Launch an underground economy - help define a unit of account!!!

[BillBoard]

The intangible and undefined "Dollar" is the PTB's unit of account.

Help define a new unit of account and begin trading with it.

No need for guns, just use your will to trade for things in a new unit of account.

IN OTHER WORDS- WE NEED A NEW MONEY. ONE THAT IS NOT RENTED FROM THE BANKERS!

[Shami-Amourae]

http://gold-silver.us/forum/finance-and-economics/bitcoins/

[BillBoard]

http://gold-silver.us/forum/finance-and-economics/bitcoins/


Nice!

[BillBoard]

Unit of account and unit of exchange do not describe identical quantities. You are most familiar with matters of exchange. Matters of account are generally speaking between nations.

Now if you wanted to start viewing yourself as a nation then accounts can be arranged.


Don't be cryptic. You know each and everyone of us is a Nation, yet most do not comprehend it.

[Glass]

in most countries you will find "written law" which says that any method or unit of account other than the offfical authorised one is to be converted into the official authorised monetary unit for the purposes of applying taxes and levies. As you will therefore encounter morans who believe in "written law" above all else they will apply this "written law" unto you. This includes any system that gives the appearance of barter.

The reason for this is because it represents or mimics the law merchant law methodologies of bills of exchange and accrual based record keeping.

Maybe you could swap favours. 1 bushel of somesuch for a half day of hole digging etc.

[Neuro]

An eighth of superskunk?

[gunDriller]

it has to be -
* non-perishable
* be able to be broken down into small units, but scale-able, for larger purchases.

i think we have a de facto standard, the silver American dime. if it's .715 ounces of gold per $ face, then i guess it's .0715 Troy ounces per dime. That's 2.22 grams. 9 of them is 20 grams.

they can be scaled up. current exchange rate with gold would be 41.3.

so, about 577.6 silver dimes for one ounce of gold.


i think packs of cigarettes is another good exchange. i am tempted to pick some cartons up if i go to Mexico this year. but with cigarettes, the price varies so much - $4 in the US, maybe $2 in Mexico.

still, they are useful to people. it's not like people are going to stop smoking after an economic crash.

i wonder what the best kind of cigarette is for trade. I would think Marlboro or Camel. that's what i always smoked during the times in my life when i smoked cigs.


but, no such considerations with the silver dime. they are just plain useful

like Joan Baez said, "why go looking for lilacs when you're lying in a bed of roses ?"

i think we have a unit of account.

[madfranks]

Anything wrong with grains, grams, ounces?

[Twisted Titan]

Whatever to parties agree to will work out just fine .

Baring that no one is forced.


T

[Libertytree]

it has to be -
* non-perishable
* be able to be broken down into small units, but scale-able, for larger purchases.

i think we have a de facto standard, the silver American dime. if it's .715 ounces of gold per $ face, then i guess it's .0715 Troy ounces per dime. That's 2.22 grams. 9 of them is 20 grams.

they can be scaled up. current exchange rate with gold would be 41.3.

so, about 577.6 silver dimes for one ounce of gold.


"i think packs of cigarettes is another good exchange. i am tempted to pick some cartons up if i go to Mexico this year. but with cigarettes, the price varies so much - $4 in the US, maybe $2 in Mexico.

still, they are useful to people. it's not like people are going to stop smoking after an economic crash.

i wonder what the best kind of cigarette is for trade. I would think Marlboro or Camel. that's what i always smoked during the times in my life when i smoked cigs."


but, no such considerations with the silver dime. they are just plain useful

like Joan Baez said, "why go looking for lilacs when you're lying in a bed of roses ?"

i think we have a unit of account.


Gundriller, the tobacco idea is sound but here's some things to think about. First off, you'll find that the cartons will go bad and get stale in a relatively short time, decreasing their value. Storage is bulky and temp control is mandatory.

An alternative is buying sealed pounds of tobacco then sealing them again in a space bag or food saver system. You'll still need to control the temps but not having to use refrigeration, storing the cig papers with the tobacco. A 1lb bag is approx 3 cartons.

Another alternative is to buy and store tobacco seeds, it's fairly easy to grow and the yields are great.

[BillBoard]

Anything wrong with grains, grams, ounces?


Nothing wrong with them, except that a unit of account is in effect intangible unless defined, and even then it is only as a concept attached to something.

[Libertytree]

I'm reminded of the old axiom that...something is only worth what someone will give you for it. That depends on a lot of different factors though like local needs, geographical location, local economy, the list could go on and on. Barter though seems to be the freest way to accomplish trade and that can also include metals as well, not just labor and or services.

[ximmy]

::)

[Sparky]

Whatever to parties agree to will work out just fine .

...
T


If the intent is to remove power from the bankers, this really is a more practical solution than trying to create a new money. Implementing a new currency just doesn't seem realistic. Even "bitcoins" I don't really understand. I still don't understand what backs them. I don't know who will accept them.

So the real slogan in this movement should be "Promote Barter". Now that sends a message to the bankers, without everyone having to agree on a new currency. What you'll find, however, is that raw barter is really hard, without doing an FRN conversion in between. You'd really like to convert any barter item into "hours of labor", and labor would need to have multiple skill level values (like skilled, semi-skilled, unskilled, etc), so that you could give different values to digging a ditch versus tuning an engine. And commodities would have to be converted to labor hours. How many hours of tuning an engine would be equivalent to someone giving you a chicken?

[Libertytree]

Whatever to parties agree to will work out just fine .

...
T


If the intent is to remove power from the bankers, this really is a more practical solution than trying to create a new money. Implementing a new currency just doesn't seem realistic. Even "bitcoins" I don't really understand. I still don't understand what backs them. I don't know who will accept them.

So the real slogan in this movement should be "Promote Barter". Now that sends a message to the bankers, without everyone having to agree on a new currency. What you'll find, however, is that raw barter is really hard, without doing an FRN conversion in between. You'd really like to convert any barter item into "hours of labor", and labor would need to have multiple skill level values (like skilled, semi-skilled, unskilled, etc), so that you could give different values to digging a ditch versus tuning an engine. And commodities would have to be converted to labor hours. How many hours of tuning an engine would be equivalent to someone giving you a chicken?


It would have to be a mix of all commodities, and I have to stress that ALL things are a commodity, labor, parts, organic, inorganic, trust, you name it. Sometimes it's not a matter of conversion but of need, as weighs out to both parties. In a true barter system though, these commodities can be paid/traded forward, even backwards as long as all parties are satisfied. Need and want are the two equalizers at work here, either you need it or you just want it.

This system can work, sure there are wrinkles in it and that's to be expected but.....ain't none of it gonna happen until this system collapses. Even then it's gonna happen on a very small scale locally.

[Golden]

One is the unit of exchange. 0 the unit of account. The internet is another wheel of fortune.

[Sparky]

LT, along those lines, the other thing you'd need is a marketplace. If I have a chicken and I need surgery, what do I do? Do I just show up at the hospital with my chicken? And what if someone else shows up with a horse?

Worse, look it from the point of view of the surgeon. If he needs a chicken, does he go to 100 farms until he finds someone who needs surgery? And then does he require fair payment of 100 chickens, even though he only needs one? What does he do with the other 99 chickens?

There's a very good reason we have a currency system. Too bad it's busted.

[Libertytree]

LT, along those lines, the other thing you'd need is a marketplace. If I have a chicken and I need surgery, what do I do? Do I just show up at the hospital with my chicken? And what if someone else shows up with a horse?

Worse, look it from the point of view of the surgeon. If he needs a chicken, does he go to 100 farms until he finds someone who needs surgery? And then does he require fair payment of 100 chickens, even though he only needs one? What does he do with the other 99 chickens?

There's a very good reason we have a currency system. Too bad it's busted.


Sparky, The marketplace exists in a broad context, only relevant to each participant. Given your example of the doctor and the 100 farms I think they would all come to him and each of those 100 farmers wouldn't all have chickens. The skill is matched to the need, I suspect that the doc need a horse less frequently than a chicken, unless he loves horse steak.

[Hatha Sunahara]

Here's a system that just uses bookkeeping:

http://www.michaeljournal.org/localmoney.htm

If you need the 'larger context', read this:

http://www.michaeljournal.org/myth.htm

A little like bitcoins, but doesn't use logic puzzles to issue credits.


Hatha

[BabushkaLady]

I don't think we need a "new unit" to accomplish the same thing. The underground economy is alive and kicking---I think it's actually doing better then in the past. Most people I know that collect unemployment are also doing "side jobs" for cash.

Barter is going pretty well right now too. It's really about deciding what you'll take for something in dollars, then deciding what you'll give in that same unit. IE: A dirt bike worth 500FRN that I don't need nor want; trade for 500FRN worth of tree cutting. Same with the painter; same with the weed control guy; same with the mechanic. What will someone do for me in trade for exclusive hunting rights?

Anyone that does services of any kind is already participating!

[Book]

There's a very good reason we have a currency system. Too bad it's busted.



I agree.




I don't think we need a "new unit" to accomplish the same thing. The underground economy is alive and kicking---I think it's actually doing better then in the past. Most people I know that collect unemployment are also doing "side jobs" for cash.

Barter is going pretty well right now too. It's really about deciding what you'll take for something in dollars, then deciding what you'll give in that same unit...



We just need a transparent "cash" system that is open and publicly audited regularly. Stop the existing hidden jew system of accounting at the FED and Treasury and Pentagon. No American citizen even knows WHO receives interest payments on our National Debt. WHO does our grandchildren allegedly "owe" 14 TRILLION dollars to?

WHO?

[willie pete]

There's a very good reason we have a currency system. Too bad it's busted.



I agree.




I don't think we need a "new unit" to accomplish the same thing. The underground economy is alive and kicking---I think it's actually doing better then in the past. Most people I know that collect unemployment are also doing "side jobs" for cash.

Barter is going pretty well right now too. It's really about deciding what you'll take for something in dollars, then deciding what you'll give in that same unit...



We just need a transparent "cash" system that is open and publicly audited regularly. Stop the existing hidden jew system of accounting at the FED and Treasury and Pentagon. No American citizen even knows WHO receives interest payments on our National Debt. WHO does our grandchildren allegedly "owe" 14 TRILLION dollars to?

WHO?




wouldn't it be ANYONE who bought US debt? ...debt could even be a US Savings Bond or T-Bill .....how much do they say China holds? 1t? ...I'm sure the federal reserve cartel skims off the majority of it...

[Horn]

This one also carries the side benefit of a limited lifespan (to avoid hoarding).

http://masterview.ikonosnewmedia.com/images/bullets_mod_size350.jpg

[BabushkaLady]

I don't think we need a "new unit" to accomplish the same thing. The underground economy is alive and kicking---I think it's actually doing better then in the past. Most people I know that collect unemployment are also doing "side jobs" for cash.

Barter is going pretty well right now too. It's really about deciding what you'll take for something in dollars, then deciding what you'll give in that same unit...



We just need a transparent "cash" system that is open and publicly audited regularly. Stop the existing hidden jew system of accounting at the FED and Treasury and Pentagon. No American citizen even knows WHO receives interest payments on our National Debt. WHO does our grandchildren allegedly "owe" 14 TRILLION dollars to?

WHO?


I don't disagree with you. I'm just not holding out any "hope" that the system now in place is going to "change".

So if you can't beat'em--screw them a little every chance you get.

[Large Sarge]

the austrian school of economics recommends gold & silver for this reason

"unit of account" or "money" is an economic yardstick, a measuring system.

thats all.

what you are recommending might work locally, and in limited ways, but its not really a unit of measure.

but in an "end of the world scenario" its better than nothing.

Hard to beat gold and silver as a "unit of account"

[Sparky]

...

Barter is going pretty well right now too. It's really about deciding what you'll take for something in dollars, then deciding what you'll give in that same unit. IE: A dirt bike worth 500FRN that I don't need nor want; trade for 500FRN worth of tree cutting.
...


Ah, but you've fallen into the trap. You're relying on the mainstream market to price that dirt bike at 500 FRNs, and how much tree cutting you get for 500 FRNs. That's exactly my point; bartering is actually easier when there's a parallel banking system to set a large marketplace price on things.

[BillBoard]

::)


SO YOU KNOW. WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO CREATE A MARKET?

[BillBoard]

Anyone here seen this:

https://ripplepay.com/

[BillBoard]

Anyone here seen this:

https://ripplepay.com/


Would be interesting to see if we could get something like this going with GSUS. Who would trust who is GSUS and for how much...

[Sparky]

Our current money system began with all these concepts, but got corrupted. What's to say ripple, bitcoins, etc., won't be corrupted? How much of your "wealth" are you going to trust to your personal internet node? Also, aren't all of these currencies essentially fiat? There's nothing tangible there.

[BillBoard]

Our current money system began with all these concepts, but got corrupted. What's to say ripple, bitcoins, etc., won't be corrupted? How much of your "wealth" are you going to trust to your personal internet node? Also, aren't all of these currencies essentially fiat? There's nothing tangible there.


Ok, where do I begin?

Any money system will be corrupted where the borrower does not comprehends USURY and the lender does.

All money systems are fiat, even those where the medium of exchange is something tangible.

Keep in mind that money is ANYTHING that the MOST AMOUNT OF PEOPLE will accept at ANY TIME. In other words, money has the highest average demand above anything, even food, since money is used to purchase food.