On faith

[G2Rad]

Some people have faith in their feeling ( of beeing saved, of being accepted by Jesus, of being loved by God, etc.).
Some people have faith in what their believe.
Some people have faith in what they hope for.

All that is Satanic.

The faith must be placed in facts.

If your faith is placed in thing that are not facts, you are deceived by Satan.

The facts are recordered in the Bible.

Faith is confidence in God that leads us to believe His word, the Bible.

Faith is also belief, fidelity and loyalty.

(Heb 11:1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

if you don't have a word of God you can not have faith

because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17)

[Horn]

fides per reddo

[Gaillo]

...Faith is confidence in God that leads us to believe His word, the Bible

Explained pictorially:

http://www.wayofthemind.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/infalliblebible.jpg

[G2Rad]

...Faith is confidence in God that leads us to believe His word, the Bible

Explained pictorially:


the explanation is baloney ;D

[wrs]

Some people have faith in their feeling ( of beeing saved, of being accepted by Jesus, of being loved by God, etc.).
Some people have faith in what their believe.
Some people have faith in what they hope for.

All that is Satanic.

The faith must be placed in facts.

If your faith is placed in thing that are not facts, you are deceived by Satan.

The facts are recordered in the Bible.

Faith is confidence in God that leads us to believe His word, the Bible.

Faith is also belief, fidelity and loyalty.

(Heb 11:1) Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

if you don't have a word of God you can not have faith

because faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (Rom 10:17)

This is the baloney.

First of all, there are no facts recorded in the Bible, not one that I am aware of. There are simply a bunch of stories that cannot be verified as history or fact. Second, faith is belief in something that you don't understand, it's not based on facts. Beliefs are things that you accept as truth and they are what govern your life.

You believe the Bible is the word of God but you cannot prove it so you are accepting the bible on faith but not facts. You don't even know that God exists, you just believe that to be the case. The God you believe exists is substantially different than the God many other people in the world believe exists so whose God is the fact and whose is the belief?

Beliefs guide a person's life and if you don't believe in something, you have no purpose in life. That is the real truth so you should examine your beliefs and see where you are allowing them to take you.

[G2Rad]

You believe the Bible is the word of God but you cannot prove it

You got it backwards, I believe the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it.

[wrs]

You got it backwards, I believe the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it.

Nonsense, you would have to disprove every other book that makes conflicting claims and you would have to demonstrate factual basis for the claims in the bible. You don't have enough time in this life to do even a fraction of that.

You may be able to deceive yourself into thinking you have proven it but you would never prove it to my satisfaction or to that of those who don't believe as you do.

[G2Rad]

You got it backwards, I believe the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it.

you would have to disprove every other book that makes conflicting claims and you would have to demonstrate factual basis for the claims in the bible.

yes. you have to do all that to have faith and because you had not done so, you never had faith

[dys]

You got it backwards, I believe the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it.

Nonsense, you would have to disprove every other book that makes conflicting claims and you would have to demonstrate factual basis for the claims in the bible. You don't have enough time in this life to do even a fraction of that.

You may be able to deceive yourself into thinking you have proven it but you would never prove it to my satisfaction or to that of those who don't believe as you do.


I used to be one of those that didn't believe it as much as he does. Now I do. Never say never.

dys

[Half Sense]

You believe the Bible is the word of God but you cannot prove it

You got it backwards, I believe the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it.


I would certainly welcome any proof.

[G2Rad]

You got it backwards, I believe the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it.

Nonsense, you would have to disprove every other book that makes conflicting claims and you would have to demonstrate factual basis for the claims in the bible. You don't have enough time in this life to do even a fraction of that.

You may be able to deceive yourself into thinking you have proven it but you would never prove it to my satisfaction or to that of those who don't believe as you do.

I used to be one of those that didn't believe it as much as he does. Now I do. Never say never.
dys


Me too. I also was one of them. I was mistaken.

[G2Rad]

You believe the Bible is the word of God but you cannot prove it
You got it backwards, I believe the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it.

I would certainly welcome any proof.


That's how I started 8 years ago.

Dedicate your time, open up the Bible, study and check why people are/have been "so crazy about the Bible".

You think us stupid? ;D

Look, 10 years back 99% of your friends laughed at your “stupid” silver bricks and your tin-foil believes in “conspiracy theories”.

So, today tell me, who was right, them or you?

Now you are sitting in that brainwash mainstream Marxist-socialist-humanist propaganda telling you there is no God and there are no facts, telling us we are stupid?

They want you to fight God for them; they want to take you to hell; and you are like little robot with all thoughts implanted into you from day one.

They perfected the mind control to such extend, that the moment someone talks Bible to you, you intellectually smell some rotten disgusting stink. Am I right? Is that how you feel? That’s what the system does its subjects. The system will force all sorts of “Christian” religions into you over and over and over again to train you to reject it, to train you to feel that intelectual stench;. to build your immunity to the truth; and to take you to hell.

[wrs]

I think you meant to attribute HalfSense on your reply. Remember, I have already been where you are now, 20 years ago.

[G2Rad]

I think you meant to attribute HalfSense on your reply. Remember, I have already been where you are now, 20 years ago.


you never been there
you said that you saved yourself, without any help from the Bible
Therefore, according to the Bible, your "faith" had nothing to do with Christianity

you've been victimized by one of those fake over-the-counter Christianities that are so abound in the system.

I agree with you that your "Christianity" is fake, I am glad you spotted it and I congratulate you on exiting it.

[G2Rad]

You believe the Bible is the word of God but you cannot prove it
You got it backwards, I believe the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it.

I would certainly welcome any proof.


Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out .........

[wrs]

you never been there
you said that you saved yourself, without any help from the Bible
Therefore, according to the Bible, your "faith" had nothing to do with Christianity


You seem to be very, very, confused about the role of the bible in salvation according to the Christian religion. The bible is simply a set of reports on what happened in the life of Jesus and the early church. It doesn't save anyone. So let me ask you, does the Bible save you or is it something else? What exactly is it that saves you? What would you tell a person who thought they needed saving when they ask, how do I get saved? Assuming arguendo that there is no bible in existence, i.e. it's 200 AD.

[G2Rad]

you never been there
you said that you saved yourself, without any help from the Bible
Therefore, according to the Bible, your "faith" had nothing to do with Christianity

You seem to be very, very, confused about the role of the bible in salvation according to the Christian religion.

you are confused. I never claimed to have anything to do with so-called "Christian" religion.
and you keep repeting the same stuf over and over and over again.
You are of your fake religion. I don't share that religion of yours. I never had anything to do with that confused religious past of yours.

You on your own admited that your Christianity was a confusion.

Then you got unconfused. good!
You got out of your Christianity! Congratulations!

Don't teach me how to get properly confused into your version of Christian religion.
That is ridiculous.
Can you even think logicaly?



The bible is simply a set of reports on what happened in the life of Jesus and the early church. It doesn't save anyone.

"the bible is simply a set of reports" because wrs' former religion, (which he denied) says so
"God is figment of your imagination", because wrs says so.
There is no such thing as Word of God, because wrs' former religion, (which he denied) says so

light does not exist because wrs can not see it.

Great teachings.
People will like that.
You will have a lot of followers

[wrs]

Don't teach me how to get properly confused into your version of Christian religion.
That is ridiculous.
Can you even think logicaly?

Well apparently you are off on another tangent here. I asked you a simple question about how you view salvation and you don't seem to want to answer it. I was simply trying to get a handle on how you view the role of the bible in salvation and how exactly one is saved. You don't have to answer if you don't want to, I understand it might be an overly complex answer that doesn't make a lot of sense.

[D sciple]

you never been there
you said that you saved yourself, without any help from the Bible
Therefore, according to the Bible, your "faith" had nothing to do with Christianity


You seem to be very, very, confused about the role of the bible in salvation according to the Christian religion. The bible is simply a set of reports on what happened in the life of Jesus and the early church. It doesn't save anyone. So let me ask you, does the Bible save you or is it something else? What exactly is it that saves you? What would you tell a person who thought they needed saving when they ask, how do I get saved? Assuming arguendo that there is no bible in existence, i.e. it's 200 AD.



Are you denying the existence of the Old Testament pre 200 AD?

[StreetsOfGold]

This is the baloney.

First of all, there are no facts recorded in the Bible, not one that I am aware of.

No facts? Obviously you never read it and are puppeting a bunch of morons.

Here's just a brief few..

Genesis 1 (you don't even need to read far) records God making everything in 6 days and resting the 7th, thus we have a 7 day week. That is a FACT!

Lev. 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood:
Science took a while to catch up on this one but the FACT is without your blood you die, that is a FACT!

Job 38:16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea?
Here's another one that science took a long time to find out but the Bible had it recorded thousands of years ago. The sea is fed by springs, that's a FACT

and as I said that's just a few for starters so next time you read what some idiotic moron says, check them out before puppeting their stupidity

[G2Rad]

Don't teach me how to get properly confused into your version of Christian religion.
That is ridiculous.
Can you even think logicaly?

Well apparently you are off on another tangent here. I asked you a simple question about how you view salvation and you don't seem to want to answer it. I was simply trying to get a handle on how you view the role of the bible in salvation and how exactly one is saved. You don't have to answer if you don't want to, I understand it might be an overly complex answer that doesn't make a lot of sense.


That is true.
I don't want to answer because I suspect mockery is the only purpose of your asking.

Yet I will answer anyway.

It is not complex.

There is Gospel, written in the Bible. Here it is:

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
He was buried, and he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

How do we know that that is truth? We take the Bible and pick it apart and plow it long and wide to see whether "according to the scriptures" part is true.

Whether or not all of the Old Testament was really message about Christ's coming and his death.

When we find out that all of his life was written hundreds of years before time, including the exact date of his coming, we have facts, hard evidence that gives us confidence about authenticity and origins of the document.

That based-on-facts confidence is faith.

[wrs]

Are you denying the existence of the Old Testament pre 200 AD?

I said assuming arguendo which has a clear meaning, you are raising a point not relevant to the discussion.

I might point out that the people that wrote the OT don't identify Jesus as the Messiah. They claim he doesn't meet the criteria, it is the writers of the NT that make the claim that they know that the OT pointed to Christ. That is irrelevant to the question that I asked though.

[D sciple]

Are you denying the existence of the Old Testament pre 200 AD?

I said assuming arguendo which has a clear meaning, you are raising a point not relevant to the discussion.

I might point out that the people that wrote the OT don't identify Jesus as the Messiah. They claim he doesn't meet the criteria, it is the writers of the NT that make the claim that they know that the OT pointed to Christ. That is irrelevant to the question that I asked though.




Yea I just was curious about the easiest part to refute (I'm kinda lazy). You did use I.E. and the Old Testament is clearly part of the Bible however.

As it turns out though, the writers (Israelites) of the Old Testament arn't who you think (or most people for that matter) they are, I.E. half caucasion half arabic turkic "Jews" as in:

Rev 2:9 ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

In reality the celto anglo saxon people are the Hebrews. http://www.jahtruth.net/abraham.htm
Theres tons of info on that site concerning this I just randomly picked that page.

[wrs]

Genesis 1 (you don't even need to read far) records God making everything in 6 days and resting the 7th, thus we have a 7 day week. That is a FACT!

First of all, the days recorded in Genesis are not 24 hour days. It's pretty clear that there weren't 24 hour days in the beginning according to that account. However, without getting into an argument over the length of the days in Genesis, suffice it to say that the seven day week has existed long before the Bible was written. The seven day week is known to have been practiced by the Babylonians who took captive the people who wrote the OT.

This is not what I would call a fact though, it's just an example of tradition being repeated by the writer of the book of Genesis.

As to the other stuff you cite as facts, they again are not facts, they are just repetition of tradition. What I am suggesting is that there don't seem to be facts of a historic nature that support any of the first five books. There are also no facts of a verifiable nature that elicit the existence of Jehovah nor of the need to serve him nor to obey his commands. The stories as written are mythical in nature, not factual. If there were material facts in the bible, it would be possible to manifest the miracles contained therein by some practice, but as far as I know, there aren't such facts. So the bible is really just a story book and no more.

When you have some facts get back to me.

[wrs]

There is Gospel, written in the Bible. Here it is:

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
He was buried, and he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

How do we know that that is truth? We take the Bible and pick it apart and plow it long and wide to see whether "according to the scriptures" part is true.

Whether or not all of the Old Testament was really message about Christ's coming and his death.

When we find out that all of his life was written hundreds of years before time, including the exact date of his coming, we have facts, hard evidence that gives us confidence about authenticity and origins of the document.

That based-on-facts confidence is faith.

No, what you are doing is allowing someone who constructed a story about a Messiah to cherry pick the writings in the OT and claim that Jesus answers to the description. It is very easy to select passages and claim that your character fits them by constructing your story so that the details match the passages in the OT. That is certainly one way to view the construction of the gospels.

The problem you have with your claims is that there were many other gospels that were not included in the Canon and which give a different picture of Jesus that is severely at odds with him as the Messiah of Israel. This is of course consistent with the FACT that the people who claim to hold the tradition of the OT and maintain it's writings, reject the Christian Jesus as the Messiah sent by Jehovah.

I am not mocking your belief, you are welcome to believe that you were born degenerate and worthless. You are welcome to believe that you are no good without a savior and that you are damned otherwise. The problem I have with Christians is that they cannot separate fact from fantasy and extend their warped beliefs to all of mankind. You have the idea that I am degenerate and damned if I don't do as you do. Thus, this makes me fair game for your hate and anger when I reject your fantasy. That to me is the dangerous aspect of Christianity.

I won't go through life thinking that I need to be forgiven by some God I don't see any evidence for and who cannot manifest himself to me through some set of facts. I need to forgive myself for the inevitable mistakes that I will make but I don't need you to tell me that some God needs to forgive me or else I will be tossed in his burning pit for some eternity that I can't comprehend after I die. This is the weakest part of Christianity and it is the part that makes it clear that it is a failed religion that operates through fear. Not unlike the govt.

[Half Sense]

You believe the Bible is the word of God but you cannot prove it
You got it backwards, I believe the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it.

I would certainly welcome any proof.


That's how I started 8 years ago.

Dedicate your time, open up the Bible, study and check why people are/have been "so crazy about the Bible".

You think us stupid? ;D

Look, 10 years back 99% of your friends laughed at your “stupid” silver bricks and your tin-foil believes in “conspiracy theories”.

So, today tell me, who was right, them or you?

Now you are sitting in that brainwash mainstream Marxist-socialist-humanist propaganda telling you there is no God and there are no facts, telling us we are stupid?

They want you to fight God for them; they want to take you to hell; and you are like little robot with all thoughts implanted into you from day one.

They perfected the mind control to such extend, that the moment someone talks Bible to you, you intellectually smell some rotten disgusting stink. Am I right? Is that how you feel? That’s what the system does its subjects. The system will force all sorts of “Christian” religions into you over and over and over again to train you to reject it, to train you to feel that intelectual stench;. to build your immunity to the truth; and to take you to hell.



If you consider the above to be proof of anything, it's no wonder you are so easily flocked and shorn.

[G2Rad]

I won't go through life thinking that I need to be forgiven by some God

that's fine with me
your stuborn refusal does not make any difference anyway
soon you will be dead and forgotten as you never existed. I will forget you too.

after that "going through life" of yours is over, you will have a change of heart concerning the "need to be forgiven".

enjoy your life yet a little while it lasts, wrs

[G2Rad]

If you consider the above to be proof of anything, it's no wonder you are so easily flocked and shorn.


huh?

[G2Rad]

If you consider the above to be proof of anything, it's no wonder you are so easily flocked and shorn.


I am not trading "proofs" here.

if you want proofs then you go and dig them up.

Its your soul on the way to Hell.

You are not my buddy and not my charity case.

Why should I bust my butt for you?

If God does not care about you, why should I?

[G2Rad]

unsaved people think that they are so precious that God can't have a sleep over them

that he loves them so much ....

he does not love you.

you are like weeds to God

Read this:

24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

[G2Rad]

Jesus said

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine

If he does not care about the world of dead, I will not be crawling on my knees begging "please please accept Jesus".

[G2Rad]

The same scenario happens over and over again, - Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out

[wrs]

that's fine with me
your stuborn refusal does not make any difference anyway
soon you will be dead and forgotten as you never existed. I will forget you too.

after that "going through life" of yours is over, you will have a change of heart concerning the "need to be forgiven".

enjoy your life yet a little while it lasts, wrs

See this is what it always boils down to with you folks. You have nothing as proof and you run off in a huff damning me to hell for not accepting your fantasy. You have no clue if what you are saying has any basis in fact because you haven't experienced death so that you can remember it clearly anymore than I have. You are living in fear of dying and your religion is a way to ease the fear but it doesn't eliminate the fact that you fear death. I don't fear death, ergo I don't need a death pacifier. Keep sucking on your pacifier and refusing to live life for what it is.

[Half Sense]

You said, "the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it."

And then you ran from that statement like it was radioactive. You can only talk in circles, and make unfounded assumptions about others. You are a hamster running on a wheel and chiding those who will not join your journey to nowhere. Enjoy the afterlife, G2.

[G2Rad]

You said, "the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it."

And then you ran from that statement like it was radioactive. You can only talk in circles, and make unfounded assumptions about others. You are a hamster running on a wheel and chiding those who will not join your journey to nowhere. Enjoy the afterlife, G2.


Half Sense, Thank you. I will.

My job is done.
I've told you where I've gotten my proofs.
They are mine.
Sorry, there is nothing more I can offer you.
I admit I've gotten no your proofs for you.
I am not a savior of souls.

[G2Rad]

man demand proofs ..... but he is the one who must prove himself before God.

man strives to discern the Bible ..... but the Bible discerns him

man think Bible is foolish ... but the man is the one who is being foolish

For the word of God is ... a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (according to Heb 4:2)

For the preaching is foolishness to them that perish (according to 1 Cor 1:18)

man tries to conquer the Bible with his mind, as he conquered nature around him

and he can't. brute-force does not work.

Man is able to conquer everything in this Universe, because the Universe was made for man.

except for the Bible.

The Bible was not for made for man.
Man was made for the Bible. Thus man fails to conquer it with his mind, intellect and education.

So, it remains locked for him, while it is open for many babies and is easy for simple, "uneducated" people whom the Book discerned and accepted

and it makes man angered, and it makes him hate

[Half Sense]

You should include the disclaimer that you will only be proving stuff TO YOURSELF.

[G2Rad]

You should include the disclaimer that you will only be proving stuff TO YOURSELF.


No problem.

Disclaimer:
You can prove stuff TO YOURSELF if you dig the Bible.

[StreetsOfGold]

Genesis 1 (you don't even need to read far) records God making everything in 6 days and resting the 7th, thus we have a 7 day week. That is a FACT!

First of all, the days recorded in Genesis are not 24 hour days. It's pretty clear that there weren't 24 hour days in the beginning according to that account. However, without getting into an argument over the length of the days in Genesis, suffice it to say that the seven day week has existed long before the Bible was written. The seven day week is known to have been practiced by the Babylonians who took captive the people who wrote the OT.

This is not what I would call a fact though, it's just an example of tradition being repeated by the writer of the book of Genesis.

As to the other stuff you cite as facts, they again are not facts, they are just repetition of tradition. What I am suggesting is that there don't seem to be facts of a historic nature that support any of the first five books. There are also no facts of a verifiable nature that elicit the existence of Jehovah nor of the need to serve him nor to obey his commands. The stories as written are mythical in nature, not factual. If there were material facts in the bible, it would be possible to manifest the miracles contained therein by some practice, but as far as I know, there aren't such facts. So the bible is really just a story book and no more.

When you have some facts get back to me.


First of all, the days recorded in Genesis are not 24 hour days.
Proof? NONE given

It's pretty clear that there weren't 24 hour days in the beginning according to that account.
Clear? How's that? Grass and trees were made on day 3 and the SUN was not made until the next day (4) if it's NOT a 24 hour period those tress would have died. GOOD THING God did it this way so infidels and gainsayors would have to jump through hoops to try and push thier poisoneous nonsense like this crap you're puppeting.
John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve HOURS in the day?
Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


However, without getting into an argument over the length of the days in Genesis, suffice it to say that the seven day week has existed long before the Bible was written. The seven day week is known to have been practiced by the Babylonians who took captive the people who wrote the OT.
You missed the point, the FACT is there IS a 7 day week and YOU SAID the Bible does NOT contain FACTS. It appears you are so consumed with disproving the Bible you have overlooked the FACTS


This is not what I would call a fact though,
IT IS A FACT, THERE IS A 7 DAY WEEK, unless you're so stupid you can't think straight


it's just an example of tradition being repeated by the writer of the book of Genesis.
A likely excuse and pure BALONEY!


As to the other stuff you cite as facts, they again are not facts,
They ARE FACTS, the life of the flesh IS in the blood and if you don't believe this FACT, just get rid of yours and see for yourself DUMBASS. The seas ARE fed from springs, this IS a FACT dumbass


they are just repetition of tradition.
another likely excuse and shear, unadulterated baloney!


What I am suggesting
You're not "suggesting" anything, you are insistig that the Bible is not what is OBVIOUSLY is. The word of God

is that there don't seem to be facts of a historic nature that support any of the first five books.
Oh, I see, it WAS the Bible and now it's just the FIRST FIVE BOOKS. I know YOUR TYPE, you are a satanic lead fool. All satanic lead fools use this SAME twisting of words and are NEVER clear in what they say. They squirm and weasel around and taut themselves as some prognosticator who has "the REAL insight" into the Bible, you're a slimy wicked devil.


There are also no facts of a verifiable nature that elicit the existence of Jehovah nor of the need to serve him nor to obey his commands.
Whatever you say... satan


The stories as written are mythical in nature, not factual.
Spoken like a TRUE NWO stooge and satan licking, hell-bound stooge

If there were material facts in the bible, it would be possible to manifest the miracles contained therein by some practice, but as far as I know, there aren't such facts.
Admitting you're stupid at this point is meaningless


So the bible is really just a story book and no more.
You're a blank fool and as good as in hell with the door shut

When you have some facts get back to me.
If you get saved, get back to me, otherswise, I'll see YOU at the White Throne judgement, I'll be one of the witnesses my saviour (and your judge), the Lord Jesus Christ calls upon to be a witness against you before you're cast into the lake of fire.

[Horn]

Insolitus lingua non audimini

[wrs]

Clear? How's that? Grass and trees were made on day 3 and the SUN was not made until the next day (4) if it's NOT a 24 hour period those tress would have died.

The trees would have died if it wasn't a 24 hour period? Sorry, that doesn't follow. You should try using some facts in your rebuttals, explain how that works if you can.


This is not what I would call a fact though,
IT IS A FACT, THERE IS A 7 DAY WEEK, unless you're so stupid you can't think straight


it's just an example of tradition being repeated by the writer of the book of Genesis.
A likely excuse and pure BALONEY!



A seven day week is what we have, that is a fact. It isn't a fact that the earth and everything in it was made in seven 24 hour days, that is possibly the most ridiculous story that has ever been told and people who believe it are setting aside reason for credulity because of beliefs. The thing that the bible is attempting to establish as a fact is that the earth and everything on it was created complete and whole in 168 hours which is physically impossible. We are talking trees and animals that are full grown in complete contradiction to how everything else is observed to work. It's a story, not a fact, live with it.



As to the other stuff you cite as facts, they again are not facts,
They ARE FACTS, the life of the flesh IS in the blood and if you don't believe this FACT, just get rid of yours and see for yourself DUMBASS. The seas ARE fed from springs, this IS a FACT dumbass



So all you have is name calling? The bible doesn't have facts in it. It is a book of stories and if there is something in a story that is true like the moon comes out at night or the sun shines in the daytime that is just a reflection of the way things are. It isn't a fact that the bible introduces as a fact, it is just mentioned in passing.

The life of the flesh? What the heck is that? You don't know what makes life in a human, medical science isn't even certain which is why they have a massive check list to declare a person brain dead. The person that is brain dead still has blood but they have no life. So to say the life of the flesh is in the blood is an incorrect conclusion. You are wrong but I will refrain from calling you a name even though you richly deserve it.

Now as to the seas being fed by springs, it's also fed by rivers and by rain, so what? If the bible stated that it rained and water fell on the ground, who cares? The bible says that the sun went backwards but there is no way that it can be considered a fact because there are no plausible circumstances under which it could occur. To consider that the bible is factual is the same thing as saying that Jack and the Beanstalk is factual. It's impossible to prove that it's a fact and the details in the story are outlandish.


you are insistig that the Bible is not what is OBVIOUSLY is. The word of God

I am indeed saying that it isn't the word of God, it was written by men and most of the OT is an obvious redaction of multiple different manuscripts of uncertain origin. As to the NT, many of the books are forgeries, how is that the word of God?


Admitting you're stupid at this point is meaningless


So the bible is really just a story book and no more.
You're a blank fool and as good as in hell with the door shut


This is where it always ends up with Christians, they get very angry when they are called on their nonsense and then declare damnation against the person that is the butt of their anger. Sorry pal, it is you that is out of touch with reality and you are wasting your life in anger and hatred pretending you are holy. Your problem is that you can't live with yourself and so you have something that tells you it's OK to be that way, your religious beliefs. Well I have news for you, your religious beliefs are not doing you any good, they are harming you. It's clear in your response you are not a whole person.

[Gaillo]

StreetsOfGold,
Multiple personal attacks in your post. See you in 3 days... the 24 hour kind! ;)

[Book]

You said, "the Bible is the word of God because I can prove it."

And then you ran from that statement like it was radioactive. You can only talk in circles, and make unfounded assumptions about others.



I agree. You nailed it. He offers no proof whatsoever. You shall hereby henceforth be known to me as Full Sense.

|--0--|

[Book]

How do we know that that is truth? We take the Bible and pick it apart and plow it long and wide to see whether "according to the scriptures" part is true.



https://pseudoastro.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/circular-reasoning-in-creationism.jpg

Your post just "proved" this image.

:D

[G2Rad]

How do we know that that is truth? We take the Bible and pick it apart and plow it long and wide to see whether "according to the scriptures" part is true.



https://pseudoastro.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/circular-reasoning-in-creationism.jpg

Your post just "proved" this image.

:D


how it "proved" that image?

how could you repead something as stupid as that again?

Bible is the word of God NOT because is says so! Get it. Bible is the word of God because beyond any doubt the author of it knew the future.

[Book]

How do we know that that is truth? We take the Bible and pick it apart and plow it long and wide to see whether "according to the scriptures" part is true.



https://pseudoastro.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/circular-reasoning-in-creationism.jpg

Your post just "proved" this image.

:D


Bible is the word of God NOT because is says so! Get it. Bible is the word of God because beyond any doubt the author of it knew the future.



Who is the author?

:)

[Horn]

Who is the author?

The Red Hot Chili Peppers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5_fDqqRCfM

[wrs]

Bible is the word of God because beyond any doubt the author of it knew the future.


Ever heard of divination? The future is known to no one but some can foretell certain events. The future can always change, it's not set in stone and any prediction of the future is subject to not being fulfilled. Even your God in the OT changed it's mind on more than one occasion which makes it clear that the future isn't certain.

So your reasoning is specious. I figured we would get down to this as the basis of your belief. It's simply circular though. The story of Jesus in the NT was written after the books in the OT and so it was easy for the authors of the cherry picked gospels that are in the NT to make Jesus look as though he had fulfilled some projections from the OT.

You might try reading some of the gospels that aren't part of the NT but were contemporaneous with the ones that were. You might also read up on how those four gospels were written and note well that Mark is the basis for Matthew and Luke with John being substantially different in character and content from the other three. It's pretty much two different Jesus between the synoptic gospels and John.

[Book]

Bible is the word of God because beyond any doubt the author of it knew the future.



...So your reasoning is specious. I figured we would get down to this as the basis of your belief. It's simply circular though...



That's why I zoomed in on it. That's all it is...circular.

:)

[Trinity]

Pray the Rosary.

[G2Rad]

Bible is the word of God because beyond any doubt the author of it knew the future.



...So your reasoning is specious. I figured we would get down to this as the basis of your belief. It's simply circular though...



That's why I zoomed in on it. That's all it is...circular.

:)


it is not circular.

Starting without presumptions and taking authorship by God as unproven, by facts we arrive to the conclusion that Bible is the word of God Almighty.

[G2Rad]

Bible is the word of God because beyond any doubt the author of it knew the future.


Ever heard of divination?

Of course I did.

There are Nostradamuses and wannabees of all sorts. Yet none had 100% success rate. usually it is more like 50/50.

[G2Rad]

For those that post that silly circular reasoning chart over and over again:

Definition:

Circular reasoning is a formal logical fallacy in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises.

[wrs]

Yet none had 100% success rate. usually it is more like 50/50.

Well you seem lacking in familiarity with the bible since it doesn't have anywhere near 100% accuracy. For example, consider the very first passage in Revelation i.e.

Rev 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John

So it would appear that either the angel is a farce, or the book itself is a farce. Since it was presumably written almost 1900 years ago, I would have to call it an epic fail. Shortly means shortly, there is no quibbling about that. Of course I am sure you have some convenient rationalization but that's just your cognitive dissonance working to distort the facts to suit your beliefs.

[Book]

...by facts we arrive to the conclusion that Bible is the word of God Almighty.



Post the "facts".

:)

[Book]

Circular reasoning is a formal logical fallacy in which the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in one of the premises.



See the post above.

:D

[wrs]

the word of God Almighty

Who in the heck is God Almighty? The one in the bible is just one of a pantheon of about 70 gods known as Elohim. The boss of them is Elyon but that isn't the one that is the boss of Abraham and his descendants.

[G2Rad]

Post the "facts".


Here you go:

Num 1:19 As the LORD commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai.
Num 1:20 And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:21 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:23 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
Num 1:24 Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:25 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty.
Num 1:26 Of the children of Judah, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:27 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Num 1:28 Of the children of Issachar, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:29 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Issachar, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:30 Of the children of Zebulun, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:31 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Zebulun, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:32 Of the children of Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:33 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:34 Of the children of Manasseh, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:35 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Manasseh, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
Num 1:36 Of the children of Benjamin, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:37 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Benjamin, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:38 Of the children of Dan, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:39 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Dan, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
Num 1:40 Of the children of Asher, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:41 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Asher, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:42 Of the children of Naphtali, throughout their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:43 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Naphtali, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:44 These are those that were numbered, which Moses and Aaron numbered, and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: each one was for the house of his fathers.
Num 1:45 So were all those that were numbered of the children of Israel, by the house of their fathers, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war in Israel;
Num 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 1:47 But the Levites after the tribe of their fathers were not numbered among them.
Num 1:48 For the LORD had spoken unto Moses, saying,
Num 1:49 Only thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, neither take the sum of them among the children of Israel:
Num 1:50 But thou shalt appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony, and over all the vessels thereof, and over all things that belong to it: they shall bear the tabernacle, and all the vessels thereof; and they shall minister unto it, and shall encamp round about the tabernacle.
Num 1:51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Num 1:52 And the children of Israel shall pitch their tents, every man by his own camp, and every man by his own standard, throughout their hosts.
Num 1:53 But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.
Num 1:54 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did they.


Num 2:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.
Num 2:3 And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.
Num 2:4 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Num 2:5 And those that do pitch next unto him shall be the tribe of Issachar: and Nethaneel the son of Zuar shall be captain of the children of Issachar.
Num 2:6 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:7 Then the tribe of Zebulun: and Eliab the son of Helon shall be captain of the children of Zebulun.
Num 2:8 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:9 All that were numbered in the camp of Judah were an hundred thousand and fourscore thousand and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. These shall first set forth.
Num 2:10 On the south side shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.
Num 2:11 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:12 And those which pitch by him shall be the tribe of Simeon: and the captain of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.
Num 2:13 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
Num 2:14 Then the tribe of Gad: and the captain of the sons of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel.
Num 2:15 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty.
Num 2:16 All that were numbered in the camp of Reuben were an hundred thousand and fifty and one thousand and four hundred and fifty, throughout their armies. And they shall set forth in the second rank.
Num 2:17 Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards.
Num 2:18 On the west side shall be the standard of the camp of Ephraim according to their armies: and the captain of the sons of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.
Num 2:19 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:20 And by him shall be the tribe of Manasseh: and the captain of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.
Num 2:21 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
Num 2:22 Then the tribe of Benjamin: and the captain of the sons of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni.
Num 2:23 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:24 All that were numbered of the camp of Ephraim were an hundred thousand and eight thousand and an hundred, throughout their armies. And they shall go forward in the third rank.
Num 2:25 The standard of the camp of Dan shall be on the north side by their armies: and the captain of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.
Num 2:26 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
Num 2:27 And those that encamp by him shall be the tribe of Asher: and the captain of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran.
Num 2:28 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:29 Then the tribe of Naphtali: and the captain of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan.
Num 2:30 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:31 All they that were numbered in the camp of Dan were an hundred thousand and fifty and seven thousand and six hundred. They shall go hindmost with their standards.
Num 2:32 These are those which were numbered of the children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 2:33 But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 2:34 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses: so they pitched by their standards, and so they set forward, every one after their families, according to the house of their fathers.

[G2Rad]

so, what do you think?

is enough proofs for you, book?

[G2Rad]

if you need any help, ask

[Gaillo]

so, what do you think?

is enough proofs for you, book?


Proof? All I saw were some tall tales scribbled out by superstitious nomadic goat herders who hallucinated talking to God after too much time in the sun! ::)

[G2Rad]

so, what do you think?

is enough proofs for you, book?


Proof? All I saw were some tall tales scribbled out by superstitious nomadic goat herders who hallucinated talking to God after too much time in the sun! ::)


book asked me for the proofs. I've posted the proofs for him.
The fact that people who penned those two chapters were nomadic goat herders with no Ph.D diplomas only strengthens my point, that the author is the same person who invented your DNA code.

[Book]

book asked me for the proofs. I've posted the proofs for him.



http://images7.cpcache.com/product/107038097v9_480x480_Front.jpg

For everyone to see.

:D

[Horn]

Post the "facts".


Here you go:

Num 1:19 As the LORD commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai.
Num 1:20 And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:21 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:23 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
Num 1:24 Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:25 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty.
Num 1:26 Of the children of Judah, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:27 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Num 1:28 Of the children of Issachar, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:29 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Issachar, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:30 Of the children of Zebulun, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:31 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Zebulun, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:32 Of the children of Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:33 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:34 Of the children of Manasseh, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:35 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Manasseh, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
Num 1:36 Of the children of Benjamin, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:37 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Benjamin, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:38 Of the children of Dan, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:39 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Dan, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
Num 1:40 Of the children of Asher, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:41 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Asher, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:42 Of the children of Naphtali, throughout their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:43 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Naphtali, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:44 These are those that were numbered, which Moses and Aaron numbered, and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: each one was for the house of his fathers.
Num 1:45 So were all those that were numbered of the children of Israel, by the house of their fathers, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war in Israel;
Num 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 1:47 But the Levites after the tribe of their fathers were not numbered among them.
Num 1:48 For the LORD had spoken unto Moses, saying,
Num 1:49 Only thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, neither take the sum of them among the children of Israel:
Num 1:50 But thou shalt appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony, and over all the vessels thereof, and over all things that belong to it: they shall bear the tabernacle, and all the vessels thereof; and they shall minister unto it, and shall encamp round about the tabernacle.
Num 1:51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Num 1:52 And the children of Israel shall pitch their tents, every man by his own camp, and every man by his own standard, throughout their hosts.
Num 1:53 But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.
Num 1:54 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did they.


Num 2:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.
Num 2:3 And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.
Num 2:4 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Num 2:5 And those that do pitch next unto him shall be the tribe of Issachar: and Nethaneel the son of Zuar shall be captain of the children of Issachar.
Num 2:6 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:7 Then the tribe of Zebulun: and Eliab the son of Helon shall be captain of the children of Zebulun.
Num 2:8 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:9 All that were numbered in the camp of Judah were an hundred thousand and fourscore thousand and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. These shall first set forth.
Num 2:10 On the south side shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.
Num 2:11 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:12 And those which pitch by him shall be the tribe of Simeon: and the captain of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.
Num 2:13 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
Num 2:14 Then the tribe of Gad: and the captain of the sons of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel.
Num 2:15 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty.
Num 2:16 All that were numbered in the camp of Reuben were an hundred thousand and fifty and one thousand and four hundred and fifty, throughout their armies. And they shall set forth in the second rank.
Num 2:17 Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards.
Num 2:18 On the west side shall be the standard of the camp of Ephraim according to their armies: and the captain of the sons of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.
Num 2:19 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:20 And by him shall be the tribe of Manasseh: and the captain of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.
Num 2:21 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
Num 2:22 Then the tribe of Benjamin: and the captain of the sons of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni.
Num 2:23 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:24 All that were numbered of the camp of Ephraim were an hundred thousand and eight thousand and an hundred, throughout their armies. And they shall go forward in the third rank.
Num 2:25 The standard of the camp of Dan shall be on the north side by their armies: and the captain of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.
Num 2:26 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
Num 2:27 And those that encamp by him shall be the tribe of Asher: and the captain of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran.
Num 2:28 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:29 Then the tribe of Naphtali: and the captain of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan.
Num 2:30 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:31 All they that were numbered in the camp of Dan were an hundred thousand and fifty and seven thousand and six hundred. They shall go hindmost with their standards.
Num 2:32 These are those which were numbered of the children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 2:33 But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 2:34 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses: so they pitched by their standards, and so they set forward, every one after their families, according to the house of their fathers.


http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/Reviews/shin/all%20work%20and%20no%20play%20makes%20jack%20a%20 dull%20boy.jpg

[G2Rad]

book asked me for the proofs. I've posted the proofs for him.



For everyone to see.

:D


yes. I've posted it for everyone to see.

these two chapters is one of many very solid and independent proofs.

are you satisfied?

[G2Rad]

The text demonstrates that the real author of it knew that the crucifixion will be invented in Rome many thousands years after those words were written.

The text demonstrates that he knew that Jesus will be crucified on the cross.

He knew that there will be four gospels written ( not three, not two and not five ).

He knew about Revelation 4, which will be written many years after.

How did he know all that?

In another place it says: Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done (Isa 46)

Therefore it is only logical and rational to count the claim of Isa 46 as verified and confirmed, because the text of Numbers 1-2 does indeed declare the end from the beginning; it does indeed from ancient times depicts specific events of the yet far away future.

those are not irrational blabberings of superstitial fools, but solid, independent verifiable facts

[Santa]

Isn't this thread about faith?


faith (feɪθ) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

It seems that attempting to prove one's faith, by definition diminishes one's faith.

[G2Rad]

Isn't this thread about faith?


faith (feɪθ) [Click for IPA pronunciation guide]

— n
1. strong or unshakeable belief in something, esp without proof or evidence

It seems that attempting to prove one's faith, by definition diminishes one's faith.


It seems so only because that is a fake definition

according to that "definition" faith is a belief without proof or evidence, because faith is the belief without proof or evidence, which is a typical example of circular logic

[G2Rad]

Individuals may define faith in different ways based on their opinions, cultural backgrounds or level of ignorance.

Those private definitions are irrelevant to the subject matter.

The Bible defines faith as believe based on evidence and that definition it challenges us to test.

[G2Rad]

So, ....

Can anyone disproof Numbers 1-2?

Any loud-mouth "former Christians" can show me that the author of Number 1-2 did not know about crucifixion?

please, go ahead.

[G2Rad]

Or perhaps monkey-men or "former Christians" can disprove that the author of Gen 2:21-22 knew about crucifixion?

Please go ahead.

[Santa]

Be careful you don't worship the Bible.
It too can easily be used as a false idol,
glorifying its contents and holding it up on a pedestal.

[G2Rad]

Be careful you don't worship the Bible.
It too can easily be used as a false idol,
glorifying its contents and holding it up on a pedestal.


Santa, I do worship the Bible.
I do glorify it contents and hold it up on a pedestal.
there is nothing wrong with that

[Horn]

How was the social and cultural life of Britain affected by the fear that the French Revolution would spread across the channel? In this brilliant, engagingly written, and profusely illustrated book, John Barrell, well-known for his studies of the history, literature, and art of the period, argues that the conflict between the ancien régime in Britain and the emerging democratic movement was so fundamental that it could not be contained within what had previously been thought of as the "normal" arena of politics. Activities and spaces which had previously been regarded as "outside" politics suddenly no longer seemed to be so, and the fear of revolution produced a culture of surveillance and suspicion which penetrated every aspect of private life. Drawing on an unusually wide range of sources, including novels, poems, plays, newspapers, debates in parliament, trials, political pamphlets, and caricatures, The Spirit of Despotism focuses on a number of examples of such invasions of privacy. It shows how the culture of suspicion affected how people spoke and behaved in London coffee-houses; how it influenced attitudes to the king's behavior in private, especially during his summer holidays in Weymouth; how it infiltrated the country cottage, previously idealized as a protected haven of peace and retirement from political life; and how it influenced the fashion of the period, so that even the way people chose to style their hair came to be seen as a political issue.

Download Link

http://www.archive.org/download/spiritofdespotis00knox/spiritofdespotis00knox.pdf

[wrs]

The Bible defines faith as believe based on evidence and that definition it challenges us to test.

Wow, I guess you missed the whole 11th chapter of Hebrews which starts as follows

Heb 11:1
faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

That seems to concur with the definition that Santa provided for you. Seems to me the bible says what you want it to say and that is exactly the problem I have with all holy books, they always concur with what the reader wants to believe. I have no problem with that but just don't expect me to accept your meaning.

[G2Rad]

The Bible defines faith as believe based on evidence and that definition it challenges us to test.


Wow, I guess you missed the whole 11th chapter of Hebrews which starts as follows

Heb 11:1


I posted heb 11:1 in the very first post of this thread! Don't you have eyes?

[G2Rad]

Heb 11:1, faith based on evidence is the whole point of this discussion and the guy comes up with "wow, you missed Heb 11:1!".

How more stupid it could get?
::)

[G2Rad]

Can anyone disprove Numbers 1-2?

Can any "former Christian" demonstrate that the author of Number 1-2 did not know about crucifixion?

[sirgonzo420]

Can anyone disprove Numbers 1-2?

Can any "former Christian" demonstrate that the author of Number 1-2 did not know about crucifixion?



Where are you seeing anything about crucifixion mentioned?

[wrs]

I posted heb 11:1 in the very first post of this thread! Don't you have eyes?

How more stupid it could get?

Well I missed it I guess because it was way back the list of posts and you have now contradicted yourself in the first post because you said


The Bible defines faith as believe based on evidence

That is not what Heb 11:1 says and it gives a list of people who had no evidence but believed anyway. So you are the one who seems to be ignorant of the bible even though you post a reference to that which you don't understand. I can't imagine how you can claim to be a Christian when you don't even understand the bible. You are a real gem of a Christian G2Rad, you resort to name calling when you are dissatisfied with yourself and display a complete inability to control your emotions. You might try reading Galatians 5:16-26 and then if you want to know more about faith, you could read Chapter 3 of Galatians to help you out there.

Clearly, you aren't much of a real student of the bible you claim to hold in such high esteem. You can't even practice the little that it does give you as practice. Those verses in Chapter 5 are a good starting place in managing a spiritual life but you seem to believe that it involves threatening others with hell. I have news for you, the Kingdom of God is within, Jesus said so and Paul has more or less implied the same. When he gives the list of people who won't see the Kingdom of God, he is explaining that people who are attached to the flesh cannot find the spirit within them. That is where the Kingdom of God is, not some place you go when you die.

But hey, you already know it all, no sense in telling you anything.

[Santa]

threatening others with hell.

There seems to be a rash of that going around. :D


the Kingdom of God is within, Jesus said so and Paul has more or less implied the same. When he gives the list of people who won't see the Kingdom of God, he is explaining that people who are attached to the flesh cannot find the spirit within them.

That's pretty much how I understand it as well.

[G2Rad]

Can anyone disprove Numbers 1-2?
Can any "former Christian" demonstrate that the author of Number 1-2 did not know about crucifixion?

Where are you seeing anything about crucifixion mentioned?


Can any "former Christian", atheist or agnostic answer this question?

[G2Rad]

Jesus said, The volume of the Book is written of me.

Which is a claim, that the Old Testament was written about Jesus.

We can use Numbers 1-2 to check whether that claim is correct.

Which is another ...."CONFIRMED", because Numbers 1-2 written about crucifixion, about four Gospels and about a certain chapter of the Book of Revelation .

[G2Rad]

Also, there is a claim that no unsaved man will be able to see that on his own.

The Book is locked for you.

Which is CONFIRMED, because apparently none of you can see crucifiction in Numbers 1-2.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

[G2Rad]

Can anyone disprove Numbers 1-2?
Can any "former Christian" demonstrate that the author of Number 1-2 did not know about crucifixion?

Where are you seeing anything about crucifixion mentioned?


sirgonzo420, thank you for the question.

Once again, can any "former Christian", atheist, agnostic or circular-reasoning-chart poster answer sirgonzo420's question on his own?

The question is: "where is crucifiction in the following passage.



Num 1:19 As the LORD commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai.
Num 1:20 And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:21 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:23 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
Num 1:24 Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:25 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty.
Num 1:26 Of the children of Judah, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:27 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Num 1:28 Of the children of Issachar, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:29 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Issachar, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:30 Of the children of Zebulun, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:31 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Zebulun, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:32 Of the children of Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:33 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:34 Of the children of Manasseh, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:35 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Manasseh, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
Num 1:36 Of the children of Benjamin, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:37 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Benjamin, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:38 Of the children of Dan, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:39 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Dan, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
Num 1:40 Of the children of Asher, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:41 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Asher, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:42 Of the children of Naphtali, throughout their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:43 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Naphtali, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:44 These are those that were numbered, which Moses and Aaron numbered, and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: each one was for the house of his fathers.
Num 1:45 So were all those that were numbered of the children of Israel, by the house of their fathers, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war in Israel;
Num 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 1:47 But the Levites after the tribe of their fathers were not numbered among them.
Num 1:48 For the LORD had spoken unto Moses, saying,
Num 1:49 Only thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, neither take the sum of them among the children of Israel:
Num 1:50 But thou shalt appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony, and over all the vessels thereof, and over all things that belong to it: they shall bear the tabernacle, and all the vessels thereof; and they shall minister unto it, and shall encamp round about the tabernacle.
Num 1:51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Num 1:52 And the children of Israel shall pitch their tents, every man by his own camp, and every man by his own standard, throughout their hosts.
Num 1:53 But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.
Num 1:54 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did they.


Num 2:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.
Num 2:3 And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.
Num 2:4 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Num 2:5 And those that do pitch next unto him shall be the tribe of Issachar: and Nethaneel the son of Zuar shall be captain of the children of Issachar.
Num 2:6 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:7 Then the tribe of Zebulun: and Eliab the son of Helon shall be captain of the children of Zebulun.
Num 2:8 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:9 All that were numbered in the camp of Judah were an hundred thousand and fourscore thousand and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. These shall first set forth.
Num 2:10 On the south side shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.
Num 2:11 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:12 And those which pitch by him shall be the tribe of Simeon: and the captain of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.
Num 2:13 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
Num 2:14 Then the tribe of Gad: and the captain of the sons of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel.
Num 2:15 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty.
Num 2:16 All that were numbered in the camp of Reuben were an hundred thousand and fifty and one thousand and four hundred and fifty, throughout their armies. And they shall set forth in the second rank.
Num 2:17 Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards.
Num 2:18 On the west side shall be the standard of the camp of Ephraim according to their armies: and the captain of the sons of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.
Num 2:19 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:20 And by him shall be the tribe of Manasseh: and the captain of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.
Num 2:21 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
Num 2:22 Then the tribe of Benjamin: and the captain of the sons of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni.
Num 2:23 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:24 All that were numbered of the camp of Ephraim were an hundred thousand and eight thousand and an hundred, throughout their armies. And they shall go forward in the third rank.
Num 2:25 The standard of the camp of Dan shall be on the north side by their armies: and the captain of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.
Num 2:26 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
Num 2:27 And those that encamp by him shall be the tribe of Asher: and the captain of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran.
Num 2:28 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:29 Then the tribe of Naphtali: and the captain of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan.
Num 2:30 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:31 All they that were numbered in the camp of Dan were an hundred thousand and fifty and seven thousand and six hundred. They shall go hindmost with their standards.
Num 2:32 These are those which were numbered of the children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 2:33 But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 2:34 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses: so they pitched by their standards, and so they set forward, every one after their families, according to the house of their fathers.

[wrs]

G2Rad,
You are simply discrediting yourself even further with all this mystery nonsense. First of all, the gospels were written long after this book you claim to be written by god was written and thus all this foretelling is just made up nonsense. You can't even tell us who god is or why he is god and we should care. The claims you are making about foretelling are ludicrous and of course mystery religions promise the things you are claiming about Christianity. It's true that Christianity is a mystery religion and that it's based on Egyptian mystery religions but this doesn't give it any special status or make it true.

You are imposing your view or reality on others and condemning them based on your own beliefs which are only substantiated in your mind. You are free to do that but don't expect us to take you seriously. So far all you have done is expose your lack of understanding of the bible and now you are attempting to prove you have secret knowledge that saves you and damns us. That is weak and of course it's the hallmark of those deluded by their own minds.

[G2Rad]

Here is a little summary of solid facts (evidences) that were extracted from the Book of Numbers, chapters 1-2 .

Claim 1. God urges to verify the authenticity of the message (the Bible) and the identity of writer, which is God himself, by his unique trait of foreknowledge of the future (Isa 46).
Passage used …………………………… Book of Numbers, Chapter 1-2
Claim Status ……………………………………… verified and confirmed

Claim 2. The context of the message will be associated with Jesus Christ's life.
Passage used …………………………… Book of Numbers, Chapter 1-2
Claim Status ……………………………………… verified and confirmed

Claim 3. Christ died according to the Scripture.
Passage used …………………………… Book of Numbers, Chapter 1-2
Claim Status ……………………………………… verified and confirmed
The chapters doument the exact manner of death

Claim 4. The message will be indiscernible to enemies of God.
Passage used …………………………… Book of Numbers, Chapter 1-2
Claim Status ……………………………………… verifying

[wrs]

Foretelling the future doesn't make anyone a god. Furthermore, the book you claim foretells the future does nothing of the sort.

I notice you haven't been able to explain the EPIC FAIL of Rev 1:1, why are you running and hiding from that? Stand up and show us how that doesn't contradict your claims about the bible and your claims it foretells the future. It's proven wrong right there. Show us how that isn't so.

Come G2Rad, man up, give us the proof.

[G2Rad]

If no man answers sirgonzo's question in a day,

then I will answer his question and will reveal Jesus Christ in the text of Numbers 1-2.

Even after I do that, I do not expect you people to believe it, because as a former atheist-religionist I know that applying logic to YOUR RELIGION is a folly, and the Bible is to discern man, not vica-versa.

Let God's will be done, not mine.

[G2Rad]

Come G2Rad, man up, give us the proof.


you are one of those who professed to be a Christian once in you life.

So prove it. That is your chance.

The truth is - you always were blind.

You ask me to tell you what I see?

Where is your own vision that you received at the moment of salvation? Or, was it a lie?

[wrs]

you are one of those who professed to be a Christian once in you life.

So prove it. That is your chance.

The truth is - you always were blind.

You ask me to tell you what I see?

Where is your own vision that you received at the moment of salvation? Or, was it a lie?

This is convoluted nonsense. What moment of salvation? What vision? You are assuming some formula exists for being "saved". I have no idea what being "saved" actually means when people talk about it. It's the same kind of stuff I hear from Buddhists and Hindus about being liberated or achieving nirvana, it's something that is only valid in the mind of the individual discussing it. Another person can hear the same words and view it in their minds eye in an entirely different way. This is what I saw in Christianity all the time and you are simply reinforcing my experience.

You imagine that I can't see something you see, well that is very true most likely because what you see is only in your mind. In the same way, you can't tell me what I see in my mind because in the current world in which we live, we don't seem to be able to look into the thoughts of another although Jesus seems to have been said to have that capacity. If he did, then he developed it on his own and his disciples were lousy students who didn't leave any explanations of how that capability could be achieved by others. Now this is part of what the mystery religions claim to have, special powers. It is also what the third chapter of the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali claim can be developed as part of the practice of Yoga.

If you are looking for real answers that supposedly stem from a practice, you should read the Yoga Sutra's of Patanjali. Of course you will have to read the commentaries because of course, they cannot be understood without them. LOL, sounds familiar to me, ROTFLMAO. Yes it does, only some of the special gifted ones can unlock the secrets. Yup, sure sounds like something I heard not too far up this thread.

[G2Rad]

you are one of those who professed to be a Christian once in you life.

So prove it. That is your chance.

The truth is - you always were blind.

You ask me to tell you what I see?

Where is your own vision that you received at the moment of salvation? Or, was it a lie?

This is convoluted nonsense. What moment of salvation? What vision? You are assuming some formula exists for being "saved". I have no idea what being "saved" actually means when people talk about it.

that's what I told you. you are ignorant of what being "saved" actually means, you have no idea what faith is and the Bible always has been a convoluted nonsense for you as you just testified; yet you were telling people here, on this very forum that you once were a Christian and dare to teach on Christian doctrines.

your posts are so illogical that sometimes I wonder whether there are still lights ON upstairs.
After you were victimized through fake “Christianity” they re-directed you into Buddhism, yoga and the occult, where you are up to your eyeballs.

Even so, you still may have a chance to avoid Hell, good Lord willing.

[G2Rad]

still waiting for any takers concerning sirgonzo's question .................................

[sirgonzo420]

"good lord willing"

That "good lord" is the one damning him to Hell!

[Santa]

If no man answers sirgonzo's question in a day,

then I will answer his question and will reveal Jesus Christ in the text of Numbers 1-2.

Even after I do that, I do not expect you people to believe it, because as a former atheist-religionist I know that applying logic to YOUR RELIGION is a folly, and the Bible is to discern man, not vica-versa.

Let God's will be done, not mine.


I can hardly wait. This is really exciting. It's like watching the lotto balls drop into position on tv,
even though I haven't bought a ticket. :)

[wrs]

Even so, you still may have a chance to avoid Hell, good Lord willing.

You are funny, the good Lord is a figment of your imagination as is Hell. The bible itself fails to even tell us what hell is all about but Christians have made it into a main point of their religion.

I was once a professing Christian and now I am an apostate but again, it is of no consequence because Christianity is a false religion, it's based on lies and deceit, just as any religion is. There may be some truth in there but one has to be very careful and judicious about sorting out the lies from truth. I think it takes more discernment than you have displayed.


you are ignorant of what being "saved" actually means

Maybe because I don't need saving, I am in no need of salvation unlike you. I have faith in myself as that is all there really is in the end.

[G2Rad]

because I don't need saving, I am in no need of salvation unlike you. I have faith in myself as that is all there really is in the end.


I know I know. I've heard it many times over from you,

you are a hero-superman who defeated obesity, aging and death and you don't need no salvation.

http://www.supermanhomepage.com/images/comedy/fat_superman.gif

and you don't know anything and you don't want to know anything

so, why then don't you go kick a soccer ball?

why are you so glued to this thread? Why are you so worried, like a monkey in a zoo?

you don't need saving? Then this thread is not for you.

end of story. relax.

if you can answer sirgonzo's question - go ahead. Please.

if you cannot, then you have nothing to say - go have a haircut or something

[G2Rad]

very simple.

either deliver or shut up.

[G2Rad]

if nobody posts the answer, then I will post it as promised, if good Lord willing

everybody will have a chance to examine the evidence, using his own brain

everybody will make his own judgment and each will go his own way

no need for you kill yourself over it

[D sciple]

The Great Mystery is......

They encamped in the formation of a cross

Tadah

[G2Rad]

The Great Mystery is......

They encamped in the formation of a cross

Tadah


bingo

[G2Rad]

there is NO mistery

elementary school level math is enough to add up the numbers and see how camp looked from heaven

[G2Rad]

God said it is gonna be prophecy about the future ......... check
He delivered

He said it is gonna be about Jesus ......... check
He delivered

He said He died according to the Scripture ......... check
He delivered

No one knew 5000 years ago that crucifixion will be used by Romans, here it is in front of your noses.

Jews deny Jesus, while their own book is full of crosses with Jesus on every page.

There are a lot more info on that page and on that picture, that I will not waste my time.

Chapter 1,2 of Numbers is NOT what saved me.

Yet it is one of confirmed, delivered, solid facts which is up to each to believe of dismiss.

Have a good rest of you lives.

[Book]

http://bws.biblista.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/love_thy_neighbor.jpg

G2Rad?

;)

[wrs]

you are a hero-superman who defeated obesity, aging and death and you don't need no salvation.

Yes actually that is true, I weigh 190 which is what I have weighed for the most part since I was 19. I gained about 20 pounds and grew 2 inches from 18 to 19 in my freshman year at college but since then, my weight has been pretty stable except for a couple of years in 1999-2001 where I weighed about 215 because of SSRIs. Once I got off those I went back to my normal weight and of course the cancer caused me to lose weight down to about 170 but I beat cancer and I have most of my strength back. I can't dunk a basketball any longer but hey, Im 55 and I don't expect to. I could at 50 but then the cancer hit me pretty hard.

You can't appreciate yourself and your life G2Rad and that is why you consider others to be trash and in need of saving. You may think that makes you holy or something but all it does is make you unhappy. Your anger on this thread shows. I am on this thread because I want you to know that I have no need for the delusions that you believe make you special, chosen as it were. I don't need to be chosen, I am here and I am living life the way I want instead of how someone else wants me to.

By the way, there is absolutely no evidence that Jesus died on a cross, it's just a story without a single shred of corroboration in any other books outside of the Bible. So the cross thing in Numbers is nice but it's a waste of time, the story of Jesus was made up after the fact to use as a tool for deceiving the weak minded.

Now let me tell you what I think so you can quit trying to attribute your thoughts to me. I think that I will die and I will eventually be born again in another body and live another life. That makes me consider what impact my life is having today on the world and how it will help or harm the place I live because I want it to be amenable to living the next time around. It causes me to have a far different outlook on life than you. I don't have to worry about being saved but I do have to concern myself with preserving the place I live for posterity because I am that posterity. Just like Jesus said, before Abraham was, I AM.

[G2Rad]

http://bws.biblista.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/love_thy_neighbor.jpg

G2Rad?

;)


that's what I did, book :)

I loved you!

I wasted my time, ...... trying to rescue strangers from HELL

for no money, for no glory, for no pleasure

[G2Rad]

I’ve posted the proofs for everyone to see.

It turned out that no one could see. Therefore we had to make sirgonzo-detour, and I’ve dealt with your ignorance, chewed for you the elementary-school mathematics.

Book showed up, once again threw at me his favorite trump-card, accused me of luck of love and I showed him my love.

Sirgonzo showed up, once again threw at me his favorite "God-is-a-monster" trump-card. wrs showed up claiming it is too convoluted for his brain, Half sense showed up, pretending he would welcome facts, Gailo showed up in his usual hit-and-run way.


Now, after all that, I challenge you people, once again, please show me that the author of Number 1-2 did not know about crucifixion.

If you do – that will settle the matter.

If you don’t, than you, (not us), are irrational, illogical religious fanatics who refuse to open eyes to simple facts.

Boasting how logical you are, posting circular reasoning charts, taunting us, bashing and not allowing us to protect ourselves. Please go ahead. Deliver. Walk the walk.

Show us your logic. Show that the author of Number 1-2 did not know about crucifixion.

If you don’t, then accept the fact that your faith in evolution, in Buddha, in Marxism, in humanism, in science and education is nothing but irrational religious fanaticism.

[G2Rad]

To make life easier for you, below is the text that you need to overthrow to prove your point.

please go ahead

:)

|--0--|


Num 1:19 As the LORD commanded Moses, so he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai.
Num 1:20 And the children of Reuben, Israel's eldest son, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:21 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Reuben, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:22 Of the children of Simeon, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, those that were numbered of them, according to the number of the names, by their polls, every male from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:23 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Simeon, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
Num 1:24 Of the children of Gad, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:25 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Gad, were forty and five thousand six hundred and fifty.
Num 1:26 Of the children of Judah, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:27 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Judah, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Num 1:28 Of the children of Issachar, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:29 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Issachar, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:30 Of the children of Zebulun, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:31 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Zebulun, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:32 Of the children of Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:33 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Ephraim, were forty thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:34 Of the children of Manasseh, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:35 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Manasseh, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
Num 1:36 Of the children of Benjamin, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:37 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Benjamin, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:38 Of the children of Dan, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:39 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Dan, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
Num 1:40 Of the children of Asher, by their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:41 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Asher, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
Num 1:42 Of the children of Naphtali, throughout their generations, after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war;
Num 1:43 Those that were numbered of them, even of the tribe of Naphtali, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
Num 1:44 These are those that were numbered, which Moses and Aaron numbered, and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: each one was for the house of his fathers.
Num 1:45 So were all those that were numbered of the children of Israel, by the house of their fathers, from twenty years old and upward, all that were able to go forth to war in Israel;
Num 1:46 Even all they that were numbered were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 1:47 But the Levites after the tribe of their fathers were not numbered among them.
Num 1:48 For the LORD had spoken unto Moses, saying,
Num 1:49 Only thou shalt not number the tribe of Levi, neither take the sum of them among the children of Israel:
Num 1:50 But thou shalt appoint the Levites over the tabernacle of testimony, and over all the vessels thereof, and over all things that belong to it: they shall bear the tabernacle, and all the vessels thereof; and they shall minister unto it, and shall encamp round about the tabernacle.
Num 1:51 And when the tabernacle setteth forward, the Levites shall take it down: and when the tabernacle is to be pitched, the Levites shall set it up: and the stranger that cometh nigh shall be put to death.
Num 1:52 And the children of Israel shall pitch their tents, every man by his own camp, and every man by his own standard, throughout their hosts.
Num 1:53 But the Levites shall pitch round about the tabernacle of testimony, that there be no wrath upon the congregation of the children of Israel: and the Levites shall keep the charge of the tabernacle of testimony.
Num 1:54 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did they.


Num 2:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
Num 2:2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.
Num 2:3 And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.
Num 2:4 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
Num 2:5 And those that do pitch next unto him shall be the tribe of Issachar: and Nethaneel the son of Zuar shall be captain of the children of Issachar.
Num 2:6 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:7 Then the tribe of Zebulun: and Eliab the son of Helon shall be captain of the children of Zebulun.
Num 2:8 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:9 All that were numbered in the camp of Judah were an hundred thousand and fourscore thousand and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. These shall first set forth.
Num 2:10 On the south side shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.
Num 2:11 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:12 And those which pitch by him shall be the tribe of Simeon: and the captain of the children of Simeon shall be Shelumiel the son of Zurishaddai.
Num 2:13 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and nine thousand and three hundred.
Num 2:14 Then the tribe of Gad: and the captain of the sons of Gad shall be Eliasaph the son of Reuel.
Num 2:15 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty.
Num 2:16 All that were numbered in the camp of Reuben were an hundred thousand and fifty and one thousand and four hundred and fifty, throughout their armies. And they shall set forth in the second rank.
Num 2:17 Then the tabernacle of the congregation shall set forward with the camp of the Levites in the midst of the camp: as they encamp, so shall they set forward, every man in his place by their standards.
Num 2:18 On the west side shall be the standard of the camp of Ephraim according to their armies: and the captain of the sons of Ephraim shall be Elishama the son of Ammihud.
Num 2:19 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:20 And by him shall be the tribe of Manasseh: and the captain of the children of Manasseh shall be Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur.
Num 2:21 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and two thousand and two hundred.
Num 2:22 Then the tribe of Benjamin: and the captain of the sons of Benjamin shall be Abidan the son of Gideoni.
Num 2:23 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were thirty and five thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:24 All that were numbered of the camp of Ephraim were an hundred thousand and eight thousand and an hundred, throughout their armies. And they shall go forward in the third rank.
Num 2:25 The standard of the camp of Dan shall be on the north side by their armies: and the captain of the children of Dan shall be Ahiezer the son of Ammishaddai.
Num 2:26 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and two thousand and seven hundred.
Num 2:27 And those that encamp by him shall be the tribe of Asher: and the captain of the children of Asher shall be Pagiel the son of Ocran.
Num 2:28 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and one thousand and five hundred.
Num 2:29 Then the tribe of Naphtali: and the captain of the children of Naphtali shall be Ahira the son of Enan.
Num 2:30 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were fifty and three thousand and four hundred.
Num 2:31 All they that were numbered in the camp of Dan were an hundred thousand and fifty and seven thousand and six hundred. They shall go hindmost with their standards.
Num 2:32 These are those which were numbered of the children of Israel by the house of their fathers: all those that were numbered of the camps throughout their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty.
Num 2:33 But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 2:34 And the children of Israel did according to all that the LORD commanded Moses: so they pitched by their standards, and so they set forward, every one after their families, according to the house of their fathers.

[wrs]

Show that the author of Number 1-2 did not know about crucifixion.


OK, why would the fact that the tribes camped in the form of a cross have anything to do with the knowledge of the author. This is supposed to be nothing more than a factual passage. In that case the author is just reporting the facts. It so happens that the tribes appear to have been camped in the form of a cross if you read the passage just right. That doesn't provide any insight at all into what the author knew or didn't know. This is just more proof to my position that the Jesus story was written after the fact and this stuff was all looked for after the fact.

If the author had actually known something, they would have said so but they didn't. So you really have nothing to base your claim on. I don't see this passage as having anything at all to do with crucifixion.

[bellevuebully]

If the author had actually known something, they would have said so but they didn't. So you really have nothing to base your claim on. I don't see this passage as having anything at all to do with crucifixion.


You are really making the assumption that God's intention is to come to us and explain it to us as you would a three-year old. Based on the structure of the bible and the context of the work of the Holy Spirit, it is quite obvious that was not quite his intent. I guess that is where you and I would differ in our basic acceptance or lack thereof. I don't really expect it to be done the way I want or expect, and I see enough evidence in the fabric to accept the way it is proposed. Obviously, you do not and that is fine also. That's not really my business.

On another note, and again, just discussion....I'm not arguing any of these points because you see things the way you do and as I said....not my business. But out of curiousity, with regard to your 'coming back around'...do you believe that you have already been here? When you come around again, will you know you have been here once/multiple times? What happens if when you are gone, there is a 'glass-war' or red dwarf explosion of our sun, or something along those lines......and when you come back, the world is not here or habitable? Are there other places where this process is happening? Honestly, I'm curious where you develop the answer for these questions because in reality, you have only really exchanged one set of beliefs for another. You are condemning of the source of your original beliefs and I would like to know what generates the confidence you have in the source of your new beliefs.

Again, for clarity.....this is just discussion. I don't take your life-decisions personally so although I don't agree with you, I am interested in hearing how you process your theology. Hope you understand I am being genuine.

[Book]

God said it is gonna be prophecy about the future ......... check
He delivered

He said it is gonna be about Jesus ......... check
He delivered

He said He died according to the Scripture ......... check
He delivered



Prove that "He" said it.

:oo--> you can't

[G2Rad]

I was asked for facts and I delivered.

Now it is not yours, but my turn to ask questions.

I asked to please show me that the author of Numbers 1-2 did not know about crucifixion.

all I hear are more irrelevant questions and more unfounded assertions

Either answer my question, or shut up, you have nothing to say.

[Book]

I was asked for facts and I delivered.

Now it is not yours, but my turn to ask questions.

I asked to please show me that the author of Numbers 1-2 did not know about crucifixion.

Either answer the question, or shut up, you have nothing to say.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3iHtoAg6cc

http://archive-post.com/images/blog/agent_with_keys.jpg
"GOD "gave" me this house in Palestine."






:oo--> let's see the deed signed by GOD

[G2Rad]

So, you cannot overthrow Numbers 1-2, can you?

Numbers 1-2 just are like perhaps two Spartans at most.

What are you going to do when three hundred Spartans show up? :(

You had no idea what Numbers 1-2 was about; likewise you ignorant of what the rest of the Bible is about, yet calling us stupid all over the forum. Go figure.

Yet, not unexpected, as I myself was just like that, a narrow-minded dark-age bigot, mocking and bashing Christians all over, assuming that 23 years of my education guaranty my superiority.

Thanks God one day I actually looked at the arguments and realized that it got the facts and you can’t beat them.

Here is the news.

You worship your “reason” and your “brain” as god, yet worms will get that brain before long, while you lose your soul in HELL, unless that book, the Bible saves you.

[G2Rad]

http://archive-post.com/images/blog/agent_with_keys.jpg
"GOD "gave" me this house in Palestine."


http://gold-silver.us/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=6336;type=avatar
"Hi, I am Book;

I got my worldview from JEWS

JEWS "tought" me how to deny Jesus,

Therefore, logicaly I am anti-JEW,

and as anti-JEW I stand united with all the JEWS and all the liberals agaist the Bible, hooray, love me G2Rad"

aha, makes a lot of sence ::)

[G2Rad]

Still waiting, please prove that the author of Number 1-2 did not know about crucifixion.

[G2Rad]

Not only he knew that, but he also recordered a very specific information about each of the four Gospels, namely Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in Numbers 1-2.

How did he find out such specific details about the Gospels a thousand years before those books were penned?

How?

[wrs]

On another note, and again, just discussion....I'm not arguing any of these points because you see things the way you do and as I said....not my business. But out of curiousity, with regard to your 'coming back around'...do you believe that you have already been here? When you come around again, will you know you have been here once/multiple times? What happens if when you are gone, there is a 'glass-war' or red dwarf explosion of our sun, or something along those lines......and when you come back, the world is not here or habitable? Are there other places where this process is happening? Honestly, I'm curious where you develop the answer for these questions because in reality, you have only really exchanged one set of beliefs for another. You are condemning of the source of your original beliefs and I would like to know what generates the confidence you have in the source of your new beliefs.

Yes I suspect I have already been here. Obviously I don't really know that anymore than you know Jesus existed or God exists. Whatever happens to the earth in the interim is an interesting question because it seems that souls need somewhere to reside after not being embodied for a certain time. What if there are too many souls and not enough bodies, what then? Christianity fails to address any of these questions, it simply assumes you will have either a great afterlife or a poor afterlife and if you have a great one, you will rule with Christ. Well what will you rule and why should anyone want to rule over another? Why the desire to be a ruler? What is the point?

Everybody has a set of beliefs, the ones I have now were similar to what I had when the 4 laws were first presented to me. As I have related, I was concerned with how to be a better person in this life, not the hereafter and not really being saved. I saw Jesus as a way to help me be a better person and I still see his teachings as primarily concerned with life on this earth, not hereafter. I believe Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within and in that case, he isn't referring to a hereafter but a perpetual process of living. I don't see anything in Jesus teaching that contradicts repeated physical incarnations separated by a period of non-embodiment. Jesus seemed to be concerned with how we think and when the word repent is used in the NT it is metanoia which means to think again or to rethink one's position. Jesus was constantly telling people that what they were being told about life was wrong and that they were looking at life in the wrong way.

My questions and concerns are not about what happens when I die, that will happen no matter what. My concern is how I am living this life and that has always been my concern. Christianity as it is practiced doesn't really address that as it's main concern, it is much more about not going to hell and that doesn't interest me, it never has. I didn't join the church to "get saved", I joined to change my behavior which does mean to change my thinking. I did change the ways that I thought about a lot of things but eventually, I found that I needed to do some more changing. I found that I could do what I thought Jesus was doing or the HS was doing because those were just aspects of me. So I don't really have much use for today's Christianity the way it is practiced. I certainly do find some of Jesus teachings to be useful however so I am not throwing the baby out with the bath water.

[Santa]

You worship your “reason” and your “brain” as god, yet worms will get that brain before long, while you lose your soul in HELL, unless that book, the Bible saves you. Bwahahahahaha!


http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac358/jackconrad/junk/fedb48f1.jpg

[bellevuebully]

Yes I suspect I have already been here. Obviously I don't really know that anymore than you know Jesus existed or God exists. Whatever happens to the earth in the interim is an interesting question because it seems that souls need somewhere to reside after not being embodied for a certain time. What if there are too many souls and not enough bodies, what then? Christianity fails to address any of these questions, it simply assumes you will have either a great afterlife or a poor afterlife and if you have a great one, you will rule with Christ. Well what will you rule and why should anyone want to rule over another? Why the desire to be a ruler? What is the point?



What particularily has led you to suspect this?

That is a pretty specific conjecture. What information did you use to come to this conclusion?

I would propose that the bible addresses these questions fairly thouroughly. To the issue of souls....one body, one soul. Upon death, the 'real' us, the part that makes us who we are, the non-genetic, non-organic part of us, the part that the Christian would describe as the 'us' part that is fashioned in God's image, would be either able to reside in communion with God, or be granted the status which it has desired, namely seperation from God.

As to the afterlife, as I alluded above....the 'person' receives what he has endeavoured toward....communion with God, or seperation from Him.

As to the issue of ruling....well, we have dominated and subdued our world and our environment to our will (as human beings on the top of the food chain, so-to-speak). That is essentially ruling. To be in control of something. Not necessarily someone. God is a creator by his own admission. Maybe our destiny has involvement in 'ruling' something that we are not fully in understanding of. Truthfully by my own admission, I don't know. It's not a show stopper for me. It's not like a contract where I have to know every last detail. Perhaps a good parallel example would be yourself....you don't know if you have been here (the specifics of your belief), but you haven't abandoned that belief because of that lack of detail. Obviously, for you, this also is not a show-stopper.

Bear in mind, I'm just presenting my pov to address your above noted point. Not trying to debate who is right and who is wrong.

My edit.....also, if you believe you have a soul that becomes reincarnated, where do you believe it comes from?




As I have related, I was concerned with how to be a better person in this life, not the hereafter and not really being saved. I saw Jesus as a way to help me be a better person

In reading through this thread, I think this is what G2rad was alluding to when he opined that you have never experienced a real genuine interaction with the Holy Spirit as described in the bible.

As the bible describes, the Holy Spirit is given as a deposit of salvation when the heart condition (and essentially the intellectual condition) of a person leads him to acknowlege his need for a Saviour. Not wanting to be good for the sake of being good, but rather, as was your case in partiallity, recognizing that the desire to be good stemmed from a realization that you are not good by nature, that is, you were lacking goodness, and then seeking God rather than yourself to achieve that. You chose the latter. I chose the former.

Obviously, you likely feel that you know this because you were involved as you say for 25 years in church. By the way you describe what motivated you to pursue that avenue, I would have to agree with G2rad. I don't believe that you really ever experienced the Holy Spirit, because by your own admission, your motivation was not in line with what the bible describes as someone who is really seeking God. It was more like seeking yourself....who you could ultimately be. Don't get me wrong though, although this sounds like a strong opinion on my part, I view it as no harm, no foul in as far as I am concerned and I don't judge you on it, even though I think you are incorrect and that God will be your final judge. To be fair, you think I am going to come back and relive in another body. I accept that to be your belief.



I don't see anything in Jesus teaching that contradicts repeated physical incarnations separated by a period of non-embodiment. Jesus was constantly telling people that what they were being told about life was wrong and that they were looking at life in the wrong way.




The scripture says it is appointed man once to die, and then the judgement. Although you might contend that is not Jesus' words, but Paul's, my position would be either the bible is to believed or it isn't. Either God preserved his Word to give us a message or He didn't. If he didn't, then it's all just man's opinion, and is not worth a hill of beans. If He did, we should head every word, including what it says about our life, death and accountability.

You are correct. He was telling them that the religious leaders had abandoned the truth and were leading them into a lie. The wrong way was thier way. The right way was His.



My questions and concerns are not about what happens when I die, that will happen no matter what. My concern is how I am living this life and that has always been my concern. Christianity as it is practiced doesn't really address that as it's main concern, it is much more about not going to hell and that doesn't interest me, it never has. I didn't join the church to "get saved", I joined to change my behavior which does mean to change my thinking. I did change the ways that I thought about a lot of things but eventually, I found that I needed to do some more changing. I found that I could do what I thought Jesus was doing or the HS was doing because those were just aspects of me. So I don't really have much use for today's Christianity the way it is practiced. I certainly do find some of Jesus teachings to be useful however so I am not throwing the baby out with the bath water.


It is unfortunate that is your perception. It is not that for me, although going to hell is not something that I would want. For me, it is about recognizing my relationship with my Creator, and desiring to follow his way to bring it to it's full fruition.


What do you do with the parts that contradict your thinking?

[wrs]

if you believe you have a soul that becomes reincarnated, where do you believe it comes from?

No idea, the bible has no info on this either. The preexistence of the soul is a hotly debated topic beginning with Origen. It is what Plato believed to be the case and it is not contradicted by Jesus, in fact it is supported by the quote "before Abraham was, I am".


The scripture says it is appointed man once to die, and then the judgement. Although you might contend that is not Jesus' words, but Paul's, my position would be either the bible is to believed or it isn't.

Your position would be wrong and I clearly said I was referring to Jesus so why use some other author.

There is no question that the words of Paul are nothing more than his opinions and those of others, he even admits to such. To say his words are the words of god is irrational. The words of Paul are what you use to tell me I was never saved. Jesus had no such plan of salvation as you and G2Rad have pretended exists. You folks are simply standing in judgment of me on your on say so. I don't consider you to be in any position to make such a determination.


Either God preserved his Word to give us a message or He didn't.

He didn't, men wrote the bible and men picked the books in the bible.


If he didn't, then it's all just man's opinion, and is not worth a hill of beans.

Exactly my point and the evidence clearly indicates that but you reject the evidence because it doesn't suit your beliefs.


What do you do with the parts that contradict your thinking?


The same thing you do, toss them out since they contradict my current set of beliefs.

[bellevuebully]

if you believe you have a soul that becomes reincarnated, where do you believe it comes from?

No idea, the bible has no info on this either. The preexistence of the soul is a hotly debated topic beginning with Origen. It is what Plato believed to be the case and it is not contradicted by Jesus, in fact it is supported by the quote "before Abraham was, I am".


The scripture says it is appointed man once to die, and then the judgement. Although you might contend that is not Jesus' words, but Paul's, my position would be either the bible is to believed or it isn't.

Your position would be wrong and I clearly said I was referring to Jesus so why use some other author.

There is no question that the words of Paul are nothing more than his opinions and those of others, he even admits to such. To say his words are the words of god is irrational. The words of Paul are what you use to tell me I was never saved. Jesus had no such plan of salvation as you and G2Rad have pretended exists. You folks are simply standing in judgment of me on your on say so. I don't consider you to be in any position to make such a determination.


Either God preserved his Word to give us a message or He didn't.

He didn't, men wrote the bible and men picked the books in the bible.


If he didn't, then it's all just man's opinion, and is not worth a hill of beans.

Exactly my point and the evidence clearly indicates that but you reject the evidence because it doesn't suit your beliefs.


What do you do with the parts that contradict your thinking?


The same thing you do, toss them out since they contradict my current set of beliefs.


Thanks for the response.

I am still curious about a couple of points you didn't hit on in your post...

Quote from: wrs on Yesterday at 03:51:22 PM
Yes I suspect I have already been here. Obviously I don't really know that anymore than you know Jesus existed or God exists. Whatever happens to the earth in the interim is an interesting question because it seems that souls need somewhere to reside after not being embodied for a certain time. What if there are too many souls and not enough bodies, what then? Christianity fails to address any of these questions, it simply assumes you will have either a great afterlife or a poor afterlife and if you have a great one, you will rule with Christ. Well what will you rule and why should anyone want to rule over another? Why the desire to be a ruler? What is the point?



What particularily has led you to suspect this?
That is a pretty specific conjecture. What information did you use to come to this conclusion?





The preexistence of the soul is a hotly debated topic beginning with Origen. It is what Plato believed to be the case and it is not contradicted by Jesus, in fact it is supported by the quote "before Abraham was, I am".

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Could you expand on this? What did the souls preexist? Matter, or each other? Again, I'm asking because I am not sure what you are implying. If so, what is the relative relationship (in a preexistant state) between souls...ie) were some souls more preexistant than others?...such as Jesus' soul preexisted Abraham's? I guess in simple terms I'm trying to get a handle on how that quote from Jesus supports the preexistance of souls, because you didn't give any reference to what they preexisted, and the order of preexistance.

Also..



The same thing you do, toss them out since they contradict my current set of beliefs.


I can say for certain you are most mistaken with this comment. When I encounter things that at first glance seem to contradict my initial suppositions, I don't relegate them to the trash bin. I try to seek how the message or context could differ from those initial suppositions and to explore how they might fit into the larger picture.


As far as me standing in judgement of you as you said above, that is not true. I was only highlighting the fact that your experiences with Christianity were incongruent with the claims made by the source through which you pursued it, and essentially agreeing with you. As an illustration, say a person wanted to experience flight and jumped off a cliff expecting to fly but fell to the earth and the results didn't match his expectation. Well it would be one thing if all of the physics books said that method was possible, but entirely another if it detailed issues such as lift and drag and thrust. Claiming that the jump produced false results would be inaccurate when failing to take into account the specifics of the required components. I'm not judging you....I am simply pointing out that you expect 1+2 to equal 4 when all the math books say 1+2=3.

Maybe I am wrong, but I sense a certain irritability in your responses to me. I have tried to make myself clear that I am not in this for a debate over who is right and who is wrong. We both have our point of views and as far as I know, I have not approached you in any condescending manner about yours. I am interested in exploring the differences in our beliefs as long as it can be done with the understanding that there is mutual respect for each others pov. That doesn't mean we have to agree. But it does mean we should be cordial in our tone. Would you agree?

[wrs]

What particularily has led you to suspect this?
That is a pretty specific conjecture. What information did you use to come to this conclusion?

I have read a lot of literature discussing further the concept of soul, ego, mind and spirit. You can go look at the Theosopist version of it or the Yoga version or you can look at gnostic ideas or Plato. There are many views of the soul and it's preexistence as well as it's eternal nature. I don't think I can point you to a single source, there are many of them discussing the topic in far greater depth than the bible.


What did the souls preexist?

Their current incarnation that is falsely believed to be the self.


If so, what is the relative relationship (in a preexistant state) between souls...ie) were some souls more preexistant than others?...such as Jesus' soul preexisted Abraham's?

Not at all but Abraham was simply one incarnation of the individual soul that experienced life as Abraham. There were others before and after Abraham which that eternal soul manifested as. Jesus is making the point that I AM, the eternal self or Ataman as it is known in Yoga is the core of each of us and our outer manifestation is transitory and not really us. Thus Abraham was simply a reflection of that soul at that time.


Maybe I am wrong, but I sense a certain irritability in your responses to me.

You are wrong, I am not irritated at all.

Here is a link (http://www.swamij.com/swami-rama-control-mind.htm) to get you started on some of the ideas of Yoga if you are interested. It discusses the second Sutra wherein Yoga is defined. You might find it interesting. Of all that I have read, Patanjali makes the most sense. I think that apparently a lot of Christians have run from Yoga with their hair on fire because someone said it's "demonic". It's not, however if you read the third chapter you will find that it expounds powers that Jesus had and that are assumed demonic outside of Jesus.

I really have a problem with Christians who seem to completely overlook the fact that Jesus exhibited mystical powers and that he was a mystic himself. Furthermore, if Christians were do do a reasonably in depth study of Yoga, they would discover to their dismay, that Jesus understood and promoted some of the teachings of Yoga.

[sirgonzo420]

I’ve posted the proofs for everyone to see.

It turned out that no one could see. Therefore we had to make sirgonzo-detour, and I’ve dealt with your ignorance, chewed for you the elementary-school mathematics.

Sirgonzo showed up, once again threw at me his favorite "God-is-a-monster" trump-card. wrs showed up claiming it is too convoluted for his brain, Half sense showed up, pretending he would welcome facts, Gailo showed up in his usual hit-and-run way.




No, the Bible-character-"God" is by His own account jealous, and it can be said that He is a monster (what, with the commanding people to bash babies against rocks, and to marry women they just raped).

The real, ineffable, sustained cause of the Universe that Man has called "God" is not some character in a collection of books. Nor is it made up; it if was, we wouldn't be having this conversation! :D

"That which men have called God" is incredibly misunderstood by most men. It can even be said that "He"/"It" is infinitely beyond comprehension.

[D sciple]

Its like, we all Know God exists. We're just preparing our court cases for why we should ignore him.

We need to man up and bring back the proof of Samson.

[mrnhtbr2232]

This is the baloney.

First of all, there are no facts recorded in the Bible, not one that I am aware of. There are simply a bunch of stories that cannot be verified as history or fact. Second, faith is belief in something that you don't understand, it's not based on facts. Beliefs are things that you accept as truth and they are what govern your life.

You believe the Bible is the word of God but you cannot prove it so you are accepting the bible on faith but not facts. You don't even know that God exists, you just believe that to be the case. The God you believe exists is substantially different than the God many other people in the world believe exists so whose God is the fact and whose is the belief?

Beliefs guide a person's life and if you don't believe in something, you have no purpose in life. That is the real truth so you should examine your beliefs and see where you are allowing them to take you.

This was my approach as well until recently. But then fact is many times defined by the observer regardless of the evidence or lack thereof. I wonder if it is sufficient in this conversation to admit that there are tenets to Christianity that are good despite the lack of direct evidence being replaced by people's faith. One argument someone told me when I questioned the existence of God was to ask me to explain existence.

They believed that God was beyond human comprehension and that only by a divine hand could life and consciousness exist. At the time I adopted the approach that in practical terms that was insufficient to satisfy the metrics of science and observable fact. Yet the more I meditate on it the more sense it made. Not from the Bible, but simply from applying the statistical probability that out of basic cosmic elements in the universe evolution would produce hoards of iPhone zombies and the NFL.

So lately I've been open to possibilities. Not so much bible-based (I continue to examine and question the depth of the printed word) but none the less accepting that the world is bigger than I am and therefore those that believe in God are not provably wrong. And because of that, for me it demands more investigation. Your other point that different cultures have different Gods is right on the money - what makes Christians any better than Hindus or Muslims? For that answer I have studied history to find a common thread to all religions. So far I have discerned that most believers are good people the world over, but suffer from being led by more powerful forces that are not.

As a human being I seek truth. I am hindered by the analytical approach I take, and this perhaps denies me the ability to comprehend things more intuitive than concrete. But I would not call my belief in something I don't understand faith - that to me requires a surrender I have yet to choose is appropriate to advance in life. But having said that, I am also not going to discount the sum of man's existence through the ages and the various angles and plots GSUS is so good at serving up for evaluation. One thing is for sure - I had no problems in the past insulting and marginalizing Christians for the very reasons you spelled out. But no more. Not because I want to believe, but because belief itself is actually the challenge.

[StreetsOfGold]

[QUOTE=wrs;422387]I have read a lot of literature discussing further the concept of soul, ego, mind and spirit.

Man is a 3 part being, this is a baisc for understanding man and what he is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJwWLBqkv6s