View Full Version : So what's the deal with bitcoins?
sirgonzo420
30th May 2011, 03:55 PM
Well, what's the story?
What sayeth GSUS?
Shami-Amourae
30th May 2011, 04:11 PM
I'm all for it at this point. One of my business rivals (who is a friend of mine ironically) has been mining coins successfully, but he's not rich enough to do serious mining like the big players do, since he doesn't have a killer graphics card setup to do serious mining. We both have been thinking of starting BitCoin outlets in the virtual world we work in, but we are afraid of doing it since it would challenge the current virtual currency we deal with (which is centrally controlled by the administrators of the virtual world where our businesses are.)
Max Keiser is behind it. Peter Schiff is against it. I think it's something more of us from younger generations latch onto, while older generations don't support it since they aren't as trustworthy of technology as those of us who grew during the Internet revolution. I am very confident in the technology since I do programming for a living. The people behind it have the same frame of mind as me, so I have a lot of faith in it, but its success is mounted on social acceptance. We don't know if enough people will trust this.
------
Watch this, starting at 7:20. Max Keiser posted this on his website.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwNfBgwbqng&t=7m20s
Bigjon
30th May 2011, 04:40 PM
One problem I see is who trusts something that takes a math genius to understand?
The originators of this are using 2 key encription based on RSA encryption which relies on the difficulty in finding prime numbers. McCanney has cracked the prime number problem and our world of math geniuses is doing it's best to ignore it. I wonder if any of these kids know that with McCanney's algorithm and a computer, prime numbers can be generated and put in a table?
Somehow I smell a rat.
Horn
30th May 2011, 05:24 PM
Somehow I smell a rat.
When it comes to financial instruments is there anyway possible to avoid the odor?
I can't see any less harm in receiving one's life's blood in dollars.
Now if it turns the rage amongst the young & indoctrinated, and they are all made rich overnight.
Then there's reason to worry, but by then it will be too late.
sirgonzo420
30th May 2011, 08:16 PM
I'm all for it at this point. One of my business rivals (who is a friend of mine ironically) has been mining coins successfully, but he's not rich enough to do serious mining like the big players do, since he doesn't have a killer graphics card setup to do serious mining. We both have been thinking of starting BitCoin outlets in the virtual world we work in, but we are afraid of doing it since it would challenge the current virtual currency we deal with (which is centrally controlled by the administrators of the virtual world where our businesses are.)
Max Keiser is behind it. Peter Schiff is against it. I think it's something more of us from younger generations latch onto, while older generations don't support it since they aren't as trustworthy of technology as those of us who grew during the Internet revolution. I am very confident in the technology since I do programming for a living. The people behind it have the same frame of mind as me, so I have a lot of faith in it, but its success is mounted on social acceptance. We don't know if enough people will trust this.
------
Watch this, starting at 7:20. Max Keiser posted this on his website.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwNfBgwbqng&t=7m20s
I'm not really able to mine for them... how are bitcoins otherwise obtained?
I watched a bit of that video, and afterwards was reading on a bitcoin forum and saw that one of the fellows in the video (Gavin) has a meeting with the CIA in June.
dun dun DUN!!
mightymanx
30th May 2011, 08:20 PM
Can someone dumb it down for me with out all the durka durka computer speak?
Is this some facebook version of Kitco's pool crap?
Shami-Amourae
30th May 2011, 08:37 PM
Can someone dumb it down for me with out all the durka durka computer speak?
Is this some facebook version of Kitco's pool crap?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um63OQz3bjo
Shami-Amourae
30th May 2011, 08:40 PM
I'm not really able to mine for them... how are bitcoins otherwise obtained?
I watched a bit of that video, and afterwards was reading on a bitcoin forum and saw that one of the fellows in the video (Gavin) has a meeting with the CIA in June.
dun dun DUN!!
All were done by mining. The more BitCoins in existence, the more difficult it gets to find new ones (like real life mining). The system collectively determines this by the collective network. The people who got into this early are already much wealthier since they didn't need much computer power to get coins, now it requires super computers to even remotely make a profit. You can find videos of people who make these rigs all over YouTube.
Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5f_e4P6gMA
Bigjon
30th May 2011, 09:15 PM
can you state the mathematical algorithm that generates a bitcoin?
I have not seen the basis for a bitcoin, I have seen the basis for passing a bit coin and it's proof that it is original.
Somehow the basis is lacking from the definition.
sirgonzo420
30th May 2011, 09:25 PM
All were done by mining. The more BitCoins in existence, the more difficult it gets to find new ones (like real life mining). The system collectively determines this by the collective network. The people who got into this early are already much wealthier since they didn't need much computer power to get coins, now it requires super computers to even remotely make a profit. You can find videos of people who make these rigs all over YouTube.
Example:
Damn. That's intense.
I was thinking more along the lines of buying $10 worth (perhaps with paypal?) or so just for shits and giggles.
Is there an easy way for someone who can't mine to buy a small amount of $ worth of bitcoins?
EDIT: I saw a thread you started on this topic in a subforum. You said you paid about $6 per bitcoin. Since bitcoins are now going for $8-$9 each, you could "sell" them to someone via some other currency and make a $2-$3 profit per bitcoin, right?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this, lol.
mightymanx
30th May 2011, 09:44 PM
Pretty neat like an electronic version fo the Free Lakota bank.
I don't understand how I can make bitcoins though ?
Buddha
30th May 2011, 09:44 PM
Why are they paying me very small amounts of a newly created digital currency to run my graphics card hot?
Shami-Amourae
30th May 2011, 11:38 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of buying $10 worth (perhaps with paypal?) or so just for shits and giggles.
Is there an easy way for someone who can't mine to buy a small amount of $ worth of bitcoins?
EDIT: I saw a thread you started on this topic in a subforum. You said you paid about $6 per bitcoin. Since bitcoins are now going for $8-$9 each, you could "sell" them to someone via some other currency and make a $2-$3 profit per bitcoin, right?
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this, lol.
Right. I bought about $100 worth of BitCoins a little over 2 weeks ago and my BitCoins are now worth $128.61. The market is INSANELY volatile too at this point so you see huge swings up to about 33% from what I've seen lately. The trend definitely seems up despite the intense volatility.
It's been going up faster than silver at the rate it has. I think if it is adopted eventually by the mainstream those who bought in early will see their investments appreciate significantly. BTW, you can't do it through PayPal. Most mainstream financials already block BitCoin since they understand the threat is poses to them. So you have to go through a middleman. I chose a PayPal alternative called Dwolla and it worked out quite well with no issue.
Mouse
31st May 2011, 12:21 AM
So what do I buy virtual stuff with this virtual money? Like extra lives and some fancy new weapons system that slays dragons?
How do you process real transactions with encrypted fake money?
Buddha
31st May 2011, 12:30 AM
You buy real things with it
http://blog.bitcoinwatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/BTCUSD20110512hourlylog.png
Olmstein
31st May 2011, 12:43 AM
What are bitcoins worth when TSHTF and the internet as we know it goes away?
Are people still using World of Warcraft virtual gold?
Shami-Amourae
31st May 2011, 01:06 AM
What are bitcoins worth when TSHTF and the internet as we know it goes away?
For example I have my BitCoin wallet encrypted/password protected on the Internet website. No one but me knows where it is. So incase I want to flee the country, I may not be able to carry out my gold and silver, but if I get to another country and have an Internet connection I can get my money with that wallet file. I also have my BitCoin wallet encrypted/password protected on a flashdrive, so as long as other people have computers/networks, I can load my wallet onto their computer and transfer the BitCoins over.
Gaillo
31st May 2011, 01:17 AM
What are bitcoins worth when TSHTF and the internet as we know it goes away?
For example I have my BitCoin wallet encrypted/password protected on the Internet website. No one but me knows where it is. So incase I want to flee the country, I may not be able to carry out my gold and silver, but if I get to another country and have an Internet connection I can get my money with that wallet file. I also have my BitCoin wallet encrypted/password protected on a flashdrive, so as long as other people have computers/networks, I can load my wallet onto their computer and transfer the BitCoins over.
How do you convert it... to let's say gold... or barring that, to whatever fiat paper BS passes as "currency" in your new country once you get there?
Hatha Sunahara
31st May 2011, 01:17 AM
Could this be a new incarnation of a Ponzi scheme?
Hatha
Gaillo
31st May 2011, 01:21 AM
Could this be a new incarnation of a Ponzi scheme?
Hatha
ANYTHING passing for money that isn't "physical" (gold, silver, ammo, food, etc.) most likely IS a Ponzi scheme. As Ponce (quite correctly) says: "If you don't hold it, you don't own it". It goes deeper than that... some things are more worth "owning" than others! ;D
Shami-Amourae
31st May 2011, 01:32 AM
@Converting to foreign currencies:
There's exchanges in many countries. So like in the United States the most popular is Mt Gox. I haven't researched the other exchanges much since I'm still new to this, (I don't like being an apologist but I guess I've done the most research into this issue.)
This website should help:
http://www.bitcoinwatch.com/
It has a bunch of exchanges worldwide. You can go to any of these exchanges and cash in/out anytime you want via the currency they accept.
Here's some examples:
https://bitmarket.eu/
(European Union countries)
https://bitomat.pl/
(Poland)
They are spreading to various countries already, but again this is a new phenomenon. I can only guess what will happen.
_______________________________
@Ponzi scheme:
Most of the real apologists will say it's not, but I sort of think it is at this stage. Right now people treat it as a commodity that appreciates in value over time like we expect currently with gold/silver. This is a new paradigm on currency in general so it needs to gain enough collective faith with the planet, and if it gets to this point, it will be able to stand on its own. That's why I'm only doing small amounts of $$$ since I don't trust it totally myself, but I definitely want BitCoin it to be successful since I believe it can be a tool to destroy the banking system like a similar technology called Bit Torrent wiped out the record industry. There's definitely risk, but I think the possible rewards might be greater.
_______________________________
@Gold/silver conversion:
I haven't seen any silver/gold exchanges yet, but the BitCoin forums are in a buzz for one. I think it would a possible business opportunity, but no one wants to part with their silver I guess.
_______________________________
@Holding physical:
Again, I hold a copy of my BitCoin wallet on a flashdrive, and various locations on the Internet. It's not held by a bank, it's held by me. The difference is its like holding FRN paper notes, it's something I can hold, but its value dies if faith in the currency dies. That's why I will continue to hold physical gold/silver.
Neuro
31st May 2011, 07:27 AM
First time I hear about this, sounds like the perfect bubble material to me. First no one can value what a bitcoin is worth, it has an artificial limited supply... Growing demand... People may mortgage their homes to get an extraordinary return on bitcoins... Are there any bitcoin ETF's yet? Futures and options?
chad
31st May 2011, 08:29 AM
eventually the founders will get greedy and change the algo to create more coins.
Shami-Amourae
31st May 2011, 09:49 AM
eventually the founders will get greedy and change the algo to create more coins.
They can't. There is NO central control. All the decisions are already built into the network system, which regulates itself based on the programming. It cannot be altered, and if it is the network is programmed to reject them. All the programming is open sourced. Anyone can read it for themselves.
If they could, wouldn't Bit-Torrent be shut down? No. They can't. Once its done and released to the public, it can't be stopped unless pretty much every single computer on the planet is destroyed.
I copy and pasted some of the code so you could see I'm not joking. There's THOUSANDS of lines so I obviously can't put the whole code on this thread, but just so you know I'm not kidding:
// Copyright (c) 2009-2010 Satoshi Nakamoto
// Distributed under the MIT/X11 software license, see the accompanying
// file license.txt or http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php.
#include "headers.h"
#include "cryptopp/sha.h"
//
// Global state
//
CCriticalSection cs_main;
map<uint256, CTransaction> mapTransactions;
CCriticalSection cs_mapTransactions;
unsigned int nTransactionsUpdated = 0;
map<COutPoint, CInPoint> mapNextTx;
map<uint256, CBlockIndex*> mapBlockIndex;
uint256 hashGenesisBlock("0x000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c1 72b3f1b60a8ce26f");
CBigNum bnProofOfWorkLimit(~uint256(0) >> 32);
CBlockIndex* pindexGenesisBlock = NULL;
int nBestHeight = -1;
CBigNum bnBestChainWork = 0;
CBigNum bnBestInvalidWork = 0;
uint256 hashBestChain = 0;
CBlockIndex* pindexBest = NULL;
int64 nTimeBestReceived = 0;
map<uint256, CBlock*> mapOrphanBlocks;
multimap<uint256, CBlock*> mapOrphanBlocksByPrev;
map<uint256, CDataStream*> mapOrphanTransactions;
multimap<uint256, CDataStream*> mapOrphanTransactionsByPrev;
map<uint256, CWalletTx> mapWallet;
vector<uint256> vWalletUpdated;
CCriticalSection cs_mapWallet;
map<vector<unsigned char>, CPrivKey> mapKeys;
map<uint160, vector<unsigned char> > mapPubKeys;
CCriticalSection cs_mapKeys;
CKey keyUser;
map<uint256, int> mapRequestCount;
CCriticalSection cs_mapRequestCount;
map<string, string> mapAddressBook;
CCriticalSection cs_mapAddressBook;
vector<unsigned char> vchDefaultKey;
double dHashesPerSec;
int64 nHPSTimerStart;
// Settings
int fGenerateBitcoins = false;
int64 nTransactionFee = 0;
CAddress addrIncoming;
int fLimitProcessors = false;
int nLimitProcessors = 1;
int fMinimizeToTray = true;
int fMinimizeOnClose = true;
#ifdef USE_UPNP
#if USE_UPNP
int fUseUPnP = true;
#else
int fUseUPnP = false;
#endif
#endif
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// mapKeys
//
bool AddKey(const CKey& key)
{
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapKeys)
{
mapKeys[key.GetPubKey()] = key.GetPrivKey();
mapPubKeys[Hash160(key.GetPubKey())] = key.GetPubKey();
}
return CWalletDB().WriteKey(key.GetPubKey(), key.GetPrivKey());
}
vector<unsigned char> GenerateNewKey()
{
RandAddSeedPerfmon();
CKey key;
key.MakeNewKey();
if (!AddKey(key))
throw runtime_error("GenerateNewKey() : AddKey failed");
return key.GetPubKey();
}
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// mapWallet
//
bool AddToWallet(const CWalletTx& wtxIn)
{
uint256 hash = wtxIn.GetHash();
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
// Inserts only if not already there, returns tx inserted or tx found
pair<map<uint256, CWalletTx>::iterator, bool> ret = mapWallet.insert(make_pair(hash, wtxIn));
CWalletTx& wtx = (*ret.first).second;
bool fInsertedNew = ret.second;
if (fInsertedNew)
wtx.nTimeReceived = GetAdjustedTime();
bool fUpdated = false;
if (!fInsertedNew)
{
// Merge
if (wtxIn.hashBlock != 0 && wtxIn.hashBlock != wtx.hashBlock)
{
wtx.hashBlock = wtxIn.hashBlock;
fUpdated = true;
}
if (wtxIn.nIndex != -1 && (wtxIn.vMerkleBranch != wtx.vMerkleBranch || wtxIn.nIndex != wtx.nIndex))
{
wtx.vMerkleBranch = wtxIn.vMerkleBranch;
wtx.nIndex = wtxIn.nIndex;
fUpdated = true;
}
if (wtxIn.fFromMe && wtxIn.fFromMe != wtx.fFromMe)
{
wtx.fFromMe = wtxIn.fFromMe;
fUpdated = true;
}
fUpdated |= wtx.UpdateSpent(wtxIn.vfSpent);
}
//// debug print
printf("AddToWallet %s %s%s\n", wtxIn.GetHash().ToString().substr(0,10).c_str(), (fInsertedNew ? "new" : ""), (fUpdated ? "update" : ""));
// Write to disk
if (fInsertedNew || fUpdated)
if (!wtx.WriteToDisk())
return false;
// If default receiving address gets used, replace it with a new one
CScript scriptDefaultKey;
scriptDefaultKey.SetBitcoinAddress(vchDefaultKey);
foreach(const CTxOut& txout, wtx.vout)
{
if (txout.scriptPubKey == scriptDefaultKey)
{
CWalletDB walletdb;
vchDefaultKey = GetKeyFromKeyPool();
walletdb.WriteDefaultKey(vchDefaultKey);
walletdb.WriteName(PubKeyToAddress(vchDefaultKey), "");
}
}
// Notify UI
vWalletUpdated.push_back(hash);
}
// Refresh UI
MainFrameRepaint();
return true;
}
bool AddToWalletIfInvolvingMe(const CTransaction& tx, const CBlock* pblock, bool fUpdate = false)
{
uint256 hash = tx.GetHash();
bool fExisted = mapWallet.count(hash);
if (fExisted && !fUpdate) return false;
if (fExisted || tx.IsMine() || tx.IsFromMe())
{
CWalletTx wtx(tx);
// Get merkle branch if transaction was found in a block
if (pblock)
wtx.SetMerkleBranch(pblock);
return AddToWallet(wtx);
}
return false;
}
bool EraseFromWallet(uint256 hash)
{
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
if (mapWallet.erase(hash))
CWalletDB().EraseTx(hash);
}
return true;
}
void WalletUpdateSpent(const COutPoint& prevout)
{
// Anytime a signature is successfully verified, it's proof the outpoint is spent.
// Update the wallet spent flag if it doesn't know due to wallet.dat being
// restored from backup or the user making copies of wallet.dat.
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
map<uint256, CWalletTx>::iterator mi = mapWallet.find(prevout.hash);
if (mi != mapWallet.end())
{
CWalletTx& wtx = (*mi).second;
if (!wtx.IsSpent(prevout.n) && wtx.vout[prevout.n].IsMine())
{
printf("WalletUpdateSpent found spent coin %sbc %s\n", FormatMoney(wtx.GetCredit()).c_str(), wtx.GetHash().ToString().c_str());
wtx.MarkSpent(prevout.n);
wtx.WriteToDisk();
vWalletUpdated.push_back(prevout.hash);
}
}
}
}
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// mapOrphanTransactions
//
void AddOrphanTx(const CDataStream& vMsg)
{
CTransaction tx;
CDataStream(vMsg) >> tx;
uint256 hash = tx.GetHash();
if (mapOrphanTransactions.count(hash))
return;
CDataStream* pvMsg = mapOrphanTransactions[hash] = new CDataStream(vMsg);
foreach(const CTxIn& txin, tx.vin)
mapOrphanTransactionsByPrev.insert(make_pair(txin. prevout.hash, pvMsg));
}
void EraseOrphanTx(uint256 hash)
{
if (!mapOrphanTransactions.count(hash))
return;
const CDataStream* pvMsg = mapOrphanTransactions[hash];
CTransaction tx;
CDataStream(*pvMsg) >> tx;
foreach(const CTxIn& txin, tx.vin)
{
for (multimap<uint256, CDataStream*>::iterator mi = mapOrphanTransactionsByPrev.lower_bound(txin.prevo ut.hash);
mi != mapOrphanTransactionsByPrev.upper_bound(txin.prevo ut.hash);)
{
if ((*mi).second == pvMsg)
mapOrphanTransactionsByPrev.erase(mi++);
else
mi++;
}
}
delete pvMsg;
mapOrphanTransactions.erase(hash);
}
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// CTransaction and CTxIndex
//
bool CTransaction::ReadFromDisk(CTxDB& txdb, COutPoint prevout, CTxIndex& txindexRet)
{
SetNull();
if (!txdb.ReadTxIndex(prevout.hash, txindexRet))
return false;
if (!ReadFromDisk(txindexRet.pos))
return false;
if (prevout.n >= vout.size())
{
SetNull();
return false;
}
return true;
}
bool CTransaction::ReadFromDisk(CTxDB& txdb, COutPoint prevout)
{
CTxIndex txindex;
return ReadFromDisk(txdb, prevout, txindex);
}
bool CTransaction::ReadFromDisk(COutPoint prevout)
{
CTxDB txdb("r");
CTxIndex txindex;
return ReadFromDisk(txdb, prevout, txindex);
}
bool CTxIn::IsMine() const
{
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
map<uint256, CWalletTx>::iterator mi = mapWallet.find(prevout.hash);
if (mi != mapWallet.end())
{
const CWalletTx& prev = (*mi).second;
if (prevout.n < prev.vout.size())
if (prev.vout[prevout.n].IsMine())
return true;
}
}
return false;
}
int64 CTxIn::GetDebit() const
{
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
map<uint256, CWalletTx>::iterator mi = mapWallet.find(prevout.hash);
if (mi != mapWallet.end())
{
const CWalletTx& prev = (*mi).second;
if (prevout.n < prev.vout.size())
if (prev.vout[prevout.n].IsMine())
return prev.vout[prevout.n].nValue;
}
}
return 0;
}
int64 CWalletTx::GetTxTime() const
{
if (!fTimeReceivedIsTxTime && hashBlock != 0)
{
// If we did not receive the transaction directly, we rely on the block's
// time to figure out when it happened. We use the median over a range
// of blocks to try to filter out inaccurate block times.
map<uint256, CBlockIndex*>::iterator mi = mapBlockIndex.find(hashBlock);
if (mi != mapBlockIndex.end())
{
CBlockIndex* pindex = (*mi).second;
if (pindex)
return pindex->GetMedianTime();
}
}
return nTimeReceived;
}
int CWalletTx::GetRequestCount() const
{
// Returns -1 if it wasn't being tracked
int nRequests = -1;
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapRequestCount)
{
if (IsCoinBase())
{
// Generated block
if (hashBlock != 0)
{
map<uint256, int>::iterator mi = mapRequestCount.find(hashBlock);
if (mi != mapRequestCount.end())
nRequests = (*mi).second;
}
}
else
{
// Did anyone request this transaction?
map<uint256, int>::iterator mi = mapRequestCount.find(GetHash());
if (mi != mapRequestCount.end())
{
nRequests = (*mi).second;
// How about the block it's in?
if (nRequests == 0 && hashBlock != 0)
{
map<uint256, int>::iterator mi = mapRequestCount.find(hashBlock);
if (mi != mapRequestCount.end())
nRequests = (*mi).second;
else
nRequests = 1; // If it's in someone else's block it must have got out
}
}
}
}
return nRequests;
}
void CWalletTx::GetAmounts(int64& nGeneratedImmature, int64& nGeneratedMature, list<pair<string, int64> >& listReceived,
list<pair<string, int64> >& listSent, int64& nFee, string& strSentAccount) const
{
nGeneratedImmature = nGeneratedMature = nFee = 0;
listReceived.clear();
listSent.clear();
strSentAccount = strFromAccount;
if (IsCoinBase())
{
if (GetBlocksToMaturity() > 0)
nGeneratedImmature = CTransaction::GetCredit();
else
nGeneratedMature = GetCredit();
return;
}
// Compute fee:
int64 nDebit = GetDebit();
if (nDebit > 0) // debit>0 means we signed/sent this transaction
{
int64 nValueOut = GetValueOut();
nFee = nDebit - nValueOut;
}
// Sent/received. Standard client will never generate a send-to-multiple-recipients,
// but non-standard clients might (so return a list of address/amount pairs)
foreach(const CTxOut& txout, vout)
{
string address;
uint160 hash160;
vector<unsigned char> vchPubKey;
if (ExtractHash160(txout.scriptPubKey, hash160))
address = Hash160ToAddress(hash160);
else if (ExtractPubKey(txout.scriptPubKey, false, vchPubKey))
address = PubKeyToAddress(vchPubKey);
else
{
printf("CWalletTx::GetAmounts: Unknown transaction type found, txid %s\n",
this->GetHash().ToString().c_str());
address = " unknown ";
}
// Don't report 'change' txouts
if (nDebit > 0 && txout.IsChange())
continue;
if (nDebit > 0)
listSent.push_back(make_pair(address, txout.nValue));
if (txout.IsMine())
listReceived.push_back(make_pair(address, txout.nValue));
}
}
void CWalletTx::GetAccountAmounts(const string& strAccount, int64& nGenerated, int64& nReceived,
int64& nSent, int64& nFee) const
{
nGenerated = nReceived = nSent = nFee = 0;
int64 allGeneratedImmature, allGeneratedMature, allFee;
allGeneratedImmature = allGeneratedMature = allFee = 0;
string strSentAccount;
list<pair<string, int64> > listReceived;
list<pair<string, int64> > listSent;
GetAmounts(allGeneratedImmature, allGeneratedMature, listReceived, listSent, allFee, strSentAccount);
if (strAccount == "")
nGenerated = allGeneratedMature;
if (strAccount == strSentAccount)
{
foreach(const PAIRTYPE(string,int64)& s, listSent)
nSent += s.second;
nFee = allFee;
}
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapAddressBook)
{
foreach(const PAIRTYPE(string,int64)& r, listReceived)
{
if (mapAddressBook.count(r.first))
{
if (mapAddressBook[r.first] == strAccount)
{
nReceived += r.second;
}
}
else if (strAccount.empty())
{
nReceived += r.second;
}
}
}
}
int CMerkleTx::SetMerkleBranch(const CBlock* pblock)
{
if (fClient)
{
if (hashBlock == 0)
return 0;
}
else
{
CBlock blockTmp;
if (pblock == NULL)
{
// Load the block this tx is in
CTxIndex txindex;
if (!CTxDB("r").ReadTxIndex(GetHash(), txindex))
return 0;
if (!blockTmp.ReadFromDisk(txindex.pos.nFile, txindex.pos.nBlockPos))
return 0;
pblock = &blockTmp;
}
// Update the tx's hashBlock
hashBlock = pblock->GetHash();
// Locate the transaction
for (nIndex = 0; nIndex < pblock->vtx.size(); nIndex++)
if (pblock->vtx[nIndex] == *(CTransaction*)this)
break;
if (nIndex == pblock->vtx.size())
{
vMerkleBranch.clear();
nIndex = -1;
printf("ERROR: SetMerkleBranch() : couldn't find tx in block\n");
return 0;
}
// Fill in merkle branch
vMerkleBranch = pblock->GetMerkleBranch(nIndex);
}
// Is the tx in a block that's in the main chain
map<uint256, CBlockIndex*>::iterator mi = mapBlockIndex.find(hashBlock);
if (mi == mapBlockIndex.end())
return 0;
CBlockIndex* pindex = (*mi).second;
if (!pindex || !pindex->IsInMainChain())
return 0;
return pindexBest->nHeight - pindex->nHeight + 1;
}
void CWalletTx::AddSupportingTransactions(CTxDB& txdb)
{
vtxPrev.clear();
const int COPY_DEPTH = 3;
if (SetMerkleBranch() < COPY_DEPTH)
{
vector<uint256> vWorkQueue;
foreach(const CTxIn& txin, vin)
vWorkQueue.push_back(txin.prevout.hash);
// This critsect is OK because txdb is already open
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
map<uint256, const CMerkleTx*> mapWalletPrev;
set<uint256> setAlreadyDone;
for (int i = 0; i < vWorkQueue.size(); i++)
{
uint256 hash = vWorkQueue[i];
if (setAlreadyDone.count(hash))
continue;
setAlreadyDone.insert(hash);
<<<<ENDING CODE PORTION HERE SINCE OF FORUM TEXT LIMIT!!!>>>>
Uncle Salty
31st May 2011, 11:01 AM
Here's the bottom line with the bitoin. It is not government sanctioned. And governments want control of the money. So in the end, bitcoin will be shut down by the government when and if it gets too big.
chad
31st May 2011, 11:04 AM
eventually the founders will get greedy and change the algo to create more coins.
They can't. There is NO central control. All the decisions are already built into the network system, which regulates itself based on the programming. It cannot be altered, and if it is the network is programmed to reject them. All the programming is open sourced. Anyone can read it for themselves.
If they could, wouldn't Bit-Torrent be shut down? No. They can't. Once its done and released to the public, it can't be stopped unless pretty much every single computer on the planet is destroyed.
I copy and pasted some of the code so you could see I'm not joking. There's THOUSANDS of lines so I obviously can't put the whole code on this thread, but just so you know I'm not kidding:
// Copyright (c) 2009-2010 Satoshi Nakamoto
// Distributed under the MIT/X11 software license, see the accompanying
// file license.txt or http://www.opensource.org/licenses/mit-license.php.
#include "headers.h"
#include "cryptopp/sha.h"
//
// Global state
//
CCriticalSection cs_main;
map<uint256, CTransaction> mapTransactions;
CCriticalSection cs_mapTransactions;
unsigned int nTransactionsUpdated = 0;
map<COutPoint, CInPoint> mapNextTx;
map<uint256, CBlockIndex*> mapBlockIndex;
uint256 hashGenesisBlock("0x000000000019d6689c085ae165831e934ff763ae46a2a6c1 72b3f1b60a8ce26f");
CBigNum bnProofOfWorkLimit(~uint256(0) >> 32);
CBlockIndex* pindexGenesisBlock = NULL;
int nBestHeight = -1;
CBigNum bnBestChainWork = 0;
CBigNum bnBestInvalidWork = 0;
uint256 hashBestChain = 0;
CBlockIndex* pindexBest = NULL;
int64 nTimeBestReceived = 0;
map<uint256, CBlock*> mapOrphanBlocks;
multimap<uint256, CBlock*> mapOrphanBlocksByPrev;
map<uint256, CDataStream*> mapOrphanTransactions;
multimap<uint256, CDataStream*> mapOrphanTransactionsByPrev;
map<uint256, CWalletTx> mapWallet;
vector<uint256> vWalletUpdated;
CCriticalSection cs_mapWallet;
map<vector<unsigned char>, CPrivKey> mapKeys;
map<uint160, vector<unsigned char> > mapPubKeys;
CCriticalSection cs_mapKeys;
CKey keyUser;
map<uint256, int> mapRequestCount;
CCriticalSection cs_mapRequestCount;
map<string, string> mapAddressBook;
CCriticalSection cs_mapAddressBook;
vector<unsigned char> vchDefaultKey;
double dHashesPerSec;
int64 nHPSTimerStart;
// Settings
int fGenerateBitcoins = false;
int64 nTransactionFee = 0;
CAddress addrIncoming;
int fLimitProcessors = false;
int nLimitProcessors = 1;
int fMinimizeToTray = true;
int fMinimizeOnClose = true;
#ifdef USE_UPNP
#if USE_UPNP
int fUseUPnP = true;
#else
int fUseUPnP = false;
#endif
#endif
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// mapKeys
//
bool AddKey(const CKey& key)
{
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapKeys)
{
mapKeys[key.GetPubKey()] = key.GetPrivKey();
mapPubKeys[Hash160(key.GetPubKey())] = key.GetPubKey();
}
return CWalletDB().WriteKey(key.GetPubKey(), key.GetPrivKey());
}
vector<unsigned char> GenerateNewKey()
{
RandAddSeedPerfmon();
CKey key;
key.MakeNewKey();
if (!AddKey(key))
throw runtime_error("GenerateNewKey() : AddKey failed");
return key.GetPubKey();
}
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// mapWallet
//
bool AddToWallet(const CWalletTx& wtxIn)
{
uint256 hash = wtxIn.GetHash();
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
// Inserts only if not already there, returns tx inserted or tx found
pair<map<uint256, CWalletTx>::iterator, bool> ret = mapWallet.insert(make_pair(hash, wtxIn));
CWalletTx& wtx = (*ret.first).second;
bool fInsertedNew = ret.second;
if (fInsertedNew)
wtx.nTimeReceived = GetAdjustedTime();
bool fUpdated = false;
if (!fInsertedNew)
{
// Merge
if (wtxIn.hashBlock != 0 && wtxIn.hashBlock != wtx.hashBlock)
{
wtx.hashBlock = wtxIn.hashBlock;
fUpdated = true;
}
if (wtxIn.nIndex != -1 && (wtxIn.vMerkleBranch != wtx.vMerkleBranch || wtxIn.nIndex != wtx.nIndex))
{
wtx.vMerkleBranch = wtxIn.vMerkleBranch;
wtx.nIndex = wtxIn.nIndex;
fUpdated = true;
}
if (wtxIn.fFromMe && wtxIn.fFromMe != wtx.fFromMe)
{
wtx.fFromMe = wtxIn.fFromMe;
fUpdated = true;
}
fUpdated |= wtx.UpdateSpent(wtxIn.vfSpent);
}
//// debug print
printf("AddToWallet %s %s%s\n", wtxIn.GetHash().ToString().substr(0,10).c_str(), (fInsertedNew ? "new" : ""), (fUpdated ? "update" : ""));
// Write to disk
if (fInsertedNew || fUpdated)
if (!wtx.WriteToDisk())
return false;
// If default receiving address gets used, replace it with a new one
CScript scriptDefaultKey;
scriptDefaultKey.SetBitcoinAddress(vchDefaultKey);
foreach(const CTxOut& txout, wtx.vout)
{
if (txout.scriptPubKey == scriptDefaultKey)
{
CWalletDB walletdb;
vchDefaultKey = GetKeyFromKeyPool();
walletdb.WriteDefaultKey(vchDefaultKey);
walletdb.WriteName(PubKeyToAddress(vchDefaultKey), "");
}
}
// Notify UI
vWalletUpdated.push_back(hash);
}
// Refresh UI
MainFrameRepaint();
return true;
}
bool AddToWalletIfInvolvingMe(const CTransaction& tx, const CBlock* pblock, bool fUpdate = false)
{
uint256 hash = tx.GetHash();
bool fExisted = mapWallet.count(hash);
if (fExisted && !fUpdate) return false;
if (fExisted || tx.IsMine() || tx.IsFromMe())
{
CWalletTx wtx(tx);
// Get merkle branch if transaction was found in a block
if (pblock)
wtx.SetMerkleBranch(pblock);
return AddToWallet(wtx);
}
return false;
}
bool EraseFromWallet(uint256 hash)
{
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
if (mapWallet.erase(hash))
CWalletDB().EraseTx(hash);
}
return true;
}
void WalletUpdateSpent(const COutPoint& prevout)
{
// Anytime a signature is successfully verified, it's proof the outpoint is spent.
// Update the wallet spent flag if it doesn't know due to wallet.dat being
// restored from backup or the user making copies of wallet.dat.
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
map<uint256, CWalletTx>::iterator mi = mapWallet.find(prevout.hash);
if (mi != mapWallet.end())
{
CWalletTx& wtx = (*mi).second;
if (!wtx.IsSpent(prevout.n) && wtx.vout[prevout.n].IsMine())
{
printf("WalletUpdateSpent found spent coin %sbc %s\n", FormatMoney(wtx.GetCredit()).c_str(), wtx.GetHash().ToString().c_str());
wtx.MarkSpent(prevout.n);
wtx.WriteToDisk();
vWalletUpdated.push_back(prevout.hash);
}
}
}
}
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// mapOrphanTransactions
//
void AddOrphanTx(const CDataStream& vMsg)
{
CTransaction tx;
CDataStream(vMsg) >> tx;
uint256 hash = tx.GetHash();
if (mapOrphanTransactions.count(hash))
return;
CDataStream* pvMsg = mapOrphanTransactions[hash] = new CDataStream(vMsg);
foreach(const CTxIn& txin, tx.vin)
mapOrphanTransactionsByPrev.insert(make_pair(txin. prevout.hash, pvMsg));
}
void EraseOrphanTx(uint256 hash)
{
if (!mapOrphanTransactions.count(hash))
return;
const CDataStream* pvMsg = mapOrphanTransactions[hash];
CTransaction tx;
CDataStream(*pvMsg) >> tx;
foreach(const CTxIn& txin, tx.vin)
{
for (multimap<uint256, CDataStream*>::iterator mi = mapOrphanTransactionsByPrev.lower_bound(txin.prevo ut.hash);
mi != mapOrphanTransactionsByPrev.upper_bound(txin.prevo ut.hash);)
{
if ((*mi).second == pvMsg)
mapOrphanTransactionsByPrev.erase(mi++);
else
mi++;
}
}
delete pvMsg;
mapOrphanTransactions.erase(hash);
}
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
//
// CTransaction and CTxIndex
//
bool CTransaction::ReadFromDisk(CTxDB& txdb, COutPoint prevout, CTxIndex& txindexRet)
{
SetNull();
if (!txdb.ReadTxIndex(prevout.hash, txindexRet))
return false;
if (!ReadFromDisk(txindexRet.pos))
return false;
if (prevout.n >= vout.size())
{
SetNull();
return false;
}
return true;
}
bool CTransaction::ReadFromDisk(CTxDB& txdb, COutPoint prevout)
{
CTxIndex txindex;
return ReadFromDisk(txdb, prevout, txindex);
}
bool CTransaction::ReadFromDisk(COutPoint prevout)
{
CTxDB txdb("r");
CTxIndex txindex;
return ReadFromDisk(txdb, prevout, txindex);
}
bool CTxIn::IsMine() const
{
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
map<uint256, CWalletTx>::iterator mi = mapWallet.find(prevout.hash);
if (mi != mapWallet.end())
{
const CWalletTx& prev = (*mi).second;
if (prevout.n < prev.vout.size())
if (prev.vout[prevout.n].IsMine())
return true;
}
}
return false;
}
int64 CTxIn::GetDebit() const
{
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
map<uint256, CWalletTx>::iterator mi = mapWallet.find(prevout.hash);
if (mi != mapWallet.end())
{
const CWalletTx& prev = (*mi).second;
if (prevout.n < prev.vout.size())
if (prev.vout[prevout.n].IsMine())
return prev.vout[prevout.n].nValue;
}
}
return 0;
}
int64 CWalletTx::GetTxTime() const
{
if (!fTimeReceivedIsTxTime && hashBlock != 0)
{
// If we did not receive the transaction directly, we rely on the block's
// time to figure out when it happened. We use the median over a range
// of blocks to try to filter out inaccurate block times.
map<uint256, CBlockIndex*>::iterator mi = mapBlockIndex.find(hashBlock);
if (mi != mapBlockIndex.end())
{
CBlockIndex* pindex = (*mi).second;
if (pindex)
return pindex->GetMedianTime();
}
}
return nTimeReceived;
}
int CWalletTx::GetRequestCount() const
{
// Returns -1 if it wasn't being tracked
int nRequests = -1;
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapRequestCount)
{
if (IsCoinBase())
{
// Generated block
if (hashBlock != 0)
{
map<uint256, int>::iterator mi = mapRequestCount.find(hashBlock);
if (mi != mapRequestCount.end())
nRequests = (*mi).second;
}
}
else
{
// Did anyone request this transaction?
map<uint256, int>::iterator mi = mapRequestCount.find(GetHash());
if (mi != mapRequestCount.end())
{
nRequests = (*mi).second;
// How about the block it's in?
if (nRequests == 0 && hashBlock != 0)
{
map<uint256, int>::iterator mi = mapRequestCount.find(hashBlock);
if (mi != mapRequestCount.end())
nRequests = (*mi).second;
else
nRequests = 1; // If it's in someone else's block it must have got out
}
}
}
}
return nRequests;
}
void CWalletTx::GetAmounts(int64& nGeneratedImmature, int64& nGeneratedMature, list<pair<string, int64> >& listReceived,
list<pair<string, int64> >& listSent, int64& nFee, string& strSentAccount) const
{
nGeneratedImmature = nGeneratedMature = nFee = 0;
listReceived.clear();
listSent.clear();
strSentAccount = strFromAccount;
if (IsCoinBase())
{
if (GetBlocksToMaturity() > 0)
nGeneratedImmature = CTransaction::GetCredit();
else
nGeneratedMature = GetCredit();
return;
}
// Compute fee:
int64 nDebit = GetDebit();
if (nDebit > 0) // debit>0 means we signed/sent this transaction
{
int64 nValueOut = GetValueOut();
nFee = nDebit - nValueOut;
}
// Sent/received. Standard client will never generate a send-to-multiple-recipients,
// but non-standard clients might (so return a list of address/amount pairs)
foreach(const CTxOut& txout, vout)
{
string address;
uint160 hash160;
vector<unsigned char> vchPubKey;
if (ExtractHash160(txout.scriptPubKey, hash160))
address = Hash160ToAddress(hash160);
else if (ExtractPubKey(txout.scriptPubKey, false, vchPubKey))
address = PubKeyToAddress(vchPubKey);
else
{
printf("CWalletTx::GetAmounts: Unknown transaction type found, txid %s\n",
this->GetHash().ToString().c_str());
address = " unknown ";
}
// Don't report 'change' txouts
if (nDebit > 0 && txout.IsChange())
continue;
if (nDebit > 0)
listSent.push_back(make_pair(address, txout.nValue));
if (txout.IsMine())
listReceived.push_back(make_pair(address, txout.nValue));
}
}
void CWalletTx::GetAccountAmounts(const string& strAccount, int64& nGenerated, int64& nReceived,
int64& nSent, int64& nFee) const
{
nGenerated = nReceived = nSent = nFee = 0;
int64 allGeneratedImmature, allGeneratedMature, allFee;
allGeneratedImmature = allGeneratedMature = allFee = 0;
string strSentAccount;
list<pair<string, int64> > listReceived;
list<pair<string, int64> > listSent;
GetAmounts(allGeneratedImmature, allGeneratedMature, listReceived, listSent, allFee, strSentAccount);
if (strAccount == "")
nGenerated = allGeneratedMature;
if (strAccount == strSentAccount)
{
foreach(const PAIRTYPE(string,int64)& s, listSent)
nSent += s.second;
nFee = allFee;
}
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapAddressBook)
{
foreach(const PAIRTYPE(string,int64)& r, listReceived)
{
if (mapAddressBook.count(r.first))
{
if (mapAddressBook[r.first] == strAccount)
{
nReceived += r.second;
}
}
else if (strAccount.empty())
{
nReceived += r.second;
}
}
}
}
int CMerkleTx::SetMerkleBranch(const CBlock* pblock)
{
if (fClient)
{
if (hashBlock == 0)
return 0;
}
else
{
CBlock blockTmp;
if (pblock == NULL)
{
// Load the block this tx is in
CTxIndex txindex;
if (!CTxDB("r").ReadTxIndex(GetHash(), txindex))
return 0;
if (!blockTmp.ReadFromDisk(txindex.pos.nFile, txindex.pos.nBlockPos))
return 0;
pblock = &blockTmp;
}
// Update the tx's hashBlock
hashBlock = pblock->GetHash();
// Locate the transaction
for (nIndex = 0; nIndex < pblock->vtx.size(); nIndex++)
if (pblock->vtx[nIndex] == *(CTransaction*)this)
break;
if (nIndex == pblock->vtx.size())
{
vMerkleBranch.clear();
nIndex = -1;
printf("ERROR: SetMerkleBranch() : couldn't find tx in block\n");
return 0;
}
// Fill in merkle branch
vMerkleBranch = pblock->GetMerkleBranch(nIndex);
}
// Is the tx in a block that's in the main chain
map<uint256, CBlockIndex*>::iterator mi = mapBlockIndex.find(hashBlock);
if (mi == mapBlockIndex.end())
return 0;
CBlockIndex* pindex = (*mi).second;
if (!pindex || !pindex->IsInMainChain())
return 0;
return pindexBest->nHeight - pindex->nHeight + 1;
}
void CWalletTx::AddSupportingTransactions(CTxDB& txdb)
{
vtxPrev.clear();
const int COPY_DEPTH = 3;
if (SetMerkleBranch() < COPY_DEPTH)
{
vector<uint256> vWorkQueue;
foreach(const CTxIn& txin, vin)
vWorkQueue.push_back(txin.prevout.hash);
// This critsect is OK because txdb is already open
CRITICAL_BLOCK(cs_mapWallet)
{
map<uint256, const CMerkleTx*> mapWalletPrev;
set<uint256> setAlreadyDone;
for (int i = 0; i < vWorkQueue.size(); i++)
{
uint256 hash = vWorkQueue[i];
if (setAlreadyDone.count(hash))
continue;
setAlreadyDone.insert(hash);
<<<<ENDING CODE PORTION HERE SINCE OF FORUM TEXT LIMIT!!!>>>>
hmmm. it does appear that way.
Shami-Amourae
31st May 2011, 11:24 AM
Here's the bottom line with the bitoin. It is not government sanctioned. And governments want control of the money. So in the end, bitcoin will be shut down by the government when and if it gets too big.
Just like they shut down Bit-Torrent, right? They can't. Cats out of the bag.
madfranks
31st May 2011, 02:52 PM
eventually the founders will get greedy and change the algo to create more coins.
They can't. There is NO central control. All the decisions are already built into the network system, which regulates itself based on the programming. It cannot be altered, and if it is the network is programmed to reject them. All the programming is open sourced. Anyone can read it for themselves.
How does the program know how many bitcoins are enough? What if an unforeseen circumstance causes the program to glitch up and either create or destroy gazillions of bitcoins?
Shami-Amourae
31st May 2011, 03:00 PM
BitCoins are all stored locally on your computer. The network keeps track of all transactions ever and knows when new BitCoins are mined/added to the total pool. So the more that are discovered, the harder it gets to find new ones. There's multiple copies of all the network transactions on various computers, so if someone tries to cheat and somehow counterfeits a BitCoin, the network will ignore them and not accept their fake BitCoins as "legal tender" as they might say.
Neuro
31st May 2011, 04:20 PM
I saw there were something like 6.500.000 circulating (iow the monetary base of bitcoins), worth at this moment around $59 million. How many are possible?
Dogman
31st May 2011, 04:23 PM
I saw there were something like 6.500.000 circulating (iow the monetary base of bitcoins), worth at this moment around $59 million. How many are possible?
21 Million coins , is the limit from what I have read.
Shami-Amourae
31st May 2011, 04:23 PM
Scroll to 13:00 for a Max Keiser interview discussing BitCoin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHcS_UvRxCM
Shami-Amourae
31st May 2011, 04:24 PM
I saw there were something like 6.500.000 circulating (iow the monetary base of bitcoins), worth at this moment around $59 million. How many are possible?
21 Million coins , is the limit from what I have read.
It gets more and more difficult According the estimations it will take 140 years to reach 21 million coins, which the difficulty to mine new coins will be so high, they should be impossible to acquire.
Uncle Salty
31st May 2011, 04:59 PM
Here's the bottom line with the bitoin. It is not government sanctioned. And governments want control of the money. So in the end, bitcoin will be shut down by the government when and if it gets too big.
Just like they shut down Bit-Torrent, right? They can't. Cats out of the bag.
Bit torrent was not a currency. They kill Presidents who try to mess with money.
sirgonzo420
31st May 2011, 05:04 PM
Here's the bottom line with the bitoin. It is not government sanctioned. And governments want control of the money. So in the end, bitcoin will be shut down by the government when and if it gets too big.
Just like they shut down Bit-Torrent, right? They can't. Cats out of the bag.
Bit torrent was not a currency. They kill Presidents who try to mess with money.
One of the head dudes is going to Langley for a meeting with the CIA in June....
I would suggest he not drink any coffee or water offered... lol
Shami-Amourae
31st May 2011, 05:27 PM
Bit torrent was not a currency. They kill Presidents who try to mess with money.
Oh I know. The point with the Bit-Torrent thing was that they tried many things to defeat it but never could at the end of the day. I'm mainly into this since it could finally be the Achilles' heel we need to defeat the NWO and achieve freedom for humanity. The Elites cannot control humanity forever in my opinion since of technology. Threats of force and violence are tools the elites use to control the masses, but when it comes to technology it benefits us more than it benefits them. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping this liberates humanity as much as or more than the Internet did. I just hope it all is true and works out. Smart people in the liberty movement are both for and against it, which means there's a healthy debate going on, and not blind acceptance. I may be completely wrong, but I think everyone should take a serious look at it before criticizing it. Most of the people in the community are libertarians and anarchists (just look at the anarchy and Ron Paul avatars in the BitCoin forums.) I don't see any serious risk to trying it out at this point, so I already pulled the trigger.
Olmstein
31st May 2011, 05:44 PM
So, the more I look into this, the more confused I am. People are "mining" for these bitcoins using electricity (energy) to power their mining rigs. In a sense they are trading FRNs spent on electricity for bitcoins. And if, over time, it takes more and more energy to "mine" a bitcoin, then they will always increase in value vs FRNs. Doesn't sound like a stable currency model to me.
Am I off base with my thinking here?
BTW, I'm officially calling these "Nerd Dollars" from now on.
Buddha
31st May 2011, 10:33 PM
Been mining all day, don't have shit. My "rig" is not powerful enough. The more I read about this however the more interested I become in the principle of this whole thing.
Buster
31st May 2011, 10:57 PM
Money for nothing and your chits for free? Anybody have any experience with voucher-safe?
Shami-Amourae
31st May 2011, 10:58 PM
Been mining all day, don't have shit. My "rig" is not powerful enough. The more I read about this however the more interested I become in the principle of this whole thing.
I wouldn't recommend it unless you had a rig like I showed here:
http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/so-what%27s-the-deal-with-bitcoins/msg233331/#msg233331
Otherwise its a waste of electricity and not to friendly on your GPUs.
Buddha
31st May 2011, 11:25 PM
Been mining all day, don't have shit. My "rig" is not powerful enough. The more I read about this however the more interested I become in the principle of this whole thing.
I wouldn't recommend it unless you had a rig like I showed here:
http://gold-silver.us/forum/general-discussion/so-what%27s-the-deal-with-bitcoins/msg233331/#msg233331
Otherwise its a waste of electricity and not to friendly on your GPUs.
Yeah, I'm just dicking around, seeing how long it takes to get anything. I only have an imbedded 64mb nvida chipset, so I am just running the default with CPU mining. With 3.0 GHZ dual core, I only get 2500 - 3000 khash/s been idle for 12 hours straight and was using for a few hours yesterday and nothing. This is all interesting to me none the less.
What is your Bitcoin strategy?
sirgonzo420
1st June 2011, 05:53 AM
anyone who wants to donate can direct their bitcoins to:
1PhXXV3W6btwY9XcQbaP8rS1sDkJbZWdof
:D
SLV^GLD
1st June 2011, 07:18 AM
So, the more I look into this, the more confused I am. People are "mining" for these bitcoins using electricity (energy) to power their mining rigs. In a sense they are trading FRNs spent on electricity for bitcoins. And if, over time, it takes more and more energy to "mine" a bitcoin, then they will always increase in value vs FRNs. Doesn't sound like a stable currency model to me.
Am I off base with my thinking here?
BTW, I'm officially calling these "Nerd Dollars" from now on.
You're thinking is kind of off-base. The electrical consumption is simply collateral damage and has relatively little effect on the perceived value of the coin. The primary perceived value lies in rarity and demand. However, if you were to burn a considerable amount of electricity and commit FRNs to the creation of a mining machine then you would place a higher perceived value on your own generated coins because they cost you FRNs. The reasons are still collateral damage. The reason you had to burn so much electricity is because the more people there are mining the more difficult the it becomes therefore making value a function of demand.
I think it is a very balanced system and I think most of the concerns about the algorithm being hijacked are born out of ignorance.
Here's some good reading on the subject:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses
Horn
1st June 2011, 08:02 AM
My question is could it be suddenly put into jeopardy by unseen forces cornering and milking the market?
Bigjon
1st June 2011, 08:24 AM
Could someone point me to the actual algorithm that BitCoin is based on?
It seems they will tell you all about BitCoin, except actually telling you the specifics of what a BitCoin is. I have been all over there forum and haven't found it yet.
Are they ashamed of something?
OK, Thanks to SLV^GLD, I found something: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Block_hashing_algorithm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-2
The main wiki on their site is down and I always got a big "Forbidden" "you do not have permission to access this"
Olmstein
1st June 2011, 08:31 AM
My question is could it be suddenly put into jeopardy by unseen forces cornering and milking the market?
Unseen forces?
Do you mean this guy?
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Everyone%20Else/images-2/greedy-jewish-person-cartoon.jpg
Olmstein
1st June 2011, 08:45 AM
So, the more I look into this, the more confused I am. People are "mining" for these bitcoins using electricity (energy) to power their mining rigs. In a sense they are trading FRNs spent on electricity for bitcoins. And if, over time, it takes more and more energy to "mine" a bitcoin, then they will always increase in value vs FRNs. Doesn't sound like a stable currency model to me.
Am I off base with my thinking here?
BTW, I'm officially calling these "Nerd Dollars" from now on.
You're thinking is kind of off-base.
What? They're not nerd dollars? :)
The electrical consumption is simply collateral damage and has relatively little effect on the perceived value of the coin. The primary perceived value lies in rarity and demand. However, if you were to burn a considerable amount of electricity and commit FRNs to the creation of a mining machine then you would place a higher perceived value on your own generated coins because they cost you FRNs. The reasons are still collateral damage. The reason you had to burn so much electricity is because the more people there are mining the more difficult the it becomes therefore making value a function of demand.
I think it is a very balanced system and I think most of the concerns about the algorithm being hijacked are born out of ignorance.
Here's some good reading on the subject:
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Myths
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Weaknesses
The miner doesn't determine the value of these nerd dollars, the market does. If I spend 100 hrs to earn 1 FRN, the value is not determined by my labor, it's determined by the market.
Awoke
1st June 2011, 09:25 AM
I have no idea WTF any of you are talking about.
Mining with your computer?
Discovering bitcoins? WTF?
It's not as if these bitcoins existed somewhere in the world wide web, and they can be found by running your PC...
What is going on here?
SLV^GLD
1st June 2011, 09:57 AM
It's not as if these bitcoins existed somewhere in the world wide web, and they can be found by running your PC...
Actually, that is precisely the case.
The mining is a process of solving a mathematical hash. Once solved a coin is created. The creation of the coin is appended to the current algorithm's chain and therefore a new solution hash is sprung into existence to be mined into yet another bitcoin. The algorithm is modified to be more difficult the more miners are working towards the hash. The creation of a bitcoin is specific to a timestamp and a solver so it can be incorporated into the chain as a unique serial number of sorts meaning the next hash is pretty much randomized each time.
Awoke
1st June 2011, 10:33 AM
Sounds fishy to me.
Dogman
1st June 2011, 10:50 AM
It does sound interesting to say the least, I have done some looking at the forums and such that are about bitcoins and a couple of things come to mind. As long as the power requirements and time to create a coin are less than the coin value, is added. If more, value is lost to the creator unless the value of the coin increases in time to cover the cost.
Also the people that got in early stand to make the most gain, create at $1 and now the worth is say $7.
Or one can buy bitcoins to get started and do like metals, buy in at current value , what $ 7.00 and hope the the ones bought and created by you increase in value.
But in the back of my mind, the image of a pyramid is there, the ones that got in at the first will make the most so they sit on the top , and the ones below are creating coins or buying them. But as long as the system does not crash or legal issues come into play, looks like no one can lose value in bitcoins.
I may have it wrong, just can not shake that picture.
Something just does not feel right, but that just maybe me.
sirgonzo420
1st June 2011, 11:10 AM
bitcoins started selling for $0.10 each.... now they go for about $9.00 each.
If timed correctly, bitcoins could make (or could have made) someone a fortune.
Golden
1st June 2011, 11:30 AM
Buyer beware.
No digital hash for this cpu.
I wonder what's growing in the garden...
Neuro
1st June 2011, 01:24 PM
Been mining all day, don't have shit. My "rig" is not powerful enough. The more I read about this however the more interested I become in the principle of this whole thing.
Yes, I agree it is very interesting. In a way it is quite similar to gold, in that it takes an effort to 'mine' it that increases with time with some advantages like it is easy to transfer abroad without the control state not being able to seize your assets, and I think safer to store out of hands of criminals. One drawback is that it is not tangible, and it doesn't shine like gold, which may be less off a problem for the cybergeneration. The biggest drawback though is that this currency is dependent on a functioning and free internet... I do think though that it is possible that this unbacked, but extremely limited in supply currency can make extraordinary gains, as far as I have seen, the infrastructure to trade it has already been set up for it. It is easily divisible, the price of 1 bitcoin can soon be in the thousands of dollars, if a lot of people get interested in it!
Awoke
1st June 2011, 02:01 PM
Wouldn't a person be saferto buy into a pool account or trade paper PM's?
I just don't get it. There must be a video or something posted in this thread that I can't see, because "Solving mathematical equations with your PC, which produces a mined bitcoin" is just not making any sense to me.
sirgonzo420
1st June 2011, 02:56 PM
Wouldn't a person be saferto buy into a pool account or trade paper PM's?
I just don't get it. There must be a video or something posted in this thread that I can't see, because "Solving mathematical equations with your PC, which produces a mined bitcoin" is just not making any sense to me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um63OQz3bjo
Awoke
1st June 2011, 05:35 PM
I don't like it. They tell you NOTHING about what your computer is doing while it runs the "Bitcoin Miner" program. It's fishy. Nothing is for free. What purpose if your CPU being used for during this mining process? You just install this program and your computer magically starts mining these bitcoins that you can exchange for fiat currency?
Sounds fishy. Maybe I'm missing something, but wtf?
SLV^GLD
1st June 2011, 08:09 PM
I don't like it. They tell you NOTHING about what your computer is doing while it runs the "Bitcoin Miner" program. It's fishy. Nothing is for free. What purpose if your CPU being used for during this mining process? You just install this program and your computer magically starts mining these bitcoins that you can exchange for fiat currency?
Sounds fishy. Maybe I'm missing something, but wtf?
First off, you can just buy the bitcoins; no computations are needed to participate. Secondly, the computing that is being done is calculating the hash to the current block in the ever growing chain. Each transaction or bitcoin creation adds blocks to the chain so the hashes must always be recalculated. A successful hash discovery results in a new bitcoin. The current chain is distributed so that everyone is simultaneously trying to calculate the same hash.
Has it occurred to you to actually read the information provided? They make this much evidently clear.
There is no big conspiracy (yet). If you want to participate buy some coins. At this point, on a typical desktop machine you are looking at about 5 years of non-stop number crunching to create one single coin so mining is mostly moot unless you want to invest in purpose built machines. If you don't want to participate, fine, but don't call it out as some crazy scheme if you won't even take the time to understand it. Mining was really just a way to get the concept off the ground, it is simply the intermediary means to the end which is a virtual currency that is accepted by people who prefer to avoid traditional government and corporate monopolized currencies. It's about freedom.
Awoke
1st June 2011, 08:23 PM
First off, you can just buy the bitcoins; no computations are needed to participate. Secondly, the computing that is being done is calculating the hash to the current block in the ever growing chain. Each transaction or bitcoin creation adds blocks to the chain so the hashes must always be recalculated. A successful hash discovery results in a new bitcoin. The current chain is distributed so that everyone is simultaneously trying to calculate the same hash.
Has it occurred to you to actually read the information provided? They make this much evidently clear.
There is no big conspiracy (yet). If you want to participate buy some coins. At this point, on a typical desktop machine you are looking at about 5 years of non-stop number crunching to create one single coin so mining is mostly moot unless you want to invest in purpose built machines. If you don't want to participate, fine, but don't call it out as some crazy scheme if you won't even take the time to understand it. Mining was really just a way to get the concept off the ground, it is simply the intermediary means to the end which is a virtual currency that is accepted by people who prefer to avoid traditional government and corporate monopolized currencies.
Hey SLV^GLD, how's this sound? Don't tell me how to conduct myself on this fucking forum. Simple enough?
I never once said it was "some crazy scheme" or anything like that. I simply said it sounds fishy. Twice.
Had it ever occurred to you that the reason I never read through the material provided is because I think it's fishy and I'm not interested in putting digital fiat into digital bitcoins? In fact, your reply was exactly the kind of reply I was looking for: a short, concise explanation of the entire outfit, except for the "Dripping with asshole attitude" part.
It's about freedom.
No. They are about another digital currency with no PM backing which is underground and temporarily tax evasive.
This (http://www.howtovanish.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Liberty-Dollars-multiple.jpg) and this (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_tgjwVzthrKY/TTnnPCm6ZcI/AAAAAAAAACI/r0aAagrvFbo/s1600/45+Automatic+Colt+Pistol+%28ACP%29+ammunition%2C+l oaded+with+hollow+point+bullets%5B1%5D.jpg) are about freedom.
EDIT to add that I am not adverse to "bitcoins" or the potential to make money with them. I am adverse to douchebaggery.
Buddha
1st June 2011, 10:26 PM
A PM backed currency wont provide freedom. PMs are not the end all solution.
vacuum
1st June 2011, 11:06 PM
If its totally open source, like I'm told it is, and distributed on top of that, I see no way the system can be a ponzi scheme or the like.
Awoke
2nd June 2011, 06:15 AM
A PM backed currency wont provide freedom. PMs are not the end all solution.
I never said that either.
SLV^GLD
2nd June 2011, 06:21 AM
If its totally open source, like I'm told it is, and distributed on top of that, I see no way the system can be a ponzi scheme or the like.
I agree. Plus, in order for the system to work, people who generate coins have to spend the coins with no inherent way of getting them back. So, it seems pretty much impossible to insure that those who get in at the beginning can somehow continue to reap from those who get in after. Implying otherwise would be akin to implying that someone who bought silver at $4/ozt and sold at $40/ozt was involved in a ponzi scheme.
Horn
2nd June 2011, 02:37 PM
I agree. Plus, in order for the system to work, people who generate coins have to spend the coins with no inherent way of getting them back.
So a new coin has a time stamp on it, and is only whole after it is exchanged or sold?
Shami-Amourae
2nd June 2011, 02:56 PM
BitCoin buy price just broke $10 today to a high of $10.57 per coin. Remember, I bought $100 worth of coins $6.80 here (http://gold-silver.us/forum/finance-and-economics/bitcoins/msg226933/#msg226933), less than 3 weeks ago.
I hate to say this, but it's outperforming any precious metal right now. Doesn't mean it's a sound long term investment, but these numbers are making me more and more interested due to greed. I just hope I can think rationally beyond this point.
chad
2nd June 2011, 02:57 PM
everyone who has extras should send them here:
1CAkxEqSpxrivGnsn5owPZxSszQc3ivSHW
;D
Shami-Amourae
3rd June 2011, 08:23 AM
Update today: Price got to a high of $14.30! Holy shit, that's a 30% move in a day!
sirgonzo420
3rd June 2011, 09:15 AM
Update today: Price got to a high of $14.30! Holy shit, that's a 30% move in a day!
Crazy, right?
BTW, have you heard of "Silk Road"?
Shami-Amourae
3rd June 2011, 10:11 AM
The game or roads system in Asia?
sirgonzo420
3rd June 2011, 10:17 AM
The game or roads system in Asia?
http://theweek.com/article/index/215850/silk-road-the-amazoncom-of-illegal-drugs
Neuro
3rd June 2011, 01:04 PM
The game or roads system in Asia?
http://theweek.com/article/index/215850/silk-road-the-amazoncom-of-illegal-drugs
So the bitcoins aren't really anonymous then. Since a log is kept on the holders, and government can get these transcripts!
SLV^GLD
3rd June 2011, 01:58 PM
So the bitcoins aren't really anonymous then. Since a log is kept on the holders, and government can get these transcripts!
Depends on your definition of anonymous. If you associate your flesh and blood or brick and mortar presence with your wallet file then you have destroyed any real level of anonymity. If you maintain a separation between the two then your log of transactions is only related to the serial number of your wallet.
Bigjon
3rd June 2011, 03:31 PM
The game or roads system in Asia?
http://theweek.com/article/index/215850/silk-road-the-amazoncom-of-illegal-drugs
So the bitcoins aren't really anonymous then. Since a log is kept on the holders, and government can get these transcripts!
There is a guy who is coding an anonymous application here (http://library.agoristradio.com/library/cypherpunkd/cypherpunkd-EP011.mp3).
Cypherpunkd
Episode
011:
“Introduction
to
Open-Transactions
Financial
Crypto
System
and
Integration
with
Bitcoin
–
Part
1″
–
Fellow
Traveler
Posted April 18th, 2011 in Cypherpunkd by admin
Part 1 of our first Interview with Cypherpunk Fellow Traveler on the “Open-Transactions Financial Crypto System and Bitcoin Integration”. Traveler gives an intro to where this system came from from, motivations behind it, history. How to look at this system and what it does. Accounts transfers, Vouchers, Checks, Digital Cash, Basket Currencies, the Integrated Stock Exchange type Market features. …And drum roll… Integration with Bitcoin… to fulfill the other need for Bitcoin: Anonymous and Instant transaction settlement.
FellowTraveler / Open-Transactions Github and Info Site
https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/
Nick Szabo — The Idea of Smart Contracts
http://szabo.best.vwh.net/smart_contracts_idea.html
Lucre: Anonymous Electronic Tokens v1.8
http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/theory2.pdf
Ricardian Contracts
http://www.systemics.com/docs/ricardo/issuer/contract.html
https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions/wiki/Sample-Currency-Contract
http://iang.org/papers/ricardian_contract.html
BitCoin Virtual Currency
http://www.bitcoin.org/
Bigjon
3rd June 2011, 03:42 PM
Digital Cash (http://orlingrabbe.com/?page_id=1462637643)
Services, Systems, and Related Resources
Working Services
Loom.cc
Loom is a system which enables people to transfer ownership of assets at will. – FAQ
Loom is an infrastructure for privately hiding and revealing secrets. – What the Heck is Loom?
eCache
eCache – Anonymous Digital Bearer Certificates. eCache is anonymous digital cash. Like the US-Dollar banknotes you have in your wallet, except that it is all digital and all anonymous.
Pecunix
Pecunix is a digital gold currency founded in 2002 by Simon Davis. Similar to competing systems such as e-gold, Pecunix allows for the instant transfer of gold between user accounts. – Wikipedia Entry
iGolder
iGolder is private club providing a website to its members for exchanging electronic gold with each other. To facilitate private gold exchanges, iGolder offers to its members the option to be listed in our public directory and disclose their feedback reputation scores.
iGolder is strategically, technically and financially independent of any bank, government or corporation. The iGolder platform was entirely built and financed by the personal savings of the founders who are professional software developers. They have no outside investors and no debt. iGolder Ltd is registered in the Republic of Belize.
Goldnowbanc
Buy, Sell, Exchange Gold. Based on Loom system. DGC Magazine Writeup
Software / Active Development
Loom
Open Source Code in Perl.
Truledger (formerly Trubanc)
Open Source Code in Lisp. Truledger is an anonymous, digitally-signed vault and trading system. Like Loom, it allows anyone to issue assets (digital currencies). Unlike Loom, which relies entirely on (very good) obscurity for security, Truledger’s digital signatures allow the bank and the customer to prove to each other that they agreed at a particular time on their balances. It does this while allowing destruction of transaction history for closed trades.
Open-Transactions & Alternative Second Realm Info Page
* Untraceable Digital Cash (real blinded tokens).
* Pseudonymous User Accounts (“account” == PGP key).
* Many Financial Instruments (cheques, cash, vouchers, invoices, transfers, etc).
* Anyone An Issuer (Ricardian-style Contracts)
* Triple-Signed Receipts
* Basket Currencies
* NEW! Markets with Trades
* NEW! Payment Plans
* NEW! Native API now available in Java, Ruby, Python, PHP, Perl, C, C++, Objective-C, C#, Tcl, and LISP.
* NEW! Open Transactions as a Web Service (XmlRpc / HTTP transport now available.)
* Soon: Stocks that pay dividends, Bonds that pay interest, and Collateralized Debt Obligations.
* Soon: 2-D Barcodes to make possible “Any screen a cash register” and “Any camera phone a customer.”
* Soon: Multi-signer Escrow
Voucher Safe: The P2P Voucher Payment Project
What is the P2P Voucher Payment System?
It is a mechanism for the secure, anonymous exchange of digital vouchers peer-to-peer between users, implemented as an extension to XMPP (external link) (aka Jabber (external link)), an instant messaging service. Basically, you can pay anyone you can chat with.
Ptkp
Public Key Transaction Processor: A distributed public key infrastructure based transactional signing system that provides secure settlement, confidence in the transaction and a high degree of privacy. Open Source. Uber-geeky very low-level.
NuBux
From BillStClair Post: “NuBux has got to be the simplest account interface imagineable. Register with an email address and password, and it gives you $1,000 to play with (demo system, obviously). You can spend to other email addresses, see a list of your transactions, and inspect each individual transaction. That’s the whole thing. Open source. MIT license. A product of Pelle Braendgaard and Stake Ventures Inc.” Open Source.
Bitcoin
Bitcoin is a peer-to-peer electronic cash system (backed by nothing, limited by CPU capacity) developed by Satoshi Nakamoto. The system is decentralized with no central server or trusted parties. Bitcoin relies on cryptographic principles to create unique, unreproducible, and divisible tokens of value. Users hold the crypto keys to their own money and transact directly with each other, with the help of the network to check for double-spending. An open source
i2conomy
IOU based distributed currency for I2P
Wija: Open Source XMPP/Jabber GUI Client with Builtin GPG and Digital Cash System
It is of interest because of the gpg integration for messaging and file
transfers and its digital currency plugins:
http://www.media-art-online.org/iwat/
# i-WAT (distributed autonomous barter currency system)
* Our distribution of i-WAT includes the following barter currencies
also.
o WIDE Hours (labor currency based on working hours)
o Barter Dollar (barter currency measured in US dollars)
o Barter Yen (barter currency measured in Japanese Yen)
–
Using i-WAT, you can easily establish barter relationships by drawing
new i-WAT tickets, which look like an electronic version of bills of
exchange, or using existing tickets you have obtained from others. By
this, you can support values which are not readily circulated in today’s
economy, such as volunteer works, daily helps and enjoyments, minor
works of literature/music/image or other arts, or skills that are not
regularly utilized. (Of course, i-WAT is also used for exchanging goods
or services which are commonly circulated in today’s economy.)
The word economy originally meant the process of
production/distribution/consumption which forms the foundation for
cooperative lives of people, and the whole social relationships
resulting from such activities. i-WAT complements such relationships,
which tend to be overlooked in the economy as a form of thrifty
management of money, by building the network of confidence based on the
WAT-system. i-WAT is a system of complementary/barter currencies1 and “a
new medium to connect human beings”.
–
* A complete port of the WAT core onto the Internet.
o You can now use the WAT-system, a system of cooperative
distributed autonomous barter currencies, on the Internet.
* Extended parts can be defined.
o You can design a new currency that fits objectives and needs
of a community.
* Licensed under GNU GPL – freely usable, modifiable and
distributable as stated by the license.
o i-WAT is a free software.
Historical
DMT – The Digital Monetary Trust
The Digital Monetary Trust was an anonymous internet banking system using electronic money. It consisted of a three-layered computer system. Its function was to abstract the identity of the account owner from the accounts. That is, the account holders transfer money into the DMT network, which becomes the legal owner of the money. Then, the account holder can make a private DMT transfer to another account in the system. The system was based on trust between the “bank” and the account holders.
Due to the Reversability of Wire Transfers (You didn’t know wire transfers were reversible did you?) e-bay style fraudsters were able to bring this young system to the ground.
More Info:
The Digital Monetary Trust Part 1: Introduction
The Digital Monetary Trust Part 2: The Anonymous Account System
A Critique of the Digital Monetary Trust
e-gold
US Based Digital Gold Currency system. Currently a US Federal Government Operated Honeypot after Millions $USD stolen from account holders without Due Process. Example of why only a fool would operate in competition with the Federal Reserve and US Treasury within US borders.
Yodel Bank
Yodel Bank was an online anonymous banking system which operated from at least as early as 2003 through to November 2005. Yodel Bank was not a registered company in any country, its operator’s identity is unknown, and it existed entirely outside any countries laws.
1mdc
Sub-Account based system, on TOP of e-gold. Millions of USD confiscated from Thousands of account holders without Due Process of any sort by goose stepping US government jackboot thugs.
e-Bullion
e-Bullion was a digital gold currency founded by Jim Fayed. The company was launched on July 4, 2001. As of 4 August 2008 Jim Fayed was in United States Federal custody facing felony charges of conducting unlicensed money transactions via e-Bullion and the bloody slaughter of his wife/business partner, and e-Bullion was closed for business and the website unavailable. Account holders were left holding their knickers.
Similar to competing systems such as e-gold, e-Bullion allowed for the instant transfer of gold and silver between user accounts. Another one that bit the dust.
Phyxer – DGC Client Side GUI
http://web.archive.org/web/20080621084016/http://www.phyxer.org/
Phyxer is designed to make the day-to-day use of e-gold and e-Bullion, or other DGC accounts hassle free, programmable through a plugin type system. It enables the user to manage all his accounts within a dedicated software, including payments.
Many dgc’s web interfaces may not be for all tastes when it comes to extensive and daily use. Phyxer fills the gap by providing a consistent and efficient way to access e-currency accounts.
Privacy and security have been kept in mind while developing Phyxer, since they are critical for this kind of software. Phyxer contains no spyware and the source code is left open in order to enable anyone wishing to verify this assumption to do so.
Features
Transaction history
e-gold and e-Bullion accounts history browsing (online or offline)
Periodic history checking and notification of new transactions
Powerful filtering, sorting and searching options
Transactions can be marked as “cleared”
CSV export, readable by any spreadsheet software
CSV import, allowing completely offline use
Payments
Single payment to another account (preview and confirm)
Mass payment to multiple accounts at once
Payment calculation given a past transaction and a formula
Interface
Flexible interface
Multilingual (click here for more information)
Security
Secured connections via SSL
Single encrypted file for storing data of all accounts
Proxy support (only for e-gold)
Misc
Possible usage on USB key
Cross-platform (Windows and GNU/Linux)
Windows Installer v 5.2 includes src.
Src Code Windows/Linux v 5.2
cd phyxer
python src/phyxer.py
Other
Liberty Reserve
Probably the most popular and used DGC type payment system in the world, but most accounts are non-gold backed denominated in USD. Extremely popular with HYIP. 1 level above Paypal. 10 levels below Pecunix, in terms of Privacy. LR is an account-based payment system where you can store value in U.S. dollars and transfer payments to others and receive payments from others.
WebMoney
Extreme KYC requirements. WebMoney is an electronic money and online payment system (transactions are conducted through WebMoney Transfer). WM Transfer Ltd, the owner and administrator of WebMoney Transfer Online Payment System, was founded in 1998 and is a legal corporate entity of Belize, Central America. Originally targeted mainly at Russian clients, it is now used worldwide. The company claims to have more than 11 million users.
Resources
Digital Gold Currency Magazine (DGC Magazine)
All current and archive issues available online in PDF format. Describing themselves: “DGC Magazine is committed to the legal expansion of digital currency. Free market money, complementary currency and digital currency are local and global solutions which can expand trade and build a stronger world. A world not based on paper debt or the future promise to pay.
Slowly, legally and ethically we try to move digital gold currency forward into everyday business.”
Bullion_Bob
4th June 2011, 12:45 AM
Here's the bottom line with the bitoin. It is not government sanctioned. And governments want control of the money. So in the end, bitcoin will be shut down by the government when and if it gets too big.
Just like they shut down Bit-Torrent, right? They can't. Cats out of the bag.
That's just it. Thy would have to outlaw buying computers. The entire premise is mass de-centralization.
Instead of grow ops, they will be busting people for computer farms in their basements.
Although there is no physical unit of value per se, there is a definite value of work attached to each unit, something paper dollars lack completely.
Very interesting.
Shami-Amourae
4th June 2011, 12:52 AM
We are are currently leaving the industrial revolution and entering the information revolution. Nerds will be king.
Bullion_Bob
4th June 2011, 01:44 AM
The fact that TPTB "invited" buddy to speak about it is very telling. I bet they are allocating entire departments to this already or will be very soon. Buddy is going to have agents following him around, if not already, and have every device connected to him, and all his friends, wire tapped, and recorded 24/7.
Once you realize it operates on the same premise as bit torrents using DHT (distributed hash table) it all becomes evident what this is going to be.
The only weaknesses I see are shutting down sites that advertise bit coin transaction capabilities, so as to limit the viability of it entering the market place thus making it less liquid.
....and they will try.
Much more to come on this development in the future no doubt.
Bigjon
4th June 2011, 09:20 AM
One big weakness is RSA public/private key encription.
McCanney said in his last show he will be doing a broadcast that explains why it is childs play to crack the RSA codes via his ability to calculate prime numbers directly.
This whole scheme relies on the signing of the hash with your private key, if I can find that key I can spend it again and again.
keehah
4th June 2011, 10:51 AM
I don't like it. They tell you NOTHING about what your computer is doing while it runs the "Bitcoin Miner" program. It's fishy. Nothing is for free. What purpose if your CPU being used for during this mining process? You just install this program and your computer magically starts mining these bitcoins that you can exchange for fiat currency?
Sounds fishy. Maybe I'm missing something, but wtf?
First off, you can just buy the bitcoins; no computations are needed to participate. Secondly, the computing that is being done is calculating the hash to the current block in the ever growing chain. Each transaction or bitcoin creation adds blocks to the chain so the hashes must always be recalculated. A successful hash discovery results in a new bitcoin. The current chain is distributed so that everyone is simultaneously trying to calculate the same hash.
Has it occurred to you to actually read the information provided? They make this much evidently clear.
Very clear. Like knowing as I now do one does not need a computer and plays with chains drawing lines in the sand when using this new currency. ;D
_______________
I'm suspicious of the polished playground explanations, black box steps I don't understand and don't like entropy waste mining (even though it may be needed to work-as with the metals).
That said I may try it. It could be nice to have a new technology that openly and with no costs performs basically all the required functions of the banking parasites and associated gang members that have grown to destroy the world. ;D
If it works as promised, with a limited currency other Bitcoin currencies will emerge as use expands. Relative valuations between them will vary with age, reputation, advertising, speculation, types of users, etc.
Silver Shield
4th June 2011, 11:29 AM
it is funny how I naturally don't look into things like this because the whole thing seems fishy.
It is only when enough people go what is with this or you have to see this do I really even pay attention to it.
So 5 minutes into the bitcoin idea and this reeks of the same carbon trading ponzi scheme that the elite were trying to sell.
With a limited amount of credits or coins and the increasing need or interest is a guaranteed rise in value.
The fact that they are going up in value does not mean they are intrinsically valuable any more than a tech stock with a .com name.
This will be one of those things that the initial buyers of this ponzi scheme will spend their time pumping the idea and enough people will "try" it and then see that they are worth more and then they will say it is awesome. Then more people will try it eventually leading to a collapse and a what were we thinking moment.
So I recommend staying away from this unless you like gambling.
In that case you should keep your money in the bank or buy stocks, forex trading or any other paper/electronic asset.
I will sleep well with physical silver.
Shami-Amourae
4th June 2011, 11:42 AM
I know. I'm fully aware of what it is (gambling.) I'm willing to take the risk. I'm not investing that much into it, and if I do start seeing it go up more I plan on selling my initial investment, and buying physical with that. That way I'll have lost nothing if it collapses. I still think it's a neat idea, and I wouldn't be shocked if this first inception fails due to some unseen weakness that arises, but it probably will be replaced by a better made system.
I do think this will be the future for liquid money, and buying things over the net. I've been dealing with virtual currencies for about 6 years now. I built my business around them. I do see them as the future, regardless whether we like/trust them or not. I don't trust them, but I do trust them more than the US Dollar, for what it's worth.
SLV^GLD
4th June 2011, 03:00 PM
One big weakness is RSA public/private key encription.
McCanney said in his last show he will be doing a broadcast that explains why it is childs play to crack the RSA codes via his ability to calculate prime numbers directly.
This whole scheme relies on the signing of the hash with your private key, if I can find that key I can spend it again and again.
That's a big, red if. I agree that long-term it IS a weakness but that can be said for ANY encryption scheme. As for Mr. McCanney, his uber secret, pay to see method has yet to be peer reviewed.
Also, http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=191.msg1585#msg1585
Bigjon
5th June 2011, 11:29 PM
One big weakness is RSA public/private key encription.
McCanney said in his last show he will be doing a broadcast that explains why it is childs play to crack the RSA codes via his ability to calculate prime numbers directly.
This whole scheme relies on the signing of the hash with your private key, if I can find that key I can spend it again and again.
That's a big, red if. I agree that long-term it IS a weakness but that can be said for ANY encryption scheme. As for Mr. McCanney, his uber secret, pay to see method has yet to be peer reviewed.
Also, http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=191.msg1585#msg1585
There are many scientific FRAUDS that are peer reviewed. I wish I could give you an example, but I can only remember that I've seen many examples of peer reviewed papers that later turned out to be blatant frauds. I believe there were some people who set out to prove the fraud of peer review and got their proof from the frauds who signed their names as having peer reviewed a paper and when the fraud was revealed those people had to admit they never even read or understood the paper in question.
http://sciencemediawatch.com/2011/03/30/scientific-fraud-the-effect-of-peer-review/
The biggest IF to me is if the Academic Establishment could prove that McCanney's method was flawed they could show the public something they would love to, that McCanney doesn't understand mathematics and has shown himself as a fraud. BUT what do we hear from the Academic Establishment... crickets chirping...chirping...
McCanneys method and proof are available for the price ($29.90 includes shipping cost) of his book, but you will never ever see it paid any lip service by those who are members of the club of the academically governed, politically correct, system of peer review.
If you read his book he shows that prime numbers follow a very distinct and repeatable pattern that can be programmed and run on a computer.
Shami-Amourae
6th June 2011, 12:31 AM
BTW, have you heard of "Silk Road"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQFl6wBi-KM
vacuum
6th June 2011, 12:39 AM
This will be one of those things that the initial buyers of this ponzi scheme will spend their time pumping the idea and enough people will "try" it and then see that they are worth more and then they will say it is awesome.
It is also useful for.....buying stuff anonymously. Like if you want to buy silver, online, without a record.
osoab
8th June 2011, 01:14 PM
This goes along with Shami-Amourae's video above. Nice angle using "the drug trade" as a reason.
Senators seek crackdown on "Bitcoin" currency (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Senators-seek-crackdown-on-rb-4251307580.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode=)
ST. LOUIS (Thomson Reuters Accelus) - Two senators are pressing federal authorities to crack down on an online black market and "untraceable" digital currency known as Bitcoins after reports that they are used to buy illegal drugs anonymously.
Democratic Senators Charles Schumer of New York and Joe Manchin of West Virginia wrote to Attorney General Eric Holder and Drug Enforcement Administration head Michele Leonhart in a letter that expressed concerns about the underground website "Silk Road" and the use of Bitcoins to make purchases there.
The letter prompted a discussion among Bitcoin enthusiasts about whether the government was capable of closing related bank accounts and thereby stifling the currency.
The senators released a copy of their letter on Monday. It cites recent media reports that some tech-savvy individuals were using an "anonymizing network" known as Tor to gain clandestine access to Silk Road and buy illegal drugs.
Silk Road buyers pay with Bitcoins and sellers mail the drugs, the Gawker blog reported. The transactions leave no traditional money trail for investigators to follow, and leave it hard to prove a package recipient knew in advance what was in a shipment.
"The only method of payment for these illegal purchases is an untraceable peer-to-peer currency known as Bitcoins. After purchasing Bitcoins through an exchange, a user can create an account on Silk Road and start purchasing illegal drugs from individuals around the world and have them delivered to their homes within days," the senators' letter states. "We urge you to take immediate action and shut down the Silk Road network."
The DEA is "absolutely" concerned about Bitcoins and other anonymous digital currencies, agency spokeswoman Dawn Dearden said when asked for a response to the senators' concerns.
"The DEA is constantly evaluating and analyzing new technologies and schemes perpetrated by drug trafficking networks. While we won't confirm or deny the existence of specific investigations, DEA is well aware of these emerging threats and we will act accordingly," she said.
Silk Road may be hard to close. It could easily move from server to server around the globe and change its Web address and name at will, while remaining accessible through Tor.
However, Bitcoins must be purchased with real money; of late, they have been selling for roughly $10 each.
Therefore, there are exchanges with bank accounts, such as the Mt. Gox Bitcoin Exchange, that the Justice Department and other law enforcement agencies may be able to target. It is this weak link that worries the currency's enthusiasts.
A discussion thread this week on the primary Bitcoin forum was titled "Will Mt. Gox US Bank accounts eventually get frozen?" Some speculated that if the government bans transactions involving Bitcoin exchanges, a layer of shell companies might allow them to continue.
One user described this process as simply "growing pains" and asserted that the government "can't stop a peer-to-peer service."
U.S. law enforcers might have difficulty stopping Bitcoins without help from their peers in other countries.
While little information about Bitcoin exchanges is publicly available, an item posted on a website called Bitcoin Watch states that Mt. Gox's bank account is in Japan, and anecdotal evidence suggests many other exchanges operate outside of the US.
Mt. Gox's website does not list a phone number, representatives could not be reached via email.
(Editing by Randall Mikkelsen)
Shami-Amourae
8th June 2011, 01:20 PM
However, Bitcoins must be purchased with real money; of late, they have been selling for roughly $10 each.
It's actually @$31 a BitCoin recently.
I'm still supporting this. I welcome these thugs to try to attack BitCoin since it will create the Streisand Effect and legitimize BitCoin much faster. We can destroy the globalists easily by simply taking the control of money back to the people, and they will be broken.
Hatha Sunahara
8th June 2011, 09:00 PM
I'm cheering on this development too. I'm really pleased that technology is being used to preserve privacy instead of tearing it down.
Hatha
SLV^GLD
9th June 2011, 04:28 PM
prime numbers follow a very distinct and repeatable pattern that can be programmed and run on a computer.
If this were true then why are we not seeing a rapid proliferation of new prime numbers being published by McCanney and regular joe's with a spare computer laying around? There's plenty of monetary incentive to produce these primes and proof of their existence is simplistic.
Bigjon
10th June 2011, 01:45 PM
If this were true then why are we not seeing a rapid proliferation of new prime numbers being published by McCanney and regular joe's with a spare computer laying around? There's plenty of monetary incentive to produce these primes and proof of their existence is simplistic.
Please show me anyone who is offering money for a list of prime numbers?
SLV^GLD
10th June 2011, 02:03 PM
http://www.eff.org/awards/coop
Bigjon
10th June 2011, 04:56 PM
http://www.eff.org/awards/coop
I'm tempted to try for that myself, but first I'm going to ask McCanney if he is aware of this.
Bigjon
10th June 2011, 05:19 PM
I'm tempted to try for that myself, but first I'm going to ask McCanney if he is aware of this.
Damn, where is that programming manual, that I put away 18 years ago?
Bigjon
10th June 2011, 05:47 PM
http://www.eff.org/awards/coop
The rules seem to exclude McCanney's method, unless he makes it public.
Please Read This First!
EFF has already received and rejected dozens of incorrect or deficient claims. Please read and follow all of the rules before submitting a claim. Please note especially:
There is no award available for the discovery of a mathematical technique, algorithm, or theorem. We will not offer a payment or reward for the discovery of a mathematical technique, unless that technique is used to determine a specific prime number in compliance with all the other rules below. New discoveries in number theory or other branches of mathematics should be directed to an appropriate forum, but we are unable to provide any reward for them or any evaluation of their merits.
There is no award available for merely knowing how to find or test for large prime numbers. Methods for finding large prime numbers have been known for many years; however, all known methods require substantial amounts of computer time (years of computation on current hardware). Our awards require that you find a particular prime number, not simply know a way to find prime numbers. We already have well-proven and well-understood computer programs capable of finding prime numbers -- they just take too long to work. Thus, a computer program that would eventually find or verify prime numbers is not, by itself, sufficient to qualify for an award.
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The rules below will not be waived or varied. In particular, submissions that have not yet been validated by peer review will be rejected.
(Catch-22, must be peer reviewed, but we won't peer review McCanney's work, because he's not a club member)
EFF does not offer assistance in determining the correctness or incorrectness of a submission. EFF appreciates the creativity of researchers in trying to make progress in number theory and computer science, but asks that researchers respect the fact that our awards have a limited scope and purpose and will not be awarded for other kinds of work, however novel or useful. We are not a mathematics research organization and are not in a position to help validate, evaluate, confirm, publicize, or reward new mathematical research.
For an example of a previous valid, successful claim, see Mersenne Research, Inc.'s 2009 claim for 243112609-1. Note that this claim includes each of the elements required below.
Official EFF Cooperative Computing Award Rules
EFF establishes four computation awards
EFF will award $50,000 to the first individual or group who discovers a
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[[NOTE: The $50,000 award was given out on Apr. 6, 2000]]
EFF will award $100,000 to the first individual or group who discovers a
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[[NOTE: The $100,000 award was given out on Oct. 22, 2009]]
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For example, if you happen to discover a prime with 1,000,000,000 or more decimal digits before the $150,000 award is claimed, you will be eligible for the $250,000 award only. Once an award is paid out, all other current and future claims become ineligible for that particular award.
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The primality proof must be a deterministic proof for a distinct integer
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Your claim must explicitly identify a distinct prime number. For example, claims involving Mills' Theorem real number or Matijasevic polynomial without providing a specific solution will not be accepted.
Full disclosure is required
In the interest of promoting the state of the art of computation, those receiving EFF Computation Awards must allow EFF to freely publish their methods, algorithms, source code, scripts and detailed descriptions of hardware without undue restrictions or costs. EFF's publication of this information is intended give others the opportunity to replicate the discovery, as well as to provide a foundation for improving on the results.
Proofs that are "for sale" are not acceptable. EFF will not consider proofs that are proprietary or that are encumbered with restrictions that get in the way of their unrestricted re-distribution.
What to include in your submission
Bigjon
10th June 2011, 05:48 PM
continued...
Your claim must have each the following 7 items. Please reference each of these 7 items in your claim:
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The EFF reserves the right to require you to provide URL of the decimal expansion of the prime number.
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In other words, tell us:
How did you prove primality?
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Did you pre-screen potential candidates by eliminating values with small factors?
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In addition see any of the many Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) available on the Web. Ideas and remarks on prime numbers and number theory should be posted to the appropriate newsgroup or sent to the appropriate refereed academic journal.
Updates to the rules
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Bigjon
10th June 2011, 06:17 PM
Also, http://forum.bitcoin.org/?topic=191.msg1585#msg1585
I am not questioning SHA256. I am questioning the method for protecting double spending, the spending part of BitCoins where RSA encryption is used.
Olmstein
11th June 2011, 04:19 PM
So what's the current value of a nerd dollar? Still going parabolic?
Shami-Amourae
11th June 2011, 04:51 PM
No, it was clearly pumped and dumped the past few days. Not very shocked, it's such a tiny market, so there's going to be extreme volatility that even us silver investors aren't used to. Overall trend is still up for the past week, and if you look at the long term graphs it's just a small spike up and down, from the slower upwards trend. It's sort of like the shakeup that happened in silver, with all the Bitcoin haters going "See told ya' so!" They are parroting the MSM w/ the Silver-is-a-bubble stuff. I've seen this story before.
All the weak hands are leaving and it's a good buying opportunity. I'm glad it had this correction since it means I can buy more and the foundations of the price can be built on more stable foundation. I know the risk. I know it's not backed by anything. I only know that if it works it will greatly empower the Individual, and that's what it's about for me, and many of us who support it. I trust technology and I'm always the first to embrace it. Others aren't like me, and I understand that too.
The biggest problem I see now is how Bitcoin tears apart a lot of the Gold/Silver community, where most are against it. It's more of something that nerds/programmers like me only seem to get, and for everyone else seems like a scam. It's something that I fear will cause a lot of conflict in the coming months/years. It probably will fail in the end and something much better, but similar will replace it, learning off of the mistakes of the past. The free market will decide the proper decentralized virtual currency. The point is humanity needs a decentralized currency that can be digitally transacted anonymously. We will achieve this one way or another. If Bitcoin isn't it, myself or someone like me will figure out a way to make a better version. The coming revolution wont be won with guns, or protesting in the streets, or anything like we've seen in the past. It will be fought and won by nerds/technology. This is the battleground of the future as the paradigm of an industrial world shifts to an informational world. The future is now.
ximmy
11th June 2011, 04:55 PM
dwolla hasn't confirmed my bank acct. info. as of yet, or I'd have bought in today...
Hopefully the correction will last through the beginning of next week...
Shami-Amourae
11th June 2011, 05:12 PM
It can take up to a week unfortunately. The move from Dwolla to Mt. Gox usually takes a few minutes to an hour though.
sirgonzo420
11th June 2011, 09:44 PM
Also, BTC can be bought "over-the-counter" at the bitcoin OTC IRC channel. Various forms of payment are accepted.
Twisted Titan
11th June 2011, 11:44 PM
Why is it that everytime I here of Bitcoins I always think Farmville Dollars???
Shami-Amourae
11th June 2011, 11:54 PM
Why is it that everytime I here of Bitcoins I always think Farmville Dollars???
This?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHcS_UvRxCM
sirgonzo420
7th November 2013, 08:28 AM
So, did anybody figure out what the deal with Bitcoin is?
Olmstein
12th November 2017, 03:20 PM
So, did anybody figure out what the deal with Bitcoin is?
No, but I'm kicking myself for not buying a few thousand back in the day.
EE_
12th November 2017, 03:28 PM
Crypto Chaos Explained - Bitcoin Crashes As 'Cash' Tops Ether For First Time
by Tyler Durden
Nov 12, 2017 11:32 AM
Bitcoin collapsed overnight, trading as low as $5555 - down 30% from its highs - before bouncing back above $6000, as Bitcoin Cash soared to as high as $2450 (4 times its price on Friday), overtaking Ethereum briefly as the second largest market cap cryptocurrency.
image courtesy of CoinTelegraph
Bitcoin has lost around $30 billion in market cap, but found buying interest as it ripped below $6000 and has stabilized this morning
Bitcoin Cash exploded in thje last two days - quadrupling in price at one point to over $2400 as Bitcoin crashed.
As Coin Telegraph reports, the sharp rise in Bitcoin Cash's price has come at the expense of Bitcoin. Bitcoin’s price has been on a steady downtrend ever since the Segwit2X fork was cancelled. A lot of people had bought Bitcoins in the expectation that they would get free Segwit2x coins after the fork. While market observers had expected some of this hot money to flow into altcoins once the Segwit2X fork happened/got cancelled, Bitcoin Cash seems to have been the main, but not only, beneficiary. The combined price of Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash is over $8,000, which is not very different from the price on Friday.
That surge in Bitcoin Cash pushed its market cap above Ethereum for a brief time...
All of this chaos has left many wondering what is going on. Arjun Balaji provides some much-needed context for what is occurring in the crypto space...
1/August, Bitcoin forks, spawning off a fork that's supported by a minority of miners. It's self sustaining though the rate at which Bitcoin blocks are mined is variable and the price tanks. It was initially trading on the futures market prior to the fork between 0.05 and 0.07BTC. The motivations for the initial minority fork are complicated and nuanced, but they were largely driven by the incentives of trading on the futures market prior to the fork between 0.05 and 0.07BTC. The motivations for the initial minority fork are complicated and nuanced, but they were largely driven by the incentives of Chinese mining and Bitcoin businesses whose operation depended on the low transaction fees in the network (given Bitcoin txn fees were approaching $10).
2/ When Bitcoin Cash (BCH) tokens were finally accessible, there was a rush to go liquidate the tokens on an exchange. With really thin orderbooks, price shot up to 0.26 on the BTC:BCH pair, but had a slow decline over the next 2 months, bottoming out around 0.05ish. This is all the while Bitcoin continued it's meteoric rise to $8k+.
3/ However, "Segwit2X" (B2X), another long schemed fork was still planned. This fork had even less popularity, reflected on the futures market, but had a lot of support from many mainstream Bitcoin businesses. It had ideological overlap with Bitcoin Cash: increase the block size to lower transaction costs on the Bitcoin network. Many users of Bitcoin who were worried about the merits of the technical block size increase were vocal about avoiding these forks and still maintain conviction that lowering transaction costs through the Bitcoin network is possible through some recent upgrades.
4/ As the date for B2X fork grew closer, Bitcoin Cash eventually bottomed out. The market's assumption here was that there is no need for 2 forks with ideological overlap to exist.
4a/ However, in a sudden move, there was a cancellation of the fork on November 8th, with much of the support of the 2X crowd going into Bitcoin Cash. This started a fantastic price spike--in USD, from $400-500 up to $2800 (as of last night) and in Bitcoin, even higher, with orders executing between 0.4-0.5BTC. As of now, it seems to be stable at low volume —0.3BTC.
5/ Many long-time holders and significant Bitcoin "whales" noted online how they are planning on selling BTC and buying BCH. Most notably, Roger Ver moved long-time cold storage Bitcoin holdings totaling over $250M to Bitfinex. Not sure if this has been executed upon or not, but the presumption is that he is either buying BCH or selling BTC for USD. The goal of this (IMO) is to generate momentum and the reflexivity needed to create a "flip" between BTC and BCH.
6a/ It seems like 1) miners incentives are aligned with BCH for now but it's unclear if it's just because of the volatile difficulty or if it is permanent;
6b/ 2) money is dumping out of BTC into BCH. When/if BCH becomes more profitable, miners will follow -- at that point, do businesses like Coinbase recognize Bitcoin Cash as the canonical Bitcoin? No idea, but it'll be interesting to see play out.
7/ Bitcoin Cash has a planned hard fork on Nov 13th to adjust the volatile difficulty of mining. It remains to be seen whether (at a stable price), post-fork, miner incentives will remain as strong as before. If they are anticipating a large increase in price or have spent the last couple of months accumulating BCH at a low price like many have hypothesized, that could play a role as well.
Arjun concludes, net-net, this is a mess for most mainstream users (e.g. my dad), who have no idea what's happening and potentially don't own Bitcoin Cash.
The end of Bitcoin (BTC) and rise of Bitcoin Cash could hurt these users, who potentially bought Bitcoin on Coinbase in August and don't know about these risks. This puts the emerging futures and ETFs in an interesting picture.
* * *
The various factions within the crypto space are increasing their rhetoric... (as CoinDesk reports)
When asked about the move Jiang Zhuoer, founder of bitcoin mining pool BTC.Top, said simply that "2x fans" are moving both funds and mining hardware to bitcoin cash.
"BTC is going to die," Zhuoer said. Hapio Yang, CEO of mining pool operator ViaBTC, responded similarly, indicating he believes that businesses and investors are now migrating funds to bitcoin cash.
"I think more and more bitcoin holders are starting to understand what is the real bitcoin," he said via WeChat.
"I think a positive feedback loop has been created. This is waking people up to the shaky foundations BTC is built on," he said.
However, as CoinDesk notes, there remains a great deal of skepticism over cash...
Jack Liao, the CEO of Hong Kong-based mining firm LightningASIC, for instance, sought to frame the idea that the bitcoin cash price increase represented any real uptick in interest in the project as "total bullshit."
For those following the scaling debate, Bitmain's conduct has been one of the larger contentious narrative points, and Liao (like others) believes the explosion seen in the bitcoin cash market value is nothing more than an orchestrated bid by the firm (and its supporters) to prop up the market.
"Many, many investors just see the change in hash rate," he said. "But they cannot support such a big bitcoin cash price."
Beijing-based over-the-counter Zhao Dong reported a similar sentiment in some circles, crediting the price to manipulation by miners and investors who have supported Segwit2x and bitcoin cash in the past. Bitmain and Ver were both signatories of the agreement that sparked the 2x software.
"They have money, they have hash power, they have everything need to pump the bitcoin cash price," he said.
Finally, to clarify, Willy Woo, recently named one of CoinDesk's Top 5 Token Analysts of 2017, sees the price move as perhaps one to watch. In contrast to other alternative cryptocurrencies that he said may lack value propositions, he went so far as to color bitcoin cash as a more nuanced option.
"It's backed by a lot of money from China controlling its price and supporting its network. If you buy bitcoin cash, you are betting that China wants it to dominate. That's a strategic and geopolitical bet," he told CoinDesk.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-12/crypto-chaos-explained-bitcoin-crashes-cash-tops-ether-first-time
Cebu_4_2
12th November 2017, 05:23 PM
If you chart it, it is linear. If you day trade you just got fucked. It's still a hold. As Olmstein said, I am still kicking my own ass.
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