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Ares
21st June 2011, 06:42 AM
A few weeks ago we pointed out what may be the most troubling (and Marxist) observation in America's labor arena, namely that the labor's share of national income has dropped to the lowest in history as a record number of Americans now focus on wealth creation through assets (i.e. owners of capital) instead of labor. In his just released latest letter (below) Bill Gross piggybacks on this observation in what is one of the most scathing notes blasting the traditional of higher education, and in essence claiming that college, as means of perpetuating a broken employment status quo whcih redirect labor to a now-expiring Wall Street labor model, is now worthless: "The past several decades have witnessed an erosion of our manufacturing base in exchange for a reliance on wealth creation via financial assets. Now, as that road approaches a dead-end cul-de-sac via interest rates that can go no lower, we are left untrained, underinvested and overindebted relative to our global competitors. The precipitating cause of our structural employment break is both internal neglect and external competition. Blame us. Blame them. There’s plenty of blame to go around." And why college graduates have only a 6 digit loan to look forward to: "American citizens and its universities have experienced an ivy-laden ivory tower for the past half century. Students, however, can no longer assume that a four year degree will be the golden ticket to a good job in a global economy that cares little for their social networking skills and more about what their labor is worth on the global marketplace." And some very bad news for the communists in the White House and the chimpanzees in the San Francisco Fed who continue to believe that unemployment is anything but structural: "The “golden” days are over, and it’s time our school and jobs “daze” comes to an end to be replaced by programs that do more than mimic failed establishment policies favoring Wall as opposed to Main Street."

From Bill Gross of PIMCO

School Daze, School Daze Good Old Golden Rule Days

The past several decades have witnessed an erosion of our manufacturing base in exchange for a reliance on wealth creation via financial assets.
Fiscal balance alone will not likely produce 20 million jobs over the next decade. Government must take a leading role in job creation.
A growing number of skeptics wonder whether college is worth the time or the cost.

A mind is a precious thing to waste, so why are millions of America’s students wasting theirs by going to college? All of us who have been there know an undergraduate education is primarily a four year vacation interrupted by periodic bouts of cramming or Google plagiarizing, but at least it used to serve a purpose. It weeded out underachievers and proved at a minimum that you could pass an SAT test. For those who made it to the good schools, it proved that your parents had enough money to either bribe administrators or hire SAT tutors to increase your score by 500 points. And a degree represented that the graduate could “party hearty” for long stretches of time and establish social networking skills that would prove invaluable later on at office cocktail parties or interactively via Facebook. College was great as long as the jobs were there.

Now, however, a growing number of skeptics wonder whether it’s worth the time or the cost. Peter Thiel, an early investor in Facebook and head of Clarium Capital, a long-standing hedge fund, has actually established a foundation to give 20 $100,000 grants to teenagers who would drop out of school and become not just tech entrepreneurs but world-changing visionaries. College, in his and the minds of many others, is stultifying and outdated – overpriced and mismanaged – with very little value created despite the bump in earnings power that universities use as their raison d’être in our modern world of money.

Fact: College tuition has increased at a rate 6% higher than the general rate of inflation for the past 25 years, making it four times as expensive relative to other goods and services as it was in 1985. Subjective explanation: University administrators have a talent for increasing top line revenues via tuition, but lack the spine necessary to upgrade academic productivity. Professorial tenure and outdated curricula focusing on liberal arts instead of a more practical global agenda focusing on math and science are primary culprits.

Fact: The average college graduate now leaves school with $24,000 of debt and total student loans now exceed this nation’s credit card debt at $1.0 trillion and counting (7% of our national debt). Subjective explanation: Universities are run for the benefit of the adult establishment, both politically and financially, not students. To radically change the system and to question the sanctity of a college education would be to jeopardize trillions of misdirected investment dollars and financial obligations.

Conclusion to ponder: American citizens and its universities have experienced an ivy-laden ivory tower for the past half century. Students, however, can no longer assume that a four year degree will be the golden ticket to a good job in a global economy that cares little for their social networking skills and more about what their labor is worth on the global marketplace.

Fareed Zakaria, as usual, has a well-thought-out solution. “We need,” he writes, “a program as ambitious as the GI Bill,” but one that focuses on retraining existing unemployed workers and redirecting our future students. Instead of liberal arts, he suggests focusing on technical education, technical institutes and polytechnics as well as apprenticeship programs. Our penchant for focusing on high tech value-added jobs should be modified and redirected, he claims, to mimic the German path, which allows people with good technical skills but limited college education to earn a decent living.

One thing college does do is to keep 25 million students off the unemployment rolls, much like it did for me when I went on my own four year vacation. The world was a different oyster in 1966, however, and it behooves America to recognize the reversal and the necessity for significant changes if it is to compete in the global marketplace of the 21st century.

It is becoming obvious that the 2012 election will be fought on a battlefield of job creation. A 9.1% official unemployment rate, and a number nearly double that when discouraged and part-time workers are included in the rolls, portend an angry and disillusioned electorate, which will include millions of jobless college graduates ill-trained to compete in the global marketplace. Over the past 10 years under both Democratic and Republican administrations, only 1.8 million jobs have been created while the available labor force has grown by over 15 million. It is clear, however, that neither party has an awareness of the why or the wherefores of how to put America back to work again. Few economic advisors from either party ever mention structural long-term disconnects in employment – a recognition that cyclical influences will no longer dominate the U.S. labor market. Manufacturing and goods exports have ceded enormous ground to China and other developing labor markets, as America’s reliance on services and high tech innovation has exposed gaping holes in an historically successful model. Almost any industry dominated or significantly connected to finance and financial leverage has hit the canvas and stayed down in the aftermath of Lehman 2008. Housing construction, real estate brokerage, banking and consumer retail employment will likely never come back to levels dominated by our prior decade’s excessive leverage and its abuse leading to overconsumption. Because of that focus, a “shovel-ready,” vigorous manufacturing sector is not there to pick up the slack.

Similarly, the high tech paragons of the 21st century – Apple, Microsoft, Google, Facebook et al. – never were employers of high school or B.A. college graduates in significant numbers. Production of hardware, to the extent that any was needed, quickly gravitated to foreign ports of call where workers were willing to produce an excellent product for 1/10th of the U.S. wage. The past several decades have witnessed an erosion of our manufacturing base in exchange for a reliance on wealth creation via financial assets. Now, as that road approaches a dead-end cul-de-sac via interest rates that can go no lower, we are left untrained, underinvested and overindebted relative to our global competitors. The precipitating cause of our structural employment break is both internal neglect and external competition. Blame us. Blame them. There’s plenty of blame to go around.

Solutions from policymakers on the right or left, however, seem focused almost exclusively on rectifying or reducing our budget deficit as a panacea. While Democrats favor tax increases and mild adjustments to entitlements, Republicans pound the table for trillions of dollars of spending cuts and an axing of Obamacare. Both, however, somewhat mystifyingly, believe that balancing the budget will magically produce 20 million jobs over the next 10 years. President Obama’s long-term budget makes just such a claim and Republican alternatives go many steps further. Former Governor Pawlenty of Minnesota might be the Republicans’ extreme example, but his claim of 5% real growth based on tax cuts and entitlement reductions comes out of left field or perhaps the field of dreams. The United States has not had a sustained period of 5% real growth for nearly 60 years.

Both parties, in fact, are moving to anti-Keynesian policy orientations, which deny additional stimulus and make rather awkward and unsubstantiated claims that if you balance the budget, “they will come.” It is envisioned that corporations or investors will somehow overnight be attracted to the revived competitiveness of the U.S. labor market: Politicians feel that fiscal conservatism equates to job growth. It’s difficult to believe, however, that an American-based corporation, with profits as its primary focus, can somehow be wooed back to American soil with a feeble and historically unjustified assurance that Social Security will be now secure or that medical care inflation will disinflate. Admittedly, those are long-term requirements for a stable and healthy economy, but fiscal balance alone will not likely produce 20 million jobs over the next decade. The move towards it, in fact, if implemented too quickly, could stultify economic growth. Fed Chairman Bernanke has said as much, suggesting the urgency of a congressional medium-term plan to reduce the deficit but that immediate cuts are self-defeating if they were to undercut the still-fragile economy.

Academics also point to a theory known as Ricardian equivalence, a notion named after David Ricardo from the early 19th century. His ivory tower theorem was that consumers would become more and more confident of their financial future if in fact they believed that their own government’s exuberance would be held in check. Balance the U.S. or any government budget, he prophesized, and the private sector would extend and lever theirs. Well, commonsensically and anecdotally, I know of no family who, after watching the Republican candidates’ debate in New Hampshire, went out the next day and bought themselves a flat screen under the assumption that their Medicare entitlements would be cut in future years and the U.S. budget balanced. Ricardo and his “equivalence” belong in the trash bin of theses and research aimed more towards academics than a practical remedy to America’s job crisis.

What then, shall we do? My preferred solution has long- term elements, which includes the opening language in this Investment Outlook, concerning the value of a college education as currently structured. Peter Thiel may be on to something, but all of our kids just can’t up and quit college à la Bill Gates. Still, if we are to compete globally while maintaining a higher wage base, we must train for “middle” in addition to “high” tech. Philosophy, sociology and liberal arts agendas will no longer suffice. Skill-based education is a must, as is science and math.

Additionally and immediately, however, government must take a leading role in job creation. Conservative or even liberal agendas that cede responsibility for job creation to the private sector over the next few years are simply dazed or perhaps crazed. The private sector is the source of long-term job creation but in the short term, no rational observer can believe that global or even small businesses will invest here when the labor over there is so much cheaper. That is why trillions of dollars of corporate cash rest impotently on balance sheets awaiting global – non-U.S. – investment opportunities. Our labor force is too expensive and poorly educated for today’s marketplace.

In the near term, then, we should not rely solely on job or corporate-directed payroll tax credits because corporations may not take enough of that bait, and they’re sitting pretty as it is. Government must step up to the plate, as it should have in early 2009. An infrastructure bank to fund badly needed reconstruction projects is a commonly accepted idea, despite the limitations of the original “shovel-ready” stimulus program in 2009. Disparate experts such as GE’s Jeff Immelt, Fareed Zakaria, Jeffrey Sachs and Paul Krugman believe an infrastructure bank to be an excellent use of deficit funds: a true investment in our future. While the current administration admits that the $25 billion in Recovery Act spending on infrastructure only created 150,000 jobs, it also stabilized and improved this nation’s productivity for years to come. Clean/green energy investments also come to mind, most of which require government funding and a government thrust in order to create millions of jobs. China knows this and is off and running. The U.S. needs to learn from their state-oriented model. In times of extremis, pushing on the private sector string is ineffective, especially within the context of a global marketplace that offers alternative investment locations. Government must temporarily assume a bigger, not a smaller, role in this economy, if only because other countries are dominating job creation with kick-start policies that eventually dominate global markets.

And how about at least an intelligent discussion on “trade policy” which incorporates more than just a symbolic bashing of Chinese currency relative to the dollar. Who, from either side of the aisle is willing to discuss the use of trade measures in order to help balance our $500 billion trade deficit? This is delicate territory, reawakening fears of Smoot-Hawley in the 1930s, but we are in delicate territory regarding our unemployment rate as well. Warren Buffett in 2003 advocated an idea he called “Import Credits” which he claimed would increase exports in the hundreds of billions and jobs in the hundreds of thousands. Republicans? Democrats? Discussion please.

In the end, I hearken back to revered economist Hyman Minsky – a modern-day economic godfather who predicted the subprime crisis. “Big Government,” he wrote, should become the “employer of last resort” in a crisis, offering a job to anyone who wants one – for health care, street cleaning, or slum renovation. FDR had a program for it – the CCC, Civilian Conservation Corps, and Barack Obama can do the same. Economist David Rosenberg of Gluskin Sheff sums up my feelings rather well. “I’d have a shovel in the hands of the long-term unemployed from 8am to noon, and from 1pm to 5pm I’d have them studying algebra, physics, and geometry.” Deficits are important, but their immediate reduction can wait for a stronger economy and lower unemployment. Jobs are today’s and tomorrow’s immediate problem.

Those who advocate that job creation rests on corporate tax reform (lower taxes) or a return to deregulation of the private economy always fail to address dominant structural headwinds which cannot be dismissed: 1) Labor is much more attractively priced over there than here, and 2) U.S. employment based on asset price appreciation/finance as opposed to manufacturing can no longer be sustained. The “golden” days are over, and it’s time our school and jobs “daze” comes to an end to be replaced by programs that do more than mimic failed establishment policies favoring Wall as opposed to Main Street.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/bill-gross-college-worthless

iOWNme
21st June 2011, 07:00 AM
Fact: College tuition has increased at a rate 6% higher than the general rate of inflation for the past 25 years, making it four times as expensive relative to other goods and services as it was in 1985. Subjective explanation: University administrators have a talent for increasing top line revenues via tuition, but lack the spine necessary to upgrade academic productivity. Professorial tenure and outdated curricula focusing on liberal arts instead of a more practical global agenda focusing on math and science are primary culprits.

Fact: The average college graduate now leaves school with $24,000 of debt and total student loans now exceed this nation’s credit card debt at $1.0 trillion and counting (7% of our national debt). Subjective explanation: Universities are run for the benefit of the adult establishment, both politically and financially, not students. To radically change the system and to question the sanctity of a college education would be to jeopardize trillions of misdirected investment dollars and financial obligations.These 2 facts are astounding.



Conclusion to ponder: American citizens and its universities have experienced an ivy-laden ivory tower for the past half century. Students, however, can no longer assume that a four year degree will be the golden ticket to a good job in a global economy that cares little for their social networking skills and more about what their labor is worth on the global marketplace.

Fareed Zakaria, as usual, has a well-thought-out solution. “We need,” he writes, “a program as ambitious as the GI Bill,” but one that focuses on retraining existing unemployed workers and redirecting our future students. Instead of liberal arts, he suggests focusing on technical education, technical institutes and polytechnics as well as apprenticeship programs. Our penchant for focusing on high tech value-added jobs should be modified and redirected, he claims, to mimic the German path, which allows people with good technical skills but limited college education to earn a decent living.

And of course the Communist CIA asset Zakaria says more Government involvement will solve the problem! Not getting rid of the Fed, fiat money or anything else that promotes this Satanic Usury based fractional reserve banking. But if we just 'retrain' (re-educate) existing proletariats and 'redirect' (re-educate) the future Socialists. Again we see him declare that people are nothing more than worker bees. A 'productive unit' for the Communist STATE. A Robot. A hard laborer for the STATE. One that cannot be influenced by moral or religous values. Pne that is subserviant to his job and the STATE.

madfranks
21st June 2011, 05:08 PM
The article had some good points, but it's completely absurd to say that "College is worthless". Many of us here on GSUS have college degrees that we use in the advancement of our own careers. The best example I can think of is Mamboni, ask him if college was worthless to him. And for me, as a licensed architect, college wasn't worthless to me; I learned the skills that allow me to make a living doing what I love in college. Yes, stupid people pursuing stupid degrees are worthless, but not all of us fit in that category.

AndreaGail
21st June 2011, 07:02 PM
by and large yes, but as madfranks pointed out they are necessary for many professional occupations like architecture, accounting, etc

as an aside, I read a headline today stating that the easiest major in college is an education degree..oh the irony

Barbaro
21st June 2011, 07:06 PM
Very insightful article once again by Gross. Thanks, Ares.

Every aspect of the 4 years American Uni degree should not only be questioned but changed. The cost, the debt-burden, the filler classes, the time it takes (usually 4-5 years) and the payoff.

I was lucky I got out of Uni 16 years ago.

Hatha Sunahara
21st June 2011, 11:26 PM
Colleges, even high schools might be worth something if they started teaching people how the money system enslaves them. But until they do, they will be completely worthless.


Hatha

General of Darkness
21st June 2011, 11:40 PM
A degree is a reason for people to interview you, and if you know people you don't even need an interview. So you land the job of your dreams, pays 50K, but you owe 100K in tuition fees. I guess the plan is for everyone to be debt for EVER, and too never be in a situation to buck the system that you've fed into without having the world come crashing on you head.

keehah
22nd June 2011, 12:31 AM
College may have to reinvent itsef and return to the 'good old days'. Primarily a place were people went because they wanted to learn about things and how to learn about things.

Buddha
22nd June 2011, 12:47 AM
College degree is like the FRN. It's worth something, but then again, it isn't.

vacuum
22nd June 2011, 12:54 AM
I can't speak for any other degrees, but I'd say that an engineering degree has value.

TomD
22nd June 2011, 06:21 AM
At Georgia Tech in the early 70's I was on the GI Bill which, in addition to a part time job, paid for everything. There was no debt. In state tuition was $80 a quarter and another $40-$50 for books. I'd say the BS Civil Engineering degree that I got was worth it many times over.

A degree in Women's Studies with a 6 figure debt load, not so much.

Sparky
22nd June 2011, 08:24 AM
College isn't worthless. But there are problems with it's current structure.

College has a lot of good things going for it: the academic education, networking with people, transitioning to adulthood, exposure to new ideas, etc.

The biggest problem is the price structure. The base cost is generally too high, and there's great inequity in the price being discounted for some, at the expense of others.

Other problems: As Barbaro said, there are problems with the "filler classes". Not that they are bad, but usually you can't take the ones you really want because either they don't fit your schedule or because there are too many specific ones that are mandatory. Also, this country has fermented the idea that everyone should aspire to go to college; this has contributed to the high price, and the dilution of the value of the diploma.

Olmstein
22nd June 2011, 08:35 AM
The article had some good points, but it's completely absurd to say that "College is worthless". Many of us here on GSUS have college degrees that we use in the advancement of our own careers. The best example I can think of is Mamboni, ask him if college was worthless to him. And for me, as a licensed architect, college wasn't worthless to me; I learned the skills that allow me to make a living doing what I love in college. Yes, stupid people pursuing stupid degrees are worthless, but not all of us fit in that category.

I'm sure Mamboni could sit around all day, surfing the 'net, and making funny photoshop pictures, without his college degree. :)

Seriously though, the exponential rise in the cost of college is a perfect example of government trying to solve a "problem", only to make it much worse. The government tried to make college more affordable, by giving grants, and student loans to anyone who wanted to go to school. College now costs exactly what the government is willing to grant/lend to students. Why would a college charge less than what they know the government is willing to pay? The government has distorted the market by placing an artificial floor on the cost of education.

This is happening to medical costs, too.

mamboni
22nd June 2011, 09:04 AM
I'm sure Mamboni could sit around all day, surfing the 'net, and making funny photoshop pictures, without his college degree. :)

Seriously though, the exponential rise in the cost of college is a perfect example of government trying to solve a "problem", only to make it much worse. The government tried to make college more affordable, by giving grants, and student loans to anyone who wanted to go to school. College now costs exactly what the government is willing to grant/lend to students. Why would a college charge less than what they know the government is willing to pay? The government has distorted the market by placing an artificial floor on the cost of education.

This is happening to medical costs, too.

You've probably noticed that I am not posting photoshop images in the multiplicity of the past. Of late, work has put greater demands on my time. On the larger question, speaking as someone with a 4 year degree, and 12 years of postgraduate education and training, let me say this:

1. College is too long and extremely inefficient, packaged with overpriced courses that one doesn't need (for future jobs) or whose educational value coulde be obtained privately for free.
2. One gets a diploma more as a ticket to ride, not a certification of competency. I've known many educated idiots. The college grad is an overpriced package deal that employers may or may not want to pay for.
3. Certain professions require a college education, such as medicine, engineering, architecture, law and others. But the course work can be greatly shortened (and savings realized) by stripping away peripheral courses and integrating work/on-the-job apprenticeships earlier.
4. The emphasis on college over technical/apprenticeship education has been misguided. The Germans have it right. American education is overpriced, too long, lacking in practical experience, and consequently inefficient and represents misallocation of capital investment.
5. We need to move away from the 4-year degree and move towards modular education and online education. Some kids do not want to sit in a classroom and get talked at for 4 years. These kids could be employed as apprentices and master modules of education as needed by their employer.

EE_
22nd June 2011, 09:17 AM
Body Processing will be the #1 growth industry in the next decade.
Get a degree that will help you enter into this industry and you will be employed for the rest of your life.
People will be dying to give you work!

Ponce
22nd June 2011, 09:45 AM
Ponce <----------- only a 10th grade education and better off than 96% than those with a college education........I could be broke today and in two years I would be back where I am today...................unless you want to be a Dr., arqui, chemist, eng. scientist and so on education is a waste of time........is not what you know but what you do with what you know.

First bragging :) post of the day.........good morning to one and all

Canadian-guerilla
22nd June 2011, 09:54 AM
I can't speak for any other degrees, but I'd say that an engineering degree has value.

but couldn't someone put in 2-3 years as an apprentice and get paid while they learn ?
if i owned a company, i'd want to teach a new guy the basics AND what is important/relevant to my company

madfranks
22nd June 2011, 09:57 AM
The government tried to make college more affordable, by giving grants, and student loans to anyone who wanted to go to school. College now costs exactly what the government is willing to grant/lend to students. Why would a college charge less than what they know the government is willing to pay? The government has distorted the market by placing an artificial floor on the cost of education.

This is it exactly. Having completed my college education in the last decade, the bad thing is I had to pay a ton more for my education than people who went to college in the 70's or 80's, but the good (for me) thing is all of my peers are so stupid that I've never had a problem out-competing 99% of them.

madfranks
22nd June 2011, 10:01 AM
but couldn't someone put in 2-3 years as an apprentice and get paid while they learn ?
if i owned a company, i'd want to teach a new guy the basics AND what is important/relevant to my company

I know it's similar in the engineering field, but as an architect I needed the education and a 3 year apprenticeship, which they call an internship today. When I started my first job in the field, my supervisors and superiors didn't have the time to teach me basic drafting (by hand or computer) and the types of drawings that go in a set of construction documents. Those were basic things that I had to know before I started my internship.

JohnQPublic
22nd June 2011, 10:06 AM
I think the issue is not college, but rather what people are getting degrees in. Stick to sciences and engineering, medicine, etc. - fields that are complex enough to make the concentrated studying worthwhile. If you can affford college, get a degree in whatever you want, but don't expect it to pay back directly.

In the 1980as and 90s there was a lot of talk about companies wanting people with liberal arts majors because it made them a "more rounded" person. I suspect this is largely bunk, and just turns the university into a brain washing machine. A large % of people who get through a liberal arts degree will hold the liberal ideas that dominate the current failed cultural paradigm.

Dogman
22nd June 2011, 10:35 AM
I think the issue is not college, but rather what people are getting degrees in. Stick to sciences and engineering, medicine, etc. - fields that are complex enough to make the concentrated studying worthwhile. If you can affford college, get a degree in whatever you want, but don't expect it to pay back directly.

In the 1980as and 90s there was a lot of talk about companies wanting people with liberal arts majors because it made them a "more rounded" person. I suspect this is largely bunk, and just turns the university into a brain washing machine. A large % of people who get through a liberal arts degree will hold the liberal ideas that dominate the current failed cultural paradigm.

It goes back farther than that! Liberal arts was pushed in the 60's and 70's also, very heavily for most.

vacuum
22nd June 2011, 12:46 PM
but couldn't someone put in 2-3 years as an apprentice and get paid while they learn ?
if i owned a company, i'd want to teach a new guy the basics AND what is important/relevant to my company
Two things. First, if the job requires highly skilled people to teach remedial things, it is slowing them down. Second, if the job is simple enough that it can be performed after simple instruction and examples, what you need is a technician not an engineer.

Ares
22nd June 2011, 01:08 PM
Two things. First, if the job requires highly skilled people to teach remedial things, it is slowing them down. Second, if the job is simple enough that it can be performed after simple instruction and examples, what you need is a technician not an engineer.

That's how it is in the job field. I've been doing what I do for over 17 years now. I've been trained, (when I was new to the field of Information Technology) and have trained people just graduating college with a fucking masters degree. They spent 6 years obtaining a degree and don't have the slightest clue how to manage Active Directory. No idea how group policies are applied, or how parents OU's (organization units) even function relative to department, or even how to route specific protocols on a network. Nothing and I mean NOTHING beats hands on experience.

College is an extremely bad joke foisted upon the American public. Everyone from the age of 5 in my generation was told, Graduate high school, go to college get a good job. Not once did I hear invent something new, be self determined, start your own business.

No! Go get a job and work for someone else, because you'll need too after you've spent 4 years and untold thousands of FRN's for a degree that's virtually worthless in the grand scheme of things. Especially when you get out and don't have a single clue on how to do the job you supposedly have a degree in.

We have degree inflation for a reason, it's because everyone was told that it was a "golden ticket" into the easy life. It's a lie. If college issued refunds I would be the first in line to refund what I paid into this system, because quite honestly I didn't learn shit that I didn't already know. I could of went without the blatant liberal hypocrisy and advocacy day in and day out from one "professor" to the next.

Dogman
22nd June 2011, 01:13 PM
I know it's similar in the engineering field, but as an architect I needed the education and a 3 year apprenticeship, which they call an internship today. When I started my first job in the field, my supervisors and superiors didn't have the time to teach me basic drafting (by hand or computer) and the types of drawings that go in a set of construction documents. Those were basic things that I had to know before I started my internship.

That is the very best rout to go. In my working life and jobs, I have met many young engineers right out of collage, that were book smart, engineers, but ignorant as rocks when it came to real life engineering. Theory and reality sometimes do not go hand in hand.
It would always be fun to argue with them saying what they want to do will not work the way they want it to. Then do it as they say and grin , when proven they were wrong. Then show the reasons their way would not work. Being pissed off at them, knowing they were wrong, but also happy to teach them the , how's and what was wrong with their way.

Collage as others have said is a must for some fields. One the job training is good for other fields. And all jobs have their way of doing things, no two are alike.

Ares
22nd June 2011, 01:16 PM
That is the very best rout to go. In my working life and jobs, I have met many young engineers right out of collage, that were book smart, engineers, but ignorant as rocks when it came to real life engineering. Theory and reality sometimes do not go hand in hand.
It would always be fun to argue with them saying what they want to do will not work the way they want it to. Then do it as they say and grin , when proven they were wrong. Then show the reasons their way would not work. Being pissed off at them, knowing they were wrong, but also happy to teach them the , how's and what was wrong with their way.

Collage as others have said is a must for some fields. One the job training is good for other fields. And all jobs have their way of doing things, no two are alike.

Most of my time with a new guy or gal just out of college is literally deprogramming all that they have learned. They learn theory, not practice. Especially with Microsoft products. They have certain ways to do things and expect it on their test. But in reality there are better and more efficient ways to transfer files and documents instead of using their stupid file transfer wizard. Copy / Paste for example.

Dogman
22nd June 2011, 01:20 PM
Most of my time with a new guy or gal just out of college is literally deprogramming all that they have learned. They learn theory, not practice. Especially with Microsoft products. They have certain ways to do things and expect it on their test. But in reality there are better and more efficient ways to transfer files and documents instead of using their stupid file transfer wizard. Copy / Paste for example.

Yes

This applies across all engineering discipline's!


IMHO

TomD
22nd June 2011, 01:49 PM
I know it's similar in the engineering field, but as an architect I needed the education and a 3 year apprenticeship, which they call an internship today. When I started my first job in the field, my supervisors and superiors didn't have the time to teach me basic drafting (by hand or computer) and the types of drawings that go in a set of construction documents. Those were basic things that I had to know before I started my internship.

It's the same in engineering, you don't exactly hire on to an engineering firm when fresh out of school and start pumping out designs unsupervised. First you have to start more study and pass the EIT (engineer in training) exam. After that comes more work and study as you gain real life experience and get ready to take the PE (professional engineer) exam. Those two steps can take years. Theoretically anyone can take the exams and you don't need the degree but never seen that happen. Even after you get a PE, you're going to have to get a track record before anyone will really trust your work.

Horn
22nd June 2011, 02:50 PM
I learned the skills that allow me to make a living doing what I love in college.

I can't tell for Architects, but Engineers don't learn a damn thing in college


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb3d4_Unp0M

Ps. College is worth less than real world experience.

Stop Making Cents
22nd June 2011, 05:14 PM
Being a young man and trying to find a decent job / career path was very stressful. I'm not necessarily anti-union but it seemed like the only way to get into one was if you knew somebody. It was a tough time of life, without a doubt trying to figure something out to scrape out a living.

mightymanx
22nd June 2011, 07:26 PM
The education inflation was by design. The federal government took over the student loan program a few years back and also rewrote the bankruptcy laws so that only Death can discharge a student loan without payment in full plus interest.

So the Federal government is raking in 7% of every dollar spent on education. That is one hell of a good guaranteed bond return.

Why would there be any incentive for this to stop?

madfranks
22nd June 2011, 09:02 PM
I can't tell for Architects, but Engineers don't learn a damn thing in college

Ps. College is worth less than real world experience.

I didn't know anyone who could teach me the skills I needed to be an architect, therefore I paid someone to teach them to me. Here's the difference between me and most of my school peers - I used what I was taught to become an architect and am now designing buildings for a living. Most of my old schoolmates went into something else and their degree is now useless to them. That's all it is, in a nutshell.

madfranks
22nd June 2011, 09:14 PM
That's how it is in the job field. I've been doing what I do for over 17 years now. I've been trained, (when I was new to the field of Information Technology) and have trained people just graduating college with a fucking masters degree. They spent 6 years obtaining a degree and don't have the slightest clue how to manage Active Directory. No idea how group policies are applied, or how parents OU's (organization units) even function relative to department, or even how to route specific protocols on a network. Nothing and I mean NOTHING beats hands on experience.

College is an extremely bad joke foisted upon the American public. Everyone from the age of 5 in my generation was told, Graduate high school, go to college get a good job. Not once did I hear invent something new, be self determined, start your own business.

No! Go get a job and work for someone else, because you'll need too after you've spent 4 years and untold thousands of FRN's for a degree that's virtually worthless in the grand scheme of things. Especially when you get out and don't have a single clue on how to do the job you supposedly have a degree in.

We have degree inflation for a reason, it's because everyone was told that it was a "golden ticket" into the easy life. It's a lie. If college issued refunds I would be the first in line to refund what I paid into this system, because quite honestly I didn't learn shit that I didn't already know. I could of went without the blatant liberal hypocrisy and advocacy day in and day out from one "professor" to the next.

I had to thank you for your post, because you share a lot of detail of what it's like for you, even though I disagree with much of it. Fresh out of school, the first time I was given an assignment to draw some stair sections and detail the connections to the building structure, I freaked out because I never learned how to do that in school; but what I did learn how to do was draw accurately with proper lineweights and I knew where to look (building code, graphic standards, etc) to figure out the rest. You are right in that nothing can beat hands on experience, but that's not all you need. Without college, I wouldn't have had the basic skills to be able to perform my job duties and learn the intricacies of real life architectural practice through my hands on experience. School was 50% of what I needed, real life application and practice was the other 50%.

Ares
22nd June 2011, 09:49 PM
I had to thank you for your post, because you share a lot of detail of what it's like for you, even though I disagree with much of it. Fresh out of school, the first time I was given an assignment to draw some stair sections and detail the connections to the building structure, I freaked out because I never learned how to do that in school; but what I did learn how to do was draw accurately with proper lineweights and I knew where to look (building code, graphic standards, etc) to figure out the rest. You are right in that nothing can beat hands on experience, but that's not all you need. Without college, I wouldn't have had the basic skills to be able to perform my job duties and learn the intricacies of real life architectural practice through my hands on experience. School was 50% of what I needed, real life application and practice was the other 50%.

But you could of learned those things while under an apprenticeship. I didn't enjoy my time in college quite honestly. I felt like the whole thing was a waste of time and money. 4 years and a number of classes I never would of taken I have a piece of paper that states I have a Bachelors in computer information systems. Whoopee do. I already knew the difference between Macintosh, Microsoft, Linux, and Unix. I already knew how to troubleshoot hardware / software problems. The thing I hated most was taking classes that had absolutely no bearing on my field of choice. To top it all off I even went to get my CCNA just to be more marketable. Which as sad as it was in 2001 was worth more than a degree. I quit going a couple times, and finally have my degree. If I had to do it all over again. I wouldn't..

Horn
23rd June 2011, 06:53 AM
I didn't know anyone who could teach me the skills I needed to be an architect, therefore I paid someone to teach them to me. Here's the difference between me and most of my school peers - I used what I was taught to become an architect and am now designing buildings for a living. Most of my old schoolmates went into something else and their degree is now useless to them. That's all it is, in a nutshell.

I know some Engineers who are completely miserable, they only chose the path due to an aptitude for it. Then still there are others that don't even have the aptitude for it, but once enrolled followed through. Most just chose it because it seemed the could make a decent living and were capable of it.

Many Doctors you see out there now are only in it for the money, that I can tell you, its not something they love.

Imagine if the only questions on an career application was why you chose & love the profession and what you had done in it...:rolleyes:

College may be good place to get a base level & extension of education, but as far as the mid range courses honed into one major or another most are overweighted with futility, trying to create the "well rounded" or specific arena, and achieving neither. It becomes only cash driven in that area.

osoab
23rd June 2011, 07:35 AM
You can't call yourself an Engineer or and Architect without that little piece of paper. I was looking at the curriculum at our local university for both fields. Some of the courses for Structural Engineering was completely worthless to real word work. The Architecture classes seemed like a lot of stuff that is fluff to pay for some tenured professors.

I deal with engineers and architects throughout the week. Even the good ones (engineers who still mostly do hand drawings) sometimes don't see the big picture. Most of the architects I deal with are only concerned of "the look". They have no clue of how to obtain the goal of their intentions. Most of them anymore are just completely lazy on their design prints. Half assed strung together drawings that always seem to have conflicts and are missing information from the get go. I am thinking that most of this piece meal crap that is drawn up is due to low bid contracts. They can't spend the time on the project with out cutting into profit margin.

College has it's place don't get me wrong. I just think it really has to do with the attitude of the individual. The ones who care put forth the effort. Some of them just want a title.

It's always fun to tell a guy/gal with a professional degree that their shit wrong. Almost always brings a smile to my face after the problem is fixed.

still afloat
23rd June 2011, 07:50 AM
My personal opinion in looking back ,is that if I had gone with a 2 + or - year trade school and skipped the extra 2 + years of how to make a beer bong or how to spot the freshman virgin that will put out to fit in. The extra years of fluff classes that added to my bill for no benefit to my life or income.My life as well as my families life would be at a better place right now.
Guess that's just one more reason there will never be a class taught on building a time machine.

Horn
23rd June 2011, 08:15 AM
It's always fun to tell a guy/gal with a professional degree that their shit wrong. Almost always brings a smile to my face after the problem is fixed.

Place I worked for in Vegas was one of the few that actually took in & listened to contractors, they did very well due to that difference.

Other companies didn't even have a clue what crap they were putting on paper, and if a change come up they would sign off on the entire job. LOL

madfranks
23rd June 2011, 09:19 AM
You can't call yourself an Engineer or and Architect without that little piece of paper. I was looking at the curriculum at our local university for both fields. Some of the courses for Structural Engineering was completely worthless to real word work. The Architecture classes seemed like a lot of stuff that is fluff to pay for some tenured professors.

I deal with engineers and architects throughout the week. Even the good ones (engineers who still mostly do hand drawings) sometimes don't see the big picture. Most of the architects I deal with are only concerned of "the look". They have no clue of how to obtain the goal of their intentions. Most of them anymore are just completely lazy on their design prints. Half assed strung together drawings that always seem to have conflicts and are missing information from the get go. I am thinking that most of this piece meal crap that is drawn up is due to low bid contracts. They can't spend the time on the project with out cutting into profit margin.

College has it's place don't get me wrong. I just think it really has to do with the attitude of the individual. The ones who care put forth the effort. Some of them just want a title.

It's always fun to tell a guy/gal with a professional degree that their shit wrong. Almost always brings a smile to my face after the problem is fixed.

Yeah, the piece of paper isn't the ticket to competency, but like mamboni said, you have to have the ticket to get on the ride. So the degree for me is the ticket, but in the end of the day, it's my ability to perform that matters.

And yes, I agree that many of my peers in the architectural field couldn't design their way out of a paper bag, but hey, I could tell you some stories of contractors who couldn't do their shit either. Unbelievable stuff, stuff you wouldn't believe. :o ;D

Horn
23rd June 2011, 09:53 AM
The little piece of paper isn't the only pre-requesite requirement from the overlords now.

Now there may be some advantage to a professional who takes the time to keep on top of nuevo industry guidelines. But to enforce it as a matter of law is a different story.

Your badge is only temporary & subject to renewal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuing_education_unit

All put on as a party from your custom tailored fascist business supplier.



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