The hot tip in personal defense ammo?

[midnight rambler]

Very impressive stuff

http://www.rbcd.net/home.cfm

[midnight rambler]

This ammo was recommended to me by a RKI whom I trust and respect. He did tell me that this ammo was 'louder' than most other ammo. After looking into this ammo further it appears there are two camps, one camp who likes this ammo, and the other camp (the majority) who thinks it's all a bunch of hype. So YMMV.

[willie pete]

I'm not much of a fan of these types of ammo ...if someone wants to use it, so be it.....I like hi-Velocity stuff,(CorBon for one) just not coupled with really light-weight bullets or frangibles;... most of what I've seen is they break up and shatter on impact and don't penetrate ...anyway these guys test all sorts of stuff, here's the test they did with the rbcd ammo ::)


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot38.htm

[midnight rambler]

After all I've read up about this ammo I won't be using any of it. For one thing the louder than usual report turns me off. The other thing is it isn't a 'for sure' round, there are some doubts as to its effectiveness across a broad spectrum of potential scenarios. My good friend has high regards for this ammo, and he's extremely well versed in reloading, ballistics, etc. but his pitch hasn't sold me on the concept.

[Dogman]

I'm not much of a fan of these types of ammo ...if someone wants to use it, so be it.....I like hi-Velocity stuff,(CorBon for one) just not coupled with really light-weight bullets or frangibles;... most of what I've seen is they break up and shatter on impact and don't penetrate ...anyway these guys test all sorts of stuff, here's the test they did with the rbcd ammo ::)


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot38.htm


There are two schools of thought on this.

The objective is when the target/bad guy, is hit you want to cause the most damage possible.

Regular rounds can pass through with some expansion and in some cases exit the target, but when the bullet exits the wound/target it still has energy that is carried away with it.

Rounds that break up can cause more damage to what it hits and all of the energy is transfered to the target
and the pieces scatter in the target causing damage. Edit: Plus it would be a bitch to treat the wound.

But the trade off is the fragmenting bullet does not weigh as much as a regular round so it does not carry as
much energy as a regular round, the way to "fix" it is to increase the velocity.

Not sure between the two types of rounds would cause the most hydrostatic shock damage, but I would bet it would be the fragmenting one as a best guess.

[willie pete]

I'm not much of a fan of these types of ammo ...if someone wants to use it, so be it.....I like hi-Velocity stuff,(CorBon for one) just not coupled with really light-weight bullets or frangibles;... most of what I've seen is they break up and shatter on impact and don't penetrate ...anyway these guys test all sorts of stuff, here's the test they did with the rbcd ammo ::)


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot38.htm


There are two schools of thought on this.

The objective is when the target/bad guy, is hit you want to cause the most damage possible.

Regular rounds can pass through with some expansion and in some cases exit the target, but when the bullet exits the wound/target it still has energy that is carried away with it.

Rounds that break up can cause more damage to what it hits and all of the energy is transfered to the target
and the pieces scatter in the target causing damage. Edit: Plus it would be a bitch to treat the wound.

But the trade off is the fragmenting bullet does not weigh as much as a regular round so it does not carry as
much energy as a regular round, the way to "fix" it is to increase the velocity.

Not sure between the two types of rounds would cause the most hydrostatic shock damage, but I would bet it would be the fragmenting one as a best guess.




Don't quote me, I'm no expert, but hi-Velocity jacketed bullets do come apart at times, and you're right, there are a couple schools of thought, I prefer a heavier bullet to maximize penetration while trying to stay with the highest velocity possible

[Heimdhal]

VERY simply put, fuck all the noise, the single only thing you are reliably counting on in any handgun round for SELF DEFENSE is the penetration and laceration of vital areas.

Your first criteria for a round is "will it penetrate to a depth that will hit vital organs?" Your next is "Will it do enough damage to said organ to acheive desirable results?"

Penetration and Expansion. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placment.

Ft/lbs of energy imparted, soft tissue damage, all that stuff is great, but it doesnt mean shit if you dont hit something vital. Sure, itll cause tons of trauma, and trauma is good, but your main purpose is to stop the attack and the fastest way to do that is to kill the attacker.

400 ft/lbs of energy into the guys hip or gut is going to suck balls for him, and help you cause as much damage as possible, but its NOT going to take him out of the fight. 200 ft lbs of energy through the guys medula because the bullet didnt dump its full kinetic load will drop him like a light switch turning off.

[mightymanx]

Pistols have never been, no never will be a death ray.

The closest thing we ever had to that was cookiecutter rounds (hollow points filled with C-4 goes bang when it hits somthing solid) and you sure in the hell are not gong to find those in your gunshop.

If you want rifle like performance use a rifle Pistols are for when you get caught without a rifle. It allows you to be anoying enough to flee and get the proper tool for the job.

[willie pete]

Pistols have never been, no never will be a death ray.

The closest thing we ever had to that was cookiecutter rounds (hollow points filled with C-4 goes bang when it hits somthing solid) and you sure in the hell are not gong to find those in your gunshop.

If you want rifle like performance use a rifle Pistols are for when you get caught without a rifle. It allows you to be anoying enough to flee and get the proper tool for the job.



I didn't know C-4 would detonate upon impact? .....I thought it had to be charged with a blasting cap, or something like an M-80...to initiate it, I know you can burn it...I've seen, in the past, hollow points that had a large rifle primer in the nose, ....Now they would explode on impact...but there again, how much more effective would it be? I used to wonder about filling up a hollow point with RAID :D ....then capping it off solder or something, that way if you "wing-em" .....they'll still die a few days later.... :D

[midnight rambler]

Pistols have never been, no never will be a death ray.

The closest thing we ever had to that was cookiecutter rounds (hollow points filled with C-4 goes bang when it hits somthing solid) and you sure in the hell are not gong to find those in your gunshop.

If you want rifle like performance use a rifle Pistols are for when you get caught without a rifle. It allows you to be anoying enough to flee and get the proper tool for the job.


A proper rifle, or a 12 ga. shotgun with the proper load(s).

[big country]

I carry RBCD in my 9mm. Human targets are soft. I want 100% of the energy inside my target w/o fear of hitting a bystander behind with an unnecessarily over-penetrating shot. If my target takes cover behind something I need to "penetrate" that should give me time to turn my ass around and run away! I'm not staying in a gunfight to be a hero. I'm not above running away.

In an unarmored, uncovered human target you need to penetrate what? 7-8 inches until you're out the back side of their body? You don't need 24 inches of penetration for human targets.

Just my opinion of course. Opinions are like ass holes. Every has one and they all stink.

[Heimdhal]

I carry RBCD in my 9mm. Human targets are soft. I want 100% of the energy inside my target w/o fear of hitting a bystander behind with an unnecessarily over-penetrating shot. If my target takes cover behind something I need to "penetrate" that should give me time to turn my ass around and run away! I'm not staying in a gunfight to be a hero. I'm not above running away.

In an unarmored, uncovered human target you need to penetrate what? 7-8 inches until you're out the back side of their body? You don't need 24 inches of penetration for human targets.

Just my opinion of course. Opinions are like ass holes. Every has one and they all stink.


8 to 12 for "average". Humans are denser than they look and you must account for things like bones and fatty tissue which ballistics gel doesnt really factor in. Same goes for types of clothing worn and of course whether you hit them direct on or not.

Modern defensive loadings are pretty good at dumping their energy IF they expand properly. Even the best loads dont expand properly 100% of the time, again because of factors like those listed above.

Youre right in that over penetration is NOT good, but under penetration is even worse. If you cant get the shot to disrupt a vital organ, the threat remains.

[Heimdhal]

Heres something I swiped from another forum where we are having this converstaion (it happens frequently).


This has been around a long time I'm sure most of us has seen this. IT IS VERY GRAPHIC, if you can not handle autopsy photos then don't look.
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf

Notice in the X-ray the bullet that stopped in the throat and not expanded. Also pay attention to details in the report.

"Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely shattering the bone. He was
also hit five times in the chest and abdomen. All rounds penetrated less than 1". All of the rounds
expanded fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration. According to the
Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life threatening injuries. The subject also
received one round into the front of his throat, it penetrated less than 1" as well. The Medical
Examiner stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had rifling marks on
them)."

"Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds went completely
through. One round struck his hip and completely shattered it. Another .223 round struck his
aorta and another pierced and collapsed his lung. Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside
the subject. The Medical Examiner stated that the .223 rounds caused massive internal damage."

Six .40 S&W rounds, five which expanded, were
recovered on autopsy.

• It is impossible for .40 S&W 180 gr. JHP
ammunition to expand with only 1 in. or less
penetration in a human body.

• After all .223 rounds had been fired, assailant was
hit with 180 gr. Gold Dot in right arm above the
elbow.


• Officers had to “fight” assailant in order to get
handcuffed.
Believe what you want, nothing is a guarantee, all we can do is improve our chances of survival, that's it.