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MNeagle
2nd July 2011, 07:17 PM
By Sarah Lorge Butler (http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-money/blog/family-finance/) for CBS MoneyWatch.com (http://moneywatch.bnet.com/)

Back in April I wrote about a person near and dear to me — yes, my husband — who needed two new crowns for $3,442. I published his experience in a post, Is Your Dentist Ripping You Off? (http://moneywatch.bnet.com/saving-money/blog/family-finance/is-your-dentist-ripping-you-off/4240/) Dentists howled in protest at the provocative headline, though most agreed with the content of the story.

Patients howled too, about the high cost of dental work, and the feeling that they’ve encountered dentists who don’t have their best interests at heart. Here’s a typical letter: “My wife saw a dentist who quoted her $750. Then halfway through the job, when she was numb and had a big hole in her mouth, he told her he misquoted the price and it was going to be $1,500. She could not exactly argue.” Another reader wrote of going to two different dentists and getting two completely different opinions about what his mouth needs and when it needs it. Who do you trust?

I heard from people who work in dental labs that charge the dentists $125 for a high-end crown, so why the tenfold markup? One dentist in Grand Rapids, Michigan, offered to do my husband’s work for him for $1,395, or 40% of what he was quoted by his guy. All we would have to do was get him from Pennsylvania to Grand Rapids. (We passed.) Another dentist criticized my “gummy smile.” Others wrote of the hours of pro bono work they do and how that’s never noticed.

Two dentists, Dr. M. in upstate New York and Dr. W. near Indianapolis, agreed to be interviewed. They spoke to me at length about why fees are what they are. Here’s what I learned about why dental work is so expensive.

Dental care is not a commodity. It’s not laundry detergent or breakfast cereal or wireless minutes. Dentistry is a professional service that’s both art and a science. Yes, there are excellent dentists and not-so-great dentists. Often, you get what you pay for. Yet even great dentists have bad days. “I consider myself an awesome dentist,” Dr. W. told me. “And I’ve had failures.”

Overhead costs are huge. Anywhere from 60% to 80% of what a patient pays goes toward the expense of running a modern dental practice. Dentists pay for rent or mortgage payments on their office space, payroll for hygienists, office managers and receptionists, health insurance, taxes, supplies, business insurance and technology — just to name a few. “A lot of people would be surprised to know how tight the profit margins are,” Dr. W. says. And many dentists are still paying student loans from dental school.

Labs differ in the quality of the products they produce. We all want our dentists to be using high-quality labs for things like crowns and dentures. Should we have to ask about the labs? No. We should trust our dentists to select a good one. “In my view, you always want to use a good lab,” Dr. M. said, “because if the crown breaks, I’m the one stuck redoing the thing for another hour and a half for free. It’s important to make sure I’m putting good stuff in people’s mouths, because the last thing anyone wants to deal with is a redo. It doesn’t make me look good, the patients get angry, insurance doesn’t cover it, and it’s a waste of time. You want to do a good job.” Dr. M. has invested in a $100,000 machine that lets him make the crowns himself and cement them in one visit. He says patients love it and it allows him to control the process and do a better job. His fee, however, is higher than many in the area.

Insurance isn’t really insurance. Dental insurance, the dentists told me, is nothing like health insurance or auto insurance. It’s a maintenance plan that will cover cleanings and x-rays, maybe half the cost of a crown. It will not protect you if you need a lot of work done. The maximum annual benefits, $1,000 to $1,500, haven’t changed in the 50 years since dental insurance became available. “It’s a minor cost assistance, and there’s a widening divide between patients’ expectations of their dental insurance coverage and the actual coverage that’s provided,” says Dr. W.

Dental insurance drives docs nuts and they wish they didn’t have to use it. “The number one most complicated aspect of running a dental office, bar none, is dealing with dental insurance. You wouldn’t believe how long it takes to get through to a rep, make sure the patient does have benefits, calculate a copay,” says Dr. M. And the largest insurance plans in the country discount most dentists’ fees by 10% to 20%. If you’re paying out of pocket, ask for a discount. (You might discover the dentist is giving you one already.)

Dentists wish patients would value their teeth more. Teeth are a crucial part of health and appearance. Untreated gum disease, for instance, is linked to heart disease. (Would you choose a cardiologist based on price?) “With time, you will come to realize that shopping price is a minor concern when it comes to your health,” says Dr. W. “Any minor cost differences amortized out over a lifetime will become insignificant. You will get the best results and have the most long-term satisfaction getting care from someone you trust.”

So if you’re convinced dentists are worth their fees, how do you find a good one? The dentists had some suggestions:


Ask if he or she uses specialists. Who does your root canals? If the person on the phone says, “We do everything here, that would scare me,” Dr. M. says. Especially orthodontia.
Ask your primary care physician which dentist she uses. Ask your lawyer. Ask your boss. In other words, ask professional people whom they trust with their mouths.
Ask a dental specialist, like an endodontist. One specialist wrote to tell me, “The best way to find a good dentist is to find a specialist who sees everyone’s patients on a referral basis. He or she will know who is good and who isn’t. Trust me, as a specialist, I know who is doing what, because I see their work every day.”
If a dentist doesn’t take insurance, because he or she doesn’t need to, that will be a pretty good dentist. Those pros can book you for longer, and they don’t have to work under the constraints of insurance companies. Be prepared to pay higher fees.
Look and look some more. Interview dentists, if they’ll let you. Take the view that your teeth are a lifetime investment.
http://shine.yahoo.com/event/financiallyfit/why-your-dentist-costs-so-much-2504460/

palani
3rd July 2011, 04:36 AM
Or you could go to Mexico and have crowns replaced for $130 each.

Root canals? Don't do them. They have a high probability of causing other health problems. The body does not like dead tissue left lying around.

Silver fillings? aka 50% Mercury fillings. The term "quack" became attached to dentists who proposed using Mercury fillings.


quack (n.)
"medical charlatan," 1630s, short for quacksalver (1570s), from Du. kwaksalver

quacksalver? quicksilver?

Dogman
3rd July 2011, 06:16 AM
Or you could go to Mexico and have crowns replaced for $130 each.

Root canals? Don't do them. They have a high probability of causing other health problems. The body does not like dead tissue left lying around.

Silver fillings? aka 50% Mercury fillings. The term "quack" became attached to dentists who proposed using Mercury fillings.



quacksalver? quicksilver?

Confused? That is why you have a root canal done, to remove the dead nerve and drain the puss.

For a tooth abscess, you do want to have the root canal done, for several reasons.

One, to relieve the pain and stop the infection.

Two, the infection can kill not only bone in the jaw, or could kill you. (best reason to have it done)

On silver fillings, do not know how old you are, but back in the day that was about all you could afford to have done for most of us.And even then there were very few choices. It was not like today and the use of very advanced materials and techniques , that did not exist back then.

And you calling the dam near 100% of dentists "quacks" that used the procedure is truly warped and misguiding.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mercury.html

The "Mercury Toxicity" Scam:
How Anti-Amalgamists Swindle People

Stephen Barrett, M.D.

More than half a century ago, Orson Welles panicked his radio audience by reporting that Martians had invaded New Jersey. On December 23, 1990, CBS-TV's "60 Minutes" achieved a similar effect by announcing that toxins have invaded the American mouth. There was, however, a big difference. Welles' broadcast was intended to be entertaining. The "60 Minutes" broadcast, narrated by veteran reporter Morley Safer, was intended to alarm—to persuade its audience that the mercury in dental fillings is a poison. It was the most irresponsible report on a health topic ever broadcast on network television. Mercury is a component of the amalgam used for "silver" fillings. The other major ingredients are silver, tin, copper, and zinc. When mixed, these elements bond to form a strong, stable substance. The difference between bound and unbound chemicals can be illustrated by a simple analogy. Elemental hydrogen is an explosive gas. Elemental oxygen is a gas that supports combustion. When combined, however, they form water, which has neither of these effects. Amalgam's ingredients are tightly bonded to each other. Although the types of chemical bonds in water and amalgam differ, saying that amalgam will poison you is just as wrong as saying that drinking water will make you explode and burst into flames.

Snip/ Much more at link.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/mercury.html

Here is a web search results for more reading, both pro/con

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=979&bih=460&q=silver+mercury+fillings&aq=0&aqi=g1g-v2g-b5&aql=&oq=silver+fillings+mercury

;D

LastResort
3rd July 2011, 02:13 PM
I wished I had known the dangers of mecury amalgam fillings before getting some put in my mouth. I would love to have mine taken out but its big bucks that I don't have.

I'm pretty sure in Sweden they've banned the use of amalgam fillings, and the governement will actually pay 50% of the cost to have them removed.

Neuro
3rd July 2011, 04:26 PM
Dogman, Stephen Barret is the payed henchman of AMA, to attack anything that is not organized medicine...

Certainly one can argue that an amalgam filling won't leach out a tremendous amount of mercury, however it will lrach it out in the trigeminal nerve, which will affect several very important nerve centers in the brainstem close to the trigeminal nucleus, among those the vagus nucleus, which is important for regulation of all vital body organs in the upper body down to the pelvis.

Prior to the root canal the nerve is alive, that is the very reason you do a root canal, to kill the root so you don't have pain any longer. If you kill the nerve the area that nerve serves will not have innervation, and over time that will allow opportunistic bacteria to move in that can function in a low oxygen environment, with a chronic low grade infection as a result, which eventually leads to gum disease, and maybe 20-30 years down the line falling out of several teeths. A long term healthier option in the situation would be to pull out the tooth, and from then on take better care of your remaining teeth...

willie pete
3rd July 2011, 11:08 PM
Dogman, Stephen Barret is the payed henchman of AMA, to attack anything that is not organized medicine...
A long term healthier option in the situation would be to pull out the tooth, and from then on take better care of your remaining teeth...

I wouldn't have a RC done either, although I've been told lately that the packing in a RC is more of a rubberized cement type solution now days, a far improvement over just a few years, still wouldn't have have one done, RC can and do go bad, IF it does, everything was a waste, I'd go for an extraction then implant with a crown, maybe a little more expensive on the front end but less likely for complications and it's permanent

gunDriller
4th July 2011, 07:17 AM
best dentist i've had is at a dental school. i just happened to get lucky, then when i got transferred to another dentist who was clueless, i asked to be transferred back to the good student dentist.

my teeth were in bad shape when i started - 8 or 9 cavities & one crown replacement. the whole thing was fascinating. not much to do while i was sitting there except listen & learn.

in one case, the on-duty instructor insisted on treating one of my teeth as a crown prep. there was a huge flaw in his logic - having just gone through a crown replacement, i knew that that created more surfaces for problems.

i went back to student dentist #1, and asked him to do the composite build-up for the crown prep - and then to stop right there. i never did the crown.

they warned me, "but the tooth is weaker" - and clueless student dentist #2 lost a chance to practice doing crowns ... on my teeth.


another good dentist i've had is a prof. dentist, now near retirement, in San Diego, recommended by my Mom. surprisingly affordable, considering his office is in La Jolla.

starting with that appointment when i found out i had 8 cavities (October 28, 2008), i went cold turkey on the soda and changed my diet immediately. talk about motivation !

i learned the tooth numbering system ...upper right rear wisdom tooth is tooth #1, then numbered sequentially so that upper left rear wisdom tooth is tooth #16, lower left rear wisdom tooth is tooth #17 ... etc. ... 32 total.

for example, your "buck teeth" would be #8 & #9.

Lingual = side of tooth near tongue
Distal = side of tooth towards back of mouth or away from center of mouth, depending on tooth orientation.
Mesial = side of tooth towards front of mouth or away from center of mouth, depending on tooth orientation.
Buccal = side of tooth on outside near cheek/ lips.

knowing these terms, you can look at your chart and ask questions after an exam.

if they have "#12 B", that probably means that you have decay on 1 surface of the upper left pre-molar. if you go in next time and the chart reads, "#12 MB", that means they have found decay on 2 surfaces. then it is reasonable to ask - is the decay migrating ? (which means you might need to change your diet & dental care habits) OR - did you miss this the last exam ?


some dentists don't like patients asking all these questions. i think it's important to find a dentist who will work with you to deal with your own teeth one surface at a time.

http://www.secretofthieves.com/images/toothchart-open.jpg

palani
4th July 2011, 07:27 AM
Heart disease is said to start in the mouth and gums. Homeopaths believe each tooth is tied to a particular organ in the body. Metal fillings in general are frowned upon as are metal crowns. The reason is the brain has electrical activity and metal in the vicinity will have a small but not negligible effect upon electrical fields. Root canals remove living tissue and leave a breeding ground for viruses and infections. Better to remove the tooth entirely than take the risk of continuous infections.

Chelation (with EDTA) is not possible as long as there are mercury fillings in the mouth. Any metals successfully removed from the body will be quickly replaced with mercury from these fillings.

willie pete
4th July 2011, 12:00 PM
Heart disease is said to start in the mouth and gums.

never heard that one....I know if you have a beta-hemolytic strep colony going in your mouth or throat, it's suggested you do not have ANY invasive dental procedures, reason being a disruption could cause a cardiac migration resulting usually in pericarditis...something that IS very serious

palani
4th July 2011, 12:53 PM
never heard that one....I know if you have a beta-hemolytic strep colony going in your mouth or throat, it's suggested you do not have ANY invasive dental procedures, reason being a disruption could cause a cardiac migration resulting usually in pericarditis...something that IS very serious


http://www.perio.org/consumer/mbc.heart.htm

Researchers have found that people with periodontal disease are almost twice as likely to suffer from coronary artery disease as those without periodontal disease.

cpy911
4th July 2011, 02:56 PM
I have both amalgam and composite fillings. The composite filling materials have mostly broken down over the years leading to more severe decay. I am sitting here with a recent crown build up now, due to advanced decay under crappy composite fillings ALMOST leading to a root canal. My amalgam fillings have lasted years and years and the silver reduces the bacteria and decay activity around the filling margin as told to me by my dentist. I try to keep the amalgam fillings to a minimum though due to the mercury, but they sure work for their intended purpose. There are probably billions of amalgam fillings in the world right now...for better or worse.

Advanced periodontal disease allows some nasty bad strep bacteria into the bloodstream and will only stress your system more. If you have a lot of plaque build up in the your arteries, this bacteria in your mouth can wreak havoc in your blood stream and heart and release that plaque in your system as your immune system fights it.

My dentist is doing his craft because he just loves it. He is not in it for the money as he lives two doors down from me and drives an old Toyota truck and could easily buy a much nicer pad. He had to replace many broken down fillings in my mouth done by $HITTY dentists I have had over the years. Not once did he ever comment on the poor work done, he has a good sense of tact. Everything he has done over 5 years of seeing him has held up nicely. I would say I have had 3 bad dentists to every 1 good, and believe this is the ratio in the real world too.

THere are a lot of really crappy money loving dentists out there and there are some that love the profession....good luck weeding them out...

BTW. I have fairly poor teeth due to genetics. I use sonicare 2x day, use a waterpik 2X day, use a tooth pick for gumline, use floss 1X day, don't eat sugary foods and still have decay and caries. My parents' had bad teeth, both of them with crowns on every tooth. My wife has rock solid teeth and my children seem to have inherited this as well. Sucks to be a tooth in my mouth!

cheers

willie pete
4th July 2011, 10:03 PM
http://www.perio.org/consumer/mbc.heart.htm

Researchers have found that people with periodontal disease are almost twice as likely to suffer from coronary artery disease as those without periodontal disease.

you made the comment that Heart disease is said start in your mouth....your link supports exactly what I said, everything else is "theory" , but it'd make sense...if an individual doesn't take care of their body, odds are they aren't going to put too much emphasis on their oral health care, it's more of a "cause & effect" versus a Direct correlation...that's my opinion anyway....

willie pete
4th July 2011, 10:12 PM
I have both amalgam and composite fillings. The composite filling materials have mostly broken down over the years leading to more severe decay. I am sitting here with a recent crown build up now, due to advanced decay under crappy composite fillings ALMOST leading to a root canal. My amalgam fillings have lasted years and years and the silver reduces the bacteria and decay activity around the filling margin as told to me by my dentist. I try to keep the amalgam fillings to a minimum though due to the mercury, but they sure work for their intended purpose. There are probably billions of amalgam fillings in the world right now...for better or worse.

Advanced periodontal disease allows some nasty bad strep bacteria into the bloodstream and will only stress your system more. If you have a lot of plaque build up in the your arteries, this bacteria in your mouth can wreak havoc in your blood stream and heart and release that plaque in your system as your immune system fights it.

My dentist is doing his craft because he just loves it. He is not in it for the money as he lives two doors down from me and drives an old Toyota truck and could easily buy a much nicer pad. He had to replace many broken down fillings in my mouth done by $HITTY dentists I have had over the years. Not once did he ever comment on the poor work done, he has a good sense of tact. Everything he has done over 5 years of seeing him has held up nicely. I would say I have had 3 bad dentists to every 1 good, and believe this is the ratio in the real world too.

THere are a lot of really crappy money loving dentists out there and there are some that love the profession....good luck weeding them out...

BTW. I have fairly poor teeth due to genetics. I use sonicare 2x day, use a waterpik 2X day, use a tooth pick for gumline, use floss 1X day, don't eat sugary foods and still have decay and caries. My parents' had bad teeth, both of them with crowns on every tooth. My wife has rock solid teeth and my children seem to have inherited this as well. Sucks to be a tooth in my mouth!

cheers


have you ever had a periodontal consult? I beleive genetics do play an important role in practically EVERYTHING....but I don't think your teeth would decay exclusively from genetics...keep up the maintenance .....and I HOPE you don't have B-Strep in your blood ( I don't think you would or you'd be Really Sick and on IV AB therapy around the clock for a while)