Full home ownership vs. mortgage

[FreeEnergy]

Please help me find this chart that shows US yearly full home ownership (paid off) vs. mortgages, from back into 1960-ies to now. It shows as an excellent example of how (and when) bankers completely took over the economy.

[Dogman]

Please help me find this chart that shows US yearly full home ownership (paid off) vs. mortgages, from back into 1960-ies to now. It shows as an excellent example of how (and when) bankers completely took over the economy.Back in the day 60's alot of morgages were held by savings and loans and not banks. At least that who we got the loan to build the house and made the payments to.

Cannot remember the year that banks were allowed to do the same as savings and loans , late 70-80's? before the S/L meltdown?

[FreeEnergy]

Well, there's a graph that shows "free and clear ownership", going pretty high, maybe up to 60%(?) in US, don't know the years, maybe close to 1970-ies. Then it collapses down pretty badly. My number here may be off, just remember seeing it.

Want to find that chart to illustrate a point to someone.

This is one of these, but only shows the last few years and doesn't actually display full picture of the mortgage disaster everyone has been put through. This one shows the end of "real estate bubble" ("mortgage fraud bubble" would be the right terminology), but you can see late 2006 and 2007 that mortgage debt explodes up and assets implode.

http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2010/3/11/saupload_10_03_11_z1_households_2_thumb1.png

[Dogman]

Well, there's a graph that shows "free and clear ownership", going pretty high, maybe up to 60%(?) in US, don't know the years, maybe close to 1970-ies. Then it collapses down pretty badly. My number here may be off, just remember seeing it.

Want to find that chart to illustrate a point to someone. Saw something like that quite a long time ago. In the time frame of the 60's into maybe late 80's people were building houses that they could pay off and did, house's were not treated as piggy banks to be raided on a whim.

[FreeEnergy]

Exactly. I haven't been here long enough, but that's what my old neighbors say.

And I saw a pretty stunning graph to illustrate that point. Can stick that one up any banker' or mortgage broker's arse.

[ximmy]

I'd like to see that chart too.. I've noticed things like this are being removed from the internets...

[chad]

just watch any television show from the 1950s through the 1960s. this point is illustrated perfectly. in the 1970s everyone began going full retard.

[Gaillo]

"Full" home ownership = almost 0% in this country...
Even if the mortgage is paid off, you're still renting your property from the government (in the form of property taxes). Don't believe me? Just stop paying your property taxes and find out who TRULY owns your home! :(

[Dogman]

"Full" home ownership = almost 0% in this country...
Even if the mortgage is paid off, you're still renting your property from the government (in the form of property taxes). Don't believe me? Just stop paying your property taxes and find out who TRULY owns your home! :( Agreed! But splitting hairs! ;)



;D

[ximmy]

"Full" home ownership = almost 0% in this country...
Even if the mortgage is paid off, you're still renting your property from the government (in the form of property taxes). Don't believe me? Just stop paying your property taxes and find out who TRULY owns your home! :(

no profit when I sell???

[Gaillo]

no profit when I sell???

I'm not saying that... I'm just saying that BEFORE you sell, "ownership" is the wrong word/concept.

Let's say that .gov raised your property tax tomorrow to $500,000 per year (and BELIEVE ME, they could if they wanted to!) - how much "profit" could you then expect from selling "your" property when nobody wants to touch it because of the high taxes?

The power to tax is the power to destroy... or to steal! :(

[Libertytree]

Anytime any government can hold a gun, even an economic gun to anyones head for its own gains it is tyranny thus nullifying the false perception of property ownership. There is NO such thing as property ownership.

[ximmy]

Anytime any government can hold a gun, even an economic gun to anyones head for its own gains it is tyranny thus nullifying the false perception of property ownership. There is NO such thing as property ownership.

No profit when I sell???

[Libertytree]

No profit when I sell???

Profit is one thing, the fact that you're transferring non property ownership to someone else that can't own it either is the crux of the matter.

[ximmy]

Profit is one thing, the fact that you're transferring non property ownership to someone else that can't own it either is the crux of the matter.

so... for a "home occupier" like me it really doesn't matter...

[Libertytree]

so... for a "home occupier" like me it really doesn't matter...

Yep, you're a squatter.

[Ponce]

Right now it cost me $50.00 a month to live here (house tax) when I bought the house in 2000 it was $23.00......but.......better than paying $800.00, or more, a month to rent an apartment.

The trouble began when people decided that a house was an investment and not a home.....a home to me means security and roots in your life..................unless you have a lot of crap, as I do, where you then become a slave and always on guard.

[platinumdude]

I have a home paid for and only pay $800 a year on property tax.

[Libertytree]

I have a home paid for and only pay $800 a year on property tax.

Only?

[Gaillo]

I have a home paid for and only pay $800 a year on property tax.

That's like saying you were beaten and robbed outside the gas station, but they ONLY kicked you in the nuts once, and ONLY took $40 of the cash you were carrying - so it's cool!

Thievery, oppression, and economic slavery have no "degrees" of wrongness, contrary to popular fluoride-head public school indoctrinated opinion.

[k-os]

Only?

I would feel so grateful if I only paid 800 a year for property taxes.

[Gaillo]

I would feel so grateful if I only paid 800 a year for property taxes.

Would you also be "Grateful" if armed thugs showed up at your doorstep and told you that you can still live in your house, but you have to give them your car to keep it, and not your motor-home too? Grateful that they're only stealing $800 of your hard-earned money? ??? I don't understand that mindset - $8 is too much... in fact $0.08 is too much! Damnit... theft is theft is theft - it's NOT alright if it's "small enough" by degree!

I'd feel "grateful" if this country returned to being a constitutional Republic that valued and protected individual property rights...

This crony-"capitalist" plutocratic oligarchic thugocracy is getting old! :(

[k-os]

Would you also be "Grateful" if armed thugs showed up at your doorstep and told you that you can still live in your house, but you have to give them your car to keep it, and not your motor-home too? Grateful that they're only stealing $800 of your hard-earned money? ??? I don't understand that mindset - $8 is too much... in fact $0.08 is too much! Damnit... theft is theft is theft - it's NOT alright if it's "small enough" by degree!

I'd feel "grateful" if this country returned to being a constitutional Republic that valued and protected individual property rights...

This crony-"capitalist" plutocratic oligarchic thugocracy is getting old! :(

I see where you are coming from. I am just saying that $800 is cheap for me.

[ximmy]

When I bought my house I asked about sales tax on it. They said you will pay property tax instead. I don't mind paying property tax, it pays for fire services, streets, sidewalks, streetlights, gutters, etc. These things I am happy to have.

Sales tax and all hidden taxes are what piss me off... I wonder how much tax a dollar generates in it's life, being exchanged between consumer and business.

[Joe King]

When I bought my house I asked about sales tax on it. They said you will pay property tax instead. I don't mind paying property tax, it pays for fire services, streets, sidewalks, streetlights, gutters, etc. These things I am happy to have.
That's a valid point Ximmy. Most people rely on having access to those services.
However, I think a better way would be to apply the tax to the person as opposed to the property.
ie once a year add up all the costs the city incurs and then divide by the number of people in the city and then send each one of them a bill for services rendered.



Sales tax and all hidden taxes are what piss me off... I wonder how much tax a dollar generates in it's life, being exchanged between consumer and business.At some point they'd probably get all of the original Dollar spent.

[Joe King]

Can we privatize the city work first, so we are not paying for this?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_SCfwBkF65oY/SX8zpnnSaUI/AAAAAAAAKHY/AHYMxNmXqHc/s400/Working+NYC+Style+2.jpgYou're already paying for it under the current system of taxation, so what would be the difference in how it's collected?

[Hatha Sunahara]

There actually is ownership in the world. It rests with the 'ownership class'. The top 1% who own enough to be able to hire people to steal from everybody else. Or to kill them.

The real fault of humanity is its inclination to obey orders in exchange for money. That makes it so virtually everybody owns virtually nothing, and the top 1% are protected in their ownership of everything.


Hatha

[BabushkaLady]

We've had this discussion before . . . we don't really own any property.

We could and have argued the theft of property taxes; however I haven't figured a way out of them YET.

You do have control over which lord and feudal society (state) you are willing to contribute to though.

[Sparky]

This is the closest chart I could find, which shows the fraction of owner equity since 1952. It doesn't indicate the fraction of houses that are owned outright, but it does show the fraction of real estate equity that is owned by owners compared to the fraction that is owned by banks, which I think gets at the change in indebtedness over the decades.

Reading the text, it's not clear if these numbers are actual or derived. But here's the chart, and the link:



http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2010/4/16/saupload_homeowner_equity1952_10_thumb1.png (http://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2010/4/16/saupload_homeowner_equity1952_10.png)

http://seekingalpha.com/article/199135-housing-and-the-end-of-upward-mobility-in-the-u-s

[Twisted Titan]

There actually is ownership in the world. It rests with the 'ownership class'. The top 1% who own enough to be able to hire people to steal from everybody else. Or to kill them.

The real fault of humanity is its inclination to obey orders in exchange for money. That makes it so virtually everybody owns virtually nothing, and the top 1% are protected in their ownership of everything.



Hatha


That is why they are hellbent on getting your childeren into public schooling......so they can get those serrated meathooks in their mind when they are the most malleable.

[chad]

i pay $3,200 property tax and have:

no police service (sheriff)
no fire department (volunteer you have to pay for)
no sewer/water (well + septic i pay for)
no garbage pick up (private service)
send my kids to private school
no plow service (do it myself with my tractor)

keep trying to figure out what i'm getting for $3,200 every year.

only people who own property should be able to vote for property tax increases.

[Joe King]

See? ^^^ It's stuff like that, that makes me say that if anyone is going to pay a tax, everyone should pay the same exact $ amount so there's no advantage for anyone.
...and it should be on people as opposed to peoples property.

As long as gov can get more from some than others, there's no real accounting for the true cost of gov because it hides what its true cost for services rendered actually are.

Imagine if goods at the store were priced the way your gov is priced via property taxes.

[mrnhtbr2232]

keep trying to figure out what i'm getting for $3,200 every year...

A postponement of taking on the Sheriff's SWAT team comes to mind. Government sees your land and improvements as theirs to hold hostage. They set the appraised value whether it's realistic or not and operate on the theory put forth by Henry George that the community creates the value and therefore the community should benefit. Through twisted logic that becomes the justification to tax you for services whether you use them or not.

[mick silver]

there alot of old timer around here and there places are pay for they talk about this all the time till i said you dont own nothing , will it mine i payed for it . then i said just stop paying taxes and lets see if it is yours ... they got the point then they got mad ... anyone one else think about when the price of a home was drove up was to help the gov get more tax money. did the gov do this to get more tax funds in there hands?

[platinumdude]

You don't have to be old to have your home paid off. Some of us well off pay it off early.

[solid]

See? ^^^ It's stuff like that, that makes me say that if anyone is going to pay a tax, everyone should pay the same exact $ amount so there's no advantage for anyone.
...and it should be on people as opposed to peoples property.

As long as gov can get more from some than others, there's no real accounting for the true cost of gov because it hides what its true cost for services rendered actually are.

Imagine if goods at the store were priced the way your gov is priced via property taxes.

I agree, I also agree with Ximmy. Taxes should also be based upon how much local services you get as well. In Chad's case, that is beyond ridiculous and extortion.

I have a question though...don't property taxes also pay for the government protecting your rights as a homeowner to some extent?

For example, if there was no taxes and you were left to guarantee your rights to protect your land, you'd have to be able to protect it. "if you don't hold it, you don't own it". Say a large group of squatters came along and started building on a remote section of your land. You have legal right to get help from the government legally to stop them, get them arrested for trespassing, etc. If you didn't, you'd have to strong arm them off your property by yourself. That help should be factored into the taxes as well, shouldn't it? Perhaps we should have the choice on that one, make taxes optional, yet if you choose to not pay taxes, you take that responsibility on your own shoulders.

[po boy]

We've had this discussion before . . . we don't really own any property.

We could and have argued the theft of property taxes; however I haven't figured a way out of them YET.

You do have control over which lord and feudal society (state) you are willing to contribute to though.


They Own It All (Including You)!: By Means of Toxic Currency
http://www.amazon.com/They-Own-All-Including-You/dp/1439233616

[solid]

That doesn't and will never work and is easy to prove that it won't.

How many people every year elect not to purchase flood insurance and then as soon as a flood destroys their home they jump in line for a check to repair said damages?

I guess that was my question. Whether or not property taxes (or lack there of) could be lumped together with any other entitlement program we complain about. There's no free ride.

[po boy]

If people want services those should be paid on an individual basis.
You want a side walk open your wallet but don't force people to pay for what you want.

[mick silver]

the gov help pump up the price of homes , do anyone think they could of done this so they could get more tax money out of everyone ? what i dont get is if home prices have drop why have the taxes NOT

[FreeEnergy]

Guys, this is not about "real" ownership or not. The .GOV has a power to tax and take away pretty much everywhere. Had everywhere before. It was a lucky shot and a short-lived initiative that US didn't have it for a while, and TPTB isn't likely to allow it back IMHO (unless you all plan to take over TPTB, which I don't see happening)

Sparky, that's a good chart, thanks. Not the one I've seen, so there's another one out there.

[chad]

to expound on the foolishness of my situation, 2 years ago when gas was $4.35 a gallon or something, they tried adding on a fuel surcharge tax on everyone's property tax bill. i think everyone was supposed to pay $80 a kid or something to help them offset the unexpected rise in fuel costs. i had just bought the property and the people before me were obligated to pay the taxes for that year per the purchase agreement, so i don't know what ever happened to it, but i've never heard of surcharges being added on to property tax bills. the next year's taxes were the same amount, so i guess they must have dropped it, but that's pretty ballsy.

[po boy]

It won't work for such things as sidewalks because who is going to monitor who has payed to use it and who hasn't but it would be easy to implement into other things such as schools, I pay just as much in property taxes for schools as my neighbors do but I don't have kids like they do, they constantly vote yes on every school levy because it benefits them, whereas I vote No on every levy because I feel having kids is a choice and the parents should shoulder the expense for making that choice.

I know it wouldn't work just pointing out that if it were to work that way there would be a lot less of these benefits that people have come to expect.

I agree with you on the school issue it is a choice and should be their responsibility alone. It kind of reminds me of Hillary Clinton's it takes a village.

It's communism.

Property taxes and taxes in general are extortion. I don't like being extorted and don't want anyone extorting money from others on my behalf no matter how beneficial it may be for me.

[mick silver]

New Home Sales Fall, 2011 Could Be the Worst Year Yet
...Housing remains the weakest part of the economy. Last year was the worst for new-home sales on records that go back nearly 50 years. ... While new homes represent less than one-fifth of the housing market, they have an outsize impact on the economy. Each home built creates an average of three jobs and $90,000 in taxes, according to the National Association of Home Builders. ... Analysts said the report was further proof that the housing market is stuck in the doldrums. "How much longer can we flat-line on housing?' said M. Cary Leahey, senior economist at Decision Economics. – AP
Dominant Social Theme: Trust us and don't worry about the housing market as the rebound is just around the corner.
Free-Market Analysis: The collapse in the real estate market is a result of earlier easy money policies by the Federal Reserve. We believe the biggest housing bubble in US history will likely be followed by the worst housing bust in US history.
Housing prices have fallen more than during the Great Depression (javascript:showWindow(500,800,'/floatWindow.cfm?id=2305');) and after the depression prices did not recover to pre-depression levels until after a world war and 19 years had elapsed. America, Spain, England and other nations caught up in the housing bubble have a long way to go.
There are other nations and regions outside the US where real estate might be a good investment for geo-political diversification and as a currency play against the dollar.

[SLV^GLD]

no profit when I sell???

The correct turn of phrase is "beneficial use" as opposed to "ownership".

[Joe King]

I agree, I also agree with Ximmy. Taxes should also be based upon how much local services you get as well. In Chad's case, that is beyond ridiculous and extortion.

I have a question though...don't property taxes also pay for the government protecting your rights as a homeowner to some extent?

For example, if there was no taxes and you were left to guarantee your rights to protect your land, you'd have to be able to protect it. "if you don't hold it, you don't own it". Say a large group of squatters came along and started building on a remote section of your land. You have legal right to get help from the government legally to stop them, get them arrested for trespassing, etc. If you didn't, you'd have to strong arm them off your property by yourself. That help should be factored into the taxes as well, shouldn't it? Perhaps we should have the choice on that one, make taxes optional, yet if you choose to not pay taxes, you take that responsibility on your own shoulders.Why can't there just be a local "cost of government" that everyone who choses to live in that community, pays?
ie if your town decides that it wants sidewalks on all the streets, divide the cost of installing sidewalks and then send everyone living in that town an equal $ bill for sidewalks.

Apply it to police/sheriff/fire/any other publicly provided service a particular towns people may decide they want.
That's not to say "free" electric or water either. On consumables you pay for what you use.
Otherwise, all gov costs are equally divided.

Again, think how milk is priced.
ie one price for everyone.

[chad]

Why can't there just be a local "cost of government" that everyone who choses to live in that community, pays?
ie if your town decides that it wants sidewalks on all the streets, divide the cost of installing sidewalks and then send everyone living in that town an equal $ bill for sidewalks.

Apply it to police/sheriff/fire/any other publicly provided service a particular towns people may decide they want.
That's not to say "free" electric or water either. On consumables you pay for what you use.
Otherwise, all gov costs are equally divided.

Again, think how milk is priced.
ie one price for everyone.

because "poor people" don't have any money and they vote.

[Joe King]

That's my whole point. That the gov would become extremely limited by the $ amount it could actually collect, and that would therefore strictly limit govs role to wholly legitimate business of gov.
...and so what if poor people can vote?

[chad]

That's my whole point. That the gov would become extremely limited by the $ amount it could actually collect, and that would therefore strictly limit govs role to wholly legitimate business of gov.
...and so what if poor people can vote?

poor people always vote for people who tell them don't worry, you won't have to pay anything if you elect me." so poor people will vote in people who exempt them from the milk buying experiment and give them the milk for free instead.

i agree with your premise though. just don't have any faith in the government to follow through and keep it the same for everyone.

[Joe King]

poor people always vote for people who tell them don't worry, you won't have to pay anything if you elect me." so poor people will vote in people who exempt them from the milk buying experiment and give them the milk for free instead.But that wouldn't be an option anymore.
ie the only thing vote-wise anyone could do would be to raise or lower their own bill. A vote to tax another is but a vote to tax yourself by the same amount.



i agree with your premise though. just don't have any faith in the government to follow through and keep it the same for everyone.Because under the current system there's no incentive for the gov to keep itself in-check.

[horseshoe3]

When I bought my house I asked about sales tax on it. They said you will pay property tax instead. I don't mind paying property tax, it pays for fire services, streets, sidewalks, streetlights, gutters, etc. These things I am happy to have.

Sales tax and all hidden taxes are what piss me off... I wonder how much tax a dollar generates in it's life, being exchanged between consumer and business.

Actually, very little of your property tax goes to those things. Most of it goes to the government indoctrination center/babysitting service for detached parents.

[horseshoe3]

because "poor people" don't have any money and they vote.


That's my whole point. That the gov would become extremely limited by the $ amount it could actually collect, and that would therefore strictly limit govs role to wholly legitimate business of gov.
...and so what if poor people can vote?

In the early days of this country, the only direct tax was property tax. But the only people who could vote were property owners, so it worked out. Allowing people to vote when they have no financial stake in the government is a terrible idea.

[Joe King]

In the early days of this country, the only direct tax was property tax. But the only people who could vote were property owners, so it worked out. Allowing people to vote when they have no financial stake in the government is a terrible idea.
If they have to pay too, why shouldn't they also get to vote?
ie why not put the tax on the people as opposed to property? After all, it is people who actually pay all taxes already.

The only downside I can see would be from the govs perspective as it would eliminate their virtually unlimited revenue stream.

Getting the gov to go for that idea would be another matter I realize, but I'm just trying to offer a solution to our current bloated and over-bearing gov.

[BabushkaLady]

Guys, this is not about "real" ownership or not. The .GOV has a power to tax and take away pretty much everywhere. Had everywhere before. It was a lucky shot and a short-lived initiative that US didn't have it for a while, and TPTB isn't likely to allow it back IMHO (unless you all plan to take over TPTB, which I don't see happening)

Sparky, that's a good chart, thanks. Not the one I've seen, so there's another one out there.

Here's some pretty good charts and information:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/08/05/Wheelock.pdf

See Figure 3 & 4

ETA: It's not the one I'm looking for; but still interesting reading.

[Cebu_4_2]

Here's some pretty good charts and information:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/publications/review/08/05/Wheelock.pdf

See Figure 3 & 4

ETA: It's not the one I'm looking for; but still interesting reading.

I would love to see them charts extending to 2011 but that would probably be government adjusted to show there is no problem today.

[Sparky]

the gov help pump up the price of homes , do anyone think they could of done this so they could get more tax money out of everyone ? what i dont get is if home prices have drop why have the taxes NOT

Because home prices are only used to determine relative taxes. Real estate taxes went up much slower than house prices went up during the boom.