....8-year-old Brooklyn Jewish boy is killed and dismembered.

[Ponce]

SO WHATTTTTTTTTT
=========================================

NEW YORK (AP) — An 8-year-old Brooklyn boy who got lost while walking home alone from day camp in his Orthodox Jewish neighborhood was killed and dismembered by a stranger he had asked for directions, and his remains were found stuffed in a trash bin and the man's refrigerator, police said Wednesday.

The gruesome killing of Leiby Kletzky shocked the tight-knit Hasidic community in Borough Park, in part because it is one of the safest sections of the city and because the man under arrest is himself an Orthodox Jew.

A day-and-a-half search for the Hasidic boy ended with the discovery of his severed feet inside a bloody freezer at the home of a man who had been spotted with the child on a surveillance video, a law enforcement official told The Associated Press. The rest of the remains were in the trash in another neighborhood.

"It is every parent's worst nightmare," Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly.

The 35-year-old suspect, Levi Aron, implicated himself in the killing, Kelly said.

Police said there was no evidence the boy was sexually assaulted, but they would not otherwise shed any light on a motive except to say Aron told them he "panicked" when he saw photos of the missing boy on fliers that were distributed in the neighborhood. Police were looking into whether Aron had a history of mental illness.

Aron was arrested on a charge of second-degree murder. It was not clear whether he had an attorney. The medical examiner's office said it was still investigating how the boy was killed.

The Hasidim are ultra-Orthodox Jews who live in somewhat insular neighborhoods. The streets are policed by a group of volunteers known as the Shomrim patrol. Many of the mothers who gathered outside the Kletzky family home Wednesday said the streets are normally safe enough for a child to walk home alone.

Adel Erps, like other neighbors, expressed shock the suspect was Jewish. "He's a sick person obviously, but it hurts so much more," she said.

Aron's family was Orthodox but not Hasidic, and he lives about a dozen blocks away from the Kletzky family. When detectives arrived at his attic apartment around 2:40 a.m., they asked him where the boy was, and he nodded toward the kitchen, Kelly said.

Detectives saw blood on the freezer door and opened it to discover the feet inside, wrapped in plastic bags, according to the law enforcement official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the investigation is still going on. A cutting board and three bloody carving knives were in the refrigerator, and a plastic garbage bag with bloody towels was found nearby.

Aron told police where to find the rest of the body; it was in pieces, wrapped in plastic bags, inside a red suitcase that had been tossed into a trash bin in another Brooklyn neighborhood, Kelly said.

Police and volunteers had been looking since late Monday afternoon for Leiby, who disappeared while on his way to meet his mother on a street corner seven blocks from his day camp. This was the first time he was allowed to walk the route alone; his parents had taken him on a practice run on Friday.

The break in the case came when investigators watched a grainy video that showed the boy, wearing his backpack, getting into a car with a man outside a dentist's office. Police said the boy had evidently missed a turn and gotten lost.

Detectives tracked the dentist down at his home in New Jersey, and he remembered someone coming to pay a bill. Police identified Aron using records from the office, and 40 minutes later he was arrested.

Police said Aron, who is divorced, lives alone in the attic, in a building shared with his father and uncle. When they arrived, the door was ajar. It's not clear how long the boy had been dead, Kelly said.

Kelly said it was "totally random" that Aron grabbed the boy, and aside from a summons for urinating in public, he had no criminal record. A neighbor told authorities her son had said Aron had once tried to lure him into his car, but nothing happened and she didn't think much of it until the news of the killing, police said.

He lived most of his life in New York and worked as a clerk at a hardware supply store around the corner from his home, authorities said. Co-workers said Aron was at work on Tuesday.

"He seemed a little troubled," said employee Chamin Kramer, who added Aron usually came and went quietly.

Aron moved briefly to Memphis, Tenn., for his now-ex-wife after meeting her on a Jewish dating website, said the woman, Deborah Aron, who still lives in the area. She said he never showed signs of violence toward her two children from a previous relationship.

"It's utter disbelief," she said from the toy-littered backyard of her home in the Memphis suburb of Germantown. "This ain't the Levi I know."

Deborah Aron said the couple was married for exactly a year and divorced in 2007. She described Levi Aron as a shy person — until he got to know someone — and said he enjoyed music, karaoke and "American Idol." She said he attended Orthodox Jewish services in Memphis.

He was "more of a mother's boy than a father's boy," who lived at home until he met her, she said.

She said she filed an order of protection against him at the time of their divorce on the recommendation of her new boyfriend. "At the time he was so hysterical about getting a divorce. He didn't want a divorce," she said of Levi.

She said Levi injured his head when he was hit by a car while riding his bike at the age of 9 and suffered problems stemming from that accident.

She said the crime Levi is accused of is "totally out of character." However, she also said she would not help him find a lawyer or help him in any way.

Leiby was last seen wearing dark pants and a short-sleeved shirt and yarmulke with the traditional long locks of hair by his ears worn by Hasidic men.

Hasidic Jews abide by strict religious rules that require men to wear plain, dark clothing that includes a long coat and a fedora-type hat. Men often have long beards. Most of the 165,000 members in the New York City the area live in Brooklyn and belong to three sects. Hasidism traces its roots to 18th-century Eastern Europe.

"This is a no-crime area," said state Assemblyman Dov Hikind, whose district includes the neighborhood. He said the boy was the only son of the Kletzky family. The parents have four daughters, and the husband works as a driver for a private car service.

"Everybody is absolutely horrified," he said. "Everyone is in total shock, beyond belief, beyond comprehension ... to suddenly disappear and then the details ... and the fact someone in the extended community ... it's awful."

The medical examiner's office released the body so that the boy could be buried promptly Wednesday evening according to Jewish custom.

http://news.yahoo.com/8-old-brooklyn-boy-killed-dismembered-191831616.html

[Rebel Yarr]

dig hole and lie down in it - thanks.

[Awoke]

That is a terrible shame. I hope somehow it was painless. God have mercy.

[Ponce]

Awoke? if I could take a "thank you" AWAY FROM YOU FOR SAYING THAT I would........think of how many Palestinian kids those bastards have killed.

[ximmy]

such a shame...

[Joe King]

Awoke? if I could take a "thank you" AWAY FROM YOU FOR SAYING THAT I would........think of how many Palestinian kids those bastards have killed.Sorry, but two wrongs do not make a Right.

Sometimes it's very hard to do, but try to be a lil' bigger than your enemy Ponce. ie don't sink to their level.

[Ponce]

Sorry Joe but I fell nothing for those people........not even hate, that would mean that I had some kind of feelings for them, to me they are just a problem for which a final solution must be found......is either them or us.

[Serpo]

Wrong turn in NY.........thats what the movie would be called

[Awoke]

Ponce, that 8 year old boy never killed any Palistinians.

He was just an innocent little boy who has no idea about the global injustices being carried out by the babylonian talmudists.

God Bless his soul.

[gunDriller]

Ponce, that 8 year old boy never killed any Palistinians.

He was just an innocent little boy who has no idea about the global injustices being carried out by the babylonian talmudists.

true.



Sorry, but two wrongs do not make a Right.

Sometimes it's very hard to do, but try to be a lil' bigger than your enemy Ponce. ie don't sink to their level.

not feeling a compassionate response when an innocent Jewish civilian is killed is very different from the madness of the Talmud-worshippers.

"compassion fatigue" - it's hard to feel sympathy for an innocent member of a tribe as twisted as the Joos.

after watching them kill countless other innocents, and perpetrate countless additional sicknesses - what is the purpose of counseling oneself to feel compassion for an innocent 8 year old ?

[Twisted Titan]

The Hasidim are ultra-Orthodox Jews who live in somewhat insular neighborhoods. The streets are policed by a group of volunteers known as the Shomrim patrol


now you have a "shorim patrol" in your community keeping every other ethic group out and see what the zionist media says about you

[Twisted Titan]

oh yeah none of this surprises me

the zionist is obessed with pedophlia,blood rituals and sexual acts of depravity

[Ash_Williams]

Awoke? if I could take a "thank you" AWAY FROM YOU FOR SAYING THAT I would........think of how many Palestinian kids those bastards have killed.

The kid didn't kill anyone.
And there's no shortage of people in the world who would be thrilled to hear of an 8 year old American christian child being killed, because of all the kids America has killed in their home countries.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

and said he enjoyed music, karaoke and "American Idol."

That's it! American Idol is creating killers!!

BAN THAT SHOW.

[mrnhtbr2232]

I have to agree with compassion on this one Jew or not. What happened to that kid was terrible. These times make it almost impossible to prevail as a decent human being. Extending thoughts to true victims, regardless of race or political condition, is a noble move and I applaud those of you that recognize that. It only makes you stronger and perhaps offers insight into the overall condition of humanity. The elites and their games are one level, but I'm just beginning to understand that our souls belong to us while on earth and we are responsible for our own thoughts and deeds. Tomorrow I may well have a different opinion - who knows, that's part of the progression.

But at least I'm trying and it is a sincere state of mind, something many people don't realize the value of including myself until I confront it. Here I am a middle aged geezer and I'm just starting to understand these things. I doubt the switchover is a moment in time or absolute - within my self-examination there still remains jews, niggers and fags and others I consider a drag on the health of society. I have a long way to go, but I'm trying. This kid is only a molecule of consideration, but I recognize his fate as unjustified. At least he's beyond corruption now - something I doubt I'll clear for some time if ever.

[Ponce]

Awoke? and how many Zionist "Jews" have all those, now dead, Palestinian kids killed?

[po boy]

I would guess none and I don't think anyone with a heart cheers those deaths either.

Cheering a young ones death for being on the wrong team? Really?

[Awoke]

Are you fucking deaf, Ponce?

I am talking about tiny little 8 year old boy that was murdered and dismembered.

Don't let the hate in your heart take rule over your morality. You know this is a terrible crime in your heart, and if you don't there is something seriously wrong with you.

[BillBoard]

I have an 8 year old boy at home, I would not like to have my child slaughtered. My compassion as a human being and father goes out to the family. However much I despise their Usurious ways.

[Ponce]

Awoke, I can only hope that not all the body parts were found and that way straight to hell he would go, according to their belief.

Because of the way that you think about "those" people is why they are in power, either you are againt "them" or you are not...........learn to think as they do.

[General of Darkness]

Someone educate me, what roll do the Hasidic jews play in zionism. From what I've seen they seem to be against zionism, or am I missing something?

[Awoke]

Awoke, I can only hope that not all the body parts were found and that way straight to hell he would go, according to their belief.

Because of the way that you think about "those" people is why they are in power, either you are againt "them" or you are not...........learn to think as they do.

You are making yourself look like an immoral retard.

I am not thinking about "those people". I am thinking about "That Child".

I will not engage in this discussion with you any longer.

If you think it is OK that an 8 year old Child was murdered and dismembered, we have nothing to talk about. Nothing at all.

[BillBoard]

Awoke, I can only hope that not all the body parts were found and that way straight to hell he would go, according to their belief.

Because of the way that you think about "those" people is why they are in power, either you are againt "them" or you are not...........learn to think as they do.

I don't have to lose my humanity for them to lose power, all it takes is for me to know their power comes from tricking people into Usury.

The only reason the Jews are in power is because they have fooled their victims into letting them be in power.

[ximmy]

...Aldo has killed an ape child...

[sirgonzo420]

Someone educate me, what roll do the Hasidic jews play in zionism. From what I've seen they seem to be against zionism, or am I missing something?

Depends.

They are ULTRA-othodox, which means they should be AGAINST the state of israel, because israel isn't supposed to exist as a state until their messiah comes back.

Also, they are jewish supremacists... so sometimes they wholly support the state of israel, just because it is a place for "their kind". They would rather israel be torah-based, but can't do that without waiting for a messiah, so they endorse the political state of israel for now.

[Ponce]

I would like to say "I am sorry" but I can't.......they themselves created me so that I have become what they are.

[sirgonzo420]

You are making yourself look like an immoral retard.

I am not thinking about "those people". I am thinking about "That Child".

I will not engage in this discussion with you any longer.

If you think it is OK that an 8 year old Child was murdered and dismembered, we have nothing to talk about. Nothing at all.

According to christianity, isn't that boy damned to hell?

If you bring up some "age of accountability" retort - what if he was 14? 16? 21?

Still damned to hell.

Isn't it odd that men are often times more compassionate than the God of the Bible?

[General of Darkness]

I would like to say "I am sorry" but I can't.......they themselves created me so that I have become what they are.

I'm in the same boat as Ponce on this. The amount of suffering the jews have caused to MY race makes me wish they were all dismembered, but it is an 8 year old boy, regardless if he's jewish, I do feel sad, I guess I haven't lost all my humanity.

[Awoke]

Pups that are born to wild dogs will learn their behaviour from their parents.
This young boy was not an active luciferian talmudist. He was a little child, still uncorrupted by the deciever.

Now he will never be given a chance to become worse than Be Gurion or better than Brother Nathanael Kapner.

I pity anyone who thinks this is OK "because he's a jew". Anyone who holds that thought is as bad worse than them.



For fuck's sake, most people on this forum are runnign around saying "95% of the jews today are not jews, they are Khazars", and then on the other hand you say "Yay, a jew child was murdered at an age just past being a toddler!"

Fucking sickening.

[midnight rambler]

Fostering hate will ultimately lead one to Hell. Repent now before it's too late.

[General of Darkness]

Fostering hate will ultimately lead one to Hell. Repent now before it's too late.

I know this is off the topic, but who fosters the most hate? I can with all certainty say the jews do. They push hate so hard that they get whites to hate themselves for just being white. Then they push blacks to hate whites, and on and on and on.

[ximmy]

I know this is off the topic, but who fosters the most hate? I can with all certainty say the jews do. They push hate so hard that they get whites to hate themselves for just being white. Then they push blacks to hate whites, and on and on and on.

I think christians hold the first spot of "fostering hate" toward others, but I suppose it could be the jew...

[Awoke]

According to christianity, isn't that boy damned to hell?

If you bring up some "age of accountability" retort - what if he was 14? 16? 21?

Still damned to hell.

Isn't it odd that men are often times more compassionate than the God of the Bible?

I thought you are an apostate ex-minster, aren't you?

Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven "Belongs to such as these" in reference to Children.



Luke 18:16 (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=18&l=16&f=s#x) found phrase
But Jesus, calling them together, said: Suffer children to come to me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.





Matthew 19:14 (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=19&l=14&f=s#x) found 2
But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such.





Mark 10:14 (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=10&l=14&f=s#x) found 2
Whom when Jesus saw, he was much displeased, and saith to them: Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for of such is the kingdom of God.





[35] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=35#x) And taking a child, he set him in the midst of them. Whom when he had embraced, he saith to them:
[36] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=36#x) Whosoever shall receive one such child as this in my name, receiveth me. And whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.
[37] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=37#x) John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us, and we forbade him.
[38] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=38#x) But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me.
[39] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=39#x) For he that is not against you, is for you.
[40] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=40#x) For whosoever shall give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to Christ: amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.
[41] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=41#x) And whosoever shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me; it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
[42] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=42#x) And if thy hand scandalize thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life, maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into unquenchable fire:
[43] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=43#x) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.
[44] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=44#x) And if thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter lame into life everlasting, than having two feet, to be cast into the hell of unquenchable fire:
[45] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=9&l=45#x) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not extinguished.

[Awoke]

That's bullshit and you know it, Ximmy.

[Dogman]

That's bullshit and you know it, Ximmy. In a way she maybe right, more people have been killed or maimed in the name of Christianity, than any other religion---Ever!

And if that is not hate, I do not know what is.

[ximmy]

that's bullshit and you know it, ximmy.

...lol... :d

[Awoke]

In a way she maybe right, more people have been killed or maimed in the name of Christianity, than any other religion---Ever!

And if that is not hate, I do not know what is.


If you want to get into the bloody history of Christianity, you better do some homework.

The Church has been infiltrated by pagan occultists since the time that the 12 apostles were still on this planet in the flesh.




[18] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=69&ch=2&l=18#x) Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that Antichrist cometh, even now there are become many Antichrists: whereby we know that it is the last hour.
[19] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=69&ch=2&l=19#x) They went out from us, but they were not of us. For if they had been of us, they would no doubt have remained with us; but that they may be manifest, that they are not all of us.



The infiltrating servants of the deciever were active right away.

Much like when the satanists wear the disguise of Jewry, they have also cloaked themselves in the disguise of Christianity throughout history as well.


EDIT to add that it is arguable that atheism, which is a religion of naturalism and "reason", has killed more than any other religion.

[Dogman]

If you want to get into the bloody history of Christianity, you better do some homework.

The Church has been infiltrated by pagan occultists since the time that the 12 apostles were still on this planet in the flesh.



The infiltrating servants of the deciever were active right away.

Much like when the satanists wear the disguise of Jewry, they have also cloaked themselves in the disguise of Christianity throughout history as well.

I have done my homework, What I said was in the Name of..... Not if they were or not.

[Ponce]

In a way she maybe right, more people have been killed or maimed in the name of Christianity, than any other religion---Ever!

And if that is not hate, I do not know what is.

You are right on that, but is not because of "hate".........but religion.

[Awoke]

I have done my homework, What I said was in the Name of..... Not if they were or not.

Oh I see. Semantics. So what you mean is the same as how "Hitler killed jews for the benefit of the Aryan race" which he was not a member of?

[chad]

that we even have to debate the merits of dismembering an 8 year old is disconcerting.

[Ponce]

No Chad, what he is raising hell with is what I said and not what happened with that brat.

[Dogman]

Oh I see. Semantics. So what you mean is the same as how "Hitler killed jews for the benefit of the Aryan race" which he was not a member of?

That is a close enough answer, yes. Religion is a subject I leave to others to debate and discuss. I just look at history and draw my own conclusions, but remain open to other beliefs and viewpoints.

[sirgonzo420]

I thought you are an apostate ex-minster, aren't you?

Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven "Belongs to such as these" in reference to Children.

I'm still an ordained minister, and I wouldn't consider myself apostate per se, but I also cannot truly consider myself christian (actually, not many people could truly consider themselves christian anyway).

And the meaning of "suffer" in those passages is more akin to "allow" than the sort of "suffering" involving pain.


from http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=suffer&searchmode=none
Suffer:
...
Meaning "to tolerate, allow" something to occur or continue is recorded from mid-13c

Mark 9:41 refers to a child who believes in Christ. Presumably, the little jewish boy did not, at least not in the fashion that Christ intended.

Regardless, we may feel compassion and empathy for our fellow man (including jews), but the God character in the Bible is not so forgiving.

If you are beyond the "age of accountability" and are not "by grace, through faith, saved by the blood of the Lamb" then you'll face an eternity of fire and brimstone in the depths of Hell according to most christians' interpretation of the Bible.

[General of Darkness]

In a way she maybe right, more people have been killed or maimed in the name of Christianity, than any other religion---Ever!

And if that is not hate, I do not know what is.

Was Stalin Christian, Pol Pot, the fricken U.S. guberment? NO, THEY WERE STARTED BY JEWS.

[sirgonzo420]

Was Stalin Christian, Pol Pot, the fricken U.S. guberment? NO, THEY WERE STARTED BY JEWS.

The christians were started by jews too.

[Dogman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WN8e--Ooa8


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jd8MuAfdpg

[General of Darkness]

The christians were started by jews too.

Exactly and that's why ORGANIZED religions or should I say beliefs are such a circle jerk. Like when jews say that they are GoD's chosen, I didn't chose them, those people suck, or when we you're a martyr for Allah you get 72 virgins. People actually believe this crap.

I "believe" that people should be spiritual, NOT religious because religion is a system, a system of control. If you do A you'll receive B. And when people act on the principles of religion they actually loose their soul, their being, who they are. The person should act based on who they are, and what is morally right and wrong, and then you open up another discussion, what is morally right and wrong. Based on your species, or sub-species, I "believe" that this is encoded into our DNA. We all know what is right and what is wrong. The difference between a human being and a cunt is how your chose to act towards your DNA or act against it.

[Awoke]

I'm still an ordained minister, and I wouldn't consider myself apostate per se, but I also cannot truly consider myself christian (actually, not many people could truly consider themselves christian anyway).

And the meaning of "suffer" in those passages is more akin to "allow" than the sort of "suffering" involving pain.


I am fully aware of the context that Christ used the word "Suffer".
Jesus meant let the Children come to Him, and do not block them access.





Mark 9:41 refers to a child who believes in Christ. Presumably, the little jewish boy did not, at least not in the fashion that Christ intended.

Regardless, we may feel compassion and empathy for our fellow man (including jews), but the God character in the Bible is not so forgiving.

If you are beyond the "age of accountability" and are not "by grace, through faith, saved by the blood of the Lamb" then you'll face an eternity of fire and brimstone in the depths of Hell according to most christians' interpretation of the Bible.

Please show me the Scriptures that outline this "Age of Accountability".





At this point I will summarize the derailment of this thread.

1) Ponce celebrates the murder of an innocent child
2) I get disgusted and voice it
3) Morphs into the usual attack on Christ and Christianity



* Thinking.... *

Yup. Standard protocol.

[Awoke]

The christians were started by jews too.

No, the "Christians" were started by GOD who manifested in the flesh as JESUS CHRIST, who was the seed of the HOLY SPIRIT and born to MARY.

It is arguable that Christ was or was not jewish. I don't argue or research it, because He is God.

Wow Gonzo. I suppose nothing should surprise me at this point...

[Joe King]

I would like to say "I am sorry" but I can't.......they themselves created me so that I have become what they are.
So in other words, you're saying they have power over you?

[Ponce]

What they do IS what has the power over me........if I slap you I expect you to punch me out.........thats what they are doing to Americans and all that you can say is "thank you".

[gunDriller]

No, the "Christians" were started by GOD who manifested in the flesh as JESUS CHRIST, who was the seed of the HOLY SPIRIT and born to MARY.

It is arguable that Christ was or was not jewish. I don't argue or research it, because He is God.

Wow Gonzo. I suppose nothing should surprise me at this point...

we don't really know if Mary was inseminated by God, whom I think was probably represented by a group of angels ... or if the baby Jesus was an implanted embryo.

none of us was there, and about as close as we will get to a clear explanation is Luke 1:26/38 -
Luke 1:26-38

"In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored !! The Lord is with you."

Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, his kingdom will never end." "How will this be, "Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin ??" The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God."

"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her."


in short, i think Mary had a contact experience. the beings that she met were probably human in appearance, so as not to frighten her.

in the process, she ended up pregnant, then gave birth on the day that is commemorated as Christmas.


then came approximately 2011 years of war.

[Ponce]

Awoke? about your post #50, I din't "celebrate" but simply said "so what"......to celebrate is to have feelings for "them" or about "them"..........I never celebrate when I kill a mosquito, only relief.

[Joe King]

What they do IS what has the power over me........if I slap you I expect you to punch me out.........thats what they are doing to Americans and all that you can say is "thank you".

That sounds like eye for eye tooth for tooth. Which leaves us all blind and toothless, but doesn't fix anything.

It also makes us all the same. Or are you better than them?

[ximmy]

That sounds like eye for eye tooth for tooth. Which leaves us all blind and toothless, but doesn't fix anything.

It also makes us all the same. Or are you better than them?

they are kosher...

[Joe King]

Ok. Maybe not exactly the same, lol, but it would make us act in the same manner.

[sirgonzo420]

I am fully aware of the context that Christ used the word "Suffer".
Jesus meant let the Children come to Him, and do not block them access.

Please show me the Scriptures that outline this "Age of Accountability".

First verse that comes to mind is:


Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Here's a little essay:

http://www.gotquestions.org/age-of-accountability.html


At this point I will summarize the derailment of this thread.

1) Ponce celebrates the murder of an innocent child
2) I get disgusted and voice it
3) Morphs into the usual attack on Christ and Christianity



* Thinking.... *

Yup. Standard protocol.

I am sorry for contributing to the derailment of this thread.

Anyway, Ponce was being scornful and hard-hardened, and so to play "Devil's Advocate" (actually in this case closer to "Jehovah's Witness", lol), I merely pointed out that according to the general interpretation of christianity, there is a good possibility this child is burning in Hell right now. Now, I'm not saying I think that is right or wrong - I'm not God; it's not up to me anyway - I'm just pointing out that that's the way it is according to the scriptures.

The God of the Bible is a jealous god, as the Bible plainly states. A muslim man or buddhist who has never heard of Christ is condemned to Hell. Same for "jews" and anyone else who does not love and believe in Christ.

Awoke, you are showing sympathy and sadness for this boy's death, and I can appreciate that; I feel it too. Even though jews have caused me more harm than good, I cannot fault the young boy, and I feel sadness for his pain. The God of the Bible on the other hand, may be a bit more hard-hearted.... like Ponce (who likes to refer to himself as "God Jr"...). You should realize that the God of the Bible is not completely about LOVE, but also revenge and hate and jealousy.

Forgive me when I said that christianity was started by "jews". The word "jew" is a very sneaky word, not unlike the people who attach themselves to it. The culture that gave birth to the culture of christianity was hebrew, not "jewish" as it is used today. "Jews" (khazars) of today like to muddy the waters between themselves and the ancient and long dead hebrews.

[sirgonzo420]

That sounds like eye for eye tooth for tooth. Which leaves us all blind and toothless, but doesn't fix anything.

It also makes us all the same. Or are you better than them?

"eye for an eye" and "tooth for a tooth" wouldn't leave us *all* blind and toothless... only criminals.

[sirgonzo420]

No, the "Christians" were started by GOD who manifested in the flesh as JESUS CHRIST, who was the seed of the HOLY SPIRIT and born to MARY.

It is arguable that Christ was or was not jewish. I don't argue or research it, because He is God.

Wow Gonzo. I suppose nothing should surprise me at this point...

If the christians were "started by God", then so were the babylonian talmudists and satanists as well as satan himself.

God is the Creator of All, is He not?

[mightymanx]

Wooh- wee this is a hot one.

I like danger so into the frey I go.

First I urge people to put the drama llamas back in th barn before real dammage is done.

Second as far as Religions go all have blood on their hands and none are innocent. we will never find out the true answer in this realm.

Third I believe this attack is a false flag to ensure that Anti-semitism is still viewed as the highest crime of this land. Look at it without emotion.

Involves child..........................Check
anti-semitism angle..................Check
Sick and emotion provoking.......Check
Will be on tv 24/7.....................Check
Distracts the masses.................Check


Ding ding ding winner!!!!!

Now the key is what is the left hand doing right now while we are not looking?

[Joe King]

SirGonzo, the criminals would have had to take yours first. Then you take theirs in revenge. Since the criminal in this case acts first, that leaves us blind and toothless and the criminal who started it with one tooth left that we can't see to be able to knock out. In that situation, they "win". {that is, if being made blind and left with only one tooth could be called "winning"}

[BillBoard]

Wooh- wee this is a hot one.

I like danger so into the frey I go.

First I urge people to put the drama llamas back in th barn before real dammage is done.

Second as far as Religions go all have blood on their hands and none are innocent. we will never find out the true answer in this realm.

Third I believe this attack is a false flag to ensure that Anti-semitism is still viewed as the highest crime of this land. Look at it without emotion.

Involves child..........................Check
anti-semitism angle..................Check
Sick and emotion provoking.......Check
Will be on tv 24/7.....................Check
Distracts the masses.................Check


Ding ding ding winner!!!!!

Now the key is what is the left hand doing right now while we are not looking?

You got me thinking, and it is another of those no-win situations you always have with the jews when they are always the winners.

If the killer was not a jew, the act would be used to bring sympathy to them vermin, since it is a jew, you are anti-semite for condemning him. Heads they win, tails you lose....

[Ponce]

Some day you people will the difference between the "Semites" and the ZIONIST and will stop using the word Semite where it does not belong..........I AM A ANTI-ZIONIST.

[Dogman]

Some day you people will the difference between the "Semites" and the ZIONIST and will stop using the word Semite where it does not belong..........I AM A ANTI-ZIONIST.

A few weeks ago , I broke out in hives, and went to my local pharmacy. They reshuffled the shelfs since my last visit, so I asked one of the pharmacist where the itch stuff was. He took me to the correct isle, and I had to comment on his accent. He said he was from Palestine, but born in Jordan. I mentioned Israel and what the Zionist were doing and this guy lit up. I told him , I do not mind jews but I do not like Zionist and the guy dam near broke my arm, shaking my hand, saying it is the Zionists that are the problem, He said he did not hate Jews, but he sure did not like or care for Zionists. I made a friend that day.

[Ponce]

Make it TWO friends (:

[Neuro]

Some day you people will the difference between the "Semites" and the ZIONIST and will stop using the word Semite where it does not belong..........I AM A ANTI-ZIONIST.

So was this boy a Zionist then?

[osoab]

Make it TWO friends (:


Ponce, I don't know of many here that don't/wouldn't feel sympathy for the family for the heinous act that occurred.

He was just a kid old man. You never know he could have been the one to wake up the Zionist sympathizers.

I think you need to get out and interact with more people. Being by yourself for too long can make one rather crusty.

[Ponce]

I use my own flashlight to see my way, it always work.

[Santa]

This thread is almost too much for me to respond to. Of course my heart goes out to that little child and his parents. My God... how can it be otherwise.

The reason we should hope to avoid hate is that we become what we hate.

[ximmy]

This thread is almost too much for me to respond to. Of course my heart goes out to that little child and his parents. My God... how can it be otherwise.

The reason we should hope to avoid hate is that we become what we hate.

so... we will all become jewish bankers???

[Santa]

so... we will all become jewish bankers???

No, you'll just grow a long Jewish nose and develop liver spots like Greenspan.

[Eyebone]

Levi Aron, priest of the cabala.

Working on his "matsa" recipe?

[freespirit]

this whole thread is beyond disturbing.
God bless that poor child's soul.

[MAGNES]

I'm with Awoke.

What about the monster that did that.

Could be anyone's kid.

Show some compassion for the victims you can come down and out the
criminals harder.

Take the high ground.

And WOW to SirGonzo !

[gunDriller]

so... we will all become jewish bankers???

or maybe a Hollywood casting agent, like Ari Emanuel.

[sirgonzo420]

I'm with Awoke.

What about the monster that did that.

Could be anyone's kid.

Show some compassion for the victims you can come down and out the
criminals harder.

Take the high ground.

I agree.


And WOW to SirGonzo !

What's that supposed to mean?

???

[Dogman]

If the Christians were "started by God", then so were the Babylonian talmudists and satanists as well as Satan himself.

God is the Creator of All, is He not?


I'm with Awoke.

What about the monster that did that.

Could be anyone's kid.

Show some compassion for the victims you can come down and out the
criminals harder.

Take the high ground.

And WOW to SirGonzo !


I agree.



What's that supposed to mean?

???

Just a guess,

But I do believe it was because of your, Nailed it on the head statement! Which is a Conundrum that has no answer.

[MAGNES]

I agree.


Thanks for agreeing with me.



What's that supposed to mean?
???

You are Man of the Cloth ? ?????????

What should I call you, Reverend, Priest, Father John ? ???

[MAGNES]

Just a guess,

But I do believe it was because of your, Nailed it on the head statement!
Which is a Conundrum that has no answer.

Dogman, just in case you missed my comments in the past, I am not religious,
nor am I a fan of the OT, and I have had a lot to say about that, NT is Christianity,
I have stated and some confirmed on here, and that is what my Father John explained
to me in high school, in the past strong literary devices were used, allegory, metaphor,
this is known, man wrote the OT, very disturbing in many parts, other peoples history
as well I believe, they set out to write an epic, I know the history here, much of my
posts on religion/Christianity are of a historical nature, not religious, I think I piss off
all sides here with my posts, a lot of mythology is just forces of nature, explained with
stories to educate as well, that is what people did back then, but today we have people
that do promote satanism, black magic, false teachings and other deceits and do it cryptically
and somehow manage to attach it to other beliefs, search the Kaballah for books to see,
it is very disturbing, you can see all of this come together in Masonry
as just one example of one group and movement. Everything exists out there cause
it is human nature, but we are not supposed to promote and be the dark side.
The Occult always existed and can only exist to batter the good and status quo,
it cannot stand on it's own, never has, and never will. Satan exists because bad
people exist. There is no conundrum as portrayed above. A better question would
be, were bad people born that way, destroyers of civilization and people, Christians
teach everyone is redeemable, to forgive, to be your brothers keeper, only way to
build a society, doesn't mean bad goes unpunished or there is no war ever.

[Dogman]

If the christians were "started by God", then so were the babylonian talmudists and satanists as well as satan himself.

God is the Creator of All, is He not?


I'm with Awoke.

What about the monster that did that.

Could be anyone's kid.

Show some compassion for the victims you can come down and out the
criminals harder.

Take the high ground.

And WOW to SirGonzo !


Dogman, just in case you missed my comments in the past, I am not religious,
nor am I a fan of the OT, and I have had a lot to say about that, NT is Christianity,
I have stated and some confirmed on here, and that is what my Father John explained
to me in high school, in the past strong literary devices were used, allegory, metaphor,
this is known, man wrote the OT, very disturbing in many parts, other peoples history
as well I believe, they set out to write an epic, I know the history here, much of my
posts on religion/Christianity are of a historical nature, not religious, I think I piss off
all sides here with my posts, a lot of mythology is just forces of nature, explained with
stories to educate as well, that is what people did back then, but today we have people
that do promote satanism, black magic, false teachings and other deceits and do it cryptically
and somehow manage to attach it to other beliefs, search the Kaballah for books to see,
it is very disturbing, you can see all of this come together in Masonry
as just one example of one group and movement. Everything exists out there cause
it is human nature, but we are not supposed to promote and be the dark side.
The Occult always existed and can only exist to batter the good and status quo,
it cannot stand on it's own, never has, and never will. Satan exists because bad
people exist. There is no conundrum as portrayed above. A better question would
be, were bad people born that way, destroyers of civilization and people, Christians
teach everyone is redeemable, to forgive, to be your brothers keeper, only way to
build a society, doesn't mean bad goes unpunished or there is no war ever.

We pretty much agree in view points.

I was just guessing, the question that , sirgonzo420 asked "is" the Conundrum, that has no answer. And yes I personally have seen kids that were born that were dam near pure evil from the start. The ones I have kept track of are ether dead now, or sitting in prison never to see freedom again. And knew the parents , the kids were not brought up that way. Evil does exist, the question as I see it, is it a human trait or is there a supernatural source? And if evil does have a supernatural source, there must be the counter force, of good. Again we have a conundrum.

The only answer is having faith and believing in which way one wants. Because there will never be any direct proven evidence. That man's hands have never touched.

Did not mean to butt in , but the question sirgonzo420 asked was one I could not resist, to throw my dos pesos in.

[Joe King]

You only have a conundrum if you perceive them to be exactly equal, no?

[ximmy]

News Worthy: 8 year old jew boy murdered

Not News Worthy: Israel kills 8 year old boy
http://www.black-iris.com/2006/03/07/israel-kills-8-year-old-islamic-jihad-militant/

[Dogman]

You only have a conundrum if you perceive them to be exactly equal, no?

Another conundrum, are they equal?

It is questions like these that do not have an answer, that can be proven or tested by man.

[MAGNES]

And if evil does have a supernatural source, there must be the counter force, of good. Again we have a conundrum.


Freedom is a natural condition of man, so is being good and doing the right thing.

The Ancients recognized this, when they wrote and debated major ideas.

And you can see this truth in building society, especially Western Society.
No freedom no progress, no moral standards and justice means no society.

[Dogman]

Freedom is a natural condition of man, so is being good and doing the right thing.

But then if being good is natural , then evil is unnatural? These type of debates are fun and thought provoking. Now what I would call a unnatural evil is what that guy did to that kid, yes he was a Jew and his killer was a Jew. But the kid was just a kid. Sounds like a curse to blame the children for what evil their fathers did.

[mick silver]

a riddle whose answer is or involves a pun

[Dogman]

a riddle whose answer is or involves a pun

The word is use this way also. A logical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic) postulation that evades resolution, an intricate and difficult problem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_logic

[sirgonzo420]

Thanks for agreeing with me.



You are Man of the Cloth ? ?????????

What should I call you, Reverend, Priest, Father John ? ???

I don't use any titles, although I could stick "Reverend Doctor" before my name, or "Reverend" before and "D.D." after.

I have no flock or congregation, I don't "preach" exactly, but I can perform marriages and baptisms and other such things, although I don't.

I read the Bible cover-to-cover (the english KJV) when I was a boy, but I was not raised by religious fanatics or anything; I simply wanted to read what was there for myself. I didn't particularly care for all that I read, although there were good things in the Bible, I was left with more questions than answers, and a bit of digust. If you're 13 years old and have questions about your christian faith, by all means DO NOT read the Bible! At least not the whole thing. Just stick to the parts from which the TeeVee preachers always seem to read...

Since I wasn't pleased with the common english translation, I decided I needed to read it in hebrew and greek, so at least I would have read the real thing. I never finished the whole thing in the original tongues, but I did pick up some hebrew and a little greek and was able to look up and read passages in which I was particularly interested. Genesis ("Bereshit" in the original hebrew) is quite interesting in the original tongue... the english translation is a simplified version stripped down to only one layer.

Anyway, after being tired of being misled by religious books, I stumbled upon psychedelics, which threw me quite quickly into God's own living room. I was reminded of the shekinah in the Bible.

If you want to understand God and/or the Nature of God, you can read many books, learn hebrew and greek, but I find it more expedient, more visceral, and more honest to eat 5 grams or so of psilocybe cubensis mushrooms, or a few hundred micrograms of LSD-25, or to smoke a good blast of DMT, and let God speak for Himself. He is always speaking, but He is MUCH easier to hear tripping! :)

I am not a "believer" in many senses of the word, but I am not an atheist either.

That which men have called "God" is real, but is not a book character, and is not a joke. There are no words that can be spoken, written or typed about the True God.

Some people have a problem with the word/name "God" and talk about "Nature" or something instead. It makes no difference to the Source.

There IS a Source. A sustained, unchanging Source.

Forgive me if I cause confusion myself when speaking of "God"; sometimes when I say "God" I mean the KJV Biblical character, and other times I mean the real deal - that which IS.

GOD/the Source/the Force/Nature/whatever-one-wishes-to-call-it is ineffable and generally beyond all comprehension by Man.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xcUskQ-VRTI/SMZobztycRI/AAAAAAAAAx8/yvgwrUo--0Q/s320/YoJesusOfTheMushrooms.jpg

[Gaillo]

VERY fine post, Sir Gonzo. Well said.

I also went to the original tongue texts in my religious searchings... some REALLY interesting stuff in the OT - but I decided it wasn't my cup of tea - too much irrationality and superstition.

[gunDriller]

some New Yorker goes all Hannibal Lector on an 8 year old boy and it's news.

Israel has been going Hannibal Lector on the Palestinians since 1935, since before Israel existed, via Jewish Terror Gangs Irgun, Stern, & Haganah ... then with US support since 1948 ... and it's Business As Usual.

[Dogman]

some New Yorker goes all Hannibal Lector on an 8 year old boy and it's news.

Israel has been going Hannibal Lector on the Palestinians since 1935, since before Israel existed, via Jewish Terror Gangs Irgun, Stern, & Haganah ... then with US support since 1948 ... and it's Business As Usual.

I agree with you, there can also be this factor. The New York kid was killed here, and the Palestinians are over there. Sort of the it's is in my back yard, if the killing was in the states. But the killings in Palestine and elsewhere are not.

Are the news media bias? Sure they are! They report on what gets the attention of their customers.(its all about ratings) And the closer to home the more the coverage will be. What is more news worthy, a kid butchered here in the states or a kid butchered half a world away? Both are wrong! But the attention will be focused on the one here, its is in our backyard.

We here on this forum, do pay attention, because of the wrongs being done over there and elsewhere by the Zionists and are outraged by their actions. But for most people in the usa , they are more concerned living day to day here, and do not care or have a clue about the rest of the world , burning down around their ears.

[Santa]

If we don't cling to our own humanity by practicing compassion and exercising empathy we will lose those characteristics and this civilization will perish. And rightfully so.

[gunDriller]

If we don't cling to our own humanity by practicing compassion and exercising empathy we will lose those characteristics and this civilization will perish. And rightfully so.

civilization in the US perished - past tense.

we have had top-down anarchy in the US since 9-11 - and strong arguments can be made that it goes back much further.

this is not your father's civilization-mobile.

[Santa]

civilization in the US perished - past tense.

we have had top-down anarchy in the US since 9-11 - and strong arguments can be made that it goes back much further.

this is not your father's civilization-mobile.

I read somewhere that the root meaning of civi as in civilization means "people of God." Can't find a link to support it though.

Anyway, I believe my primary responsibility toward the advancement of civilization isn't to produce or sell more iPads, but to practice more empathy and compassion,
although at this point it often seems like clinging to some warm squishy substance in an ocean sized toilet, admittedly.

[Book]

I believe my primary responsibility toward the advancement of civilization isn't to produce or sell more iPads, but to practice more empathy and compassion...



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KsQYhFh4VYI/TcZKGlvbVtI/AAAAAAAABRg/YhTLyW_zxJg/s320/santa-claus_father-christmas_st-nick.jpg

Such a saint.

::)

[Ponce]

If we don't cling to our own humanity by practicing compassion and exercising empathy we will lose those characteristics and this civilization will perish. And rightfully so.

Do you mean ........ like the Zionist "Jews" have done in Palestine? and that's why they will perish.

Firest post of the day.........good morning to one and all.

[Santa]

Such a saint.


Do you mean ........ like the Zionist "Jews" have done in Palestine? and that's why they will perish.


Jesus Christ! Are you two actually arguing in favor of murdering and dismembering innocent little children? WTF is wrong with you?

My point is only that compassion and empathy are necessary for any civilization to survive. Period. Undermining that basic message strikes me as FUBAR.

[Ponce]

Hello FUBAR.

[gunDriller]

My point is only that compassion and empathy are necessary for any civilization to survive. Period. Undermining that basic message strikes me as FUBAR.

where in modern America do you see compassion & empathy practiced by the US gov. ?

where in the world do you see compassion & empathy practiced by the US gov. & Israel ?

blowing off some child's limbs in Iraq & then inviting him to an American hospital for artificial limbs to be involved ... doesn't really count.


the US gov & Israel themselves are morally FUBAR. they have undermined the basic message of Compassion & Empathy since at least 1963 - or since 1948 - or since 1935.

the death of the child in New York, although a tragedy for his family, is a drop in the bucket compared to the Death & Destruction spread by the US & Israel and their hangers on.

[mightymanx]

Ask yourself who benifits from all this attention and media play?

That is why it happened.

Now try and figure out what they are trying to hide while you get outraged by this.

The distraction apparently is working perfectly.

[Book]

If you want to understand God and/or the Nature of God, you can read many books, learn hebrew and greek, but I find it more expedient, more visceral, and more honest to eat 5 grams or so of psilocybe cubensis mushrooms, or a few hundred micrograms of LSD-25, or to smoke a good blast of DMT, and let God speak for Himself. He is always speaking, but He is MUCH easier to hear tripping! :)




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhYjZbIXGm0

:)

[Awoke]

Gonzo, you are up to something.
You are not a minister without faith in Christ. You have to have faith in Jesus to call yourself that, no matter what your piece of paper (Certificate) says.

You may call youself a minister, and you may tell people you're a minister, but if you don't have faith in Jesus Christ, you are not a Christian Minister. To walk around telling people you are is lying.

You may have been ordained in the past, but if you didn't believe in Jesus, you have nullified it.

Also, you are repeatedly referring to OT Scripture in which God is angry, jealous, and vengeful, then you tell any "kid" that is struggling with his Christian faith to stay away from Scripture.

You are not mentioning the countless OT Scriptures in which God is kind, loving and forgiving, and you are not differentiating between the OT (Before Jesus) and the NT (During and after Jesus). This is dis-info, misleading, sneaky, and suspect. I have always liked you, but something is up. I am seeing an agenda here, and I am going to be paying attention.

Young or struggling Christians: read Jude. Read First John. Read Revelation. Read the sermon on the mount. Prayer and Scripture are key to understanding this world, why it is how it is, and what is going on.


The Father has it in him to forgive even those who have never heard of Jesus or God. He knows all things and knows what is in people's hearts. The pigmies in the jungle, the starving children in 3rd world countries, et al. God knows the hearts of us all, and we are judged accordingly.

Once a person knows the truth about God, the Spirit and the Son, they are much more accountable in this life.




Never to have known Jesus Christ in any way is the greatest of misfortunes, but it involves no perversity or ingratitude. But after having known, to reject or forget Him, is such a horrible and mad crime as to be scarcely credible.



To know the Lord is real and to choose to reject him is the ultimate form of apostasy.




Just a guess,

But I do believe it was because of your, Nailed it on the head statement! Which is a Conundrum that has no answer.


In regards to the whole "Oh, well then I guess God created the devil too then" is elementary, and certainly far from being a conundrum.

Yes, God created all things, including His angels. They are given free will to choose if they want to love, serve and glorify God or not. Lucifer exhalted himself to be above God and was cast out with a 3rd of his angels.

Being that your knowledge is so steeped in FM cultism, (Pike, Manly, etc) and your background in OT, knowledge in hebrew, claims that you're an ordained minister, etc, you would know this. That is why the FMCultists celebrate lucifer as "The first rebel", "the liberator", etc.

Because of his rebellion against the Father and Creator, they act as if lucifer is a great emancipator, when in fact he leads the strays down the road to eternal destruction.

[sirgonzo420]

Gonzo, you are up to something.
You are not a minister without faith in Christ. You have to have faith in Jesus to call yourself that, no matter what your piece of paper (Certificate) says.

You may call youself a minister, and you may tell people you're a minister, but if you don't have faith in Jesus Christ, you are not a Christian Minister. To walk around telling people you are is lying.

You may have been ordained in the past, but if you didn't believe in Jesus, you have nullified it.

Also, you are repeatedly referring to OT Scripture in which God is angry, jealous, and vengeful, then you tell any "kid" that is struggling with his Christian faith to stay away from Scripture.

You are not mentioning the countless OT Scriptures in which God is kind, loving and forgiving, and you are not differentiating between the OT (Before Jesus) and the NT (During and after Jesus). This is dis-info, misleading, sneaky, and suspect. I have always liked you, but something is up. I am seeing an agenda here, and I am going to be paying attention.

Young or struggling Christians: read Jude. Read First John. Read Revelation. Read the sermon on the mount. Prayer and Scripture are key to understanding this world, why it is how it is, and what is going on.


The Father has it in him to forgive even those who have never heard of Jesus or God. He knows all things and knows what is in people's hearts. The pigmies in the jungle, the starving children in 3rd world countries, et al. God knows the hearts of us all, and we are judged accordingly.

Once a person knows the truth about God, the Spirit and the Son, they are much more accountable in this life.



To know the Lord is real and to choose to reject him is the ultimate form of apostasy.






In regards to the whole "Oh, well then I guess God created the devil too then" is elementary, and certainly far from being a conundrum.

Yes, God created all things, including His angels. They are given free will to choose if they want to love, serve and glorify God or not. Lucifer exhalted himself to be above God and was cast out with a 3rd of his angels.

I like you too.

I hope there is no animosity because I am not a christian. It's not because I haven't tried; I've been a diligent student of the bible since I learned to read. I am not "saved"; Jesus has not "come into my heart" (at least I haven't noticed), although I'm not opposed to the idea.

Salvation is by Grace, through Faith. Even when I had the "faith" I lacked the "grace". Perhaps it is God's Will that I am among those damned to Hell?

Also, I never said I was a christian minister. I could be a guru or a yogi or a witchdoctor. I am none of those, but maybe you get the idea.

When I was a child I grew very tired of people shrugging off my religious questions, so I read the books, and had only more questions. In my experience, reading the bible did not answer my questions, but it did tell me why nobody else would answer them. If a young christian has questions, but wants to keep their faith, I would advise them to pray instead of telling them to read the whole bible.

If someone is to be "saved by the blood of the Lamb", then they will be saved if they've read any Scripture or not, right?


Being that your knowledge is so steeped in FM cultism, (Pike, Manly, etc) and your background in OT, knowledge in hebrew, claims that you're an ordained minister, etc, you would know this. That is why the FMCultists celebrate lucifer as "The first rebel", "the liberator", etc.

Because of his rebellion against the Father and Creator, they act as if lucifer is a great emancipator, when in fact he leads the strays down the road to eternal destruction.As Percival once said: "You have your gods mixed up. It was a very old trick they played on you a long time ago."

Perhaps Satan*, the Great Deceiver, got an earlier start than you had imagined?

I don't have a dog in the fight. If I'm on any side, it would be on God's (the Real one), but only because He made me.

God MADE me to question all things; Himself included. That's why I'm doing it.



*As a side note: "Satan" means "adversary". God is the Devil's "Satan".

[Awoke]

I like you too.

I hope there is no animosity because I am not a christian. It's not because I haven't tried; I've been a diligent student of the bible since I learned to read. I am not "saved"; Jesus has not "come into my heart" (at least I haven't noticed), although I'm not opposed to the idea.

Salvation is by Grace, through Faith. Even when I had the "faith" I lacked the "grace". Perhaps it is God's Will that I am among those damned to Hell?

Also, I never said I was a christian minister. I could be a guru or a yogi or a witchdoctor. I am none of those, but maybe you get the idea.

When I was a child I grew very tired of people shrugging off my religious questions, so I read the books, and had only more questions. In my experience, reading the bible did not answer my questions, but it did tell me why nobody else would answer them. If a young christian has questions, but wants to keep their faith, I would advise them to pray instead of telling them to read the whole bible.

If someone is to be "saved by the blood of the Lamb", then they will be saved if they've read any Scripture or not, right?

As Percival once said: "You have your gods mixed up. It was a very old trick they played on you a long time ago."

Perhaps Satan*, the Great Deceiver, got an earlier start than you had imagined?

I don't have a dog in the fight. If I'm on any side, it would be on God's (the Real one), but only because He made me.

God MADE me to question all things; Himself included. That's why I'm doing it.



*As a side note: "Satan" means "adversary". God is the Devil's "Satan".

No animosity.
Why don't you tell me what type of ordained minister you are? Spare me the assumptions and the confusion. Just come out with it.

The root of the word "satan" may be linked to "adversary", but the truth is the truth: God is good, lucifer is evil.

The use of freemasonic linguistic trickery (Up is down, below is as above, right is wrong, etc) is promptly recognized and quashed.

[sirgonzo420]

No animosity.
Why don't you tell me what type of ordained minister you are? Spare me the assumptions and the confusion. Just come out with it.

The root of the word "satan" may be linked to "adversary", but the truth is the truth: God is good, lucifer is evil.

The use of freemasonic linguistic trickery (Up is down, below is as above, right is wrong, etc) is promptly recognized and quashed.

I'm non-denominational. I have no flock/congregation/church.

Is God the "good" one because He is "good"?

Or are the things God does "good" because He's God?

What about poor ol' Job?

[Santa]

http://www.themonastery.org/?destination=ordination&gclid=CPPo8JL8i6oCFRMS2godPD550Q

But what if we live in a multiverse? ;D



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[Awoke]

I'm non-denominational. I have no flock/congregation/church.

Is God the "good" one because He is "good"?

Or are the things God does "good" because He's God?

What about poor ol' Job?


So you're non-denominational and non-Christian, and you're really stuck on the Old Testament.
I'm unfortunately left to assume from this point, because you won't come out and say it.

Anyways, it is obvious that God is good becuase all good things come from him. It is also obvious that lucifer is evil because all things destructive come from him.

Job was put to the test and passed. I believe he served a role for us to learn from. Job suffered intensely, and I think we are to learn a few things from him. I am thankful the Lord has not put me to such extreme tests, and instead has saw fit to bless me with ah healthy life, healthy family, etc.

[sirgonzo420]

So you're non-denominational and non-Christian, and you're really stuck on the Old Testament.
I'm unfortunately left to assume from this point, because you won't come out and say it.

Anyways, it is obvious that God is good becuase all good things come from him. It is also obvious that lucifer is evil because all things destructive come from him.

Job was put to the test and passed. I believe he served a role for us to learn from. Job suffered intensely, and I think we are to learn a few things from him. I am thankful the Lord has not put me to such extreme tests, and instead has saw fit to bless me with ah healthy life, healthy family, etc.

No assumption is necessary. I've stated honestly multiple times that I am a WHITE man.

LOL at your insinuation that I'm jewish because I know the bible. I'm not anymore stuck on the Old Testament than you are stuck on the New Testament - I've read both, I live by the good, and ignore the garbage in both Testaments.

I am not a jew. Not by birth, not by belief, not by conversion, not by anything. I was raised christian, so I read the bible in english - it didn't satisfy me, so I started reading it in hebrew (if the greek came first, I would have started learning greek first).

How can evil things come from Lucifer if God is the Source? Why is God (the bible character) letting his Creation turn to shit?

I don't really appreciate you basically calling me a jew because I know your religious books better than you do.


EDIT: I am glad God has not seen it fit to torment you as he did Job. Not everyone is so lucky.

[Awoke]

I never said you were a jew. I am just stating that you're non-denominational and non-Christian, and I only ever see you quote OT, and usually I notice you pick heavy scriptures that can be used in a negative fashion when they are used out of context.

Regarding your questions, no one can answer for God, but I would say the same thing I always say:

God doesn't want a bunch of robotic drones to serve him, he wants us to choose him with our own free will. The same went for lucifer and the other angels who tried to usurp the Lord. They had free will. By turning away from God and doing to opposite of what God wants you to do, you are doing the opposite of good, by your choice. (Not you specifically, just saying)

Your choice to turn against what God wants from us is not God's fault, it's yours.

Why is He letting his creation turn to shit? I Thought you read the Bibile a bunch of times, and you are a master or Scripture?
Sarcasm aside, the simple answer is that this world will pass, and a new world will be given to us. Read Apocalypse again.

Whether that new world is material or spiritual, I don't know, but I sure know one thing: This world (earth) is temporary, and our stay here is short. When my time is up, I want to know where I am going.

Gonzo, don't think I'm attacking you in this thread. You and I have always gotten along in the past, and I am not trying to be a douche. It just seem you are continually being vague regarding your ordainment details and you are continually beating a hammer against God. I'm not sure what His plan is for you, but I hope you start reflecting on your posts and take stock.

You are reminding me of this:




[11] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=72&ch=1&l=11#x) Woe unto them, for they have gone in the way of Cain: and after the error of Balaam they have for reward poured out themselves, and have perished in the contradiction of Core.
[12] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=72&ch=1&l=12#x) These are spots in their banquets, feasting together without fear, feeding themselves, clouds without water, which are carried about by winds, trees of the autumn, unfruitful, twice dead, plucked up by the roots,
[13] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=72&ch=1&l=13#x) Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own confusion; wandering stars, to whom the storm of darkness is reserved for ever.
[14] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=72&ch=1&l=14#x) Now of these Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying: Behold, the Lord cometh with thousands of his saints,
[15] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=72&ch=1&l=15#x) To execute judgment upon all, and to reprove all the ungodly for all the works of their ungodliness, whereby they have done ungodly, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against God.

[Joe King]

Pardon my interjection in yours and Sirgonzos discussion, but when I read this I wanted to make a short comment.


God doesn't want a bunch of robotic drones to serve him, he wants us to choose him with our own free will.
Your choice to turn against what God wants from us is not God's fault, it's yours. Exactly.

Per my understanding,
God is love and love never insists upon it's own way. Therefore, God loves everyone enough to let them choose their own way so as not to end up with the aforementioned robotic drones.
Which is why you also gots to have the knowledge of good and evil. Without that, you be nothing but a drone as you are incapable of making an actual choice.

Logic says that no one would want robotic drones for all eternity. Can you imagine how quickly that would get old? lol


Ok. Back to you guys now. :)

[sirgonzo420]

I never said you were a jew. I am just stating that you're non-denominational and non-Christian, and I only ever see you quote OT, and usually I notice you pick heavy scriptures that can be used in a negative fashion when they are used out of context.

No, you never *said* it, but you said you were "left to assume". Now no assumption is necessary. I am not a jew. Anyone who knows me in real life would laugh at someone thinking I'm jewish.


Regarding your questions, no one can answer for God, but I would say the same thing I always say:

God doesn't want a bunch of robotic drones to serve him, he wants us to choose him with our own free will. The same went for lucifer and the other angels who tried to usurp the Lord. They had free will. By turning away from God and doing to opposite of what God wants you to do, you are doing the opposite of good, by your choice. (Not you specifically, just saying)

Your choice to turn against what God wants from us is not God's fault, it's yours.

Fair enough. However, ever since I was a kid, I had a hard time understanding how God could be "surprised". He knows what's up the whole way through, does He not?

If something is happening, it's because it's the Will of God.

How can things EVER go against the Divine Plan? Perhaps the Plan is vastly more complicated than mere mortals can comprehend.



Why is He letting his creation turn to shit? I Thought you read the Bibile a bunch of times, and you are a master or Scripture?
Sarcasm aside, the simple answer is that this world will pass, and a new world will be given to us. Read Apocalypse again.

I never claimed to be a master of Scripture. Anyway, I was asking YOUR opinion.

Apocalypse? You mean Revelation?



Whether that new world is material or spiritual, I don't know, but I sure know one thing: This world (earth) is temporary, and our stay here is short. When my time is up, I want to know where I am going.

Fair enough. Like Pascal's Wager?


Gonzo, don't think I'm attacking you in this thread. You and I have always gotten along in the past, and I am not trying to be a douche. It just seem you are continually being vague regarding your ordainment details and you are continually beating a hammer against God. I'm not sure what His plan is for you, but I hope you start reflecting on your posts and take stock.

I appreciate you making it clear you are not attacking me. I didn't think you were.

I don't mean to be vague about being ordained; there's just not much to it.

I don't beat any hammers against God. I actually have a surprisingly good relationship with God. I just want to clear His name. There is a book character who uses that name and it undermines the True God's Glory.

God is greater than anything and everything and simply cannot be pinned down to books or words in any tongue. It is folly to try. Even my attempts at explaining the True God are folly. The Truth is unspeakable.

Rest assured, God's Plan for me is to do EXACTLY as I am doing. I cannot deviate from the Plan.


You are reminding me of this:

(quote removed)

I'm not trying to.

Ya know how the "jews" (khazars) of today are confused for the "jews" (hebrews) of the bible?

It's kinda like that with God... The True God is not merely the biblical character.

When someone says "jew" many people associate the word with the biblical hebrews.

When someone says "God" many people associate the word with the biblical God character.

God is without limit. The bible puts constraints on Him.

[sirgonzo420]

Pardon my interjection in yours and Sirgonzos discussion, but when I read this I wanted to make a short comment.

Exactly.

Per my understanding,
God is love and love never insists upon it's own way. Therefore, God loves everyone enough to let them choose their own way so as not to end up with the aforementioned robotic drones.
Which is why you also gots to have the knowledge of good and evil. Without that, you be nothing but a drone as you are incapable of making an actual choice.

Logic says that no one would want robotic drones for all eternity. Can you imagine how quickly that would get old? lol


Ok. Back to you guys now. :)


In the bible, the "knowledge of good and evil" was forbidden by the God character, and championed by the shaman-enchanter nachash (נָחָשׁ), who is usually called "Satan" or "Lucifer".

Man was DAMNED for that knowledge.

The eating of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil went against the "official plan" of the bible.

[Awoke]

However, ever since I was a kid, I had a hard time understanding how God could be "surprised". He knows what's up the whole way through, does He not?

If something is happening, it's because it's the Will of God.


That's the way I see it.



How can things EVER go against the Divine Plan? Perhaps the Plan is vastly more complicated than mere mortals can comprehend.


Exactly.



I never claimed to be a master of Scripture. Anyway, I was asking YOUR opinion.


I shared my opinion.



Apocalypse? You mean Revelation?


Yes.




Fair enough. Like Pascal's Wager?


I've never heard of that before.



There is a book character who uses that name and it undermines the True God's Glory.


Please elaborate in detail.



God is greater than anything and everything and simply cannot be pinned down to books or words in any tongue. It is folly to try. Even my attempts at explaining the True God are folly. The Truth is unspeakable.


Agreed.



Ya know how the "jews" (khazars) of today are confused for the "jews" (hebrews) of the bible?

It's kinda like that with God... The True God is not merely the biblical character.

When someone says "jew" many people associate the word with the biblical hebrews.

When someone says "God" many people associate the word with the biblical God character.

God is without limit. The bible puts constraints on Him.

So then is your God the Creator, or another god?

[Joe King]

SG, couldn't it be a plan within a plan?

Besides, I think that that was "the plan" all along. ie that tree was put there so its fruit would be eaten. Why else put it there?

Doesn't do any good to spill the beans too soon. Because if it's completely clear cut, only a fool would go the otherway.

[sirgonzo420]

That's the way I see it.



Exactly.

Then what is the problem? Things are going and will continue to go the way God wills them. It's not man's fault God loves drama.




I shared my opinion.

I appreciate it.


Yes. I thought so.





I've never heard of that before.from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager


Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people) philosopher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosopher), mathematician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematician), and physicist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicist) Blaise Pascal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaise_Pascal) that even if the existence of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God) cannot be determined through reason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reason), a rational person should wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling) as though God exists, because living life accordingly has everything to gain, and nothing to lose. Pascal formulated his suggestion uniquely on the God of Jesus Christ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ) as implied by the greater context of his Pensées (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pens%C3%A9es), a posthumously published collection of notes made by Pascal in his last years as he worked on a treatise (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treatise) on Christian apologetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_apologetics). The Wager was set out in note 233 of this work.
Following his argument establishing the Wager, Pascal addressed the possibility that some people may not be willing to sincerely believe in God even after acknowledging the enormous benefit of betting in favor of God's existence. In this case, he advises them to live as though they had faith, which may subvert their irrational passions and lead them to genuine belief.

Please elaborate in detail.The Bible was written by men. It was "inspired by God", just like everything else. However, if you paint your picture of God based solely on the words in the bible (especially translations, and not the original tongues), you will have a skewed view of the Divine.

God is without limit. He cannot even be discussed. Only the idea of Him can be discussed. The bible simplifies the most awesome Force in the Cosmos into a human-like character, complete with human emotions like love, anger, hate, jealousy, etc.

The true Creator/Source cannot be limited to the biblical character called "God", "Lord", "LORD" (YHVH), etc.







Agreed.

Good. :)



So then is your God the Creator, or another god?

There is only one.

The one that created is the same that sustains His Creation today.

[sirgonzo420]

SG, couldn't it be a plan within a plan?

Besides, I think that that was "the plan" all along. ie that tree was put there so its fruit would be eaten. Why else put it there?

Doesn't do any good to spill the beans too soon. Because if it's completely clear cut, only a fool would go the otherway.

(agreement)

[Awoke]

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager


In that case, no. Not like Pascals Wager. I know God to be real because he has worked in my life to show me He is real in specific ways that were specific to my particular journey.




The Bible was written by men. It was "inspired by God", just like everything else. However, if you paint your picture of God based solely on the words in the bible (especially translations, and not the original tongues), you will have a skewed view of the Divine.

God is without limit. He cannot even be discussed. Only the idea of Him can be discussed. The bible simplifies the most awesome Force in the Cosmos into a human-like character, complete with human emotions like love, anger, hate, jealousy, etc.

The true Creator/Source cannot be limited to the biblical character called "God", "Lord", "LORD" (YHVH), etc.


Just making sure that you are in awe of the Creator, and not the architect.

You never clarified the most important thing for me though:




There is a book character who uses that name and it undermines the True God's Glory.



Who?

[sirgonzo420]

In that case, no. Not like Pascals Wager. I know God to be real because he has worked in my life to show me He is real in specific ways that were specific to my particular journey.



Just making sure that you are in awe of the Creator, and not the architect.

You never clarified the most important thing for me though:



Who?



The character called "God"/"Lord"/"LORD"(YHVH)/"Jehovah"/"Jah"/"Elohim"/"Adonai"/"Shaddai"/etc... in the bible undermines the True Glory of God (the ineffable) because the bible seeks to personify God, to make Him more human, in the fashion of the ancient greek and roman mythologies.

"God" or "that-which-men-have-called-God" is the one who set the Cosmos in motion and who perpetuates it today. This is fact. The Cosmos IS, and IS here, and whatever put it here and keeps it here is "God".

The True God is not jealous, as the biblical character God is portrayed - for the True God has nothing of which to be jealous.

The Creator/Sustainer is generally beyond all mortal comprehension. One's ego must die before God can even begin to be seen in His full glory.

It's a heavy topic, no doubt. Words don't do it justice.

In my opinion, the best way to "understand" God, is not through reading, but direct experience.

I trust that you know God... at least a hint of him. If you at least realize that one cannot wrap their mind around God, then you are on the right track.

[Awoke]

I get what you're saying regarding the total incomprehensiblity of God, but I also get the feeling that you are dancing around what you mean to say.

I think that you are hesitating to commit in text that you believe Jesus Christ is not the Son of God the Father and Creator, made flesh. Correct me if I am wrong please.

[sirgonzo420]

I get what you're saying regarding the total incomprehensiblity of God, but I also get the feeling that you are dancing around what you mean to say.

I think that you are hesitating to commit in text that you believe Jesus Christ is not the Son of God the Father and Creator, made flesh. Correct me if I am wrong please.

When I was a child, I appealed to Christ to "save" me from sin and eternal damnation. To date, Christ has not answered the call.

I cannot say that I "believe Jesus Christ is not the Son of God the Father and Creator, made flesh" - I don't hold much of an opinion on that. I have never denied Christ. If anything, Christ denied me!

Although if Christ was Divine, why did he say this?:


Eli Eli lama sabachthani?He should have been on the same page as God the Father, correct?


"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" is something I used to wonder as a child...

[Awoke]

When Christ was flesh He was flesh like you and I.

The same way He said that, He likewise said in regard to His second coming:



Matthew 24:36 (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=24&l=36&f=s#x) But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone.

Mark 13:32 (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=48&ch=13&l=32&f=s#x) But of that day or hour no man knoweth, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father.




So that implies that He was trapped like us in this human shell, limited to human capabilities.
He was able to feel emotions like the rest of us, despair, pain, anxiety, fear, etc.

Matthew says He cried out "Eli Eli lama sabacthani?", and Luke says He cried out "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit".

You read the original Greek text, so you would be able to verify the translations and context better than me.

[sirgonzo420]

When Christ was flesh He was flesh like you and I.

The same way He said that, He likewise said in regard to His second coming:



So that implies that He was trapped like us in this human shell, limited to human capabilities.
He was able to feel emotions like the rest of us, despair, pain, anxiety, fear, etc.

Matthew says He cried out "Eli Eli lama sabacthani?", and Luke says He cried out "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit".

You read the original Greek text, so you would be able to verify the translations and context better than me.


As far as I know, both sayings are accepted as being words of Jesus.

The aramaic phrase Eli Eli lama sabacthani?" is possibly an allusion to Psalms 22.

My point was, why did Christ seem to be momentarily at odds with God the Father's Plan?

I make the assumption that if *I* were Christ, I would take my lot and bear my burden without crying out.

[Awoke]

I don't think that those words display Him being at odds with the divine plan. Christ felt fear and sadness like the rest of us. He knew that His purpose here was specific, and that He was meant to suffer for us, but that doesn't mean that He had to walk up to the Crucifix with a skip and a smile.


Look at what transpired, moments before Judas betrayed him for Crucifixion:




[40] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=22&l=40#x) And when he was come to the place, he said to them: Pray, lest ye enter into temptation.
[41] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=22&l=41#x) And he was withdrawn away from them a stone's cast; and kneeling down, he prayed,
[42] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=22&l=42#x) Saying: Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done.
[43] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=22&l=43#x) And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him. And being in an agony, he prayed the longer.
[44] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=22&l=44#x) And his sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground.
[45] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=49&ch=22&l=45#x) And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow.






[36] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=36#x) Then Jesus came with them into a country place which is called Gethsemani; and he said to his disciples: Sit you here, till I go yonder and pray.
[37] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=37#x) And taking with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, he began to grow sorrowful and to be sad.
[38] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=38#x) Then he saith to them: My soul is sorrowful even unto death: stay you here, and watch with me.
[39] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=39#x) And going a little further, he fell upon his face, praying, and saying: My Father, if it be possible, let this chalice pass from me. Nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
[40] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=40#x) And he cometh to his disciples, and findeth them asleep, and he saith to Peter: What? Could you not watch one hour with me?
[41] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=41#x) Watch ye, and pray that ye enter not into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh weak.

[42] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=42#x) Again the second time, he went and prayed, saying: My Father, if this chalice may not pass away, but I must drink it, thy will be done.
[43] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=43#x) And he cometh again and findeth them sleeping: for their eyes were heavy.
[44] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=44#x) And leaving them, he went again: and he prayed the third time, saying the selfsame word.
[45] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=45#x) Then he cometh to his disciples, and saith to them: Sleep ye now and take your rest; behold the hour is at hand, and the Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of sinners. [46] (http://drbo.org/x/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=26&l=46#x) Rise, let us go: behold he is at hand that will betray me.

[sirgonzo420]

I don't think that those words display Him being at odds with the divine plan. Christ felt fear and sadness like the rest of us. He knew that His purpose here was specific, and that He was meant to suffer for us, but that doesn't mean that He had to walk up to the Crucifix with a skip and a smile.


Look at what transpired, moments before Judas betrayed him for Crucifixion:

You're right; Christ wasn't at odds with God's Plan. He couldn't have been anyway... the plan is comprehensive.


He knew that His purpose here was specific, and that He was meant to suffer for us, but that doesn't mean that He had to walk up to the Crucifix with a skip and a smile.

True enough...

[Awoke]

I meant to comment on these remarks:


When I was a child, I appealed to Christ to "save" me from sin and eternal damnation. To date, Christ has not answered the call.


I would urge you to appeal again, with a sincere heart.



I have never denied Christ. If anything, Christ denied me!


Maybe He wants you to put forward more effort than some other people have had to put forward. Maybe He has a reason for that.

[sirgonzo420]

I meant to comment on these remarks:



I would urge you to appeal again, with a sincere heart.

I'm not sure if that's possible.




Maybe He wants you to put forward more effort than some other people have had to put forward. Maybe He has a reason for that.You might be right.

I feel as if I am exactly where I am meant to be, for good or ill. I am at peace with that. Que sera, sera.

Not to compare myself to Judas, but he had a place too.


Maybe one day it'll hit me like a ton of bricks and I'll be saved. But it would have to be like Saul on the road to Damascus. I stopped seeking salvation a long time ago.

[gunDriller]

Maybe one day it'll hit me like a ton of bricks and I'll be saved. But it would have to be like Saul on the road to Damascus. I stopped seeking salvation a long time ago.

that's pretty much where i am.

i am certain that God exists, and am content to leave it at that. not because of something i read, because of something that happened. no faith needed or involved.

i don't believe that God loves us - or hates us, or that there is (or is not) an after-existence.

i do notice that many human beings abhor uncertainty, that they want ANSWERS, especially comforting answers.

"God loves me, I'm gonna go to Heaven" ... i suppose that's comforting, if you can convince yourself that it is the case.


i have had the similar conversation repeatedly with both Muslims & Christians. the concept is similar ... accept Mohammed (or Jesus) as your Savior, you go to Heaven.

Muslims usually revere both Jesus and Mohammed, Christians don't wanna hear NOTHIN about Mohammed ... usually.


i apologize if anything i say is offensive to our Christian members. or our Muslim members, if we have any.

[bellevuebully]

SirGonz...with all due respect and sincerity, you have created your own comprehension of who God is. Your rebuttal will likely be the same that you have iterated in the past that man wrote the bible and is thus a fabrication. But in contrast to your own admission to the awesomeness and in-exhaustive complexity and in-comprehensiveness of God, you discount that he could use man, the image he claims to be formed after his same sort, to relay a message to same. In addition, you fail to see that this (his word given to us) is the post on which he stakes his claims and authenticates his conveyed truth. This is only the commonness of sense that God would only expect us to believe his word because it is, simply, believable and verifiable. The word is the map. The map can be believed because the signposts match the markings on the map.

Tying back to the first point, being that you have created your own image of God, that is no new trick. Welcome to the biggest club in the history of man. Regardless of what you have convinced yourself of or comforted yourself about, there is more truth in one psalm of the bible than there is in your lifetime of developing a philosophy of what truth is. The Word is a message and when sought out, one will see that it is from the final point of view. There is more than enough truth and insight in that message to decode it's authenticity, should one want to do so.

Some of the things G2Rad brought up in the past eluded to these coded messages, such as the encampment formation in 1 and 2 numbers. Another might be the sequence of the first 7 generations from Adam and their original Hebrew meanings and how they relate to spelling out the new testament gospel message. Or how the Hebrew terms for torah and Yahweh are integrated in coded form in the first chapters of the torah. Or the numerous prophecies in the o/t pointing to Jesus Christ as the messiah, and the subsequent irony of the rejection of him by the people he chose to work through in order to save all of mankind (which subsequently lays waste to the childlike notion that the jews wrote the bible to control the world, lol).

Now you might say that it is unfair or unreasonable that there is so much complicated coding and interconnected intricacies in the bible that might disclude some from getting to know him through the word, but I know plenty of "meek" who "get the gospel". Maybe that’s why he chose the phrase “the meek shall inherit the earth”. I don’t know for certain, but alongside intellectual giants, there are many simple folk who have met Jesus Christ and accept the truth about him . They don't need the hard proofs. But for those who do, well that’s where the complexity of the bible comes in....for people perhaps like you. The proofs are there if you want (or really need) to see them (and want to approach it from an intellectual and factual angle). If you don't, you won't, and I wouldn't pretend to comfort you that that is all part of God's plan. That is the condition of your heart and will ultimately result in your own accountability to him, which comes right back to what he has revealed about that reality. He owns it, not us.

For one who promotes how large and beyond comprehension God is, I would encourage you to put down your own preconceptions and hang ups about some of the things you obviously don't 'get' about how God is choosing to deal with us (specifically some of his traits revealed within the o/t, which admittedly at first glance seem hard to grasp) and look deeper into the message to validate it's authenticity. I think should you do this, you will truly realize that God is much larger and complex than even you give him credit for.

Peace, Bb

[Awoke]

Wow, BB. I have to say that I think that is the best post I have seen you write in a long time. Amazing.

I would suggest to the other forum members that you do not breeze over that post. I would suggest reading it thoroughly.

[sirgonzo420]

that's pretty much where i am.

i am certain that God exists, and am content to leave it at that. not because of something i read, because of something that happened. no faith needed or involved.

i don't believe that God loves us - or hates us, or that there is (or is not) an after-existence.

i do notice that many human beings abhor uncertainty, that they want ANSWERS, especially comforting answers.

"God loves me, I'm gonna go to Heaven" ... i suppose that's comforting, if you can convince yourself that it is the case.


i have had the similar conversation repeatedly with both Muslims & Christians. the concept is similar ... accept Mohammed (or Jesus) as your Savior, you go to Heaven.

Muslims usually revere both Jesus and Mohammed, Christians don't wanna hear NOTHIN about Mohammed ... usually.


i apologize if anything i say is offensive to our Christian members. or our Muslim members, if we have any.

We seem to be pretty close to being on the same page.

[sirgonzo420]

SirGonz...with all due respect and sincerity, you have created your own comprehension of who God is.

True. That comprehension is based on my experiences as a part of, and within God's Creation.


Your rebuttal will likely be the same that you have iterated in the past that man wrote the bible and is thus a fabrication. But in contrast to your own admission to the awesomeness and in-exhaustive complexity and in-comprehensiveness of God, you discount that he could use man, the image he claims to be formed after his same sort, to relay a message to same. You're partly right regarding my rebuttal; the bible was written by men...however, I do *not* discount that God could use Man to relay a message back to Man. However, I do not believe that the bible is God's only form of communication. God communicates with Man constantly, through all means and methods. I don't think, however, that God's message could be transmitted to us perfectly without any distortion or loss of meaning. God is too High to effectively and *perfectly* communicate with Man - even the bible says as much, which is why God went through the burning bush to communicate with Moses. It's why God used angels as intermediary agents. It's why no one can look at the face of God.

Man's circuit cannot handle God's unbridled electricity.



In addition, you fail to see that this (his word given to us) is the post on which he stakes his claims and authenticates his conveyed truth. This is only the commonness of sense that God would only expect us to believe his word because it is, simply, believable and verifiable. The word is the map. The map can be believed because the signposts match the markings on the map.I think sometimes, signposts are put there retroactively to match the map...



Tying back to the first point, being that you have created your own image of God, that is no new trick. Welcome to the biggest club in the history of man.That's what religion is all about - molding the Divine to fit in our heads. I try to "mold my mind" instead, and to see God as He is, to the best of my ability.


Regardless of what you have convinced yourself of or comforted yourself about, there is more truth in one psalm of the bible than there is in your lifetime of developing a philosophy of what truth is.With this I shall have to disagree. Truth is everywhere. Why do you consider the bible essentially "condensed truth" while ignoring the rest of Creation?

Regardless of what you have convinced *yourself* of or comforted *yourself* about, there is no more truth in any psalm than there has been in my life. You may have read all the psalms, but you have not lived my life, and so I do not feel you are qualified to make that statement.

By the way, when you tout that there is more truth in one psalm of the bible, are you referring to an english (mis)translation, or are you at least referring to the real, original text?


The Word is a message and when sought out, one will see that it is from the final point of view. There is more than enough truth and insight in that message to decode it's authenticity, should one want to do so.

Some of the things G2Rad brought up in the past eluded to these coded messages, such as the encampment formation in 1 and 2 numbers. Another might be the sequence of the first 7 generations from Adam and their original Hebrew meanings and how they relate to spelling out the new testament gospel message. Or how the Hebrew terms for torah and Yahweh are integrated in coded form in the first chapters of the torah. Or the numerous prophecies in the o/t pointing to Jesus Christ as the messiah, and the subsequent irony of the rejection of him by the people he chose to work through in order to save all of mankind (which subsequently lays waste to the childlike notion that the jews wrote the bible to control the world, lol).Yes, there are many little hidden "easter eggs" in the bible, and I find them interesting and still study them from time to time at this point in my life.

Interesting bits of the bible notwithstanding, Jesus has still not descended from the Heavens to enter my heart and bestow upon me Graceful Salvation. I cannot lie to myself. I have been open and remain open to Christ, but I cannot pretend to be saved.

If I am meant to be "saved", then why not a Saul-on-the-road-to-Damascus moment? Why doesn't God work like that anymore? Why must people first seek salvation and suspend any disbelief before being welcomed into the Brotherhood of Christ? Why are there no more Saul-like conversions?


Now you might say that it is unfair or unreasonable that there is so much complicated coding and interconnected intricacies in the bible that might disclude some from getting to know him through the word, but I know plenty of "meek" who "get the gospel". Maybe that’s why he chose the phrase “the meek shall inherit the earth”. I don’t know for certain, but alongside intellectual giants, there are many simple folk who have met Jesus Christ and accept the truth about him . They don't need the hard proofs. But for those who do, well that’s where the complexity of the bible comes in....for people perhaps like you. The proofs are there if you want (or really need) to see them (and want to approach it from an intellectual and factual angle). If you don't, you won't, and I wouldn't pretend to comfort you that that is all part of God's plan. That is the condition of your heart and will ultimately result in your own accountability to him, which comes right back to what he has revealed about that reality. He owns it, not us.
Ever since I was a child, the "christians" I encountered could not offer anything in the way of proof. They even got a little nervous when I'd ask them questions, so not only did they lack proof but their faith was shaky too. I felt bad for causing their faith to tremble, so I decided to find the answers on my own.

Yes, the bible is full of intricacies and complexities, and I appreciate them, but I am still required to seek out "faith" and to WANT to be saved.

I don't WANT to be saved for the sake of salvation. I WANT to be what I am meant to be and do what I am meant to do. If that means I have my Saul moment and attain salvation, then great. If that means I go to the grave being the unsaved being I was created as, and get damned to Hell for it, then great. If neither, that's ok too.

"Thy will be done."

As you said, He owns reality, not us.

Who am I to "choose"? I am merely a pawn in a cosmic chess game. I don't even have any moves to make! I am just a vessel.

The only "faith" that I have, is that the universe will unfold as it should.

Que sera, sera.


For one who promotes how large and beyond comprehension God is, I would encourage you to put down your own preconceptions and hang ups about some of the things you obviously don't 'get' about how God is choosing to deal with us (specifically some of his traits revealed within the o/t, which admittedly at first glance seem hard to grasp) and look deeper into the message to validate it's authenticity. I think should you do this, you will truly realize that God is much larger and complex than even you give him credit for.

Peace, BbI'll keep that in mind. However, my notion of God comes from Him, as does everything else. If He wishes to change my view of Him, that's His prerogative.

Even though I stopped seeing it as a doorway to salvation when I was about 13 or 14, I still read and study the bible in english as well as the original tongues more than anyone else I know personally, christian or not.

A while ago I got my first copy of Strong's Concordance, and was just in awe at what an awesome tool it is. I puzzle even myself as to why I have an affinity with the bible, given that I am not saved, am not attempting salvation, and don't believe every word of the texts.

Maybe one day I'll have a major revelation. But if I did, it would have to be authentic, and not something I subconsciously created for myself, as the case seems to be with some others.

For now, I remain a sort of gnostic-agnostic christian-bodhisattva.

lol

[gunDriller]

well, it looks like, since the 8 year old Jewish boy was dismembered ... he will certainly be remembered.

sort of like a Jewish version of St. Simon of Trent (2 year old boy in Europe who was kidnapped by rabbi's for a Passover ritual.)

http://www.stsimonoftrent.com/

well, look at that !

someone has scrubbed the history of St. Simon off the web !

that used to be a COMPLETE HISTORICAL website ?

who has scrubbed St. Simon's story ?



http://whois.domaintools.com/stsimonoftrent.com

"Domain name: stsimonoftrent.com

Administrative Contact:
BCB
David Hobson ()
+1.8886654999
Fax:
4420 Valley View Rd
Edina, MN 55424
US

Technical Contact:
BCB
David Hobson ()
+1.8886654999
Fax:
4420 Valley View Rd
Edina, MN 55424
US"

[sirgonzo420]

oh what the hell

bump for the interesting philo-theo-sophy discussion!


:D

[Spectrism]

Awoke? if I could take a "thank you" AWAY FROM YOU FOR SAYING THAT I would........think of how many Palestinian kids those bastards have killed.

Ponce... you say "so what"???? Please tell me I am misunderstanding what you wrote.

I just noticed how old this thread is. Anyway, clear this up for me Ponce... ASAP.

[Spectrism]

When I was a child, I appealed to Christ to "save" me from sin and eternal damnation. To date, Christ has not answered the call.

I cannot say that I "believe Jesus Christ is not the Son of God the Father and Creator, made flesh" - I don't hold much of an opinion on that. I have never denied Christ. If anything, Christ denied me!

Although if Christ was Divine, why did he say this?:

He should have been on the same page as God the Father, correct?

"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" is something I used to wonder as a child...

You are missing the RICH meanings of what happened! Without faith, you cannot see the truth. Faith comes from hearing of His word. If you value your own "truths' more than THE truth, you cannot hear.

The Messiah called himself "son of man". He did not tout that He was God-incarnate. No. He emptied Himself of His glory to dwell as man with men. He consigned Himself to die. That was his mission. He had many prophecies to fulfill and He clued us in when He did them.

Here is one of them:
Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

He allowed himself to be tortured for our sakes and become the shameful one on the cross.



As far as I know, both sayings are accepted as being words of Jesus.

The aramaic phrase Eli Eli lama sabacthani?" is possibly an allusion to Psalms 22.

My point was, why did Christ seem to be momentarily at odds with God the Father's Plan?

I make the assumption that if *I* were Christ, I would take my lot and bear my burden without crying out.

Not at odds in the least. He showed us the horrible price that he knew he would pay. His separation from the Father in death was worse than any torture we could imagine. He took the punishment which was greater than all of us being separated from God forever.




You're right; Christ wasn't at odds with God's Plan. He couldn't have been anyway... the plan is comprehensive.
True enough...

It looks like you had it figured out before I read this. The bible has an intricate network of promises and fulfillments... prophecies and fulfillmets. The exciting part for us is that we are very close to the last promises to be fulfilled. Those who neglect to accept the best gift in the universe will be crying over their loss forever.

[sirgonzo420]

You are missing the RICH meanings of what happened! Without faith, you cannot see the truth. Faith comes from hearing of His word. If you value your own "truths' more than THE truth, you cannot hear.

The Messiah called himself "son of man". He did not tout that He was God-incarnate. No. He emptied Himself of His glory to dwell as man with men. He consigned Himself to die. That was his mission. He had many prophecies to fulfill and He clued us in when He did them.

Here is one of them:
Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
Psa 22:3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

He allowed himself to be tortured for our sakes and become the shameful one on the cross.




Not at odds in the least. He showed us the horrible price that he knew he would pay. His separation from the Father in death was worse than any torture we could imagine. He took the punishment which was greater than all of us being separated from God forever.





It looks like you had it figured out before I read this. The bible has an intricate network of promises and fulfillments... prophecies and fulfillmets. The exciting part for us is that we are very close to the last promises to be fulfilled. Those who neglect to accept the best gift in the universe will be crying over their loss forever.

We are about as close to being on the same page as we can be without divine intervention.

Maybe one day I'll be "saved" but really, it's not up to me.

If a Saul-on-the-road-to-Damascus moment happens to me, I'll be sure to let you all know.


EDIT: in reading this post, I noticed that it could be construed as sarcastic. I was being serious though.

[sirgonzo420]

Awoke linked to this thread the other day, so I figured I'd give it a bump.

:)

[Awoke]

I would have linked only to a specific part of a specific post, to reinforce a point I was trying to make in a different thread.