Raw milk/cheese sellers raided, busted for 'conspiracy' to sell raw dairy products

[midnight rambler]

Failed and $120K bond set for selling raw milk and cheese. Holy shit.

http://www.infowars.com/raw-food-raid-armed-agents-bust-raw-milk-cheese-sellers/

[Dogman]

Failed and $120K bond set for selling raw milk and cheese. Holy shit.

http://www.infowars.com/raw-food-raid-armed-agents-bust-raw-milk-cheese-sellers/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5zPhhNUakc


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5zPhhNUakc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifvp3Fxi7Uo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifvp3Fxi7Uo

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

Invading private property with guns drawn for selling raw milk to willing and consenting customers is some fucking bullshit.

[Joe King]

Invading private property with guns drawn for selling raw milk to willing and consenting customers is some fucking bullshit.

The "guns drawn" part is waaaay overkill, but the root of the problem is that it's impossible to source raw milk within the regulated system that both the buyer and seller have previously given their consent to be bound by.

It's kinda like agreeing that you owe taxes, but then trying to evade them. Can't have it both ways.

[palani]

The criminal part is "selling". Donating or bartering might be tolerated.

As to the defense to selling raw milk, all food and drug laws are written based upon man is an animal ("man or other animal"). These "laws" come with an automatic 1st amendment religious exemption.

[Joe King]

As long as your religious exemption is recognized by them.

[palani]

As long as your religious exemption is recognized by them.

Many religious principles are recognized but never stated. There are also many presumptions that are never stated and hundreds of mistakes that might be made but the real crime is not the consumption or the offering for sale but the sale itself. The currency establishes the lawform. Barter labor or something you created and the real cause and nature of the action is eliminated.

[Joe King]

That still doesn't mean the feds will acknowledge your religion.

I seem to recall reading that if yours wan't one recognized by them as of a certain date, it doesn't apply as an exemption for 1st Amendment purposes. That date was sometime in 1956 I believe.

That's not to say you aren't free to believe whatever you want, but rather it's not going to get you an exemption from them.

[palani]

Leviticus 19:33
33 “Do not take advantage of foreigners who live among you in your land.

Read this passage carefully. While foreigners get a free pass domestics (citizens) get screwed to the wall at every chance.

[Joe King]

There is no blanket exemption. You fight for everything. Anything you receive for free is not worth the price. Speaking personally I also believe a good defense involves a certain degree of offensive action as well.

For officially recognized religions there are.
As example, how do you think those practicing Islam were exempted from Obama-care right from the get go? Or the Amish exempt from SS?

It's because the fed gov officially recognizes them.



That's not to say you couldn't fight it through the Courts and ultimately win, you just would have to fight for it as you say.

[palani]

Or the Amish exempt from SS? Several Amish I talked to have SSNs.

For that matter show me where YOU are required to have a SSN. There is no such regulation enacted.

[Joe King]

I'm saying they have an automatic exemption if they want it.

As for everyone else, yes, I agree that it is entered into by consent, but the gov today acts as though everyone has one.

[palani]

As for everyone else, yes, I agree that it is entered into by consent, but the gov today acts as though everyone has one.

When it comes to religion the gov acts as if you have NONE until you break this presumption. Again, if you use FRNs it doesn't matter what religion you profess because you just adapted the religion of the Federal Reserve by using their credit. Honest weights and measures are not a part of a paper currency and you become part and parcel of the fraud (oops.... material misrepresentation of FACT) that is the Federal Reserve.

[Joe King]

When it comes to religion the gov acts as if you have NONE until you break this presumption.I agree. it has to be claimed.

Again, if you use FRNs it doesn't matter what religion you profess because you just adapted the religion of the Federal Reserve by using their credit. Honest weights and measures are not a part of a paper currency and you become part and parcel of the fraud (oops.... material misrepresentation of FACT) that is the Federal Reserve.

So how do those practicing Islam get exempted from Obamacare? Don't they use FRNs too?



I thought it was because of Title 26 1402g


(g) Members of certain religious faiths
(1) Exemption
Any individual may file an application (in such form and
manner, and with such official, as may be prescribed by
regulations under this chapter) for an exemption from the tax
imposed by this chapter if he is a member of a recognized
religious sect or division thereof and is an adherent of
established tenets or teachings of such sect or division by
reason of which he is conscientiously opposed to acceptance of
the benefits of any private or public insurance which makes
payments in the event of death, disability, old-age, or
retirement or makes payments toward the cost of, or provides
services for, medical care (including the benefits of any
insurance system established by the Social Security Act). Such
exemption may be granted only if the application contains or is
accompanied by -
(A) such evidence of such individual's membership in, and
adherence to the tenets or teachings of, the sect or division
thereof as the Secretary may require for purposes of
determining such individual's compliance with the preceding
sentence, and
(B) his waiver of all benefits and other payments under
titles II and XVIII of the Social Security Act on the basis of
his wages and self-employment income as well as all such
benefits and other payments to him on the basis of the wages
and self-employment income of any other person,
and only if the Commissioner of Social Security finds that -
(C) such sect or division thereof has the established tenets
or teachings referred to in the preceding sentence,
(D) it is the practice, and has been for a period of time
which he deems to be substantial, for members of such sect or
division thereof to make provision for their dependent members
which in his judgment is reasonable in view of their general
level of living, and
(E) such sect or division thereof has been in existence at
all times since December 31, 1950.


If the religion you claim hasn't been in existence since that date, you'd have to fight in Court to get the fed gov to recognize your claim.
...but in the case of Islam you wouldn't, as it's been in existence since before that date.


When I said 1956 earlier, I was going from memory. It was 1950

[palani]

I thought it was because of Title 26 1402g


Beats me. I can't claim to be familiar with foreign laws.

[Joe King]

Right....but the people in question who were selling/buying the raw milk, are, correct?
ie they failed to source their goods from within the regulated system they consented to being a part of.

[palani]

Right....but the people in question who were selling/buying the raw milk, are, correct?

Are familiar with foreign laws? I doubt it. If it is domestic law (YOUR law) then you obey it explicitly word for word item by item. Ignorance is not an excuse. With foreign law ignorance is considered to be ignorance of a FACT and is not criminal. You make yourself liable for a LOT of laws by claiming to have this or that status.

[Joe King]

....and those people claimed that status, right? The sellers, I mean.

[palani]

....and those people claimed that status, right? The sellers, I mean.

Put it this way. If a guy in uniform shows up and states that he is Officer Joe Schmoe and you call him "officer" then you have accepted his status and YOU have been deposed (knocked off your throne).

[Joe King]

I'll bet the people running the store did that.

[iOWNme]

There can be absolutely no question without a doubt as to who the REAL criminals are in reality. There can be no doubt as to who commits the most crime, the most violent crime and the most lucrative crimes.

Without a doubt, it is Government who is the criminal.

[palani]

I'll bet the people running the store did that.

No doubt about it, it is hard to negotiate when being threatened.

[Joe King]

They also gave prior consent if they were licensed and selling to the general public.
ie they agreed to source their product from within the regulated system. Raw milk cannot be obtained retail within the regulated system.

[palani]

They also gave prior consent if they were licensed and selling to the general public.
ie they agreed to source their product from within the regulated system. Raw milk cannot be obtained retail within the regulated system.

True. Licenses represent titles of nobility ... privileges. They also represent agreement (contract). I try to avoid all contract or licenses with the state. When required to sign anything my signature looks like "R.vi Et Armis"

R. Rex the king
vi Et Armis ... under force and arms

[Joe King]

Well, the OP wasn't about you selling milk, but rather others who were card carrying, consenting members of the govs civil state.

As I said before, it'a akin to declaring that you do, in fact, owe taxes.....but then trying to evade them.
ie they agreed to the rules of selling food to the general public, but then chose not to abide by those rules.

It's just like the guy who agrees to the HOA and after he moves in, breaks the rules and wonders why they come after him.

[palani]

It's just like the guy who agrees to the HOA and after he moves in, breaks the rules and wonders why they come after him.

Contracts are dynamic. They move. They aren't cast in stone for eternity.

The question is "How did you get attached to my back?" and "What does it take to get rid of you?"

Now that I have defined the question the answers can be quite interesting.

[Joe King]

I agree with your premise, but what you are talking about doesn't really apply to the people in question in the OP.

Unless they choose to take such action as to correct what they themselves have done.....but I don't think they have, nor do I think that they even want to.

What I think, is that they did whatever they thought they had to do in order to get approval and then violated the terms of that approval.

[palani]

What I think, is that they did whatever they thought they had to do in order to get approval and then violated the terms of that approval. Hard to pin down without FACTS.

[Joe King]

I know that every store I've seen has their gov tags tacked to the wall.

Hadn't seen one yet that didn't.

[palani]

I know that every store I've seen has their gov tags tacked to the wall.

Hadn't seen one yet that didn't.

That wasn't the case in 1931

http://www.history.iastate.edu/agprimer/Page24.html


Farmers in Cedar County, Iowa, were the first to fight this new law. At first,
they attempted to fight the law through legal means. One farmer ran for the
state legislature on the single issue of the legality of testing. Others
petitioned through the courts to stop testing until they understood how the
law and the test worked. In the early spring of 1931, over one thousand
farmers gathered in Des Moines to march in protest against the law at the
state capital, where they demanded a meeting with the Governor and for the
legislature to repeal the testing laws. The legislature listened to their
demands, and the governor agreed to meet at a later date, however the
legislature did not repeal the law.

In March of 1931, state veterinarians notified a group of farmers in Cedar
County that their cows must be ready for inspection in two weeks. When the
day came for testing to begin, one farmer was caught with his cows in the
barn, and could not avoid having them tested. By the time the veterinarians
got to the next farm, however, more than 500 angry farmers waited for them,
and the cattle on that farm could not be tested. This pattern continued for
several weeks until testing ended in the county.

In September testing began again. On September 21, two veterinarians
arrived at the farm of Jake Lenker, guarded by sixty-five deputies. They met
another group of 500 farmers on the farm, whose aim was to again prevent
testing. When a deputy made threats if the group did not move, violence
finally erupted. Farmers used clubs, rocks, and rotten eggs against the
deputies, and filled the state car with mud. As the deputies and veterinarians
retreated, a call was placed to Iowa's Governor, Dan Turner, who was in
Washington, D. C., for a conference with President Hoover. When informed of
the events of the day, Governor Turner ordered that the Iowa National Guard
be sent to Cedar County to enforce testing. The next day, 1800 soldiers
arrived in Tipton, the county seat of Cedar County, in order to protect state
veterinarians and prevent further action by the farmers. Machine guns were
placed at cross roads, and soldiers enforced state law with bayonets.

[Joe King]

The regulated system in question didn't exist then.

In 1931 the gov hadn't yet created all the alphabet-soup agencies because it didn't have the power to do so at that time.

[palani]

it didn't have the power to do so at that time.

Machine guns on crossroads and fixed bayonets say they THOUGHT they had the power.

The Wallace family practically set up the USDA and still run Wallaces Farmer magazine in the state. Their politics is entirely communist.

[Joe King]

That referred to State law. The regs they're enforcing now get their teeth via the federal gov.

Kinda like how a persons federal tax liability is what causes State tax liability.
ie the local laws being enforced in the OP have their roots in federal regulations under the FDA



The FDA essentially believes that nobody has the right to choose what to eat or drink. You are only "allowed" to eat or drink what the FDA gives you permission to. There is no inherent right or God-given right to consume any foods from nature without the FDA's consent.
http://www.naturalnews.com/028757_raw_milk_FDA.html


All they are doing is regulating their creation that the people in the OP claim to be.

[palani]

That referred to State law. The regs they're enforcing now get their teeth via the federal gov.

Truman merged the state and federal venues on June 25th 1948 in an unconstitutional political act ... easy to mistake what USED to be for what is NOW.

Check 28 USC 70 - 13?

[Joe King]

and that's what the problem is.
ie people not realizing that the "now" they signed-up for is different than what "used" to be.


The same thing applies to our monetary system in that the general population have the idea it still works like it did in 1911

[palani]

and that's what the problem is.
ie people not realizing that the "now" they signed-up for is different than what "used" to be.

You have as much ability to straighten the system out NOW as they did THEN. In fact if you push the system you can get their panties in a wad pretty quickly. A useful way to establish boundaries.

[Joe King]

I agree, but the people in the OP are basicly saying they accept the benefits but don't want to be regulated.

Not that they are trying to extricate themselves from it.

[midnight rambler]

Machine guns were placed at cross roads, and soldiers enforced state law with bayonets.

WTF?!?!?

I think it's safe to safe to say we're beyond that now. The iron fist has such a lovely velvet glove now.

[osoab]

WTF?!?!?

I think it's safe to safe to say we're beyond that now. The iron fist has such a lovely velvet glove now.

I am thinking a dozen swat team members for one guy is about equal to 1800 troops for 500 farmers.

[midnight rambler]

I am thinking a dozen swat team members for one guy is about equal to 1800 troops for 500 farmers.

I think your math is off.

1800/500= 3.6 troops with bolt action rifles (mainly) per farmer
one swat team/a handful of people selling (gasp!) raw diary products = 5+ militarized policy-men (all with full auto weapons) per infidel

[Hatha Sunahara]

The FDA essentially believes that nobody has the right to choose what to eat or drink. You are only "allowed" to eat or drink what the FDA gives you permission to. There is no inherent right or God-given right to consume any foods from nature without the FDA's consent.
http://www.naturalnews.com/028757_raw_milk_FDA.html


I have a T shirt that says Land of the Free. Why do I feel like I'm livestock?


Hatha

[keehah]

They also gave prior consent if they were licensed and selling to the general public.
ie they agreed to source their product from within the regulated system. Raw milk cannot be obtained retail within the regulated system.
Some claim a conspiracy of conveniently wrongs Joe.

BREAKING: FEDS Raid Private Food Co-Op… California (http://theconservativetreehouse.wordpress.com/2011/08/03/breaking-feds-raid-private-food-co-op-california/)

Law enforcement demanded that all customers (members) of the store vacate the premises, then they demanded to know how much cash James had at the store. When James explained the amount of cash he had at the store — which is used to purchase product for selling there — agents demanded to know why he had such an amount of cash and where it came from.

James was handcuffed, was NEVER read his rights and was stuffed into an UNMARKED car. While agents said they would leave behind a warrant, no one has yet had any opportunity to even see if such a warrant exists or if it is a complete warrant.

Are you guys already at the point rogue bandit bands of Fed security forces shake people and businesses down?

But the situation is even worse than that. They also have an agenda to support multinational corporation poison food, over local economy healthy food.

[Joe King]

I'm not saying that I agree with the actions taken, because I don't.
What I am saying is that I happen to understand why they make such a big deal over selling raw milk to the public.

If you want to fix a problem, it's always best to understand the mechanics of said problem so that you may then apply an effective treatment.
Otherwise you run around grasping at straws that may or may not be the root of the problem.

As far as them freaking out over how much "money" they had on-hand, you and I both know that the people have allowed the gov to look at anyone with a large amount of cash as possibly being a criminal.
...and who are the "you guys" you are talking about? I'm an individual.

[keehah]

...and who are the "you guys" you are talking about? I'm an individual.
I was talking about members living in the United States of America, what was on your mind?

The scene at the front door today after the FDA started destroying the food inside:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7N7wxqcipw&feature=player_embedded

[midnight rambler]

I was talking about members living in the United States of America, what was on your mind?

The scene at the front door today after the FDA started destroying the food inside:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7N7wxqcipw&feature=player_embedded

"I'm just doing my job, that's all I can tell you." --LAPD policy-man Shields

[Joe King]

I was talking about members living in the United States of America, what was on your mind?You quoted me, but I wasn't sure what you meant, so I asked.


The scene at the front door today after the FDA started destroying the food inside:

Too bad those people don't understand why, or that the ones doing it won't give them the answer they seek.
It's all about their not wanting to comply with the regulated system they signed up to be a part of.
ie the people have consented to allowing the FDA to make certain decisions for them.

[Bigjon]

typical shit from sliverjim, Joe tells the truth and Jim dishes up some shit. Nothing logical just shit.

There is a way to leave this system, but Jim maybe isn't aware of it.

Registered voter... check, social (in)security... check, Drivers License...check...all of us with those credentials are US citizens and obliged to follow the federal rules, because we have a contract with the feds.

http://www.notmygovernment.us/home/

[Awoke]

Palani, I could learn so much from you if you could just dumb things down enough for me.

Legal talk gets my head spinning.

[palani]

Legal talk gets my head spinning.
Legal talk is intended to be misunderstood because if you truly understood it you would avoid it like herpes and the plague. A lawful perspective (things not prohibited) is easier to live with.

You enter into legal agreements by your consent. As government never gives full disclosure I have come to the conclusion the only way to avoid unconscionable contracts is to avoid them entirely. The UCC will tell you that you can accompany your signature with "Without prejudice" to avoid having your signature misconstrued as a consensual contract but the state seems to think they are outside the UCC and will not give you this option. Therefore "vi et armis" incorporated into the signature pretty much tells the entire story without a direct controntation with the agent currently in your face. They stand a better chance of figuring it out when you are out of bullet range and you inform them by letter that you would rather reject their offer.

[Awoke]

Would "vi et armis" be applicable under Canadian/British laws and policies in your opinion?

EDIT to add that I just looked up the wiki interpolation of vi et armis, and as far as I understand it, it is akin to signing something but also stating "I have signed this under duress", no?

[palani]

Would "vi et armis" be applicable under Canadian/British laws and policies in your opinion?

Most assuredly so. vi et armis is latin for "under force and arms" and applies to both common law and civil law countries.

To be fair you might have to ask a few questions first. For example, a traffic stop, you ask the armed agent whether he is a good shot with his weapon. If he responds that he is then you might interpet his answer for the benefit of a judicial actor as "Your honor, he told me he was a trained killer."

Also it would be better to incorporate the phrase INTO your signature AS your signature. Road agents have been told to not allow additional conditions to their agreements. Most people scrawl a signature anyway so you will most probably get to leave without the substitution being noted.

[Awoke]

Thanks very much Palani.

[Santa]

I'm having one of those, Hmmmmmm thoughts.

Perhaps the hidden(occult) knowledge the Pharisee's brought back from Babylon was the practice of "legalese" that they ritualized and used as the foundation of a new, more modernized humanistic religion. A religion now known as LAW. ;D

Most people hear it as gibberish. Lol... How Biblical and historically apropos to think that the practice of ritualized gibberish or "legalese" began under the shadow of the Tower of Babel. ;)

Legalese is like "slight of tongue." It's verbal trickery the same way a magician performs slight of hand.

"Devil speak with forked tongue." Early Khazar's were known as the "snake people."

Think of the black robed Judiciary as modern day Magi
who perform occult rituals designed to control the herd
in an incomprehensible yet ever fluid pseudo language that not even its own practitioners understand.

Legalese and its consequences are absolutely riddled in occult symbolism.

Anyway, hmmmmmmmmm... :-\

[Joe King]

Legal talk is intended to be misunderstood because if you truly understood it you would avoid it like herpes and the plague. A lawful perspective (things not prohibited) is easier to live with.

You enter into legal agreements by your consent. As government never gives full disclosure I have come to the conclusion the only way to avoid unconscionable contracts is to avoid them entirely. The UCC will tell you that you can accompany your signature with "Without prejudice" to avoid having your signature misconstrued as a consensual contract but the state seems to think they are outside the UCC and will not give you this option. Therefore "vi et armis" incorporated into the signature pretty much tells the entire story without a direct controntation with the agent currently in your face. They stand a better chance of figuring it out when you are out of bullet range and you inform them by letter that you would rather reject their offer.

How dare you tell people that the circumstances they find themselves in and then complain so much about, are of their own making.
People are but victims of brainwashing and are "made" to do these things. They had no other choice in the matter but to go along in order to get along.




BTW, in case you couldn't tell, that was sarcasm. lol

[Joe King]

given to you by a true government shill that loves to fuck the American People, good guy.

you will perish in you know where.

Hope for you and the best

I'd say that the American people have mostly done that to themselves.
...and you seem to be a good example of that if you think that anyone who understands how it works can only be a gov agent.

Perhaps if you spent as much time actually reading the law and studying it as you do denigrating those you disagree with, maybe you'd understand it too.
...and then we could have an actual discussion on something like Article 1 Section 8

lol

[Santa]

I'd say that the American people have mostly done that to themselves."I just want to make people happy. That's just what I do."

http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac358/jackconrad/junk/6b11de33.jpg

[Joe King]

Sorry, but I don't support what he did. So try try again, ok? lol

People should live until it's their time to go. It's the natural way.


But I still feel that in life, people are mostly a victim only of themselves.
ie knowledge really will set you free. People need to get them some.

[Bigjon]

THE RAWESOME FOODS RAID



WHY IT REALLY TOOK PLACE



AUGUST 4, 2011. Most of you know by now that multiple agencies ofthe federal government raided Rawesome Foods yesterday in Venice, California.FDA, CDC, Dept. of Agriculture-along with LA County Sheriffs. Armed sheriffs.



The whole story, and vital updates, can be found at www.naturalnews.com (http://www.naturalnews.com/)



According to reports, the terms of the warrant were ignored and,instead of taking samples of raw milk and cheese for lab analysis, the entireinventory of Rawesome was taken or destroyed.



This is all about a government attack against selling rawunpasteurized milk. The conflict has been going on for at least 60 years.



Three people were arrested and taken to jail in the raid. Theirbail is high, much higher than you would expect.



All records and computers of Rawesome were also seized.



This raid is about several things--



The federal government crackdown on food and their need to controlit, which is part of an overall strategy to stamp out the small grower and thesmall farmer, so that all food in this country is produced by mega-agracorporations, and is genetically modified.



The clout of the dairy industry and its lobbyists.



And, because Rawesome is not an ordinary retail outlet, but aPRIVATE buyer's club, whose members agree to operate outside the federalgovernment's rules and regulations on food safety, the club poses a distinctthreat to the government octopus-and not just in the food sector.



ANY private association of citizens which, by virtue of itsinternal agreements, honors CONTRACT above LICENSE, has found its way back tothe original intent of the Republic.



And as far as the government is concerned, that must not beallowed to stand.



You see, if you and I sign a contract which permits us to dealwith each other in our own chosen way, with no reference to government, we areDECENTRALIZING. This is the point.



Government, on the other hand, wants to control and issue licensesgiving conditional rights to us, for every activity under the sun.



You and I, for instance, can agree to "practicemedicine" with each other. We can a sign a contract to that effect. Bythat contract, you can treat my lower back with a medicine you invent-amedicine the FDA has not certified (licensed). We have found a way around theregulators and the lawmakers. And we are responsible. There will be no lawsuits and no complaints, no matter what the outcome.



And that way is at the heart of what the Republic IS. Or was,until the feds decided, long ago, that control was the objective of society.



Were hundreds of thousands of private "clubs" to springup in the US, along many lines, the decentralization of power and the takingback of individual responsibility would direct a lethal effect against federalpower.



This is why Rawesome was raided in such an overwhelming andunconscionable way yesterday.



The government doesn't want you or I to be responsible for our ownchoices and decisions. They know what lies ahead on that road. The dawning of anew day, in which the tonnage of regulations designed to ensnare us in the webis irrelevant, is itself a lie, is seen as an illusion and nothing more.



We would be able, along many fronts, to opt out of the system.



Private contracts assume and breed self-responsibility.



The system of government-issued licenses breeds dependence.



Government and their media allies WANT YOU TO THINK THAT THE VERYIDEA OF PRIVATE CITIZENS MAKING THEIR OWN CONTRACTS AND AGREEMENTS WITH EACHOTHER-OUTSIDE THE BOUNDARIES OF GOVERNMENT RULES AND REGULATIONS-IS ABSURD,DANGEROUS, AND A SIGN OF LOATHSOME PRIDE.



And you know what? They're succeeding.



The millions of little dependent androids they're creating are alltoo willing to meddle, snitch, and obey "the boss."



But the truth is, if the members of the Rawesome Buyer's Club wantto purchase and drink raw milk, and don't care to consult or knuckle under tofederal rules on the subject, that is their private right. They don't wantgovernment "protection." They have their own point of view. If otherpeople want to buy pasteurized milk with growth hormones, fine. Rawesome isdoing something else.



The government sees this as a threat that could undermine itsdrooling need for control.



Right now, the raid on Rawesome is taking place under the auspicesof the FDA, CDC, and the US Dept. of Agriculture. I hope you understand these threeagencies are part of the Executive Branch of the federal government. And thatmeans the White House. And that means the president. For any of you who maythink Barack Obama is the incarnation of The Second Coming, I suggest you takea step back. Decide whether your newfound religious conviction exonerates thepresident who, whether he knew about the raid before it happened, or only knowsabout it now, has the power to let it stand or make it go away. In this case,YES WE CAN means "yes, we can put a boot on your head and cancel yourfreedom to eat the food of your choice-even though we have that little showcaseorganic garden on the lawn of the White House."



Under Obama, the power and range and influence of geneticallymodified food is accelerating. That is what HIS new day looks like. How do youlike it?



Take a moment, and separate whatever opinion you may have aboutthe Rawesome buyer's club members, and their practices-separate that from theirRIGHT to form their own association with their own objectives. Decide aboutthat bigger picture. Because what you decide and what action you take based onit have a lot to do with what the future is going to look like.



JON RAPPOPORT

www.nomorefakenews.com (http://www.nomorefakenews.com/)

qjrconsultng@gmail.com (qjrconsultng@gmail.com)

[Joe King]

The government doesn't want you or I to be responsible for our own choices and decisions.

When people voluntarily signed up to be a part of the civil-state created by the fed gov, they delegated to gov the power to make certain decisions for them. Whether you can buy raw milk or not, was one of those decisions.
What kinds of contracts you can enter into is another. Certain contracts are void upon their inception no matter how you might word them.


Do I agree with the fed govs tactics? No, not at all.
...but the bottom line is that these people agreed to one thing, but then act as though what they agreed to doesn't apply

It's the same as agreeing that you owe a tax, but then trying to evade having to pay it. Both are highly illegal.

[Bigjon]

When people voluntarily signed up to be a part of the civil-state created by the fed gov, they delegated to gov the power to make certain decisions for them. Whether you can buy raw milk or not, was one of those decisions.
What kinds of contracts you can enter into is another. Certain contracts are void upon their inception no matter how you might word them.


Do I agree with the fed govs tactics? No, not at all.
...but the bottom line is that these people agreed to one thing, but then act as though what they agreed to doesn't apply

It's the same as agreeing that you owe a tax, but then trying to evade having to pay it. Both are highly illegal.

Show us the law, not just your bullshit opinion.

[Joe King]

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?52307-George-Gordon-We-signed-up-for-this-misery&highlight=georgegordon


Listen to at least the first half of the linked mp3 and it's all spelled out for you with Title, Code, Section cited.

Knowledge is power. Claiming victimhood is not.

[basplaer]

They also gave prior consent if they were licensed and selling to the general public.
ie they agreed to source their product from within the regulated system.

I do not know if they were a licensed retail outfit, but they were NOT selling to the general public. If I were to engage in a private trade with another party on this site, that doesn't make me a retailer.


Raw milk cannot be obtained retail within the regulated system.

Yes, it can. See Milk and Milk Products Act of 1947

[Joe King]

Sorry, I should have said for consumers it can't be sourced within the regulated system.



I do not know if they were a licensed retail outfit, but they were NOT selling to the general public. If I were to engage in a private trade with another party on this site, that doesn't make me a retailer.


It doesn't matter. The people in question are consenting members of the system that created said regulations against the selling for consumption, of raw milk.

If you don't want to be party to the rules, don't be party to the system that created the rules. The choice is yours.

[palani]

http://adask.wordpress.com/radio/

Wednesday program with Dennis Craig. In depth about the consequences of consent in a "political state of affairs". Will probably change to another program in several days.

[basplaer]

The people in question are consenting members of the system

How so?

[Joe King]

Listen to the mp3 in my link for the news. It's all spelled out in the first half how people consented to be regulated.

Take a listen to what Palani linked to, too.

[basplaer]

Listen to the mp3 in my link for the news. It's all spelled out in the first half how people consented to be regulated.

Take a listen to what Palani linked to, too.

OK I'm downloading to my mp3 device now. But I'm failing to see how the people, acting within the system, abiding by the system's governing documents- in this case the milk act- are acting outside the bounds specified in said document. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?

[Joe King]

Well, they were obviously enforcing FDA regulations. Otherwise they wouldn't have been there at all.


Edited to add:

But I'm failing to see how the people, acting within the system, abiding by the system's governing documents- in this case the milk act- are acting outside the bounds specified in said document. Maybe I'm missing something obvious?

The law you're citing is a State law. The action taken at Rawesome foods was a Federal action, not a State action.
Federal law is superior to State law.

[po boy]

Listen to the mp3 in my link for the news. It's all spelled out in the first half how people consented to be regulated.

Take a listen to what Palani linked to, too.

some information in this thread as well.http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?35783-Video-series-called-Legal-Windmills&

[slvrbugjim]

http://solari.com/blog/?p=13360

UnAnswered Questions About Rawesome Food
Catherine, News & Commentary on August 4, 2011 at 1:08 pm

By Catherine Austin Fitts

Yesterday, Rawesome Foods in Venice, California was raided by a Los Angeles swat team. Several people were arrested.

There are numerous unanswered questions about why.

Nearby, at Whole Foods in Venice it was business as usual. Indeed, having just agreed to “co-exist” with GMO food, they should be enjoying a regulatory honeymoon.

Yesterday, Whole Foods’ stock closed at a price earnings ratio of 34.34X. That means that for every dollar of profit, their stock market value goes up 34.34 times. So $1 of profit on sales generates $34.34 for all investors. If an investor owns 10% of the stock, then each additional dollar in profit will increase their stock position value by $3.43.


[click on the image for a larger version]

This means that if the Rawesome club members switch their purchases to Whole Foods, depending on the amount of sales and relative profit margins, a corporation trading at that multiple should get in increase in profits that translates into as much as a $1-2MM increase in their total stock market value.

This means that for every 100 small businesses you can shut down in your market area across the country, a corporate grocery store trading at that stock multiple can get a pick up of, say, up to $100MM-200MM in stock market value. If you own 10% of the shares, you can enhance investor value by $10-20MM.

What this means is that one way for investors in corporate food companies to ensure healthly stock performance in a recession is to arrange complex laws and regulations and selective enforcement that force the small companies out of business. This will be touted with notions of “helping” the consumer through “food safety.”

They can fund the costs of lobbyists and political donations from their capital gains on their stock — another reason why it is so important to keep the tax rate on capital gains low. Traditional capital gains on real estate and stock is the largest source of political contributions.

Here are reports from Yahoo Finance and from the Whole Foods annual proxy regarding their largest investors:

Top Institutional Holders

[click on the image for a larger version]

Whole Food Market Inc. – Proxy 2011

[click on the image for a larger version]

Interestingly enough, the largest investor in Whole Foods is a private equity group in Los Angeles. Perhaps the Rawesome club members should open up a dialogue with them about how to reengineer the food financial ecosystem and preserve food freedom. With 10% of the stock, the largest investor, and in turn their investors, stand to benefit if the Venice community is afraid to shop outside the corporate model or has no where else to go. Alternatively, if they participate in the early equity in a community venture fund, perhaps they could make more money on a community where small enterprise thrives and people are free to choose the food they prefer.

Leonard Green & Partners, L.P.

It does make you wonder what promises Whole Foods or their investors received in exchange for promoting GMO co-existence.

More on the events at Rawesome tonight on The Solari Report with Sally Fallon of the Weston Price Foundation.

Take Action:

Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund

Solari Report Blog Commentaries:

The Organic Elite Surrenders to Monsanto: What Now?
(28 Jan 11)

Related Reading:

Breaking News: Multi-agency Armed Raid Hits Rawesome Foods, Healthy Family Farms For Selling Raw Milk and Cheese ?Natural News.com (3 Aug 11)

Rawsome Foods Raided AGAIN by SWAT
Food Renegade (3 Aug 11)

Government Agencies Raid Venice Food Club
l. a. activist (10 July 10)

[Joe King]

Nearby, at Whole Foods in Venice it was business as usual. That's probably because they aren't selling raw milk.

Let Whole Foods try selling raw milk and I'd bet they get the same treatment. As over-zealous as that treatment may have been.

[po boy]

There are numerous unanswered questions about why.

Yes like were they selling raw milk for human consumption, did they have a business license, take checks frn credit cards?

Possibly incorporated ,had employees or otherwise engaged in commerce?

Didn't the Amish just get busted for the same thing a month back.

[slvrbugjim]

That's probably because they aren't selling raw milk.

Let Whole Foods try selling raw milk and I'd bet they get the same treatment. As over-zealous as that treatment may have been.

Ya think? Or do you think that the milk industry is controlled and does not want anyone to sell their product that is better but with a shorter shelf life. It is more about profit and less about health, and Whole Foods now sells GMO foods (which I suppose you love perhaps) has become no better than any NYSE Grocery vender.

[basplaer]

The law you're citing is a State law. The action taken at Rawesome foods was a Federal action, not a State action.
Federal law is superior to State law.

Yes, that's true, but the only thing I can find regarding FDA's regulatory authority as it pertains to pasteurized or raw milk is in regards to interstate sale or trade of the poduct...as in they lack standing to regulate in sale or trade solely intrastate. I have more digging to do (including the more esoteric "we asked for it" (not disputing anything I haven't researched)) on the exact regulatory authority granted to the FDA to regulate milk WITHIN the states. The PMO (.gov guidelines) has been adopted by 46 states. California is not one of them. My initial hunch is that they are overstepping their bounds, unless they have documented proof that Rawesome engages in interstate commerce. Maybe they do. Probably they don't and they ae using their bottomless resources to harass, threaten, and destroy a legitimate contract between members of a private club. Among these resources are the SWAT teams already displayed as well as piles of money to settle legal claims years or decades after the club is destroyed. Mission accomplished.

[lapis]

Yes like were they selling raw milk for human consumption, did they have a business license, take checks frn credit cards?

Possibly incorporated ,had employees or otherwise engaged in commerce?

Didn't the Amish just get busted for the same thing a month back.

Rawsome is a private food co-op, which is not open to the public. However, it appears that some of its members sold some sort of temporary pass and dairy products to the general public at some soCal farmer's markets. Here's a copy of the 17-page criminal complaint filed against James Steward, Sharon Palmer and Victoria Bloch:

http://nourishedkitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/filed-HFF-Complaint.pdf

Press release of Rawsome bust from the L.A. District Attorney's office:

"Three Arrested on Charges of Illegally Producing, Selling Unpasteurized Milk (http://da.co.la.ca.us/mr/080311a.htm)"

Despite dragging their feet on the Cargill ground turkey debacle (http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2011%2F08%2 F04%2Fbusiness%2Fcargill-recalls-ground-turkey-linked-to-salmonella-outbreak.html%3F_r%3D1%26hp&h=gAQDixUW3AQAsj9JZzYvdpMlBvUCuXqG2puHYb5DVaIB00Q) , of course the FDA thugs defend their heavy-handed tactics regarding the raid, to which agents from no less than NINE government organizations showed up, including the U.S. Food and Drug Administration; the California Franchise Tax Board; the California Department of Food and Agriculture’s Milk and Dairy Food Safety Branch and the department’s Division of Measurement Standards; the Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office; the Los Angeles County Department of Public Health; the Ventura County Sheriff’s Department, the Ventura County Department of Public Health; the Los Angeles Police Department and the Los Angeles Department of Building and Safety.

"Food safety chief defends raw milk raids (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/nov05election/detail?entry_id=90472)"


Obama food safety chief and former Monsanto lawyer Michael R. Taylor today defended the FDA's sting operations and armed raids against raw milk producers, including Pennsylvania Amish farmer Dan Allgyer, who is facing an injunction for selling milk across state lines. None of Allgyer's milk was contaminated. The agency's actions are likely to put him out of business.

"We believe we're doing our job," Taylor said at a presentation at the Ogilvy Washington public affairs group. He promised to "keep doing our public health job," and described his agency's campaign against raw milk producers as based on a "public health duty" and "statutory directive."

Taylor said he had a "quibble" with the notion that the agency is spending too much of its resources targeting boutique raw milk producers even as huge contamination outbreaks have occurred among large Iowa egg farms and elsewhere.

The FDA is in the midst of writing the critical regulations that will implement the Food Safety Modernization Act Congress passed last year with applause all around from the Obama administration, Democrats and Republicans despite ferocious opposition from small-farm advocates. The sweeping new law gives the agency extraordinary powers to detain foods on farms. It also denies farmers recourse to federal courts.

On July 3, the agency will issue its new rule to detain any food it believes is unsafe, or, more critically, "mislabeled." In Allgyer's case, the entire FDA case rests on a technical violation of a ban on interstate commerce in raw milk and alleged mislabeling.

Before the new law, the FDA could only impound food when it had credible evidence the food was contaminated or posed a public health hazard. The detention powers are part of what Taylor described as a new agency focus on preventing food poisoning outbreaks rather than responding to them after the fact. Taylor described the new law as giving the agency "farm to table" control over food safety.

Taylor outlined an aggressive approach, saying he would seek a "high rate of compliance" with new food safety rules, touted the agency's "whole new inspection and compliance tool kit," including access to farm records, mandatory recall authority, and enforcement actions that can be accomplished administratively, "without having to go to court." He said the agency can now also revoke a farm's mandatory registration (also a new requirement under the law), meaning the FDA can put any farm it finds in violation of any food safety rule out of business.[But of course the Big Food corporations like Cargill will get a free pass despite sickening millions.]

Big new regulations are coming down the pike on produce. Taylor said these would to some extent follow existing industry safety standards, some of which seek an almost sterile farm environment and have reversed many taxpayer-financed farm conservation efforts.


There are many similar co-ops here in soCal, and I think it's time that members stop posting their farmers' information online, and only allow people they know to become new members.

[Joe King]

Yes, that's true, but the only thing I can find regarding FDA's regulatory authority as it pertains to pasteurized or raw milk is in regards to interstate sale or trade of the poduct...as in they lack standing to regulate in sale or trade solely intrastate.
The position the Courts have taken on stuff like this is that because it's a national market, the sale in-state has an effect upon interstate commerce of the same item.
That precident goes waaaay back and was used recently to prosecute state-sanctioned mary-jane growers in CA.

Again, I'm not saying I agree with what they {fed gov} has done in this case, but rather am just trying to help others to understand the mechanism they are using to do what they've done.

Don't you people want to understand the mechanics of how they do what they do?
How can you ever hope to fix anything if you don't see the root of the problem?





I have more digging to do (including the more esoteric "we asked for it" (not disputing anything I haven't researched)) on the exact regulatory authority granted to the FDA to regulate milk WITHIN the states. The PMO (.gov guidelines) has been adopted by 46 states. California is not one of them. My initial hunch is that they are overstepping their bounds, unless they have documented proof that Rawesome engages in interstate commerce. Maybe they do. Probably they don't and they ae using their bottomless resources to harass, threaten, and destroy a legitimate contract between members of a private club. Among these resources are the SWAT teams already displayed as well as piles of money to settle legal claims years or decades after the club is destroyed. Mission accomplished.
Here is how the fed gov thinks they can do what they did.

Controversially, the power of the federal government to regulate interstate commerce granted to it by Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution has been interpreted by the Supreme Court to mean that the feds may regulate nearly anything that has an effect on interstate commerce. In the landmark case of Gonzales v. Raich, the Supreme Court ruled that a woman who grew marijuana plants on her property for her own medical use was participating in “interstate commerce.”

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/RainDog/69

[lapis]

"Legal update on Rawesome arrests over raw milk"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icqPX-QI3vk

Other videos about the raid are to the right. Haven't been able to watch this one, as my internet connection is super-slow.

I don't know if this was mentioned in previous posts, but EVERY SINGLE FOOD ITEM was taken from Rawsome, not just the raw dairy (and all its cash as well). What a scorched earth tactic! They are definitely trying to put them out of business.

[lapis]

"Holding Open the Gate At Rawesome, and Cutting Through the Confusion on Private Food Groups (http://www.thecompletepatient.com/journal/2011/8/4/holding-open-the-gate-at-rawesome-and-cutting-through-the-co.html)"

When you watch the brief video below of the raid yesterday on Rawesome Food Club, resist the inclination to focus on the conversation and shouting happening off to the left. Instead, keep an eye on the guy who keeps appearing on the right. He's the law enforcement agent who's literally closing the gate at Rawesome Food Club in Venice, CA, so no one can see that the agents inside are gathering pretty much all the nutrient-dense food in the two shipping containers that house Rawesome, prior to carting it off.

It's not clear if Rawesome will re-open Saturday as scheduled, and as many members hope, or whether it will be shut down forever. The prosecutor in the arraignment today of two Rawesome associates said the Rawesome site "is supposed to be a vacant lot," since no building permits have been issued. And the judge seemed to be in agreement.

The bigger question is whether that law enforcement agent is figuratively closing the gate on private food clubs in the U.S. as well. The pressure on such associations is certainly intensifying, nearly by the day.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lI1gvPmA_c8&feature=player_embedded

On Thursday, two Rawesome associates, James Stewart and Victoria Bloch Coulter, were arraigned in a Los Angeles court, after having spent more than 24 hours in jail. Coulter's $60,000 bail was eliminated, and she was released on her own recognizance. As for Stewart, his bail was reduced from $123,000 to $30,000, but by the end of Thursday, he still hadn't been released; it's understood that a bail agreement was being drawn up that stipulated as a condition of his release that he not engage in the sale of unpasteurized milk from an un-permitted location--another problem in addition to the vacant lot issue. The judge in the case seemed to have no awareness of the distinction between a public retail business and a private member-only association. (The third person arrested, Sharon Palmer, is in a different jail, and is scheduled to be arraigned Friday.)

And it's there, in the confusion between private and public enterprises, that there's a big problem. Even at that bastion of private enterprise, Forbes, there is much confusion. A blogger there, who criticized the FDA for wasting huge amounts of money and manpower on the raid, then asked: "I still wonder, though, if permits were available, why didn’t Stewart just bite the bullet? It seems easier to go along with bad regulations and fight them in the court of public opinion or at the ballot box rather than simply disregard them and face another raid."

Private groups like Rawesome have sprung up so that people can access nutrient-dense foods that wouldn't otherwise be allowed or be available via the "permitted" public retail food system. While much of the forbidden foods include a wide variety of raw dairy products, there is also the matter of chickens raised on soy-free diets, fermented vegetables, truly pastured eggs, and raw honey, among other products. It can certainly be said that raw dairy products are available in California, but some people want something other than Claravale and Organic Pastures milk--perhaps goat milk or camel milk, or cow's milk from a producer outside California. [Absolutely! Some of the best dairy products come from the Amish on the East Coast.]

Now, if you look through the criminal complaint filed by the L.A. County District Attorney, you find that much of it is devoted to trying to discredit the private association structure established by Rawesome or the apparent CSA established by Sharon Palmer. There is discussion of a $1 "day fee" at one point for one of the undercover agents. There is the suggestion that the $50 annual membership fee for Rawesome is a wink-and-a-nod that leads to the quick hand-over of raw dairy.

There is also the suggestion that because Rawesome is outside California's regulatory structure, its food is unsanitary and mislabeled--indeed, there are criminal counts associated with selling unsanitary and mislabeled food. It's all playing on people's ignorance of what happens in private food clubs and associations. A commenter on my previous post, RawMilk Advocate, points to the charge that "Eggs labeled with stickers that read: Healthy Family Farms Santa Paula, California. Fresh-free Range 8027A - Grade AA Pack Date 5/14/201 (134) Sell by: June 15 - Refrigerate after purchase - Large - were found for sale at Rawsome. These labels were attached to a box made by other commercial egg vendors."

As I said in my previous post, I don't know whether there is anything to the Aajonus Vonderplanitz charges about Sharon Palmer's eggs. But anyone who regularly obtains eggs at farmers markets or via food clubs knows that the producers invariably place stickers with their farm names onto re-cycled egg containers from the grocery or other places. The producers save money on having customized containers produced for them.

But it's completely clear all this has nothing to do with outsourcing or real safety issues. It is about availability of raw dairy and public-versus-private food distribution.

Since much of the case seems to be focused on Sharon Palmer's goat milk (and James Stewart's involvement in distributing it), it could be that the authorities were somehow troubled by what may have been her wink-and-nod approach to distribution. If so, it's more evidence of something I've argued in the past: that food clubs need to dot their i's and cross their t's in putting together a private food group. Otherwise, they won't stand a prayer in any kind of court challenge before an uneducated judge.

In any event, the word is that Rawesome will be open for members on Saturday, albeit with limited product availability. But the key is that it re-opens, and demonstrates the commitment of its members to retaining access to the nutrient-dense foods of their choice.

[basplaer]

Don't you people want to understand the mechanics of how they do what they do?


Dunno if you're addressing me particularly or are crowing in the wind, but as far as I'm concerned, yes, I have great interest in learning these mechanics if for no other reason than I may need to avaoid them at some point. Not really sure there IS a fix, as the root of the problem IS ".gov"

[Joe King]

Dunno if you're addressing me particularly or are crowing in the wind, but as far as I'm concerned, yes, I have great interest in learning these mechanics if for no other reason than I may need to avaoid them at some point. Not really sure there IS a fix, as the root of the problem IS ".gov"
It was addressed to anyone willing to listen.

The only way to even begin to fix any of this stuff is know how it all works.
ie know your enemy and his tactics if you want to defeat said enemy.

As long as people are running around like chickens with their heads cut of, squacking about how the gov can't do this or that......while the gov carrys on doing whatever it is they are doing, nothing will ever change at all.

It's kinda like being lost in the forest. At some point it helps to learn how you got there so that you might start back-tracking your way out.
ie knowledge is power.


Either that, or beg the gov to enact new regulations that acknowledge whatever it is you want.....but then you be at their mercy as to whether they actually do so, or not.

[BrewTech]

Well, they were obviously enforcing FDA regulations. Otherwise they wouldn't have been there at all.


Edited to add:


The law you're citing is a State law. The action taken at Rawesome foods was a Federal action, not a State action.
Federal law is superior to State law.

Up to this point, I was on the fence about you. Now I know you're a shill.

Keep posting, bro... pretty soon you will be EVERYONE'S enemy.

[Joe King]

Up to this point, I was on the fence about you. Now I know you're a shill.

Keep posting, bro... pretty soon you will be EVERYONE'S enemy.How so? I was just stating the truth of the matter.

It is a fact that it is the FDA who did the raid, not State police.

How is stating a fact of the matter make me a "shill"?

You obviously need to read further into the thread.

[lapis]

How so? I was just stating the truth of the matter.

It is a fact that it is the FDA who did the raid, not State police.

Actually, federal, state AND city government agencies participated in the raid:

U.S. Food and Drug Administration
California Franchise Tax Board
California Department of Food and Agriculture’s Milk and Dairy Food Safety Branch and the department’s Division of Measurement Standards
Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office
Los Angeles County Department of Public Health
Ventura County Sheriff’s Department
Ventura County Department of Public Health
Los Angeles Police Department
Los Angeles Department of Building and Safety

Overkill much?

[Joe King]

But it was still a federal operation. They were callin' the shots, so to speak, and it was a federal indictment.

Besides, the feds use the locals for things like crowd-control.
ie the locol-yokal at the door answering questions, but that had no real info to give.

[lapis]

I guess so. I'm trying to find out the specifics of the CA Food & Agricultural code sections they were charged with violating, but the pages that came up in my search aren't loading.

[Joe King]

Well, keep looking.

It's always nice to know the exact details of the subject at hand.

[dys]

What a crock of shit and f u c k anyone that defends this nonsense. No victim, no crime. Corpus dilecti- google it.

dys

[mick silver]

by some land an get a milk cow . thats what it will come to if you want raw milk ... and i am sure they will come for that cow also in time

[midnight rambler]

Federal law is superior to State law.

The words of an unrepentant statist.

It has been adjudicated repeatedly - the USG is foreign to the states.

[po boy]

What a crock of shit and f u c k anyone that defends this nonsense. No victim, no crime. Corpus dilecti- google it.

dys

They were engaged in COMMERCE and from what I've read in the state's complaint they are guilty. Is it morally right no I don't believe so.

What you are talking about works for common law crimes but COMMERCE isn't following common law principals. Most people has thrown away common law rights for civil privileges.

[dys]

They were engaged in COMMERCE and from what I've read in the state's complaint they are guilty. Is it morally right no I don't believe so.

What you are talking about works for common law crimes but COMMERCE isn't following common law principals. Most people has thrown away common law rights for civil privileges.

Absolute, unequivocal, total, replete, complete, BULLSHIT. Rights cannot be taken or even given away. Rights cannot be taken or even given away. Rights cannot be taken or given away.
The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights.

dys

[mick silver]

dys you just hit a home run there .

[palani]

It has been adjudicated repeatedly - the USG is foreign to the states.

The U.S. government and its' congress exercise complete control over territories. They also exercise complete control over their 14th amendment citizens. A U.S. 14th amendment citizen residing within any of the several united States MUST recognize Federal Law over State Law. Most of state law is now written for these 14th amendment citizens and does not apply to people born within that state and who bear complete allegiance to that state.

The states write statute law for these 14th amendment U.S. citizens by describing their land as "this state", a borderless entity that does not attach to the soil of the state. Do a search in your state code for the phrase "this state" and you will find some interesting concepts.

I got used to working with imaginary things early in my career so this is an easy concept for me. KW is real power. KVAR is imaginary power. You pay for KW but you have to size the wire for the KVARS used too. It may be imaginary but it still exists as actual current.

[Dogman]

Actually, federal, state AND city government agencies participated in the raid:

U.S. Food and Drug Administration
California Franchise Tax Board
California Department of Food and Agriculture’s Milk and Dairy Food Safety Branch and the department’s Division of Measurement Standards
Los Angeles County District Attorney’s Office
Los Angeles County Department of Public Health
Ventura County Sheriff’s Department
Ventura County Department of Public Health
Los Angeles Police Department
Los Angeles Department of Building and Safety

Overkill much?

Just a tad....Sort of like this!

http://www.flixya.com/files-photo/s/a/f/safiashafiq2047968.jpg

[Joe King]

What a crock of shit and f u c k anyone that defends this nonsense. No victim, no crime. Corpus dilecti- google it.

dysI'm not defending it, but merely trying help you understand the mechanism they are using to do it with.

Knowledge is power. Running around while screaming "they can't do this! they can't do this! oh noesssss!" ....as they go about their business isn't helping in the least.

In fact, it makes it worse.

[palani]

The purpose of government is to secure rights.

Police are to PROTECT AND SERVE. The question is WHO? The same with GOVERNMENT. They do a good job of securing the rights of voters (congressmen ... they actually do the voting don't they?).

Police are corporate. They are INTENDED to protect the rights of CORPORATIONS. In other words, they exist to keep criminals from destroying property. If they spot a crime on a man or woman they MIGHT decide to act as a citizen does and make a citizens arrest.

[po boy]

Absolute, unequivocal, total, replete, complete, BULLSHIT. Rights cannot be taken or even given away. Rights cannot be taken or even given away. Rights cannot be taken or given away.
The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights.

dys

Okay then why did they get raided.

[dys]

The U.S. government and its' congress exercise complete control over territories. They also exercise complete control over their 14th amendment citizens. A U.S. 14th amendment citizen residing within any of the several united States MUST recognize Federal Law over State Law. Most of state law is now written for these 14th amendment citizens and does not apply to people born within that state and who bear complete allegiance to that state.

The states write statute law for these 14th amendment U.S. citizens by describing their land as "this state", a borderless entity that does not attach to the soil of the state. Do a search in your state code for the phrase "this state" and you will find some interesting concepts.

I got used to working with imaginary things early in my career so this is an easy concept for me. KW is real power. KVAR is imaginary power. You pay for KW but you have to size the wire for the KVARS used too. It may be imaginary but it still exists as actual current.

The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights.


I'm not defending it, but merely trying help you understand the mechanism they are using to do it with.

Knowledge is power. Running around while screaming "they can't do this! they can't do this! oh noesssss!" ....as they go about their business isn't helping in the least.

In fact, it makes it worse.

The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights.

[dys]

Okay then why did they get raided.

They got raided because the people raiding them are criminals. Period.

dys

[Joe King]

Absolute, unequivocal, total, replete, complete, BULLSHIT. Rights cannot be taken or even given away. Rights cannot be taken or even given away. Rights cannot be taken or given away.
The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights.

dysYea, in a perfect World, perhaps.
...but we don't live in a perfect World. We live in a World where for far too long the people have been trading their unalienable Rights for privileges and immunities.

Keep thinking it's impossible to sign your Rights away. Keep your blinders on too, while you're at it.
Got a drivers license? If so, then guess what? You signed away your Right to travel without permission when you made the legal determination that you in fact needed permission to move about, and then went down and intentionally applied {asked} for that permission.

[mick silver]

the grass is green joe

[palani]

The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights.



The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights.

What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya?

[Dogman]

The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights.



The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights. The purpose of government is to secure rights.


What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya?

More kid's playground sandbox fights...

Really making points boys.

[palani]

Really making points boys.
You mean to say there is not more juju in repetition?

[Dogman]

You mean to say there is not more juju in repetition?

HaHa LOMAO!

Who in the hell knows!

561

Physical yes! Verbal I think not! ;D

[Joe King]

The words of an unrepentant statist.

It has been adjudicated repeatedly - the USG is foreign to the states.
Look, I'm not sayin' I agree with their actions. Just pointing out the reality of the situation. The State of CA has obviously permitted them to be superior to them.

Besides, Article 6 states that.......
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby,

...and when you take the 14th into account and the fact that 99.999% of the people all claim a status that was created by the fed gov, it gives them the jurisdiction they think they need to carry out such operations.

[palani]

...and when you take the 14th into account and the fact that 99.999% of the people all claim a status that was created by the fed gov, it gives them the jurisdiction they think they need to carry out such operations.

Unfortunately a lot of people with public school education will not be able to read and understand this

http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/mcdonald/vol1-5.htm


It was the intent of the so-called amendment, that the de
jure Citizens in the several States were not included in the
terminology, as they were by birthright Citizens as defined in
the Preamble, and could receive nothing from this so-called
amendment. "No white person born within the limits of the United
States and subject to their jurisdiction ... owes his status of
Citizenship to the recent amendments to the Federal Constitution"
Van Valkenburg v. Brown, 43 Cal. Sup Ct. 43.

Note "their jurisdiction" ... not "its jurisdiction" or the "U.S. jurisdiction".

[Bigjon]

FDA LUNATICS AND CRIMINALS

AUGUST 5, 2011. In a 2010 action filed against theFDA, the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund sought to protect the freedoms andrights of family farms-particularly when it came to the right to ship raw milkacross state lines.

The FDA responded to that filing in a mostrevealing way. In an astonishing way. Its position allows you to see into itsbureaucratic/fascist soul, if an agency can be said to have a soul.

Read these words (from FDA) carefully, becausethey amount to a manifesto and a prediction about what is to come, if thepeople of this country don't push back in overwhelming numbers:

"Plaintiffs assertion of a 'fundamental rightto their own bodily and physical health, which includes what foods they do anddo not choose to consume for themselves and their families,' is simplyunavailing because plaintiffs do not have any fundamental right to obtain anyfood they wish."

And then the FDA made this assertion:

"There is no fundamental right to freedom ofcontract."

After you pick yourself up off the floor, thinkabout why the FDA made the latter statement.

Small farms and consumers have been forming clubs in America, just like the club, Rawesome Foods, that was raided two days ago.These private groups are created to engage in contracts, agreements amongthemselves, about what foods they will buy and sell.

In the case of raw milk, in order to avoidinterference by the government, the club members agree to take responsibilityfor their own health, and the consequences, if any, of drinking raw unpasteurized milk.

They are, in effect, saying, "We make thechoice. The choice doesn't involve the government, one way or another. This isa private contract."

But the FDA steps in and issues their edict: youdon't have a fundamental right to a contract. You especially don't have a rightto a contract that contravenes one of our regulations. You are under US. We decide, not you.

Those are the battles lines. They have been drawnin stark terms. The federal government isn't going to change. It needs to be able to obliterate any private agreement in order to expand its control. It needs to be able to say, YOU ARE NOT A GOVERNMENT BY THE PEOPLE, YOU ARE APEOPLE BY THE GOVERNMENT.

In these FDA comments, which deserve to be communicated far and wide so people can understand what is being done to them,the federal government has let its share-and-care mask drop, and has shown its face.

Look at it.

JON RAPPOPORT
www.nomorefakenews.com (http://www.nomorefakenews.com/)
qjrconsulting@gmail.com (qjrconsulting@gmail.com)
By
Jon Rappoport

[Santa]

Yea, in a perfect World, perhaps.
...but we don't live in a perfect World. We live in a World where for far too long the people have been trading their unalienable Rights for privileges and immunities.

Keep thinking it's impossible to sign your Rights away. Keep your blinders on too, while you're at it.
Got a drivers license? If so, then guess what? You signed away your Right to travel without permission when you made the legal determination that you in fact needed permission to move about, and then went down and intentionally applied {asked} for that permission.


This is the same argument given throughout history that sets
up the cognitive dissonance needed to continue these immoral actions by authority. It sounds right because it's been repeated so many times.

If laws were simple, you know written in stone, say, then the maxim, "ignorance of the law is no excuse" would be understandable, and therefore just, but under this UCC Babylonian Majik gobbledygook, it's a big fat "fuck you" to everyone's "moral intelligence." It also sets up the basic foundation for control by a top down technocratic elite, who deem to know how to interpret them.

Dys is correct from a moral standpoint. He is seeing clearly, from his heart. To patronize his view doesn't help. It only makes matters worse.

I get steamed about this stuff because my moral intelligence is constantly under attack by this plague of locusts called LAWS that are swarming the earth... and this pestilence swarms hand in hand with $$$, also referred to as Mammon.

You're pandering to Mammon, or whatever you care to call it, by giving it validity and demeaning natural morality by condescending to other posters moral outrage.

This is essentially what has befallen our civilization.
A great Leviathan has risen up from out of the sea, (Admiralty Law?), and it is devouring our humanity, our souls, our sense of morality, our spiritual connection to one another.

[Joe King]

Santa, Dys may be correct from a common-law standpoint, with that I can agree.

The problem however is that when you make a legal determination as to what you are, and then use that decision to claim a status with the gov that has been wholly created and is regulated by said gov, they are only acting upon the information that you yourself gave them.
What you told them was that you want their benefits.
....and surprise surprise surprise....the FDA is one of those "benefits" you get to enjoy.

Re-read what Palani quoted above. It tells you right there in black and white.

[dys]

Santa, Dys may be correct from a common-law standpoint, with that I can agree.

The problem however is that when you make a legal determination as to what you are, and then use that decision to claim a status with the gov that has been wholly created and is regulated by said gov, they are only acting upon the information that you yourself gave them.
What you told them was that you want their benefits.
....and surprise surprise surprise....the FDA is one of those "benefits" you get to enjoy.

Re-read what Palani quoted above. It tells you right there in black and white.

The bad guys always try to complicate the simple.

dys

[gunDriller]

What is the purpose of invading Iraq? What is the purpose of invading Afghanistan? What is the purpose of invading Libya? What is the purpose of invading Iraq?

What is the purpose
Why invade Afghanistan
Shylock stirring sh!t.

/\ haiku for the day !

[palani]

What is the purpose
Why invade Afghanistan
Shylock stirring sh!t.

/\ haiku for the day !

According to dys: "The purpose of government is to secure rights." These three examples were given not of rights being secured but booty being seized ... terrorism of innocent people.

[Joe King]

The bad guys always try to complicate the simple.
dys

I already said that under Common law you'd be correct.
The problem is that the action taken by the FDA wasn't done under the Common law.

Also, the people in question placed themselves within the FDAs "authority".
ie the people voluntarily opted out of the Common law decades ago.

What you are doing is akin to attempts at arguing about civil law in a Court of criminal law.

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

If there is no fundemental right to contract, then from where does the government draw its power?


People are sovereign. The usual argument is that through contract, they have ceded some or all power. Without the fundemental right to contract, all people revert back to sovereign, or the government is forced to admit that raw force is the source of their authority.

Either way you slice it, this is a stupid argument for them, as it nullifies the sovereignty-stealing that they've done, and exposes them.


If I don't have a right to contract, how are you ruling me? There's no way I can consent to be governed w/o a right to contract..... Pure serfdom, pure force, pure threat - that's the only remaining answer.

[osoab]

The U.S. government and its' congress exercise complete control over territories. They also exercise complete control over their 14th amendment citizens. A U.S. 14th amendment citizen residing within any of the several united States MUST recognize Federal Law over State Law. Most of state law is now written for these 14th amendment citizens and does not apply to people born within that state and who bear complete allegiance to that state.

The states write statute law for these 14th amendment U.S. citizens by describing their land as "this state", a borderless entity that does not attach to the soil of the state. Do a search in your state code for the phrase "this state" and you will find some interesting concepts.

I got used to working with imaginary things early in my career so this is an easy concept for me. KW is real power. KVAR is imaginary power. You pay for KW but you have to size the wire for the KVARS used too. It may be imaginary but it still exists as actual current.


Help me out here palani, what is KW and KVARS. It doesn't ring a bell currently.

[Joe King]

If there is no fundemental right to contract, then from where does the government draw its power?
From the people, where else?

The problem is that the gov used that power to create something called a US citizen and then "the people", in order to claim federal benefits, started claiming themselves to be that government created thing.

Don't believe me? Try claiming that you are one of the progeny in federal court while showing your SS card......and see who no longer has standing as a party to the Constitution.
That'd be the person holding the SS card.



If I don't have a right to contract, how are you ruling me? There's no way I can consent to be governed w/o a right to contract..... Pure serfdom, pure force, pure threat - that's the only remaining answer.
You consented to be governed under the regulated system when you applied to become a card-carrying subject of that regulated system.
...and subjects within that regulated system are only permitted to enter into certain types of contracts.
ie entering into a contract whose sole purpose is to defeat said regulated system that you previously consented to be governed by, is not a legitimate contract for their subjects to enter into. Therefore it is void upon its inception.

The progeny of "The People" named in the Constitution have long since waived their sovereignity.

[palani]

Help me out here palani, what is KW and KVARS. It doesn't ring a bell currently.

Electrical .. KW - kilowatts KVARS - kilovolt-amps (reactive). Anything purely resistive consumes real power ... if talking AC then the voltage vector lines up with the current vector ... If you have capacitance then the amp vector leads the voltage vector ... If you have inductance then the amp vector lags the voltage vector.. In either of these cases the KVARS are imaginary .... power pumped into either the capacitance or inductance comes out of the device later in the cycle.

[Joe King]

The problem is that the gov used that power to create something called a US citizen and then "the people", in order to claim federal benefits, started claiming themselves to be that government created thing.

BTW, the thing they created was intended to extend civil Rights and federal protection to the newly freed slaves after the war.

Which is why I said before that had the generation of Americans alive at the time accepted those newly freed slaves as having equal Rights to their own, the federal gov would not have needed to create that new status to begin with.
...and everyone today would most likely still be a direct party to the Constitution.

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

@Joe King:

You know for a fact that none of us applied for social security cards or numbers. THat's simply not how the system works.


You consented to be governed under the regulated system when you applied to become a card-carrying subject of that regulated system.

Yes, the government derives its power from the people. However, this is a matter of contract. If the government claims that we have no right to contract, then we are unable to transfer our power to the government. See the connundrum this creates? Stripping the right to contract also strips consent to be governed.

[Joe King]

@Joe King:

You know for a fact that none of us applied for social security cards or numbers. THat's simply not how the system works.

Even if your parents signed you up, at the point you accepted it and started using it as yours, it is assumed by the gov to be accepted and acknowledged.

[lapis]

No right to do this, no right to do that, and now THIS:

Breaking News: Rawesome Foods raid victims stripped of First Amendment rights with court gag order (http://www.naturalnews.com/033244_Rawesome_Foods_gag_order.html#ixzz1UD3Dqtep )


Victoria Bloch was released from jail in LA County last night, but only under the condition that she completely give up her First Amendment rights and refrain from talking to anyone about the case. NaturalNews has confirmed this gag order was placed on Victoria and is also going to be placed on James Stewart and Sharon Palmer as a condition of their release (they are reportedly making bail today and may be home by this evening).

This gag order is, of course, an effort by the California court system to try to quell the rising tidal wave of public outrage against the armed government raids against a raw dairy farm and private buyer's club -- a raid that many people who witnessed it described, in their own words, as "government terrorism" against the People.

First, the government attempts to take away their right to engage in commerce and enter private contracts. Then, the government vandalizes this buying club, steals their cash, destroys their entire product inventory and steals the computers from the store. The owners (and conspiring farmers) are arrested at gunpoint and taken to jail without even being read their rights. And finally, to top it off, they are slapped with a gag order which prohibits them having their First Amendment rights so that they might tell their side of the story.

This is a total assault on freedom by the government.

NaturalNews has learned that under this gag order, these raw milk advocates are prevented from:

• Speaking to any member of the press.
• Tweeting or blogging about the raid.
• Posting anything on Facebook or websites.
• Sending emails about the case.
• Communicating in any way, verbally or non-verbally about the government raids conducted against them.

Join the online revolt against government-sponsored terrorism of American farmers

Meanwhile, public outrage is rapidly spreading. A viral Tweet campaign has been launched that has people tweeting #rawesome and #farmageddon across the web (http://www.naturalnews.com/033243_r...), and a new video has just been posted by Sarah Brown that interviewed several people who witnessed the raid. Watch this video to see government terrorists stealing computers and business files from Rawesome Foods:
http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=C3E89...

or see it on YouTube at:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xzlr...

I've just completed an interview with Lela Buttery, who is at the LA County Courthouse and is watching for the release of the "prisoners" James Steward and Sharon Palmer. That interview will be posted here on NaturalNews shortly.

Alex Jones will be commenting on this developing story on his Sunday broadcast from www.InfoWars.com and here at NaturalNews, we continue to gather intelligence from the front lines about who is behind this raid and why such evil criminals exist in our government. More stories soon...

Thank you for sharing our stories and continuing to spread the word about these acts of government terrorism against dairy farms and raw milk buyer's clubs.

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

Even if your parents signed you up, at the point you accepted it and started using it as yours, it is assumed by the gov to be accepted and acknowledged.

Ya missed the real meat of my comment:

Yes, the government derives its power from the people. However, this is a matter of contract. If the government claims that we have no right to contract, then we are unable to transfer our power to the government. See the connundrum this creates? Stripping the right to contract also strips consent to be governed.

[Joe King]

Ya missed the real meat of my comment:

Yes, the government derives its power from the people. However, this is a matter of contract. If the government claims that we have no right to contract, then we are unable to transfer our power to the government. See the connundrum this creates? Stripping the right to contract also strips consent to be governed.

Ahhh, but you see the "no right to contract" only applies to the ones who are claiming to be the regulated creation of the fed gov.
...and SS isn't a contract anyways, as it provides no real property Rights to the card holder.

Also, it isn't that there is no Right to contract, just that whatever US citizens do have the Right to contract is defined in the regulations. Which is why some types of contracts are not recognized as legal by the fed gov and therefore cannot legally be entered into by US citizens.


The people and their progeny who originally delegated some of their Just power to create the federal gov to begin with, are fully able to enter into any contract they want to.

[Santa]

BTW, the thing they created was intended to extend civil Rights and federal protection to the newly freed slaves after the war.

Which is why I said before that had the generation of Americans alive at the time accepted those newly freed slaves as having equal Rights to their own, the federal gov would not have needed to create that new status to begin with.
...and everyone today would most likely still be a direct party to the Constitution.

Wow! I think I understand what you're saying, Joe.

What you've been saying over and over is that "the American people are to blame," "the American people are to blame," "the American people are to blame" for their pathetic profane lives of servitude because the American people were racists and that the Federal Government shouldn't be blamed in any way because it's the American people who are to blame.

That all you want is to make us happy because its your job
and that you personally are not affected by the Federal Government Police State because you are a human being.

And that we should buck up and accept our blame.

What you're saying over and over is that you're a Mason. Lol, Phhttt! :p

[Joe King]

No, I'd compare it to finding yourself lost deep in the thick dark forest and instead of wandering aimlessly hoping to stumble upon the way out, we stop long enough to analyze just how it is we got into the forest to begin with.
It is only with that knowledge that you can ever hope to re-trace your steps back out of the forest. To keep going further into the forest is but a crap-shoot. Maybe you find something good, or maybe you find a hungry grizzly bear instead.



In another way, it's also important for people to fully understand why things are the way they are and how they got that way so when all this comes crashing down around us and has to be re-built, perhaps enough people will be aware of what not to fall for next time around.

"My people perish for lack of knowledge"....so try not to perish, ok?

[Santa]

No, I'd compare it to finding yourself lost deep in the thick dark forest and instead of wandering aimlessly hoping to stumble upon the way out, we stop long enough to analyze just how it is we got into the forest to begin with.
It is only with that knowledge that you can ever hope to re-trace your steps back out of the forest. To keep going further into the forest is but a crap-shoot. Maybe you find something good, or maybe you find a hungry grizzly bear instead.



In another way, it's also important for people to fully understand why things are the way they are and how they got that way so when all this comes crashing down around us and has to be re-built, perhaps enough people will be aware of what not to fall for next time around.

"My people perish for lack of knowledge"....so try not to perish, ok?

Getting out of this forest requires a moral compass, quite the opposite of legalese.

[po boy]

Getting out of this forest requires a moral compass, quite the opposite of legalese.

Would you bet on that? What odds you giving?

[solid]

Would you bet on that? What odds you giving?

I've got a nickel. I like to tap my feet.

We all know you are with Willie Pete, down on the corner, out in the street.;D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clJb4zx0o1o

[slvrbugjim]

No, I'd compare it to finding yourself lost deep in the thick dark forest and instead of wandering aimlessly hoping to stumble upon the way out, we stop long enough to analyze just how it is we got into the forest to begin with.
It is only with that knowledge that you can ever hope to re-trace your steps back out of the forest. To keep going further into the forest is but a crap-shoot. Maybe you find something good, or maybe you find a hungry grizzly bear instead.



In another way, it's also important for people to fully understand why things are the way they are and how they got that way so when all this comes crashing down around us and has to be re-built, perhaps enough people will be aware of what not to fall for next time around.

"My people perish for lack of knowledge"....so try not to perish, ok?\]

wtf are you talking about, damn

[Santa]

Would you bet on that? What odds you giving?
Absolutely, because without morality there is no justice.

Thus, without a moral compass, Law's only remaining purpose is to deceive.
To be used as a weapon to control others. Justice be damned.

Law without morality is an abomination.

[po boy]

Absolutely, because without morality there is no justice.

Thus, without a moral compass, Law's only remaining purpose is to deceive.
To be used as a weapon to control others. Justice be damned.

Law without morality is an abomination.

So is it immoral not to inform upon oneself.

[Santa]

So is it immoral not to inform upon oneself.

I really don't understand what you're asking.

Mans Law is social welfare for its occult practitioner's and followers. "Welfare for the soul," so to speak.

An artificial replacement for one's indwelt ability to discern right from wrong.

I don't buy it. I don't buy its lingo.

You can say that my great grandfather gave my Liberty away to some sovereign or that I was born a serf due to a birth certificate or that I gave consent to the Law when I received a social security number all you want.

These are lies perpetrated by the occult black robes throughout history.

Why would I want to lend credibility to those pricks
by parroting their lies?

[Joe King]

Getting out of this forest requires a moral compass, quite the opposite of legalese.

What if it was a legalese compass that you were using when you ended up getting lost?

The whole point I'm getting at is that the easiest way to get back out of it, is to realize how you got in it to begin with.
ie examine the path you chose to follow that resulted in your getting lost, in order to determine where you took a wrong turn.

[Joe King]

\]

wtf are you talking about, damn

I was giving an analogy of how we got to the point we have.
ie people finding themselves lost in a regulatory legal matrix, and failing to understand how they became entangled in it.

Which brings in my analogy you asked about.

It's like finding yourself lost in the deep dark forest after taking a series of wrong turns on the way to grandmas house.
....but instead of recognizing the forest for the danger it represents, people instead are saying to themselves, there is no forest....there is no forest.....there is no forest...etc etc...in a quest to explain away that which their own eyes are seeing, but that they don't fully understand.

What they don't understand is administrative law and how they've chose to bind themselves with it.

[Santa]

What if it was a lagalese compass that you were using when you ended up getting lost?That's what I've been saying, "Stop playing with Satan's tool." Ahahahaha :D

[Joe King]

That's what I've been saying, "Stop playing with Satan's tool." Ahahahaha :D


Well, did you use those tools to gain recognition under the regulated system that was created by the gov?
ie have you applied to be eligible for its benefits?

If so, you used "legalese" to do so. Welcome to the machine, Santa.

Does the gov have any evidence on file that shows you to be what you say you are? Or do they have piles of docs you yourself gave them that show you claiming to be a thing they created?
What are you?
What was George Washington?
Do you enjoy the same status as he did?

[Santa]

What they don't understand is administrative law and how they've chose to bind themselves with it.

No man, you've chosen to bind yourself with it, not everyone else. You, in all your solitary splendor continue to blame everyone else,
Everyone other than yourself, that is.
And then you say the way out of the forest is down the primrose path of legalese. *cough* mason *cough*cough.** Lol

[Joe King]

If that's the path you used to get in it, then that's the path out of it.

The bottom line is that the FDA in this case is only acting upon the information that the defendants themselves gave it.

Again, do you think that you enjoy the same status relative to the government, that George Washington did? Did he claim to be a "US citizen" too?


Edited to add: understanding the mechanism being used is akin to the old saying,...know thy enemy.

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Art_of_War#Quotations)

The first line is where you should want to be.
...but most people argue from in the position of the third line when dealing with gov affairs.

[Santa]

Edited to add: understanding the mechanism being used is akin to the old saying,...know thy enemy.To know thy enemy does not mean to lick the enemies boots while accusing those wholesome sweet raw milk lovers of asking for it while they get reamed. Jeesh...::)

I don't know though, perhaps it does in the world of covert Masonic intelligence? ;D

[Joe King]

Santa, no one's saying to lick their boots.
On the contrary, willingly accepting benefit is more akin to the boot-licking.

How does understanding your enemies language not help you to defeat your enemy?
If you have no idea what they are saying, then how can you successfully counter them?

Again, did you apply for and/or accept the benefits of the regulated system that the fed gov created?....and is in charge of?

Who made the legal determination that you need apply? You? Or did your parents just tell you, "you gotta do this thing here, unnerstan?" you---"yes dad, since you know what you're talking about, I will dad."


Has anyone in the gov ever told you that you "had" to do any of it, as required by law, before you actually applied for and/or accepted whatever it is you applied for?

[Santa]

Santa, no one's saying to lick their boots.
On the contrary, willingly accepting benefit is more akin to the boot-licking.

How does understanding your enemies language not help you to defeat your enemy?
If you have no idea what they are saying, then how can you successfully counter them?

Again, did you apply for and/or accept the benefits of the regulated system that the fed gov created?....and is in charge of?

Who made the legal determination that you need apply? You? Or did your parents just tell you, "you gotta do this thing here, unnerstan?" you---"yes dad, since you know what you're talking about, I will dad."


Has anyone in the gov ever told you that you "had" to do any of it, as required by law, before you actually applied for and/or accepted whatever it is you applied for?Yes, I was a child with absolutely no access to the knowledge necessary to thwart the deception being perpetrated on me and my parents and their parents before them, but I suppose you're going to tell me it was all my fault anyway. :)

[Joe King]

Who's word did you take when you accepted it and started using it?
For you to have done so, a determination of your legal status had to be made by someone.

Was it you? Your parents? Who?
Or did someone from the gov show up at your door to "make" you accept it and use it, against your Will?

It's just like getting a drivers license.
For you to go apply for one, someone must have made the legal determination that you were in fact a person who needed to have permission in order to engage in that activity.
Otherwise, you wouldn't go ask for that permission by applying.

By applying, you are saying that you agree to be bound by the regulatory system that regulates the act of "driving" as defined in the traffic code.
....but to use your stance relative to the FDA action, and apply it to driving would be saying you want the license but not to be bound by the regulations that go with the license.


Keep in mind, I'm merely trying to explain the mechanism at work. We were all put in the same boat. Please don't be mad at the messenger, ok?

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it" --Frederic Bastiat

[Joe King]

....and the people rushed in to participate in it.

[po boy]

....and the people rushed in to participate in it.

and gave away their gold! face palm icon

[Santa]

Keep in mind, I'm merely trying to explain the mechanism at work. We were all put in the same boat. Please don't be mad at the messenger, ok? Lol... synonyms
1. perverse, headstrong, dogged, obdurate, stony, willful, froward. 1, 2. fractious, refractory, unbending, inflexible, adamant, unyielding.

Nope, I don't see explaining in this list... ;D

[Joe King]

Well Santa, I suppose if you just want to remain willfully ignorant of the fact that the regulatory system does not use Common law, that you'll have just stay confused as to how the gov does what it does.
...and I suppose you'll fill out your tax form and sign it under penalty of perjury and then wonder how they can use stuff like that against people in Court if we have a 5th Amendment against self incrimination.
...and that you'll apply for or renew your drivers license and sign an agreement to be bound by the traffic code regulations, and then wonder how they can write tickets when there's no actual victim.

You probably explain it all away by thinking they willfully disobey the Constitution and that you're just a helpless victim at the mercy of tyrants, yea?

[dys]

Well Santa, I suppose if you just want to remain willfully ignorant of the fact that the regulatory system does not use Common law, that you'll have just stay confused as to how the gov does what it does.
...and I suppose you'll fill out your tax form and sign it under penalty of perjury and then wonder how they can use stuff like that against people in Court if we have a 5th Amendment against self incrimination.
...and that you'll apply for or renew your drivers license and sign an agreement to be bound by the traffic code regulations, and then wonder how they can write tickets when there's no actual victim.

You probably explain it all away by thinking they willfully disobey the Constitution and that you're just a helpless victim at the mercy of tyrants, yea?


Well Santa, I suppose if you just want to remain willfully ignorant of the fact that the regulatory system does not use Common law, that you'll have just stay confused as to how the gov does what it does.
...and I suppose you'll fill out your tax form and sign it under penalty of perjury and then wonder how they can use stuff like that against people in Court if we have a 5th Amendment against self incrimination.
...and that you'll apply for or renew your drivers license and sign an agreement to be bound by the traffic code regulations, and then wonder how they can write tickets when there's no actual victim.

You probably explain it all away by thinking they willfully disobey the Constitution and that you're just a helpless victim at the mercy of tyrants, yea?

Your so called 'contract' or 'consent' arguments are laughable. If you coerce someone into signing something, there is no consent. Consent and coercion are mutually exclusive. Furthermore, these so called contracts don't disclose what you claim they represent, although you acknowledge the government 'assumes' certain things that they have absolutely no right or authorization to assume, even if true consent existed in the first place (which it didn't as it was obtained at the barrel of a loaded gun). It really is simple, you are carrying water for criminals and trying to blame the victims of the criminals (read: us) for their plight.

dys

[palani]

You fail to recognize how powerful consent actually is

http://i53.tinypic.com/107nplg.jpg

[dys]

You fail to recognize how powerful consent actually is

http://i53.tinypic.com/107nplg.jpg

Nonsense. Consent is not more powerful than the rule of law, and even if it was your version of consent is NOT consent, it's coercion. As I've already stated coercion is antithetical to consent.

dys

[po boy]

Nonsense. Consent is not more powerful than the rule of law, and even if it was your version of consent is NOT consent, it's coercion. As I've already stated coercion is antithetical to consent.

dys

How do you think that would fly in court?

[dys]

How do you think that would fly in court?

It wouldn't. You know it wouldn't. Which is a great illustration that our courts are run by criminals.

dys

[po boy]

It wouldn't. You know it wouldn't. Which is a great illustration that our courts are run by criminals.

dys

So why are you continuing to do business with them? The fact that you say you were coerced and now know it are you not responsible to correct the mistake?

[dys]

So why are you continuing to do business with them? The fact that you say you were coerced and now know it are you not responsible to correct the mistake?

I do business with them so I won't get arrested and thrown in jail. And yes, I have tried to not do business with them. This whole 'contract' argument is only used by them when it benefits them. When it doesn't benefit them, licenses, codes, et al are 'mandatory'.

dys

[po boy]

I do business with them so I won't get arrested and thrown in jail. And yes, I have tried to not do business with them. This whole 'contract' argument is only used by them when it benefits them. When it doesn't benefit them, licenses, codes, et al are 'mandatory'.

dys

Many laws, statutes, codes have exemptions to them i.e. they are not going to make you get a vaccine if it would kill you but you have to tell them so.

Many laws are unconstitutional but if you don't know that and don't bring it up you can be jailed.

Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse no matter natures, God's or the states.

For some of us we are tired of being ignorant and living in defeatism.

[dys]

Many laws, statutes, codes have exemptions to them i.e. they are not going to make you get a vaccine if it would kill you but you have to tell them so.

Many laws are unconstitutional but if you don't know that and don't bring it up you can be jailed.

Ignorance of the law isn't an excuse no matter natures, God's or the states.

For some of us we are tired of being ignorant and living in defeatism.

You'll never avoid paying the banks by proxy because you can't avoid paying the inflation tax even if you trade. Your defeatism is my realism.

dys

[po boy]

You'll never avoid paying the banks by proxy because you can't avoid paying the inflation tax even if you trade. Your defeatism is my realism.

dys

You can't inflate gold or silver and a day of labor is still just a day. Limit your exposure, produce all you can.

[basplaer]

Ok, legalese esoterica aside, what would be a practical way for somebody lacking the space necessary to tend a dairy cow to obtain raw milk without having to steal it or worry about a multi-agency trouncing of their life?

[Joe King]

Ok, legalese esoterica aside, what would be a practical way for somebody lacking the space necessary to tend a dairy cow to obtain raw milk without having to steal it or worry about a multi-agency trouncing of their life?

The issue you raise here is a problem, but only in the fact that if one chooses not to consent, he still surrounded by those who have.

Yes, it may be a real issue to obtain raw milk from a vendor because all the vendors have agreed to participate in the regulated system.

I've never said that's not a problem, but rather have merely tried to point out the mechanism responsible for having produced the World we see around us.
It didn't get this way overnight, but rather by people over the generations having little to no understanding as to what they are and what applies to them.
...and then allowing others to make their legal determinations for them.

A free people who choose ignorance will not be free for long.

[po boy]

Ok, legalese esoterica aside, what would be a practical way for somebody lacking the space necessary to tend a dairy cow to obtain raw milk without having to steal it or worry about a multi-agency trouncing of their life?

Trade with money of intrinsic value for milk that isn't for human consumption.Do this on the dl. One could also have a mini pet goat so as to comply with ordinances against livestock animals.

Most of these draconian laws are regulation on commerce article 1 sec. 8.

Most people have contracts with the state and the state has regulations for different statuses(?) of persons.

[Joe King]

Your so called 'contract' or 'consent' arguments are laughable. If you coerce someone into signing something, there is no consent.Who was coerced? Did gov officials escort you the DMV and hold a gun to your head making you sign an application for license?



Consent and coercion are mutually exclusive. Furthermore, these so called contracts don't disclose what you claim they represent,Yes, they do. Or do actually think that by signing an application for a drivers license that you aren't agreeing to be bound by the transportaion code?


although you acknowledge the government 'assumes' certain things that they have absolutely no right or authorization to assume, even if true consent existed in the first place (which it didn't as it was obtained at the barrel of a loaded gun). It was not. The gov didn't even know you until you provided evidence to them declaring what you think your status to be.
...and then you wanna get upset because they acted upon the info you gave them. ::)


It really is simple, you are carrying water for criminals and trying to blame the victims of the criminals (read: us) for their plight.
dys

I'm not trying to do anything but help people to see the path they themselves chose to take.

When you want to go somewhere and you find out that you took a wrong turn on your journey, do you continue on to points unknown? Or do you find a place to turn around so as to end up where you actually wanted to go?

[palani]

Nonsense. Consent is not more powerful than the rule of law, and even if it was your version of consent is NOT consent, it's coercion. As I've already stated coercion is antithetical to consent.dys

You have proven to me that you know absolutely nothing about consent, contract or law. When you play chess (or poker, 500, sheepshead, bridge) do you blame your opponent for exploiting your weakness? Why then do you condemn law enforcement and judicial system for being confused by your behavior?

Very little about law speaks of honor. Mostly when it comes to honor the discussion seems to revolve around what you do with negotiable instruments. Yet honor in terms of behavior is perhaps the most important aspect of law. You come in with arguments when you should be coming in with counter offers. Argument is babbling and is inherently dishonorable. Either agree, shut up (silent consent) or send out a counter offer. But don't go blaming the "system" for exploiting your weakness. You have already lost once you accept THEIR agreement and sought a license. You lost then but it would take hitting you with a 2x4 to see this because you prefer argument over winning.

[palani]

Ok, legalese esoterica aside, what would be a practical way for somebody lacking the space necessary to tend a dairy cow to obtain raw milk without having to steal it or worry about a multi-agency trouncing of their life?

Why not check out the black market?

Personally I would rather know where the milk is coming from. There are small operations that I would prefer to have their milk pasteurized because some people never learn the fine art of cleanliness. You probably don't want to purchase any product raw from them. Also I have been told that the herd size must be over 3-4 animals and the milk blended rather than purchasing the milk from a single cow.

Got a dog or cat? Find a local operation and let 'em know you need a gallon or two a week for the pets. Don't lie about. The pets like to live well too.

[dys]

You have proven to me that you know absolutely nothing about consent, contract or law. When you play chess (or poker, 500, sheepshead, bridge) do you blame your opponent for exploiting your weakness? Why then do you condemn law enforcement and judicial system for being confused by your behavior?

Very little about law speaks of honor. Mostly when it comes to honor the discussion seems to revolve around what you do with negotiable instruments. Yet honor in terms of behavior is perhaps the most important aspect of law. You come in with arguments when you should be coming in with counter offers. Argument is babbling and is inherently dishonorable. Either agree, shut up (silent consent) or send out a counter offer. But don't go blaming the "system" for exploiting your weakness. You have already lost once you accept THEIR agreement and sought a license. You lost then but it would take hitting you with a 2x4 to see this because you prefer argument over winning.

And you have already proven to me that you are a shill. Actually, you proved it a long time ago. Here is the law to which you and your shill friends cannot weasle your way out of using methods of complexity and obfuscation:

The purpose of government is to secure rights.

dys

[basplaer]

So if I acquired a dairy cow or four and started trading their unlicensed, ungraded, unpasteurized milk out of my sterile garage for pieces of metals that people brought to me then we would all sleep well at night without the need to worry about the alphabet soup brigade stealing our shit?

I am familiar with the black market but the thing is black markets have a way of being trounced by the alphabet soup brigade.

[palani]

And you have already proven to me that you are a shill. Actually, you proved it a long time ago. Here is the law to which you and your shill friends cannot weasle your way out of using methods of complexity and obfuscation:

The purpose of government is to secure rights.

dys

Could it be? If I am a shill then you are non compos mentos?

[po boy]

And you have already proven to me that you are a shill. Actually, you proved it a long time ago. Here is the law to which you and your shill friends cannot weasle your way out of using methods of complexity and obfuscation:

The purpose of government is to secure rights.

dys


You are the proximate cause of your injury, and yet claim others to be shills.
You think the .gov is going to do all the work for you? How's that working out?

[Joe King]

The purpose of government is to secure rights.

dys
That's exactly what they are doing.
ie they are securing Rights as defined by gov within their regulations, for those that asked the gov to be bound by those regulations.

Think of civil Rights and how the gov uses the regulations to define what those are.
ie your Rights are but what they say they are if you claim a status that their regulations created to begin with.

[Bigjon]

And you have already proven to me that you are a shill. Actually, you proved it a long time ago. Here is the law to which you and your shill friends cannot weasle your way out of using methods of complexity and obfuscation:

The purpose of government is to secure rights.

dys

That is what the people believe, but for those in the government believe it is the governments right and duty to stay in control.

The founders knew this and tried to hogtie the government with a set of rules called a constitution. Liars and deceivers replaced our constitution with one of their liking which puts them in charge and they use fraud to sell it.

[po boy]

So if I acquired a dairy cow or four and started trading their unlicensed, ungraded, unpasteurized milk out of my sterile garage for pieces of metals that people brought to me then we would all sleep well at night without the need to worry about the alphabet soup brigade stealing our shit?

I am familiar with the black market but the thing is black markets have a way of being trounced by the alphabet soup brigade.

Just produce enough for yourself, if you want to sell with a guarantee none of the alpha boys won't come knocking good luck.If you are determined you might want to have an airtight defense prepared in advance.

[dys]

That's exactly what they are doing.
ie they are securing Rights as defined by gov within their regulations, for those that asked the gov to be bound by those regulations.

Think of civil Rights and how the gov uses the regulations to define what those are.
ie your Rights are but what they say they are if you claim a status that their regulations created to begin with.

Oh, I see...they are securing rights...you know, the really important rights and all, and those are the rights which are defined 'within their regulations' which they lack the just powers to define, but they do anyway, but that's ok, because we ask them to do it for us...we beg them for it when he sign documents that don't divulge anything concerning maxims of law or waiving rights, but WE should know better. We should know that a driver's license document insinuates that we are waiving our rights, and you of course are the one that is educating on on this, so we will no longer remain ignorant.
Thank you for enlightening us.

dys

[dys]

PS. Btw contracting with government= good.
contracting with anyone else= forbidden.

But it's our fault.

dys

[po boy]

PS. Btw contracting with government= good.
contracting with anyone else= forbidden.

But it's our fault.

dys

Do you want the .gov to secure rights or do you want to take responsibility for yourself and quit passing the buck?

[Joe King]

That is what the people believe, but for those in the government believe it is the governments right and duty to stay in control.

The founders knew this and tried to hogtie the government with a set of rules called a constitution. Liars and deceivers replaced our constitution with one of their liking which puts them in charge and they use fraud to sell it.
....and it all got started by the people not doing their own due diligence.


And they didn't replace it so much, moreso redefined it.

[Joe King]

So if I acquired a dairy cow or four and started trading their unlicensed, ungraded, unpasteurized milk out of my sterile garage for pieces of metals that people brought to me then we would all sleep well at night without the need to worry about the alphabet soup brigade stealing our shit?

I am familiar with the black market but the thing is black markets have a way of being trounced by the alphabet soup brigade.

The problem with doing that as US citizen should be clear.
ie that status of person has not been granted the Right to make that decision within the regulations that created and defined that status.

[Joe King]

Oh, I see...they are securing rights...you know, the really important rights and all, and those are the rights which are defined 'within their regulations' which they lack the just powers to define, but they do anyway, You gave them the power when you claimed a status that the regulations created.


but that's ok, because we ask them to do it for us...we beg them for it when he sign documents that don't divulge anything concerning maxims of law or waiving rights, but WE should know better. We should know that a driver's license document insinuates that we are waiving our rights,
Do you not read what you sign? Are you not asking for permission as it is defined in the transportation code?
....but I see, you have a problem being bound by the rest of it. ie "just give me a license so I can do whatever I want" :roll:


and you of course are the one that is educating on on this, so we will no longer remain ignorant.
Thank you for enlightening us.

dysYou are welcome, dys. I'm glad to help.

[Santa]

The gov didn't even know you until you provided evidence to them declaring what you think your status to be.
...and then you wanna get upset because they acted upon the info you gave them.Lol. Again, defending the actions of Law, of Gov, while casting blame on the meek.


I'm not trying to do anything but help people to see the path they themselves chose to take.
Haha, there you go again maintaining your own personal innocence... puke.

Gods message. "Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth." :-*

Joe's message, "The meek are herd animals who deserve every tazing they receive because they were too lame to perform due diligence." >:D

[Joe King]

How did they even know you existed until you went to them and declared your status to them?
....and I got put in this boat same as everyone else. So please don't take what I am saying as a personal attack, because that's not what it is.


Also, why does Gods message give clues to whom it refers to as the wise?

[Son-of-Liberty]

Tag for later.

This type of law enforcement is bullshit. What a bunch of "heroes" just doing their job. "Make sure you're locked and loaded men! Raw milk dealers are the most dangerous of all criminals!"

[Joe King]

Tag for later.

This type of law enforcement is bullshit.
Keep in mind that the regulated system is what also allows for enforcement of things like public safety. Because without it, everyone would be their own King...so to speak.....and would thus have the Right to do anything they want until they cause actual harm to another.
In some respects, that would be a good thing to have, but do we really want everyone to have to learn why not to speed down residential streets by running over someones kid?
If the vast majority of the people could actually police themselves in a way that prevented themselves from causing harm to others, we wouldn't have ever needed the regulated system for anyone, and everyone could still be their own King too.


What a bunch of "heroes" just doing their job. "Make sure you're locked and loaded men! Raw milk dealers are the most dangerous of all criminals!"
As I said, I don't agree with the methods used in the raid. It seems to me they could have easily went and talked to the people about it and showed them the regs they agreed to, and then asked them to comply with what they agreed to.
Good communication can go a long way.

[Joe King]

We started buying raw milk from a goat farm to make our own goat cheese.
Are we criminals now?
I dunno.....but you could find out by calling the FDA. When they answer, ID yourself as a US person and then tell them what you are doing and then ask for their legal determination as to the legality of your individual situation.
....and you'll find out the answer to your question.

Or you could choose to just keep your cheese hole shut and enjoy your cheese. lol



Pimento, chives and a little garlic...it's quite good!I'm sure it is.

[Bigjon]

....and it all got started by the people not doing their own due diligence.


And they didn't replace it so much, moreso redefined it.

I don't believe that is true, I think there were people who recognized the fraud and wrote about it, but they had insufficient power to do anything about it.

The fact remains that the laws were put in place illegally by brute force and then left to smolder for 60 plus years before being used.

It is the fraud on the part of the government that allows us to get out of the "contract", as many people have.

[Joe King]

I don't believe that is true, I think there were people who recognized the fraud and wrote about it, but they had insufficient power to do anything about it. The point is that when all this mostly got started, the people went along so easily because these actions were mostly seen as what "saved" the country after the last big crash. ie '33
You know, that whole thing about the gov operating under the rule of necessity?

The matrix-like regulatory system we see today is, in large part, the govs "answer" to the great depression.
Go ask most old people who/what saved the country from the great depression.



The fact remains that the laws were put in place illegally by brute force and then left to smolder for 60 plus years before being used.
How could they be illegal if the peoples duly elected represenatives are the ones who enacted such laws?
Why did the people keep re-electing them? They must have liked how they were being represented.


It is the fraud on the part of the government that allows us to get out of the "contract", as many people have.I never said there wasn't a way out.
...but I wouldn't call fraud as much I would say they just didn't make everything crystal clear and spell it all out for people, thereby allowing them to make their own assumptions about what applied to them and whether they wanted benefits or not.


As far as the regulated system itself goes, the biggest problem I see in abandoning it society-wide is the fact that we've got people today who don't want to be responsible for themselves.
...and every one of 'em would have to learn their own hard lessons as to why they need to police themselves.

[keehah]

Listen Joe King, yes people make a deal with the Devil, trading work for thier fiat, understanding the conmen and crooks who are pretending to be the US Federal Government in a Marine Law game.

But the entire system denies it with all its might. But I will ignore the morality or lack of proper earth ecosystem functioning that comes from this deception, slavery, and goyinism clay men molding desert creating for argument's sake. Now lets focus on milk as an example of the denutritifying of our food.

Now your main argument in this thread is that just because people are interacting with the crooks in Washington, they loose the right to an economy where they can eat real food and can only eat food that has been made into poison that functions to keep people alive in a dull sick state (or whatever other torture they wish to try)?

Do you really think this is the truth of the situation?

Because if that is the case its time for revolution now. And the great thing about this type of torture being the trigger is that this is one of the best issues to unite everyone in overthrowing those behind these horrendous crimes.

And I would expect all the healthy lean activists with clear complextion and shiny eyes won't hurt the cause either.

[Joe King]

Keehah, It's not so much that they lose the Right completely, but rather have agreed to have it defined and regulated.
ie it's like a delegation of power to decide certain things for us and our natural Rights gets turned into civil Rights.
Speaking of which, when's the last time you've ever heard the gov refer to people as having unalienable Rights? Have they ever?


Has that regulatory system gone overboard? IMO, yes. Most definately. Because it ends up wanting to be everything to everybody and ends up not doing any of it effectively. {which is why the Founders were right in wanting the government to have limited powers. They knew what would happen if it didn't}


However, the whole regulatory system is kind of a double edged sword in that some good has come from it.
One of those ways is to ensure that when you go out to eat that you can be pretty sure that when you order a hamburger that it's ground beef and not ground dog or cat or whatever else they could get for cheap.
After all, as long as there's no regulations and you ate it all and didn't get sick, and therefore sue them, they can do whatever they want, right?

Or in the case of driving a car, do you really want every irresponsible person currently on the road to have to learn not to drive 50mph down a residential street by hitting someones kid?
If there were no regulations covering the activity, everyone could drive as fast as they wanted wherever they wanted as long as they don't create a victim, right?

Or when you stop to buy gas for the car, you can pretty well be assured that you actually got 17.8 gallons of gas without having to measure them yourself to know you weren't ripped off.



If people in our society could actually police themselves in a truly effective manner, and conduct themselves in such a way as to not harm others, we could do away with all the regulations right now.
Unfortunately, it seems that some people need to be regulated.

One of the bigger reasons that many of those regulations exist at all is only because some idiot{s} did something stupid and the gov reacts by over-regulating whatever it was they did.
Now times that by 85 years and 300+ million people, nearly half of which don't want to be responsible, not even for themselves, and then add in the politicians who feel they have to be seen as having done something about it, you get what it is we have here.
ie a regulatory system from hell.


Keep in mind that I don't like it anymore than you do, as I was born into the same leaky boat as everyone else.

All I'm saying is that people need to darn well start examing the "leaks", lest our boat completely sink.
....'cause just bailing water is not working anymore.

[keehah]

If people in our society could actually police themselves in a truly effective manner, and conduct themselves in such a way as to not harm others, we could do away with all the regulations right now.
Unfortunately, it seems that some people need to be regulated.

This talk is all fine and dandy. But it is not of our time and nor of our place. Right now we have a corporate food supply that wants to remove the competition of fresher, healthier food, and wants food (milk again) with shit and puss in it to be legally sold to the public and have long shelf life. They have joined with a corrupt elite with Machiavellian plans that also feed general sociopathic trend to control and tax or reptilian genes that just cannot turn off, to enslave and drain the peoples of the land they occupy. And yes its cheaper fiat wise. In the short term.

And a reminder: all this reptilian corruption is killing the planet's ability to sustain any of us in any quality, both in health and all the related GMO, herbicide, soil depletion, fossil fuel dependent, long supply chain, resistance pathogen enabling...

[Joe King]

I'm not really disputing any of those points Keehah.

I fully realize that's it's all become far too big and over-reaching. All I was doing in this thread was trying to point out the mechanism at work.

If people are just running around in circles because they fail to see the real issue, and then wondering why common law maxims do not apply, they'll never have a hope of fixing anything ever.
ie it's not voodoo, but rather just administrative law.


Understanding a problem is the first step in dealing with that problem in an effective manner.
Trying to apply a fix to a problem you don't understand is a crap-shoot, and oftentimes a dangerous one at that.
ie like trying to conduct your affairs in ways that violate your prior agreements, as that just makes them want to spill your milk.

[keehah]

No Joe King, I will not understand your problem. But I know the science, and my local Codex based 'free trade' regulations that plan to be your future as well.

I've already considered the potential of having to claim religous exemption from the corrupt affiars to participate in a local food share potlach program with the local reserve if they ever attack people for bartering between each other this way in the future.

Somes things will always be around I guess. :)

http://www.kwakiutl.bc.ca/culture/potlatch.htm

Often loans had to be called in in order to make enough gifts available. A system of loans and interest was an elaborate aspect of Kwakiutl life. Most public actions were financed by loans of white wool blankets, valued at one dollar each, which had been brought in by the Hudson's Bay Company early in the nineteenth century.

[Joe King]

It's not "my" problem just because I can see the mechanics of how the gov currently operates along with how the people have had role to play in it.

It's all of our problem. No one has a monopoly on it and just because you refuse to see it doesn't mean you aren't bound by it when you go sign up for whatever it is you signed up for.

Refusing to see how things actually work in the World you were born into and then wondering why you don't undertand what's going on, is an exercise in futility.

[Santa]

No one has a monopoly on itWhat? That's exactly why Government goons got sent in to stop those milk lovers and throw em into jail.
Because Government licenses and legitimizes monopolies, and protects the private interests who own them.

[po boy]

Raw Milk Update States are cracking down on raw milk producers 1/7 3 16 2008 http://library.georgegordon.com/node/1308

The rest can be found @ http://library.georgegordon.com/audio filter by year 2008 page 5

[Awoke]

Rawsome is a private food co-op, which is not open to the public.

Obama food safety chief and former Monsanto lawyer Michael R. Taylor today defended the FDA's sting operations and armed raids against raw milk producers, including Pennsylvania Amish farmer Dan Allgyer, who is facing an injunction for selling milk across state lines. None of Allgyer's milk was contaminated. The agency's actions are likely to put him out of business.

The FDA is in the midst of writing the critical regulations that will implement the Food Safety Modernization Act Congress passed last year with applause all around from the Obama administration, Democrats and Republicans despite ferocious opposition from small-farm advocates. The sweeping new law gives the agency extraordinary powers to detain foods on farms. It also denies farmers recourse to federal courts.


Won't be long before these farmers start going all "Joe Stack" on their ass....

[Joe King]

What? That's exactly why Government goons got sent in to stop those milk lovers and throw em into jail.
Because Government licenses and legitimizes monopolies, and protects the private interests who own them.The context was that it somehow was my problem alone.....ie the regulatory system that I am pointing out as the "problem".

See keehahs quote below. That's what I was answering when I said no one has a monopoly on it {"it" being the problem the regulatory system presents}


No Joe King, I will not understand your problem.

[Joe King]

Won't be long before these farmers start going all "Joe Stack" on their ass....

The correct answer would be to withdraw their consent.

Going "joe stack" on them would merely beget more violence.

[keehah]

Arguing against your bizarre straw man with nothing but a blast of diverting drama is your exercise in trollality.
My exercise in futility is attempting to converse man to man.

Do you understand my point?

The cops and partners for industrial foods are going "joe stack" on the commerce of the farmers and public for real food.

[Joe King]

...and my point is that arguing Common law in an Administrative law venue is what I see as futility. It's no wonder your pleas go unheard.

The cops and Courts are merely enforcing their system. Quit placing yourself in that venue and I'm with you 100%. I just don't have huge amounts of sympathy for people who don't care enough to understand what it is they are actually doing.

Do you understand my point?

[Santa]

...and my point is that arguing Common law in an Administrative law venue is what I see as futility. It's no wonder your pleas go unheard.

The cops and Courts are merely enforcing their system. Quit placing yourself in that venue and I'm with you 100%. I just don't have huge amounts of sympathy for people who don't care enough to understand what it is they are actually doing.

Do you understand my point?

Of course, you're really not hard to understand, Joe. And just to show I'm a reasonable fellow I'll avoid my usual snarkiness. :)

What you're saying is this.

Learn to play the Law game with existing game rules because you WILL be beaten and possibly hung if you don't.

Learn to play the Law game and you may be allowed to continue to work in the fields.

If you learn to say 'yes Massa' in a pleasing manner you may even be rewarded with extra food on your plate.

If you excel at AND you have a nice ass you may be invited to live in the big house to scrub the shit out of the Masters chamber pot.

And if you dumb ass field negroes can't follow those easy rules you deserve every lashing you get.

There, see? I know what you're saying,... You're saying the same thing every Uncle Tom throughout the ages always say. ;D

And no, I don't hates you, Joe. I jus don't want no muthafuckin skinny ass house nigga struttin all up in my face tryin to tells me how stoopid i iz... O0

Ok, I WAS snarky... sorry. But I do hope you get my point. ;D

[po boy]

I think what he's saying is if you don't like the rules of commerce then don't play.

If you know the fire is hot and still put your hand in it then you ain't too bright. Bitch all you want fire burns.

There are other games to play rather than commerce if you dydd.

[iOWNme]

I am going to go out on a limb here and try and bring this thread back on track. Im sure the Shills will flame me.

Timeline of FDA raids on raw milk farmers, dietary supplement makers and natural medicine practitioners


http://www.naturalnews.com/033280_FDA_raids_timeline.html



(NaturalNews) The US Food and Drug Administration has a long history of conducting armed, SWAT-style raids on farmers, cancer treatment pioneers and dietary supplement manufacturers. This list, compiled by the editors of NaturalNews, reveals only some of the hundreds of armed FDA raids that have been conducted in the last twenty-five years.

What you see from this is a pattern of government-sponsored terrorism against innocent Americans and small business people; all done in the name of "protecting" the public from milk, walnuts, vitamins, plants or fruit extracts. The real reason behind all this, of course, is that the FDA has long waged a campaign of fear and intimidation against natural product providers for the sole purpose of destroying the natural products industry and thereby handing Big Pharma a monopoly over health treatment medicines.

If you're skeptical of that conclusion, read the timeline and see for yourself. And if you're currently a farmer who might be targeted in a future FDA raid, be sure to read this helpful resource created by the Farm-to-Consumer Legal Defense Fund entitled How to Survive a Farm Raid:
http://www.ftcldf.org/farm-raids.html


- 1985, July 7. FDA agents raid the Burzynski Research Clinic (Texas), steal 200,000 medical and research documents, and force Dr. Stanislaw Burzynski to pay for copies to be made of them. No official charges are ever filed by the FDA (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1987, February 26. Twenty-five armed FDA agents and US Marshals storm offices of the Life Extension Foundation (Florida), terrorize employees and seize thousands of nutritional products, materials, computers, files, and newsletters. Eighty percent of seized items are later determined not to even have been on the warrant (http://www.naturalnews.com/021791.html).

- 1988, November. FDA agents raid Traco Labs (Illinois), seize several drums of black currant oil as well as many containers of encapsulated product. The FDA claims the capsules the oil was being put into are an "unapproved food additive" (http://www.drpasswater.com/nutritio... (http://www.drpasswater.com/nutrition_library/Nov_05/Murray_FDA_Struggle_final.html)).

- 1989, Summer. FDA agents seize entire inventory and business records of Pets Smell Free (Utah), a company that produces a natural product for eliminating pet odor. The company later wins a lawsuit against the FDA in court (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1990, October 6. Federal agents raid HA Lyons (Arizona), a women-run, home-based mailing service that publishes materials for vitamin companies. Armed agents seize all business records and literature, and even try to steal the owner's checkbook and cash. The FDA eventually drives the company out of business (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1990, Fall. FDA agents raid Highland Laboratories (Oregon), a company that produces vitamins and nutritional supplements. The agents do not present a warrant, but proceed to seize everything except for office furniture, and threaten employees with violence if they fail to comply (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1990, March. FDA agents raid Solid Gold Pet Foods (California), seize all pet food products without a warrant, and shut down the store. Owner Sissy Harrington-McGill is later indicted, and spends 179 days in prison with leg irons clasped to her legs (http://www.naturalnews.com/021791.html).

- 1990. Agents from both the FDA and US Postal Service twice raid Century Clinic (Nevada), and steal chelation products, computers, and various other equipment. No official charges are ever filed against the clinic, however both illegal raids go unpunished (http://www.naturalnews.com/021791.html).

- 1991, Fall. FDA agents raid Scientific Botanicals (Washington), a nutritional supplement company, and seize herbal extracts and literature. FDA strong-arms company into complying with its unlawful demands before agreeing to release seized products (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1991, December 12. RDA agents raid Thorne Research (Idaho), and seize $20,000 worth of vitamin products, and 11,000 pieces of literature. The company cannot afford to fight the battle in court because of high legal costs, and decides to no longer publish literature (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1991. FDA agents raid NutriCology (California), a nutritional supplement company. All FDA injunctions against it are later tossed out of court (http://www.naturalnews.com/021791.html).

- 1991. Agents from the FDA and the Texas Department of Health again raid the Burzynski Research Clinic (Texas), and seize more products and materials. Dr. Burzynski eventually wins the fight against the FDA (http://www.naturalnews.com/032998_B... (http://www.naturalnews.com/032998_Burzynski_cancer_cures.html)).

- 1991, March. Armed Mexican police officers raid offices of alternative cancer clinic in Tijuana, and kidnap the owner without warrant or charges. They then ship him across the US border and into the hands of the US Justice Department, where he unlawfully spends two years in prison (http://www.naturalnews.com/021791.html).

- 1992, May 6. Agents from the FDA and officers from the King County Police Department raid the Tahoma Clinic (Washington), a natural health clinic. Because Dr. Jonathan Wright has been giving patients injectable B vitamins in high doses, agents decide to storm the clinic with guns drawn, and seize product, computers, records, and other products. The FDA shows no valid warrant to justify its actions (http://www.naturalnews.com/021791.html).

- 1992, June 2. FDA agents raid the personal home of Mihai Popescu (California) for producing and selling a natural supplement called GH-3. The raid involves agents stealing $5,000 worth of GH-3, personal records, computers, and other equipment, and results in the false arrest and imprisonment of Popescu, as well as the termination of his business (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1992, June 30. FDA agents raid Nature's Way (Utah), a vitamin and nutritional supplement company, and seize bulk containers of primrose oil because the addition of vitamin E to the formula was allegedly "unapproved" (http://www.naturalnews.com/021791.html).

- 1992, June. The FDA prompts the Texas Department of Health to conduct raids on numerous health food stores throughout Texas. They seize natural oils, aloe vera, zinc, vitamin C, and other natural products. Agents reportedly threaten store owners not to speak of the raid, or more raids will ensue. No valid warrants are presented, and no charges are ever filed against the stores (http://www.naturalnews.com/021791.html).

- 1992, August 14. FDA agents raid Family Acupuncture Clinic (California), and seize $15,000 worth of natural tea pills. The products are left to spoil, and then sent back to China by the FDA (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1992. Federal agents arrest three vitamin company owners (California) for selling supplements freely available throughout Europe. Agents try to get the men imprisoned for a collective total of 990 years (http://www.naturalnews.com/021791.html).

- 1993, May. Agents from the FDA raid Zerbo's Health Food Store (Michigan) for "illegal drug trafficking" involving the natural supplements coenzyme Q10, selenium, carnitine, and GH-3. Agents threaten the owner's 78-year-old father with imprisonment if the family attempts to fight the FDA's indictment (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1993, May 12. Dozens of armed federal agents storm Hospital Santa Monica (California), an alternative cancer treatment center, seizing records, charts, computers, and other equipment. The agents also steal hundreds of thousands of dollars from the hospital's bank account, as well as from two vitamin companies with which it works, and even steal $80,000 from the hospital owner's personal safe (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1993, May 12. Agents raid personal home of Kirwin Whitnah, claim he is selling "unapproved drugs." No products are ever found, but agents proceed to terrorize a woman staying at the home, and seize thousands of dollars in equipment, literature, and even money orders (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1993, May 14. FDA agents raid Waco Natural Foods (Texas) in search of a natural supplement called deprenyl citrate. Owner Tom Wiggins tells agents that his attorney holds tremendous clout in the Waco area, and the agents immediately apologize, leave, and never return (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1993, June 24. FDA agents, a Federal Marshal, and a public relations specialist together raid International Nutrition Inc. (New Mexico), and seize $1 million worth of vitamins and nutritional supplements, as well as computers and business records. The owner ends up losing 80 percent of his business, and subsequently has to lay off 80 percent of his workforce (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 1993. Federal marshals raid Natural Vision International (Wisconsin), and steal 17,000 pairs of pinhole glasses that help customers exercise their eyes and improve vision. Valued at over $200,000, the confiscating of these products by the agents results in the company going out of business (http://www.myopia.org/fdaraids.htm).

- 2001, March 23. Forty armed federal agents and USDA officials storm Three Shepherd's Farm (Vermont), and confiscate and destroy the farm's entire flock of sheep for supposedly having mad cow disease. Government laboratories verify previously that the sheep are healthy, and that sheep cannot even contract the disease, but the USDA persists in eliminating them anyway, destroying evidence and breaking various other laws along the way (http://www.threeshepherdscheese.com... (http://www.threeshepherdscheese.com/AboutUs.aspx)).

- 2004, Spring. Upon being prompted by the FDA, state officials show up unannounced at Organic Pastures Dairy (California) and pretend to be evaluating cheese production. However OPD workers see Special Agent Jennifer King secretly taking pictures of private customer files, and they tell her to leave (http://grassfedonthehill.com/govern... (http://grassfedonthehill.com/government-overreach/)).

- 2005, June 23. Federal agents perform a series of raids on medical marijuana dispensaries, businesses, and personal homes throughout Northern California. They arrest many individuals along the way, despite the fact that marijuana dispensaries are legal in California (http://www.sddt.com/News/article.cf... (http://www.sddt.com/News/article.cfm?SourceCode=20050623cp)).

- 2006, March 6. Ohio police, Ohio Department of Agriculture officials, FDA agents, and agents from unmarked vehicles intercept a raw milk pickup in the Cincinnati area. They confiscate milk and harass customers, and leave farm owner Gary Oakes so shaken up that he is hospitalized three times for post-traumatic stress disorder (http://www.businessweek.com/smallbi... (http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/nov2006/sb20061121_167591_page_2.htm)).

- 2006, September 14. Armed agents storm the hunting preserve of Danny and Cindi Henshaw (Virginia), and perform SWAT-style raid of property They shoot dozens of hogs with 12-gauge shotguns and drag them off (http://www.readthehook.com/79983/co... (http://www.readthehook.com/79983/cover-boar-war-pig-slaughter-raises-questions)).

- 2006, October 6. Armed agents from the FBI and FDA arrive at Growers Express (California), a produce company, and begin searching the premises for evidence that the company's bagged spinach might be linked to an E. coli outbreak. Agents never even try contacting the company prior the raid, and find nothing in violation (http://www.naturalnews.com/020670.html).

- 2006, October 13. Michigan Department of Agriculture agents and police officers stop Richard Hebron on the way to deliver raw milk to cow share owners. Agents seize his cell phone and wallet, and proceed to unload 453 gallons of fresh milk from his truck. A six-month investigation finds Hebron innocent, but he gets stuck paying a $1,000 "administrative" fee (http://www.thecompletepatient.com/j... (http://www.thecompletepatient.com/journal/2006/10/28/whew-the-raw-milk-gets-delivered-in-michigan-and-richard-hebron-makes-it-home-safely.html)).

- 2006, November 21. Dozens of armed agents storm Glencolton Farms (Ontario), a farm that produces dairy among other things, poring through every building and structure on the property. They steal records, computers, and milk processing equipment. Farm owner Michael Schmidt, who provides raw milk to cow share owners, as well as other farm-fresh food, is fined $3,500 and placed on two years probation (http://www.glencoltonfarms.com/inde... (http://www.glencoltonfarms.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=26&Itemid=29)).

- 2007, August. Pennsylvania Mennonite farmer Mark Nolt declares his God-given right to sell fresh milk and has his farm raided by federal and state agents, who seize $25,000 worth of milk, milk products, and other equipment. (http://www.farmfoodvoicesdc.com/201... (http://www.farmfoodvoicesdc.com/2011/03/list-of-raids-agains-americas-)
small.html).

- 2007, September 21. FDA agents spur the Virginia Department of Agriculture & Consumer Services to raid Double H Farm (Virginia) and seize and destroy pork products. Agents try to justify their actions by claiming the products contain the wrong price tags. Owners say they have been needlessly harassed by officials for years (http://www.readthehook.com/76761/po... (http://www.readthehook.com/76761/pork-bust-local-farmers-arrested)).

- 2007, October 11. New York Department of Agriculture officials raid Meadowsweet Dairy (New York) and seize 260 pounds of raw milk products (http://ftcldf.org/meadowsweet%20dai... (http://ftcldf.org/meadowsweet%20dairy.html)).

- 2008, April 28. Agents again raid Mennonite farmer Mark Nolt's (Pennsylvania) property, and steal more milk, milk products, and equipment. This time, agents charge and take him into custody (http://www.ftcldf.org/aa/aa-26apr20... (http://www.ftcldf.org/aa/aa-26apr2008.htm)).

- 2008, December 15. Armed agents storm Manna Storehouse (Ohio), a family farmhouse that operates an organic food buying cooperative. Agents terrorize and hold family hostage for eight hours while ransacking house, and seizing food, computers, and records (http://www.ftcldf.org/press/press-1... (http://www.ftcldf.org/press/press-15dec2008.htm)).

- 2008, December 18. Agents pose as customers trying to buy goat cheese from Sharon Palmer's Healthy Family Farms (California). She is then arrested and thrown in jail, and her businesses temporarily shut down (http://www.thecompletepatient.com/j... (http://www.thecompletepatient.com/journal/2009/1/8/the-strange-case-of-a-ca-goat-farmers-arrest-and-jailing-sha.html)).

- 2009, April 8. Undercover agents trick daughter of farmers Armand and Teddi Bechard (Missouri) into selling them raw milk, which sparked harassment and extensive legal troubles for the family (http://www.naturalnews.com/030974_r... (http://www.naturalnews.com/030974_raw_milk_victory.html)).

- 2009, January 16. Federal marshals raid Cocoon Nutrition (South Carolina), a nutritional supplement company, and arrest owner Stephen Heuer at gunpoint (http://www.naturalnews.com/025347.html).

- 2010, April 14. Dozens of FDA, IRS, and FBI agents conduct full-scale raid on Maxam Nutraceuticals (Oregon). Company complies with all notices, but gets targeted anyway by a fully-armed, SWAT-style cadre of officers, who steal products, paperwork, computers, and personal files (http://www.naturalnews.com/032203_M... (http://www.naturalnews.com/032203_Maxam_Nutraceutics_FDA_raid.html)).

- 2010, April 20. Two FDA agents, two US Marshals, and one state trooper raid Rainbow Acres (Pennsylvania) at 5 am, breaking their warrant's restrictions instructing an inspection at "reasonable business hours." Agents scour the premises for hours and charge the farm with illegally selling raw milk across state lines (http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/aa/aa... (http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/aa/aa-26april2010.htm)).

- 2009, Fall. USDA inspector shows up at Dollarhite Family Farm (Missouri) and demands an inspection. After insisting there were no problems with the family's small-scale raising of bunny rabbits, USDA officials later try to fine the family $90,000 for alleged violations (http://www.naturalnews.com/032476_r... (http://www.naturalnews.com/032476_rabbits_USDA.html)).

- 2010, May 26. Officials from the Minnesota Department of Agriculture and the Minnesota Department of Health send armed deputies to raid Hartmann Farm (Minnesota). Agents order Mike and Diana Harmann to stop selling all meat and dairy products, and to stop delivering raw milk (http://www.ftcldf.org/food-freedom-... (http://www.ftcldf.org/food-freedom-under-attack-mn-kennedy.htm)).

- 2010, June 2. Agents from the Wisconsin Department of Agriculture, the Trade and Consumer Protection Agency, and local health officials, arrive unannounced at Hershberger Farm (Wisconsin). They violate private property signs, demand to do an inspection, and proceed to take shut coolers and order that raw milk be dumped in a field (http://www.ftcldf.org/news/WI-DATCP... (http://www.ftcldf.org/news/WI-DATCP-raids-hershberger-kennedy.htm)).

- 2010, June 10. Officials from various health and law enforcement agencies raid the personal home of Rae Lynn Sandvig (Minnesota), a raw milk and local food consumer, for allegedly "assisting in the sale of raw milk" from her home by sharing food with neighbors (http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/swarm... (http://www.farmtoconsumer.org/swarms/mn-mda-consumer-kennedy.htm)).

- 2010, June 30. Various federal agents, and even Canadian agents, raid Rawesome Foods (California), a private, raw food buying club, and steal computers, raw food products, and other materials. They hold members and workers hostage for many hours before finally leaving with hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of product (http://www.naturalnews.com/030136_R... (http://www.naturalnews.com/030136_Rawesome_foods_raid.html)).

- 2010, August 26. Agents show up at Morningland Dairy (Missouri) and confiscate cheese samples for testing. After improper handling of the samples, which allegedly return positive for contamination, the farm appeals. Officials then demand that the farm destroy its entire 50,000 pound inventory of raw, artisan cheese, valued at $250,000 (http://www.naturalnews.com/030148_M... (http://www.naturalnews.com/030148_Morningland_Dairy_food_tyranny.html)).

- 2010, September 21. Federal agents arrive unannounced at Camino de Paz Montessori School and Farm (New Mexico) on supposed suspicion of marijuana. After scouring the premises and terrorizing teachers and students, they find nothing but fruits, vegetables, and other produce (http://www.naturalnews.com/030573_m... (http://www.naturalnews.com/030573_marijuana_raids.html)).

- 2010, September 21. After years of fighting back against federal tyranny, the Christian church ministry Daniel Chapter One (Rhode Island) is raided by agents from the FDA, IRS, the US Army Criminal Investigation Command and several other agencies. Agents break into the home of owners and steal computers, paperwork, files, personal documents, and hold owner at gunpoint (http://www.naturalnews.com/033265_D... (http://www.naturalnews.com/033265_Daniel_Chapter_One_government_raids.html)).

- 2010, October 15. Georgia State Department of Agriculture officials illegally search raw milk buying club truck without warrant, seizes and orders 110 gallons of product to be dumped (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMfQ... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMfQXxVAPgk)).

- 2011, March 9. Minnesota officials again target Hartmann Farms (Minnesota), this time going after James Roettger, a man who helps distribute the farm's food. Agents pull Roettger over while driving, seize as much as $6,000 worth of food from his van, and arrest him (http://www.thecompletepatient.com/j... (http://www.thecompletepatient.com/journal/2011/3/10/what-do-you-call-the-mn-campaign-against-nutrient-dense-food.html)).

- 2011, June 3. At the prompting of the FDA US Marshals raid Wyldewood Cellars (Kansas), producer of natural elderberry juice, and confiscate the entire stock of product, claiming it is an "unapproved drug" (http://www.naturalnews.com/032631_e... (http://www.naturalnews.com/032631_elderberry_juice_FDA_raid.html)).

- 2011, August 3. Slew of agents conduct second raid on Rawesome Foods (California), a private, raw buying club, and confiscate everything in sight. They handcuff and arrest founder James Stewart, without warrant, and proceed to destroy the shop's entire food inventory (http://www.naturalnews.com/033220_R... (http://www.naturalnews.com/033220_Rawesome_Foods_armed_raids.html)).