Defending babies is an anathema

[Awoke]

I want to share something with you.

This is not meant to stir up a bunch of crap, because this is a hot topic, and we have had threads on it in the past that got pretty intense.

My wife and I went out for an evening together, like a date. We went to a local club to watch some stand up comedy. One of the comics was a woman with a big mouth and a bad attitude. Part of her stage show was to point people out in the crowd and make fun of them. Anytime anyone would walk by she would center them out and try her damnest to embarrass them.

Just so happens that the layout of the club made it a requirement for anyone who wanted a cigarette or the bathroom to walk by the stage to get there.

She wasn't funny from the start, just crass. I'm OK with that, I have one of the sickest sense of humor going, and I can make a trucker blush when I get going.

Anyways, this woman kept on making jokes and relating them to abortions.
It started off with a comment here and a comment there, but after 10 or more minutes, it was just abortion joke after abortion joke, with her pro-choice stance being injected here and there between "jokes".

I was offended, and not laughing at any of her act. My wife was offended and not laughing. We weren't doing anything to the contrary, we just weren't enjoying her show. Just so happens we're seated at a stage side table, in full view of all the patrons.

I decided I had enough of her shitty act, and got up to walk over to a complete stranger to mooch a cigarette, because I ran out. Well, her big mouth and insistance on crowd interaction was her own undoing.

She started asking my wife "Where's he going? Did I say something to offend him?" etc.

My wife didn't know what I was up too (Bumming a smoke) so she spoke to the effect that we don't approve of abortion. Well, didn't she go one about that for the next 30 seconds, about how abortion is not a big deal and no one should be offended.

So after successfully mooching a smoke from a patron, I returned to my front row table, and she is talking directly to me, in a room full of hundreds of beer drinking patrons. I stood there and I said to her: "I didn't leave the table for any other reason than to bum a smoke off someone, but I will tell you that your abortion just disgust me"

"Oh really? Why do they disgust you?"
"Because abortion is murder, and you stand there and joke about mothers murdering their own babies"


Here's the sad part, and I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but pretty much the entire crowd booed me. I was seriously take aback. I never let it shake me, I never backed down.

(I never intended to do that, or say that, or anything, but she insisted on centering me out, so I told her the truth.)

The mouthy bitch tried to continue with her act, but she was shook, and even made multiple comments about how the room had a weird vibe now. Her act was destroyed, and she could not recover. I never left my table, even though I wanted to go have that smoke that I mooched. I sat through her entire act so she could not claim any form of victory by seeing me leave partway through her act.


For the remainder of the night, our table was the laughing stock for the remaining comedians. Everytime they were about to make a joke, they would look at us and make jokes about how they were afraid they were going to offend us. (We were good sports about it, laughing along, etc)
When we went out for a smoke, the other smokers were looking at us sideways, like children in elementary school whispering about the outcast.

No one had the balls to confront me on the issue, or support me on the issue.

I take solice in a couple things:
There was a table beside ours that had four young college girls sitting at it. After the conversation (confrontation) with the comic, they were constantly looking over at my wife and I. I can't help but think that we had some sort of positive impact on their thoughts on the issue.
I also think that chances were good that there was a pregnant woman there that night. I pray that we influenced even just one person in that bar to rethink their position on abortion if they were "pro-choice".


Anyways, I'm not looking for hero cookies, I just wanted to share. To me, it shows how far things have gone, when I get booed by over a hundred people for stating the fact that abortion is murder. The devil has his claws sunk deeply into this world.

[chad]

god bless you a hundred, thousand times.

a society that murders its young is a society that does not deserve to exist.

[midnight rambler]

a society that murders its young is a society that does not deserve to exist.

And this won't be fully appreciated until the chickens come home to roost.

[SLV^GLD]

Fuck 'em. You stated your truth. The substance of the truth isn't nearly the lightning rod that is the audacity to actually say it.

People can't stand that, especially in a polarized environment. The comedian cracking on people publicly is a highly polarized environment. Standing up for yourself and calling the "humor" a mockery of what is just and right won't set well with people who showed up and paid up for an escape.

Props to you for stating your truth. Even if I didn't agree with your truth (which I do) I would still think highly of you for actually stating it, especially under those circumstances.

[Awoke]

Yeah, the air was electric for the rest of her set.

It was intense. Thanks guys.

[ximmy]

Your awesome!!

[Awoke]

I will have to wait till I get home to see if you posted some jokey image and if you're being sarcastic before I hit the "thanks" button.

No images are coming up, but most image sites are blocked here, so I can't tell if you're being genuine or not.

[vacuum]

I will have to wait till I get home to see if you posted some jokey image and if you're being sarcastic before I hit the "thanks" button.

No images are coming up, but most image sites are blocked here, so I can't tell if you're being genuine or not.
Just hit the reply with quote button to see the text syntax of any links.

Also, great job standing up in front of everyone and speaking the truth.

[Awoke]

I didn't see any links to any sarcastic photos when I did Vacuum's trick, so thanks Ximmy!

[gunDriller]

http://tedebear337.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/baby4.gif

Dancing Baby Approves ! ;)

i bet the club owner was sitting in the back watching & taking notes.

there are so many other subjects which a stand-up comic could use.

i bet the next time he auditions comics, he doesn't forget you. i think it went in your favor, even if the crowd vibe was hostile/ immature.

what was the average age of the audience ?


http://tedebear337.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/baby4.gif

does the animated GIF slow down the loading of the page too much ?

[Awoke]

Every year more babies die from abortion than the Revolutionary, Civil, Korean, Vietnam, Persian Gulf Wars, and World War 1 and 2 combined.


After the show, I was waiting in line to pay my tab, and my wife decided to go talk to the comic. (My wife is a little "in your face" when she's drinking, but only in a talky way, not a punchy way {anymore})

I rolled my eyes, and thought "Great". So I waited for about 5 minutes in line, paid my tab, and she was still there. I walked up, and didn't want to talk to the comic, but of course she started talking to me about it, trying to dfend it, trying to justify it, trying to minimize the significance of it, etc.

I told her I am not easy to offend, in fact quite difficult to offend, and I told her that if she has offended me, she has certainly offended other people in the past with this act. Certainly not everyone has the conviction to stand in the middle of a room full of people and tell an actor that their act is morally reprehensible.

I told her I was probably the first person with the balls to say something, and even then, I only said something because her big mouth demanded to know my affairs.

So she continued to blah blah about how it's just a joke, and I said "Well maybe you should change your fucking jokes. I don't even want to be discussing this with you, I have nothing to say to you that I haven't already said. I just want this woman to turn around and leave this place with me." (nodding at my wife)

With that I walked out, hoping my wife would follow. And she did.
(You need to understandmy wife is tenatious when drinking beers, so I honestly wasn't sure if she would leave with me or stay to continue talking to the comic)

So then we went to a local pub and watched an awesoem live band, had a great night...

[Awoke]

i bet the next time he auditions comics, he doesn't forget you. i think it went in your favor, even if the crowd vibe was hostile/ immature.


The manager was unhappy with me for being a "downer" and he was standing there the whole time that I explained above, when my wife was talking to her at the end of the night. I told him not to take it personal.



what was the average age of the audience ?


All ages. Young to old, as long as they were over 19.
One older couple (Mid 60's) that was sitting behind us stopped me at the end of the night on my way out and the husband said "You're smarter than you look".

Whatever that means. I suppose he secretly approved of my stance and actions.

[chad]

a lot of today's 'comedy' passes for just insulting people. joy behar, for example, is supposedly a famous 'comic.' or kathy griffin. take your pic. all either of them do, really, is insult people whose politics they disagree with, and then it's 'funny.'

[Awoke]

You're totally right Chad. Especially the novice crop. Ridicule is the flavour of the decade, but I will say the other comics were good, funny, witty and talented. (But not super-star funny)

[sunshine05]

I hate comics who use people in the audience for their humor. It really puts people on the spot. I'm glad you told her exactly what you were thinking. I hope I would do the same in that situation.

[Glass]

in my experience audience participation is never a good thing. You have no control over what is going to come your way. Hopefully this comic learned this lesson if nothing else. It's a bummer to have to kill the vibe but it sounds like a vibe that needed aborting.

A comic doesn't need to be PC when making their jokes but the audience has to be PC and listen to them. Something wrong with that IMO. Sounds like you carried a bit of that audiences bad vibe home with you. Shrug it off. Your work there is done and you done good.

[k-os]

I hate comics who use people in the audience for their humor. It really puts people on the spot. I'm glad you told her exactly what you were thinking. I hope I would do the same in that situation.

Me, too. If I go see a comic live, I can't sit anywhere near the stage, becuase I don't want them to talk to me or about me. I want to be an observer, not a participant.

Good for you, Awoke, for standing up for what you believe in.

[mick silver]

thanks for the read awoke and i glad you toke a stand . i also am very hard haeded and never back down right are wrong it just me . if i would of been there i would of got up and took a stand with you be good . we need more people to take a stand an not want to be the same as everyone else in the room that what gets me .

[Old Herb Lady]

The devil has his claws sunk deeply into this world.


Oh, Awoke ! Ugh ! What a situation to be in ! So glad that you stood up for the unborn. They need to be heard through people like you who aren't afraid to stand up for what is right.

The devil does have his claws dug in deep. People have no respect for the sanctity of life.

Until women stop spreading their legs to any man that looks at them
and until every man stops sticking that thing wherever he feels like it and no one has any respect for proper intimate relations then abortion will still be rampant.

I know so many women that have had abortions and every single last one of them has some kind of a mental issue.
They never get over what they've done. Ever.

They're not a mother without a baby. They're a mother with a dead/murdered baby who is responsible for killing it .

Keep up the good fight !

[LuckyStrike]

It's a sad state of affairs man, nothing else I can say.

Doing what you did is the right thing to do and I commend you for it.

[mrnhtbr2232]

I was on the other side of this issue for many years. The part about it being a woman's choice is powerful, yet it damns her to choose killing her own baby. While I don't have everything figured out, I do know now that the unborn are the miracle of life, and the last refuge of innocence in an otherwise corrupt world.

Awoke, you have done a good thing. Principle demands defending those that cannot speak for themselves. The majesty of creation is what is being blotted out of our world. Replacing it is the Golden Calf of digital self-gratification. It is all around us - the sky, the ground, the plants - no one sees it any more. More troubling, no one appreciates it any more. No profit, no value.

You continue to provide deep thought through your words Awoke, and remind people like me that there's many perspectives to learn from and how ignorant we still are. We just popped our third grand kid - starting to get old, man - wondering why it has to be so intense when knowing the truth is most of the battle.

[freespirit]

man! i wish i had been with you two for that one!

[zap]

Ok I guess I am the only one on this site who is for abortion, so go ahead cuss me out,
here's an example of one who should of had an abortion,

A guy in our town (used to live there) has 3 brothers in mental institutions, I am not sure what they have, but schizophrenia is one, and their brains never devoloped past a 10 year old, this guy hooked up with one of the known crank flies and she got pregnant, they were at the bar/liquor store celebrating (both drinking and smoking) while she was pregnant, and they both have been seen coming out of the dealers house, everyone in town knows him, he sells crank, well she had the baby, and I saw all 3 of them in the liquor store the other day as she was drinking beer while smoking and breast feeding. So where will this all end up ?

A baby without a chance? maybe she should have had a abortion? Do you think these people are the only ones?

[chad]

i'm not beating up on you, but i don't presume to know the baby doesn't have a chance. maybe the parents will put him up for adoption because they get tired of him, the state will take him away because of child endangerment, maybe the parents will od on drugs and he'll end up foster care, whatever. maybe the kid will end up alright. certainly beats vacuuming him out and flushing him down the drain because his parents were fuckups, in my opinion.

[LuckyStrike]

Ok I guess I am the only one on this site who is for abortion, so go ahead cuss me out,
here's an example of one who should of had an abortion,

A guy in our town (used to live there) has 3 brothers in mental institutions, I am not sure what they have, but schizophrenia is one, and their brains never devoloped past a 10 year old, this guy hooked up with one of the known crank flies and she got pregnant, they were at the bar/liquor store celebrating (both drinking and smoking) while she was pregnant, and they both have been seen coming out of the dealers house, everyone in town knows him, he sells crank, well she had the baby, and I saw all 3 of them in the liquor store the other day as she was drinking beer while smoking and breast feeding. So where will this all end up ?

A baby without a chance? maybe she should have had a abortion? Do you think these people are the only ones?

The tail doesn't wag the dog.

I don't doubt your scenario but I think you would agree that it is the very very very small minority of cases.

[zap]

This is a god honest truth, I feel so sorry for that baby, I can't beleive the hospital let them take it home, little guy doesn't have a chance.

I wish she would have had an abortion.

Really Lucky, you think this is a small minority, I think there are more out there like these two then we think.

[freespirit]

i'm not beating up on you either zap, but i have to say, but in post #23 the first thing that came to my mind was this...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZGrKv9mPLc

[Golden]

This is a god honest truth, I feel so sorry for that baby, I can't beleive the hospital let them take it home, little guy doesn't have a chance.

The hospital isn't the problem here and the little guys chance is hypothetical.


I wish she would have had an abortion.

You wish death? I wish that you shall pray for this child.

[ximmy]

Zap, I consider myself pro-choice (with problems). I believe in freedom of choice for individuals.. that being said, I can't agree with most of the reasons a woman would have an abortion... but that leaves open the option to consider special circumstances.

I remember reading a testimony of a woman (Olga Lengyel) in the nazi prisoner camps. She said her and some of the other nurses would induce the labor of pregnant women before the nazis could seize the infant, because the nazis would experiment with the neonates... and they (Olga and the other nurses) would kill the infants.. :(

[LuckyStrike]

believe in freedom of choice for individuals..

I can assure you the babies themselves choose to live, the mothers choose otherwise and in doing so end another individuals freedom.

[ximmy]

I can assure you the babies themselves choose to live, the mothers choose otherwise and in doing so end another individuals freedom.

Don't take what I said out of context... or I will abort you...

[zap]

The hospital isn't the problem here and the little guys chance is hypothetical.



You wish death? I wish that you shall pray for this child.

Yes I wish death, because even though it is nasty and terrible to think of, I don't think an fetus, would have a clue that it was going to die, I don't think it would have any fear or terror. I don't know about praying, It would be nice if praying did help.

I don't agree with abortions taking place in the 2nd trimester, I think if they were to abort a baby it would have to be very early, 4 weeks at the latest.

This is just my opinion.

[LuckyStrike]

Don't take what I said out of context... or I will abort you...

You think I took it out of context, or do you think I presented it in a way you hadn't thought of before?

[ximmy]

You think I took it out of context, or do you think I presented it in a way you hadn't thought of before?

You get Ximmy's exclusive DUMBASS Award... Congratulations!!


I consider myself pro-choice (with problems). ::)

[zap]

You get Ximmy's exclusive DUMBASS Award... Congratulations!!


I consider myself pro-choice (with problems). ::)

Mee too XIMMY

[freespirit]

Yes I wish death, because even though it is nasty and terrible to think of, I don't think an fetus, would have a clue that it was going to die, I don't think it would have any fear or terror. I don't know about praying, It would be nice if praying did help.

I don't agree with abortions taking place in the 2nd trimester, I think if they were to abort a baby it would have to be very early, 4 weeks at the latest.

This is just my opinion.

now there's the clincher right there...at what point do we credit the infant with "people" status and stop regarding it as an object?

[zap]

I don't know the answer, FS

[LuckyStrike]

You get Ximmy's exclusive DUMBASS Award... Congratulations!!


I consider myself pro-choice (with problems). ::)

Perhaps you can try wording it less awkwardly so it becomes intelligible.

[ximmy]

now there's the clincher right there...at what point do we credit the infant with "people" status and stop regarding it as an object?

A human is never not a human

[freespirit]

A human is never not a human

therefore termination of that innocent human's life force would be considered murder then, would it not?

[freespirit]

fyi- i would classify myself as "anti-abortion, with problems"...

[ximmy]

Perhaps you can try wording it less awkwardly so it becomes intelligible.

OK, fair enough, I apologize... can I ask what you would do, if given the situation of Olga Lengyel, hypothetically??

"I remember reading a testimony of a woman (Olga Lengyel) in the nazi prisoner camps. She said her and some of the other nurses would induce the labor of pregnant women before the nazis could seize the infant, because the nazis would experiment with the neonates... and they (Olga and the other nurses) would kill the infants.. :("

[ximmy]

therefore termination of that innocent human's life force would be considered murder then, would it not?

I believe when a human is killed there are varying degrees, murder, manslaughter, killing, accidental death, death by misadventure etc... so to answer your question, not necessarily

[freespirit]

I believe when a human is killed there are varying degrees, murder, manslaughter, killing, accidental death, death by misadventure etc... so to answer your question, not necessarily


out of the 5 that you posted, which would you pick to define abortion?

[zap]

This isn't directed at you Ximmy,

We can go round and round, "it is what it is" if you want to call it murder ok, call it whatever you want.

I am pro choice.

[Golden]

Yes I wish death, because even though it is nasty and terrible to think of, I don't think an fetus, would have a clue that it was going to die, I don't think it would have any fear or terror. I don't know about praying, It would be nice if praying did help.

I don't agree with abortions taking place in the 2nd trimester, I think if they were to abort a baby it would have to be very early, 4 weeks at the latest.

Death is natural as birth. You can't be a lil pregnant.


This is just my opinion.

Thank God.

[LuckyStrike]

OK, fair enough, I apologize... can I ask what you would do, if given the situation of Olga Lengyel, hypothetically??

"I remember reading a testimony of a woman (Olga Lengyel) in the nazi prisoner camps. She said her and some of the other nurses would induce the labor of pregnant women before the nazis could seize the infant, because the nazis would experiment with the neonates... and they (Olga and the other nurses) would kill the infants.. :("

Read this and put your mind to rest.

http://www.cwporter.com/fivech.htm

[freespirit]

This isn't directed at you Ximmy,

We can go round and round, "it is what it is" if you want to call it murder ok, call it whatever you want.

I am pro choice.

that's fine, zap. i don't recall giving you any shit over your opinion on it, so don't get your back up, ok?

i am just trying to get a better understanding of what is clearly a very sensitive issue.

for myself, i believe abortions should not be allowed, unless carrying to term will be life threatening for the mother.
so i, like many, are conflicted on the issue.

[zap]

that's fine, zap. i don't recall giving you any shit over your opinion on it, so don't get your back up, ok?

i am just trying to get a better understanding of what is clearly a very sensitive issue.

for myself, i believe abortions should not be allowed, unless carrying to term will be life threatening for the mother.
so i, like many, are conflicted on the issue.

I don't have a problem with any of you guys FS,My back isn't up :) I just thought I would say it plain and honest. Like I said we can call it anything we want, It is what it is.

[freespirit]

cool...you just seemed to get a little defensive is all, and i didn't want to offend.

[ximmy]

Read this and put your mind to rest.

http://www.cwporter.com/fivech.htm

I have read that, it's in the book, that is in my possession. Thank you. Read this and please let me know what you would do? Hypothetically of course...

"We five whose responsibility it was to bring these infants into the world, felt that the burden of this monstrous conclusion which defied all human and moral law. How many sleepless nights we spend turning this tragic dilemma over in our minds. One day we decided we had been weak long enough, we must at least try to save the mothers. To carry out our plan, we would have to make the infants pass for stillborn. Unfortunately, the fate of the baby had to be the same. We pinched and closed the little tike’s nostrils and when it opened its mouth to breathe, we gave it a dose of lethal product. An injection might have been quicker, but we risked having left a trace and dared not let the Germans suspect the truth. We placed the dead infant in the same box which had brought if from the barrack, if the accouchement had taken place there. As far as the camp administration was concerned, this was a stillbirth. And so the Germans had succeeded in making murderer’s of even us. To this day the picture of those murdered babies haunts me." (Abridged quote from Five Chimney's for clarity... ::) )

[LuckyStrike]

I have read that, it's in the book, that is in my possession. Thank you. Read this and please let me know what you would do? Hypothetically of course...

"We five whose responsibility it was to bring these infants into the world, felt that the burden of this monstrous conclusion which defied all human and moral law. How many sleepless nights we spend turning this tragic dilemma over in our minds. One day we decided we had been weak long enough, we must at least try to save the mothers. To carry out our plan, we would have to make the infants pass for stillborn. Unfortunately, the fate of the baby had to be the same. We pinched and closed the little tike’s nostrils and when it opened its mouth to breathe, we gave it a dose of lethal product. An injection might have been quicker, but we risked having left a trace and dared not let the Germans suspect the truth. We placed the dead infant in the same box which had brought if from the barrack, if the accouchement had taken place there. As far as the camp administration was concerned, this was a stillbirth. And so the Germans had succeeded in making murderer’s of even us. To this day the picture of those murdered babies haunts me." (Abridged quote from Five Chimney's for clarity... ::) )

Yes, I'm telling you it is a lie, so put your mind to rest. You can come out from under the bed now the evil nazis arent coming to get you.

So hypotheticals are dumb, it's like "hypothetically would you support abortion if someone was going to disembowel your 4th grade teacher in front of the students. then force them to eat his belly button lint? I mean on one hand its only 1 fetus, but the other you have a class full of 4th graders who will be scarred for life"

See how dumb that is and how it has NOTHING to do with reality?

[ximmy]

Yes, I'm telling you it is a lie, so put your mind to rest. You can come out from under the bed now the evil nazis arent coming to get you.

So hypotheticals are dumb, it's like "hypothetically would you support abortion if someone was going to disembowel your 4th grade teacher in front of the students. then force them to eat his belly button lint? I mean on one hand its only 1 fetus, but the other you have a class full of 4th graders who will be scarred for life"

See how dumb that is and how it has NOTHING to do with reality?

::) ::) http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/kentperrier/huge_rolleyes.gif

[LuckyStrike]

::) ::) http://i689.photobucket.com/albums/vv251/kentperrier/huge_rolleyes.gif

My thoughts exactly.

[freespirit]

my! what big eyes you have, ximmy!!

lol
;)

[Awoke]

I am not going on the attack, Xim and Zap. You have your opinions, and so do I.

I just want to assure you that the only reason you are pro-abortion (with or without problems) is because the luciferian media and school system and society has programmed you to be such.

Abortion and the "choice" is veiled in an obfuscating cloak of "women's rights", and touted to be an anti-chauvist-inspired liberation tool, to free you poor, oppressed women from your lowly status of "Nurturer/care giver", and to elevate you to the suddenly all important status of "Equal".

It's a line of shit.

The PTB have you thinking that it's all about what is convenient for you in your life, and that the consequences are negligable. I assure you that I believe that Abortion is the most abhorrent form of murder in the eyes of God, our Creator, who gave us this gift of procreation to begin with. But I know you're not religious, so that probably means "fuck all" to you girls.
As far as the Church goes, it is the most serious sin.

Satan has the world fooled into thinking that they are battling for equality, when in reality they are murdering babies, in the womb.
But you can't see it in there, can you? So it's not really real, is it?

You tell me.

http://curezone.com/upload/photos/amazing/baby_grab/armas1.jpg

(Yes, that is a baby in the womb, grabbing a surgeons finger)

The fact that so far the only people who have spoken up to say "I am in favor of blendering babies" are women, is a testament to how powerful the programming is.






I can assure you the babies themselves choose to live, the mothers choose otherwise and in doing so end another individuals freedom.

Maximumrebel1: I would thank you a million times for that post if I could.
Pro-choice should mean "Let the baby choose".

[Old Herb Lady]

Yes I wish death, because even though it is nasty and terrible to think of, I don't think an fetus, would have a clue that it was going to die, I don't think it would have any fear or terror. I don't know about praying, It would be nice if praying did help.

I don't agree with abortions taking place in the 2nd trimester, I think if they were to abort a baby it would have to be very early, 4 weeks at the latest.

This is just my opinion.


Zap, I don't think too many women even know they're pregnant at 4 weeks ?

Also, I know too much about abortion that it makes me so ill that I can't even talk about it.

Sometimes they make those women drink poisonous drinks before the procedure to poison the baby so that the baby dies easier for them.
The baby does feel the pain. It's arms & legs get ripped off of its body. Sometimes born alive & thrown into a bucket.

There are abortions performed in some hospitals where in that very same hospital mothers are giving birth & fighting & fighting for a healthy delivery & for the life of their baby.

http://www.prolife.com/

I even know someone who had a late term abortion......had to travel to another state & she was a Christian .

[Ares]

Good for you Awoke.

Being the sarcastic smartass that I am, I would of just retorted that since you're talking about abortion so much, you must be mirroring your entire act because it literally is an abortion and just needs to walk off the stage.

[DMac]

Please no more bloody baby pictures. It's 2011, the internet has been here for a while, we all know what murdered children look like.

TIA

:mad: :'(


Edit - on the topic...

Personally I'm anti-abortion in a similar way that I am anti-suicide. It is the coward's way out of what is perceived to be a difficult situation.

The only time I support abortive technology is 1. within short time span of conception (1 month limit) AND 2. conception was due to incest or rape.

[horseshoe3]

a lot of today's 'comedy' passes for just insulting people. joy behar, for example, is supposedly a famous 'comic.' or kathy griffin. take your pic. all either of them do, really, is insult people whose politics they disagree with, and then it's 'funny.'

From "The Screwtape Letters" scroll down to "Flippancy" if you don't want to read the whole thing:

I divide the causes of human laughter into Joy, Fun, the Joke Proper, and
Flippancy. You will see the first among friends and lovers reunited on the eve
of a holiday. Among adults some pretext in the way of Jokes is usually provided,
but the facility with which the smallest witticisms produce laughter at such a
time shows that they are not the real cause. What that real cause is we do not
know. Something like it is expressed in much of that detestable art which the
humans call Music, and something like it occurs in Heaven—a meaningless
acceleration in the rhythm of celestial experience, quite opaque to us. Laughter
of this kind does us no good and should always be discouraged. Besides, the
phenomenon is of itself disgusting and a direct insult to the realism, dignity,
and austerity of Hell.
Fun is closely related to Joy—a sort of emotional froth arising from the play
instinct. It is very little use to us. It can sometimes be used, of course, to
divert humans from something else which the Enemy would like them to be feeling
or doing: but in itself it has wholly undesirable tendencies; it promotes
charity, courage, contentment, and many other evils.
The Joke Proper, which turns on sudden perception of incongruity, is a much more
promising field. I am not thinking primarily of indecent or bawdy humour, which,
though much relied upon by second-rate tempters, is often disappointing in its
results. The truth is that humans are pretty clearly divided on this matter into
two classes. There are some to whom "no passion is as serious as lust" and for
whom an indecent story ceases to produce lasciviousness precisely in so far as
it becomes funny: there are others in whom laughter and lust are excited at the
same moment and by the same things. The first sort joke about sex because it
gives rise to many incongruities: the second cultivate incongruities because
they afford a pretext for talking about sex. If your man is of the first type,
bawdy humour will not help you—I shall never forget the hours which I wasted
(hours to me of unbearable tedium) with one of my early patients in bars and
smoking-rooms before I learned this rule. Find out which group the patient
belongs to—and see that he does not find out.
The real use of Jokes or Humour is in quite a different direction, and it is
specially promising among the English who take their "sense of humour" so
seriously that a deficiency in this sense is almost the only deficiency at which
they feel shame. Humour is for them the all-consoling and (mark this) the
all-excusing, grace of life. Hence it is invaluable as a means of destroying
shame. If a man simply lets others pay for him, he is "mean"; if he boasts of it
in a jocular manner and twits his fellows with having been scored off, he is no
longer "mean" but a comical fellow. Mere cowardice is shameful; cowardice
boasted of with humorous exaggerations and grotesque gestures can passed off as
funny. Cruelty is shameful—unless the cruel man can represent it as a practical
joke. A thousand bawdy, or even blasphemous, jokes do not help towards a man's
damnation so much as his discovery that almost anything he wants to do can be
done, not only without the disapproval but with the admiration of his fellows,
if only it can get itself treated as a Joke. And this temptation can be almost
entirely hidden from your patient by that English seriousness about Humour. Any
suggestion that there might be too much of it can be represented to him as
"Puritanical" or as betraying a "lack of humour".
But flippancy is the best of all. In the first place it is very economical. Only
a clever human can make a real Joke about virtue, or indeed about anything else;
any of them can be trained to talk as if virtue were funny. Among flippant
people the Joke is always assumed to have been made. No one actually makes it;
but every serious subject is discussed in a manner which implies that they have
already found a ridiculous side to it. If prolonged, the habit of Flippancy
builds up around a man the finest armour-plating against the Enemy that I know,
and it is quite free from the dangers inherent in the other sources of laughter.
It is a thousand miles away from joy it deadens, instead of sharpening, the
intellect; and it excites no affection between those who practice it,

[horseshoe3]

out of the 5 that you posted, which would you pick to define abortion?

Well, let's see. Intentional. Premeditated. Done for one's own personal gain/convenience. I think there's only one of the 5 that qualifies.

[Awoke]

Please no more bloody baby pictures.

Look again. It's a baby that is in the womb. The doctor performed surgery on the baby while it was still in the womb, to save its life. That picture is part of a beautiful story.




The picture is that of a 21-week-old unborn baby named Samuel Alexander Armas, who is being operated on by surgeon named Joseph Bruner.

The baby was diagnosed with spina bifida and would not survive if removed from his mother's womb. Little Samuel's mother! , Julie Armas, is an obstetrics nurse in Atlanta . She knew of Dr Bruner's remarkable surgical procedure. Practicing at Vanderbilt Univ Med Ctr in Nashville , he performs these special operations while the baby is still in the womb.

During the procedure, the doctor removes the uterus via C-section and makes a small incision to operate on the baby. As Dr Bruner completed the surgery on Samuel, the little guy reached his tiny, but fully developed hand through the incision and firmly grasped the surgeon's finger. Dr Bruner was reported as saying that when his finger was grasped, it was the most emotional moment of his life, and that for an instant during the procedure he was just frozen, totally immobile.

The photograph captures this amazing event with perfect clarity The editors titled the picture, 'Hand of Hope.' The text explaining the picture begins, 'The tiny hand of 21-week-old fetus Samuel Alexander Armas emerges from the mother's uterus to grasp the finger of Dr Joseph Bruner as if thanking the doctor for the gift of life.'

Little Samuel's mother said they 'wept for days' when they saw the picture. She said, 'The photo reminds us pregnancy isn't about disability or an illness, it's about a little person.'

Samuel was born in perfect health, the operation 100percent successful.




http://www.guardianangel.in/ga/227-P-Popup-Unborn-baby-grabs-surgeon--.html

[Awoke]

Just sayin:

http://gold-silver.us/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1340&d=1318946626

1340

[Santa]

What would happen if the State got out of the abortion issue altogether? No legality one way or another. No promotion, no law, no force.

[sirgonzo420]

What would happen if the State got out of the abortion issue altogether? No legality one way or another. No promotion, no law, no force.

That's the way the State should act regarding everything...


The "abortion" issue falls under the "property rights" issue. The government supposedly exists to protect property rights, like the right of a baby not to be murdered.

If the State decides *not* to honor and uphold property rights, then the State should get the fuck out of the way and let people be (anarchically) free.

[Awoke]

Babies are not dogs, and are not property. They have the same inalienable rights that you have.

[sirgonzo420]

Babies are not dogs, and are not property. They have the same inalienable rights that you have.


That is my point.

Babies have property rights.

Your first piece of property is your own body.

[Awoke]

I misunderstood.

[big country]

Here is the thing that gets me about abortion:

If I were to punch a woman and cause her to lose an unborn baby, I would be charged with murder.
If a woman choses to have an abortion and loses an unborn baby, nothing is wrong with that.
So does that mean that the unborn baby is only human if the mother WANTS it? I don't understand how the state can have it both ways...

-----
Completely unrelated to my first point, but is a life story.

We had to have an abortion 2 months ago. We had an ectopic pregnancy, my wife was 5 weeks pregnant at that point. We didn't even know she was pregnant (she just started having periods again after the birth of our first child...breastfed...so her periods were VERY irregular still) until she was having pains and went to get it checked out. We were past your 4wk cut off period. We have struggled with that for the last two months ALOT. We are both Christians and have had Christians that we look up to talk with us about it. I still feel like it wasn't the right choice...although there isn't really any other choice. It is an AWFUL experience -- I wouldn't wish it on anyone...yet there are people that CHOOSE to do this? I don't understand...

[Old Herb Lady]

I think some people would be very very upset if I would say like I was going to abort the puppies inside of my pregnant dog, but if it's a woman......well......

[Golden]

Just because everyone else is doing it doesn't make it right.

[Tumbleweed]

Probably the best solution in the situation Zap shared would be to try and get that couple to give the child up for adoption. Then offering to pay for having his testacles and her ovaries removed if they are willing.

About the only situation where I have a problem is where there may have been brutal rape. In that situation one of those morning after pills would be ok but I struggle with that too.

[Awoke]

A lot of people would have had a late term abortion if they found out their child had spina bifida. The parents of Samual chose life and had him operated on in the womb, as I posted a picture of.


Now this is that boy today, holding up some ribbons that I assume he won in swimming contests: Samual Armas.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR8KHCQN1Uu68VS2ZIP1yGqD6GBuKwak 7x7tzt9jsid4VYZnY3_zZUpgpwkwA

[horseshoe3]

Here is the thing that gets me about abortion:

If I were to punch a woman and cause her to lose an unborn baby, I would be charged with murder.
If a woman choses to have an abortion and loses an unborn baby, nothing is wrong with that.
So does that mean that the unborn baby is only human if the mother WANTS it? I don't understand how the state can have it both ways...

-----
Completely unrelated to my first point, but is a life story.

We had to have an abortion 2 months ago. We had an ectopic pregnancy, my wife was 5 weeks pregnant at that point. We didn't even know she was pregnant (she just started having periods again after the birth of our first child...breastfed...so her periods were VERY irregular still) until she was having pains and went to get it checked out. We were past your 4wk cut off period. We have struggled with that for the last two months ALOT. We are both Christians and have had Christians that we look up to talk with us about it. I still feel like it wasn't the right choice...although there isn't really any other choice. It is an AWFUL experience -- I wouldn't wish it on anyone...yet there are people that CHOOSE to do this? I don't understand...

I'm very sorry to hear that, big country. I have thought about ectopic pregnancy and what we would do if we had one. As much as I would hate to, this is the ONLY case where I could justify an abortion. The reason being that the child is already doomed and to allow my wife to die as well would be foolish. I know that we are not to kill humans even if they are doomed, but it would be an even bigger sin to let two humans die by inaction.

[Golden]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvIaH6zcGoU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvIaH6zcGoU
Uploaded by thevoice1969 on Dec 25, 2009

[Santa]

A problem I see is that if abortion were treated as murder, which would presumably require the State to treat it as a legal issue,
then there would be many many young girls being prosecuted for murder and going to prison.
And also, what would we, er, I mean the State, do with all the additional babies born to unwanted, unprepared, sick, retarded, parents?
Wouldn't they all wind up as wards of the State?
Just think of the millions of additional institutionally raised retards we'd wind up with if abortion were treated like murder.

Seriously, how many good families can be expected to adopt retards and crack babies, to put it bluntly.

Abortion, as it is practiced today, is a modern compromise to an age old problem.
Even the great Greek philosophers had to consider what needed to be done about these kids.
Their solution was to discretely remove the newborn from the birth mother and take it outside to die from the elements.

Infanticide.

This is a problem that will never go away, so long as we remain human.

Anyhow, after weighing the results of abortion with any other alternative, and so far any alternative I can envision seems to require State sanctioned force upon young women, I remain pro-choice.

If we can somehow create a society in which young boys and girls
don't play hanky panky, I'll be amazed. Sure, maybe the hanky panky can be reduced through social taboos, but here's the thing.

Sex is power. From the most basic pheromone chemistry right on up
to the top of the Political Pyramid, Sex is Power.
No amount of social finger wagging will ever end inappropriate sexual contact.
Me, personally? Abortion is none of my business.

[Awoke]

Anyhow, after weighing the results of abortion with any other alternative, and so far any alternative I can envision seems to require State sanctioned force upon young women, I remain pro-choice.

You are against state santioned "force" upon young women, but not against state sanctioned butchery of children while they are in the safest place they could ever be; the mothers womb.
I would call that state sanctioned force: chopping up a living baby, "legally".


The "state" shouldn't be involved at all, to begin with, because there should be no need of that to begin with, because the nature of the act is so abhorrent.


Look. Here is the truth and the absolute bottom line.

Without the NWO and the satanic tools they have in place you would have never heard of abortion. You have all learned about it in school and through media. Every last one of you.

There is not a woman in existance who would not be horrified at the very thought of abortion, if she had never been tainted/swayed/influenced by the modern day satanic agenda through the brainwashing tools they use.

If you took a woman who lived a sheltered life, so sheltered from the satanic elite that she had never heard of abortion before, and you told her that it is normal and convenient for women to kill the babies inside them, her blood would run cold and she would be mortified.

Make no mistake. The ONLY SINGLE REASON that this topic is up for debate is because you are a victim of conditioning.

The act of abortion at its root is so diabolical that for it to even be up for consideration is lamentable.

Abortion is only an option because you have been programmed to think it is.

Anyone free from the sway of TPTB's satanic influence would excommunicate child-killers from their village.

[sirgonzo420]

I'm inclined to agree with Awoke, but I also appreciate what Santa is saying. For example, if my wife were raped, I'd rather have an abortion than have her carry it to term and raise it or put it up for adoption.

Not that that would be "right"; the murder of innocents never is. But it's what I would probably do.

Who woulda ever thought Santa is pro-"choice"?


I guess it makes sense... less gifts to carry.

[Awoke]

Adoption is the option.

[Dogman]

Adoption is the option. The one thing that bothers me is forcing the woman to carry a baby of a man that raped/violated her, to term. That is punishing the woman BIG time for her to carry the child of her raper. Which is the bigger sin , a child born of a rapist or terminating a child conceived in sin?

Forcing the woman to carry that burden 24/7 until term, that in its self IMHO is a very large crime to inflict upon the woman , the constant reminder until birth and the mental baggage after.

[sirgonzo420]

Adoption is the option.

For more honorable men than I perhaps, but I don't believe I could watch my raped wife carry her attacker's child for nine months to get to the adoption stage.

Of course, I'd likely do some not-very-nice things to the rapist too, if I were to find him, instead of calling pretend "authorities".

[Awoke]

I can't agree. I don't see it as "Forcing" the woman to do anything.

The act of rape is a violent and unacceptable crime, but carrying a baby is a normal and healthy occurance. As much as they are related, they are also very unrelated. If the woman was adamant to have the child killed, she would have to do it herself and be answerable for that at a later date, by the Lord.

She should not be able to walk into a clinic and have a tube stuck up her and walk out empty.

Dogman, make no mistake: The unborn child is not sinful.

[big country]

If you're regularly having sex with your wife (unless you are fixed) how can you be sure that the child is the rapists and not yours? Are there paternity tests they can do before the child is born before the third trimester (aren't abortions outlawed in the 3rd trimester now? I admit I'm not sure)?

My wife and I have sex regularly enough that there is no way I could be certain that it was the rapists child and not mine.

[Dogman]

I can't agree. I don't see it as "Forcing" the woman to do anything.

The act of rape is a violent and unacceptable crime, but carrying a baby is a normal and healthy occurance. As much as they are related, they are also very unrelated. If the woman was adamant to have the child killed, she would have to do it herself and be answerable for that at a later date, by the Lord.

She should not be able to walk into a clinic and have a tube stuck up her and walk out empty.

Dogman, make no mistake: The unborn child is not sinful. True, if the child was conceived in love and the woman wanted it. What some here are saying is that woman have lesser rights than men.

A child that is created in an act of hate/violence against a woman by a stranger is not conceived in love/want , and the woman should not be forced to carry that child.

Yes it is natural!


But rape is not, unless one thinks it is OK to do so. But for most civilized society's it is condemned and the woman should not have to endure to carry the product of a savage union.

[Awoke]

What some here are saying is that woman have lesser rights than men.



No, what pro-choice people are saying is that women can kill children with impunity.

[sirgonzo420]

If you're regularly having sex with your wife (unless you are fixed) how can you be sure that the child is the rapists and not yours? Are there paternity tests they can do before the child is born before the third trimester (aren't abortions outlawed in the 3rd trimester now? I admit I'm not sure)?

My wife and I have sex regularly enough that there is no way I could be certain that it was the rapists child and not mine.

Good point.

Admittedly, I haven't fully thought out the scenario.

I was just posting what my instinct would likely be, for good or ill.

[Santa]

She should not be able to walk into a clinic and have a tube stuck up her and walk out empty.
I agree with you that the State should butt out completely, but to condemn it wholesale as "murder" is in effect, a demand for State action. And the State
is the Police, and the Police are the prisons, and the prisons are the Satanic Police State.


If the woman was adamant to have the child killed, she would have to do it herself and be answerable for that at a later date, by the Lord.This is indeed the only true solution.

[Awoke]

I am not trying to sound cheesey here, but I have to say unborn children have no way to defend themselves. They have no voice. They can't start up societies and push for equality, and whine and cry and carry signs and abuse the media.

These babies need people like you to defend them.

Dogman, you are falling for the programming that I addressed previously.
Understand, the act of murdering a baby does not elevate a woman to the "same status" as a man.

The whole fucking thing is an insult to our intelligence anyways! Who the fuck ever said men were more important than women? Or vice-versa?

God created us to be partners. We need eath other. We are equally as important and equally dependant on each other. We have different strengths and weaknesses, but we were made for each other.

Any "superiority" claims by one or the other are just more division tactics, imo.

Abortion, race mixing, promotion of homosexuality, Cultural salad bowls, all this shit serves the PTB in their agenda.

[Joe King]

When does one become a living being?

[Uncle Salty]

I can't agree. I don't see it as "Forcing" the woman to do anything.

The act of rape is a violent and unacceptable crime, but carrying a baby is a normal and healthy occurance. As much as they are related, they are also very unrelated. If the woman was adamant to have the child killed, she would have to do it herself and be answerable for that at a later date, by the Lord.

She should not be able to walk into a clinic and have a tube stuck up her and walk out empty.

Dogman, make no mistake: The unborn child is not sinful.

The unborn child has its own karma...yes, just like the mother who chooses to abort? It is all karma. We make it and then sow it...good and bad over many many incarnations.

[sirgonzo420]

When does one become a living being?


One is always a living being.

;)

[Uncle Salty]

When does one become a living being?

Life is life. Man cannot create it, it can only end it. A two day old "fetus" has life...not as much perhaps as a day old baby...but it is life.

[Awoke]

Salty, I don't buy into Karma and all that.

I live by the Christian doctrine, reap what thou sow. Remember that if you're ever positioned to murder a baby in the womb.

[Dogman]

No, what pro-choice people are saying is that women can kill children with impunity. I sort of am on the fence in some ways on this issue. I firmly believe that in the case of the health of the woman and or rape, if she wants to terminate that is her choice.

Now here is the area that bothers me, I firmly believe that woman have the same/equal rights as men do, unlike others in the orld/society's that look at women as less than men when it comes to rights.

Men can rape/procreate with no burden, slam/bang/thank you ma'am and walk away, but the woman does not have that choice. So do we condemn the woman to raise a child that is unwanted?

Yes adoption is an option , but there is the age old dilemma , when it comes to sex the man can run away, the woman can not.

So like Zap and others call me pro-choice.

Because I do believe that woman should have full rights and freedoms as men enjoy and those rights do extend to the right of having children or not!

Am I fully comfortable with it , no I am not!

But I do think it as fair.

IMHO


Edit: I also believe the state/politicians should butt out of it , this is a personal/private choice.

[Joe King]

Life is life. Man cannot create it, it can only end it. A two day old "fetus" has life...not as much perhaps as a day old baby...but it is life.If man can't create it, how'd the fetus get there? It didn't create itself, did it? lol

[Dogman]

I am not trying to sound cheesey here, but I have to say unborn children have no way to defend themselves. They have no voice. They can't start up societies and push for equality, and whine and cry and carry signs and abuse the media.

These babies need people like you to defend them.

Dogman, you are falling for the programming that I addressed previously.
Understand, the act of murdering a baby does not elevate a woman to the "same status" as a man.

The whole fucking thing is an insult to our intelligence anyways! Who the fuck ever said men were more important than women? Or vice-versa?

God created us to be partners. We need eath other. We are equally as important and equally dependant on each other. We have different strengths and weaknesses, but we were made for each other.

Any "superiority" claims by one or the other are just more division tactics, imo.

Abortion, race mixing, promotion of homosexuality, Cultural salad bowls, all this shit serves the PTB in their agenda. Sorry but wrong, been doing my own thinking for most of my life.

[Awoke]

Hmm. So the fact that a woman is the human that carries a baby to term gives her the right to kill?
Just 'cause a man can dine & dash?

I fail to see how that gives a woman the right to take a life. Again, you're basing this all around convenience. As much as you think you've been doing your own thinking for most of your life, your pro-choice justifications are right out of the handbook.




If you really stop and think about it, you are giving the woman more rights than anyone else: The right to take life away.

[Dogman]

Hmm. So the fact that a woman is the human that carries a baby to term gives her the right to kill?
Just 'cause a man can dine & dash?

I fail to see how that gives a woman the right to take a life. Again, you're basing this all around convenience. As much as you think you've been doing your own thinking for most of your life, your pro-choice justifications are right out of the handbook.




If you really stop and think about it, you are giving the woman more rights than anyone else: The right to take life away.

I am of the school that man/woman should be able to do anything they want with no rules unless they cause harm or bother others. Most of the antis I can understand the wheres and whys.

But my belief comes more from my deism nature.

[Awoke]

I am of the school that man/woman should be able to do anything they want with no rules unless they cause harm or bother others. Most of the antis I can understand the wheres and whys.

But my belief comes more from my deism nature.

yeah.

[Awoke]

This is the crux: A lot of people don't look at a baby in the womb as a human. Or even as alive. People have been inculcated to think it is nothing more than a blob with no life.

You've been brainwashed.

I won't apologize for it.
Shake your fucking heads free from this magic spell that makes you think it's OK to kill people JUST LIKE YOU, before they leave the womb.

http://www.guardianangel.in/ga/uploads/mailer_pics/teardrop-photo.jpg

That picture could very well have been you. Any one of you.

[Dogman]

yeah. Last post on subject, these kind of threads are good but in general never convince anyone. I was just stating my viewpoint on the subject.

My belief in general is while in the womb, and is in the early stages, yes that is life but with out consciousness. And only when born becomes a person.

I should have said adult men/women in what you highlighted.

[Awoke]

I should have said adult men/women

That reminds me of the story about a young woman with a 5 year old child who walks into the abortion clinic and laments that she is pregnant again, and already has a child, and can barely handle her burdens already.

She pleads with the doctor to abort the baby.

The Doctor offers instead to kill her 5 year old, because the baby will live off breast milk for the first 6 months and be much cheaper to care for.

I don't know if that story is true or made up, but principally speaking it is on point.

And not nearly as sad as this story. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/7646540/Baby-boy-survives-for-nearly-two-days-after-abortion.html)

[SLV^GLD]

My personal thoughts on the rape angle is that our society is so fractured that unplanned children do not have the social fabric in place that naturally existed prior to the destruction of it. That is, abortion is the solution phase of the problem, reaction, solution paradigm. The problem is that we no longer require a village to raise a child. The notion of a self-sustaining village has been destroyed, the notion of a nuclear family has been destroyed and ultimately the notion of the sanctity of life has been destroyed.

Abortion is a symptom of a much larger underlying issue. It's the end-game so to speak.

[midnight rambler]

My belief in general is while in the womb, and is in the early stages, yes that is life but with out consciousness. And only when born becomes a person.

I'm thinking you're very confused. I'm thinking that you're confusing consciousness with cognizance. A baby kicking in the womb is without consciousness?? A 'person' is the creation of the state. And yes, you're right, a fetus is not a 'person' until after the fetus has passed through the birth canal at the port of entry and the state deems the fetus a 'person'.

However, new life does in fact begin at conception - the soul is there from the beginning (it is nonsense that a soul 'enters' the body upon taking one's first breath after passing through the birth canal or being delivered via c-section - if that were the case then the argument could be made that the soul does not enter the body until ANY time after delivery). Those who try to assert otherwise are in rebellion against God imo.

[zap]

What your thoughts are on the morning after pill? Which prevents implantation. I think this would be better then abortion, thoughts?

[Awoke]

I am not about to be a hypocrite.

The correct answer is that no form of birth control is acceptable by rigid Christian standards.

I myself use the withdrawl method which is frowned upon, but is not murder.

I am not in agreement with the morning after pill though, because it is an external/invasive foreign object being used to quash life in it's inception. (I don't know much about it, but I assume it destroys either the egg or the seeds or both, after fertilization)

[Uncle Salty]

If man can't create it, how'd the fetus get there? It didn't create itself, did it? lol


No lab in the world can create human sperm or ova. We are guardians of life, not creators of it.

[steyr_m]

First comment. We live in a weird, sick world where something once a crime , is now a "right"

Second, you should go to the Ont. Human Rights Tribunal. Remember the comedian who heckled the lesbians in BC that went to the BC HRC?

[freespirit]

First comment. We live in a weird, sick world where something once a crime , is now a "right"

Second, you should go to the Ont. Human Rights Tribunal. Remember the comedian who heckled the lesbians in BC that went to the BC HRC?

do you have a link?

[steyr_m]

do you have a link?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/04/21/bc-zestys-comedian-lesbian-insults.html

[Heimdhal]

how anyone can say there is no conciousness until birth is beyond me. You think just cause the baby came out of the mother, it instantly started having thoughts, but not before?

I've been watching my new born for two days. He used to keep my wife up every night between 10 and 11:30, EVERY NIGHT for the last two months. Guess what times hes been awake at the hospital the last two nights, same as the last two months.

A baby will respond to touch, noise and light while in the womb in an manner identical how they do outside of it. An infant will recognize voices from when he was inside the mother. Their actions change very little in the first few weeks from the last few months they spent inside.

Why is that people will instintivley protect and nurture a pregnant woman they have NEVER met in their life in ways that are far different from how they treat others, but the baby is only a human after its been pushed out?

We are beings of our Creators and we are created long before we are born.