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keehah
24th June 2011, 03:51 PM
"A lot of people are going to have things break and they're not going to know why,"

The clock is the sheep story, my angle may be too severe but admitted! Varing or changed electrical grid frequency . That is how the Israeli virus destroyed the nuclear equipment, by changing frequencies while things were running. Interesting run the grid with less peak power angle, as well as a whiff of earth and or grid harmonic effects (teluric currents) resulting in different frequency harmonics in different areas.

If your concerned the AP included government contacts that will give you the time of day. (LOL)

PysOrg: Power grid change may disrupt clocks (http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-06-power-grid-disrupt-clocks.html)
June 24, 2011 By SETH BORENSTEIN , AP Science Writer

A yearlong experiment with the nation's electric grid could mess up traffic lights, security systems and some computers - and make plug-in clocks and appliances like programmable coffeemakers run up to 20 minutes fast.

"A lot of people are going to have things break and they're not going to know why," said Demetrios Matsakis, head of the time service department at the U.S. Naval Observatory, one of two official timekeeping agencies in the federal government...

The group that oversees the U.S. power grid is proposing an experiment would allow more frequency variation than it does now without corrections, according to a company presentation obtained by The Associated Press.

Officials say they want to try this to make the power supply more reliable, save money and reduce what may be needless efforts. The test is tentatively set to start in mid-July, but that could change.

Tweaking the power grid's frequency is expensive and takes a lot of effort, said Joe McClelland, head of electric reliability for the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.

"Is anyone using the grid to keep track of time?" McClelland said. "Let's see if anyone complains if we eliminate it."

No one is quite sure what will be affected...

The North American Electric Reliability Corp. runs the nation's interlocking web of transmission lines and power plants. A June 14 company presentation spelled out the potential effects of the change: East Coast clocks may run as much as 20 minutes fast over a year, but West Coast clocks are only likely to be off by 8 minutes. In Texas, it's only an expected speedup of 2 minutes.

Some parts of the grid, like in the East, tend to run faster than others. Errors add up. If the grid averages just over 60 cycles a second, clocks that rely on the grid will gain 14 seconds per day, according to the company's presentation.

Spokeswoman Kimberly Mielcarek said the company is still discussing the test and gauging reactions to its proposal, and may delay the experiment a bit.

Mielcarek said in an email that the change is about making the grid more reliable and that correcting the frequency for time deviations can cause other unnecessary problems for the grid. She wrote that any problems from the test are only possibilities.

...But Tom O'Brian, who heads the time and frequency division at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, expects widespread effects.

He said there are alternatives if people have problems from the test: The federal government provides the official time by telephone and on the Internet.

More information:
Official U.S. government time: http://time.gov or call 202-762-1401
North American Electric Reliability Corporation: http://www.nerc.com/
©2011 The Associated Press.

Dogman
24th June 2011, 04:00 PM
This may be interesting to see what will happen , if they vary the frequency above or below the 60 Hz standard, there could be trouble synchronizing the generators on shared power grids. And that could cause big trouble in the power stations , and with users.

Glass
24th June 2011, 05:04 PM
Lets hope all the machines that go ping! in the hospitals keep working as expected. I wonder if the oxygen machines would run faster or slower? What about the drug pumps?

keehah
24th June 2011, 05:32 PM
One needs a subscription for whole article.

Scientific American: Hacking the Lights Out: The Computer Virus Threat to the Electrical Grid
Computer viruses have taken out hardened industrial control systems. The electrical power grid may be next (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=hacking-the-lights-out)
By David M. Nicol | June 20, 2011

In Brief

Every facet of the modern electrical grid is controlled by computers. It is our greatest example of physical infrastructure interlinked with electronics.

The Stuxnet virus that infected Iran’s nuclear program showed just how vulnerable machines could be to a well-crafted electronic virus.

The grid shares many of the vulnerabilities that Stuxnet exposed; being larger, its vulnerabilities are, if anything, more numerous.

Although a sophisticated attack could bring down a large chunk of the U.S. electrical grid, security is being ramped up.

Gaillo
24th June 2011, 06:05 PM
Lets hope all the machines that go ping! in the hospitals keep working as expected. I wonder if the oxygen machines would run faster or slower? What about the drug pumps?

All of the things you mentioned are microprocessor controlled, with independent crystal-driven timebases. They should not be affected by this. In fact, MOST of the modern world's high-tech equipment doesn't give a rats ass what the power-line frequency is... only older stuff and "cheap-o" consumer crap without microprocessor control is likely to be affected by this.

palani
24th June 2011, 06:24 PM
Dranetz equipment (diagnostic equipment used to record power line abnormalities) routinely pick up the small changes in zero crossing points when the power company adjusts the grid frequency. For a 20 minute change in a typical mechanical clock a 2 pole generator would have to be off synch by 72,000 revolutions, a 4 pole generator would have to be off synch by 36,000 revolutions and a 6 pole generator would have to be off synch by 24,000 revolutions (during the time period the 20 minute change was recorded).

All they do is adjust the grid frequency. Generators do NOT lose synch with the grid.... ever ... without BIG BANGS!!!!

Dogman
24th June 2011, 06:26 PM
Found a good explanation on a forum, about why line frequency is so important.

http://www.epanorama.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1964



For most of the appliances +/- 1 Hz variation is not critical at all.
Keeping that frequency variation small is critical for the operation of the electrical network and for the applications where the mains frequency is used to run clocks. For clock applications it is essential that the number of mains cycles in one day or longer time period should stay as much as possible same. Of example if at some time mains frequency slows down, then later on when things have been corrected mains frequency is run somewhat higher frequency.

The mains frequency should be stable because mains power network is a distributed power system, where many power plants feed power to the same grid. All those power plants within one network need needs to be very carefully in sync to be able all feeding power to the network, meaning all pushing the positive voltage at the same time, negative voltage at the same time, zero crosses at the same time. If the power plants were not in sync, this would not work (at some time some power plant would feed power to network, and some other on different phase would try to to take power out...). It is a very careful planning and adjustment to keep each power plant to operate well so that the phase of the power coming of their generator is just very very slightly ahead of the network phase and at right voltage, so that is pushes the right amount of current to network (based on how much the power plant is designed to give and what amount of that the plant has agreed to supply at the given time). If the generator is somewhat behind the phase, the current flow is from network to generator, and generator would try to works as an electric motor (this is not what is wanted). Power plant engineers and automatic control systems make sure that their plans work a planned. If things do not work correctly, there are protection relays (they are called relays, but are actually complicated microprocessor based protection devices) that disconnect the power plant in case something bad happens (too much current flows in any direction, or any considerable current starts to flow from network to generator).

A power network frequency in 50 Hz frequency on normal power network in typically in something like 49.5 to 50.5 Hz range. If the frequency goes beyond those limits there is something terribly wring. The mains frequency starts to drop when there is more consumption than the power plants can properly produce at the moment, and frequency starts to go up when there is more supply than demand... When frequency starts to slow beyond those limits I gave, new power plants sources needs to be connected to the electrical power network or some loads needs to be disconnected from it to keep it stable. When frequency starts to go up, the power feed to network needs to reduced (power plant controls needs to be adjusted or power plants are disconnected to network).

The frequency variation can be greater at some "separate network", for example few equipment powered by your own small generator, your DC to AC converter, electrical networks on boats/ships etc..

Many typical mains operated equipment can nicely take some frequency changes quite nicely. Usually something like +-5% or +-10% on the frequency is not too much problem for most devices. If frequency is slower, electrical motors will run somewhat slower and may become slightly hotter when frequency goes down, and runs faster when frequency g goes up.. For normal transformers when voltage stays at normal limits (not in extremes) slight frequency change is not a problem. Typically transformers are designed for certain minimal frequency and maximum voltage they can handle at that frequency. Going at that voltage to lower frequencies can start to saturate the transformer (starts to distort signals and heat up the transformers considerably). You can go to lower frequency than the normal limits if the input voltage is reduced as the voltage drops. Typical mains transformers do not have any considerably problems when running at somewhat higher than normal operating frequency, meaning normal 50 Hz mains transformers have no problem at all in running at 60 Hz. If you go much beyond that (something like 400 Hz or higher) problems might start to come into picture (leakage inductances, increased core losses at higher frequencies etc. can be problem).

A typical "normal" mains power transformer designed for 60Hz frequency cannot operate at say 50 Hz since the magnetic flux will reach greater value to maintain the same induced voltage at secondary which causes the core to saturated. But if you have an "oversizes" transformer core on normally 60 Hz frequency, should not have problems in running at 50 Hz. The thing is that you can design a 60 Hz transformer that can also run at 50 Hz easily, but it is more expensive to make such thing than 60 Hz transform that can just handle 60 Hz and higher frequencies. The economics say that the cheaper alternative wins on 60 Hz only markets.

7th trump
24th June 2011, 07:02 PM
Dranetz equipment (diagnostic equipment used to record power line abnormalities) routinely pick up the small changes in zero crossing points when the power company adjusts the grid frequency. For a 20 minute change in a typical mechanical clock a 2 pole generator would have to be off synch by 72,000 revolutions, a 4 pole generator would have to be off synch by 36,000 revolutions and a 6 pole generator would have to be off synch by 24,000 revolutions (during the time period the 20 minute change was recorded).

All they do is adjust the grid frequency. Generators do NOT lose synch with the grid.... ever ... without BIG BANGS!!!!
No big bang from generators you can only change the frequency by adjusting the revolution of the generators.
The chicken comes before the egg in this case.

7th trump
24th June 2011, 07:05 PM
All of the things you mentioned are microprocessor controlled, with independent crystal-driven timebases. They should not be affected by this. In fact, MOST of the modern world's high-tech equipment doesn't give a rats ass what the power-line frequency is... only older stuff and "cheap-o" consumer crap without microprocessor control is likely to be affected by this.


My refrigerator is microcontroller controlled but the motor running the pump requires 60 hz or it goes poof!

palani
24th June 2011, 07:29 PM
No big bang from generators you can only change the frequency by adjusting the revolution of the generators.
The chicken comes before the egg in this case.

In the case of the power grid you have MANY generators tied together. One generator picks up more load than the other by leading in phase. On the other hand lagging phase results in less load on the generator relative to others on the grid. While phase can change slightly all generators operate at the same frequency.

Motors operate with slip. Generators ... not so much.

Dogman
24th June 2011, 07:34 PM
In the case of the power grid you have MANY generators tied together. One generator picks up more load than the other by leading in phase. On the other hand lagging phase results in less load on the generator relative to others on the grid. While phase can change slightly all generators operate at the same frequency.

Motors operate with slip. Generators ... not so much.

One class of motors do not slip- synchronous, they stay locked to the rotating magnetic field.

Mouse
25th June 2011, 01:15 AM
If you are interested in the actual facts, you can go to the grid operators. Here is one link:

http://www.midwestmarket.org/page/Area+Control+Error

ACE is area control error where the source/sink is out of balance. There is also TCE which is time control error, brought about by an imbalance of phase. The things that are measured are ACE TCE and other disturbance control metrics. There are numerous other things that keep all this together including Phase Angle, operating reserves, inadvertant exchanges and multiples of etc. If you are interested in the security of the "grid" NERC is your goto site.

http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=2|20

All of this means not shit to your alarm clock. When you get rolling blackouts/brownouts and finally blackout.....then it will sink in.

The grid is alive and well-managed as best as monkey minds can manage.

A well placed internet attack would essentially destroy the planet.

I have done a lot of CIP work and the most vulnerable spot in the entire US energy infrastructure is www.oati.com (http://www.oati.com). If their stuff went offline North America would go offline. .

Sleep well.

edited to not be suicided

keehah
30th June 2011, 02:31 AM
Thanks guys for the good explanations.

I offer a vapid conjector that riffs on the topic of hell breaking loose when this starts.

XTC: Spinning Top (White Music 1978 )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8aHcjZJ1lE

Neuro
30th June 2011, 03:01 AM
How about if the experiment in changing the grid frequency, starts an oscillation of the frequency, that spirals out of controll, iow the oscillation in the beginning is small, but because of inertia in the system the oscillations grow bigger and bigger with higher frequency, that could wreak havoc, in generators and distribution stations, couldn't it?

7th trump
30th June 2011, 04:51 AM
In the case of the power grid you have MANY generators tied together. One generator picks up more load than the other by leading in phase. On the other hand lagging phase results in less load on the generator relative to others on the grid. While phase can change slightly all generators operate at the same frequency.

Motors operate with slip. Generators ... not so much.
Power lines run a three phase cycle. All the phases are 60hz (60 revolutions per second). Each phase is 120 degree's off from the other making a total of 360 degree's.
I dont see how phase makes a difference as much as a generator is slowly cutting current done for another gen to maintain or increase current (picking up the load).
You would see the phase shift if one generator is slightly off from the other on an o-scope when testing an outlet and I've never heard of it nor see it.
Doesnt mean its not there just never heard of it.
I'll ask one of the guys in the power house here where I work if they phase shift a gen set (they have three 14,800v generators. well two now....one shorted out two weekends ago and made one hell of a fireball. nobody was hurt as the genset shuts itself down immediately) to pick up more load or visa versa.

7th trump
30th June 2011, 04:59 AM
How about if the experiment in changing the grid frequency, starts an oscillation of the frequency, that spirals out of controll, iow the oscillation in the beginning is small, but because of inertia in the system the oscillations grow bigger and bigger with higher frequency, that could wreak havoc, in generators and distribution stations, couldn't it?
Impossible to change grid frequency.
If the frequency changes so will the speed of motors say on your refrigerator and your lights in your house will either get dimmer or brighter depending on which way the frequency changes. Motors will burn up if the frequency changes drastically.
A 50hz european motor will not properly run on American 60hz system and eventually smoke.

Awoke
30th June 2011, 05:31 AM
Every generating station in North America is built to produce electricity at 60Hz.

palani
30th June 2011, 05:35 AM
Power lines run a three phase cycle. All the phases are 60hz (60 revolutions per second). Each phase is 120 degree's off from the other making a total of 360 degree's.
I dont see how phase makes a difference as much as a generator is slowly cutting current done for another gen to maintain or increase current (picking up the load).
You would see the phase shift if one generator is slightly off from the other on an o-scope when testing an outlet and I've never heard of it nor see it.
Doesnt mean its not there just never heard of it.
I'll ask one of the guys in the power house here where I work if they phase shift a gen set (they have three 14,800v generators. well two now....one shorted out two weekends ago and made one hell of a fireball. nobody was hurt as the genset shuts itself down immediately) to pick up more load or visa versa.

By phase I am referring to very small phase ANGLES between two sine waves. Lets say you have two generators. Each generate a sine wave. One generator is leading the other by 1 degree. If they are both strapped to a transmission line in parallel they provide different amounts of power. In this simple example they might even provide the same amount of power to the transmission line.

Now say one generator is 10 MW while the other is 500 kw and the line load is 5 MW. Obviously both generators don't pick up equal share of power. If the operator wants the 500 kw generator to operate at rated load and the 10 MW generator to operate at 4.5 MW he gooses the prime mover of the 500 kw generator slightly. When he does this the power fed into the transmission line by the smaller generator increases and the power provided by the larger generator decreases. Both generators are going to run at 60 hz but a very small phase angle is introduced into the output of one generator relative to the other. This is one way generators share load. The larger generator is not going to let the smaller generator take up the entire load. The two generators are coupled together through the network and the power the prime mover is capable of providing is a physical limitation. Another way to change the load ratio between generators is to increase or decrease the excitation (not intending to mislead that phase angle is the ONLY way).

Awoke
4th July 2011, 08:32 AM
By phase I am referring to very small phase ANGLES between two sine waves.

Both generators are going to run at 60 hz but a very small phase angle is introduced into the output of one generator relative to the other. This is one way generators share load. The larger generator is not going to let the smaller generator take up the entire load. The two generators are coupled together through the network and the power the prime mover is capable of providing is a physical limitation.

It's been years since I have thought about this stuff, but as far as I remember, if the generators are properly synchronized, the angle of lead VS lag between the two may be calculable, but for all intents and purposes it is negligable isn't it?

mick silver
4th July 2011, 04:34 PM
lets all say .......... BACK OUTS A COMING

palani
4th July 2011, 04:46 PM
It's been years since I have thought about this stuff, but as far as I remember, if the generators are properly synchronized, the angle of lead VS lag between the two may be calculable, but for all intents and purposes it is negligable isn't it?

Not negligible. The amount of excitation a generator gets and these small relative phase angles determine how much power it feeds into the network. Should things go crazy and one generator try to take on more than its share of power (say more than its prime mover can handle) then it will quickly go completely out of synch and the network might try to convert the generator itself to a prime move (a motor). Under these conditions sparks fly and breakers open.

All this is complicated by all these generators being located hundreds or thousands of miles apart. The transmission line is going to impose some phase angle of its own (delay) due to the distance of any point on the transmission line from any of the generators. Each generator gets synched to the network at its own location.

JDRock
6th July 2011, 10:25 AM
America does NOT run on oil...it runs on electricity......tick..tick...tick

osoab
18th July 2011, 12:35 PM
From Jim Stone

POWER GRID TAMPERING WILL END AN ERA (http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/grid.html)


See the update, which answers a question about DC connected main lines below this report. The entire premise of my report is based on the fact that you cannot run multiple frequencies simultaneously on the grid without separating it into sections and running them separately. That is what the AP report clearly implies when it says that clocks will run faster and slower in various regions. __________________________________________________ __________________________
A recent AP report states that there is a proposal in place to change the frequency various parts of the national electrical grid run at. The frequency differences will be minor, but will force an end to the national grid as we know it. The only way frequencies can be different at all in separate locations around the nation is to not have a grid at all.
They are attempting to childishly play this down as something that will mess up clocks. But what it really means is that they are going to dismantle the national power grid entirely.
And now I will dissect and shred this article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110624/ap_on_hi_te/us_sci_power_clocks)
First of all, they are saying that this is going to be a "year long experiment". It won't be. Since dismantling the grid amounts to an act of war, once it is dismantled we will not get it back. This "experiment" is exactly what you would want to do to a nation as a pre-emptive measure before attacking it. When destroying a nation, the basics have to go. You need to destroy the water, electrical, and food supplies to force people to surrender. By running different frequencies in different parts of the grid,the laws of physics clearly dictate that it has to be run in sections, all isolated from each other.
Many readers know that one of the strengths of the internet is it's distributed data paths, which make it very difficult to take down. If a line gets cut, you can just re-route through a different line, and all is well. Our interconnected power grid, which has been in place and running synchronously with perfect phase and frequency matching across it's entireity since 1930, is an electrical equivalent of the internet, and is a marvel of the world.
Our intact electrical grid will feed power to areas that have lost it, and keep their lights on. So let's say a hurricane takes out Louisiana and all their generating facilities are damaged - the grid will provide power from Texas to help them get back on their feet. If you want to knock out power in a war, you would need to isolate Louisiana FIRST so that Texas could not feed them after you destroyed their infrastructure. This is the only truthful reason why anyone would suggest dismantling one of our greatest national treasures.
We have in America a system which would allow Hoover dam to provide power to Boston. But those days have to end before an experiment like the one this article discusses can even happen. Here is why:
The article states: "The group that oversees the U.S. power grid is proposing an experiment would allow more frequency variation than it does now without corrections, according to a company presentation obtained by The Associated Press".
Here they say they will allow "more frequency variation". Well, that means that after most of a century of having zero frequency variation, that there will now be frequency variation. America's power grid has been perfectly synchronized since 1930 and has never varied by more than 1/10th of a cycle (1/600th of a second) from coast to coast in over 80 years. This is due largely to the fact that the grid causes generating facilities to lock into each other, and mimic each other's phasing exactly. Any deviation in any one facility against the predominant phasing of the grid will cause it to lose efficiency and in extreme cases be destroyed.
To say they will allow "MORE frequency variation" is a lie, because it implies there WAS frequency variation. THERE NEVER WAS, EVER. That is why clocks have used the grid frequency as a reference for 4 generations.
Folks, you cannot have any frequency variation on an interconnected electrical grid. This is because our 60 hz AC is a rising and falling wave form which goes from negative to positive 60 times a second. Negative and positive ALWAYS have to line up. If you deviate from a 60 hz frequency by even 0.001 hz on only one part of the grid, all it will take is ten seconds for that variation in frequency to cause it to begin rising and falling opposite to the rest of the grid. That would represent a positive to negative electrical short right from within the fabric of the grid itself. So there is no such thing as a "slightly faster running grid" out east, it's a bold faced lie completely counter to the laws of physics.
HERE IS ANOTHER LIE TO SHRED:
"The North American Electric Reliability Corp. runs the nation's interlocking web of transmission lines and power plants."
No they don't. No one company manages the grid. It is managed via cooperation and understanding of the laws of physics. This company is merely now the face of the lie. The fact that they have a long history has been SHREDDED by this proposal of theirs, buisnesses come and go, and these people need to head on out the door.
I myself have had to make calls for power allocations to avoid regional black-outs when demand was predicted to be high, and I certainly never called these folks! I just called the facility feeding us and THEY handled it. If they could not handle it, they had the power routed from another area. So for the North American Electric Reliability Corp. to say they manage it all is quite a statement! How do we know they are not a front company, set up as a bogus pre-paid corporation with a purchased "history"? I have a LOT of experience, and NEVER HEARD OF THEM.

And now the math, which proves them liars.

Here is how you prove that the real goal is to dismantle the grid.
Their claim was that they wanted an allowed deviation of 20 minutes per year on one coast in comparison with the opposite coast. So let's take 20 minutes and multiply it by 60 seconds. That's 1200 seconds. Then divide that by days in a year (365) which will give you 3.287 seconds of deviation PER DAY. Take that number and divide it by hours (24) and that gives you a deviation of 0.136 seconds per hour. Divide that by 60 minutes and the deviation is 0.0022826 seconds per minute. Divide that by 60 again. That gives you a deviation of 0.000038 seconds per second. Now MULTIPLY that by your cycles PER SECOND, which is 60. Right back to 0.0022826 phase difference per second.
Now here is where it gets interesting. Let's say I am running a 600,000 volt line. Since the frequency we are dealing with is 60 Hz, it fits perfectly into the equation. Multiply 0.0022826 as a representation of percentage by 600,000 volts. AC has a positive and negative cycle which effectively doubles that rate, for a total of 0.0045652% per second. Multiply that by 600,000 volts, and the voltage creep equals 2739 volts per SECOND. The math is pretty simple from there. One minute (60 seconds) x 2,739 volts will equal a 164,347 volt difference in phasing between interconnected coasts per minute. Major problems will happen within 15 seconds. Total phase desynchronization will occur in a little under three minutes.
This serves to prove that no frequency deviation at all can be tolerated in an interconnected grid and that this agency - the so called "North American Electrical Reliability Corp" is lying out their butt in this news release and therefore can only have been usurped by either paper trained idiots or an enemy that wants an end to the American power grid, because allowing "frequency variation" can mean only that. The AP article should finish them, OUT OF BUSINESS.
The bottom line? The American power grid, at no time ever in the last 80 years has ever been out of synchronization, by more than 0.001 second total per year coast to coast. The laws of physics will not allow it. We cannot allow ANYONE to disconnect our grid. 20 minutes a year would not cut it in tuvalu! Not even 1/60th of 1 second would. It is a mathematical impossibility to have ANY deviation on an interconnected grid.
And it gets worse . . . . .
When it comes to phase correlation, momentum can be the enemy.
The generators at electrical facilities are ENORMOUS. People may not realize how big they really are. Large electrical facilities need to be spun up before going online, it takes a long time to get the enormous mass of the generator moving and stabilized, sometimes even hours. Even modest generators are so big that the spinning mass can weigh hundreds of tons, and surface speeds of the armatures can be over 100 MPH. That's a LOT of speed on a LOT of mass. The massive size of these generators helps them be perfectly stable when running. There is so much momentum built up in a large industrial generator that even enormous peak draws from it can be soaked up without it being perceptibly slowed by the peaks at all.
If an enemy was running the government then, and people were happy to have frequencies changed for no good reason at all, electrical "tug of wars" between generators could be set up under the premise of "oops" to destroy them. Breaker disconnects under such situations are often unsuccessful due to contacts getting welded. I have seen problems happen in even tiny one megawatt units, where a controller malfunctioned and dropped them onto the same line when their phasing was only off by a fraction of a percent. One was going very slightly ahead the other, so it drove the other to go faster while the other slowed it down. The over-reactions were extreme; they ponged each other's speed up and down and the accelerations/decelerations were enormous, taking place within fractions of a second. I fully expected the windings to explode. I was blown away by how extreme their behavior was.
Even a pair of small generators can be caused to totally freak out from an initial phasing difference that is very minor. This problem would be greatly exacerbated in a power play between multiple enormous generators. Electrical explosions would no doubt result, in the case I witnessed, they both got the right bounce within a couple seconds and stabilized. It was a brief and exciting event. Things are normally not so lucky and the answer is obvious - If you want no problems in the electrical grid, a perfect standard frequency should be the norm, as it always has been for over 80 years.
However, if you were an enemy in posession of a virus like Stuxnet, a non-interconnected grid with all the switch gear from when it was previously connected still in place to play with could be lots of FUN!. To blow out two regions at the same time, all you would have to do is activate switch gear that is already in place from the old grid when both regions are out of phase with each other. Doing so would cause serious damage to equipment in both regions.
Want to blow a nuclear reactor? Here's a good way to try! SUDDENLY and without announcement, introduce a frequency difference on the grid. Suddenly that nuke plant would be forced to deal with a rapid phase inversion on the grid. With all the stored momentum in the generators available for a nice peak surge output, thousands and thousands of times higher than anything they could ever handle if suddenly the coupled phases were inverted, there would be at a minimum enormous explosions in the circuit breakers and switch gear, and most likely enormous explosions from within the generator windings themselves.
Suddenly, with the windings and switch gear blown in an instant, there would be nothing left to load the generator, which needs to be held back from accelerating by the electrical system it is feeding power into. You would get a brief period of rapid acceleration before safety shutoffs re-routed steam from the generator's turbines to an emergency bypass. Things would get sketchy after this. YOU NEED TO GET RID OF THAT STEAM.
At a minimum, safety valves should open on the reactor or whatever else (coal fired boiler) to release the sudden steam pressure buildup resulting from the turbine steam not being needed anymore. If the system was infected with Stuxnet, (85 percent of our power generating facilities can be) and Stuxnet was programmed to over ride the emergency steam release valves as was the case at Fukushima, things WILL explode. Said explosions would not be minor. The worst possible case scenario would be a nuclear reactor which was running at full output suddenly not having it's steam be needed anymore, be kept at full thermal output by a virus that also forces all the safety related equipment to not activate.
Clandestine military action is the only reason any thinking engineer would want to suggest acceptance of variances in the grid frequency. There is no possible way to derive any sort of benefit from not keeping the frequency dead on, as it has always been.
But it gets worse, even
Every motor powered device depends upon the grid frequency to regulate how hard it runs itself. All of the design characteristics involving material stress and current draw are centered around an always reliable 60 hz frequency. If the frequency was increased to 70 hz, swamp coolers would burn up from trying to run too fast, as would air conditioners, washing machines, ect. The amount they are talking about in the article would not be that high, but I believe it is the end goal and introducing the concept of tampering with the frequency is like a toe dip to see if there are any pihranas out in the public sphere to look out for while they slowly weaponize the power grid. I will happily provide the first bite. What if they choose 90 hz? 100hz? Not much would survive that, and whatever did would not be the same anymore. Welcome to the third world.
Here is a great quote to rip, this is an outright lie
Some parts of the grid, like in the East, tend to run faster than others. Errors add up. If the grid averages just over 60 cycles a second, clocks that rely on the grid will gain 14 seconds per day, according to the company's presentation."
There is zero frequency variation on the grid between east and west coasts. It is physically impossible for them to vary by even 1/10th of a cycle (1/600th of a second) per year. ANY drift will cause immediate phase cancellation with other parts of the grid resulting in immediate grid failure. The entire grid HAS TO go up or down SIMULTANEOUSLY. There is NO SUCH THING as a frequency variation in relation to another connected area.
This entire report is such a bold faced stream of BS and lies, I am blown away to think they would ever consider trying. This is downright brazen
I know many readers believe the end is near for this nation. Proposals like this prove it. Even worse is the attitude of AP. Did they not consult anyone who actually knew what this would do, other than the enemy? Are THEY the enemy?
They will do this if we do not speak up. If you want this nation to have a future, I strongly suggest you make it perfectly clear that the GRID IS NOT TO BE TAMPERED WITH.
UPDATE:
These comments are in response to people who e-mailed me telling me the grid was now running DC, which would, if true, make my main premise irrelevant.
My response follows
I know that on many of the big transmission lines they are indeed using DC on VERY LONG RUNS of 400 miles or more because it allows higher RMS throughput and minimizes inductive losses, but it is not always the case. None of the big lines in my area are that way, and AC distribution is still so predominant that playing with frequencies on a grid as great as ours is the equivalent of handing a ferarri over to a tinkering teenager. I will not budge on my major premise, that phase conflict issues will indeed force the grid to operate in isolated pockets if an experiment with different AC frequencies is allowed, and that anyone who is suggesting it should be allowed to run with frequency variations should be the subject of GREAT scrutiny and suspicion.
How much of the grid, exactly, uses DC/inverter arrangements? VERY LITTLE. And it is ALL on remotely situated lines of enormous length. You will find few of these types of lines if ANY east of the Rockies. These are mostly in the desert southwest. East of the rockies, where long runs are not needed, whether or not DC will save you money has to be calculated against cost of equipment and losses of power in that equipment. Rectifiers and inverters do not run with perfect efficiency, there are losses and if those losses add up to more than what the AC inductive losses over a stretch of line would be it makes no sense at all to use them. Furthermore, if an arc ever starts on a DC line, there HAS TO be a short power outage to extinguish it. AC lines self extinguish in one cycle automatically.
Despite a few people saying DC makes my suspicions irrelevant, upon checking for recent technology changes I found I am completely correct and I am not budging on my main premise - that there is no rational reason to tamper with the grid frequency.
Also:
Phasing is everything. Get more than 30 degrees before or behind the phase and you are toast. If you do not understand why frequency matters, stay off the subject. It's not a matter of ideal or not ideal, it's a matter of POOF!. You may think you are doing a service by going around telling people I am full of BS, but it is very common for electricians to not understand what functions frequency performs and it is beyond virtually all of them to understand that you cannot have two dominant frequencies from different sources on the same line without encountering severe problems.
Frequency matters a LOT MORE THAN VOLTAGE, INFINITELY MORE because excess voltage does not go on a continuously proceeding march forward. A high voltage on a line will stay where it is, but a different frequency will walk forward on a phase until it lands directly opposite. Things will trip out long before that happens. Any frequency deviation between two signal sources will put one source wave form negative to the other source positive very rapidly. A full phase misalignment will represent an RMS voltage difference between both sources that is TWICE the RMS voltage of each source if they are the same voltage to begin with, and they are 180 out from each other. Yes I know 3 phase is 120 degrees per phase but I was not all too excited about trying to explain three phase power in an article mostly read by people who do not deal with electricity.
I have seen countless electricians mistake harmonics for "frequency variation" and then run around saying the place runs on "70 HZ!". Harmonics can be pesky, but they are NOT the root frequency, and if your meter is telling you there is 70 hz on a 60 hz line, there is either a severe overspeed on your generator or you are picking up a harmonic. Suspect a harmonic. Meters will often do that, and it has nothing to do with root frequency. Not understanding this is very common among average electricians.
My reference was for single phase AC because I did not want to try to explain 3 phase power to average people. My report was not written for electricians, it needs to hit the masses to make a difference.
I am dead right about inverted phases and frequency creep, interconnected systems have to hit the EXACT SAME FREQUENCY DEAD ON, even being off a fraction of a percent will quickly be the equivalent of shorting opposite phases.
Leading the phase and lagging the phase DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A FREQUENCY DIFFERENCE. Lots of places might try pushing the phase to get more power out or correct a lagging power factor. That is not the same thing as producing a different frequency altogether. That is something I did not put in the report because it is far too complex for average people but I know there are plenty of electricians out there who actually think that pushing the phase requires you to run at a higher frequency; it does not. It changes the shape of the ouput wave form unless too many power facilities do it simultaneously, and then they all go up together, there is NEVER a "different" frequency on the grid in one location in relation to another. The entire premise of this report is that there can never be two different root frequencies present on the grid. It is not possible to have that happen, and if the East ever does run up to a different frequency it will require being disconnected from other parts of the grid which are running slower. On an interconnected grid that should not happen, it should all stay at the exact same frequency between interconnected regions. The AP report clearly states that they want DIFFERENT FREQUENCIES ON THE SAME GRID. THAT CANNOT HAPPEN UNLESS REGIONS ARE NOT CONNECTED.
I am sure there are a few who will comment about the fact that capacitors are used to correct a lagging power factor, but there are many ways to do it. Capacitors are ONE WAY to correct lagging power factors but when it comes to heavy duty correction, they are lacking compared to running a synchronous motor with an over excited field or a generator dedicated to pushing the lag forward. Linemen do not come across anything other than capacitors. There are other ways.

And even if short distribution lines were running isolated regions by inverter only, For what reason would we have to accept frequency inaccuracies amounting to 14 seconds a day? Cheap dollar store watches can hit that accuracy, so what plausible reason could be offered to support accepting it when any inverter used on a distribution line would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars? Can't put a $30 part in it to keep the frequency to within a half second a day? HOGWASH! They ALL have the ability to output very accurately. Nowadays we should be demanding a MORE ACCURATE GRID FREQUENCY, if it could be done; IT CANNOT.
Don't allow scammers to "fix" what is not broken!



<A href="http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/grid.html">

Gaillo
18th July 2011, 12:46 PM
osoab,
I am SO PISSED OFF after reading that... I need to go for a walk and cool down. Just plain pissed! :(

osoab
18th July 2011, 12:58 PM
osoab,
I am SO PISSED OFF after reading that... I need to go for a walk and cool down. Just plain pissed! :(

It's better to be pissed off than pissed on.


























Unless you are into that sort of thing. ;D

osoab
18th July 2011, 03:55 PM
osoab,
I am SO PISSED OFF after reading that... I need to go for a walk and cool down. Just plain pissed! :(


Ok, enough with the sarcasm. What has you so pissed off? I have never really dwelled much on the grid at large. Normally just 110 and 220. Some motors and stuff.

Other than shit would be screwed power wise, what makes this different that the everyday screwing we get?

Gaillo
18th July 2011, 05:04 PM
Ok, enough with the sarcasm. What has you so pissed off? I have never really dwelled much on the grid at large. Normally just 110 and 220. Some motors and stuff.

Other than shit would be screwed power wise, what makes this different that the everyday screwing we get?

The fact that it's so deliberate, being lied about, and has such horrendous consequences. Basically, the guy is saying that this could destroy not only the power grid as we know it, but the generating stations and nuclear power plants as well. I think of the millions of man-years that went into creating the technological marvel that is our power system, and how SCUMBAGS are going to destroy it for short-term greed and worldwide political ambitions. Disgusting! :(

Book
18th July 2011, 07:30 PM
http://www.impawards.com/tv/posters/dancing_with_the_stars.jpghttp://www.franksaldana.com/blog/uploaded_images/dancing-with-stars-5-photo-789711.jpg

They kill the power on a Monday night when this is on America will be in the streets in thirty seconds.

:D begging the President to surrender to the aliens

Mouse
18th July 2011, 09:49 PM
This is not a big deal. The guy writing the freakout article above is off his meds, although he points our many correct facts, his understanding is pretty much, wrong. There is constantly frequency variation over/under 60hz. The accumulation of which results in time control error. As long as they maintain the frequency on the grid such that they don't trip lines and blow up units, it is not and is rarely ever at exactly 60hz. I think you have to report an event if you are dragging more below 59.95hz (also your neighboring control area will bitch at you for sucking their juice in). TCE is to correct for where ACE has gone over/under 60hz and they have found that coordinated TCE events (in order to correct for time) have actually caused instability to increase closer to the "safety" limit than if they had just left it alone. Source NERC.

Programs: Time Error Correction Elimination http://www.nerc.com/images/single_clearpix.gif

UPDATE: This Field Trial has been postponed pending further discussion at the September meeting of the Operating Committee.
What is Time Error? (http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386|387) What is Time Error Correction? (http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386|388) Webinars (http://www.nerc.com/page.php?cid=6|386|391)
Time Error Correction Elimination Field Trial

NERC is investigating the possibility of eliminating Time Error Corrections. NERC, which is currently performing a field trial of the proposed Balancing Authority ACE Limits metric as a part of NERC Project 2007-18, has also been collecting data regarding Interconnection frequency performance, including the number of clock- minutes during which actual frequency dropped below the low Frequency Trigger Limit (FTL) of 59.95 Hertz. During the period of July 2005 through March 2010, approximately 44% of the minutes during which clock-minute actual frequency dropped below the low Frequency Trigger Limit occurred during Time Error Corrections when scheduled frequency was 59.98 Hertz (1,875 of the 4,234 total minutes observed below 59.95 Hertz). Upon further investigation, it was found that almost all of those minutes (1,819 of the 1,875 total) represented frequency deviations that would likely not have dropped frequency below 59.95 Hertz if the scheduled frequency had been 60 Hertz. In other words, it was estimated that approximately 97% were of such a magnitude that if the Time Error Correction had not been in effect, the exceedance of the low FTL would not have occurred.
http://www.nerc.com/fileUploads/Image/Programs/tec_eastern.gif

These Frequency Trigger Limits in and of themselves are only indicators of system behavior, but the nature of their relationship to Time Error Corrections calls into question the potential impact that Time Error Corrections can have on frequency behavior overall. While it is intuitively obvious that any frequency offset that moves target frequency away from the reference point to which all other frequency sensitive devices (such as relays) have been indexed will have a potential impact on those devices’ performance, the industry has by and large regarded Time Error Corrections as harmless and necessary as part of the service it provides to its customers. However, in light of this data, NERC’s stakeholders are now questioning whether or not the intentional movement closer to (or in some cases, further away from) the trigger settings of frequency-based protection devices as is evidenced during Time Error Correction events is appropriate.

Accordingly, NERC is planning a Field Trial during which the practice of doing Time Error Corrections will be suspended. What will this affect? We don't think it will have much affect at all, but just to be safe, we are reaching out to various industries to get their thoughts on this. Those industries include appliance manufacturers, software companies, chemical manufacturers, companies that make automation equipment, computer manufacturers, and many others.

Do you have any questions or concerns about Time Error Correction? E-mail us at tec@nerc.com (tec@nerc.com).

undgrd
19th July 2011, 05:29 AM
Please excuse my question if stupid...I know just about nothing about electricity.

Is it possible for them to test this in a closed loop system that would only impact devices/objects attached inside the loop? Would it cost too much to design this type of test? Would it not be representative if scaled down and taken outside the grid?

Seems silly to run a test like this using the one and only live electrical grid. It would be like someone using their daily driver to go racing on the weekends...could end badly.

Mouse
19th July 2011, 10:12 PM
I think that's why they are revisiting it. The creepy thing is that NERC is a corporation, and it is in charge of reliability standards and enforcement over the electric transmission system. It has become increasingly tied into DHS and other black ops in terms of "critical infrastructure" and could well be used against the states if they were to see fit. The FERC really should be in charge of this, but they are too retarded to deal with the technical aspects. NERC is flapping their wings about and has some actual power to enforce, fine and etc. but it is a regulator that lacks a .gov address. I never really thought about it before now.

keehah
26th July 2011, 12:25 PM
Mount Etna eruption closes airports and 'knocks clocks 15 minutes fast' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2013145/Mount-Etna-eruption-closes-airports-knocks-clocks-15-minutes-fast.html#ixzz1TF0MhorD)
By DAILY MAIL REPORTER Last updated at 8:42 AM on 11th July 201l

An eruption by Mount Etna [in June] on the Italian island of Sicily left a nearby airport closed and ... locals turning up early for work...

Bemused Sicilians, meanwhile, were quick to blame the volcano after thousands noticed that their clocks were running 15 minutes fast. The fast forward time keeping has affected a wide spectrum of digital clocks and watches - from computers through to alarm clocks.

It was spotted when large numbers of locals started turning up for work early, and a Facebook page was organised for those involved to compare notes.

Fontanarossa airport was reopened at 7am local time after seven sweeping machines worked through the night to clear the runway of ash. The cause of the island-wide clock confusion remains unknown.


http://www.euronews.net/2011/06/10/digital-clocks-go-crazy-in-sicilian-town/

The town of Catania lies at the heart of the mystery and two young locals have set up a facebook page calling for those affected to come forward. One of them, Francesco Nicosia, told French online magazine Rue89 “I realised something was wrong when I started getting to work earlier. After some investigation I noticed that I wasn’t the only one who was on time, which is quite rare here in Sicily.”

This isn’t the first time the island has experienced strange goings on linked to electronic devices: several years ago electronic equipment started spontaneously catching fire across the rural countryside, reports Rue89.

Among the most credible explanations is electrical disturbance caused by underwater cables that have been undergoing maintenance

http://www.forteantimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1106890&sid=6baa36aa1e89ff495c5b68602faf4685

16-06-201

Surge? - A convincing response to the damage but the researchers of the department of electrical engineering at the University of Catania. "Everything could be born - told a local TV Dilettoso Professor Emmanuel - the fact that there are now a network of power generators, such as photovoltaic systems, which are often not self-regulated and thus any small variations in frequency are not adequately compensated '. And there are also those who point out that a few days work is in the submarine cable that comes in Sicily. The case will therefore be sought in the rush to supply electricity? "I thought about it too - replica Francesco Nicosia - but I did check the electrical wiring in my house (230 volts at a frequency of 49.89 Hz) and everything seems smooth. And if so faults should cover all the appliances. "

THE BANK WORRIED - If at first the two friends and colleagues addressed this strange story lightly and almost fun now seem worried. "The other day, Francis said - even the grocery store under the house told me that his digital clock has suddenly made a run. But this is nothing. Arriving at the bank and use that tells me I have to wait a bit '. "Unfortunately - my explanation here all the machines have been put in ...." "You also have the clocks go forward?" I ask for a joke. He said, "but how does she know?". "In short, the alarm clocks crazy is spreading like wildfire and now also runs over the Net


Revealed yellow alarms 'accelerated'
the cause is the increased flow of energy
To repair a fault, the island was separated from the continental network, using its own, but the change has caused problems in the 'balance' of power


*
From the Corriere della Sera | The mystery of the clocks in Sicily: all along

CATANIA - You have unlocked the mystery of the clocks 'speed up' of eastern Sicily. Neither funny nor appropriate, let alone paranormal phenomenon: rather it would be the consequence of a temporary increase in the flow of electricity. Clock radios that go on for five minutes a day and a microwave oven with timer problems: these are some of the abnormalities seen in Sicily for about three weeks, exactly on time served to the company that manages the distribution of electricity to complete the maintenance ordinary sole undersea cable linking Sicily to Calabria.

For about twenty days the island was separated from the 'continental network "and was self-sufficient in the supply of electricity. But Sicily, energy, produces more than it consumes, and this has created some problems in the "balance" of power delivered to users has fluctuated between 50 and 50.13 Hertz (Hz), creating small "acceleration" to the timer household appliances. In levels strictly according to law, since the rule is a variation between 49 and 50 Hz, which is the number of oscillations performed by the electric current in a second alternate.

The phenomenon has already been used up by the conclusion of the routine maintenance of submarine cable to the one existing in fact "detach" the power grid from the European circuit in Sicily. So the island's network is powered by the hydroelectric system, which is more stable, but also from alternative sources, whose production is not constant. This can create very small changes in frequency, the "dilution" with the continental system makes minors. "The phenomenon is not new - the professor explains Rosario Lanzafame, professor of machinery and power systems at the University of Catania - but it has been noticed and has had more widespread because of the social network and private TV stations that have magnified the incident , giving rise to network in the "yellow watch" in Sicily, but is not mystery. It was a network problem isolation but has been resolved. It will happen again the next departure from the continental network, but it is nothing serious. "

Online Editor
June 9, 2011