Microwave = Farraday Cage

[beefsteak]

Learned something new today after reading the following:

Microwave = faraday cage

When heating items in a microwave you are actually passing a physical wave through a substance. Like shooting an arrow at a target. That’s why a microwave door has all them dots on it. It’s to stop radiation leakage. The cooking chamber itself is a Faraday cage which prevents the microwaves from escaping.

The door usually has a window for viewing, but the window has a layer of conductive mesh some distance from the outer panel to maintain the shielding. Because the size of the perforations in the mesh is much less than the microwaves' wavelength, most of the microwave radiation cannot pass through the door, while visible light (with a much shorter wavelength) can.

==============
I'm open to opinions about my thoughts about storing "previous generation" electronics which I consider my "backup technology" in the event of an EMP, in a large microwave cavity.

I've seen the home built version of the garbage can with lead liner Faraday Cage, but this looks simplier, frankly.

Sure would appreciate the electrical/prep savvy guys/gals weighing in on the paragraph quoted above and my goal /thoughts below the "dotted line." :)


beefsteak

[Dogman]

Learned something new today after reading the following:

Microwave = faraday cage

When heating items in a microwave you are actually passing a physical wave through a substance. Like shooting an arrow at a target. That’s why a microwave door has all them dots on it. It’s to stop radiation leakage. The cooking chamber itself is a Faraday cage which prevents the microwaves from escaping.

The door usually has a window for viewing, but the window has a layer of conductive mesh some distance from the outer panel to maintain the shielding. Because the size of the perforations in the mesh is much less than the microwaves' wavelength, most of the microwave radiation cannot pass through the door, while visible light (with a much shorter wavelength) can.

==============
I'm open to opinions about my thoughts about storing "previous generation" electronics which I consider my "backup technology" in the event of an EMP, in a large microwave cavity.

I've seen the home built version of the garbage can with lead liner Faraday Cage, but this looks simplier, frankly.

Sure would appreciate the electrical/prep savvy guys/gals weighing in on the paragraph quoted above and my goal /thoughts below the "dotted line." :)


beefsteak Just find a large metal trash can with tight fitting lid....Done!

[Gaillo]

Just find a large metal trash can with tight fitting lid....Done!

That.

If you want to "be sure" about it, though, get 2 metal trashcans with lids with one being smaller in size, and nest them.

One caveat about using a microwave oven as a faraday cage is that the window "mesh" is designed to be opaque to MICROWAVE frequencies... other wavelengths will pass right through it as if it wasn't there, with varying levels of efficiency (depending on the frequency). For nuke-generated EMP (broad spectrum), it would amount to essentially ZERO protection.

[Dogman]

Yes a microwave will work just fine! but you are limited in what you can store in them because of the size. If you do not have anything bulky and what you want to protect will fit, you are fine using what you have. I threw metal trash cans into the mix because they can hold much much more in them.

Hope this helps!

[Joe King]

When heating items in a microwave you are actually passing a physical wave through a substance. Like shooting an arrow at a target.Now that you have the answer to your question, I was wondering if you'd ever tried the grape experiment to demonstrate the conversion of microwave energy into electrical energy?

It's a good show, for sure.

http://www.barnesos.net/homepage/lpl/grapeplasma/



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb6WCkC0K1I&feature=related

[Cebu_4_2]

Yep works just like that :o

[Silver Moon Rising]

A microwave oven is NOT a Faraday cage! Here's a simple test to prove it to yourself:

Put your cell phone inside the microwave oven and close the door.
Now dial your cell phone number and see if it rings. It will.

Now if a low-power cell phone signal can get through your "Faraday cage",
then imagine what a high-power EMP signal will do. :o

[7th trump]

Hahahahaha................
Thanks Dogman for the laugh.........and your absolutely correct about the trash can as long as its mechanically bonded to an electrical ground. Otherwise the the whole trash can will charge up and discharge per microwave frequencies inside the can.
The trash can is like the ear drum it charges and discharges like the ear drum passing sound waves and some will get through if not properly grounded.
Study the muffler to get a better idea how frequencies cancel each other out like specific sized muffler chambers cancels out sound.

[gunDriller]

Just find a large metal trash can with tight fitting lid....Done!

it's done after you solder the lid to the can, which is a possibility if the materials are right.


the Microwave oven provides some shielding at microwave frequencies.

to see how it shields above (IR & visible light spectrum) & below (e.g. 20 kHz).

the times when i have gotten extra good shielding as a design engineer (designing EMI shielding was a big part of my job for 24 years) - i often used 2 or 3 layers of shielding.

the best shielded enclosure i ever designed, we tested at 143 dB of isolation from about 1 MHz up to about 2.5 GHz. so it still might have performed crappy at 20 kHz or 60 Hz or 40 GHz, in an EMP circumstance.


the general process is similar to making something light-proof or water-proof, except you are using conductive materials.

if you took a shop class in high school and soldered a tin box, you also made something with good EMI shielding characteristics.


if you can put the microwave oven in another steel metal box, that will help attenuate EMI if there is an EMP event.


the trade-off that you often run into in designing something that's shielded well is, it works good if you use one screw every linear inch. but then you have a lot of screws to remove if you want to access what's in the box.

so the design process involves creating an enclosure that's shielded as well as if there was a screw every inch, but without using that brute-force technique.

I suggest taking apart some old cell-phones. they are full of EMI shielding devices & techniques. also, most Apple computers are real well designed from the point of view of shielding (though they're not designed for EMP).

[Spectrism]

That.

If you want to "be sure" about it, though, get 2 metal trashcans with lids with one being smaller in size, and nest them.

One caveat about using a microwave oven as a faraday cage is that the window "mesh" is designed to be opaque to MICROWAVE frequencies... other wavelengths will pass right through it as if it wasn't there, with varying levels of efficiency (depending on the frequency). For nuke-generated EMP (broad spectrum), it would amount to essentially ZERO protection.

The only concern I have for that is the potential to create a giant capacitor. If there is an insulation between the two metal cans, or even just air space with no conducting link, the inner can will be the opposite charge of the outer. That size could zap someone good.

[DMac]

Related article:
http://preparednesspro.wordpress.com/2009/06/18/emp-101-part-iv-faraday-cage/

[Dogman]

Yes it can be a pain to make something totally leak proof. But the types of shielding or what can be used is keeping the thought of not so much as total shielding but more in the line of being to attenuate the energy enough so damage is not done to what is being protected. In many cases extremisms are not necessary, but that would depend on how close the energy pulse was to what you had protected.

Sure you can weld/solder , etc, up a box and what is inside will be protected. But imho in most cases going to extreams are not necessary. And if what caused the pulse was that close, you probably would not be around any more anyway.

[DMac]

According to the article I posted above, in a nutshell, use the 2 metal garbage can idea Gaillo/Dogman bring up (with at least 1 sealed). Only caveat is it will need to be buried at least 2 feet deep underground.

[Santa]

According to the article I posted above, in a nutshell, use the 2 metal garbage can idea Gaillo/Dogman bring up (with at least 1 sealed). Only caveat is it will need to be buried at least 2 feet deep underground.

And don't forget to toss the microwave into the can before you solder it up and bury it. Lol

[joboo]

Solder a wire lead from the trash can and plug it into the ground in a spare electrical socket. The lid should conduct fine to the base.

[vacuum]

I had always heard about nuclear emp but always kind of shrugged it off.....until I read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse#Characteristics_of_nuclear_E MP

Yeah, it is a very big deal. I had thought if it happened in a city 50 miles away there would be little effect. And even if it did, it would primarily fry only items that had rather long wires connected to them (like a PC connected to your house). That article talks about a power density of 6.6 megawatts per square meter on the ground.

[vacuum]

Solder a wire lead from the trash can and plug it into the ground in a spare electrical socket. The lid should conduct fine to the base.
The amount of inductance in that wire lead, and then in the rest of the wiring in your house before getting to ground, means it will do almost nothing.

[Dogman]

The amount of inductance in that wire lead, and then in the rest of the wiring in your house before getting to ground, means it will do almost nothing. Agree,

Think of just the trashcan alone and ungrounded, now think of people in a car in a thunderstorm or power line drops on it. The lightning bolt will not harm the people inside because the energy passes around them (car body) to ground) and the power line on the car will electrify the car and all metal but if the people in the car do not provide a path to ground for the current, they are safe. A metal trash can will do the same.

[joboo]

The amount of inductance in that wire lead, and then in the rest of the wiring in your house before getting to ground, means it will do almost nothing.

I suppose it could all be run into some equations to find out how much. Used to back in the day all the time.

Up the gauge, shorten the length, and hit some copper drain plumbing. Done.

[joboo]

Agree,

Think of just the trashcan alone and ungrounded, now think of people in a car in a thunderstorm or power line drops on it. The lightning bolt will not harm the people inside because the energy passes around them (car body) to ground) and the power line on the car will electrify the car and all metal but if the people in the car do not provide a path to ground for the current, they are safe. A metal trash can will do the same.

What youhave there is a big capacitor. Try getting out of that car in a hurry.

[vacuum]

I'm just basing it off of PCB board design. When you've got long traces and vias when you need a low inductance connection for, say, a decoupling cap, it really messes things up. To ensure things will truly work, its best to have the length to thickness of your conductor be some non-tiny ratio.

[Dogman]

What youhave there is a big capacitor. Try getting out of that car in a hurry. That is the thing you do not! Until the charge is removed .

[joboo]

That is the thing you do not! Until the charge is removed .

I always though about if that happened to me. Find a field with some tall grass I guess.

Actually I was just reading you don't even have to have an airtight metal cotainer, or even bother grounding it. A trash can would work fine on it's own, or metal ammo container, tobacco tin, etc...as long as the contents are not touching the sides....use wadded up paper, to insulate it. That, and only low voltage circuits are really a problem, generators, electric motors, and other high voltage devices are more or less immune to EMP.

Interesting.

"Some initial thoughts on EMP protection from the US military packaging division.

A continuously sealed metal barrier has proven to be very effective in preventing EM/HPM energy from reaching susceptible electronic or explosive components. Exterior packaging fabricated from plastic, wood or other fibre materials provides almost no protection form EM/HPM threats. The metal enclosure can be very thin provided there are no openings (tears, pin holes, doors, incomplete seams) that would allow microwaves to enter. Sealed barrier bags that incorporate a thin layer of aluminium foil and are primarily used to provide water vapour proof protection to an item, can add a great deal of resistance to EM/HPM penetration.

A number of cylindrical and rectangular steel containers have been developed by the Packaging Division for a wide range of munitions, weapon systems and associated components. The cylindrical containers are end opening and the rectangular containers are top opening. All the containers have synthetic rubber gaskets that allow them to maintain a +3 psi environmental seal to the outside environment. The containers are constructed using seam welding to provide for continuous metal contact on all surfaces of the body assembly. The cover openings have been held to a minimum and the sealing gaskets positioned in a manner to allow overlapping metal parts to add additional protection to these areas. Microwaves are very adept at bouncing around and working their way into even the smallest opening. Tests of the cylindrical and rectangular steel containers used by this organization have demonstrated a high level of protection in preventing EM/HPM energy from entering the container.

The key is to use a metal enclosure and eliminate or minimize any openings. Where openings are needed they should be surrounded to the greatest extent possible by continuous metal and in the case of a gasket, metal sheathing or mesh can be placed around the elastometer material or conductive metal moulded into the gasket. The closer the surrounding container comes to a continuous metal skin the more protection that will be provided."

http://standeyo.com/News_Files/NBC/EMP.protection.html

[7th trump]

What youhave there is a big capacitor. Try getting out of that car in a hurry.
Actually, no, you dont have a big capacitor. The resistence between the metal lid and the metal can is a short. A capacitor is not a short but an electrical "open" that charactoristically passing ac and blocks dc. I dont know how many times I tripped breakers and grabbed the circuit wiring to do work and never get any shock of the wire discharging its 120 voltage.
A lightning bolt will go anywhere regardless, no telling where millions of volts is searching for. 120vac in your home is a negative to millions of volts. A power line on a car is not a capacitor....................its just merely either an extention of the wire, which if the case, you will not likely get the full jolt depending on how much resistence you are to ground or the wire is a direct path to ground which if the case the low amperage power pole fuses blow immediately.

[joboo]

Actually, no, you dont have a big capacitor. The resistence between the metal lid and the metal can is a short. A capacitor is not a short but an electrical "open" that charactoristically passing ac and blocks dc. I dont know how many times I tripped breakers and grabbed the circuit wiring to do work and never get any shock of the wire discharging its 120 voltage.
A lightning bolt will go anywhere regardless, no telling where millions of volts is searching for. 120vac in your home is a negative to millions of volts. A power line on a car is not a capacitor....................its just merely either an extention of the wire, which if the case, you will not likely get the full jolt depending on how much resistence you are to ground or the wire is a direct path to ground which if the case the low amperage power pole fuses blow immediately.

What about the tires? I don't see how electricity is going to dissipate from a car to the ground through rubber.

[gunDriller]

i remember one of the things that was marketed to me by some electronics company.

it was a zener diode about the size of a pack of cigarettes. it's designed to clamp voltages on a 3 phase AC line to less than a certain value. if the line voltage is 230, and the normal peak is (i forget) ... these special zener diodes would do their thing if the line voltage got to 500 volts, for example. since it was 3 phase, you needed 3 of them. cost ... maybe $500 each.

i think it's good to think about EMP but for a lot of defense contractors, it's just another way to increase the cost of a war toy.

[Dogman]

i remember one of the things that was marketed to me by some electronics company.

it was a zener diode about the size of a pack of cigarettes. it's designed to clamp voltages on a 3 phase AC line to less than a certain value. if the line voltage is 230, and the normal peak is (i forget) ... these special zener diodes would do their thing if the line voltage got to 500 volts, for example. since it was 3 phase, you needed 3 of them. cost ... maybe $500 each.

i think it's good to think about EMP but for a lot of defense contractors, it's just another way to increase the cost of a war toy.


Zeners do have their place!


Ever have a varistor blow off the board and save the circuit it was in?

[Awoke]

I don't think there would be any inductance at all. If it's straight to ground, it's straight to ground.

[7th trump]

What about the tires? I don't see how electricity is going to dissipate from a car to the ground through rubber.It wont or shouldnt but that doesnt mean you are electrically charged at that potential either. You have to be the path for electrons to flow.
I still touch wires after tripping breakers and never get a shock. Yeah sure the other side is grounded most of the time when something is plugged in, but I dont get a shock from touching an outlet that has nothing plugged into it after tripping the breaker.
Theory the wire should have an electrical charge of 120v give or take depending on the sine wave the moment you trip the breaker. You are either gonna be more positive than the outlet or more negative.
Ground is 0 volts and line ac swings from a positive 60 volts to a negative 60 volts totalling 120 vac.
Either you are giving up electrons or receiving the electrons during a shock when it comes to ac.

[7th trump]

Straight to ground chances are the pole fuses are blown. Tree rats (squirels) blow pole fuses like nothing. Cant imagine a small short (broke line on the ground) not blowing the pole fuses

[joboo]

It wont or shouldnt but that doesnt mean you are electrically charged at that potential either. You have to be the path for electrons to flow.
I still touch wires after tripping breakers and never get a shock. Yeah sure the other side is grounded most of the time when something is plugged in, but I dont get a shock from touching an outlet that has nothing plugged into it after tripping the breaker.
Theory the wire should have an electrical charge of 120v give or take depending on the sine wave the moment you trip the breaker. You are either gonna be more positive than the outlet or more negative.
Ground is 0 volts and line ac swings from a positive 60 volts to a negative 60 volts totalling 120 vac.
Either you are giving up electrons or receiving the electrons during a shock when it comes to ac.

I suppose you find out when go to get out of the car and put one foot on the ground while the rest of you is still in the car. i.e. best not to be in a hurry to get out of the car immediately after it gets struck by lightning, or be touching anything grounded inside the car when it gets struck for that matter...that would suck.

[Joe King]

If you tried to get out while it was being struck, then yes, you'd probably die. But after the lightning strike was over, it'd be perfectly safe to get out of the car.

Now if live electric lines fell on your car, you should think twice about getting out.

[joboo]

It's obviously not going to kill you but the car is definitely at a higher potential than ground after being struck by lightning. It's has to be as it's isolated via the tires. After a million or so volts bathes the car, I 'd rather not have any of that residual potential.

Lightning is not predictable, nor are the circumstances at the time. DC voltage with very unusual AC characteristics. There is a definite difference in potential, how much for the circumstances is your decision.

Based on 101 theory it's more of a common sense approach.

[Joe King]

It's obviously not going to kill you but the car is definitely at a higher potential than ground after being struck by lightning. It's has to be as it's isolated via the tires. After a million or so volts bathes the car, I 'd rather not have any of that residual potential. It can't hurt you even if there is a slight difference. If the voltage in a bolt of lightning can arc from cloud to ground, I doubt it would have any trouble bridging the small gap created by tires.

[joboo]

It can't hurt you even if there is a slight difference. If the voltage in a bolt of lightning can arc from cloud to ground, I doubt it would have any trouble bridging the small gap created by tires.

Depends on the tires, and not everything is going to ground out over that gap. At some point the gap from rubber to ground will insulate, and you get the difference depending on the situation. How much is anyone's guess, but there's definitely something there. What fraction of millions of volts are you comfortable with testing out?

If car manufacturers had lightning machines, and got people to vary their exit times from differently configured "charged" cars with various tire profiles...until that time I suppose.

[Dogman]

Depends on the tires, and not everything is going to ground out over that gap. At some point the gap from rubber to ground will insulate, and you get the difference depending on the situation. How much is anyone's guess, but there's definitely something there. What fraction of millions of volts are you comfortable with testing out?

If car manufacturers had lightning machines, and got people to vary their exit times from differently configured "charged" cars with various tire profiles...until that time I suppose. The amount of charge probably will not be more than what you may experience when on a cold dry day and you slide out of your seat (cloth) and touch something metal on the car. And the static charge will jump from your hand or finger to the metal. The is just not that much potential that can build up to hurt you. And it will be even less with a lighting strike, because everything will be wet and near 100% humidity, so there will be almost no chance for a latent charge to remain.

[7th trump]

I was in a bath tube (with water in it) when the old well tower at the farm took a direct hit from lightning years ago. All it did was knock out the pump that was down the well pipe (1100.00 later) and burnt the wiring in the pump cellar. And I was sitting in water with direct metal pipe from the well to the bath tub and I recall my brothers were doing the dishes and nothing happened to me or them.
If lightning hits your car its already found the path to ground (even through tires) and dissipated the energy long before your blood pressure comes down to do anything about it.....no residual voltage will be hanging around.........enough said!

[joboo]

Basically the extent of the more extreme risk is getting burned, or numbness, and dizziness, disorientation, while inside the car. I've read a while back of people using CB radios getting their faces burned. There's a handful of police reports on this.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/lightning-caused-deaths-around-vehicles.pdf

You guys can do what you think is best, but there's no way I'm going to test the "car struck by lightning capacitance theory" in something like this.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1d7PR7x11Ls/S8yrWkfKMkI/AAAAAAAAAFM/w1F1wi0jMbQ/s1600/DSC00852.jpg

Someone email myth busters for a future show idea.

[Joe King]

Basically the extent of the more extreme risk is getting burned, or numbness, and dizziness, disorientation, while inside the car. I've read a while back of people using CB radios getting their faces burned. There's a handful of police reports on this.If you're talking about having contact with something inside the car that connects to something outside the car, then yes, you could get hurt during the strike.
...but not after it.


http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/lightning-caused-deaths-around-vehicles.pdf That talks about during the strike, not about a charge build up in the car because of a strike.


You guys can do what you think is best, but there's no way I'm going to test the "car struck by lightning capacitance theory" in something like this.Again, the height of those tires means nothing to an electrical arc that can be several miles long. It would bridge that gap on its way to ground as though that gap wasn't even there.
Think of it like this. The lightning bolt wouldn't have struck to begin with had a path to ground not been present.
ie the charge couldn't stay in the car even if it somehow wanted to.



Someone email myth busters for a future show idea.Go for it. I doubt they'll do it though.

[joboo]

Obviously what I posted talks about during the strike lol... Electricity is like water. Turn on your tap, and notice there's a nice flow to ground aka the drain. Stick your finger in the stream, it gets wet regardless of how huge the drain in your sink is. How soon you get dry is the question.

If you're trying to say rubber does not provide electrical isolation from ground, you will probably get very few people to agree with you.

[Joe King]

If you're trying to say rubber does not provide electrical isolation from ground, you will probably get very few people to agree with you.Not with the voltages contained in a lightning strike it doesn't. With enough voltage, anything can be a conductor. All it has to do is to be able to overcome the objects resistance. Tires are no match for a lightning bolt in that regard.
Can you not understand that if the path to ground is not there to begin with, {just prior to the strike} the strike could not happen at all?
...and if there is a path to ground, the entire charge is dissipated.

[joboo]

Not with the voltages contained in a lightning strike it doesn't. With enough voltage, anything can be a conductor. All it has to do is to be able to overcome the objects resistance. Tires are no match for a lightning bolt in that regard.
Can you not understand that if the path to ground is not there to begin with, {just prior to the strike} the strike could not happen at all?
...and if there is a path to ground, the entire charge is dissipated.

The ground itself is the path to ground during a lightning strike, whatever gets "hit" just happens to be in the path of the strike at the time.

The potential will continue to zero along the path of least resistance until it meets resistance, then it will discharge according to the conductive properties of the resistance it encounters.

Not sure what you're splitting hairs over it's pretty basic level capacitance theory.

[Joe King]

The ground itself is the path to ground during a lightning strike, whatever gets "hit" just happens to be in the path of the strike at the time.

The potential will continue to zero along the path of least resistance until it meets resistance, then it will discharge according to the conductive properties of the resistance it encounters.

Not sure what you're splitting hairs over it's pretty basic level capacitance theory.But you're car isn't a capacitor. The voltage flows through a car on its way to ground. It doesn't stay in the car. Once it reaches ground, its gone.

[vacuum]

I don't think there would be any inductance at all. If it's straight to ground, it's straight to ground.
At high frequencies and broad frequencies (broad frequency spectrum of the signal is associated with the short pulse duration), you have to use a more detailed model of your system than just ohm's law.

In this case, unlike 60 Hz or DC, many wavelengths can fit on the wire before it ever reaches the ground. So you have to use something like the transmission line model:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_element_model#Transmission_lines

[Awoke]

One thing people aren't taking into consideration is that Lightning is an ultra-high voltage. If it can pass from the sky to the earth, though the atmosphere, it will have no problem making the jump from a car frame to the earth. (Especially if it is pouring rain and there is a sheath of liquid around the vehicle and tires)
Most instances of car getting hit by lightning result in nothing at all, other than scaring the shit out of the passengers, or causing an accident if the vehicle is moving.

Now driving a steel fishing boat in a lightning storm on the other hand.... That takes a real man.
(Just kidding)

I do happen to know a man that claims to have been struck by lightning in his boat three times. I want to ask him the details next time I see him.

[7th trump]

The ground itself is the path to ground during a lightning strike, whatever gets "hit" just happens to be in the path of the strike at the time.

The potential will continue to zero along the path of least resistance until it meets resistance, then it will discharge according to the conductive properties of the resistance it encounters.

Not sure what you're splitting hairs over it's pretty basic level capacitance theory.
Electricity isnt like your water analogy trying to find its way to sea level where it pools and collects when it encounters a plateau fills up and then continues its path to sea level. Electricty doesnt follow a path of least resistence to encounter a higher resistence. Electricity knows its path (resistence) before it ever arcs.
Ever hear of Ohms law?
Capacitors block dc which is what lightning is.
Unless the gap between the plates of a capacitor is large enough electron flow ceases. A car is not a capacitor. A car, if anything, provides metalic multiple paths for the electrons to go to ground. And if you have multiple paths you then have parallel paths which makes the resistence even more of a short. Tires have steel belts in them and I highly doubt the gap between the belts of the tires and the metal structure of a car is enough to stop electrons to ground with millions of volts forcing it to ground.
If you have two paths to ground that meter 100 ohms each electricity only see 50 ohms not 200ohms. Its becomes less resistant as paths increase. Inversly proportional, 1/R !
Normal 12 gauge wiring in your house is rated for 600v. Any voltage beyond that the wire is not garranteed to not arc through the insulation and cause a fire, shock or both.
Also, lightning, a lot of the time, has a small trailer that goes from the ground up to the sky to connect the higher voltage in the atmosphere to discharge to ground. Google lightning pictures and you will see the small feeler trailers reaching up 40 -50 feet into the sky just before the lightning strike.

[Awoke]

Rest assured, a vehicle is not going to act as a capacitor with a single lighting strike.

However if you have a downed line on your vehicle, and it was live, then you need to open the door and jump out of the vehicle with your whole body, so that by the time you contact ground you are not in contact with the vehicle.

[steyr_m]

I skimmed through this thread and here's my comments. [for what they are worth]

A metal trash can is an awesome Faraday cage. Very easily made, no need to source copper mesh... I personally use an old metal filing cabinet. A wire lead must be attached to drain energy to ground or the metal will retransmit the signal, just like if you were to suspend a wire and it will re-xmit a signal beamed at it. A good example is RFID, it is a passive device and only transmits when hit by a signal -- but it's weaker. That's why you have to be close.

Also, none of your electronics can touch the metal of your cage. I line my cabinet with cardboard. You don't need two trashcans.

I don't solder. I use a 1/4" bolt, washers and a nut [through a drilled hole]. This way I can daisy chain cabinets and remove wires easily if need be with alligator clips or a ringlet crimped on the wire.

[Joe King]

Also, none of your electronics can touch the metal of your cage. I line my cabinet with cardboard. You don't need two trashcans.If you're doing this, what about using two with the inner one being a plastic one so as to insulate while also maintaining the maximum amount of storage area?
Assuming of course that you could find a plastic one the right size to nest with the outer metal one.

[Dogman]

If you're doing this, what about using two with the inner one being a plastic one so as to insulate while also maintaining the maximum amount of storage area?
Assuming of course that you could find a plastic one the right size to nest with the outer metal one. You would have to electricly bond the two cans together, using plastic or any insulator between any two metal and isolated surfaces at least in my mind could possibly create a capacitor.

[Joe King]

However if you have a downed line on your vehicle, and it was live, then you need to open the door and jump out of the vehicle with your whole body, so that by the time you contact ground you are not in contact with the vehicle.
I suppose that would depend upon how good a jumper you are as well as the lines voltage. If you had one of those 500KV lines down across your car you'd probably not want to open the door.

Oh wait, you can't see this, can you? lol

[Joe King]

You would have to electricly bond the two cans together, using plastic or any insulator between any two metal and isolated surfaces at least in my mind could possibly create a capacitor.I'm not talking about 3 cans {metal-plastic-metal} but rather just using one can and then lining it with a plastic can so as to insulate the goods you are trying to protect without having to wrap them in order to keep them from touching the homemade farraday cage.

[Santa]

Perhaps the capacitance would be reduced if the electro-nerds were to climb in the can along with the microwave before it gets soldered shut and buried. >:D

[Dogman]

Perhaps the capacitance would be reduced if the electro-nerds were to climb in the can along with the microwave before it gets soldered shut and buried. >:D
Dam Santa , what crawled up your butt and died? Did your elf's go on strike?

Yours truly

Nerd's rule!

[Santa]

Dam Santa , what crawled up your butt and died? Did your elf's go on strike?

Yours truly

Nerd's rule!

Relax Dog, I'm just kiddin around... hence, the devil smiley... >:D

P.S. Maybe an elf crawled up my butt. :)

[steyr_m]

If you're doing this, what about using two with the inner one being a plastic one so as to insulate while also maintaining the maximum amount of storage area?
Assuming of course that you could find a plastic one the right size to nest with the outer metal one.

Yeah, that works.... I personally find that a filing cabinet works better for me. Easier to get to things when needed, With a trash can, you may have to dig to get to the bottom.

[steyr_m]

You would have to electricly bond the two cans together, using plastic or any insulator between any two metal and isolated surfaces at least in my mind could possibly create a capacitor.

It would, if there were no leads to ground. Energy is always looking for ground and will take the path of least resistance. If the outer layer is grounded, that's where it'll go.

What I do, as an addendum to my first post -- I have a ringlet on one end of the wire and I have an electrical plug on the other end; but wired to the grounding prong [the third prong] Don't do this unless you know what you're doing, and all I do is plug it into an electrical socket in my basement wall.

[7th trump]

I suppose that would depend upon how good a jumper you are as well as the lines voltage. If you had one of those 500KV lines down across your car you'd probably not want to open the door.

Oh wait, you can't see this, can you? lol
Those 500kv lines have fuses on the poles that blow with the touch of a squirels foot. I think you've been watching to much tv!

[Dogman]

Those 500kv lines have fuses on the poles that blow with the touch of a squirels foot. I think you've been watching to much tv! At those voltages Poof no squirrel or car!

Would think at that voltage it would jump the air gap from the frame of the car/truck to the ground!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIkNY5xjy5k

[Joe King]

Those 500kv lines have fuses on the poles that blow with the touch of a squirels foot. I think you've been watching to much tv!Actually, I haven't watched any in years. lol
...and I suppose you're correct. A fuse would almost have to blow once it shorted to ground.

[7th trump]

At those voltages Poof no squirrel or car!

Would think at that voltage it would jump the air gap from the frame of the car/truck to the ground!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIkNY5xjy5k
Yeah, it might be a high voltage but the current is very low.
I think the pole fuses are rated at 15 amps or somewhere around that. Look at the glass balls with the telsa coils in them you can buy at radio shack. The spark (4 to 5 inches long) follows your hand but you dont get a shock.

Neat video by the way.

[Dogman]

Yeah, it might be a high voltage but the current is very low.
I think the pole fuses are rated at 15 amps or somewhere around that. Look at the glass balls with the telsa coils in them you can buy at radio shack. The spark (4 to 5 inches long) follows your hand but you dont get a shock.

Neat video by the way.

You are thinking wrong! And that kind of thinking will kill you!

Those power lines can vaporize you, by cooking you from the inside out!

You are thinking of Tesla coils that produce very high static/dc voltage at very very low current, and the skin effect !

But pay attention below after where I highlighted in red.

The 'skin effect'

The dangers of contact with high frequency electrical current are sometimes perceived as being less than at lower frequencies, because the subject usually doesn't feel pain or a 'shock'. This is often erroneously attributed to skin effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect), a phenomenon that tends to inhibit alternating current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current) from flowing inside conducting media. It was thought that in the body, Tesla currents travelled close to the skin surface, making them safer than lower frequency electric currents. In fact, in the early 1900s a major use of Tesla coils was to apply high frequency current directly to the body in electrotherapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrotherapy).


Although skin effect limits Tesla currents to the outer fraction of an inch in metal conductors, the 'skin depth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_depth)' of human flesh at typical Tesla coil frequencies is still of the order of 60 inches (150 cm) or more.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-40)[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-41)[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-42)[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-43)[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-44) This means that high frequency currents will still preferentially flow through deeper, better conducting, portions of an experimenter's body such as the circulatory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulatory_system) and nervous systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_system). The reason for the lack of pain is that a human (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human) being's nervous system does not sense the flow of potentially dangerous electrical currents above 15–20 kHz; essentially, in order for nerves to be activated, a significant number of ions must cross their membrane before the current (and hence voltage) reverses. Since the body no longer provides a warning 'shock', novices may touch the output streamers of small Tesla coils without feeling painful shocks. However, there is anecdotal evidence among Tesla coil experimenters that temporary tissue damage may still occur and be observed as muscle pain, joint pain, or tingling for hours or even days afterwards. This is believed to be caused by the damaging effects of internal current flow, and is especially common with continuous wave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_wave) (CW), solid state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_state_%28electronics%29) or vacuum tube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_tube) type Tesla coils. Some transformers can provide alternating current with such high frequencies that the skin depth becomes small enough for the voltage to be safe. Skin depth is inversely proportional to the root of the frequency, putting these frequencies in the megahertz range.

Large Tesla coils and magnifiers can deliver dangerous levels of high frequency current, and they can also develop significantly higher voltages (often 250,000–500,000 volts, or more). Because of the higher voltages, large systems can deliver higher energy, potentially lethal, repetitive high voltage capacitor discharges from their top terminals. Doubling the output voltage quadruples the electrostatic energy stored in a given top terminal capacitance. If an unwary experimenter accidentally places himself in path of the high voltage capacitor discharge to ground, the low current electric shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock) can cause involuntary spasms of major muscle groups and may induce life-threatening ventricular fibrillation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventricular_fibrillation) and cardiac arrest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest). Even lower power vacuum tube or solid state Tesla coils can deliver RF currents that are capable of causing temporary internal tissue, nerve, or joint damage through Joule heating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating). In addition, an RF arc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc) can carbonize flesh, causing a painful and dangerous bone-deep RF burn (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RF_burn&action=edit&redlink=1) that may take months to heal. Because of these risks, knowledgeable experimenters avoid contact with streamers from all but the smallest systems. Professionals usually use other means of protection such as a Faraday cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage) or a chain mail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_%28armour%29) suit to prevent dangerous currents from entering their body.

The most serious dangers associated with Tesla coil operation are associated with the primary circuit. It is the primary circuit that is capable of delivering a sufficient current at a significant voltage to stop the heart of a careless experimenter. Because these components are not the source of the trademark visual or auditory coil effects, they may easily be overlooked as the chief source of hazard. Should a high frequency arc strike the exposed primary coil while, at the same time, another arc has also been allowed to strike to a person, the ionized gas of the two arcs forms a circuit that may conduct lethal, low-frequency current from the primary into the person.

Further, great care should be taken when working on the primary section of a coil even when it has been disconnected from its power source for some time. The tank capacitors can remain charged for days with enough energy to deliver a fatal shock. Proper designs should always include 'bleeder resistors' to bleed off stored charge from the capacitors. In addition, a safety shorting operation should be performed on each capacitor before any internal work is performed.[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-Tesla_Coils_Safety_Information-45)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#The_.27skin_effect.27


Do not ever think that overhead power lines especially the very high voltage ones like 500kv are less dangerous than say the ones in your neighborhood or your house wiring, They will vaporize you in less than a heart beat.

[Awoke]

What I do, as an addendum to my first post -- I have a ringlet on one end of the wire and I have an electrical plug on the other end; but wired to the grounding prong [the third prong] Don't do this unless you know what you're doing, and all I do is plug it into an electrical socket in my basement wall.

Wouldn't it be easier to just run a wire to your main pluming waterline? I think so.

[joboo]

But you're car isn't a capacitor. The voltage flows through a car on its way to ground. It doesn't stay in the car. Once it reaches ground, its gone.

Sure it is. Why do they put nice fat ground wires on gas pump nozzles then?

They do it to prevent fuel igniting, and the gas tank exploding from the difference in potential energy from just driving around, aka the wind particles. Your car gets charged up because the rubber tires insulate it from ground. No electron flow through rubber. Holds a charge just like a capacitor.

Now if anyone wants to state they can predict how lightning strikes with all those pulsing side veins tickling here and there dosing everything up nicely, they can try in vain, but I bet I could place one hell of a charge on a car before you start seeing visible arcing from the rims to the ground, and that amount of differential would knock your socks off.

[7th trump]

You are thinking wrong! And that kind of thinking will kill you!

Those power lines can vaporize you, by cooking you from the inside out!

You are thinking of Tesla coils that produce very high static/dc voltage at very very low current, and the skin effect !

But pay attention below after where I highlighted in red.

The 'skin effect'

The dangers of contact with high frequency electrical current are sometimes perceived as being less than at lower frequencies, because the subject usually doesn't feel pain or a 'shock'. This is often erroneously attributed to skin effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect), a phenomenon that tends to inhibit alternating current (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternating_current) from flowing inside conducting media. It was thought that in the body, Tesla currents travelled close to the skin surface, making them safer than lower frequency electric currents. In fact, in the early 1900s a major use of Tesla coils was to apply high frequency current directly to the body in electrotherapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrotherapy).


Although skin effect limits Tesla currents to the outer fraction of an inch in metal conductors, the 'skin depth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_depth)' of human flesh at typical Tesla coil frequencies is still of the order of 60 inches (150 cm) or more.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-40)[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-41)[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-42)[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-43)[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-44) This means that high frequency currents will still preferentially flow through deeper, better conducting, portions of an experimenter's body such as the circulatory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circulatory_system) and nervous systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nervous_system). The reason for the lack of pain is that a human (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human) being's nervous system does not sense the flow of potentially dangerous electrical currents above 15–20 kHz; essentially, in order for nerves to be activated, a significant number of ions must cross their membrane before the current (and hence voltage) reverses. Since the body no longer provides a warning 'shock', novices may touch the output streamers of small Tesla coils without feeling painful shocks. However, there is anecdotal evidence among Tesla coil experimenters that temporary tissue damage may still occur and be observed as muscle pain, joint pain, or tingling for hours or even days afterwards. This is believed to be caused by the damaging effects of internal current flow, and is especially common with continuous wave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuous_wave) (CW), solid state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_state_%28electronics%29) or vacuum tube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_tube) type Tesla coils. Some transformers can provide alternating current with such high frequencies that the skin depth becomes small enough for the voltage to be safe. Skin depth is inversely proportional to the root of the frequency, putting these frequencies in the megahertz range.

Large Tesla coils and magnifiers can deliver dangerous levels of high frequency current, and they can also develop significantly higher voltages (often 250,000–500,000 volts, or more). Because of the higher voltages, large systems can deliver higher energy, potentially lethal, repetitive high voltage capacitor discharges from their top terminals. Doubling the output voltage quadruples the electrostatic energy stored in a given top terminal capacitance. If an unwary experimenter accidentally places himself in path of the high voltage capacitor discharge to ground, the low current electric shock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock) can cause involuntary spasms of major muscle groups and may induce life-threatening ventricular fibrillation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ventricular_fibrillation) and cardiac arrest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_arrest). Even lower power vacuum tube or solid state Tesla coils can deliver RF currents that are capable of causing temporary internal tissue, nerve, or joint damage through Joule heating (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule_heating). In addition, an RF arc (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_arc) can carbonize flesh, causing a painful and dangerous bone-deep RF burn (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=RF_burn&action=edit&redlink=1) that may take months to heal. Because of these risks, knowledgeable experimenters avoid contact with streamers from all but the smallest systems. Professionals usually use other means of protection such as a Faraday cage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage) or a chain mail (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_%28armour%29) suit to prevent dangerous currents from entering their body.

The most serious dangers associated with Tesla coil operation are associated with the primary circuit. It is the primary circuit that is capable of delivering a sufficient current at a significant voltage to stop the heart of a careless experimenter. Because these components are not the source of the trademark visual or auditory coil effects, they may easily be overlooked as the chief source of hazard. Should a high frequency arc strike the exposed primary coil while, at the same time, another arc has also been allowed to strike to a person, the ionized gas of the two arcs forms a circuit that may conduct lethal, low-frequency current from the primary into the person.

Further, great care should be taken when working on the primary section of a coil even when it has been disconnected from its power source for some time. The tank capacitors can remain charged for days with enough energy to deliver a fatal shock. Proper designs should always include 'bleeder resistors' to bleed off stored charge from the capacitors. In addition, a safety shorting operation should be performed on each capacitor before any internal work is performed.[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#cite_note-Tesla_Coils_Safety_Information-45)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_coil#The_.27skin_effect.27


Do not ever think that overhead power lines especially the very high voltage ones like 500kv are less dangerous than say the ones in your neighborhood or your house wiring, They will vaporize you in less than a heart beat.

Yeah I know I have a degree in high voltage radar systems. What you fail to see in your post was that spark in your video was an analogy to the tesla coil.
100ma will stop your heart.
The sparks dont mean shit..................they are to be respected!

[Dogman]

Yeah I know I have a degree in high voltage radar systems. What you fail to see in your post was that spark in your video was an analogy to the tesla coil.
100ma will stop your heart.
The sparks dont mean shit..................they are to be respected! Yep, when posted I was not thinking of tesla until it was brought up.

And I wish I was there to witness that arcing in the video, feel it would have been awesome.

[steyr_m]

Wouldn't it be easier to just run a wire to your main pluming waterline? I think so.

Maybe if your main line is Cast Iron. I have a well and my feed is PVC/plastic/something. Your electrical outlet box is grounded [considering it's relatively new] that's what the third bare wire goes to in your wiring in your walls. That is grounded from your main feeds. I'll send a picture of the inside of my CB panel to show you what I'm talking about....[if interested]

If you do it the way I'm talking about, you can have the cage almost anywhere in your house. If attached to your water line, you are stuck where your piping is.

[gunDriller]

Yep, when posted I was not thinking of tesla until it was brought up.

And I wish I was there to witness that arcing in the video, feel it would have been awesome.

in the 1970's the Deutsch Technological Museum in Munich had lightning demonstrations.

basically a room the size of a pro basketball court. half of it for the audience, the other half for the equipment & the demonstrators.

they made arcs go about 20 feet through the air, looked a lot like that picture.

seemed like a half hour but maybe it was only 20 minutes.


it's a long way to go for a lightning demonstrations.

how about the do it yourself approach ? take an old car, drive it to the middle of an open space, ground it several times ... and then raise up a mast about 50 feet, maybe using that semi-telescoping cheap aluminum tubing they use for shade canopy kits.

oh, and lay on the ground at least 50 yards away.

in the middle of a lightning storm ... make that 100 yards away.

[joboo]

Modulating tesla coils...pretty cool idea.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owEXx5UAbdc

[Dogman]

in the 1970's the Deutsch Technological Museum in Munich had lightning demonstrations.

basically a room the size of a pro basketball court. half of it for the audience, the other half for the equipment & the demonstrators.

they made arcs go about 20 feet through the air, looked a lot like that picture.

seemed like a half hour but maybe it was only 20 minutes.


it's a long way to go for a lightning demonstrations.

how about the do it yourself approach ? take an old car, drive it to the middle of an open space, ground it several times ... and then raise up a mast about 50 feet, maybe using that semi-telescoping cheap aluminum tubing they use for shade canopy kits.

oh, and lay on the ground at least 50 yards away.

in the middle of a lightning storm ... make that 100 yards away.

LOL

Have at one time thought of using very fine gauge wire and an high flying Estes rocket! Thought it at one time.


1063

But caution reinforced the love of life and changed my mind!

Tho when a teen, a friend and myself did go down below the local lake spillway where a high tension line crossed the creek. There was and old oil well nearby that was shut in. So we had the brilliant ideal, of using some 30 or so gauge speaker wire, (enamel coated) and tie one end to the derrick and unreel enough wire so that it passed under the high lines and then some.

Then using a wrist rocket and a big nut with the other end of the wire and shoot it over the power line.

It worked, looked just like a lightning bolt, biggest dam bang , next to the real thing, and then we ran like hell out of there. (Was maybe 20 yards from it)

I lived a few blocks from there , and my people asked me if I had anything to do with the big band and lights in the neighborhood flickering off at the same time!

You see , Jerry ben Last name here and myself were known around the town for making our own black powder (and other things that went bang) and blowing things up.

Come to find out the lights in the whole dam town flickered and all heard the bang!

But that was in the mid 60's and nothing was said by anyone, it was just looked as boys will be boys and no harm done.



1065

[Joe King]

Sure it is. Why do they put nice fat ground wires on gas pump nozzles then?As a fail-safe against a spark. Is it possible for a car to hold a very small charge? yes. But it's very small and nowhere near what it would take to harm you. ie it's so small as to not be relevant in the context you used in the case of a lightning strike.



They do it to prevent fuel igniting, and the gas tank exploding from the difference in potential energy from just driving around, aka the wind particles. Your car gets charged up because the rubber tires insulate it from ground. No electron flow through rubber. Holds a charge just like a capacitor.Again, it's a very small charge that'd be like touching a doorknob and getting a small spark. That's what they are trying to prevent, a small spark, not to prevent a car that just got hit by lightning from blowing the place up.


Now if anyone wants to state they can predict how lightning strikes with all those pulsing side veins tickling here and there dosing everything up nicely, they can try in vain, but I bet I could place one hell of a charge on a car before you start seeing visible arcing from the rims to the ground, and that amount of differential would knock your socks off.You don't really understand electricity and resistance, do you? How do you think that a lightning bolt is able to jump 2 miles through nothing but air from cloud to your car, if it can't make it that 5 inches between your rims and the ground?
Can you not understand that lightning would not be able to strike something that prevents it from reaching ground?

[joboo]

I'll repeat it for you again since you seem to be having issues understanding capcitance, and properties of what rubber is when it comes to electron flow, and the predictability of lightning.

I could place a charge on a car up until the point that the rims, or undercarriage arcs off that charge to ground, and I can guarantee you it will not be a little spark when you touch it. If you think you can predict how lightning behaves, you should write a paper, patent your method, then collect the money from it.

How can you not understand that scenario?

[gunDriller]

I'll repeat it for you again since you seem to be having issues understanding capcitance, and properties of what rubber is when it comes to electron flow, and the predictability of lightning.

I could place a charge on a car up until the point that the rims, or undercarriage arcs off that charge to ground, and I can guarantee you it will not be a little spark when you touch it. If you think you can predict how lightning behaves, you should write a paper, patent your method, then collect the money from it.

How can you not understand that scenario?

i understand it !

once i put 48 Volts DC on my tongue. i had entered a toy design competition and my toy had 48 volts (it was a player piano) and i wanted to see how safe it was.

i ohmed my tongue first to get an idea of what the resistance was - and of what the current would be (maybe 10 mA).


it hurt, but it didn't burn my tongue.

i wouldn't do it again.

well, maybe for $1000.


electricity is Fun ! ;)

[steyr_m]

I'll repeat it for you again since you seem to be having issues understanding capcitance, and properties of what rubber is when it comes to electron flow, and the predictability of lightning.

I could place a charge on a car up until the point that the rims, or undercarriage arcs off that charge to ground, and I can guarantee you it will not be a little spark when you touch it. If you think you can predict how lightning behaves, you should write a paper, patent your method, then collect the money from it.

How can you not understand that scenario?

I think we're getting a bit off topic [hey, that never happens on GSUS!]. What you're describing has nothing to do with capacitence. What is the dielectric?

[Joe King]

I'll repeat it for you again since you seem to be having issues understanding capcitance, and properties of what rubber is when it comes to electron flow, and the predictability of lightning.

I could place a charge on a car up until the point that the rims, or undercarriage arcs off that charge to ground, and I can guarantee you it will not be a little spark when you touch it. If you think you can predict how lightning behaves, you should write a paper, patent your method, then collect the money from it.

How can you not understand that scenario?How can you not understand that when lightning hits a car, it is not charging it up as though it were a capacitor?
The rubber in the tires will not insulate a car from ground to the point a lightning bolt hits a car and then stops, thereby charging the car up with a charge sufficient for you to even notice.

During the strike is the only time you can be injured in a car, and only then if you happen to be touching something that connects to the outside of the car or if there is physical damage to the car that allows the lightning bolt to enter the passenger compartment.
Or if you are in a ragtop.


http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/vehicle_strike.html



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve6XGKZxYxA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KApHillC_-8

The truth is, the rubber tires don’t deter lightning in the least bit. By the time a lightning bolt reaches your car, it has been traveling for miles and miles through the air which is many orders of magnitude more resistant than a few inches of rubber. So if the lightning bolt can overcome the resistance of air, it can easily overcome the resistance of a rubber tire. The video on the left shows a car being struck by lightning. If the rubber tires were truly responsible for insulating a car, then lightning would never have struck this car.

From: Do rubber car tires protect me from lightning (http://www.weatherimagery.com/blog/rubber-tires-protect-lightning/)?

Edited to add text for the second video.

[7th trump]

Way to go Joe.....let'll shut him up!

[joboo]

If I place a charge on a car just before it arcs to ground, and you dissipate that amount of charge through your body it's going to hurt. There's no way around it.

Tell me it's impossible to achieve this. It's either possible or it's not.

Then tell me you know all the nuances, and pathways, and energy patterns of every lightning strike.

Laughable.

[joboo]

I think we're getting a bit off topic [hey, that never happens on GSUS!]. What you're describing has nothing to do with capacitence. What is the dielectric?

The chassis is one plate in the capacitor isolated from discharge by a vulcanized rubber dielectric, and ground is the opposing plate.

[Joe King]

If I place a charge on a car just before it arcs to ground, and you dissipate that amount of charge through your body it's going to hurt. There's no way around it.

Tell me it's impossible to achieve this. It's either possible or it's not.

Then tell me you know all the nuances, and pathways, and energy patterns of every lightning strike.

Laughable.I know enough about electricity to know that with cloud to ground lightning if there isn't a path to ground that the lightning bolt cannot happen to begin with. Therefore, the fact that it does happen demonstrates that it merely passes through/around the car on its way to the ground.

I've presented several different ways to try to show you that what you are afraid of happening if lightning strikes your car, is impossible to actually happen.
...but you choose to ignore it all and stick with your theory that you alone hold.

Can you at least present some "proof" of your contention? ie that lightning will charge up a car body and make it dangerous for you to step out of the car after the strike has already happened?
I contend that you will not find one shred of credible evidence for your supposition.

So, have you ever worked with anything electrical? Ever? My guess would be no. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it would explain your misconception.

[ximmy]

electrical engineering according to joboo... ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=W8GRQHsAVjI

[Awoke]

Joboo, a car doesn't "hold a charge just like a capacitor". The rubber on the tires isolates the car from the ground potential, which means that the car can sit at a different voltage potential that the earth for an amount of (short) time, but that doesn't make a capacitor any more that rubbing a ballon on your head makes a ballon a capacitor.

And in a rainstorm, the entire car would be soaked in a sheath of water, so the insulating effects of the rubber tires would be negligible (if not non-existant). So there is no way that a car is going to act as a capacitor and store a voltage for any duration of time. Like I said in a previous post, the only way that would ever be a hazard is if you had a live hydro wire sitting on your car, sparking and flashing, etc, but still isolated from ground.

Also, the reason they have ground wires at gas pumps is because the static potential needs to be discharged faster than it would normally trickle away, but I would challenge you to put your theory to the test:

Why don't you get a voltage supply and an ultra high impedance meter, and charge your car up in your laneway and read the voltage, and see how long it takes for it to trickle down to zero?

[7th trump]

Heres a good test to see if a car is isolated from ground.
Take an old drop cord that you would normally throw away and cut the female end off and strip the black wire back to bare copper. Plug the cord in to a GFCI outlet, sit in the car and touch the bare copper with one finger or tongue and then touch chasis metal inside the car with your other hand and see if you dont get a short shock before the GFCI kicks in.
If the GFCI trips then the GROUND FAULT CIRCUIT INTERUPTER has sensed a ground through the tires of the car and did its job of protecting you.
I'd say skip the GFCI, if your man enough to put your money where your mouth is, and touch the bare copper to see if get a shock. If you do (which you will) then the tires arent isolating anything.

[Awoke]

Telling a person to put voltage through their body from one hand to another, is a direct route through the heart and could (and likely would) be fatal, which you should know as an electrician.

[palani]

I wouldn't advise anyone to trust any GFCI. As to isolation you are going to have current flow simply because of capacitance to the universe. You don't need a dc path to ground because AC is 60 hz. The capacitor is going to draw current when it is charged.

[Awoke]

AC is only 60 hz because of the combination of the amount of magnetic poles the generators have, and the RPMs that our generators are turning at.
It's based completely on the construction of the generators. That's why they have different voltages in Europe: They build their generators differently.

Edit - And Capacitors don't draw current. Current is based on voltage and resistance. Ohms law, E/R=I, or Voltage divided by Resistance equals Amperage. The current will be generated based on the voltage stored up, discharging through whatever resistive material it discharges through.

[Joe King]

Telling a person to put voltage through their body from one hand to another, is a direct route through the heart and could (and likely would) be fatal, which you should know as an electrician.How 'bout if he just attached the wire to the car and then pluged it in to a GFCI, thereby taking himself out of the loop?

[Dogman]

This thread so far has turned into a quite entertaining one , in a Gsus meandering sort of way!

[steyr_m]

The chassis is one plate in the capacitor isolated from discharge by a vulcanized rubber dielectric, and ground is the opposing plate.
The ground cannot be a plate. It's ground. Also, the the dielectric doesn't fully cover one plate as it does in a Cap.

[7th trump]

Telling a person to put voltage through their body from one hand to another, is a direct route through the heart and could (and likely would) be fatal, which you should know as an electrician.
I know Awoke, but for some its the school of hard knocks which he needs. He needs to FEEL his education and thats why I brought in the GFCI to not really get hurt but understadn by feeling the shock. And to show that a GFCI will only trip if a ground is sensed which is what we are trying to convey to him

[7th trump]

The ground cannot be a plate. It's ground. Also, the the dielectric doesn't fully cover one plate as it does in a Cap.
From what I was taught about electricity is that any two points of a conductor is electrically the same.
Just saying!

[Dogman]

From what I was taught about electricity is that any two points of a conductor is electrically the same.
Just saying! You are correct if one all things being the same and you measure the property's of the conductor at those points.

Not quite true when you are referring to instantaneous voltage and current (leading or lagging) using a alternating voltage/current along a conductors path and measuring this voltage at one or more places at the same instant.

And it gets better or more interesting as the frequency of the voltage/current increases from power line frequency's.

Only with direct current will the voltage would be the same at two or more points along a conductors path, If there is no resistance.

Take RF voltage in circuits and antennas you can have standing waves , nodes and nulls along the conductor path and at the nulls they can read 0 voltage, but where you have standing waves you can read high voltage at the instant of measuring.

I think I may have missed some or maybe got crossed up some, have not thought about this topic for years!

Whole volumes have been written about what happens in and along conductors from DC into the microwave (black art).

Fascinating stuff.

Plus too early, low caffeine levels , need some now!

[Awoke]

You're right Dogman, but that's a overly complicated post for what 7th is talking about.

The Ground and the car are not a conductor. They are two separate entities.

[Dogman]

You're right Dogman, but that's a overly complicated post for what 7th is talking about.

The Ground and the car are not a conductor. They are two separate entities.LOL

Yea you are right, I have been accused in the past, of the high crime of explaining how to build a swiss watch , when a Timex would do. And I was just waking up when I posted that.

Sorry! ;D

1073

[joboo]

The ground cannot be a plate. It's ground. Also, the the dielectric doesn't fully cover one plate as it does in a Cap.


What do suppose the negative terminal of a capacitor is connected to. The plate is for all intent and purposes the same as ground if it's connected to it.

Maybe it would help if you imagined the car squished flat into a plate, air and rubber inbetween that plate and ground as the dielectric, then a really huge ground plate below that called asphalt ave.

[joboo]

Joboo, a car doesn't "hold a charge just like a capacitor". The rubber on the tires isolates the car from the ground potential, which means that the car can sit at a different voltage potential that the earth for an amount of (short) time, but that doesn't make a capacitor any more that rubbing a ballon on your head makes a ballon a capacitor.

And in a rainstorm, the entire car would be soaked in a sheath of water, so the insulating effects of the rubber tires would be negligible (if not non-existant). So there is no way that a car is going to act as a capacitor and store a voltage for any duration of time. Like I said in a previous post, the only way that would ever be a hazard is if you had a live hydro wire sitting on your car, sparking and flashing, etc, but still isolated from ground.

Also, the reason they have ground wires at gas pumps is because the static potential needs to be discharged faster than it would normally trickle away, but I would challenge you to put your theory to the test:

Why don't you get a voltage supply and an ultra high impedance meter, and charge your car up in your laneway and read the voltage, and see how long it takes for it to trickle down to zero?

Dissipates small charges slowly. Dissipate large charges slowly as well. They carbonize a section the tire tread to facilitate this slow trickle off under normal driving conditions i.e. wind particle charging (and people still get zapped with a few thousand volts very often despite this), but that addition of tread doping does not do anything for abnormal levels of charging v.s. time. It's not going to drain away big charges quickly enough as there's too much resistivity in the tires.

My original statement was get out of the car in a hurry. I still maintain there's a distinct possibility of getting an unexpected whack, and to blanket statement that it can't happen under any circumstance would be irresponsible given the extreme unpredictability of the event.

[Awoke]

OK, I failed to see that you were saying you would need to jump out quickly. IMO, in the case of a lightning strike, you could jump out as soon as the strike was over, because the moisture would be proding a highly conductive path to ground, so the voltage would be gone gone gone, IMO.

However if your timing was perfect, and you were sitting in your car with one leg on the ground when the lightning hit, then "bye bye!"

[Joe King]

What do suppose the negative terminal of a capacitor is connected to. The plate is for all intent and purposes the same as ground if it's connected to it.

Maybe it would help if you imagined the car squished flat into a plate, air and rubber inbetween that plate and ground as the dielectric, then a really huge ground plate below that called asphalt ave.The only problem with that is that the air gap and tires are not sufficient insulation to prevent the voltages found in lightning from bridging that gap.

Again, {and this is an absolute fact that has been proven many many times} if an electric charge is sufficient to be able to jump 3 miles through the air from a cloud to your car, the few inches between your car and the ground are nothing for it to bridge.
...and once bridged and the voltage reaches ground, it's as good as gone. ie it can not shock you in your car and you'd gain nothing but looking silly "jumping" out of your car after a strike in order to avoid being shocked.

A long time ago people used to have the same fear of simply touching someone who'd been struck due to what they thought was the chance of being shocked themselves by "residual" current.
ie same as you think a car can contain residual current enough to hurt you.

Lightning is not the same as a the small static electric charge that can build up in your car.
That small static charge is what the pump device you mentioned is used to discharge.
ie it is to prevent a small spark that you might not even notice from igniting the gas fumes.
It has nothing to do with discharging a car after it's been hit by lightning.


Seriously, have you ever worked with electricity/electronics? The reason I ask is because you seem to not really understand it. Which is ok, not everyone does, but you seem to have "figgered" yourself off on a tangent in your thinking about it.

[joboo]

I know enough about electricity to know that with cloud to ground lightning if there isn't a path to ground that the lightning bolt cannot happen to begin with. Therefore, the fact that it does happen demonstrates that it merely passes through/around the car on its way to the ground.

I've presented several different ways to try to show you that what you are afraid of happening if lightning strikes your car, is impossible to actually happen.
...but you choose to ignore it all and stick with your theory that you alone hold.

Can you at least present some "proof" of your contention? ie that lightning will charge up a car body and make it dangerous for you to step out of the car after the strike has already happened?
I contend that you will not find one shred of credible evidence for your supposition.

So, have you ever worked with anything electrical? Ever? My guess would be no. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it would explain your misconception.

I've designed a few things for fun, some transmitters, amplifiers, some temperature control units that I could write assembly level code for.

I guess you don't know that lightning gaps up from the ground, and there's a wide area that gets charged up, as in branches of electricity coming up out of the ground and dancing around touching things, and arcing up and back down in a wide assortment of vary potentials around the main trunk.

You're the first person I've ever heard of that claims they can predict how lightning strikes when it does.

That's pretty epic. Care to to share your lightning predictability formula?

[gunDriller]

Plus too early, low caffeine levels , need some now!

i always found that extra caffeine was REAL helpful for understanding Electro-magnetic field theory.

[Joe King]

You're the first person I've ever heard of that claims they can predict how lightning strikes when it does.

That's pretty epic. Care to to share your lightning predictability formula?

Care to share where you learned that lightning can charge up a car as though it were a capacator?

If you look online you'll find tons of stuff that support and confirm the fact that what you say you are afraid of, cannot happen.

As far as I know, you are the only person who holds your belief. Certainly the only one on this forum.

And yes, I realize that the current actually flows upwards from the ground once the connection is made between cloud and ground.
ie your car acts as though it were the wire between the two.

If your supposition were true, you would be able to unplug an extension cord and get shocked by touching the prongs. After all, that wire just had 220V in it and there may be some left over after having unplugged it, right? ::) lol

[Dogman]

i always found that extra caffeine was REAL helpful for understanding Electro-magnetic field theory.That and long burning candles or oil lights! ;D

[joboo]

Care to share where you learned that lightning can charge up a car as though it were a capacator?

If you look online you'll find tons of stuff that support and confirm the fact that what you say you are afraid of, cannot happen.

As far as I know, you are the only person who holds your belief. Certainly the only one on this forum.

And yes, I realize that the current actually flows upwards from the ground once the connection is made between cloud and ground.
ie your car acts as though it were the wire between the two.

If your supposition were true, you would be able to
unplug an extension cord and get shocked by touching the prongs. After all, that wire just had 220V in it and there may be some left over after having unplugged it, right? ::) lol

As long as you realize a large area of ground around the strike gets affected, and there are all kinds of assorted pulses and side tributaries that make up the strike.

Wait a sec....I think I figured out the dual meaning behind your username its "joking".

Well, I have to admit you almost had me going there for a sec, I thought you were a magical wizard like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings with special powers.

I'm just joking, no...wait...you're joking.

[Joe King]

Yes, an area of the ground can be affected by a lightning strike, for about second or less as it dissipates.
...but all that does is prove that the charge does in fact reach ground.

You still haven't answered how you come to the conclusion that an electrical arc that can jump miles through highly resistive air to your car, cannot make the 5" jump from the rims in order to continue on to ground.
Why can you not understand that the fact lightning strikes your car in the first place, is proof positive that it connects to ground?
...and therefore merely acts like a wire between sky and ground.

[7th trump]

As long as you realize a large area of ground around the strike gets affected, and there are all kinds of assorted pulses and side tributaries that make up the strike.

Wait a sec....I think I figured out the dual meaning behind your username its "joking".

Well, I have to admit you almost had me going there for a sec, I thought you were a magical wizard like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings with special powers.

I'm just joking, no...wait...you're joking.
Just what do you think a ground rod does?
Do you think the ground around a ground rod is always charged?

[joboo]

Yes, an area of the ground can be affected by a lightning strike, for about second or less as it dissipates.
...but all that does is prove that the charge does in fact reach ground.

You still haven't answered how you come to the conclusion that an electrical arc that can jump miles through highly resistive air to your car, cannot make the 5" jump from the rims in order to continue on to ground.
Why can you not understand that the fact lightning strikes your car in the first place, is proof positive that it connects to ground?
...and therefore merely acts like a wire between sky and ground.


Maybe if lightning was a binary on/off scenario with no varying degrees of intensity inbetween, but even then I'm not convinced.

You don't think there will be a point where the initial strike will bleed off and begin to dissipate, and a dielectric resistance takes effect?

The eyes see one event, bur from what I understand there all kinds of pulse strikes going on in there with varying degrees of intensity.

[joboo]

Just what do you think a ground rod does?
Do you think the ground around a ground rod is always charged?

Yes I never go outside without a faraday suit for fear of being electrocuted on my front lawn at any given moment.

say what?

[Joe King]

Maybe if lightning was a binary on/off scenario with no varying degrees of intensity inbetween, but even then I'm not convinced.

You don't think there will be a point where the initial strike will bleed off and begin to dissipate, and a dielectric resistance takes effect?

The eyes see one event, bur from what I understand there all kinds of pulse strikes going on in there with varying degrees of intensity.
Even if true, none of what you just posted supports your assertion that a car can become a capacator and hold a charge that could be detrimental to your safety.

Again, where did you get the idea it could? Did you surmise this yourself? Or were you taught it?

[Dogman]

Even if true, none of what you just posted supports your assertion that a car can become a capacator and hold a charge that could be detrimental to your safety.

Again, where did you get the idea it could? Did you surmise this yourself? Or were you taught it? In all of my years of reading and study, I have never have heard or read of a case or situation as joboo has proposed. It flat out does not happen, if it did, the phenomenon would have been documented.

Other than static charges that can build up that can start fires while fueling, lightning strikes (well documented ) or physical power line contact and again that is documented.

End of rainbows anyone? There is booty out thair. ;D

[joboo]

Even if true, none of what you just posted supports your assertion that a car can become a capacator and hold a charge that could be detrimental to your safety.

Again, where did you get the idea it could? Did you surmise this yourself? Or were you taught it?

If just the wind blowing on your car from driving can give you a zap, there's a distinct dielectric effect from ground taking place.

Proof of this is why tire manufacturers alter their designs around it by doping just enough carbon so the tire is not too conductive to affect longevity, and performance.

Expedite the process to overcome the trickle effect, and you get an excess above what can be bled off through the tire v.s. time.

It's not too hard to imagine. Energy in v.s. energy out.

[Joe King]

What you are trying to say now does not apply to your original assertion of a car being "charged up" by a lightning bolt.

Scroll down to "Car Door Sparks" and read, please (http://amasci.com/emotor/zapped.html).
...and please notice that it says nothing about lightning.

Or if you prefer, What about shocks when I get out of my car? (http://www.static-sol.com/articles/static_shocks.htm#What about shocks when I get out of my car?)


Again, where did you learn that a lightning bolt could charge up a car with dangerous voltages?

[steyr_m]

If just the wind blowing on your car from driving can give you a zap, there's a distinct dielectric effect from ground taking place.

I don't know if I'm going to go much further with this because I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about.

I've never gotten a 'zap' from wind blowing on my car, mostly from my butt rubbing on the seat. Yes, air friction builds up a static charge -- on airplanes.

What the hell is this? -- "Expedite the process to overcome the trickle effect, and you get an excess above what can be bled off through the tire v.s. time." You're saying the tire is a conductor [by doping] so it can't be an insulator [which is what a dielectric is].

And what is this all about? A lightning stike... that I'm guessing you think your car is a super-cap because of the unibody as one plate, your doped conductive tires and ground as the other plate? Huh? Even if feasible, the charge will be there -- milliseconds? microseconds?

Why did you even bring it up?

[joboo]

In all of my years of reading and study, I have never have heard or read of a case or situation as joboo has proposed. It flat out does not happen, if it did, the phenomenon would have been documented.

Other than static charges that can build up that can start fires while fueling, lightning strikes (well documented ) or physical power line contact and again that is documented.

End of rainbows anyone? There is booty out thair. ;D

lol... ;D

Anyone look into Violet wand's making a come back from the heydays of hair restoration to becoming the new sex toy?

http://www.violetwanda.com/


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GXajYAn_RI

[steyr_m]

lol... ;D

Anyone look into Violet wand's making a come back from the heydays of hair restoration to becoming the new sex toy?



Sorry man, apples and oranges.

[joboo]

I don't know if I'm going to go much further with this because I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about.

I've never gotten a 'zap' from wind blowing on my car, mostly from my butt rubbing on the seat. Yes, air friction builds up a static charge -- on airplanes.

What the hell is this? -- "Expedite the process to overcome the trickle effect, and you get an excess above what can be bled off through the tire v.s. time." You're saying the tire is a conductor [by doping] so it can't be an insulator [which is what a dielectric is].

And what is this all about? A lightning stike... that I'm guessing you think your car is a super-cap because of the unibody as one plate, your doped conductive tires and ground as the other plate? Huh? Even if feasible, the charge will be there -- milliseconds? microseconds?

Why did you even bring it up?

Yes rubber is an insulator, a dielectric. Car manufacturers put carbon in tires to make them more conductive to help dissipate the charging because your car is insulated from ground. Look up how some people are getting zapped all the time in certain cars, and why people sell ground straps for cars.

It's not rocket science. It really isn't.

[Joe King]

Tires are not an insulator in the case of a lightning strike.

[steyr_m]

It's not rocket science. It really isn't.

I'm also starting to not like your tone.

[QUOTE=joboo;459501]more conductive to help dissipate the charging because your car is insulated from ground[QUOTE]

If the tires are conductive, how can they be an insulator?

You also never answered the 4th para.

[gunDriller]

so what's the most you guys have ever been zapped with ?

once i put 48 volts DC on my tongue.

i ohm'ed out my tongue first to make sure the current would be within a safe limit.

[steyr_m]

On the heels of my last post, I'm not saying it's the case; but you're starting to sound a bit like Joe King. I know he was posting here too.... but it is familiar....

[steyr_m]

so what's the most you guys have ever been zapped with ?

once i put 48 volts DC on my tongue.

i ohm'ed out my tongue first to make sure the current would be within a safe limit.

I wouldn't do anything above 36VDC. The highest would be good old static build-up of wearing socks on carpeting. I'm an electrical and electronics tech on airplanes, no zaps yet.

[Joe King]

Hey, come on now, at least the stuff I post can be backed up to at least some degree and some of it to a large degree. What joboo is posting in this thread has no basis in fact whatsoever, and we both know it.
So don't be lumpin' me in with someone who asserts a lightning bolt can charge up a car as though it were a capacitor, ok? lol

[Joe King]

If joboo were correct, why do we not build large capacators in lightning-prone areas, somehow get them to be struck by lightning and then discharge them to the grid?

Anyone?

[Dogman]

so what's the most you guys have ever been zapped with ?

once i put 48 volts DC on my tongue.

i ohm'ed out my tongue first to make sure the current would be within a safe limit. Been zapped with 1/2 + inch producing static, plus Tesla coils. Let's see very high voltage rf that at one time I did know the voltage but somewhere around 6,000-20.000 volts. Old tube type TV power supply's and flyback transformers. And old tube type ham gear, some very healthy voltages can be in the transmitter power supply's and liner amp power supply's.

Then there the spark plug wires, both point and condenser and high voltage forget what those voltages were.

So far other than the RF/TV/Ham stuff, none of the above was really dangerous. (In my mind)

Sorry for not quoting voltages , that info mostly has leaked out from my ears over the years. ;D

And all line voltages up to 440 or 480? can not remember which, the 440/480 is the one that nearly got me, that shit has a bite, I was very lucky.

[steyr_m]

Hey, come on now, at least the stuff I post can be backed up to at least some degree and some of it to a large degree. What joboo is posting in this thread has no basis in fact whatsoever, and we both know it.
So don't be lumpin' me in with someone who asserts a lightning bolt can charge up a car as though it were a capacitor, ok? lol

OK, I'll give you that. My apologies. He just seemed to have the same demeanour sometimes....

[Joe King]

Key words......seemed to. lol


Apology accepted. 8)

[Dogman]

On the heels of my last post, I'm not saying it's the case; but you're starting to sound a bit like Joe King. I know he was posting here too.... but it is familiar.... No way related, in my mind. In fact Joboo sort of reminds me of another poster from the past, the name eludes me so far.

[joboo]

Look at it another way. If you hung a car in mid air, and juiced it up with a tesla coil, turned off the coil, then walked up and touched it.

What would happen?

I've never tried it. I'm assuming it would hurt.

[steyr_m]

No way related, in my mind. In fact Joboo sort of reminds me of another poster from the past, the name eludes me so far.

I may have had a few too many beers down range the last time me and JK had a discussion.

[joboo]

If joboo were correct, why do we not build large capacators in lightning-prone areas, somehow get them to be struck by lightning and then discharge them to the grid?

Anyone?

Lightning strikes not predictable enough kemosabe.

[steyr_m]

Look at it another way. If you hung a car in mid air, and juiced it up with a tesla coil, turned off the coil, then walked up and touched it.

What would happen?

I've never tried it. I'm assuming it would hurt.

You're gonna be on my ignore list soon if you keep it up.

[Joe King]

Look at another way, if an aiplane was struck while in the air and then landed on its rubber wheels and a member of the ground crew touches the plane, it doesn't kill him.

Per your scenario, it should. Plane was in the air when struck, right? Rubber wheels insulate it from the ground upon landing, right? lol

[joboo]

You're gonna be on my ignore list soon if you keep it up.

I don't really care either way, but where does all that energy go if it's insulated from ground?

Extrapolate the concept.

[Joe King]

I may have had a few too many beers down range the last time me and JK had a discussion.
Not to mention that most of those subjects were about topics of a more subjective nature, as opposed to something such as this topic which is scientificly provable one way or the other.

[7th trump]

Look at it another way. If you hung a car in mid air, and juiced it up with a tesla coil, turned off the coil, then walked up and touched it.

What would happen?

I've never tried it. I'm assuming it would hurt.
Nothing would happen. As I said in an earlier post I have yet to even feel a thing when tripping breakers and touching the ungrounded and now unenergized black wire.
You dont understand voltage at all joboo. There is no voltage after "juicing" the car. The car is not a capacitor with two plates of postive polarity or negative polarity. And the car is not a battery, in respect to itself, with plates to hold any voltage for current to flow.
A battery has lead positive and negative plates submerged in acid........A car doesnt!

This thread is getting real stupid.

[steyr_m]

Look at another way, if an aiplane was struck while in the air and then landed on its rubber wheels and a member of the ground crew touches the plane, it doesn't kill him.


Lightning strikes happen all the time. We had one two weeks ago. No-one was injured. They didn't even know it happened until after they landed and did their checks.

[Joe King]

Lightning strikes not predictable enough kemosabe.Wrong. It's because unless it's got a path to ground, lightning would not hit it even if it were crashing down all around it. {"it" being the giant capacator}
...and if it has a path to ground, you cannot capture it.

[joboo]

Look at another way, if an aiplane was struck while in the air and then landed on its rubber wheels and a member of the ground crew touches the plane, it doesn't kill him.

Per your scenario, it should. Plane was in the air when struck, right? Rubber wheels insulate it from the ground upon landing, right? lol

I think time would be a factor there, moisture in the air would scrub it off to or acclimatize it back to ambient. (I did mention time as a factor earlier).

[steyr_m]

Extrapolate the concept.

..../ignore

[Joe King]

Ok. What if it were struck while sitting on the tarmac?
...and two seconds later, someone touches it. Do they die?

[Dogman]

Nothing would happen. As I said in an earlier post I have yet to even feel a thing when tripping breakers and touching the ungrounded and now unenergized black wire.
You dont understand voltage at all joboo. There is no voltage after "juicing" the car. The car is not a capacitor with two plates of postive polarity or negative polarity. And the car is not a battery, in respect to itself, with plates to hold any voltage for current to flow.
A battery has lead positive and negative plates submerged in acid........A car doesnt!

This thread is getting real stupid.

Yep do agree with the ongoing derailing, Suggest to ignore said poster unless info in line with the topic is submitted that is based upon proven theory or fact. And not flights of fantasy.

[joboo]

I guess I made the mistake of thinking I could have a discussion of something unusual without personalities, and tempers getting in the way.

Oh well.

[Joe King]

Joboo, we can have a discussion, but you insist on clinging to an idea that is patently false without presenting any proof to support it at all.
ie that a car struck by lightning can pose a danger after the fact.

Again, is this something you deduced on your own, or were you taught that lightning turns cars into giant capacators?

[vacuum]

http://i.imgur.com/qNMAG.jpg

[Joe King]

That's awesome! 1077

[Dogman]

Vaccum

Thanks for the time you invested in your post, you gave me one hell of a early morning wakeup grin and laugh.

1078

[steyr_m]

Now that was funny! Thanks for putting in the effort, it was worth it for me!

[Awoke]

Lightning strikes not predictable enough kemosabe.

You're the boss. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjI8AxZnrx8 Watch at 0:28 and 1:14. Just sayin.

[Awoke]

Holy shit Vacuum, that was as funny as the Hitler responds to the closing of GIM video. Not joking. I am in stitches here.

[Neuro]

Vacuum, that is one of the funniest things I have read!

[steyr_m]

Holy shit Vacuum, that was as funny as the Hitler responds to the closing of GIM video. Not joking. I am in stitches here.

Yeah they're both on par

[beefsteak]

Can one build a visually non-offensive "farraday type cage" around electrical panels inside a mobile home bedroom where great-grandchildren sleep?

All serious responses are welcome. Help out this old man, k?

[beefsteak]

BUMP!!!

Please share cogent thoughts. I really care about these grandkids and eMag pollution in their room where they spend several hours both sleeping and a few hours playing. DAILY.

Thanks.