Stephen Hawking: 'Heaven is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark'.

[Ponce]

Glad to see that someone smarter than me agrees that heaven is made for those who are afraid of death.
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Stephen Hawking: 'Heaven is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark'.
By Lydia Warren

Last updated at 3:20 PM on 16th May 2011

Atheist: Stephen Hawking said 'there is no afterlife' and that there is no need for God to explain our existence
Britain's most famous scientist has branded heaven and the afterlife ‘a fairy story’ for people afraid of death.
Stephen Hawking dismissed the idea that life continues after our body shuts down.
His comments came in reference to his own illness, motor neurone disease, which struck him down aged 21, leaving him almost paralysed.
The incurable illness was expected to kill Hawking within a few years of its first symptoms but he has said that it has allowed him to enjoy life more.
‘I have lived with the prospect of an early death for the last 49 years,' he told The Guardian.

'I’m not afraid of death, but I’m in no hurry to die. I have so much I want to do first.
‘I regard the brain as a computer which will stop working when its components fail.

'There is no heaven or afterlife for broken down computers; that is a fairy story for people afraid of the dark.’
As well as rejecting the idea of life after death, Hawking, 69, suggested everyone must live life to the fullest while they still have it.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1387478/Stephen-Hawking-Heaven-fairy-story-people-afraid-dark.html#ixzz1MTM31waz

[Ares]

That old cripple talking again? :oo-->

There is indeed an after life. I've read countless Near Death Experience cases involving everyone from a Christian to a Hindu and everyone in between. They account similar instances upon dieing. Bright light, life is a test, you aren't ready and have to go back. etc. etc.

Your conscience is a form of energy, it is not destroyed after death but only transforms. Even an idiot like Hawking should realize that.

[Uncle Salty]

Really Stephen?

Stick to math and physics. You are above your pay grade when talking about the afterlife.

[StreetsOfGold]

Hawkins is a blank fool. He'll be in hell before he knows it and imaging there's no heaven, no hell (John Lennon) will become WISHFUL thinking as he burns like a torch, frys like bacon, sizzles like sausage and smokes like a marshmallow.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved

[Ponce]

Uncle Salty? and what is your "pay grade?".......your belief, and not your experience, is the only pay grade that you possess.........I for one have been clynically dead three time and never saw anything, went to sleep and I woke up...period.

[mick silver]

i have also been dead once ... i just dont remeber once i came around . so i will leave the door open

[Ares]

Uncle Salty? and what is your "pay grade?".......your belief, and not your experience, is the only pay grade that you possess.........I for one have been clynically dead three time and never saw anything, went to sleep and I woke up...period.


From my reading and understanding the afterlife is whatever you believe. If you believe heaven is a place where you sit and worship god all day long on clouds with cherubs playing harps. Then that is where you will go. If you believe there is nothing and is all darkness and a void, then that is also where you will go. The best advice I read is control your thoughts as they will determine your actions and surroundings on the "other side." One interesting account is of a person who thought that he were going to hell, and sure enough was in hell (he was a suicide). He cried out to god and was saved and told to go back and to complete his life.


My grand mother was clinically dead from a heart surgery back in 1999. She said she saw a bright light with a long tunnel. Was told that her life was not over yet, and that she needed to return. As soon as the doctor called the time of death her heart started beating again.

[sirgonzo420]

Hawkins is a blank fool. He'll be in hell before he knows it and imaging there's no heaven, no hell (John Lennon) will become WISHFUL thinking as he burns like a torch, frys like bacon, sizzles like sausage and smokes like a marshmallow.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved




spoken like a true, merciful, christian.

[keehah]

That old cripple talking again? :oo-->

There is indeed an after life. I've read countless Near Death Experience cases involving everyone from a Christian to a Hindu and everyone in between. They account similar instances upon dieing. Bright light, life is a test, you aren't ready and have to go back. etc. etc.

Your conscience is a form of energy, it is not destroyed after death but only transforms. Even an idiot like Hawking should realize that.


"Near Death" is not dead.

Many of those who claim the dark will not come for them eventually also tend to deny any involvement with evil and project it on to others.

But I have to admit SH is full of shit on black holes and such and trotted out to help keep people asleep on many issues.

[Ash_Williams]

There is indeed an after life. I've read countless Near Death Experience cases involving everyone from a Christian to a Hindu and everyone in between. They account similar instances upon dieing. Bright light, life is a test, you aren't ready and have to go back. etc. etc.

Dead once here. Nothing.
It doesn't mean anything to collect all the stories of people who had (or said they had) experiences while ignoring all the people who did not.


Your conscience is a form of energy, it is not destroyed after death but only transforms. Even an idiot like Hawking should realize that.

Maybe, maybe not. There's no coherent ball of energy in your head or anything. An engine can keep producing energy as long as it has fuel but once it seizes up and stops, it's stops, and any remaining energy just gets dissipated. Is the engine still alive because the energy it produce can't be destroyed?

[Ares]

Maybe, maybe not. There's no coherent ball of energy in your head or anything. An engine can keep producing energy as long as it has fuel but once it seizes up and stops, it's stops, and any remaining energy just gets dissipated. Is the engine still alive because the energy it produce can't be destroyed?

Not everyone who dies does experience an NDE. No rhyme or reason to it.

Your comparing apples and oranges. The energy is the fuel like you said, the energy has served it's purpose and was transformed into CO2, and other combustion by-products. The engine is just a tool, just like the body is just a tool for the spirit/soul to stay, interact, and grow in this world. Once the body dies the soul "lives" on.

The people who have NDE's describe close to the same thing in all accounts. That's too much to just be a coincidence especially when you have a devote atheist coming back and praising god.

[lapis]

Sounds like he's just stirring sh*t up again, like when he talked about aliens last year (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/space/article7107207.ece).

I find the NDE accounts fascinating too, and am more open to their being real after having had my own out-of-body experience once.

[Uncle Salty]

Uncle Salty? and what is your "pay grade?".......your belief, and not your experience, is the only pay grade that you possess.........I for one have been clynically dead three time and never saw anything, went to sleep and I woke up...period.


My pay grade does not matter. I am not going around telling anyone about the afterlife...telling people that they are fools for believing in one. He simply is not qualified to tell others whether a heaven exists. If he believes it himself, fine. Just leave it at that.

[oldmansmith]

Sounds like he's just stirring sh*t up again, like when he talked about aliens last year (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/space/article7107207.ece).

I find the NDE accounts fascinating too, and am more open to their being real after having had my own out-of-body experience once.


No near-deaths for me, but having had numerous OBE's changes your perspective greatly. I'm pretty sure that something happens when and after you die. Our awareness is not bound to the body.

[cthulu]

scientists...lol. there is definitely a life after death just like the visible spectrum is only a tiny sliver of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. That's why all these sick, disgusting people like cheney are so afraid to die, whereas the truth-seeker sees death as a gateway to liberation. It's a lot like how obi juan looks just right before he is struck down by darth vader....

Obi-Wan: You can't win, Darth. If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine.

[Ponce]

Well, my final thoughts on this......what will be will be and there is nothing that I can do about it........but, I would like to put my little tiny itsi bitsi brain in a computer ......to me that's more possible that going to "heaven".

[Spectrism]

You have to feel sorry for that little man.

All he has to live for is the nothing that he has to die for.

[ShortJohnSilver]

What I don't understand is , "if God doesn't exist, why are so many people angry at Him?"

[cortez]

i'd hate god too if i was a freak in a wheelchair

[ximmy]

What I don't understand is , "if God doesn't exist, why are so many people angry at Him?"


They want someone to prove god exists to them, pretending it is a challenge, but it is really a desire that they personally have, to believe in god... they want to believe, but lack the faith required...

I imagine the misery makes them speak out, almost as a cry for help... That is not a happy or hopeful state of being... :(

and the religioso makes things worse, with cheap talk of faith & theological definitions...

Both are sad... indeed

[JDRock]

^^ what ximmy said + 1

[Spectrism]

What I don't understand is , "if God doesn't exist, why are so many people angry at Him?"


They want someone to prove god exists to them, pretending it is a challenge, but it is really a desire that they personally have, to believe in god... they want to believe, but lack the faith required...

I imagine the misery makes them speak out, almost as a cry for help... That is not a happy or hopeful state of being... :(

and the religioso makes things worse, with cheap talk of faith & theological definitions...

Both are sad... indeed




Sorry Ximmy.... but faith is given to all. We all have the ability to kill our own pride and submit to belief in the Messiah. Even a child can do this. But a self-important, proud and knowledgeable educated idiot would not think to humble himself to such a thing. A man who can study the intricate detail of the universe and not see God is a blind man indeed.

[madfranks]

a freak in a wheelchair


Post of the year! :D

[ximmy]

What I don't understand is , "if God doesn't exist, why are so many people angry at Him?"


They want someone to prove god exists to them, pretending it is a challenge, but it is really a desire that they personally have, to believe in god... they want to believe, but lack the faith required...

I imagine the misery makes them speak out, almost as a cry for help... That is not a happy or hopeful state of being... :(

and the religioso makes things worse, with cheap talk of faith & theological definitions...

Both are sad... indeed




Sorry Ximmy.... but faith is given to all. We all have the ability to kill our own pride and submit to belief in the Messiah. Even a child can do this. But a self-important, proud and knowledgeable educated idiot would not think to humble himself to such a thing. A man who can study the intricate detail of the universe and not see God is a blind man indeed.



why are you saying sorry???

[madfranks]

That's why all these sick, disgusting people like cheney are so afraid to die, whereas the truth-seeker sees death as a gateway to liberation.


Phillipians 1:23-25 - For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all

[Spectrism]

What I don't understand is , "if God doesn't exist, why are so many people angry at Him?"


They want someone to prove god exists to them, pretending it is a challenge, but it is really a desire that they personally have, to believe in god... they want to believe, but lack the faith required...

I imagine the misery makes them speak out, almost as a cry for help... That is not a happy or hopeful state of being... :(

and the religioso makes things worse, with cheap talk of faith & theological definitions...

Both are sad... indeed




Sorry Ximmy.... but faith is given to all. We all have the ability to kill our own pride and submit to belief in the Messiah. Even a child can do this. But a self-important, proud and knowledgeable educated idiot would not think to humble himself to such a thing. A man who can study the intricate detail of the universe and not see God is a blind man indeed.



why are you saying sorry???


Sorry to disagree with you...

Hawking was making fun of the "dark-phobes" (those afraid of the dark who want a fantasy heaven) and he brought ridicule on himself. He is the fool. Not my words, but HIS:

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

[ximmy]

What I don't understand is , "if God doesn't exist, why are so many people angry at Him?"


They want someone to prove god exists to them, pretending it is a challenge, but it is really a desire that they personally have, to believe in god... they want to believe, but lack the faith required...

I imagine the misery makes them speak out, almost as a cry for help... That is not a happy or hopeful state of being... :(

and the religioso makes things worse, with cheap talk of faith & theological definitions...

Both are sad... indeed




Sorry Ximmy.... but faith is given to all. We all have the ability to kill our own pride and submit to belief in the Messiah. Even a child can do this. But a self-important, proud and knowledgeable educated idiot would not think to humble himself to such a thing. A man who can study the intricate detail of the universe and not see God is a blind man indeed.



why are you saying sorry???


Sorry to disagree with you...

Hawking was making fun of the "dark-phobes" (those afraid of the dark who want a fantasy heaven) and he brought ridicule on himself. He is the fool. Not my words, but HIS:

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.



ok... I thought you were saying hawking has faith, and I said he does not have faith...

[Ponce]

Just don't go to a gun fight with only a Bible.....or you will be burried with it.

[Spectrism]

What I don't understand is , "if God doesn't exist, why are so many people angry at Him?"


They want someone to prove god exists to them, pretending it is a challenge, but it is really a desire that they personally have, to believe in god... they want to believe, but lack the faith required...

I imagine the misery makes them speak out, almost as a cry for help... That is not a happy or hopeful state of being... :(

and the religioso makes things worse, with cheap talk of faith & theological definitions...

Both are sad... indeed




Sorry Ximmy.... but faith is given to all. We all have the ability to kill our own pride and submit to belief in the Messiah. Even a child can do this. But a self-important, proud and knowledgeable educated idiot would not think to humble himself to such a thing. A man who can study the intricate detail of the universe and not see God is a blind man indeed.



why are you saying sorry???


Sorry to disagree with you...

Hawking was making fun of the "dark-phobes" (those afraid of the dark who want a fantasy heaven) and he brought ridicule on himself. He is the fool. Not my words, but HIS:

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.



ok... I thought you were saying hawking has faith, and I said he does not have faith...


Oh- he has killed his faith.

Faith is like a seed. We are all given a little and we decide then, whether we will nurture it and let it grow, or we will stomp on it and kill it. So, I guess I agree with you- that his faith is dead.


Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

[ximmy]

What I don't understand is , "if God doesn't exist, why are so many people angry at Him?"


They want someone to prove god exists to them, pretending it is a challenge, but it is really a desire that they personally have, to believe in god... they want to believe, but lack the faith required...

I imagine the misery makes them speak out, almost as a cry for help... That is not a happy or hopeful state of being... :(

and the religioso makes things worse, with cheap talk of faith & theological definitions...

Both are sad... indeed




Sorry Ximmy.... but faith is given to all. We all have the ability to kill our own pride and submit to belief in the Messiah. Even a child can do this. But a self-important, proud and knowledgeable educated idiot would not think to humble himself to such a thing. A man who can study the intricate detail of the universe and not see God is a blind man indeed.



why are you saying sorry???


Sorry to disagree with you...

Hawking was making fun of the "dark-phobes" (those afraid of the dark who want a fantasy heaven) and he brought ridicule on himself. He is the fool. Not my words, but HIS:

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.



ok... I thought you were saying hawking has faith, and I said he does not have faith...


Oh- he has killed his faith.

Faith is like a seed. We are all given a little and we decide then, whether we will nurture it and let it grow, or we will stomp on it and kill it. So, I guess I agree with you- that his faith is dead.


I guess we don't agree then;
And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil people, for not everyone has faith. (2Thes. 3:2)

[ximmy]

Your quoting Romans out of context, btw... but that's why ximmy is here... :P to correct the error... :D

Paul is speaking to believers, not unbelievers...

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Humble Service in the Body of Christ

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

[keehah]

We have drifted from belief in going to heaven after death to qualities of a person with faith in god. The two are different issues IMO.





What I don't understand is , "if God doesn't exist, why are so many people angry at Him?"


They want someone to prove god exists to them, pretending it is a challenge, but it is really a desire that they personally have, to believe in god... they want to believe, but lack the faith required...

I imagine the misery makes them speak out, almost as a cry for help... That is not a happy or hopeful state of being... :(

and the religioso makes things worse, with cheap talk of faith & theological definitions...

Both are sad... indeed



That is an apt description of what I went through as a child of about 12 escaping the capstone of Catholic mind control.


I did not submit to the sociopathic belief in the Messiah. Did not become a self-important ape who saw the creator of the universe as another ape like creature. Too humble or free at too young an age to get how a man can study the intricate detail of the universe and see God as a partially haired ape and every similar ape with the right or hell of a desire to exist in some unchanged mental state for ever and ever.

[Horn]

How do explain this act of an opposing thumb, keehah?

http://www.gods-10-commandments.com/images/tencommandments_finger.gif

[keehah]

How do explain this act of an opposing thumb, keehah?

http://www.agreatlakesjewel.org/a-great-lakes-jewel-layout/play-1.jpg

Codified rules to keep the old weak King in power.
Hidden alchemy and astrology for excess entropy worship from the mundane tricked into the death cults.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdF6M2FBKG4

The planet can only survive with a dominant culture of green thumbs. Act as god does.
Evil is enabled from an attitude all but one sex of one type of partially hairy ape is just here to be used and consumed.

[Bullion_Bob]

Which version of heaven will I go to is what I'm wondering. What if I change religions mid stream? Which god gets to pick where I go?

What if my go Buddhist, and all my relatives were christian? Can I skip having to run into my mother in law?

[cortez]

Which version of heaven will I go to is what I'm wondering. What if I change religions mid stream? Which god gets to pick where I go?

What if my go Buddhist, and all my relatives were christian? Can I skip having to run into my mother in law?


us Buddhists believe in the teaching that Heaven and Hell are not permanent states of being.

[Ponce]

If you need a "Bible" to tell you when you are good or bad.....or that there is even a "God".....then you really don't have anything.................."God" doesn't need a Bible, church or preachers and you don't need magic words to get in contact with him........he is always there, either you can feel him or your don't.

[Horn]

either you can feel him or your don't.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Sqrtj9p7ZU

[StreetsOfGold]

Hawkins is a blank fool. He'll be in hell before he knows it and imaging there's no heaven, no hell (John Lennon) will become WISHFUL thinking as he burns like a torch, frys like bacon, sizzles like sausage and smokes like a marshmallow.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved




spoken like a true, merciful, christian.



actually that was spoken like a street preacher :)

[Ponce]

Old Lady? once you know that there is one then the rest doesn't matter......and if I talk about it is only because it makes me angry that something so simple people likes to make it complicated by putting out that which was created by man for man and not for the one........the "One" is there and that's all that counts.

[Son-of-Liberty]

i'd hate god too if i was a freak in a wheelchair


Exactly the guy is a cripple, hates god and would rather that he didn't exist at least then he could chalk up his life to random bad luck. The problem I have with hawking is that he gets way more credit then he deserves. He is smart that is for sure but that doesn't mean that all his theories are true.

[Bullion_Bob]

I've always wondered where god goes when the universe goes supernova.

If absolutely everything everywhere suddenly gets incinerated in a blinding flash of heat and light...where else is there left to be or go while this is happening?

[sirgonzo420]

I've always wondered where god goes when the universe goes supernova.

If absolutely everything everywhere suddenly gets incinerated in a blinding flash of heat and light...where else is there left to be or go while this is happening?





A *physical* god might be destroyed, but not a non-physical, extra-physical, or super-physical god.

[illumin19]

i'd hate god too if i was a freak in a wheelchair


Exactly the guy is a cripple, hates god and would rather that he didn't exist at least then he could chalk up his life to random bad luck. The problem I have with hawking is that he gets way more credit then he deserves. He is smart that is for sure but that doesn't mean that all his theories are true.


You know, when i first heard this on the radio about Mr. Hawking.....I actually thought of this song by "Social Distortion".


The last verse really hits home on what I got from him, but this song overall sums it up. Though it doesn't bother me in the least on "his opinion", because that's what it is. I actually feel bad for him because of his condition........

Check out below at 3:03-3:18 in the video :-\

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQOJY4NXYzM&feature=related

[Bullion_Bob]

I've always wondered where god goes when the universe goes supernova.

If absolutely everything everywhere suddenly gets incinerated in a blinding flash of heat and light...where else is there left to be or go while this is happening?





A *physical* god might be destroyed, but not a non-physical, extra-physical, or super-physical god.


I'm not sure I know what that ultimately means. If the universe is everything, and thus everything contained inside of it, and that all gets obliterated/scrambled/rearranged, I'm not sure what could possibly remain in tact that used to exist up until that point.

[Ares]

I've always wondered where god goes when the universe goes supernova.

If absolutely everything everywhere suddenly gets incinerated in a blinding flash of heat and light...where else is there left to be or go while this is happening?





A *physical* god might be destroyed, but not a non-physical, extra-physical, or super-physical god.


I'm not sure I know what that ultimately means. If the universe is everything, and thus everything contained inside of it, and that all gets obliterated/scrambled/rearranged, I'm not sure what could possibly remain in tact that used to exist up until that point.


Read a little bit of Quantum Physics, you'll learn that this Universe is one of an endless number of different universes in existence.

If this one goes poof, there is always another.

[Bullion_Bob]

I've always wondered where god goes when the universe goes supernova.

If absolutely everything everywhere suddenly gets incinerated in a blinding flash of heat and light...where else is there left to be or go while this is happening?




A *physical* god might be destroyed, but not a non-physical, extra-physical, or super-physical god.


I'm not sure I know what that ultimately means. If the universe is everything, and thus everything contained inside of it, and that all gets obliterated/scrambled/rearranged, I'm not sure what could possibly remain in tact that used to exist up until that point.


Read a little bit of Quantum Physics, you'll learn that this Universe is one of an endless number of different universes in existence.

If this one goes poof, there is always another.


I suppose the question then is the capability of the matter of one quantum universe to interact with another, as they would have to be be mutually exclusive on a physical etc? level so as not to be affected when one is obliterated.

Then if there are untold universes out there and were set out as the center of it, and we're the only life forms, I think there's some editorial problems with the narrative in the instruction booklet.

[Spectrism]

Your quoting Romans out of context, btw... but that's why ximmy is here... :P to correct the error... :D

Paul is speaking to believers, not unbelievers...

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Humble Service in the Body of Christ

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.


I love it! Ximmy is teaching the bile. Excellent.

You are pointing out valid ideas and context is very important. The translation you are using is a soft one. Let's take a look at this concept. While it is true that believers were being spoken to here, so it can be said for most of the new testament writings. But now we have another distinction. Let's look at those before they are born in the Spirit. They are either destined to hell (judgment) or they are to be saved by grace through faith. This can get into a Calvinism argument... but we can skip that.

Before salvation we are all sinners. How are we saved?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We see here that before being believers, we are given faith. Grace = gift. Why would we need to be given faith? Because we are all dead in our sins- spiritually dead. The faith given us is the ability to choose life or continue in death.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is the way God works. He gave mankind choice. We choose and He enables our choice.

In our sin nature we cannot please God. He makes it possible with a gift.

Unbelief is the hardening of your heart against the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is the choice of "no" or death, when confronted by God.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

So, if I understand your argument, you claim that Hawking should be excused because he does not have faith. I say, he is not excused because he does not have faith. Faith gives us the Messiah, who is our pass from judgment.

[Spectrism]

I've always wondered where god goes when the universe goes supernova.

If absolutely everything everywhere suddenly gets incinerated in a blinding flash of heat and light...where else is there left to be or go while this is happening?



When was the last time YOU saw the universe "go supernova"? Your comment has the arrogance of stupidity wrapped in a blanket of proud ignorance.

Do you think the Creator is so small that His creation is greater? It is like saying- I wonder how the potter survives when all his pots fall off the shelf and break.

[ximmy]

Your quoting Romans out of context, btw... but that's why ximmy is here... :P to correct the error... :D

Paul is speaking to believers, not unbelievers...

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Humble Service in the Body of Christ

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.


I love it! Ximmy is teaching the bile. Excellent.

You are pointing out valid ideas and context is very important. The translation you are using is a soft one. Let's take a look at this concept. While it is true that believers were being spoken to here, so it can be said for most of the new testament writings. But now we have another distinction. Let's look at those before they are born in the Spirit. They are either destined to hell (judgment) or they are to be saved by grace through faith. This can get into a Calvinism argument... but we can skip that.

Before salvation we are all sinners. How are we saved?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We see here that before being believers, we are given faith. Grace = gift. Why would we need to be given faith? Because we are all dead in our sins- spiritually dead. The faith given us is the ability to choose life or continue in death.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is the way God works. He gave mankind choice. We choose and He enables our choice.

In our sin nature we cannot please God. He makes it possible with a gift.

Unbelief is the hardening of your heart against the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is the choice of "no" or death, when confronted by God.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

So, if I understand your argument, you claim that Hawking should be excused because he does not have faith. I say, he is not excused because he does not have faith. Faith gives us the Messiah, who is our pass from judgment.


Noted and read.

It is good you did not push calvinism, that demonic cult that embraces jews and zionism.

Deuteronomy is OT jewish, mosaic law, not valid for xians either... hebrews has some merit.

I considered hawking earlier after my last reply, Is he, or was he a practicing jew??? That has bearing.. Jews were given a measure of faith and failed to exercise it, if so, I'd agree, he is dead in his sin and rejected.

If he is a gentile then, the gentiles come to faith through hearing, he has simply not heard and responded at this time.

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17)

regarding "soft" translations, I can totally destroy that pathetic idea... if needed ;D ;D ;D

[Spectrism]

Deuteronomy is OT jewish, mosaic law, not valid for xians either... hebrews has some merit.

Who told you that????

It is a lie. The same WORD of the OT is in the NT. Oooops... lying is in the OT too. So that does not apply either?

[ximmy]

Deuteronomy is OT jewish, mosaic law, not valid for xians either... hebrews has some merit.

Who told you that????

It is a lie. The same WORD of the OT is in the NT. Oooops... lying is in the OT too. So that does not apply either?


The entire epistles of Paul tell me ... from beginning to end... You work it out... good god...

You really don't understand the gospel do you...

OMG... you just quoted the torah (law) of the jews and are trying to make if valid for all people.

"whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5: 4).

[Bullion_Bob]

I've always wondered where god goes when the universe goes supernova.

If absolutely everything everywhere suddenly gets incinerated in a blinding flash of heat and light...where else is there left to be or go while this is happening?



When was the last time YOU saw the universe "go supernova"? Your comment has the arrogance of stupidity wrapped in a blanket of proud ignorance.

Do you think the Creator is so small that His creation is greater? It is like saying- I wonder how the potter survives when all his pots fall off the shelf and break.


Big bang theory perhaps? I mean one could go on all known observable conclusions which point to this phenomena taking place, or one could go on something invisible, which has no observable conclusions.

[Bullion_Bob]

There's also the idea of creating something out of nothing, which couldn't have been "nothing" in the first place, as something that is truly nothing can't actually contain anything to actually become something.

In other words, if someone tells me out of the dark void of nothingness came everything from a creator, I'd say it was not "nothing" to begin with otherwise it would still be nothing.

So if it was all already here, what was created exactly?

[Neuro]

If there ever was a choice of only one pseudoscientific discipline, I think I would name Quantum Mechanics/Theory. The amount of bullshit these guys spout, and at the same time pretend it has something to do with science is astounding... I think the whole purpose of it is to distort thinking peoples sense of reality...

[Mouse]

If there ever was a choice of only one pseudoscientific discipline, I think I would name Quantum Mechanics/Theory. The amount of Bullshit these guys spout, and at the same time pretend it has something to do with science is astounding... I think the whole purpose of it is to distort thinking peoples sense of reality...


I have read a lot of Hawkings works, and years ago, I thought a lot of it was very interesting and compelling. I now see the guy as a bitter old rancid nut, that has been stewing too long in his own juices. Quantum theory and the high science of today, is the evil that will destroy us all. The belief that we are smarter than God and can outwit his plan, is the basis of the war on God, and the basis of our whole human conundrum. Those that believe they are higher than God can have their science and tech. Right now, it would appear that they are winning. I love knowledge and study, but to look at where the science has taken us forces us to take a stand - I am at war with God, or I am at peace with God.

I try to be at peace as much as possible. I don't believe we can solve the problems and I don't believe in technocracy utopian science outcomes. The tree of knowledge has not enlightened us in our path.

[Neuro]

Interesting point Mouse. I thought of Quantum Mechanics theories, more as a war on rational scientific enquiry, but I can see that it is also an attack on spiritual matters and philosophy

[Spectrism]

Deuteronomy is OT jewish, mosaic law, not valid for xians either... hebrews has some merit.

Who told you that????

It is a lie. The same WORD of the OT is in the NT. Oooops... lying is in the OT too. So that does not apply either?


The entire epistles of Paul tell me ... from beginning to end... You work it out... good god...

You really don't understand the gospel do you...

OMG... you just quoted the torah (law) of the jews and are trying to make if valid for all people.

"whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5: 4).


For the redeemed, the Old Testament has NOTHING to do with being justified!!!!

How do you think the new testament is understood without the old? There is NO place in the New Testament that says the old is not valid for study and understanding. Further, how do you figure the 10 commandments are no longer valid?

The old testament is not from the jews. The jews are the tribe of Judah- one of the original 12 tribes.

Show me where in any of the new testament that it says now believers should go about sinning and violating the laws of the torah!!! SHOW ME!!!

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

And how do we know what is wicked or what is evil?

[Spectrism]

There's also the idea of creating something out of nothing, which couldn't have been "nothing" in the first place, as something that is truly nothing can't actually contain anything to actually become something.

In other words, if someone tells me out of the dark void of nothingness came everything from a creator, I'd say it was not "nothing" to begin with otherwise it would still be nothing.

So if it was all already here, what was created exactly?



YOU have an unending dilemma. Never can you find the beginning. And, this happens to match up with an infinite God who had no beginning. When you can reach back a million trillion zillion years and still be no closer to the beginning, you need to realize that you are limited by time. God is not. He created time, matter and energy with the laws that organize them.

[7th trump]

Your quoting Romans out of context, btw... but that's why ximmy is here... :P to correct the error... :D

Paul is speaking to believers, not unbelievers...

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Humble Service in the Body of Christ

3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.


I love it! Ximmy is teaching the bile. Excellent.

You are pointing out valid ideas and context is very important. The translation you are using is a soft one. Let's take a look at this concept. While it is true that believers were being spoken to here, so it can be said for most of the new testament writings. But now we have another distinction. Let's look at those before they are born in the Spirit. They are either destined to hell (judgment) or they are to be saved by grace through faith. This can get into a Calvinism argument... but we can skip that.

Before salvation we are all sinners. How are we saved?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

We see here that before being believers, we are given faith. Grace = gift. Why would we need to be given faith? Because we are all dead in our sins- spiritually dead. The faith given us is the ability to choose life or continue in death.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
Deu 30:20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

This is the way God works. He gave mankind choice. We choose and He enables our choice.

In our sin nature we cannot please God. He makes it possible with a gift.

Unbelief is the hardening of your heart against the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It is the choice of "no" or death, when confronted by God.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

So, if I understand your argument, you claim that Hawking should be excused because he does not have faith. I say, he is not excused because he does not have faith. Faith gives us the Messiah, who is our pass from judgment.


Noted and read.

It is good you did not push calvinism, that demonic cult that embraces jews and zionism.

Deuteronomy is OT jewish, mosaic law, not valid for xians either... hebrews has some merit.

I considered hawking earlier after my last reply, Is he, or was he a practicing jew??? That has bearing.. Jews were given a measure of faith and failed to exercise it, if so, I'd agree, he is dead in his sin and rejected.

If he is a gentile then, the gentiles come to faith through hearing, he has simply not heard and responded at this time.

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17)

regarding "soft" translations, I can totally destroy that pathetic idea... if needed ;D ;D ;D



The gentiles are the colored races ximmy!
Hawkings is not of colored desent leaving him either a kenite jew or from one of the 12 tribes.

[7th trump]

Deuteronomy is OT jewish, mosaic law, not valid for xians either... hebrews has some merit.

Who told you that????

It is a lie. The same WORD of the OT is in the NT. Oooops... lying is in the OT too. So that does not apply either?


The entire epistles of Paul tell me ... from beginning to end... You work it out... good god...

You really don't understand the gospel do you...

OMG... you just quoted the torah (law) of the jews and are trying to make if valid for all people.

"whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5: 4).


For the redeemed, the Old Testament has NOTHING to do with being justified!!!!

How do you think the new testament is understood without the old? There is NO place in the New Testament that says the old is not valid for study and understanding. Further, how do you figure the 10 commandments are no longer valid?

The old testament is not from the jews. The jews are the tribe of Judah- one of the original 12 tribes.

Show me where in any of the new testament that it says now believers should go about sinning and violating the laws of the torah!!! SHOW ME!!!

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

And how do we know what is wicked or what is evil?

ximmy really makes herself..................well I'm not even going to say. ximmy says it herself.
Anyway, the only things that have changed from the old to the new are two things.

1. All blood sacrifices have been removed with the nailing of Christ on the cross. Christ was the last blood sacrifice.
2. The time satan is physically on this earth fooling the world into worshipping him as Christ is shortened to 5 months from 7 years.
Thats it nothing else has changed!

God Himself says not one letter of the law has been changed. Every T is crossed and every I is properly dotted.
The Ten Commandments still stand today and have full effect to your judgement come that day.

[Bullion_Bob]

There's also the idea of creating something out of nothing, which couldn't have been "nothing" in the first place, as something that is truly nothing can't actually contain anything to actually become something.

In other words, if someone tells me out of the dark void of nothingness came everything from a creator, I'd say it was not "nothing" to begin with otherwise it would still be nothing.

So if it was all already here, what was created exactly?



YOU have an unending dilemma. Never can you find the beginning. And, this happens to match up with an infinite God who had no beginning. When you can reach back a million trillion zillion years and still be no closer to the beginning, you need to realize that you are limited by time. God is not. He created time, matter and energy with the laws that organize them.


Unless you have proof the dilemma is entirely yours as well.

There is at least some tangible proof of a cataclysmic explosion creating everything observable in this reality, yet I'm the one laden with arrogant stupidity. Right. I think I know how that works for you.

Something that strikes me as rather self explanatoryas to the roots of man's development in the "great book of narrative", was that even suggesting the earth revolved around anything else, was blasphemous, and punishable by the church, and it gets substantially far fetched and erroneous the further back you look.

::)

[gunDriller]

Hawkins is a blank fool. He'll be in hell before he knows it and imaging there's no heaven, no hell (John Lennon) will become WISHFUL thinking as he burns like a torch, frys like bacon, sizzles like sausage and smokes like a marshmallow.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved

personally, i think it's a mistake to think we know for sure what happens after death - either way.

one of the most simple statements i've heard on the subject was recounted by one person after such an experience. they asked & were told, "we recycle souls".

i liked that. could have been a dream, or a combination of adrenaline & hyperspeed cognition associated with near-death, i don't know.

[7th trump]

Hawkins is a blank fool. He'll be in hell before he knows it and imaging there's no heaven, no hell (John Lennon) will become WISHFUL thinking as he burns like a torch, frys like bacon, sizzles like sausage and smokes like a marshmallow.

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved

personally, i think it's a mistake to think we know for sure what happens after death - either way.

one of the most simple statements i've heard on the subject was recounted by one person after such an experience. they asked & were told, "we recycle souls".

i liked that. could have been a dream, or a combination of adrenaline & hyperspeed cognition associated with near-death, i don't know.


Quite easy to know what goes on after death of the flesh. You can read about it in the Bible at several locations.
Read the book of Luke.
Lots of detail in Luke of what life is after the death of the flesh for both the righteous and the wicked.
And no, nobody sizzles in hell for eternity. In fact, the firey pit isnt even created until the great White Thrown Judgement and those who go into the pit are destroyed with fire from within. Never to return, uncreated, as in doesnt exist any longer.
After that the pit is closed up for ever and wiped from the memory of those who overcame.

We do not recycle souls. We are in the flesh only once for testing. Hence the "old testiment" and "new testiment".

[goldleaf]

This " Freak in a wheelchair" should be offering up his present suffering
for his past sins and we as believers should be praying for his conversion.

[Ponce]

Well Goldleaft, where ever he goes so will I........HE DID NOT SAY THAT HE DID NOT BELIEVE IN GOD BUT SIMPLY THAT THERE WAS NO HEAVEN.

The Bible was created for man by man and not by God or for God, or even in the name of God, for God is not in need of a public relation szar.

[Awoke]

The Bible was indeed created by God, for man.

[Ponce]

Awoke? I would like him to sign my Bible for me......where should I go to?

PS: Send me the article where he says that he created the Bible for man.

[skid]

I don't know what to believe, but I certainly don't believe that god chose 1 small desert tribe to be his chosen group. Why would he not expose his word to all peoples of the world? Why does he even need to tell people what to believe in? Shouldn't it be self evident? If God and Jesus were so omniscient, why could they not reach all peoples of the earth? I believe the bible is tribal lore.

While parts of the bible are good standards for how to conduct life and interact with other people, there are plenty of other religions/doctrines that expound similar views...

[Ponce]

Skid? don't think of the Jews of yesterday with the "Jews" of today for only a very few of them are the real ones.............as far as I am concern they were a tribe that were contacted by a ET who gave them the job of spreading the word as to who and what he was, but of course over time it became a religion.

[Ares]

The Bible was indeed created by God, for man.




I can't agree with that one, the bible was actually created under the order of Constantine in Nicea. A lot of books and gospels were not admitted into the bible. The book of Enoch is one such book that didn't make it.

There were other scriptures that also didn't get put in the bible. If it was created by god, all his wisdom would be in it. That is not the case. The King James version has only been around since the 1620's. The bible was written by man, for man. The Catholic church used fear to indoctrinate it's "subjects" to do as they were told or go to hell for not obeying their preacher.

Most people at that time couldn't read so went on the infallible word of their preacher. Don't even get me started on the Spanish inquisition which was nothing more than religion mixed with politics.

As with anything written by man, corruption, power, and greed supersede the common good of the men and woman they were supposedly guiding to the way of the lord.

[StreetsOfGold]

I've always wondered where god goes when the universe goes supernova.

Not even an issue for God or those he has preserved. Personally, I'll have my glorified body by this time and it would be a wonderful sight to see.

Jeremiah 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

[bellevuebully]

Unless you have proof the dilemma is entirely yours as well.


There are a lot of dilemma's for which there is proof that show us that what we think and perceive is quite beyond our comprehension. Here is one that I recently came across. Give it some thought. It makes you think about what you think you know...


I assume you have a basic understanding of the basic building block of matter....an atom, which is made up of a nucleus (protons and neutrons) and electrons.

The mass or actual solid stuff in an atom is the nucleus. Although the electrons have some mass, it is highly negligable.

If you picture a drawing of an atom with the nucleus and electrons around it, realize that there is a ratio between the 'solid' part of an atom and the 'non solid' part of an atom. Linearly, this ratio is about 105. In area, this ratio is 1010. In the real world, volumetrically this ratio is 1015.

This means that in every atom there is 10 000 000 000 000 000 times more non-matter (no mass) than there is matter (mass). For persective that ratio is roughly equivelent to 1 second : 30 million years.

So in actuality, solid objects have one solid component to one quadrillion non-solid components.

I'd say that's a bit of a dilemma. ;D

[bellevuebully]

If it was created by god, all his wisdom would be in it.

Respectfully Ares, says who?

[sirgonzo420]

The Bible was indeed created by God, for man.




God is Creator of all.

God permits the "Satanic Bible" to exist too.

[Ares]

If it was created by god, all his wisdom would be in it.

Respectfully Ares, says who?


Because the logical answer (in my opinion of course) would be that if you were going to give your creation rules to live by and pass on your wisdom that you would include it in one book. Not scattered all over the region left to your creation to figure out which ones it wants in the book and what ones it wants to exclude.

[bellevuebully]

If it was created by god, all his wisdom would be in it.

Respectfully Ares, says who?


Because the logical answer (in my opinion of course) would be that if you were going to give your creation rules to live by and pass on your wisdom that you would include it in one book. Not scattered all over the region left to your creation to figure out which ones it wants in the book and what ones it wants to exclude.



You are assuming it is supposed to be like an advertisment.

Maybe it's more like an owners manual.

[Ares]

If it was created by god, all his wisdom would be in it.

Respectfully Ares, says who?


Because the logical answer (in my opinion of course) would be that if you were going to give your creation rules to live by and pass on your wisdom that you would include it in one book. Not scattered all over the region left to your creation to figure out which ones it wants in the book and what ones it wants to exclude.



You are assuming it is supposed to be like an advertisment.

Maybe it's more like an owners manual.


Even if it's design was to be like an owners manual it still leaves it questionable considering how it was compiled. They include some books, while excluding others. It's like they (MAN) chose what it is that YOU'RE supposed to read and abide by. That doesn't sit to well with me.

[Bullion_Bob]

Most people at that time couldn't read so went on the infallible word of their preacher.



I think this is very key, and often overlooked. Even up to the middle ages we see the majority of people living slightly above stone age scratching out the simplest of lives, oblivious to those who tell them what to do, for fear of imprisonment, or death. It was a very different world of today. Hey....you have a head ache?...here let me drill a hole in your head, and bleed you out.

Go back 1000 years, and people thought all kinds of gods lived in the skies up until someone built a telescope and looked around up there, and... well that whole situation went out the window. Many gods died that day. People lived and died believing all kinds of gods lived in the sky because they were told they were there....so much that their entire lives revolved around it. People still believe in horoscopes today like it's real. Maybe it's become genetic? :conf:

[sirgonzo420]

Anybody who doubts the existence of "that which men have called God", or what Ponce calls "the Force" could eat about 5 grams or so of these to have their mind changed:



http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/images/archive/psilocybe_cubensis22.jpg

[Neuro]

Anybody who doubts the existence of "that which men have called God", or what Ponce calls "the Force" could eat about 5 grams or so of these to have their mind changed:



http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/images/archive/psilocybe_cubensis22.jpg
Holy SHIT!

[Bullion_Bob]

Unless you have proof the dilemma is entirely yours as well.


There are a lot of dilemma's for which there is proof that show us that what we think and perceive is quite beyond our comprehension. Here is one that I recently came across. Give it some thought. It makes you think about what you think you know...


I assume you have a basic understanding of the basic building block of matter....an atom, which is made up of a nucleus (protons and neutrons) and electrons.

The mass or actual solid stuff in an atom is the nucleus. Although the electrons have some mass, it is highly negligable.

If you picture a drawing of an atom with the nucleus and electrons around it, realize that there is a ratio between the 'solid' part of an atom and the 'non solid' part of an atom. Linearly, this ratio is about 105. In area, this ratio is 1010. In the real world, volumetrically this ratio is 1015.

This means that in every atom there is 10 000 000 000 000 000 times more non-matter (no mass) than there is matter (mass). For persective that ratio is roughly equivelent to 1 second : 30 million years.

So in actuality, solid objects have one solid component to one quadrillion non-solid components.

I'd say that's a bit of a dilemma. ;D





Surely that's the case. My take on that you can divide something in half infinitely and still be left with something as there is no such condition as nothing. I don't subscribe to plancks constant as an absolute. In the same regard I also think there are infinite universes on the tip of your finger in magnitude that can be explored forever i.e. infinity. Infinite small, infinite big.

The fact that space exists inbetween them is very much like outer space as we know it. I see it as a repeating pattern that goes on forever. Every particle of matter defines it's own presence through gravity, and magnetic fields and how it/they effects everything else around them to create this space. The space itself is the balance of all the matter within that space, when an inbalance occurs things collide to become new particles, gaps in space open or close to accommodate this, and the process continues.

Something along this line are the "powers of 10" illustrations on the net. At some point 10 exp-12 or -13 outer space to the visible eye almost exactly resembles a carbon atom. I do not think this is coincidence. It's like viewing/watching mandelbrot sets execute mathematical patterns in graphical representation.

To me the fact that such magnitudes exist makes this reality both nothing and everything at the same time, it's all relative to the observer. On earth this is everything to everyone. From outer space we are nothing but an insignificant speck. To organisms living inside us we are gigantic universes relative to them.

[Ares]

Anybody who doubts the existence of "that which men have called God", or what Ponce calls "the Force" could eat about 5 grams or so of these to have their mind changed:



http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/images/archive/psilocybe_cubensis22.jpg


No doubting here, I know within my heart of hearts that the Creator exist. I have never felt that I was my body, but that my body was just an extension of this existence.

[bellevuebully]

If it was created by god, all his wisdom would be in it.

Respectfully Ares, says who?


Because the logical answer (in my opinion of course) would be that if you were going to give your creation rules to live by and pass on your wisdom that you would include it in one book. Not scattered all over the region left to your creation to figure out which ones it wants in the book and what ones it wants to exclude.





You are assuming it is supposed to be like an advertisment.

Maybe it's more like an owners manual.


Even if it's design was to be like an owners manual it still leaves it questionable considering how it was compiled. They include some books, while excluding others. It's like they (MAN) chose what it is that YOU'RE supposed to read and abide by. That doesn't sit to well with me.


Ares, I'm sorry I kind of misread your last response.

Referring to what you wrote, let me respond more suitably...

I can understand some of your concerns. But let me ask you to contemplate something objectively: Being skeptical, would you be more or less skeptical of a book that claimed to have divine inspiration had it all been compiled under one place, time, origin than had it been compiled over a great length of time, places and origin while maintaining not only thematic composure, but also congruency of detail?

Making a basic assumption that man was chosen to be used in some capacity as a vehicle to compose and compile a work of divine authorship, does not the diversity of it's origins speak curiousity into it's true authorship.

66 books, composed by 40-some authors, several thousand years, diverse geographical location......yet theme and scope of detail extremely congruent when analyzed contextually. To me, that is one of the things that shows the signature of divine authorship, not man-made authorship.

Just out of curiousity, and obviously you don't have to answer, but how much serious investigation and reading have you done regarding the scriptures to form your conclusion? Personally, i think the amount of prophetic ties in ot/nt are too great to discount when really examined. Maybe you have investigated this and just can't buy into it, but I suspect many people form hard and fast opinions on these matters without having ever opened the bible or a related commentary on the subject. Not to say you haven't, I was just curious.

[sirgonzo420]

Surely that's the case. My take on that you can divide something in half infinitely and still be left with something as there is no such condition as nothing. I don't subscribe to plancks constant as an absolute. In the same regard I also think there are infinite universes on the tip of your finger in magnitude that can be explored forever i.e. infinity. Infinite small, infinite big.

The fact that space exists inbetween them is very much like outer space as we know it. I see it as a repeating pattern that goes on forever. Every particle of matter defines it's own presence through gravity, and magnetic fields and how it/they effects everything else around them to create this space. The space itself is the balance of all the matter within that space, when an inbalance occurs things collide to become new particles, gaps in space open or close to accommodate this, and the process continues.

Something along this line are the "powers of 10" illustrations on the net. At some point 10 exp-12 or -13 outer space to the visible eye almost exactly resembles a carbon atom. I do not think this is coincidence. It's like viewing/watching mandelbrot sets execute mathematical patterns in graphical representation.

To me the fact that such magnitudes exist makes this reality both nothing and everything at the same time, it's all relative to the observer. On earth this is everything to everyone. From outer space we are nothing but an insignificant speck. To organisms living inside us we are gigantic universes relative to them.




Yep.



We live in an infinitely fractal universe, which is a single thought in the mind of God.

[lapis]

Just out of curiousity, and obviously you don't have to answer, but how much serious investigation and reading have you done regarding the scriptures to form your conclusion?

I took a "Myths of the Bible"-type class at a community college one summer and it pretty much put the last nail in the Christianity coffin for me (I was raised a Baptist).

However, I still believe in a Creator.

[bellevuebully]

Something along this line are the "powers of 10" illustrations on the net. At some point 10 exp-12 or -13 outer space to the visible eye almost exactly resembles a carbon atom. I do not think this is coincidence. It's like viewing/watching mandelbrot sets execute mathematical patterns in graphical representation.

To me the fact that such magnitudes exist makes this reality both nothing and everything at the same time, it's all relative to the observer. On earth this is everything to everyone. From outer space we are nothing but an insignificant speck. To organisms living inside us we are gigantic universes relative to them.



An interesting question that arises out of this is, is this pattern that repeats on the micro and macro levels a pattern of random coincidence, or a pattern of intentional design?

[bellevuebully]

Just out of curiousity, and obviously you don't have to answer, but how much serious investigation and reading have you done regarding the scriptures to form your conclusion?

I took a "Myths of the Bible"-type class at a community college one summer and it pretty much put the last nail in the Christianity coffin for me (I was raised a Baptist).

However, I still believe in a Creator.


It sounds like you achieved your objective.

[ximmy]

Deuteronomy is OT jewish, mosaic law, not valid for xians either... hebrews has some merit.

Who told you that????

It is a lie. The same WORD of the OT is in the NT. Oooops... lying is in the OT too. So that does not apply either?


The entire epistles of Paul tell me ... from beginning to end... You work it out... good god...

You really don't understand the gospel do you...

OMG... you just quoted the torah (law) of the jews and are trying to make if valid for all people.

"whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5: 4).


For the redeemed, the Old Testament has NOTHING to do with being justified!!!!

How do you think the new testament is understood without the old? There is NO place in the New Testament that says the old is not valid for study and understanding. Further, how do you figure the 10 commandments are no longer valid?

The old testament is not from the jews. The jews are the tribe of Judah- one of the original 12 tribes.

Show me where in any of the new testament that it says now believers should go about sinning and violating the laws of the torah!!! SHOW ME!!!

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

And how do we know what is wicked or what is evil?


For Spectrism,

The law (torah including the ten commandments are a curse)

"For as many as are of the works of the law (torah) are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." (Gal. 3:10-13)

They are a curse because nobody can follow them (the yoke, the curse) :
"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses (torah).”
...Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:5-10)

Jesus disarmed the curse:

"He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code (torah), with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." (Col. 2:15)

And how do we know what is wicked or what is evil?
Now we are under grace & have the Holy Spirit to guide us so we don't need the law.

"As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him." (1 John 2:27)

~ximmy

[sirgonzo420]

Something along this line are the "powers of 10" illustrations on the net. At some point 10 exp-12 or -13 outer space to the visible eye almost exactly resembles a carbon atom. I do not think this is coincidence. It's like viewing/watching mandelbrot sets execute mathematical patterns in graphical representation.

To me the fact that such magnitudes exist makes this reality both nothing and everything at the same time, it's all relative to the observer. On earth this is everything to everyone. From outer space we are nothing but an insignificant speck. To organisms living inside us we are gigantic universes relative to them.



An interesting question that arises out of this is, is this pattern that repeats on the micro and macro levels a pattern of random coincidence, or a pattern of intentional design?


Either way, it's fascinating.

God abides regardless. He is the Law by which all things operate.

"random coincidence" and "intentional design" are both misnomers, IMO.

There are no "coincidences"... just causes and effects.

God is the sustained, ineffable cause.

[Awoke]

The Bible was indeed created by God, for man.




I can't agree with that one, the bible was actually created under the order of Constantine in Nicea. A lot of books and gospels were not admitted into the bible. The book of Enoch is one such book that didn't make it.



Again, the Bible is a creation of God, in which he used humans a vessels to scribe his word.
That does not mean that every piece of papyrus that had script written on it is divinely inspired and Holy and the Word of the Lord. That is the purpose of the compilation of book known as the bible. To weed out the scripture from the script.

The books are all intrinsically tied together, and for the most part, none of the authors knew each other or for that matter even met each other before.
The authorship spans thousands of years, and a Bellevue Bully pointed out, contains 60-some-odd books written by 40-some-odd authors, all containing the same message, the same theme, the same moral fiber, the same divine inspiration.

This is not the work of man.



66 books, composed by 40-some authors, several thousand years, diverse geographical location......yet theme and scope of detail extremely congruent when analyzed contextually. To me, that is one of the things that shows the signature of divine authorship, not man-made authorship.


There is coding that only SirGonzo and others who can read Hebrew can fully appreciate, but Chuck Missler does a good job of showing us the tip of the iceberg in this video here:

Start at 13:00 minutes, watch to 16:00

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-695844267248116741


If that catches your interest, watch the whole presentation, part one and two.
(Chuck Missler Kabbalah in google video search)

[Ares]

I can understand some of your concerns. But let me ask you to contemplate something objectively: Being skeptical, would you be more or less skeptical of a book that claimed to have divine inspiration had it all been compiled under one place, time, origin than had it been compiled over a great length of time, places and origin while maintaining not only thematic composure, but also congruency of detail?

I would be more skeptical of a book that describes to be divinely inspired by numerous individuals over a period of hundreds if not thousands of years. The Book of Genesis can be traced back to the Ancient Sumerians who believe they were created by the Annunaki. Also the Book of Enoch also has it's roots in Ancient Sumeria. Clay tablets have been found recanting the same story found in Genesis and Enoch. The Gospel of Thomas also found somewhat recently (1940's I believe) claiming that you do not need a church to worship the father, but again it gets buried. That speaks divinity as why do you need an institution between you and the Creator?


Making a basic assumption that man was chosen to be used in some capacity as a vehicle to compose and compile a work of divine authorship, does not the diversity of it's origins speak curiousity into it's true authorship.

Even under a basic assumption about human capacity to compose and compile work. After man was kicked out of the Garden of Eden why would the creator trust man to write down his word without injecting bias? Man after all had a reason to be bias after failing to uphold and live by the simple rule of not eating from the tree of knowledge. Not to mention that even that story doesn't hold water. Human beings do not handle "incest" too well and deformities usually arise within a single generation. Not to mention the many different races, I don't care how far from the equator a black man moves away from, he isn't going to breed himself into a white man, or an Asian, or a Indian


66 books, composed by 40-some authors, several thousand years, diverse geographical location......yet theme and scope of detail extremely congruent when analyzed contextually. To me, that is one of the things that shows the signature of divine authorship, not man-made authorship.

That is impressive, I am definitely not saying that all those works were not divinely inspired but I am skeptical of anyone who claims to speak for the Creator when he can clearly speak for himself.


Just out of curiousity, and obviously you don't have to answer, but how much serious investigation and reading have you done regarding the scriptures to form your conclusion? Personally, i think the amount of prophetic ties in ot/nt are too great to discount when really examined. Maybe you have investigated this and just can't buy into it, but I suspect many people form hard and fast opinions on these matters without having ever opened the bible or a related commentary on the subject. Not to say you haven't, I was just curious.

I was raised to question everything, even to a fault I guess. I have read the Bible, the Qur'an, and the Torrah and still come away with more questions than answers. All the works listed above still have contradictions, which tells me it was written by man and not by the Creator. An all knowing, all powerful being would not contradict himself from one chapter to the next. The Book of Job is just one glaring contradiction after another. Nevermind the fact that Satan tried to overthrow the Creator, now they are sitting around taking bets on how Job handles his particular situation.

[sirgonzo420]

The story of Job is just one glaring contradiction after another. Nevermind the fact that Satan tried to overthrow the Creator, now they are sitting around taking bets on how Job handles his particular situation.



This is one of many reasons why I don't subscribe to the God-is-a-big-man-in-the-sky-Bible-character.

Shouldn't "God" have known the result of the bet from before Creation?

[bellevuebully]

The Gospel of Thomas also found somewhat recently (1940's I believe) claiming that you do not need a church to worship the father, but again it gets buried.

I only want to make a quick comment about what you wrote. All of the rest is your formed opinion which I respect and don't see a need to try to convince you otherwise.

But as to the above, why would we need the gospel of Thomas to point that out or, 'correct it' as you imply? Where does the NT imply or claim that you need an institution to worship the Father?

[Ares]

I only want to make a quick comment about what you wrote. All of the rest is your formed opinion which I respect and don't see a need to try to convince you otherwise.

But as to the above, why would we need the gospel of Thomas to point that out or, 'correct it' as you imply? Where does the NT imply or claim that you need an institution to worship the Father?


I am the light that shines over all things. I am everything. From me all came forth, and to me all return. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there. -Gospel of Thomas

[bellevuebully]

I am the light that shines over all things. I am everything. From me all came forth, and to me all return. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there. -Gospel of Thomas


I am familiar with that quote from the g of T, but as to my question, why would the g of T need to correct the NT on something it never claimed or even implied?

[Awoke]

The Gospel of Thomas leans heavily towards occult paganism and earth worship, and that is why it is not considered inspired by God.

As I said, just because it has been written down does not mean it was divinely inspired. If it opposses the cohesive message of the Gospels, it is obviously not a message from God.


Jesus said: For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

[sirgonzo420]

I am the light that shines over all things. I am everything. From me all came forth, and to me all return. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there. -Gospel of Thomas


I am familiar with that quote from the g of T, but as to my question, why would the g of T need to correct the NT on something it never claimed or even implied?


I think Ares' point is: why was the Gospel of Thomas excluded?


The Church always liked having a monopoly on religion... which is why they used latin for so long and dug up and burned Wycliff's bones for translating the Bible into english.

[Ares]

I am the light that shines over all things. I am everything. From me all came forth, and to me all return. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there. -Gospel of Thomas


I am familiar with that quote from the g of T, but as to my question, why would the g of T need to correct the NT on something it never claimed or even implied?


I read it to mean that you do not need an institution between you and the Creator, as he is every where. I'm not about banning church, far from it. But I would like the church to acknowledge that it isn't needed to get in touch with the Creator. You are a spark of the Creator are you not?

[Horn]

Jesus said: For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


This also sounds vaguely & pagan. Maybe it was just bad translation from yiddish?

[sirgonzo420]

Jesus said: For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.


This also sounds vaguely & pagan. Maybe it was just bad translation from yiddish?


Yahshuah said two or three, but the jews today (pharisees of Yahshuah's time) require 10 jewish men to form a minyan!

[Horn]

Yahshuah said two or three, but the jews today (pharisees of Yahshuah's time) require 10 jewish men to form a minyan!


Who's gonna bake the matza?

[Buddha]

Yahshuah said two or three, but the jews today (pharisees of Yahshuah's time) require 10 jewish men to form a minyan!


Who's gonna bake the matza?



Who do you think?

http://carlebachseder.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/randy-savage-matza-man.jpg?w=320

[Spectrism]

Awoke? I would like him to sign my Bible for me......where should I go to?

PS: Send me the article where he says that he created the Bible for man.


You have that backwards Ponce. He writes your name into the book of life when you are part of His family.... and He writes on you a seal of salvation & protection.


Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.


And He writes His word on our hearts...
2Co 3:2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

[bellevuebully]

I am the light that shines over all things. I am everything. From me all came forth, and to me all return. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there. -Gospel of Thomas


I am familiar with that quote from the g of T, but as to my question, why would the g of T need to correct the NT on something it never claimed or even implied?


I read it to mean that you do not need an institution between you and the Creator, as he is every where. I'm not about banning church, far from it. But I would like the church to acknowledge that it isn't needed to get in touch with the Creator. You are a spark of the Creator are you not?


Not to beat a dead horse, but in your post several above where you brought up the g of T, you wrote....

The Gospel of Thomas also found somewhat recently (1940's I believe) claiming that you do not need a church to worship the father, but again it gets buried

By implied reasoning you are saying the g of T got buried because it refutes something claimed in the current format of the NT as a means to justify that the g of T validates itself by doing so.

My question is where in the current format of the NT does it say that? My contention is that it does not say that, so how does it relate to the burying of the g of T?

Maybe (and I think I am) doing a poor job of expressing myself. Maybe someone who understands what I am trying to get at can help me out.

[Bullion_Bob]

I don't think god is a recognizable person or being. God is an ideology, or an energy pattern if you will, that man has tried throughout the ages to identify with to the point they paint pictures, write books, and tell stories about it in a vain attempt to understand it.

[Ares]

I believe the Catholic Church branded the Gospel of Thomas as heresy. So maybe buried wasn't the right word. But outright denied is better terminology.

It goes with what SirGonzo said. If the Gospel of Thomas was taken literal, it would mean that the church would lose it's monopoly. There's big money to be made in church. I've seen it in a number of churches just in my little neck of the woods. Not to mention the Billy Grahams of the world cashing in.

When you do not need to support any organization to be in touch with the Creator. I see it as wasted money, and effort. Again that's just my opinion that I've come to on my own. I in no way would condemn anyone for attending a church as I am also about freedom of choice. It is your choice to attend or not to attend. I just have an issue with the church or even religious groups getting together to legislate morality. Prohibition anyone?

[bellevuebully]

I believe the Catholic Church branded the Gospel of Thomas as heresy. So maybe buried wasn't the right word. But outright denied is better terminology.

It goes with what SirGonzo said. If the Gospel of Thomas was taken literal, it would mean that the church would lose it's monopoly. There's big money to be made in church. I've seen it in a number of churches just in my little neck of the woods. Not to mention the Billy Grahams of the world cashing in.

When you do not need to support any organization to be in touch with the Creator. I see it as wasted money, and effort. Again that's just my opinion that I've come to on my own. I in no way would condemn anyone for attending a church as I am also about freedom of choice. It is your choice to attend or not to attend. I just have an issue with the church or even religious groups getting together to legislate morality. Prohibition anyone?


I'll try a different approach.

Where does the NT claim an institutional organization, such at the Vatican, etc, is a required prereq for communion with God? I could care less about what the Vatican has to say about it.

[bellevuebully]

Again in other words, if the source document of the faith being practiced says one thing, and an institution which identifies with it says something contrary, which is right? Not a trick question. The document of course. The institutional opinion has been invalidated.

[Horn]

Its nothing more than a good sales strategy, forgive them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTg7NcucINc&feature=related

[Ares]

I'll try a different approach.

Where does the NT claim an institutional organization, such at the Vatican, etc, is a required prereq for communion with God? I could care less about what the Vatican has to say about it.

Ok that makes more sense. Sorry I wasn't getting it. :)

I have come to understand that the church appoints itself as a divinely institute of universal salvation. I've never seen it stated anywhere in the Old or New Testament about church being required to attend.

I took the churches reaction to the Gospel of Thomas as a threat to their monopoly.

[bellevuebully]

I'll try a different approach.

Where does the NT claim an institutional organization, such at the Vatican, etc, is a required prereq for communion with God? I could care less about what the Vatican has to say about it.

Ok that makes more sense. Sorry I wasn't getting it. :)

I have come to understand that the church appoints itself as a divinely institute of universal salvation. I've never seen it stated anywhere in the Old or New Testament about church being required to attend.

I took the churches reaction to the Gospel of Thomas as a threat to their monopoly.


Thanks....sorry, like I said, I didn't want to beat a dead horse, but I thought this worthwhile in following through on.

I think if people could sort through and differentiate what the bible says and what man says on behalf of the bible, there would be a lot less confusion about the claims made in scripture. No different from what was evidenced by Jesus' rebuking of the Pharisees for making faith in God something it was not and in doing so, leading people into a lie.

Thanks for perservering with me. I know I was bordering on annoying. Ok, I might have crossed the border. ;D

[Spectrism]

Deuteronomy is OT jewish, mosaic law, not valid for xians either... hebrews has some merit.

Who told you that????

It is a lie. The same WORD of the OT is in the NT. Oooops... lying is in the OT too. So that does not apply either?


The entire epistles of Paul tell me ... from beginning to end... You work it out... good god...

You really don't understand the gospel do you...

OMG... you just quoted the torah (law) of the jews and are trying to make if valid for all people.

"whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Gal. 5: 4).


For the redeemed, the Old Testament has NOTHING to do with being justified!!!!

How do you think the new testament is understood without the old? There is NO place in the New Testament that says the old is not valid for study and understanding. Further, how do you figure the 10 commandments are no longer valid?

The old testament is not from the jews. The jews are the tribe of Judah- one of the original 12 tribes.

Show me where in any of the new testament that it says now believers should go about sinning and violating the laws of the torah!!! SHOW ME!!!

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
1Co 5:2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Co 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

And how do we know what is wicked or what is evil?


For Spectrism,

The law (torah including the ten commandments are a curse)
"For as many as are of the works of the law (torah) are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." (Gal. 3:10-13)

They are a curse because nobody can follow them (the yoke, the curse) :"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses (torah).”
...Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:5-10)

Jesus disarmed the curse:
"He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code (torah), with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." (Col. 2:15)

And how do we know what is wicked or what is evil?
Now we are under grace & have the Holy Spirit to guide us so we don't need the law.

"As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him." (1 John 2:27)

~ximmy


I changed some items above to RED because they must be your words. Those are not part of the bible and they contradict what the bible says.

The LAW is the requirement of perfection before a perfect and holy God. Mankind entirely is born into sin since Adam & Eve and the LAW was given for three reasons that I can discern.
1. It showed the relationship between man & God and what was required.
2. It showed how mankind can get along with fellow man.
3. It showed that we needed a Messiah.

To call this a curse is like calling lines in a two-way high speed road a hazzard. Who told you the law is a curse? I really want to know.

Where have you been getting your teaching of things in the bible. Please forgive my abruptness, but somebody really messed you up bad. Your interpretation of your given verses is far from the truth. One at a time-



The law (torah including the ten commandments are a curse)
"For as many as are of the works of the law (torah) are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree." (Gal. 3:10-13)

It is not the law that is the curse, but the sin. True, that if there was no law, there would be no sin. But that is like saying- if there were no beautiful women, there would be no ugly ones. Or, if there were no sun, we wouldn't have any overcast days. You see, the law acts as a mirror so that we can look at ourselves and see every blemish, every mean streak, every failing that we already have and do. The law is the word of God and is only seen as a curse to those who hate God.

Your verse above talks about the cursed one hanging on the tree. It describes one going to the grave with the consequences of sin. That consequence is eternal separation from God. The Messiah was the only one who could take our position in being cursed with our sin... and yet HE being true, pure and holy in every way was a perfect sacrifice to pay our debts and be resurrected. The Messiah fulfilled the law and lived completely sinless. No other could do this. He lived pure works...we cannot. We can only receive His sacrifice on our behalf by faith in HIM. That is what is meant that we must not think we do good works. Our works are filthy. We have ONLY faith.



They are a curse because nobody can follow them (the yoke, the curse) :"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses (torah).”
...Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear?" (Acts 15:5-10)

True observance but incorrect conclusion. The Pharisees here were trying to get the "gentile" believers to follow CEREMONIAL law. The circumcision was a SIGN of being "clean" whereby the flesh was cut from men as sin must be cut from our lives. The law and works of the old testament times were physical pictures of the spiritual world. In the quote above, we see the correction spoken against the Pharisees who failed to see the reality of the spirit and prided themselves on placing physical burdens upon others. They were the dirty cops of the time. Some of the laws were fulfilled and completed.... the ceremonial laws & sacrificial (blood) offerings. These were finished with the perfect sacrifice- the Lamb of God- which they foreshadowed. Prophecy speeks of things to come. Once the future has arrived, the prophecy ceases to exist.




Jesus disarmed the curse:
"He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code (torah), with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross." (Col. 2:15)

Let's look at a literal translation of this:
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in the deviations and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all the deviations,
Col 2:14 blotting out the handwriting in the ordinances against us, which was contrary to us, even He has taken it out of the midst, nailing it to the cross;
Col 2:15 having stripped the rulers and the authorities, He made a show of them in public, triumphing over them in it.

There is a subtle variance in the meanings. BTW- what is the translation you are using? In yours, the message is that the law is destroyed. In the literal, the message is that the infraction against the law- the citation of violation is nailed to the cross. Some of these are truly finished in His sacrifice as there is an end to further blood offerings. But since not all are saved by His blood the law still rules over unbelievers.


Now Ximmy... tell me about YOUR position in this. Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb? What is your story?

[ximmy]

Spectrism, it is apparent we have nothing further to discuss... have a nice day. ;)
ximmy

[Spectrism]

Spectrism, it is apparent we have nothing further to discuss... have a nice day. ;)
ximmy


Hmmmm... my spidey sense tells me many things. You have a nice day too dear.

[Horn]

Whew. :-[

For a second I thought Stephen Hawking was going to be covered in lambs blood.

[Ares]

Thanks for perservering with me. I know I was bordering on annoying. Ok, I might have crossed the border.

No problem at all, always love having a good level headed debate. :)

[D sciple]

Also in regard to the law, consider the last chapter of the Old Testament. Especially 4:4

Malichi ch 4

1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

4“Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.

5“Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. 6“He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”

[Spectrism]

Also in regard to the law, consider the last chapter of the Old Testament. Especially 4:4

Malichi ch 4

1“For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” 2“But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3“You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

4“Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel.

5“Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD. 6“He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”



We see the prophecies of old being fulfilled in the first century church.... but there are more we have to look forward to. Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, etc.... how rich we are to have the words from the past which are as current as the future. To read the Psalms and feel the heart of God. To read about failures and successes of the generations of old. And to read the immutable promises of the only one who is able and willing to keep every one of his promises.

[Ponce]

To me the Bible is like the story of one million monkeys playing around each with a typewriter.......one of those days they will write a play.............many times, over time, something ir another in the Bible became true........to me the Bible is more like a history book where man infiltrated many things either not related or put in as they saw it and not as it really occurred............also, many things in the Bible were put in by the Jews to concurred with what they wanted the world to believe that they were.

The Bible was started 87 years after Jesus died so that most of it came second or third hand and it took (not sure) about 400 years for the (almost) final production to come out.........and changed a few times.

[Spectrism]

To me the Bible is like the story of one million monkeys playing around each with a typewriter.......one of those days they will write a play.............many times, over time, something ir another in the Bible became true........to me the Bible is more like a history book where man infiltrated many things either not related or put in as they saw it and not as it really occurred............also, many things in the Bible were put in by the Jews to concurred with what they wanted the world to believe that they were.

The Bible was started 87 years after Jesus died so that most of it came second or third hand and it took (not sure) about 400 years for the (almost) final production to come out.........and changed a few times.


I think you better check on your "facts".

The words of the bible are foolish to you, right?

1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

[Horn]

ho·li·er-than-thou
adj.

Exhibiting an attitude of superior virtue; self-righteously pious.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/holier-than-thou

[Bullion_Bob]

;D

[bellevuebully]

also, many things in the Bible were put in by the Jews to concurred with what they wanted the world to believe that they were

Yes.

They wrote a book describing their relationship with God, where they were proven over and over to be obstinant, disobedient, slow learners who because of this, were subject to chastisement and placed into humiliating captivity.

Then, when the Messiah they created arrived, they failed to recognize his appearance. This worked out quite well for them because their city was razed and their main temple of worship was destroyed. That was some good planning. Not to mention the awesome benefit of being driven out to live as refugees for another 2000 years.

The bonus was that as Christianity grew, most of the world viewed them as being the main tool who killed the Son of God. That earned them some well-planned brownie points.

Then they got some free land in the most arid, rocky and war-torn land in the middle east in the middle of about 10 countries that hate them more than all the other countries combined. Awesome! More really good planning. And it was all worth the 2000 years of living abroad.

Yes, those clever, clever, bible-writing jews.

[Awoke]

Hahaha, well put, Bellevue! I love the sarcasm. It's not often you post in that style, but you really do it justice when you do!

[sirgonzo420]

also, many things in the Bible were put in by the Jews to concurred with what they wanted the world to believe that they were

Yes.

They wrote a book describing their relationship with God, where they were proven over and over to be obstinant, disobedient, slow learners who because of this, were subject to chastisement and placed into humiliating captivity.

Then, when the Messiah they created arrived, they failed to recognize his appearance. This worked out quite well for them because their city was razed and their main temple of worship was destroyed. That was some good planning. Not to mention the awesome benefit of being driven out to live as refugees for another 2000 years.

The bonus was that as Christianity grew, most of the world viewed them as being the main tool who killed the Son of God. That earned them some well-planned brownie points.

Then they got some free land in the most arid, rocky and war-torn land in the middle east in the middle of about 10 countries that hate them more than all the other countries combined. Awesome! More really good planning. And it was all worth the 2000 years of living abroad.

Yes, those clever, clever, bible-writing jews.




You forgot about them subverting the world's banks, media, and governments.

The tribe occupying palestine is not hebrew. They don't even call themselves "israelites", but instead "israelis".

Remember Revelation 2:9 and 3:9?

[Horn]

Remember Revelation 2:9 and 3:9?


I was remembering this thread awhile back;

http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/christians-are-jew-whores/

[bellevuebully]

You forgot about them subverting the world's banks, media, and governments.

The tribe occupying palestine is not hebrew. They don't even call themselves "israelites", but instead "israelis".

Remember Revelation 2:9 and 3:9?


I don't really care who calls themselves what.

God knows who are His.

The conjecture that the bible was written by a people to subjugate the rest of the world is absurd and fantastic.

Maybe you missed the point. Maybe not.

[Awoke]

You forgot about them subverting the world's banks, media, and governments.

The tribe occupying palestine is not hebrew. They don't even call themselves "israelites", but instead "israelis".

Remember Revelation 2:9 and 3:9?


I don't really care who calls themselves what.

God knows who are His.

The conjecture that the bible was written by a people to subjugate the rest of the world is absurd and fantastic.

Maybe you missed the point. Maybe not.


I don't think so. IMO, he nailed it.

This is why I no longer run around jew-bashing. Because the ones who are claiming to be jews are babylonian talmudists, and are not the ones the Lord God made his covenant with.

I call a spade a spade, and a babylonian talmudist is a babylonian talmudist.

[sirgonzo420]

You forgot about them subverting the world's banks, media, and governments.

The tribe occupying palestine is not hebrew. They don't even call themselves "israelites", but instead "israelis".

Remember Revelation 2:9 and 3:9?


I don't really care who calls themselves what.

God knows who are His.

The conjecture that the bible was written by a people to subjugate the rest of the world is absurd and fantastic.

Maybe you missed the point. Maybe not.


No, your point was not lost on me; I was just pointing out that the "jews" of today are not the same as the jews of biblical times.

And the only way (according to the Bible) to the Father is through the Son, right?

So all non-believers are damned to Hell, correct?

The non-believers (in Christ) include those who call themselves "jews".

God's "chosen people" are no longer the hebrews (now gone), but those who believe in Christ. If you don't believe in Christ, "jew" or not, you belong in Hell, according to the Bible.

[bellevuebully]

You forgot about them subverting the world's banks, media, and governments.

The tribe occupying palestine is not hebrew. They don't even call themselves "israelites", but instead "israelis".

Remember Revelation 2:9 and 3:9?


I don't really care who calls themselves what.

God knows who are His.

The conjecture that the bible was written by a people to subjugate the rest of the world is absurd and fantastic.

Maybe you missed the point. Maybe not.


I don't think so. IMO, he nailed it.

This is why I no longer run around jew-bashing. Because the ones who are claiming to be jews are babylonian talmudists, and are not the ones the Lord God made his covenant with.

I call a spade a spade, and a babylonian talmudist is a babylonian talmudist.


How did babylonian talmudists get involved with this? I said the conjecture that the bible was written by a people to subjegate the world is laughable.

[Awoke]

Oh I agree. The bible was written by God, through men. Of that I have no doubts and would never argue.

I'm not talking about the bible or the jews. I'm onto a different subject. The reason I posted what I posted about the Babylonian talmudists is because people are confusing the babylonian talmudists for jews, when they are not.

[Bullion_Bob]

If heaven is real, why not end all this to join the party early up there?

It can't be a sin...all you wanted to do was get closer to god.

[bellevuebully]

Oh I agree. The bible was written by God, through men. Of that I have no doubts and would never argue.

I'm not talking about the bible or the jews. I'm onto a different subject. The reason I posted what I posted about the Babylonian talmudists is because people are confusing the babylonian talmudists for jews, when they are not.


I think that when people hear the word "jew" their thoughts get pigeon-holed. Nationalistic Israel was a major component in the ot and it's pretty clear that it has a lot to do with end time events. For those who live there (or elsewhere for that matter) and what they call themselves is not my concern. There are a lot of people who call themselves Christian who are not. It's clear there's a remnant of biblical Israel who God is yet to deal with and I will leave that to him. It's also clear that (contrary to what SG420 wrote above), the seed of Abraham has not disappeared. I won't debate that. Romans 11 spells it out. Being hung up on the word 'jew', imo, just clouds one's thinking.

As a side comment...why would anyone expect anything better from Israel anyways? They haven't received Christ any more than any other nation. Niether have the people who reside there. They are lost in transgression, living in a false hope, like most of the rest of the world. It can only be expected that they will conduct themselves sinfully.
It makes it all the more curious as to why so many people who have nothing to do with Israel continue to focus on them. If the answer to that is central banking et al, well, as much as I don't enjoy being shafted by the banks, I trust Jesus Christ and my eternal salvation much more than I am worried about little games that talmudist bankers and Hollywood producers and big business CEO's are going to play. Their chess board is going to come to an end, and won't mean squat in the long run. It all depends on where one's focus is.

Jmo. Everyone can make up their own mind on the matter.

[bellevuebully]

If heaven is real, why not end all this to join the party early up there?

It can't be a sin...all you wanted to do was get closer to god.



BB, don't be mistaken. You serve a god too. You've just chosen a different one than I have.

[sirgonzo420]

If heaven is real, why not end all this to join the party early up there?

It can't be a sin...all you wanted to do was get closer to god.






According to the Kabbalists, that's what got Man into this predicament in the first place (assuming one doesn't blame God).


God told Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Adam told Eve not to eat of the Tree, not even to touch it, or she would die. (He made the Law more strict to try to protect them)

The Nachash (original hebrew word that was translated as "serpent", but means something closer to shaman, or enchanter) told Eve that she would be like God if she ate of the Tree.

She repeated what Adam had told her (not to eat of the Tree, not even to touch it, or she would die).

The Nachash told her she wouldn't die, and nudged her into the Tree, so that she touched it.

Once Eve accidentally touched the Tree and didn't die, she knew Adam was incorrect, and went ahead and ate the fruit anyway, in an attempt to be closer to God.



Christians seem to blame Eve for disobeying Adam and God.

Kabbalists seem to blame Adam for trying to modify God's Law.


In the end, it's really all God's Game. Whatever the hell that is.

[bellevuebully]

In the end, it's really all God's Game. Whatever the hell that is.


Essentially I agree with what you have said. If it weren't so, it would seem reasonable that God himself would come down and explain it to us all as you would a 3 year old. He hasn't done this, so there is another purpose to his method. I trust he knows what he is doing.

[Horn]

If heaven is real, why not end all this to join the party early up there?

It can't be a sin...all you wanted to do was get closer to god.

Arriving to a party early is simply bad etiquette, some might consider it a damnable offense.

At least you will need to bring the head of an enemy with you.

[Bullion_Bob]

If heaven is real, why not end all this to join the party early up there?

It can't be a sin...all you wanted to do was get closer to god.

Arriving to a party early is simply bad etiquette, some might consider it a damnable offense.

At least you will need to bring the head of an enemy with you.


That begs the question if people that commit suicide are denied.

I know two people that went through with this, mostly it was their upbringing, bad family life...unable to cope.

[Horn]

That begs the question if people that commit suicide are denied.

I know two people that went through with this, mostly it was their upbringing, bad family life...unable to cope.


Slow path to self destruction half the planet is following could (in the span of time) be considered the same.

Its probably more likely that the self inflicted damn themselves after the fact.

Nothing is permanent.