Scrap gold values - noob

[sumncguy]

Ok I have 25.5g of 14k and 14.4g of 10k

http://goldvaluecalculator.com/gold-calculator/ says what I have is worth about $1015.
The best offer was $750.
That would mean the dealer makes 265 right off the bat.

what % of 1015 = 265

Y x 1015 = 265
265
---- = Y
1015

Y = ~26% profit ... want to know if Im getting ripped off or not.
Is this an acceptable profit to expect the dealer to make ?

[Sparky]

Yes, that's a reasonable offer.

[Olmstein]

Maybe you could do better if you trade your scrap for some coins or bullion the dealer has. Sometimes you can get a better "trade" deal than a "cash" deal.

[beefsteak]

Ok I have 25.5g of 14k and 14.4g of 10k

http://goldvaluecalculator.com/gold-calculator/ says what I have is worth about $1015.
The best offer was $750.
That would mean the dealer makes 265 right off the bat.

what % of 1015 = 265

Y x 1015 = 265
265
---- = Y
1015

Y = ~26% profit ... want to know if Im getting ripped off or not.
Is this an acceptable profit to expect the dealer to make ?


For a price comparison, I know someone who consistently pays 82%. Your offer is 74%. I would suggest the difference is in large part due to the price volatility risk tolerance of whichever buyer you pick. The one who pays 82% has a higher risk tolerance than the one only offering 74%.

It may look like they are getting 26% off the top, but that most often is not the case.

For example, if any of the products market 14K have any solder on them, they are OVERKARATED by calling them 14K unless they are 14K Plumb and stamped with that marking.

Current law allows for a 1/2K BELOW stamp tolerance for fabricated items which are karat stamped.

So, fleshing this out the whole distance, the math looks like this:
14K Plumb is valued at $1500 PoG: $28.13 per gram 14K
1/2K less = .5625 (13.5Kt) vs .5833 (14Kt) or 96% valuation of $28.13 right off the bat.

So, there's a reduction to the buyer of 4% simply for "Federal Law ALLOWS" tolerances, or buying something called 14Kt which truly isn't 14Kt.

Hope this helps.

beefsteak

[beefsteak]

Maybe you could do better if you trade your scrap for some coins or bullion the dealer has. Sometimes you can get a better "trade" deal than a "cash" deal.


It is my experience, Olmstein, that is now rare to find a "trade for" situation. The govt is now tracking this stuff much closer and requires said material to be TWO transactions instead of a swapperoo. This is the way they justify 2 taxable transactions.

Woe be to the outfit who is caught "not playing nice-y nice with the tax man.

What you are suggestion used to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more common than it is in this Patriot Act, government-is-broke-and-needs-all-our-nickels-and-dimes day and age.

beefsteak

[madfranks]

I would also say that's a reasonable offer. You have to remember, you're selling scrap "junk" gold to a bullion dealer. They have to pay to have the scrap melted, refined, and remade into bullion form. That costs money, the dealer's overhead costs money, and he has to make a profit out of it all. If you were selling bullion coins, that would be a different story and at that point 74% is not reasonable.

Anyone here remember The Skeptic and his epic "I buy gold for 35% of spot every day" thread? :D

[big country]

If you're willing to deal with mail-order this place is the best I've found for prices and I've never heard a bad thing about them

http://www.midwestrefineries.com/

They pay 95% of the actual gold weight. If you send under 3toz they give you the "average" of what 14k refines down to. If you send more then 3toz they actually assay and refine your gold and pay you on actual metal.

I think you might need to call them to find out what their "average" weight is so you can calculate what you will get back and go from there.

[beefsteak]

I have personal knowledge from 2 FORMER Midwest customers which are true, real-life horror experiences with Midwest. As a result, I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw an elephant. And I've never done business with them. Nor will I ever do business with them.
Sorry to be the witness to not-acceptable outcomes with Midwest. And hearing about that "average of what 14K refines down to" on 3t/o of gold to refine, is so bogus I can't believe I just heard that.

beefsteak

[madfranks]

Hmmm, I'm learning a lot here, thanks guys.

[big country]

I have personal knowledge from 2 FORMER Midwest customers which are true, real-life horror experiences with Midwest. As a result, I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw an elephant. And I've never done business with them. Nor will I ever do business with them.
Sorry to be the witness to not-acceptable outcomes with Midwest. And hearing about that "average of what 14K refines down to" on 3t/o of gold to refine, is so bogus I can't believe I just heard that.

beefsteak


Care to share their stories? I'd like to hear the details.

Also, I just read that on their site which is why I repeated it. Here is the actual cut-n-paste from their site:


Gold orders under 3 troy ounces are purchased outright, based on average after melt weight loss and karat purity.

Gold orders of 3 troy ounces or more are melted and assayed to determine exact gold content.

You receive 100% of the market or spot price on the day your order is completed and ready for settlement.

http://www.midwestrefineries.com/gold.htm

[beefsteak]

I have permission from the 1st friend who gave me a headszup on Midwest. I do NOT have permission to share the specifics from my second friend who recently got reamed to the tune of several thousand dollars by Midwest.

The first friend got all excited after learning how to slip gold plate off of gold plated electronic parts. He was a little unsure of whether or not he was really doing it right, and chose Midwest as his refiner after his hard work. When he shipped off all his gold plate flakes, he included 3+ oz of placer gold he'd mined himself. After shipping, he did not hear back from Midwest so he began to bug them over the phone and email them. First they told him they couldn't find having received anything from him. They they admitted they finally "found record" of receiving his shipment." But they didn't show his placer gold at all. Just the gold plate flakes he shipped. They told him there wasn't enough there to mess with. He kept calling, and they would always promise to call back. After several more calls, they started refusing his phone calls.

He never received a dime, nor did he get ANY of his shipment back. He is very very bitter about this experience with Midwest refineries.

[big country]

Thanks, that is the first I've heard bad about them. You could also try http://www.aragold.com/index.html Those are the only two refiners I know off the top of my heard w/o doing some more research.

Any bad reviews on ARA gold?

Also here is the BBB page for midwest:
http://www.bbb.org/eastern-michigan/business-reviews/smelters-and-refiners-precious-metals/midwest-refineries-in-waterford-mi-32012736/

maybe have your friends make a complaint?

[beefsteak]

I've heard good things about ARA, but I've never been able to get them to call me back, even when I had a referral name. They are very picky I guess and only want to deal with the big money crowd. They've also been mentioned as a place to sell stones, but I don't have any of those, so I've never bothered to try to sell stones to them.

As far as filing a complaint, you bring up some interesting points with taking the discussion that direction.

One point is, embarrassment. I think that is why my friend#2 is reluctant to spread the word in the larger circle about having been ripped off so badly. He's embarrassed as well as mad.

Friend#1 is just plain mad, period. And he doesn't care who knows it.

The other point you touch upon is the fact that once one has shipped, where's the proof to back up one's claim that they were ripped off? The gold or silver or stones or whatever are gone. They are in the hands of the thief. And the thief is going to melt down and change form and stick the sucker, not send it back and get caught in their lies and bad business dealings.

Something like that happened to me the other day on FeeBay. I bought something with a sizeable price tag that was precious metals. I relied upon the description in order to calculate value and win the "best offer" gets the deal schtick.

The item arrives. It is NOT as described...karat marks are missing and that's just for starters. SO I notify them using eBay's internal mail system, since I have the goods and their fraud is clearly visible to anyone who can read with or without a loupe. They claim they have a no refund policy.

I still have the goods and the proof of the fraud. Then I file a claim. One thing I've learned is never to file a claim unless I leave negatory feedback. So I did, and THEN filed the claim.
They couldn't get the money refunded quickly enough.

One problem...Paypal. So paypal demands good funds immediately, right? But they mickey mouse on the refund timing. 10 days or 2weeks something like that. And you have to provide them a whole bunch more personal information if you want it sooner. Otherwise, you have to wait until 30 days after your anniversary sign up date to get the second tranche of your own money back. Another 30days after that to get your 3rd tranche, etc., until you finally get all your funds back. This major sucks.

Until the money was in my hands, I wasn't letting go of this item, and I didn't have the money. So, I held onto the item. This jerk filed a police report for theft on me from New Jersey and I live in NM with the County Attorney of the office to where he shipped my misdiscribed auction winnings. They send out the police for an investigation of theft and THEY threaten me.

I told them what I told him...when paypal quits dickin' around, I'll ship it back and not one minute sooner. And I promised to fax them a copy of the postal record when the shipment is made. It's still dragging on. By August I expect to finally get all my money back from Paypal. In the meantime, the police have wasted their time, and the jerk is calling and emailing and pounding on me for his fraud. Go figure.

I told the cops that until I had all my money SAFELY OUT OF THE PAYPAL SYSTEM, that I had no proof of the fraud if I let go and shipped before I got all my money back, whether or not he refunded me. Like Twisted Titan says, if you don't hold it, you don't own it.

So, the cops asked to see the purchased item, and I showed it to them. Happens that it was all boxed up and ready to go back to the seller, when my money is out, so they saw me unwrap it in front of them, examined it, and compared what their eyes told them compared to what the seller had written up on the ebay description. They saw immediately it didn't match and said so. Yeah, the NJ jerk sent them a email with the ebay number on it and they had a color copy of the entire ebay listing when they knocked on my door.

I told them I was glad they came to see for themselves, because I knew that if I shipped before I got my money out of paypal, I was stuck because I had no proof, just my word against New Jersey. Now, I had THEIR word as well that it was fraudulent.

They told me that they had discussed me with the County Attorney, and the C.A. told THEM that if I had NO intention of returning it, then I was guilty of fraud. But since they could see that I had planned all along to ship it back because I unwrapped the prepped package in front of them right on my front porch where they were standing, then I wasn't guilty of fraud and they could close the case--in August when paypal finally has me paid out.

My point to this long story...I had NO levereage if I have no proof of the fraud because I shipped back too quickly. And that is what the rip off refiners do. They quick hit the melting pot so that it is your word against theirs, and the customer is always wrong when it comes to the refining business if there is no proof of what you shipped.

Hope this helps clarify some issues about precious metals descriptions, refiners, promises to pay, even shipping receipts, and why I don't do mail order precious metals business without a payback guarantee from a third party. And it's the same reasons people don't file complaints against the Midwests of the world. The deck is stacked against them, and the house always wins because there is no physical evidence anything took place at all.

beefsteak