Applying logic to religion (folly, I know)

[sirgonzo420]

I was gonna post this in the Religion section, but dammit, I'm a General Discussion man!

lol, the mods can move it if they so desire






1. God is omnipresent.

2. God is benevolent.

3. Evil exists.


You can only have two out of three.


Discuss.


:)

[Gaillo]

Posted this in the other thread:

If God forsees evil, but is unable to stop it, then he is not omnipotent.
If God can stop evil, but was unable to forsee it, then he is not omniscient.
If God can forsee evil, and can stop it, but is unwilling, then he is evil.
If God can neither forsee nor stop evil, then he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent... why call him "God"?

Most people counter this with the "freewill" argument (God allows evil to exist so we can have freewill) - but how much "freewill" does a 8-month old infant have before being raped and murdered in some third-world hellhole?

I've come to the conclusion personally that God is either complicit with evil, and thus evil himself, or God (as a functional, thinking being) doesn't exist. I see the wonders (and horrors) of nature, I KNOW it exists - so I'll stick to "Universe/Natural Laws Worship" for now, until I see a SHRED of evidence for a "benevolent/loving God" - if God is evil, I want NOTHING to do with his worship or glorification.

[StreetsOfGold]

Evil is not the same as sin.

Evil is a result of sin

God cannot sin

Man sins thus evil is perpetuated by man, but since God created everything he also created evil.

Evil (as it exists in the world) is a reflection of man's sin and (hopefully) shows the need for forgiveness (from God) though the Saviour Jesus Christ.

conclusion: You can have ALL 3 without any problems

[sirgonzo420]

Evil is not the same as sin.

Evil is a result of sin

God cannot sin

Man sins thus evil is perpetuated by man, but since God created everything he also created evil.

Evil (as it exists in the world) is a reflection of man's sin and (hopefully) shows the need for forgiveness (from God) though the Saviour Jesus Christ.

conclusion: You can have ALL 3 without any problems



Sounds like God (the bible character) messed up if Man wasn't meant to sin.

[Gaillo]

StreetsOfGold,
So... God (in all his "perfection") created a race of imperfect beings, then punishes us (with "Evil" and "sin") for being imperfect?
Sounds like God is an incompetent designer - not someone that I would choose to worship.

[Dogman]

Using the words religion and logic in the same sentence is a oxymoron. ;D
As this thread will prove! ;D

[MAGNES]

Sounds like God is an incompetent designer - not someone that I would choose to worship.


How about forces of nature ?

There is actually Church doctrine believe it or not, reason prevails scripture.

The Byzantines were doing this, highly religious, see my thread on this.

The overriding themes I believe are Justice and Freedom.

Just like Greek mythology. Where Justice and Freedom are natural forces of nature.
Among other related ones.

Gaillo the Atheist ?

What do you believe in Gaillo ?

Do you believe in Justice ? Freedom ? Peace ? Good Order ? Law ? Natural Law ?

[Spectrism]

If you approach this topic asking questions to which you are already sure you have the answers, what does that make you?



Posted this in the other thread:

If God forsees evil, but is unable to stop it, then he is not omnipotent. If God can stop evil, but was unable to forsee it, then he is not omniscient.

There is nothing unknown to YHWH. He knew what would happen and is not bound by time. He created time and controls it. YOU put the word "unable" into the thought. That is your preconception. YHWH allows- for this time- the evil choices of those He created.



If God can forsee evil, and can stop it, but is unwilling, then he is evil.

No. He is patient. The Messiah explained this in a parable. Read Matthew 13.

He will soon return to do this-
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.



If God can neither forsee nor stop evil, then he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent... why call him "God"?

If you cannot see what is plainly before you and you mock a patient power Who will soon judge you, why strut around as if you have good vision and are self-sufficient? Your days will be like those of the grass of the field. Watch even this year as they burn up.



Most people counter this with the "freewill" argument (God allows evil to exist so we can have freewill) - but how much "freewill" does a 8-month old infant have before being raped and murdered in some third-world hellhole?

How can people explain things to you repeatedly but you selectively hear what you already preconceive?



I've come to the conclusion personally that God is either complicit with evil, and thus evil himself, or God (as a functional, thinking being) doesn't exist. I see the wonders (and horrors) of nature, I KNOW it exists - so I'll stick to "Universe/Natural Laws Worship" for now, until I see a SHRED of evidence for a "benevolent/loving God" - if God is evil, I want NOTHING to do with his worship or glorification.

You will not see any evidence that you have already decided is non-existant. If you are fortunate, you will be broken and humbled to the point where you have to cry out to God. Unfortunately, nearly ALL the world is about to face just this circumstance and here is what they will do:

Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

[Gaillo]

Sounds like God is an incompetent designer - not someone that I would choose to worship.


How about forces of nature ?

There is actually Church doctrine believe it or not, reason prevails scripture.

The Byzantines were doing this, highly religious, see my thread on this.

The overriding themes I believe are Justice and Freedom.

Just like Greek mythology. Where Justice and Freedom are natural forces of nature.
Among other related ones.

Gaillo the Atheist ?

What do you believe in Gaillo ?

Do you believe in Justice ? Freedom ? Peace ? Good Order ? Law ? Natural Law ?


MAGNES,
I believe that the universe opreates within an immutable set of natural laws that continue in their workings REGARDLESS of how human beings like/dislike it... and these natural laws do NOT care one bit what we "wish" they were. Part of those natural laws (cooperation, predation, indifference, etc.) have become a part of the human "psyche" (mind) through thousands of years of observing nature, observing each other (which is the same thing), and by interacting with nature and each other.

Concepts such as justice, mercy, cooperation, empathy, etc. are PART of nature, and DEFINITELY serve a survival purpose for Man, and to a greater/lesser extent to other beings (animals/insects/etc.) depending on the NATURE of that being. Even the most primitive beings (bacteria colonies, coral, insects, etc.) "recognize" that cooperation is mutually beneficial, and that social "rules" and "justice" serve EVERYONE involved in the situation. You do not need a "God" or religious "morality" to explain and justify those noble concepts... even the lowly child KNOWS what is right and wrong about theft, killing, starvation, etc. before being perverted and brainwashed by their "betters" as they grow up.

[Bullion_Bob]

Once you apply logic to religion, the answer universal answer to all unanswerable questions inevitably comes up as......well....because god.

The unrelenting, never questioned, all accepting, perpetual blind faith.

Don't ask questions...just accept...always accept...say it with me.....because god.

I can't get my head to work like that.

[Bullion_Bob]

It's interesting. The vast majority of my smites get piled on whenever I buck the grain on religion or full tinfoil conspiracy theories. Ironically I think that probably says more about other people than it does about me.

I think I got about 50 for the Jackie-o shot JFK saga. Just about the rest for not going full kool aid on what is written in the bible...lol. ;D

[madfranks]

StreetsOfGold,
So... God (in all his "perfection") created a race of imperfect beings, then punishes us (with "Evil" and "sin") for being imperfect?
Sounds like God is an incompetent designer - not someone that I would choose to worship.


John 15:3 - Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

I believe this, that the ultimate way to demonstrate love for someone is to make the ultimate sacrifice for them.

Romans 5:8 - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us

Since God is Love, there is no greater way to show it than to die on our behalf. God created man and allowed him to get into a predicament so deep and all encompassing that nothing short of His own death on our behalf would solve the problem. The whole system was designed this way, not out of incompetence, but out of love.

[Gaillo]

It's interesting. The vast majority of my smites get piled on whenever I buck the grain on religion or full tinfoil conspiracy theories. Ironically I think that probably says more about other people than it does about me.

I think I got about 50 for the Jackie-o shot JFK saga. Just about the rest for not going full kool aid on what is written in the bible...lol. ;D


Yep! Looks like I picked up about 15 new smites today... the first day in AGES that I've bothered to post about anything (non-)Religious! I can just FEEL all that good, wholesome brotherly Christian love in the air! ;D

[mightymanx]

Religon is a control systemlike any other, it is the origonal version of the Matrix.

My seperation from religion came from my Priest telling us in sunday school that if you were not catholic you were going to Hell.

I asked "but Father what about the people in China they are not catholic are they going to hell?"

Priest "yes"


Me" But father if god is all mercifull and he created all creatures why would he condem the largest populationto hell?" and then why did he create them in the first place?"

Priest "Yours is not to queston the ways of god!"

This started and completed my seperation with that particular control system.

[wrs]

1. God is omnipresent.

2. God is benevolent.

3. Evil exists.


You can only have two out of three.


Discuss.


Evil is just a matter of perception. Some people consider spitting on the sidewalk to be evil others wouldn't consider killing a man to be evil if they condoned of the circumstances. So evil is contextual and not absolute. If God exists then God is absolute and of course God would be in everything which means everything would be a manifestation of God including what many perceive as evil. Thus, God is neither entirely love nor is God entirely benevolent because if God is everywhere, then God is in love and in hatred as well.

Religion tries to define absolutes in a way that satisfies a certain view of the world but in fact, absolutes are far different than people perceive them. For example, I see a lot of complaints about communism as though it were some kind of evil or collectivism as though it were stealing. However, the body itself is a collective and cells don't have individual freedom, they have duties to perform and they are limited by the duties they perform. Some cells can move around and appear to have freedom such as blood cells but they too have a duty to perform and so their freedom is constrained by their duty. We have been brainwashed to believe we are entitled to some kind of "free will" when in fact the cells in our body have none. How is it we can have free will if that of which we are composed doesn't?

The idea of God presented by religion is far too simplistic to be considered seriously, it's just a way to keep you from looking within yourself and seeing yourself for what you are, a collective that works because it cooperates. The idea of sin is another way to keep you from looking at yourself in the proper way and to keep you focused on externals. Evil is connected with the idea of sin and thus, it serves no purpose unless it's viewed simply as something that exists and that isn't going to go away but must be dealt with. The way we deal with the various evils is what will shape our existence. If we seek to eradicate all evils then we will fail to accomplish something of far greater value. Eradication of evil cannot be the goal of existence and if it is, then existence has been an abject failure and so has it's God. Thus, any religion that considers that God intends to eradicate evil is false because God is evil as well as good and God would have to eradicate itself if the goal of existence was to eradicate evil.

[ximmy]

How many ways can you write, "Can God make a rock so big He can't move it?"

[bellevuebully]

To the thread title, I might say the same to widely accepted scientific knowledge. Personally, I find it a major leap of reasoning to assume everything in the universe was formed out of nothing. I find it much more reconcilable that that which we have around us in the way of the natural universe is something that was contrived of and designed and that it's formation came from or was generated from creative thought.

Now some might say the same would go for God....where did He come from?....from nothing? The fact is that that also is a leap of reasoning because we are contemplating something beyond our reach in both scenario's.

But when you look at the model of everything we know and witness, we often see things contrived of and created, whether it be as complex as a man-made rocket, or as simple as a nest made from the lowliest of birds. On the contrary, when do we ever see something with an organized nature form from total random chance?

I'm not trying to make anyone believe in God. It isn't my responsibility. That is God's domain. Everyone here has heard the gospel message and much more than the average joe so as far as I am concerned whatever lies in the future on that path is between you and God. But I do sincerely wonder how many here who do not believe ask themselves these hard questions? I know as a believer, I have asked many hard, critiquing questions towards God. In many ways, I think non-believers fit into one of two catagories.....the first being faith in what they have been taught (similar to what athiests would charge of raising children in faith), or second, those willing and satisfied not really addressing it.

Something from nothing is at the root of the question. It's a question both believers and non-believers should contemplate.

[drafter]

I believe there is "energy" or "powers" in the universe that can not be explained and that our lives and "souls" are intertwined with these powers. "Time", "Perception", an "afterlife" or continuation of that "soul" or "energy" are all things that intrigue me.

I don't believe in "organized religion" though. On the face, it should be fairly obvious to critical thinkers that organized religion is nothing more than a control system. "Do as we say, believe as we believe" or no "heaven paved with gold, 20 virgins, gold star and a cookie, or whatever else "carrot" is at the end of their religous "stick". I just can't imagine the logic in a group that's sole purpose is to convince you to not question, but to merely have "faith" and believe.

I'm sorry but I'm going to question everything and decide for myself. Isn't that what "free will" is about? If that runs counter to what "god" intends then it's "god" that has a schizophrenic personality disorder not knowing what the hell he created us to do.

Anyways, I still respect peoples choice to believe what they want when it comes to religion. I would never try to "convert" you to whatever mixed up beliefs I may have. It's not my purpose in life to change your mind. We all need to ultimately figure these things out for ourselves because in the end, when our eyes close for the last time, only we as an individual will know if what we believed made a difference in what happens.

[dys]

'Religion' is just a red herring. Religions are all corrupted and infiltrated. Christianity is no exception. Some of the most dangerous people... wait, check, THE most dangerous people I have ever encountered in this world are fake Christians.
I don't care about religion, Jesus Christ is the key. Speaking for myself, once I developed a relationship with Him, I had some pretty shocking realizations:

1. How shamefully and selfishly I had chosen to live my life. How hopelessly lost I really was.
2. How circumscribed my perspective is in this world. What do I know about what happened before, what will happen after, what goes on behind the scenes? Almost nothing. See the Matrix threads. We don't know squat in the big picture about anything.
3. How out of place the true believers are in this world.

These are things I never would have seen without Jesus Christ. NEVER!
This is my experience.

dys

[bellevuebully]

But when you look at the model of everything we know and witness, we often see things contrived of and created, whether it be as complex as a man-made rocket, or as simple as a nest made from the lowliest of birds. On the contrary, when do we ever see something with an organized nature form from total random chance?



Just to add onto this thought a little. I can see how one might make the connection in thinking that evolution is a valid theory. First of all, we see anatomical similarities in different species. Second, we've been told evolution is fact since we were children. But the focus is always on the before and after. What happened to all of the in-between? When the leg was hollowing out to become a light wing bone, how did it support the weight of the creature? At some juncture through the supposed process, would not the limbs undergoing the said change be renderred rather useless thereby placing the creature at inevitable risk of survival?

Again, Christians are often accused of accepting things without thinking...of being brainwashed. But I ask, how many non-believers have addressed the obvious holes in the status-quo theories and observed them with an open mind? I might suggest the notion of brainwashing more aptly applies to areas where there is greater breadth of acceptance...ie) the theory of evolution and natural selection. Is that not what human nature has demonstrated as the generality.

[DMac]

But when you look at the model of everything we know and witness, we often see things contrived of and created, whether it be as complex as a man-made rocket, or as simple as a nest made from the lowliest of birds. On the contrary, when do we ever see something with an organized nature form from total random chance?



Just to add onto this thought a little. I can see how one might make the connection in thinking that evolution is a valid theory. First of all, we see anatomical similarities in different species. Second, we've been told evolution is fact since we were children. But the focus is always on the before and after. What happened to all of the in-between? When the leg was hollowing out to become a light wing bone, how did it support the weight of the creature? At some juncture through the supposed process, would not the limbs undergoing the said change be renderred rather useless thereby placing the creature at inevitable risk of survival?

Again, Christians are often accused of accepting things without thinking...of being brainwashed. But I ask, how many non-believers have addressed the obvious holes in the status-quo theories and observed them with an open mind? I might suggest the notion of brainwashing more aptly applies to areas where there is greater breadth of acceptance...ie) the theory of evolution and natural selection. Is that not what human nature has demonstrated as the generality.


I've learned to stay in lurker mode during most of the religious debates, BB, but I wanted to highlight this post of yours.

Darwinian evolution has some serious flaws when it is used to explain how we got from bacteria to humans.

It amazes me how many atheists swallow the "evolution" explanation hook, line and sinker without the same skepticism shown to God.

[G2Rad]

I was gonna post this in the Religion section, but dammit, I'm a General Discussion man!
lol, the mods can move it if they so desire
1. God is omnipresent.
2. God is benevolent.
3. Evil exists.
You can only have two out of three.

There are independent/sovereign "players".
Being less than perfect those "players" make lesser than perfect (evil) decisions.
All that evil, is contained, judged, corrected and mitigated.
So, what is the problem?

[G2Rad]

Posted this in the other thread:

If God forsees evil, but is unable to stop it, then he is not omnipotent.
If God can stop evil, but was unable to forsee it, then he is not omniscient.
If God can forsee evil, and can stop it, but is unwilling, then he is evil.
If God can neither forsee nor stop evil, then he is neither omniscient nor omnipotent... why call him "God"?

Most people counter this with the "freewill" argument (God allows evil to exist so we can have freewill) - but how much "freewill" does a 8-month old infant have before being raped and murdered in some third-world hellhole?

I've come to the conclusion personally that God is either complicit with evil, and thus evil himself, or God (as a functional, thinking being) doesn't exist. I see the wonders (and horrors) of nature, I KNOW it exists - so I'll stick to "Universe/Natural Laws Worship" for now, until I see a SHRED of evidence for a "benevolent/loving God" - if God is evil, I want NOTHING to do with his worship or glorification.


that one I also answered

[sirgonzo420]

But when you look at the model of everything we know and witness, we often see things contrived of and created, whether it be as complex as a man-made rocket, or as simple as a nest made from the lowliest of birds. On the contrary, when do we ever see something with an organized nature form from total random chance?



Just to add onto this thought a little. I can see how one might make the connection in thinking that evolution is a valid theory. First of all, we see anatomical similarities in different species. Second, we've been told evolution is fact since we were children. But the focus is always on the before and after. What happened to all of the in-between? When the leg was hollowing out to become a light wing bone, how did it support the weight of the creature? At some juncture through the supposed process, would not the limbs undergoing the said change be renderred rather useless thereby placing the creature at inevitable risk of survival?

Again, Christians are often accused of accepting things without thinking...of being brainwashed. But I ask, how many non-believers have addressed the obvious holes in the status-quo theories and observed them with an open mind? I might suggest the notion of brainwashing more aptly applies to areas where there is greater breadth of acceptance...ie) the theory of evolution and natural selection. Is that not what human nature has demonstrated as the generality.


I've learned to stay in lurker mode during most of the religious debates, BB, but I wanted to highlight this post of yours.

Darwinian evolution has some serious flaws when it is used to explain how we got from bacteria to humans.

It amazes me how many atheists swallow the "evolution" explanation hook, line and sinker without the same skepticism shown to God.


I just wanted to note that I am not an atheist, and I don't completely agree with Darwinian evolution.

I have read the judeo-christian story, and it just doesn't really make sense. It's poetic, and dramatic, and even beautiful at times, but the picture painted of God is a far too human one.

[sirgonzo420]

I was gonna post this in the Religion section, but dammit, I'm a General Discussion man!
lol, the mods can move it if they so desire
1. God is omnipresent.
2. God is benevolent.
3. Evil exists.
You can only have two out of three.

There are independent/sovereign "players".
Being less than perfect those "players" make lesser than perfect (evil) decisions.
All that evil, is contained, judged, corrected and mitigated.
So, what is the problem?




Evil isn't really contained if Adam fucked up all Mankind (contaminated them with inherited sin) because he sinned with Eve in what was ultimately an attempt at getting closer to their Creator.


Why should I be damned from birth because Adam sinned?

[G2Rad]

I was gonna post this in the Religion section, but dammit, I'm a General Discussion man!
lol, the mods can move it if they so desire
1. God is omnipresent.
2. God is benevolent.
3. Evil exists.
You can only have two out of three.

There are independent/sovereign "players".
Being less than perfect those "players" make lesser than perfect (evil) decisions.
All that evil, is contained, judged, corrected and mitigated.
So, what is the problem?

Evil isn't really contained if Adam fucked up all Mankind (contaminated them with inherited sin) because he sinned with Eve in what was ultimately an attempt at getting closer to their Creator.


Adam is dead and in hell, you will also not live perpetually, so, how it is not contained?

[Sparky]

Religon is a control systemlike any other, it is the origonal version of the Matrix.

My seperation from religion came from my Priest telling us in sunday school that if you were not catholic you were going to Hell.

I asked "but Father what about the people in China they are not catholic are they going to hell?"

Priest "yes"


Me" But father if god is all mercifull and he created all creatures why would he condem the largest populationto hell?" and then why did he create them in the first place?"

Priest "Yours is not to queston the ways of god!"

This started and completed my seperation with that particular control system.



Have you let one individual (that priest) or one sect (Roman Catholicism) determine your perspective? Don't you know Jesus also mocked religion?

[G2Rad]

Why should I be damned from birth because Adam sinned?

you aren't damned from birth; babies who died don't go to hell

[Sparky]

...

I just wanted to note that I am not an atheist, and I don't completely agree with Darwinian evolution.

I have read the judeo-christian story, and it just doesn't really make sense. It's poetic, and dramatic, and even beautiful at times, but the picture painted of God is a far too human one.
...



This picture was painted by humans. Transcend it.

[Sparky]

...

Just to add onto this thought a little. I can see how one might make the connection in thinking that evolution is a valid theory. First of all, we see anatomical similarities in different species. Second, we've been told evolution is fact since we were children. But the focus is always on the before and after. What happened to all of the in-between? When the leg was hollowing out to become a light wing bone, how did it support the weight of the creature? At some juncture through the supposed process, would not the limbs undergoing the said change be renderred rather useless thereby placing the creature at inevitable risk of survival?
...


First, I don't think evolution is necessarily inconsistent with Christianity. Is that what you are implying BB?

Second, I don't understand your evolution example. Doesn't evolution mean the creature's weight slowly decreases (over generations) as the hollowing increases (over generations), so that the weight/support ratio remains sustainable?

[sirgonzo420]

Why should I be damned from birth because Adam sinned?

you aren't damned from birth; babies who died don't go to hell


So then one is damned from the "age of accountability".... I try to be accountable for MY actions (but not my great-great-great-grandfather's). I try to live honorably and in accordance with Law. Why should I be punished with eternal damnation in Hell because I don't understand the metaphysics of why Jesus had to die for my sins (really, ADAM's sins...)?

When I was a little child in bible camp, I remember the night I thought I became "saved". It seemed real enough at the time, but the feeling quickly faded, and I started questioning. I even read the whole damn bible, but that just gave me more questions and chased me even farther from "faith" and "salvation".

Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH, right?

When I was a kid in bible camp, I had that faith, at least for a little bit. Perhaps I lacked the "grace of God"?

My heart has been "open to Christ" since I was a kid, but Jesus has not taken the offer. I thought he did when I was a little kid, but only for a very brief time.

[G2Rad]

I try to live honorably and in accordance with Law. Why should I be punished with eternal damnation in Hell because I don't understand the metaphysics of why Jesus had to die for my sins (really, ADAM's sins...)?

When I was a little child in bible camp, I remember the night I thought I became "saved". It seemed real enough at the time, but the feeling quickly faded, and I started questioning. I even read the whole damn bible, but that just gave me more questions and chased me even farther from "faith" and "salvation".

Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH, right?

When I was a kid in bible camp, I had that faith, at least for a little bit. Perhaps I lacked the "grace of God"?

My heart has been "open to Christ" since I was a kid, but Jesus has not taken the offer. I thought he did when I was a little kid, but only for a very brief time.


I can only guess. You are one of the smartest guys over here, yet your heart refuses to understand simple matters. Is it because you hate to have a judge over you; or you resent someone sending you to hell. Perhaps you believe punishment is inadequate to your “so-called-crimes”?

What exactly happened that night? What made you think that you are saved?
How did they do that?

[dys]

Why should I be damned from birth because Adam sinned?

you aren't damned from birth; babies who died don't go to hell


So then one is damned from the "age of accountability".... I try to be accountable for MY actions (but not my great-great-great-grandfather's). I try to live honorably and in accordance with Law. Why should I be punished with eternal damnation in Hell because I don't understand the metaphysics of why Jesus had to die for my sins (really, ADAM's sins...)?

When I was a little child in bible camp, I remember the night I thought I became "saved". It seemed real enough at the time, but the feeling quickly faded, and I started questioning. I even read the whole damn bible, but that just gave me more questions and chased me even farther from "faith" and "salvation".

Salvation is by GRACE through FAITH, right?

When I was a kid in bible camp, I had that faith, at least for a little bit. Perhaps I lacked the "grace of God"?

My heart has been "open to Christ" since I was a kid, but Jesus has not taken the offer. I thought he did when I was a little kid, but only for a very brief time.





Read this in entirety:

Matthew 13
1The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

2And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

3And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

12For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

18Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

31Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

32Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

44Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

45Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:

46Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

51Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

52Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

53And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.

54And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?

55Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

57And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

58And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.


dys

[sirgonzo420]

I can only guess. You are one of the smartest guys over here, yet your heart refuses to understand simple matters. Is it because you hate to have a judge over you; or you resent someone sending you to hell. Perhaps you believe punishment is inadequate to your “so-called-crimes”?



It is not because I do not wish to comprehend them. I don't hate the idea of having a judge over me, although I don't like it.

If God designed Man with a propensity to sin, and God also damns Man for his sins, and I am a sinner, then I suppose I deserve Hell by divine decree. Who am I to second-guess God? He must want me to be the way I am. He is the Grand Designer.

All dies have already been cast, in the mind and eye of the God. He cast them.

Nothing can ultimately be outside his Will. Everything goes according to the Plan.





What exactly happened that night? What made you think that you are saved?
How did they do that?



I was in an old fashioned southern baptist bible camp revival type deal.

I was moved to tears by the sermon/drama done one night (which was given in part by my great-uncle, who was the pastor of the church I attended as a youth), and later that night as I laid in bed, I genuinely prayed for salvation.

I felt an immediate sense of relief.

Perhaps I felt "saved" out of an attempt to conform to my peers and my family.

Perhaps I felt "saved" because I realized that I needed no salvation; that everything would work out as it should. If I truly belonged in Hell, I would end up there. If I didn't, I wouldn't. The Universe would unfold as it should, whatever that means.

Probably both of the above, but I don't think my experience is the type that most people are talking about when they speak of their "personal relationship with Jesus".

After a day or two, the euphoria of "salvation" wore off, and I was left with doubt and disenchantment with christianity as it had been presented to me. The dogma reeks of humanity.

I prefer God without any middlemen.

[G2Rad]

All dies have already been cast, in the mind and eye of the God. He cast them.
Nothing can ultimately be outside his Will. Everything goes according to the Plan.


why then did He cry?

[G2Rad]

I was in an old fashioned southern baptist bible camp revival type deal.

I was moved to tears by the sermon/drama done one night (which was given in part by my great-uncle, who was the pastor of the church I attended as a youth), and later that night as I laid in bed, I genuinely prayed for salvation.

I felt an immediate sense of relief.

Perhaps I felt "saved" out of an attempt to conform to my peers and my family.

Perhaps I felt "saved" because I realized that I needed no salvation; that everything would work out as it should. If I truly belonged in Hell, I would end up there. If I didn't, I wouldn't. The Universe would unfold as it should, whatever that means.

Probably both of the above, but I don't think my experience is the type that most people are talking about when they speak of their "personal relationship with Jesus".

After a day or two, the euphoria of "salvation" wore off, and I was left with doubt and disenchantment with christianity as it had been presented to me. The dogma reeks of humanity.

I prefer God without any middlemen.


I understand, man.

I can only speak of myself.

In my case it was different. I did not “feel” anything in my stomach.

No weird senses

1. Reading Rev 1:15 made me realize that the Bible is not a pile of dung as I thought before, but it is the word of God and pure truth.
2. It is written in it that I am saved

The end.

[G2Rad]

All dies have already been cast, in the mind and eye of the God. He cast them.
Nothing can ultimately be outside his Will. Everything goes according to the Plan.


why then did He cry?


IF "Nothing can ultimately be outside his Will" is true, ..... why did he weep in John 11:35?

[sirgonzo420]

All dies have already been cast, in the mind and eye of the God. He cast them.
Nothing can ultimately be outside his Will. Everything goes according to the Plan.


why then did He cry?


IF "Nothing can ultimately be outside his Will" is true, ..... why did he weep in John 11:35?





That's another point of contention for me.... The divinity of Christ. If Jesus were God-Man, then His will should be the same as His Father's, right?

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani <--- Father and Son don't exactly seem to be on the same page there...

If Christ is God and God is unchanging, then why did Christ cry?



How *CAN* something be ultimately outside of the Will/Design/Plan of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator/Designer/Maintainer God?

[bellevuebully]

First, I don't think evolution is necessarily inconsistent with Christianity. Is that what you are implying BB?

Sparky, you and I may differ on this point. I am implying that evolution is not consistant with the biblical account of creation ( I didn't say Christianity, because certainly, Christians can err). I don't see evidence of it in the account, or the implied intent. To me, the account is of God purposefully creating all that is within the creation. I say purposefully in contrast to starting the process and then leaving it up to random chance.

Evolution says we came from primordial soup. Amino acids became micro-organisms, which became organisms in water and then to land and to air. The Genesis account says that when God created, he created the fowl of the air and the fish of the sea, and the beasts of the earth....not something that was going to become them. It also states that God created man, purposefully and with intent.




Second, I don't understand your evolution example. Doesn't evolution mean the creature's weight slowly decreases (over generations) as the hollowing increases (over generations), so that the weight/support ratio remains sustainable?


At some point through this supposed process, wouldn't you have a creature that was basically renderred a little useless? Before the bird could fly (which is it's primary method of self defense), wouldn't you have a bird that couldn't, but had most of the physical traits of a bird? How many thousands (or millions) of years would this creature have to survive before getting off the ground? And if it had developed a method of defending itself without flying, why did it develop wings? What forsight in the genetic code anticipated the ability to account for the laws of aerodynamics? How did the wings morph to something that could create lift without having a trial period? And if a certain species failed this attempt, how did it pass on learned genetic info to another? Which would be easier, bulking up body mass, or trying to overcome gravity?

I would suspect that mathamatically, the odds of a chance mutation developing into something like a wing which could conform to aerodynamic laws would be astounding. And that is only one small example. There are literally countless biological functions that can be examined. Liver cells, toxic secretions, eyeballs, pH regulation, neurological function, transpiration, etc, etc. What is the mathematical odds of all of these occuring successfully by throwing darts in the pitch black?

I am not saying I have the answers. I am just inquiring as to how many have considered the questions.

[Answer2me]

Religion (Christianity) is no more than a form of philosophy. The stories told within in each religion are no more than stories about morality.

Going back to your original question. I think you can have all three. "God" is not in human form, why couldn't he be all things all the time?

Questions to ponder.......

If you are a Christian and the idea of going to heaven didt exsist would you still believe in Jesus? Christianity, all religion gets you something in the end when you die, thats why you believe in it. This is a very basic selfish desire. What ever the answer is it has to be pure of the ego, pure of desire, emotion, in all ways perfect. Religion is far from any of those things, infact it promotes it. The moment you think you have something (belief in Jesus, salvation), that you think a non believer has to have, is the moment you start thinking your better than the next person, subconsciously or consciously.

Does heaven and hell really exist?
This is a fascinating question that can be researched as far back as the Celtic Druids. If you are honest with your self and can except that there is a possibility that they don't, it could change your perspective. What more could life be about, experience gives you perspective, perspective gives you a wider lens to view the world.

[ximmy]

I was gonna post this in the Religion section, but dammit, I'm a General Discussion man!
lol, the mods can move it if they so desire
1. God is omnipresent.
2. God is benevolent.
3. Evil exists.
You can only have two out of three.

There are independent/sovereign "players".
Being less than perfect those "players" make lesser than perfect (evil) decisions.
All that evil, is contained, judged, corrected and mitigated.
So, what is the problem?




Evil isn't really contained if Adam fucked up all Mankind (contaminated them with inherited sin) because he sinned with Eve in what was ultimately an attempt at getting closer to their Creator.


Why should I be damned from birth because Adam sinned?




For sirgonzo420

"For since by man [Adam]came death, by man [Christ]came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor.15:21)

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience [Adam] many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one [Christ] shall many be made righteous." (Rom. 5:18-19)

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Tim.2:4)

[G2Rad]

How *CAN* something be ultimately outside of the Will/Design/Plan of an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent Creator/Designer/Maintainer God?


I can be inside of your car, I can know how to drive and I can be stronger than you are, but still you will be driving.

[bellevuebully]

If you are a Christian and the idea of going to heaven didt exsist would you still believe in Jesus?

This is a seriously loaded question. If there was no one or nowhere to redeem us to, Christ would not have invited us to believe in him.




all religion gets you something in the end when you die, thats why you believe in it.

Respectfully, you are making a statement which intends to speak for all believers. I would say that if this is your perspective for why you would believe, that is your choice. I believe because there is enough evidence in what has been revealed to give me cause to consider what has been declared, and from that, weighing whether it is believable or not.

The message of Jesus Christ is a package deal. You either believe the message or you don't. It's not about getting a cookie, because truthfully, we don't even know what the cookie looks like. It's about accepting the truth.





The moment you think you have something (belief in Jesus, salvation), that you think a non believer has to have, is the moment you start thinking your better than the next person, subconsciously or consciously.

Christ said he came for the sick, for the spiritually wounded. People who think they are better than everyone else are not the ones who need a doctor. Your thesis is contrary to the reality of what is going on in the heart of a believer.

[Horn]

I can be inside of your car, I can know how to drive and I can be stronger than you are, but still you will be driving.


Is it me, or does your avatar resemble an 11?

[G2Rad]

I can be inside of your car, I can know how to drive and I can be stronger than you are, but still you will be driving.


Is it me, or does your avatar resemble an 11?


you mean broken bread?

[Gaillo]

Religion (Christianity) is no more than a form of philosophy. The stories told within in each religion are no more than stories about morality.

Going back to your original question. I think you can have all three. "God" is not in human form, why couldn't he be all things all the time?

Questions to ponder.......

If you are a Christian and the idea of going to heaven didt exsist would you still believe in Jesus? Christianity, all religion gets you something in the end when you die, thats why you believe in it. This is a very basic selfish desire. What ever the answer is it has to be pure of the ego, pure of desire, emotion, in all ways perfect. Religion is far from any of those things, infact it promotes it. The moment you think you have something (belief in Jesus, salvation), that you think a non believer has to have, is the moment you start thinking your better than the next person, subconsciously or consciously.

Does heaven and hell really exist?
This is a fascinating question that can be researched as far back as the Celtic Druids. If you are honest with your self and can except that there is a possibility that they don't, it could change your perspective. What more could life be about, experience gives you perspective, perspective gives you a wider lens to view the world.



Answer2me,
I think you've hit upon a valid and important central point of religions.

Reward or punishment... isn't that the creamy center of most religious belief systems? Most religions teach that one should live a "moral" or "righteous" life, not because such a life brings its own rewards, but rather because you will receive a reward (heaven, paradise, etc.) or punishment (hell, purgatory, etc) afterwards. Tell me... would ANYONE worship a "God" that says this is your life, do what you want, but NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO you will return to the dirt, utterly forgotten, with complete indifference from the deity? Of course they wouldn't! Divine reward/punishment is the engine that makes the whole religious machine go!

There have been LITERALLY thousands of different religious belief systems (with different "rules", Gods, etc.) from the dawn of mankind... each promising rewards and punishments for the actions of their believers. WHY is Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam any different? Because their book SAYS they are different and the one-and-only "truth" (TM)? I don't buy it... I think most religions have some "core" of morality, philosophical truth, etc. - but when they start rolling out the prizes and threats, that's where they lose my attention. I guess I just don't have much use for the "sky bully", regardless of his/her name and particular ritualistic "flavor of the day"! ;)

[mightymanx]

Religion (Christianity) is no more than a form of philosophy. The stories told within in each religion are no more than stories about morality.

Going back to your original question. I think you can have all three. "God" is not in human form, why couldn't he be all things all the time?

Questions to ponder.......

If you are a Christian and the idea of going to heaven didt exsist would you still believe in Jesus? Christianity, all religion gets you something in the end when you die, thats why you believe in it. This is a very basic selfish desire. What ever the answer is it has to be pure of the ego, pure of desire, emotion, in all ways perfect. Religion is far from any of those things, infact it promotes it. The moment you think you have something (belief in Jesus, salvation), that you think a non believer has to have, is the moment you start thinking your better than the next person, subconsciously or consciously.

Does heaven and hell really exist?
This is a fascinating question that can be researched as far back as the Celtic Druids. If you are honest with your self and can except that there is a possibility that they don't, it could change your perspective. What more could life be about, experience gives you perspective, perspective gives you a wider lens to view the world.



Answer2me,
I think you've hit upon a valid and important central point of religions.

Reward or punishment... isn't that the creamy center of most religious belief systems? Most religions teach that one should live a "moral" or "righteous" life, not because such a life brings its own rewards, but rather because you will receive a reward (heaven, paradise, etc.) or punishment (hell, purgatory, etc) afterwards. Tell me... would ANYONE worship a "God" that says this is your life, do what you want, but NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO you will return to the dirt, utterly forgotten, with complete indifference from the deity? Of course they wouldn't! Divine reward/punishment is the engine that makes the whole religious machine go!

There have been LITERALLY thousands of different religious belief systems (with different "rules", Gods, etc.) from the dawn of mankind... each promising rewards and punishments for the actions of their believers. WHY is Christianity, or Judaism, or Islam any different? Because their book SAYS they are different and the one-and-only "truth" (TM)? I don't buy it... I think most religions have some "core" of morality, philosophical truth, etc. - but when they start rolling out the prizes and threats, that's where they lose my attention. I guess I just don't have much use for the "sky bully", regardless of his/her name and particular ritualistic "flavor of the day"! ;)


Exactly it is a control system just like a government it is the oldest form do _____or you will suffer an eternity of pain do what I tell you and receive 72 virgins angles on clouds what ever the flavor. Now the funny part to me is every single religion professes that they are the one true religion and all the others are evil and are going to damnation. ???


*(edit because I cant see what I type with this dumb program till after I post)

[bellevuebully]

Divine reward/punishment is the engine that makes the whole religious machine go!



That is the perspective that you have Gaillo. Fair enough. I wish you could see that that is not necessarily so.

Do you treat Hennypenny well primarily because of the motivation of punishment/reward? Or do you do it because you love her and you know that she loves you? Although reward and punishment is a fact of life and a fact of consequence of choices, it is not the primary motivating factor behind a good relationship.

I think you are unfairly (mostly to yourself) discounting that there could be other dynamics involved. No slight intended. These are all personal choices and I understand we all differ greatly in our perception of them.

[G2Rad]

this thread is one more proof that applying logic to people's religions is folly

especially for fake religions you people espoused to

The only true religion is Judaism, all the rest are fake and self-deceptions.

Faith of the Bible is the only way for a man to come out from religions.

[Answer2me]

this thread is one more proof that applying logic to people's religions is folly

especially for fake religions you people espoused to

The only true religion is Judaism, all the rest are fake and self-deceptions.

Faith of the Bible is the only way for a man to come out from religions.


This comment is what I was trying to get at. Once a person believes that he has the only answer and everyone else should except or die, than this person is putting himself on a peddastool above everyone else. This is not logic it's truth. Once you have put yourself in a position to "be on top" than you open up yourself to a flood of emotions, the ego kicks in and your desire to win that person over to Christ consume you. Theses are all part of being religious, and if evil exists than these sensations are the basis for it, ego, desire.

A well rounded or spiritual person is in control of these emotions and stays away from there causes. He stays away from them because of experience not because he read them in a book.

[Horn]

Reward or punishment... isn't that the creamy center of most religious belief systems? Most religions teach that one should live a "moral" or "righteous" life, not because such a life brings its own rewards, but rather because you will receive a reward (heaven, paradise, etc.) or punishment (hell, purgatory, etc) afterwards

Western Religions.

[mightymanx]

this thread is one more proof that applying logic to people's religions is folly

especially for fake religions you people espoused to

The only true religion is Judaism, all the rest are fake and self-deceptions.

Faith of the Bible is the only way for a man to come out from religions.


Thank you for proving my point.

[dys]

Why do I believe?
I believe because I've lived it.

Why don't others believe? Because of Satan.

....He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:44

dys

[Answer2me]

Why do I believe?
I believe because I've lived it.

Why don't others believe? Because of Satan.

....He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:44

dys


Do you not think others have "lived it" and come to a different conclusion?

[Horn]

Righteous create the wicked, and vice verse.

I will be party to neither.

The answers on how to live a life aren't made to be duplicated through righteousness, or enforced through damnation.

If the end sum were found, then the were be no point in continuing.

And everyone on the planet is very far away from end sum.

[Sparky]

How many ways can you write, "Can God make a rock so big He can't move it?"

This old paradox got me to think about the premise of the OP.

Who says God is omnipresent? Does the bible tell us that? Does it describe him as "benevolent? Does that mean he is "all-benevolent"? And who says he is omnipotent, thus creating the "big rock" paradox? How about omniscient? How many of these presumptions about God's traits are actually based in scripture?

This led me to a great little essay on the subject. Take a look:

http://www.cogwriter.com/god-omnipotent-omniscient-omnipresent.htm

[G2Rad]

How many ways can you write, "Can God make a rock so big He can't move it?"

This old paradox got me to think about the premise of the OP.


I took a look on that essay.

that paradox truly is old, to the point of being obsolete

Satan broke his teeth on it.
The idea was to catch God in a logical bomb.
God cannot lie; God cannot change his word, what is "Almighty" about that?

Yet, the attempt to exploit that "weakness" exploded into his face.

[bellevuebully]

Who says God is omnipresent? Does the bible tell us that?

I think this brings up another important question. If it is in the bible, would you believe it? Not posing this question directly to you Sparky. Moreso as a broad general question to believers on this board. The reason I think it is a relevant question is because I see a lot of tendancy for many to pick and chose what they find in scripture while discounting major portions which have been considereded historically sound doctrine and theology.

[dys]

Why do I believe?
I believe because I've lived it.

Why don't others believe? Because of Satan.

....He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:44

dys


Do you not think others have "lived it" and come to a different conclusion?


No Sir, I do not think that. I know my father and He does not lie.

dys

[G2Rad]

If it is in the bible, would you believe it?

I will.

Before I became a Christian I had faith in my own intellectual faculties above all, (I thought of myself "I am such a smart guy" :sun:)

The Bible turned out be much more superior construction in comparison to any book I've encountered and much higher over my capacities.

Therefore I accumulated huge respect towards it.

To the point, that now if it says so, I would trust it above my own judgement.

[Sparky]

Who says God is omnipresent? Does the bible tell us that?

I think this brings up another important question. If it is in the bible, would you believe it? Not posing this question directly to you Sparky. Moreso as a broad general question to believers on this board. The reason I think it is a relevant question is because I see a lot of tendancy for many to pick and chose what they find in scripture while discounting major portions which have been considereded historically sound doctrine and theology.


My answer is yes, but subject to interpretation (exegesis, really) and context.

For instance, I'm not sure what to do with some of it (like Leviticus); I "believe" it, but struggle with the application.

[Answer2me]

Why do I believe?
I believe because I've lived it.

Why don't others believe? Because of Satan.

....He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:44

dys


Do you not think others have "lived it" and come to a different conclusion?


No Sir, I do not think that. I know my father and He does not lie.

dys


So you don't believe that other people who have lived a life full of their own experiences, who have come to a different conclusion about religion philosophy than you, are simple wrong because they don't believe what you do????????

I would say to you, travel the world see first hand different cultures, experience life for what it is, not from your churchs point of view, or through mission trips, then we can discuss.

Is not the point of this forum to broden your perspective? Why do post if only to defend your point of view? If you can't open yourself to the fact that you could be wrong than you have nothing to learn, you would be perfect and would have know use for Antyones perspective.

[bellevuebully]

Who says God is omnipresent? Does the bible tell us that?

I think this brings up another important question. If it is in the bible, would you believe it? Not posing this question directly to you Sparky. Moreso as a broad general question to believers on this board. The reason I think it is a relevant question is because I see a lot of tendancy for many to pick and chose what they find in scripture while discounting major portions which have been considereded historically sound doctrine and theology.



For instance, I'm not sure what to do with some of it (like Leviticus); I "believe" it, but struggle with the application.


I do understand what you are saying. I think a lot of those issues work themselves through neatly when we look at the scripture as a whole, rather than trying to apply every detail to our lives. The ot was a forshadowing of the nt, full of type/antitype parallels. Much of the scriptures also applies to Israel, not the gentile believer, although the principles used in dealing with Israels belief/unbelief illustrate our own relationship with Jesus Christ. It's also a testimony to God's sovereignty and ability to work through man's unfaithfulness (or more rightly man's faithlessness), to achieve his better purpose. Here is a saying that I believe to be quite accurate....the ot is the nt concealed, the nt is the ot revealed.

[bellevuebully]

who have come to a different conclusion about religion philosophy than you, are simple wrong because they don't believe what you do????????



Aren't you kind of applying the same logic?

Or are you saying that everyone is right? Because we certainly have all come to different conclusions?

So either you are applying the same logic which you are criticizing dys of and saying that you have a belief that is right and therefore his is wrong, or you are saying you don't have the answer and don't know what is right, which would not put you in a position to say that dys is wrong.

[bellevuebully]

Once a person believes that he has the only answer and everyone else should except or die

I'd like to see you back up this statement with where G2rad proposed this. Maybe if you took a less dramatic viewpoint, you would see that most of the rest of the same post is also inaccurate.

[sirgonzo420]

If it is in the bible, would you believe it?

I will.

Before I became a Christian I had faith in my own intellectual faculties above all, (I thought of myself "I am such a smart guy" :sun:)

The Bible turned out be much more superior construction in comparison to any book I've encountered and much higher over my capacities.

Therefore I accumulated huge respect towards it.

To the point, that now if it says so, I would trust it above my own judgement.



That reminds me of the story of Abraham and Isaac....

When I was a little kid, I always wondered why God would tell Abraham to kill his son Isaac.... and then send an angel to intervene when Abraham tried to do as he was commanded.

God knew in advance that Abraham would do it if He asked him to, but God asked him to anyway.

Kinda like how God fucked with Job.

He knows how everything will turn out, since ultimately He designed it, yet He still plays with Man like his toy.

http://voiceofthesolidrock.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/abraham-and-isaac-zoom.jpg

[G2Rad]

He still plays with Man


So do I
I love playing with my child

[wrs]

So do I
I love playing with my child

Not like God played with Job. If you do, CPS would take your kid from you. Society doesn't permit us to do to one another the kinds of crap Jehovah is depicted as doing to his people in the OT. Yet Jehovah is held to be righteous by the OT and people that accept it's validity. Very strange dichotomy there. The things Jehovah says are bad for his people are good for him.

[dys]

So do I
I love playing with my child

Not like God played with Job. If you do, CPS would take your kid from you. Society doesn't permit us to do to one another the kinds of crap Jehovah is depicted as doing to his people in the OT. Yet Jehovah is held to be righteous by the OT and people that accept it's validity. Very strange dichotomy there. The things Jehovah says are bad for his people are good for him.


Who is Jehovah? That's not the name as far as I know of the one true God. That is, the Father of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the God of Jacob, the God of Abraham, etc.

dys

[sirgonzo420]

So do I
I love playing with my child

Not like God played with Job. If you do, CPS would take your kid from you. Society doesn't permit us to do to one another the kinds of crap Jehovah is depicted as doing to his people in the OT. Yet Jehovah is held to be righteous by the OT and people that accept it's validity. Very strange dichotomy there. The things Jehovah says are bad for his people are good for him.


Who is Jehovah? That's not the name as far as I know of the one true God. That is, the Father of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, the God of Jacob, the God of Abraham, etc.

dys


יהוה, YHWH, YHVH, Yahweh, Yahveh, Jehovah, Jah, I AM THAT I AM, Adonai, Elohim, God - I thought it was obvious that wrs was talking about the "God of the bible".

[G2Rad]

So do I
I love playing with my child

Not like God played with Job. If you do, CPS would take your kid from you. Society doesn't permit us to do to one another the kinds of crap Jehovah is depicted as doing to his people in the OT. Yet Jehovah is held to be righteous by the OT and people that accept it's validity. Very strange dichotomy there. The things Jehovah says are bad for his people are good for him.


I personally do not ascribe to "good Satan-evil Jesus" theory.

but I know who do.

wrs, do happen to be free mason?

[G2Rad]

Kinda like how God fucked with Job.
He knows how everything will turn out, since ultimately He designed it, yet He still plays with Man like his toy.

How do you feel about other side?
Who is Satan in your worldview?
Is he a hero or is he a villain?

[sirgonzo420]

Kinda like how God fucked with Job.
He knows how everything will turn out, since ultimately He designed it, yet He still plays with Man like his toy.

How do you feel about other side?
Who is Satan in your worldview?
Is he a hero or is he a villain?


God created Satan.

A coin has two sides.

Like in the jungle; a good meal for one is a bad day for another.


In my worldview, God is the all-encompassing, ineffable net of "Isness" that covers everything. Nothing can go against God's Will.

Que sera, sera.

[wrs]

wrs, do happen to be free mason?

Nope

[dys]

In my worldview, God is the all-encompassing, ineffable net of "Isness" that covers everything. Nothing can go against God's Will.

Que sera, sera.


Will and control are not the same thing, don't comingle them.

dys

[Santa]

In my worldview, God is the all-encompassing, ineffable net of "Isness" that covers everything. Nothing can go against God's Will.

Que sera, sera.


Will and control are not the same thing, don't comingle them.

dys


This is an interesting comment.

How would will be separated from control?

Exerting ones will over others defines the meaning of control, doesn't it?

What if one exerted their will to "avoid" control over others?

Would this constitute weakness or strength?

[dys]

This is an interesting comment.

How would will be separated from control?

Exerting ones will over others defines the meaning of control, doesn't it?

What if one exerted their will to "avoid" control over others?

Would this constitute weakness or strength?



With control comes the ability to choose to assert will or to choose to NOT assert will. Analogy: I own a company, I pay the bills, buy the equipment, hire the workers. I tell worker 'Joan', do this project and I'd prefer you do it this way. You have 4 months to complete it. She does it her way and the project is poorly done, I fire her eventually...but probably not right away. Also, I always reserve the right to disband the company, sell my equipment, and close up shop. I may not choose to exercise that right, but if it weren't for me the company wouldn't exist.

dys