BitCoins

[Shami-Amourae]

I heard about this new virtual currency is done with the same technology as Bit Torrent, through P2P networks. I don't know if it's a ponzi scheme or a brilliant way for humanity to break from of the banking cartels, but it's worth looking into in my opinion. Many of the technology seems complex, but I've looked it over with my own technology specs and think its absolutely brilliant if something like this can successfully take off.

It was briefly mentioned on Max Keisers show:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwngKUVU85g

Here's the official breakdown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um63OQz3bjo

XtraNormal breakdown:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTOhti7wxXk

BookOfNick interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJE9do_pUd4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdr8HY8ygmk


Potential Upsides:

Decentralized
Could destroy entire banking establishment
People who get in early could multiply their wealth
You cant shut it down without shutting down the entire Internet
Potential business opportunities


Potential Downsides:

Possible Ponzi scheme
Could make identity theft worse
People might not 'buy into the idea'
Dangerous if the Internet goes out


I really don't have a firm position if it's a good or bad idea yet. I'm still new to the concept and trying to understand. I'm not trying to insult people here since I know this is a precious metals forum. Max Keiser himself thinks this is a great thing to invest with alongside Silver to destroy the banksters, and that's enough to interest me. Just sharing the info, since I think its something that should be looked into.

BitCoin website:
http://www.bitcoin.org/

Overview of the BitCoin market (Last updated May 13, 2011):

[Bigjon]

Lots of links to bitCoin and anonymous BitCoin exchange protocols.
http://orlingrabbe.com/

http://library.agoristradio.com/library/cypherpunkd/cypherpunkd-EP011.mp3

http://library.agoristradio.com/library/cypherpunkd/cypherpunkd-EP012.mp3

[Bigjon]

Loosely Managed Digital Currency Could Be Avenue for Crime That's Hard to Block
April 15, 2011
By Colby Adams [Alert Global Media, publishers of MoneyLaundering.com]


An emerging virtual currency intended to be used in lieu of cash could also be a vehicle for criminals seeking to make international transactions anonymously, according to investigators.

Bitcoin, a loosely organized electronic payment system created in January 2009 by an otherwise anonymous computer programmer known by the possible pseudonym of Satoshi Nakamoto, allows users and merchants to make transactions through digital coins, with or without the aid of payment processors or other financial institutions.

While the project remains relatively small, it has already drawn enthusiastic users, including international vendors and nonprofit organizations like the Electronic Frontier Foundation, which accept charitable donations of the currency. Google developers have received the green light to research the coins, which are valued at a total of $5 million, according to estimates by www.mtgox.com.

The currency was "no doubt developed for altruistic purposes by conscientious people, and there are perfectly legitimate, legal and philosophical reasons for wanting the financial anonymity that [Bitcoin] gives, but the other reality is, if this type of currency takes off, it will be a dream for the bad guys," said Steve Santorelli, director of global outreach at Team Cymru, a Burr Ridge, IL-based Internet security firm.

By using multiple e-mail addresses and anonymous proxies to disguise their locations, criminals can open a new Bitcoin account for each transaction and ensure that their money movements are "virtually bombproof and untraceable to an investigator," said Santorelli, a former Scotland Yard cybercrime detective and a former senior manager of investigations with Microsoft's Internet Crimes Investigation Team.

Because Bitcoin users can disguise their locations while potentially transacting large sums of currency with the aid of offshore merchants and payment processors, "domestic court orders and subpoenas to pierce the transactions [are rendered] obsolete," he said.

"The decentralized, international system means that, unlike a financial institution, there is no one to serve a court order on," said Santorelli. "If this system takes off it will be virtually impossible to police it, requiring a fundamental rethink in the investigative approach."

Money from nothing

At first blush, the origin and value behind bitcoins will likely seem strange to some. Few, if anyone, has met Nakamoto, organization principal Gavin Andresen said, during a March 15 interview with EconTalk. Control of the organization is decentralized and based on the premise that all users can have a say in monetary decisions.

"The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work," Nakamoto wrote in a February 2009 blog on P2P Foundation. "The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust."

How bitcoins work is a "step beyond any payment system I have ever seen," said Santorelli.

The currency, which is traded through software anyone can download, is not backed by precious metals or other commodities but relies on the fact that it is accepted by a group of consumers and merchants whose transactions are vetted by one another on a volunteer basis.

To obtain bitcoins, users can buy existing coins from a participating company—the currency has traded both above and below the value of a U.S. dollar—or try to win a batch of 50 newly-minted bitcoins by first solving a cryptographic puzzle with proof that other users can evaluate. The puzzles are generated by an algorithm designed to make the challenges solvable at a rate of once per 10 minutes, thus establishing a steady rate of coin “creation.”

Among other methods, the coins can be redeemed for prepaid Visa cards, PayPal credit, cash shipped via mail, digital currency used in the online site Second Life and precious metals and coins, including in pounds of pennies, according to https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade , which is hyperlinked from the organization's Web site.

The coins can also be traded between users or spent with the approximately 100 vendors currently accepting the digital money, including electronics dealers, clothing retailers and online bookstores. Among those accepting the currency are a handful of merchants purporting to sell psychoactive drugs, including heroin and LSD, and over a dozen online gambling Web sites, according to the Wiki page.

A statement on Bitcoin's Web site contends that "sometimes you just want to send money from A to B without worrying about limits and policies."

Like cash?

Checks against misuse are already built into the system, which operates as a "pretty loosely organized open source project," said Andresen, in his interview with EconTalk.

Because the software is open-source and money movements are made via a public platform that anyone can scrutinize, users have the ability, and the incentive, to check whether their peers have engaged in suspicious activity, or have tried to game the system, he said during the interview. Currently, between 5,000 and 10,000 individuals participate in the project, Andresen told EconTalk.

"Like cash, Bitcoin can be used for good, and it can be used for evil," according to Jeff Garzik, a Bitcoin developer and creator of www.BitcoinWatch.com, a Web site that follows Bitcoin's financial trends. Since transactions are public, and thus traceable, the currency is "slightly less anonymous" than cash, he said.

"In practice, this provides anonymity for the average transaction, but a government with subpoena power and the ability to perform statistical analysis may be able to track illicit bitcoin activity with a higher success rate than with hard cash U.S. dollar transactions," said Garzik.

"Every bitcoin transaction ever made is public, and the life of every bitcoin is fully recorded in public for all to see," said Garzik, referring to http://www.blockexplorer.com , a Web site that tracks each transaction by unique number. Yet penetrating beyond the number to the initiator of the transaction "would be the difficult part" of an investigation, he said.

Still, court orders may be served to bitcoin exchanges, users and other operators, ordering them to "ban" specific bitcoins if needed, he said.

Nothing stopping them

Even in instances when wrongdoing is discovered, the organization's decentralized nature would make it "extremely difficult for the government to regulate, and may require them to prosecute only individuals, rather than the system as a whole," according to Tom Kellerman, vice president of security awareness and government affairs for Core Security Technologies, a Boston-based data security firm.

Although both cash and bitcoins offer a degree of anonymity, they differ in one key aspect: how quickly they can be transported, said Kellerman. Like remittances, bitcoins can be sent across borders rapidly and with little chance of retrieval, he said.

"The speed difference is roughly that of e-mail versus conventional mail," he said.

"It avoids every reporting requirement out there, which is scary, and it's open source software, meaning someone could start their own currency, which is also scary," said Arnie Scher, Director at the New York office of BDO consulting and a former compliance manager at JP Morgan Chase.

"There's nothing preventing drug dealers from starting their own bitcoin currency - nothing," he said.

Already regulated?

In response to a request for determination for Bitcoin USA, an independent digital currency exchange company affiliated with the project, the U.S. Treasury Department referred the business to a January 2009 Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN) ruling defining digital currencies as prepaid value providers.

Bitcoin USA eventually closed, in part, because "identification requirements stopped people from completing the registration completely," according to an April 9 post on Bitcoin's main public forum. "I had a total of three people upload their documents out of all the registered people," according to the post, which cited FinCEN's ruling.

Other bitcoin exchanges have been following the FinCEN ruling "in an ad hoc manner, in an attempt to proactively comply with AML regulations," said Garzik.

Under U.S. regulations, digital currency companies are prohibited from selling or redeeming more than $1,000 per person per day without registering as a money services business (MSB) with FinCEN, and filing suspicious activity and currency transaction reports.

Registering with FinCEN would bring Bitcoin-affiliated businesses under the Bank Secrecy Act examination authority of the Internal Revenue Service, which oversees 200,000 MSBs, according to a February 2009 report from the U.S. Government Accountability Office that also noted numerous logistical hurdles the agency faced in overseeing the companies.

But even if bitcoin exchanges with high-value transactions register with FinCEN, the IRS' monitoring of Bitcoin's vendors would be "unworkable" in part because of confusion over "which part of the system to regulate" and because the IRS is already stretched thin with its current roster of MSBs, said Scher.

Spokespersons for the IRS and FinCEN declined to comment on the organization. Nakamoto and Andreson did not respond to e-mails seeking comment by press time.

Room to grow

Currently, most bitcoin users keep their transactions below the $1,000 threshold because they would prefer to avoid reporting requirements, said Garzik. "Once Bitcoin grows larger, and can profitably support MSB-registered exchanges, those will flourish," he said.

The fact that the digital currency remains relatively small is also a sign that whatever potential problems Bitcoin may face, it's still too early to worry about large-scale money laundering, said Scott Dueweke, a senior associate at Booz Allen Hamilton who studies alternative payment systems.

"When you're talking about laundering drug profits, you're talking about millions - even billions - of dollars, and that's too big of a fish for a model like Bitcoin to fry at this point," said Dueweke. A laundering scheme involving Bitcoin would still need a "complicit or willfully ignorant financial institution to move anything in useful amounts," he said.

Other digital currency businesses have met with skepticism from federal regulators.

In July 2008, the three principal directors of E-Gold, a digital currency backed by gold, pled guilty to money laundering and charges of running an unlicensed money transmitting business. The Treasury Department fined the business nearly $3 million in October 2009 for helping others evade Iran and Cuba economic sanctions.

In February 2006, New York indicted three Western Express International executives for exchanging up to $25 million in international criminal proceeds for digital currencies, including digital gold acquired from the purchase of goods with stolen credit card numbers.

"We are concerned that mechanisms such as the Internet increasingly can be used to conduct business within the United States from a foreign jurisdiction," wrote FinCEN, in a May 2009 ruling. "Use of such mechanisms may avoid both our regulations and the regulations of the foreign jurisdiction," the ruling said.

[Horn]

Hopefully it'll turn into the new rage...

[Shami-Amourae]

Just bought my first BitCoins last night. Here's how I did it:

1.) Setup a Dwolla (https://www.dwolla.com/default.aspx) account.
2.) Linked my bank account to my Dwolla account
3.) Sent money over to the Dwolla account from bank.
4.) Setup a Mt Gox (https://mtgox.com/) account.
5.) Transferred funded to Mt Gox account.
6.) Purchased BitCoins on my Mt Gox account.
7.) Withdrew BitCoins to be sent to my BitCoin address.
8.) Once I got 6 confirmations, it was successfully added to my wallet.


The wallet a heavily encrypted file file called wallet.dat. You can move this file to other computers and this acts as the "Physical" BitCoins. The network needs confirmations to know whats going on, so if you have your wallet on other computers, it syncs them all as the same thing, rather than being duplicate copies.

I'd like to point out at I purchased these BitCoins @$6.80 per BitCoin. Last time I looked at the price a week ago, it was $3.60, so this should give you some perspective how fast the price is rising. As I post this message, a half a day after my purchase, BitCoins are @$8.02 (so I could sell now for a 18%+ profit) , so this shows you the relative volatility of the market, but the general trend is upwards.

[Horn]

So what will 14.45 bitcoins get you?

[Shami-Amourae]

It was basically about $100 when I bought it. I left a little in my Mt Gox account for the Hell of it.

[Shami-Amourae]

You can also get free BitCoins here, to try the system out yourself:

http://freebitcoins.appspot.com/

That's what the 0.02 BitCoin transaction is on my screenshot.

[Horn]

So is anyone accepting them as payment yet. Or is it a scheme to prop up dollar velocity?

[Shami-Amourae]

There is a list here (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade) or here (http://www.bitcoinsites.com/) of businesses that use it, but it's fairly small. I've noticed some eCommerce sites that use BitCoin, some BitCoin with PayPal and the rest. Most people are using it for a gimmick for donations. It definitely is something that's viewed more as a commodity that keeps going up in value, rather than a currency people want to get rid of (like the Federal Reserve Note.) This is the same dilemma precious metals face: Since they keep going up in value no one wants to part with them yet. If we start seeing more businesses use this thing, like for more REAL things, I think then it will shoot up to the moon in popularity. I'm still unsure myself if this will take off, but it can't hurt me to get in early, and see what happens. I definitely am considering this as a possible avenue for a second business that deals with virtual currency.

[Horn]

I definitely am considering this as a possible avenue for a second business that deals with virtual currency.


Get yourself a press & sell pieces of 8 (Ag) for bit coins.

I'm into it!

[Shami-Amourae]

Watch this, starting at 7:20. Max Keiser posted this on his website.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwNfBgwbqng&t=7m20s

[SLV^GLD]

I was all about bitcoin until I realized the complexity of creation was some where around 5 years for 1 coin. I could convert FRN to bitcoins but I'll stick to Ag and Au instead. For those who got in early and could create bitcoins from processor cycles good on them!

[solid]

I think this could be a great idea, in theory...but me personally, I want no part of it. I really don't trust technology to do what's right, it's too easy to get corrupted. I'm sure a lot of that is just my lack of tech understanding, but too many times something just stops working and becomes useless, whether computer, cell phone, anything tech tends to go *poof* and just be gone.

Who's to say a virus won't come along and corrupt the whole system? Or an EMP whipes it all out?

Paper FRNS burn, tech crap can become worthless in an instant, gold and silver are honest and have been around for thousand's of years. I'll stick to the simple honest strength of the old ways here.

[SLV^GLD]

Why would you pay someone to convert what you already have into something that very few merchants are willing to accept or even know exists?
Easy answer.
I like coffee. Good, organic coffee runs about ~$16 FRN for a pound of roasted beans. If I can convert $16 FRN into a single bitcoin and then wait X amount of time for said bitcoin to reach the purchasing power of 2 lbs of organic roasted beans I have effectively doubled the purchasing power by converting the FRNs.

The coffee can be had for bitcoins. The bitcoins, by their very nature, will increase in purchasing power. What is the FRN doing in terms of purchasing power over time?

Now, as i stated earlier, I see more value in converting FRNs to Ag and Au than I do bitcoins but the concept is still quite valid as far as purchasing power over relatively short periods of time are concerned. Ag and Au just have a much wider market in terms of being acccepted or liquidated for purchases.

[SLV^GLD]

Who's to say a virus won't come along and corrupt the whole system?
A virus would be, for all practical intents and purposes, impossible to construct that could corrupt a distributed mathematical hash. You are correct to distrust that which you do not understand but you make it apparent that you very much do not understand the underlying technology.

[Horn]

Paper FRNS burn, tech crap can become worthless in an instant, gold and silver are honest and have been around for thousand's of years. I'll stick to the simple honest strength of the old ways here.


The tallystick had a built in security feature that Gold & Silver lack.

[Shami-Amourae]

Hopefully it'll turn into the new rage...

Do I win the Internet now?

[madfranks]

Do I win the Internet now?
Yep, you win. This thread will forever be a reminder to those here who had a chance to get in to BTC early and make a fortune but never did.

[TroyOz]

Do I win the Internet now?

Yep, you win. Have you held and added over the years?

[Neuro]

So what will 14.45 bitcoins get you?

A nice house...

[Neuro]

Just saw at the trollbox that the bitcoin network was valued at aprox. $175 Billion which is equal to the Market valuation of MasterCard.

[Jewboo]

I'd like to point out at I purchased these BitCoins @$6.80 per BitCoin. Last time I looked at the price a week ago, it was $3.60, so this should give you some perspective how fast the price is rising. As I post this message, a half a day after my purchase, BitCoins are @$8.02 (so I could sell now for a 18%+ profit) , so this shows you the relative volatility of the market, but the general trend is upwards.



Depends on how many you still possess now in 2017.

:rolleyes:

[Shami-Amourae]

Depends on how many you still possess now in 2017.

:rolleyes:

If I sold everything now I could buy a house in full here in Idaho.

I did lose a lot though due to panic sells, theft, and the BTC-e collapse.
The fact is no one really knew what they were doing in the early days since this technology was new, so many of the early adopters made a ton of mistakes and lost a ton of money.

If that hadn't happen I'd have a few hundred Bitcoin instead, so I'd be a multi-millionaire.

So despite all my losses, I'm up dollarwise by a shit ton.

I think EOS is probably one of the best buys right now.
It could become big like Etherium in a year or two.

[Jewboo]

I did lose a lot though due to panic sells, theft, and the BTC-e collapse.
The fact is no one really knew what they were doing in the early days since this technology was new, so many of the early adopters made a ton of mistakes and lost a ton of money. If that hadn't happen I'd have a few hundred Bitcoin instead, so I'd be a multi-millionaire. So despite all my losses, I'm up dollarwise by a shit ton...



https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/132e86e8fe6bd88eb03d0e3f72694bd0a1fcde8b/c=248-0-1800-1167&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2016/09/27/MIGroup/Lansing/636105700171004502-LSJBrd-05-15-2016-LSJ-1-B006--2016-05-14-IMG-six-flags1-1-1-1BEBOFRM-L811477053-IMG-six-flags1-1-1-1BEBOFRM.jpg

Well...this dated 2011 thread is evidence that you saw what most never did. You deserve an unreserved bravo Shami. Bravo!

https://gifcept.com/jMYa7Wq.gif

[EE_]

The mission of the global elite is to have a government controlled by one state. 2. Create a global currency. Are we in the process of that transformation, is the NWO here?
People are getting comfortable with their money floating in cyberspace. Is the NWO future almost here?

[Neuro]

If I sold everything now I could buy a house in full here in Idaho.

I did lose a lot though due to panic sells, theft, and the BTC-e collapse.
The fact is no one really knew what they were doing in the early days since this technology was new, so many of the early adopters made a ton of mistakes and lost a ton of money.

If that hadn't happen I'd have a few hundred Bitcoin instead, so I'd be a multi-millionaire.

So despite all my losses, I'm up dollarwise by a shit ton.

I think EOS is probably one of the best buys right now.
It could become big like Etherium in a year or two.

You do know that btc-e has risen like www.wex.nz? So you only need the e-mail you used before to log in and you would get now around 85% of the coins you had deposited at btc-e... In other words you get around 63% of your previous holdings in coins and around 37% in tokens representing the coins you had at btc-e, those tokens are traded at a percentage at wex.nz (usually 50-70% of the coin value).

[Neuro]

I do think that the crypto market has reached or is very close to the peak now, the sentiments, the irrational exuberance, the comments that I see on places like wex.nz and the overall crypto media, is what I have seen in previous mania phases I have participated or observed. "It's a new paradigm! The old rules of economy doesn't apply here! Everyone that goes in now is going to be rich beyond dreams in 3-5 years. Bitcoin is going to be half a million dollars in 3 years. . People are whining about LTC (litecoin), not moving at all, while the truth is that it has gone from $3.5 to $85 in 6 months, or about 2500%. Bitcoin was $300 only a year or so ago, now it is close to $10,000, around 3000%.

We are reaching the end of the mania phase. My play right now is bitcoin cash (BCH), main reason is that it has gone up when BTC has gone down, and I believe that is what is going to happen now as well as the mania phase implodes, initially at least. The engine of the entire crypto market is of course bitcoin with around 50% of market capitalization. I wouldn't be surprised to see bitcoin going down towards $1000, with many alts getting an even bigger haircut or disappearing altogether, within the next 1-2 years, and then a recovery, painfully slow initially will start in earnest.

Sure it is entirely possible that btc in a couple of days will peak at $20,000 or beyond, it is within the realm of possibility in the mania phase.

[Neuro]

If I sold everything now I could buy a house in full here in Idaho.


Exchange your tulip bulbs for a HOUSE Shami!

[Jewboo]

I wouldn't be surprised to see bitcoin going down towards $1000, with many alts getting an even bigger haircut or disappearing altogether, within the next 1-2 years, and then a recovery, painfully slow initially will start in earnest. Sure it is entirely possible that btc in a couple of days will peak at $20,000 or beyond, it is within the realm of possibility in the mania phase.



http://www.richardcayne.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/c22cb6033f069963e4a07f627e3e9627-6.jpg

http://www.cliomuse.com/uploads/9/2/4/6/9246605/published/tulipmania-graph.png?1497857618

Soon a bitcoin won't buy one real tulip. Thirty cents each.
(http://www.tulipworld.com/Fall-Planted-Bulbs/Tulips/Bulk-Tulips/Yellow-Golden-Apeldoorn-Tulip-100-bulbs.aspx)
:rolleyes: soon

[Shami-Amourae]

You do know that btc-e has risen like www.wex.nz? (http://www.wex.nz?) So you only need the e-mail you used before to log in and you would get now around 85% of the coins you had deposited at btc-e... In other words you get around 63% of your previous holdings in coins and around 37% in tokens representing the coins you had at btc-e, those tokens are traded at a percentage at wex.nz (usually 50-70% of the coin value).

I took the 55% deal instead since I didn't trust them.
Also, the value of Bitcoin went up dramatically since then, so it was more like 33%

[Shami-Amourae]

We are reaching the end of the mania phase. My play right now is bitcoin cash (BCH), main reason is that it has gone up when BTC has gone down, and I believe that is what is going to happen now as well as the mania phase implodes, initially at least. The engine of the entire crypto market is of course bitcoin with around 50% of market capitalization. I wouldn't be surprised to see bitcoin going down towards $1000, with many alts getting an even bigger haircut or disappearing altogether, within the next 1-2 years, and then a recovery, painfully slow initially will start in earnest.

I've learned to diversify and DO NOT TRADE.
Sit, hold, and forget.
Almost all of my trades ended in disaster.
If I had simply just sat, held, and forgotten I'd be a multi-millionaire now. When everyone is trying to outsmart the next person, the wisest move is to not move, but stay as fixed as possible.

[Shami-Amourae]

http://www.richardcayne.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/c22cb6033f069963e4a07f627e3e9627-6.jpg

http://www.cliomuse.com/uploads/9/2/4/6/9246605/published/tulipmania-graph.png?1497857618

Soon a bitcoin won't buy one real tulip. Thirty cents each.
(http://www.tulipworld.com/Fall-Planted-Bulbs/Tulips/Bulk-Tulips/Yellow-Golden-Apeldoorn-Tulip-100-bulbs.aspx)
:rolleyes: soon



That argument has been made for many years now.

Bitcoin is a revolution in technology so it won't go away anytime soon.

The only way Bitcoin drops to nothing is if a Bitcoin fork or another cryptocurrency takes its place.

The trick there is to simply diversify once a legitimate alternative arises just like Neuro mentioned with Bitcoin Cash.

The cool thing with Bitcoin Cash is everyone who had Bitcoin could also get free Bitcoin Cash using the same wallet/private key.

[madfranks]

I've learned to diversify and DO NOT TRADE.
Sit, hold, and forget.
Almost all of my trades ended in disaster.
If I had simply just sat, held, and forgotten I'd be a multi-millionaire now. When everyone is trying to outsmart the next person, the wisest move is to not move, but stay as fixed as possible.

Me too. I was looking through my old trades, killing myself for selling 2000 LTC when it was ~$3 each, and now they’re close to $100. I used to have 21+ BTC, but sold/traded most of them away in irrational panic sells/trades. Had I sat and held on, I’d also be rich today.

[Neuro]

Me too. I was looking through my old trades, killing myself for selling 2000 LTC when it was ~$3 each, and now they’re close to $100. I used to have 21+ BTC, but sold/traded most of them away in irrational panic sells/trades. Had I sat and held on, I’d also be rich today.

Remember that 5BTC silver coin you purchased, remember that you also have 5 bitcoin cash and bitcoin gold coins on that. So it should be worth around $60,000 today. $25,000 more than you thought a couple of weeks ago! Not bad huh! :)

I wouldn't call it irrational panics even, yes in hindsight perhaps one could say it was, but these coins are highly volatile, and considering the fast technological development, it is highly unlikely that BTC would keep its perceived value vs competition in the long run. In fact it is surprising that it still does, since its value is perceived as emanating from the underlying block chain technology. Technology wise BTC is a steam powered submarine, while the competitors have developed diesel/battery submarines, and are launching nuclear powered submarines. The only reason BTC is keeping increasing its value is because of psychology, and no-one is certain which particular block chain technology will be dominant in the future, even if most competitors are far superior to BTC.

Keep what you currently have, and in the long run, you'll just have some cryptological math puzzles of incredible complexity, that you can try to explain to your grandchildren that they were worth incredible sums of money at one point. Show them the 5BTC coin, and tell them that it was worth 3,000 ounces of silver, or 50 ounces of gold at one point, but you thought it was going to be worth much more, so you kept it...

The thing is that it isn't you or Shami or Ares that have been irrational in your dealings with this beast. The market is totally irrational, and in hindsight it is easy to say that the most rational thing to do, is just to sit and hold what you have and not trade, or sell. Based on history it would seem so, but the market is in itself inherently irrational, so once something becomes perceived as rational the best is probably to do the opposite.

[TroyOz]

I've learned to diversify and DO NOT TRADE.
Sit, hold, and forget.
Almost all of my trades ended in disaster.
If I had simply just sat, held, and forgotten I'd be a multi-millionaire now. When everyone is trying to outsmart the next person, the wisest move is to not move, but stay as fixed as possible.

That's a good strategy. Being "right" is the easier part - "sitting tight" is what separates the winners from the losers.

[Hitch]

That's a good strategy. Being "right" is the easier part - "sitting tight" is what separates the winners from the losers.

How long do you "sit tight" for though? Do you sit tight until you die, or do you sit tight until you can cash out of the whole mess and buy a house?

If you can sell bitcoin and buy a house outright....do it!! You've already sat tight enough. Enjoy having a home, paid for, you've earned that.

[EE_]

It looks to me like bitcoin should easily take out the tulip mania, as the biggest in history.

[Jewboo]

It looks to me like bitcoin should easily take out the tulip mania, as the biggest in history.

http://gold-silver.us/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9481&d=1511955770


:o

[EE_]

http://gold-silver.us/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9481&d=1511955770


:o

That chart is no longer accurate, the red line should be much higher already. This mania will blow by the tulip mania like it was standing still.

It will be interesting to see how everyone gets out with their loot at the same time, if there's a panic crash.

[TroyOz]

How long do you "sit tight" for though? Do you sit tight until you die, or do you sit tight until you can cash out of the whole mess and buy a house?

If you can sell bitcoin and buy a house outright....do it!! You've already sat tight enough. Enjoy having a home, paid for, you've earned that.

The "sit tight" is until you reach the goals you set out before you invested. When I started investing in silver when it was under $5, I set a goal of 4x's my initial investment. What ended up happening was just as I was about to sell @$21 - the market crashed back to around $7. It was several years until it reached that price again.

One of the problems with cashing out Bitcoin and buying a house is taxes. To buy a house, you will have to convert Bitcoin into Dollars and enter the banking system and government reporting. What is the Capital gains tax on the profits? That could be a major deterrent for those with large gains.

[Neuro]

http://gold-silver.us/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9481&d=1511955770


The low on bitcoin was around $200 some 2-3 years ago and the high around $11,000 today , so that's a 55x increase. In line with the tulip mania of 1622, or a bit higher...

[EE_]

Updated graph

[Neuro]

http://realinvestmentadvice.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Investor-Psychology-Curve-Full.png

Now we are in the denial stage at the blow off phase...

[Neuro]

The "sit tight" is until you reach the goals you set out before you invested. When I started investing in silver when it was under $5, I set a goal of 4x's my initial investment. What ended up happening was just as I was about to sell @$21 - the market crashed back to around $7. It was several years until it reached that price again.

One of the problems with cashing out Bitcoin and buying a house is taxes. To buy a house, you will have to convert Bitcoin into Dollars and enter the banking system and government reporting. What is the Capital gains tax on the profits? That could be a major deterrent for those with large gains.

So you are saying don't take a profit because you have to pay taxes on profits?

[TroyOz]

So you are saying don't take a profit because you have to pay taxes on profits?

No, just that it is a deterrent. It's a big chunk on the gains Bitcoin has experienced.

If I didn't have a house and had the ability to own a house on bitcoin profits, I would do it.

[Hitch]

The "sit tight" is until you reach the goals you set out before you invested. When I started investing in silver when it was under $5, I set a goal of 4x's my initial investment. What ended up happening was just as I was about to sell @$21 - the market crashed back to around $7. It was several years until it reached that price again.

One of the problems with cashing out Bitcoin and buying a house is taxes. To buy a house, you will have to convert Bitcoin into Dollars and enter the banking system and government reporting. What is the Capital gains tax on the profits? That could be a major deterrent for those with large gains.

That's good advise, but applying it to bitcoin is a challenge. For example, if someone bought 100 bitcoins back when they were $20 a coin, for $2,000. Now, they are worth over 1 million dollars. I doubt anyone at that time really saw that kind of growth possible with bitcoin, and would have likely cashed out much sooner with a "sit tight"strategy.

If I even had one bitcoin, I'd dump it so fast right now and cash out without even thinking about it. In fact, thinking of one bitcoin being worth over $10K just makes me nervous, even the thought of having just one coin.

[monty]

That's good advise, but applying it to bitcoin is a challenge. For example, if someone bought 100 bitcoins back when they were $20 a coin, for $2,000. Now, they are worth over 1 million dollars. I doubt anyone at that time really saw that kind of growth possible with bitcoin, and would have likely cashed out much sooner with a "sit tight"strategy.

If I even had one bitcoin, I'd dump it so fast right now and cash out without even thinking about it. In fact, thinking of one bitcoin being worth over $10K just makes me nervous, even the thought of having just one coin.

Sitting tight is difficult. I bought 3.something bitcoins in January 2015 for $750.00. Traded them in July 2015 for 120 ounces of silver. I have no regrets.

[Neuro]

Sitting tight is difficult. I bought 3.something bitcoins in January 2015 for $750.00. Traded them in July 2015 for 120 ounces of silver. I have no regrets.

No one got poor from taking a profit once in a while...

[Neuro]

No one got poor from taking a profit once in a while...

Wouldn't be surprised if the bitcoin miners will drive up the price of silver, probably quite a lot used in the hardware

[Shami-Amourae]

No one got poor from taking a profit once in a while...

I sold a lot of Bitcoin around $20 from when I got in around $4-10, then bought back in at $200-400.
I lost a ton of money "taking profits".


I'll sell when I have an asset ready and lined up to buy for it.

[Neuro]

I sold a lot of Bitcoin around $20 from when I got in around $4-10, then bought back in at $200-400.
I lost a ton of money "taking profits".


I'll sell when I have an asset ready and lined up to buy for it.

What did you do with your "profits"?

[madfranks]

John Mcafee says bitcoin will be $1 million by end of 2020:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/john-mcafees-1-million-bitcoin-price-bet-leaves-even-the-most-ardent-bitcoin-opponents-praying-that-hes-right/

[Shami-Amourae]

Bitcoin at $52,000. Closing in on a $1 Trilllion market cap soon.
:rolleyes: