WHY I HATE COPS--reason #487...

[freespirit]

and people wonder why cops get such a bad rep...
idiots....

OPP raids wrong apartment, holds innocent man at gunpoint

20/04/2011 11:46:00 AM

by Sameer Vasta
The mistake made by the Ontario Provincial Police shows us that our police need better processes and systems to help them make better decisions in the field.

A man in Arnprior, Ontario was woken up this past Friday by a stun grenade smashing through his window and by a group of armed individuals pointing a gun at him while he was dragged out of bed. While it may sound like a scary home invasion out of a thriller movie, it was instead a case of mistaken identity by the Ontario Provincial Police.

Steven Carrigan was pulled out of bed, naked, by an OPP tactical squad who were supposed to be arresting a neighbor on charges of possession of marijuana and a prohibited weapon. Instead, they got the apartment number wrong, exploding a stun grenade on Carrigan's son's bed — luckily, his son was not in bed at the time — and holding him at gunpoint before realizing their error.

The neighbor was later arrested, and the OPP sent out a press release claiming that the mission was a success. The police have now admitted that in fact, the officers did "slip up."

This is clearly a case of error through incompetence. If you have 20 people on an advanced tactical squad participating in a take-down, you would expect one of them would read the warrant, at some point in their "tactical" planning, to make sure they were targeting the right home. (If the warrant was wrong, then we have a whole other level of incompetence — the judge that issued the warrant should be held to task for their mistake.)

Another area of concern is the use of the stun grenade. The grenade exploded on Carrigan's son's bed, and had the son been asleep at the time, it could have caused significant injury to him, apart from the property damage it already did cause. But even if the police had targeted the right apartment, wouldn't the grenade just alert the suspect that something was going on? If the suspect was holding a weapon, wouldn't shooting a stun grenade through a window increase the likelihood of violence or an armed standoff, potentially harming innocent bystanders?

All in all, Carrigan escaped without physical harm (though the emotional damage may be lasting), and I'm sure the OPP will compensate for the property damages. The tactical squad's actions were not done maliciously, but they were also not done with the rigour that one would expect from our law enforcement officers.

In the end, this incident should not lead to severe punishment, but instead to better training and process; it should lead to a review of how the OPP conducts home take-downs and what kind of force it uses, and a better system for verifying tactical information before taking action — hopefully avoiding the possibility that this kind of event happens again.

http://news.sympatico.ca/oped/coffee-talk/opp_raids_wrong_apartment_holds_innocent_man_at_gu npoint/2063d2d6

[SHTF2010]

The police have now admitted that in fact, the officers did "slip up."


i hope he's thinking about a lawsuit

[freespirit]

i sure would be....

[skid]

In a lawsuit the tax payers would pay. It's too bad the people responsible couldn't be named directly in the lawsuit and forced to pay with their own money, like you and I would be forced to if we made a mistake like that...

[SHTF2010]

In a lawsuit the tax payers would pay. It's too bad the people responsible couldn't be named directly in the lawsuit and forced to pay with their own money, like you and I would be forced to if we made a mistake like that...


take a quick out of court settlement
stash the money somewhere
and then do an interview with the media and name names

[Ash_Williams]

In a lawsuit the tax payers would pay. It's too bad the people responsible couldn't be named directly in the lawsuit and forced to pay with their own money, like you and I would be forced to if we made a mistake like that...

Well the tax payers have kept up support of marijuana and gun laws, so really they are responsible. They're the ones who want cops busting in a place because there's weed and a gun.

[solid]

In a lawsuit the tax payers would pay. It's too bad the people responsible couldn't be named directly in the lawsuit and forced to pay with their own money, like you and I would be forced to if we made a mistake like that...


Actually the family could sue the individual officers, in civil court. However, by suing the department they all fall under would be a better lawsuit, ie more payout, etc.

A lot of cops have individual insurance policies against civil lawsuits for this reason. So, the money paid out isn't out of the officer's pocket, but from the insurance companies.

One worst things about being a cop, is going to work one day and making a mistake that could ruin your life, and your families life. That's why they have insurance.

Not justifying anything, just point that out as an understanding. Cops are put in serious situations daily where a small screw-up can lead to a bigger one...cascade failure.

Human nature, people make mistakes. This mistake is a pretty bad one though...should have never happened. Thankfully nobody was injured.

[Awoke]

Cops are absolutely useless to me. They serve absolutely no purpose at all, as far as serving and protecting the public.

They do nothing more than supress the citizens, exert testosterone-driven alpha dominance and collect taxes from the middle class.

Give me the right to have my own means to protect myself, and stay the fuck away from me. I don't need them for anything at all. I never call then for assistance. The only time I would consider it is if I was in a situation where you are forced to operate within the parameters of the establishment, but even then I would always try to find another way.

I can't stand cops. Thanks for posting the article, Freespirit.

[bellevuebully]

That should keep the SIU (Special Investigations Unit) busy sweeping that under the carpet for a while.

[bellevuebully]

One worst things about being a cop, is going to work one day and making a mistake that could ruin your life, and your families life. That's why they have insurance.



What about making mistakes that ruin other people's lives? Cops chose to be cops. Victims don't chose to be victims. And they don't have insurance that covers cops killing or maiming family members.

Pffft.

[bellevuebully]

Human nature, people make mistakes. This mistake is a pretty bad one though...should have never happened. Thankfully nobody was injured.


You should design promo posters for the SUI.

[bellevuebully]

Cops are put in serious situations daily where a small screw-up can lead to a bigger one...cascade failure.



In the nuclear power plant where I work, we put on thousands and thousands of permits to protect workers from getting killed. Our rate of failure is minute compared to the mistakes made in issuing warrents. Why can't they have the same track record?

[bellevuebully]

Yes, I disagree with your whole post.

[Awoke]

One worst things about being a cop, is going to work one day and making a mistake that could ruin your life, and your families life.

Solid, for the record, I like you.

(You're not a cop anymore, right?)

The worst thing about being a cop is going out and making a mistake that could ruin someone elses life. I have no pity for a pig that chooses to be a pig and goes out arrogantly putting people under his/her thumb.


Story one:

I have a friend that is a female. She had a boyfriend when she was a teenager. He boyfriend was abusive. He beat her up one night on the streets, and threw her down, smashing her head off the curb. A man and his wife saw it happening, and called the cops. They stuck around as witnesses. The cops showed up. It was clear that she has been beat up, and that the abusive boyfriend had smashed her head off the curb.

True to "Battered wife syndrome" form, she refused to charge him with assault. So the useless fucking pigs charged her with drinking in public, because she had had some beers at a party before he beat her up. They wanted to try to charge her with assault, but the witnesses said "Hey, that's not fair, and we will go to court over this", so they backed off.


Story two:

During the G20 summit in Toronto, and NWO pig busted a gentle young lady and charged her with assault, because she was blowing bubbles as a protest. He said "If one of those bubbles touches me, I'm charging you with assault, and he did.
Video search it. You'll find it.

So I know this OPP cop through another friend, and I ran into him at a party. I always present myself respectably with dealing with pigs, because it saves a lot of hassle. I tell him the story, and he had the nerve to justify it. I asked him how he could possbily see the rational behind it all, but he was all for it. Clamp down on the people.
He actually argued with me, insisting that indeed it is assault if a soap bubble touched that officer. Pretty sad.

[solid]

One worst things about being a cop, is going to work one day and making a mistake that could ruin your life, and your families life.

Solid, for the record, I like you.

(You're not a cop anymore, right?)


I really should have worded that better. My thoughts were...that if I had ruined an innocent person's life, it would ruin my life as well. Just from the heartbreak of it, as well the financial aspect.

No I am not a cop. I've taken a lot of heat on this forum because I was in the past. I don't take it personally, however my views from the 'other side' are different, because I can apply a lot of personal life experiences, situations I've been in, that have shaped my understanding on how things really work regarding law enforcement.

I've been in several, actually, many situations where I honestly believe God was looking out for me. By pure "luck" things worked out in my favor and the favor of others in those situations, because if they didn't...I don't even want to think about if they didn't actually.

[solid]

In the nuclear power plant where I work, we put on thousands and thousands of permits to protect workers from getting killed. Our rate of failure is minute compared to the mistakes made in issuing warrents. Why can't they have the same track record?


You are comparing apples and oranges. I agree stupid mistakes shouldn't happen, but the situations cops face are far too dynamic, too many variables, compared to your controlled environment.

Also, how many warrants are issued successfully every single day in every city in the nation? Hundreds perhaps, daily? Yet, you post one example here that distorts and blows the failure rate out of proportion.

[MAGNES]

Story one:


I have a lot of stories too, so do many others, many cops are uneducated and unreasonable.

Too many young cops too with no experience of any kind including basic customer service skills.
High school kids doing customer service jobs have more skills.

Reason and judgment is thrown out. Not all cops are like that, the problem is they lie for each
other and stick together, that is the biggest problem, supervisors, sergeants, etc, they don't
even do feedback from the public, they don't want to know, file papers and formal complaints
as they do " pr " , they serve and protect.

@ Solid, thanks for the feedback, don't worry we won't lynch you, ;D I didn't know that about you.

[MAGNES]

During the G20 summit in Toronto,


You Tube is full of videos from what happened, I watched quite few of them myself.

The cops were also beating up and searching reporters, they punched a female reporter in the face.

There is some funny stuff on TO, the Love Police was there, the UK guys, they got arrested, lol .

Some US alternate media were denied access to Canada, that I find totally ridiculous and telling.
I think Luke of We Are Change was denied entry among others less known.

Guaranteed at these events there is police from all over the world and intelligence agents watching
and working with the locals, learning how to suppress freedom even, they are not just there to
protect their own leaders.

[bellevuebully]

In the nuclear power plant where I work, we put on thousands and thousands of permits to protect workers from getting killed. Our rate of failure is minute compared to the mistakes made in issuing warrents. Why can't they have the same track record?


You are comparing apples and oranges. I agree stupid mistakes shouldn't happen, but the situations cops face are far too dynamic, too many variables, compared to your controlled environment.

Also, how many warrants are issued successfully every single day in every city in the nation? Hundreds perhaps, daily? Yet, you post one example here that distorts and blows the failure rate out of proportion.


Explain what is dynamic about finding the right address.

It is not apples and oranges. It's a fixed address. It doesn't move. Ask the guy who delivered my pizza last night.

[willie pete]

"A lot of cops have individual insurance policies against civil lawsuits for this reason. So, the money paid out isn't out of the officer's pocket, but from the insurance companies. "

Well that's a relief huh... :oo-->

"One worst things about being a cop, is going to work one day and making a mistake that could ruin your life, and your families life. That's why they have insurance. "

Yea, that'd have to be bad, a mistake that would ruin you or your familys life, forget about the innocent man, woman, or child that got killed because of your mistake :D


" Cops are put in serious situations daily where a small screw-up can lead to a bigger one...cascade failure. "

Probably makes it harder to cover-up too.... :D


"Human nature, people make mistakes. "

Yep, and innocent people get killed because of police "mistakes" :oo-->

[bellevuebully]

the problem is they lie for each
other and stick together,

QFT.

End of story.

If they want respect, earn it. Expose the dirty cops. Otherwise, they are complicate.

[Tumbleweed]

I don't know why they think they need to come in the middle of the night, kick the door down and hold a guy at gun point. They need to show up in the day time and knock on the door like anyone else >:(

[Awoke]

BB, you're right of course.

Really though, the thing that bothers me about this whole situation: WTF are they doing tossing a flashbang grenade in anyways? THey had 20 God-darned officers in riot gear there to arrest a single person. WTF is with the flashbang?

Public conditioning.

[bellevuebully]

Want to apply real life to police/public interaction? Here ya go:




A Toronto police officer inexplicably floors his gas pedal, speeds into an illegal right turn and runs down a grandmother, severing her brain stem and killing her instantly.

An OPP constable wearing a bulletproof vest and carrying a baton and pepper spray shoots and kills an intellectually challenged 59-year-old man holding a small pocket knife.

During a traffic stop near Canada's Wonderland, York Region officers rough up a small, 50-year-old accountant, breaking his arm and leaving him roadside.

A Peel Region police officer sucker-punches a handcuffed prisoner and breaks his jaw in two places.

Two teens chatting on the grass in a public park are run over by a Durham Region squad car, suffering extensive injuries.

All of these officers were quickly cleared by the Special Investigations Unit (SIU) — the provincial agency responsible for investigating serious injuries and deaths resulting from interactions between police and the public. All still work as police officers.

The Toronto Star investigated two decades of SIU cases. It found that police officers across the province are treated far differently than civilians when accused of shooting, beating and running over and killing people, some of them innocent bystanders.

Ontario's criminal justice system heavily favours police and gives officers breaks at every turn — from the SIU, which hardly ever charges officers, to prosecutors, juries and judges.

Where civilians causing similar damage are typically prosecuted, cops walk.

Even in the rare instances when officers are charged and convicted, they almost always avoid jail time.

The Star also found police officers' lack of preparation, reckless and ill-advised tactics, and tendency to use excessive force led to civilian injuries and deaths.

“(The SIU) doesn't charge anybody. It's all a waste of time,” said David Orbst, the short, unintimidating accountant whose arm was broken during a traffic stop by York Region police officers, including an officer Orbst identified as Const. Derek Cadieux. “If a (civilian) had done this to me, I point the finger and they get arrested.”

The head of the SIU, Ian Scott, defended his agency in an interview with the Star but said, “Police officers get all kinds of breaks in the (criminal justice) system.”

The Star found in many cases that the reckless actions of some police officers have tarnished the oft-stated mottos — “to serve and protect” or “leaders in community safety” — of police forces across the province.

In one case, Toronto Police Supt. Neale Tweedy, who was tasked with disciplining a constable who killed a bystander, said police officers must lead by example. He said “preventing property damage, injury and death is a core business function.”

The Star found the SIU is hampered by a justice system that heavily favours police, and has not done its job holding officers to this standard.

In its 20-year history, the SIU has conducted at least 3,400 investigations and laid criminal charges after only 95 of them, according to a Star analysis. The SIU does not track what happens to those it charges. But the Star has, and found only 16 officers have been convicted of a crime. Only three have seen the inside of a jail — as inmates.

“Two words on the (SIU) website are: Independent and rigorous. (But) it's just a farce organization,” says Emal Bariali, whose schizophrenic brother Elyas was shot dead by Durham police in 2005. “Seems to me like there are no consequences (for officers). Why would the police take the SIU seriously?”

The numbers should not surprise Scott. Four years before he took the helm in 2008, he said he had little faith in the agency's effectiveness given the constraints of the justice system.

In a presentation he made to a lawyers' conference in 2004, Scott, who once worked as a prosecutor, noted that police officers accused of using excessive force stood a less than one-in-five chance of facing the same level of justice as civilians accused of similar crimes.

“It is an ineffective use of state resources to investigate, charge and prosecute cases in which the high probability is ... acquittal,” Scott wrote in 2004.

He proposed a second option — give the SIU the power to send some suspect officers to the Ontario Civilian Policing Commission, an independent oversight agency, where they could be fined or fired. He said a commission verdict would act as a “deterrent” to police misconduct. But Scott's call went unanswered.

The SIU was created in 1990 after a series of police shootings of black civilians provoked community backlash and fear the incidents would be covered up by police-friendly investigations. In one case in 1988, a Peel Region officer shot and killed teenager Michael Wade Lawson as he drove a stolen car.

Supporters of the new agency, including the Toronto police chief of the day Bill McCormack, said the independent SIU would boost public confidence in police oversight. But community groups expressed concern that the unit, staffed by former police officers, would not be independent enough. Today, the SIU employs 54 full- and part-time investigators, 47 of whom are former police officers.

“While the SIU is far from perfect ... the alternative is to return to the police investigating the police, an option that has fallen into disfavour due to the conflict-of-interest issues,” SIU director Scott said.

The taxpayer-funded agency, which today has an annual budget of around $7 million, refused to cooperate with the Star investigation by providing short summaries of hundreds of investigations, internal reports the SIU writes after it concludes investigations, and other documents.

The Star, through police, court and civilian witness sources, built files on 700 SIU cases. In some cases, sources provided evidence collected during SIU investigations.

The Star found:

• The SIU missed or ignored crucial evidence in at least six cases.

• Officers are too quick to take aggressive action against civilians.

• A cozy relationship between police and prosecutors has allowed officers to avoid punishment.

• Police officers involved in an incident investigated by the SIU break a conduct rule by delaying writing their notes, and share the same lawyer, leaving victims worried officers are collaborating to get their story straight and prevent the SIU from learning the truth.

As a result, neither police nor victims believe the SIU can conduct the kind of independent, “rigorous” investigations it was set up for.

Some cases the Star reviewed involved innocent bystanders while others involved those with criminal records, histories of violence and a variety of backgrounds police often come into contact with in the course of their duties.

In 2006, Hafeez Mohamed was punched in the head, neck and shoulder eight to 10 times during an arrest by Durham Region police officer Prasanth Tella.

Responding to a report of an assault outside a house in Elmvale, Ont., OPP Const, Jeff Seguin arrived to talk with the suspect, Doug Minty, an intellectually challenged 59-year-old living with his mother. Minty moved toward Seguin and was shot dead.

The SIU did not conduct a thorough investigation and cleared Seguin, though his sketchy story failed to conclusively show that a fatal bullet was his only option. Minty's brother John said the family still does not understand why Doug was killed last summer.

“I think the family is entitled” to answers, John Minty said. “And the SIU investigation certainly didn't, and won't, provide us with those answers.”

Grandmother Mei Han Lee, 67, was not a suspect. She was walking home to help care for her autistic grandson when Toronto police officer Juan Quijada-Mancia sped into an illegal right turn, hit Lee and killed her instantly.

Lee's family says the SIU was eager to sweep the case into obscurity. The officer was not responding to an emergency call, and to this day neither the SIU nor Toronto Police have said where Quijada-Mancia was going in such a hurry on that February morning in 2005.

“She always obeyed the law. What was the officer doing?” asks Lee's daughter-in-law Rose Chen.

Police officers such as Quijada-Mancia can also face internal disciplinary hearings, which are conducted by superiors in their own force and carry softer punishments than those that could result from a criminal charge.

Quijada-Mancia was disciplined by the Toronto Police. He lost 40 hours' pay. It was in this decision that Supt. Tweedy stressed the importance of police officers being held to the same standard as civilians.

The Star found no accountability for incidents that caused civilian injuries and deaths. The SIU completes reports after investigations and then gives them to the Ministry of the Attorney General. But the victims and the public do not get to see the information.

Most of the police officers involved in incidents probed by the Star declined to be interviewed.

Durham Insp. Bruce Townley said officers are traumatized by incidents that result in death or injury.

“Contrary to what may be perceived, that we're all cowboys, we're human beings,” said Townley, whose force features in three cases reviewed by the Star. “These people are out to protect the public and protect themselves.”

The Star found that the virtual immunity police officers enjoy is not the SIU's fault alone. The agency faces obstacles that Scott knew well before he took over in 2008.

An officer investigated by the SIU benefits from a presumption of good character by jurors and judges.

In the rare instance when the SIU has laid charges, one of every four officers sees the charges dropped before trial, many others are acquitted, or, as has happened at least 10 times, an officer is found guilty before a judge spares him jail time. Some guilty police officers walk out of court with their record wiped clean.

Hamilton Police Const. Jason Williams was charged in 2002 with assault for kicking a handcuffed 57-year-old psychiatric resident of a group home in the head. Five fellow officers testified they saw Williams repeatedly punch and kick the man. Williams was convicted of assault, though the judge dismissed the more serious charge of assault causing bodily harm. Ian Scott was the prosecutor. At sentencing, he asked for jail time, but Williams received none.

Scott also prosecuted Niagara constable Michael Moore, found guilty in 2002 of breach of trust after he accepted oral sex from a woman in exchange for not issuing her a traffic ticket. Scott called Moore a “wolf in police uniform” and wanted him jailed for six to nine months. Moore got a year of house arrest. He has since resigned from the force.

Police trials, Scott said in an interview, are “very different” because many in the justice system view these as “occupational crimes” — the consequences of a dangerous job — as opposed to crimes committed by criminals.

Officers also enjoy stiff protection from the sturdy blue wall of their police force, insulation by scrappy lawyers working for unions with deep pockets, and typically a close working relationship with prosecutors.

Following a judge's criticism of this type of relationship, the SIU recently re-investigated and charged a Peel Region police officer with assault against Quang Hoang Tran.

Tran had been convicted of playing a role in a series of brutal home invasions, but the conviction was thrown out this year after an appeals court found Peel officers “beat him up” and “attempted to cover up their shocking conduct.”

Because of the behaviour of the police and prosecutor, a criminal walked free.

Though they are afforded special powers — to stop and arrest civilians, and carry a gun — officers enjoy some of the same protections as civilians when investigated.

Police officers at the centre of SIU probes do not have to give a statement to the agency — a right zealously protected by police lawyers and unions.

One well-known police lawyer, Gary Clewley, recently said in an article he wrote for a police union magazine that he has been tempted to tell so-called “subject officers” to “Shut the f--- up” before writing their notes, and talk to a lawyer.

As part of their internal disciplinary proceedings, police forces can compel officers to give statements, but the SIU is not entitled to that crucial evidence.

Now that Scott has the job he previously thought so impotent, a defence lawyer who has represented officers investigated by the SIU summed up Scott's untenable position this way: “Ian has the worst job in the province. Everyone hates him — the police, the community. No matter what he does he can't do anything right. Every decision he makes will be criticized for years.”

The powerful OPP union has sent out a newsletter accusing Scott of anti-cop bias.

Though the justice system heavily favours police, one Ontario judge was surprised that police officers complain of persecution when they are hardly ever charged. In 2001, when Justice John Ground threw out a $10 million malicious prosecution lawsuit brought by York Region officer Robert Wiche against the SIU, he said:

“There appeared to be on the part of certain police witnesses and certain police associations an almost Pavlovian reaction against a civilian agency (the SIU) investigating the conduct of police officers ... and against the idea that such an agency could conduct an investigation which could be fair to police officers,” the judge wrote.

“This is particularly surprising when ... in about 97 per cent of the cases, the investigation exonerates the subject officer.”

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/882189--are-these-cops-above-the-law?bn=1

[MAGNES]

I don't know why they think they need to come in the middle of the night, kick the door down and hold a guy at gun point. They need to show up in the day time and knock on the door like anyone else >:(


Thats a big issue everywhere, most of the people they go after are not going anywhere,
it's a big make work project for show in my opinion to justify their existence, PCR covers
this issue well, they get a lot of money from the FEDS for training and militarizing
themselves. Going after families like that give them away for what they are, power hungry,
greedy and cowardly.
http://www.vdare.com/roberts/all_columns.htm

[bellevuebully]

.

Really though, the thing that bothers me about this whole situation: WTF are they doing tossing a flashbang grenade in anyways? THey had 20 God-darned officers in riot gear there to arrest a single person. WTF is with the flashbang?



Why did they shoot the shoot the guy with the pocket knife in the above noted article??

Because they get away with it. DU-uhhhh. lol

[Libertytree]

On a similar though lesser note....Have yaw'll noticed that it now takes 2, 3 or 4 cop cars to pull over 1 vehicle? Is it just here? This used to be the exception to the rule, now it's the rule of thumb. When I 1st noticed it I thought maybe it was some kind of major bust going on, now I see it all the time...WTF? Have you seen this as well?

[bellevuebully]

On a similar though lesser note....Have yaw'll noticed that it now takes 2, 3 or 4 cop cars to pull over 1 vehicle? Is it just here? This used to be the exception to the rule, now it's the rule of thumb. When I 1st noticed it I thought maybe it was some kind of major bust going on, now I see it all the time...WTF? Have you seen this as well?


She could have a hairbrush concealed in her purse.

[solid]

Want to apply real life to police/public interaction? Here ya go:


You catch a guy, gun in hand, before he was going to kill someone. You are the covering officer, with a gun pointed at him. The officer who's life is in your hands doing the cuffing says "If he fucking moves, shoot him". There are a hundred people watching. What do you do?

You chase down a guy who broke into someone's home and beat the shit out of him. You are alone, he reaches for his back waistband. What do you do?

You show up to a public place where there's a 300 lb drunk guy, belligerent, who's pissed, shit, and thrown up on himself threatening other people. What do you do?

You rush into a house because you hear a woman screaming and blood on the door. As you enter, you don't see the guy standing behind the door holding a baseball bat. What do you do?

You get a call that there's a baby not breathing a few blocks away. How fast do you drive to get there?

You show up to chaos at a fast food joint. A crazy lady on drugs trashed the place, and is in the women's restroom going nuts. You search her for weapons, and almost get pricked by needle that she says "wasn't there".

You pull over a guy, you can tell he's tense before approaching the vehicle, something is off. All of a sudden, he bolts from the car. You chase him and find that he had a loaded AK sitting on the passenger seat. He was contemplating running of fighting.

I could go on and on.

Trying to say police work is not dynamic, my ass.

[Awoke]

On a similar though lesser note....Have yaw'll noticed that it now takes 2, 3 or 4 cop cars to pull over 1 vehicle? Is it just here? This used to be the exception to the rule, now it's the rule of thumb. When I 1st noticed it I thought maybe it was some kind of major bust going on, now I see it all the time...WTF? Have you seen this as well?



Yes. I had three marked and one unmarked cruisers pull me over for a missing muffler on the 407.
That's four cop cars. They take their highway robbery very seriously.

[bellevuebully]

Want to apply real life to police/public interaction? Here ya go:


You catch a guy, gun in hand, before he was going to kill someone. You are the covering officer, with a gun pointed at him. The officer who's life is in your hands doing the cuffing says "If he fucking moves, shoot him". There are a hundred people watching. What do you do?

You chase down a guy who broke into someone's home and beat the shit out of him. You are alone, he reaches for his back waistband. What do you do?

You show up to a public place where there's a 300 lb drunk guy, belligerent, who's pissed, shit, and thrown up on himself threatening other people. What do you do?

You rush into a house because you hear a woman screaming and blood on the door. As you enter, you don't see the guy standing behind the door holding a baseball bat. What do you do?

You get a call that there's a baby not breathing a few blocks away. How fast do you drive to get there?

You show up to chaos at a fast food joint. A crazy lady on drugs trashed the place, and is in the women's restroom going nuts. You search her for weapons, and almost get pricked by needle that she says "wasn't there".

You pull over a guy, you can tell he's tense before approaching the vehicle, something is off. All of a sudden, he bolts from the car. You chase him and find that he had a loaded AK sitting on the passenger seat. He was contemplating running of fighting.

I could go on and on.

Trying to say police work is not dynamic, my ass.


Would you care to point out where I said police work like you embellished above was not dynamic? I implied the execution of a non dynamic task such as getting the right address when serving a warrent was methodical and fairly straight forward. But the original question applies. Would you care to point it out?

You seem to be taking this personally Solid. You shouldn't be. I haven't directed any comments at you specifically, except that I didn't agree with your post.

[freespirit]

they use multiple officers & patrol cars for 2 reasons imo,

1st- that way they have witnesses that will back their story (3 cops' word beats that of a civilian in court.)

2nd- you are less likely to get out of hand when the odds are stacked against you. who in their right mind would give 3 or 4 cops a hard time?

[solid]

Would you care to point out where I said police work like you embellished above was not dynamic? I implied the execution of a non dynamic task such as getting the right address when serving a warrent was methodical and fairly straight forward. But the original question applies. Would you care to point it out?

You seem to be taking this personally Solid. You shouldn't be. I haven't directed any comments at you specifically, except that I didn't agree with your post.




Fair enough, I suppose I went on a ramble there typing away. I'm not taking it personally, but perhaps my way of trying to show that in any situation encountered could have just gone to complete shit and my life, among others, could have been ruined.

Regarding serving warrants, I was not on that side of it. While it seems obvious to get the right address, that's a big mistake, it's still very dynamic. You aren't deliver pizzas here. People with warrants know why cops show up at their doorsteps. It's to take their freedom away for whatever crimes they are sought for. If they have guns, they'll use them if given the opportunity. You can't just walk up and knock on the door, unless you want to get blown away.

It seems a lot of cops go overboard in the process though. Adrenaline is flowing, compounded by flash grenades storming into unknown areas expecting a shootout. A lot of those guys are just pure adrenaline junkies and that rush takes over.

[Libertytree]

Just thinking off the top of my head here.......

Good cops & bad cops, good people & bad people. I don't know what the rate is for cops quitting the job but I am willing to suggest that those who do say fuck it are basically good people who thought that they could really protect and serve, and maybe in an ideal time and society this might have been possible. I think that much like our politicians the base corruption and control by nefarious types have permeated our well intentioned system. To the point that even our very best people say fuck it, politically and in police and everything in between.

The potentially good ones say fuck it and the rotten to the core ones are all that's left to keep on this festering facade of public service.

[solid]

Just thinking off the top of my head here.......

Good cops & bad cops, good people & bad people. I don't know what the rate is for cops quitting the job but I am willing to suggest that those who do say fuck it are basically good people who thought that they could really protect and serve, and maybe in an ideal time and society this might have been possible. I think that much like our politicians the base corruption and control by nefarious types have permeated our well intentioned system. To the point that even our very best people say fuck it, politically and in police and everything in between.

The potentially good ones say fuck it and the rotten to the core ones are all that's left to keep on this festering facade of public service.


That's a thoughtful post there, Liberty. I can see how the bad could weed out the good, or changes the good. You can have your heart in the right place, then you are thrown into dealing with some really fucked up shit. Pardon my language, and I think it changes folks. You don't realize the amount of stress daily, and how it builds up. Add years onto that, and it's going to affect people differently.

I remember vividly one situation where we arrested a guy. He had kidnapped a mentally retarded kid, and molested and raped that kid several times over a 24 hour period. We rushed the home, caught him in the act.

I soo...wanted to just kill that guy on the spot. I had to hold back so much anger at that time..I'll never forget it.

I look back, and think if that was even me...but it was. Man, thinking back on that...just burns inside.

[mick silver]

Just thinking off the top of my head here.......

Good cops & bad cops, good people & bad people. I don't know what the rate is for cops quitting the job but I am willing to suggest that those who do say fuck it are basically good people who thought that they could really protect and serve, and maybe in an ideal time and society this might have been possible. I think that much like our politicians the base corruption and control by nefarious types have permeated our well intentioned system. To the point that even our very best people say fuck it, politically and in police and everything in between.

The potentially good ones say fuck it and the rotten to the core ones are all that's left to keep on this festering facade of public service.


That's a thoughtful post there, Liberty. I can see how the bad could weed out the good, or changes the good. You can have your heart in the right place, then you are thrown into dealing with some really fucked up shit. Pardon my language, and I think it changes folks. You don't realize the amount of stress daily, and how it builds up. Add years onto that, and it's going to affect people differently.

I remember vividly one situation where we arrested a guy. He had kidnapped a mentally retarded kid, and molested and raped that kid several times over a 24 hour period. We rushed the home, caught him in the act.

I soo...wanted to just kill that guy on the spot. I had to hold back so much anger at that time..I'll never forget it.

I look back, and think if that was even me...but it was. Man, thinking back on that...just burns inside.
why would that of been a bad thing

[solid]

why would that of been a bad thing


That's where it starts man, once you go down that road it's over. Changes you.

[Libertytree]

Holy shit Solid!! I'm really kind of speechless here. You're a better man than I am or I'm one of those that would act outside of the "law", maybe I could have held my anger deferring to the principle of law, maybe not and we'll never know but you managed to contain/restrain your emotions and I couldn't promise that. You're a better man than I thought you were...and that's saying something my friend.

[solid]

Holy shit Solid!! I'm really kind of speechless here. You're a better man than I am or I'm one of those that would act outside of the "law", maybe I could have held my anger deferring to the principle of law, maybe not and we'll never know but you managed to contain/restrain your emotions and I couldn't promise that. You're a better man than I thought you were...and that's saying something my friend.


Liberty, I appreciate that, but I don't view myself in a positive way at that time. I never knew I was capable of so much anger, it bothers me. I didn't like who I was as a person then, is what I'm saying.

Fuck it, it's all in the past.

[SLV^GLD]

I am convinced that Gresham's law applies to cops as it does money.

[Awoke]

Holy shit Solid!! I'm really kind of speechless here. You're a better man than I am or I'm one of those that would act outside of the "law", maybe I could have held my anger deferring to the principle of law, maybe not and we'll never know but you managed to contain/restrain your emotions and I couldn't promise that. You're a better man than I thought you were...and that's saying something my friend.


Liberty, I appreciate that, but I don't view myself in a positive way at that time. I never knew I was capable of so much anger, it bothers me. I didn't like who I was as a person then, is what I'm saying.

fuck it, it's all in the past.


Yeah, well, I know you don't have kids, but I do. I can't guarantee that I wouldn't have shot that fucker on the spot. Some people deserve to have their judgement day before the Lord "fast forwarded".


I have a friend. He hates cops too. His cousin became a cop and they didn't speak to each other for years. Finally at a family reunion, my frinend got enough beers into himself to forgive his cousin, and spoke to him. His cousin told him about his first night on the job, in Toronto.

The senior cop took him out, and said "I'm going to show you how we do things here". They walked into a 24 hour laundrymatt, found a homeless guy sleeping inside. The senior officer beat the shit out of him. Kicked his face in, beat him with his club, etc, picked him up and threw him out onto the sidewalk, and left him there.

[Cebu_4_2]

This has got to be the cop doom thread of the year.

[Awoke]

Fuck cops. I'm glad you started this thread, Freespirit. It should be sticked. That taser thread (http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/opps-another-accidental-taser-death/) should have been posted in here too.

[Son-of-Liberty]

Every time I see these mistaken address raids or excessive force being used in one I have to ask why they are doing the standard dynamic entry shock and awe routine. In this case for example they couldn't just wait until the guy leaves the house and then arrest him? Surveill the house for a couple days and figure out how many people are inside and when their is onl one or two then knock on the door? Unless the criminal is known for violence and resisting arrest why the need for a raid in the middle of the night with twenty officers and flash bang grenades? What if the kid had been in bed and was seriously injured or killed by the flash bang? Would the arrest of one criminal after the fact have been worth it? The fact that they could botch the raid so badly and still make the arrest shows me that the excessive violence used was not necessary.

It is pretty blatant that these tactics are more about instilling fear in the public that if you cross the system you will be met with overwhelming force then they are about functionality.

[dys]

Cops are often very very bad people. And all of them are criminals. So I used to hate them. I still have no love for most of them, but the brutally honest truth is that we are all prostitutes. Speaking for myself, if I REALLY wanted to walk the walk, I'd burn the satanic FRNs in my pocket and never use them again. Until I do that, until you that, to some degree we still serve the system that we rail against on the daily.

dys

[gunDriller]

In a lawsuit the tax payers would pay. It's too bad the people responsible couldn't be named directly in the lawsuit and forced to pay with their own money, like you and I would be forced to if we made a mistake like that...


yep, exactly.

it seems amazing that the province or Can. federal government don't investigate these amazing abuses of power.

the MSM cooperates by portraying people who fight back as "trouble-makers" & "domestic terrorists".


in this case, there really was no case. so the guy is growing or possessing cannabis - so what ? he has a gun to protect himself - so what ?

not only did the cops bungle the job, they spent time prosecuting activity that is not even a crime.

in Canada.

[bellevuebully]

Cops are often very very bad people. And all of them are criminals. So I used to hate them. I still have no love for most of them, but the brutally honest truth is that we are all prostitutes. Speaking for myself, if I REALLY wanted to walk the walk, I'd burn the satanic FRNs in my pocket and never use them again. Until I do that, until you that, to some degree we still serve the system that we rail against on the daily.

dys


dys....frn's are not evil, nor satanic. frns can purchase a bible, a hot meal for someone hungry, a blanket for someone who is cold. The system is what the system is. It is how our heart's operate in the imperfect conditions that we find ourselves in that is important. Even Lydia (sp?) sold goods for currency to help forward the gospel. If you want to get rid of frn's, send them to me...I'll distribute them responsibly. I'm being facetious of course, but you get the point I'm sure.

Evil men use everything at their disposal to be evil. They use food as a tool to control. They use leadership and authority for adoration and favour. They use the Word for self gain. God created the food for our physical nourishment. God instituted authority for our spiritual and moral development. God revealed the Word for his glory and our salvation.

"It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles (Matt 5:11).

Likewise, it is not what goes in or out of a mans wallet that defiles, but perhaps how it got there or what it is being used for.



m2c's

[Awoke]

Cops are often very very bad people. And all of them are criminals. So I used to hate them. I still have no love for most of them, but the brutally honest truth is that we are all prostitutes. Speaking for myself, if I REALLY wanted to walk the walk, I'd burn the satanic FRNs in my pocket and never use them again. Until I do that, until you that, to some degree we still serve the system that we rail against on the daily.

dys


dys....frn's are not evil, nor satanic. frns can purchase a bible, a hot meal for someone hungry, a blanket for someone who is cold. The system is what the system is. It is how our heart's operate in the imperfect conditions that we find ourselves in that is important. Even Lydia (sp?) sold goods for currency to help forward the gospel. If you want to get rid of frn's, send them to me...I'll distribute them responsibly. I'm being facetious of course, but you get the point I'm sure.

Evil men use everything at their disposal to be evil. They use food as a tool to control. They use leadership and authority for adoration and favour. They use the Word for self gain. God created the food for our physical nourishment. God instituted authority for our spiritual and moral development. God revealed the Word for his glory and our salvation.

"It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles (Matt 5:11).

Likewise, it is not what goes in or out of a mans wallet that defiles, but perhaps how it got there or what it is being used for.



m2c's


Both great posts. I agree with your view on the fiat, BB. I also agree with Dysgenic, that we are all still talking part in the system even when we hate it and know the evil that it supports.

[bellevuebully]

Cops are often very very bad people. And all of them are criminals. So I used to hate them. I still have no love for most of them, but the brutally honest truth is that we are all prostitutes. Speaking for myself, if I REALLY wanted to walk the walk, I'd burn the satanic FRNs in my pocket and never use them again. Until I do that, until you that, to some degree we still serve the system that we rail against on the daily.

dys


dys....frn's are not evil, nor satanic. frns can purchase a bible, a hot meal for someone hungry, a blanket for someone who is cold. The system is what the system is. It is how our heart's operate in the imperfect conditions that we find ourselves in that is important. Even Lydia (sp?) sold goods for currency to help forward the gospel. If you want to get rid of frn's, send them to me...I'll distribute them responsibly. I'm being facetious of course, but you get the point I'm sure.

Evil men use everything at their disposal to be evil. They use food as a tool to control. They use leadership and authority for adoration and favour. They use the Word for self gain. God created the food for our physical nourishment. God instituted authority for our spiritual and moral development. God revealed the Word for his glory and our salvation.

"It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles (Matt 5:11).

Likewise, it is not what goes in or out of a mans wallet that defiles, but perhaps how it got there or what it is being used for.



m2c's


Both great posts. I agree with your view on the fiat, BB. I also agree with Dysgenic, that we are all still talking part in the system even when we hate it and know the evil that it supports.


I also agree with dys's position on hating the systems of the world.

[Awoke]

OTTAWA - A man who advised the Conservative government on firearms policies is comparing the Ontario Provincial Police to a fascist paramilitary group and the Nazi SS.

Dr. Mike Ackermann, a physician in Nova Scotia, was appointed in 2006 to a firearms advisory committee, reporting to then-public safety minister Stockwell Day.

Ackermann wrote a note in a Canadian Firearms Digest mailing list earlier this month discussing a police raid on the home of a gun owner in central Ontario. In the note, he compares the police to the Black Shirts, a fascist paramilitary group in Italy under Benito Mussolini and the infamous Nazi SS police.

"So all it takes now to have the Black Shirts bomb your house and take you down is an unsubstantiated call by a disgruntled whoever," Ackermann wrote.

"As I predicted a few years ago, the escalation of police response from a polite knock on the door and discussion to SS type raid is the direct result of gun licensing and registration coupled with the pogrom of cultural genocide that has been going on for the last decade and more.

"Sooner or later they are gonna start shooting us first and asking questions later."

A copy of Ackermann's note was released by the Liberals.

It was not immediately known how long Ackermann was a member of the firearms advisory committee, or if he was advising the government up until the election call.

The website of gun advocate Tory MP Garry Breitkreuz says the committee, including Ackermann, first met in October 2006 to advise the minister.

A request for information about the committee was not returned by Public Safety Canada. Their website notes that consultation about amendments to the Firearms Act involved "seeking subject-specific advice and expertise" from a Canadian firearms advisory committee.

An online resume purportedly by Ackermann says he was re-appointed to the committee in 2008 and 2009. It says he was also elected to the National Board of Directors of the Canadian Shooting Sports Association in 2008.

Ackermann appears to be a frequent contributor to the firearms digest mailing list, which has archives available online from 1994 to 2010. He often espouses the view that gun deaths could be prevented if the would-be victim was also armed.

He wrote in March 2010 about Priscilla de Villiers, a woman whose daughter was shot and killed with a rifle while jogging in Burlington, Ont., and who spoke out in favour of the long-gun registry.

Ackermann wrote that while he has "great sympathy" for de Villiers, the tragic loss of her daughter doesn't qualify her as an expert on crime deterrence.

"She should devote her energies to lobbying for recognition of the right armed self defense by women such as her daughter, who would very likely still be alive today had she something better to defend herself with than a cell phone," he said.

In 2005 he went on a long tirade against "the state," saying it will impose severe sanctions on anyone or anything it perceives as a threat, such as the shooting community.

"So again, when should we realize that it is time to fight for our Freedoms? To paraphrase John Ross in 'Unintended Consequences,' must we wait until we are 70 lbs underweight, in rags, and on the boxcars headed for the camps? By then it will be too late."

Ackermann wrote that Canadians are not free, and that "the state" doesn't want people to have original thoughts.

"The People are true to welfare, lotteries, beer, and tobacco, mostly. Just try and take these away and see the uproar," he wrote.

"We are not strong militarily, diplomatically, organizationally, nor individually, with few exceptions. We most definitely are not free as long as we are denied the rights to defend our lives, to move freely within our borders and to privately own our property. (Examples: 1) Securicor can defend a bag of money with a gun in public, but you can't defend your daughter with one."



http://ca.news.yahoo.com/gun-adviser-conservatives-likens-ontario-police-nazi-ss-155650146.html