Tilt so users can recover funds they had given to the sites. The move should help quell the growing backlash from users of the sites who have been unable to access their money since Friday.

"No individual player accounts were ever frozen or restrained, and each implicated poker company has at all times been free to reimburse any player's deposited funds," Bharara said in a statement.

more at the link.

[Horn]

Gambling online, and the spirit of non-extradition is still alive & very much well in Costa Rica.

Most have their own banking & credit checking services.

[dys]

UPDATE:

A lot of the US players are trying to move to other countries. They are finding that it is very difficult. Ever try to convince an unaware person of the tyranny of the US and have them say: "Why don't you move to another country?" Now I have the answer. The other countries, for the most part, won't have us. There are ways to do it, but nothing easy and certainly nothing cheap.

dys

[Ponce]

Well, you "gringos" were lucky because you were called those name in foreign countries but when they call you that in your own country then that SUCKS, I was born in Cuba of a Cuban father and raise there but because of my American mother, white skin and green eyes I was calle "El Americanito"... the little American.

First post of the day.............good morning to one and all.

[Horn]

UPDATE:

A lot of the US players are trying to move to other countries. They are finding that it is very difficult. Ever try to convince an unaware person of the tyranny of the US and have them say: "Why don't you move to another country?" Now I have the answer. The other countries, for the most part, won't have us. There are ways to do it, but nothing easy and certainly nothing cheap.

dys


I was surprised to the extent of this bust too, I think every one on the planet is laying low to avoid another like it.

They did end up seeking the the money flows out of the U.S. to here in Costa Rica, where hundreds of innocent Ricans were out of a job the in the next weeks.

And major accounts frozen.

[Horn]

Panel: Casino Industry's Future Is Online

Internet gambling is the future of the casino industry, whether it's approved at the federal or state level, a panel of online and brick-and-mortar casino executives said Tuesday.

And a New Jersey lawmaker predicted there will be a ballot question next year asking his state's residents whether to amend the state Constitution to allow Internet gambling.

Speaking at the East Coast Gaming Congress, executives from two online betting organizations and Caesars Entertainment said the Internet provides the gambling industry its best opportunity for growth. But the prospect of a federal law permitting it appears dim in light of recent federal raids on online gambling sites.

"You're not going to stop the Internet," said Jan Jones, senior vice president of government relations for Caesars Entertainment. "You can regulate it, you can put in protections, but it's going to exist."

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=13676809

[gunDriller]

dys,

Same here, I made a comment in another thread about my 2 neighbors I tried to get them to diversify and buy some physical a couple years ago only to get laughed at. Last Monday one of my neighbors came over knocked on the door and wanted to talk about buying some Silver. While outside my other neighbor came over and was talking about this country is just going to shit, and that he is arming himself and preparing for the worst. It was like I was on GSUS, suffice it to say I went with my neighbor for his first buy, and we all started talking home / neighborhood defense.

Weird times indeed.


you're lucky.

you now have the foundation for some exceptional home security. i know a retired probation officer ... who still works as a probation officer ... who has a video camera set up, pointed at his neighbor's house, 24/7. his neighbor has the same set-up.

the video loops after 24 hours, i.e. is written over.

anyway, it's one of the better neighbor-cooperation security set-ups i've seen. anybody touches either of their houses, it'll all be on candid camera.

i'm not sure what happens at night in their situation, though.