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View Full Version : Is there no limit to Congress’s power?



Dogman
20th November 2011, 07:36 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/rw/WashingtonPost/Content/Staff-Bio/Images/george-f-will-114x80.png
George F. Will (http://www.washingtonpost.com/linksets/2010/07/06/ABS9q7D_linkset.html) Opinion Writer

By George F. Will (http://www.washingtonpost.com/george-f-will/2011/02/24/ABVZKXN_page.html), Published: November 18


Shortly before the Supreme Court agreed to rule (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/supreme-court-to-hear-challenge-to-obamas-health-care-overhaul/2011/11/11/gIQALTvrKN_story.html) on the constitutionality of Obamacare’s individual mandate, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit affirmed (http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/055C0349A6E85D7A8525794200579735/$file/11-5047-1340594.pdf) its constitutionality. Writing for the majority, Judge Laurence H. Silberman, a Reagan appointee, brusquely acknowledged that upholding the mandate means there is no limit to Congress’s powers under the Commerce Clause. Fortunately, Silberman’s stark assertion may strengthen the counterargument. Silberman forces the Supreme Court’s five conservatives to face the sobering implications of affirming the power asserted with the mandate.

Does Congress’s enumerated power to regulate interstate commerce empower it (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-supreme-court-and-the-health-care-mandate-muddle/2011/03/10/AB30N5Q_story.html) to compel individuals, as a condition of living in the United States, to engage in a commercial activity? If any activity, or inactivity, can be said to have economic consequences, can it be regulated — or required — by Congress? Can Congress forbid the inactivity of not purchasing a product (health insurance) from a private provider? Silberman says yes (http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/DC-aca-opinion.pdf):

Gallery: Click on picture for video.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_296w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2011/05/27/Editorial-Opinion/Graphics/toles05292011forweb.jpg (http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/toles-on-health-care-reform/2011/04/04/AGvvGPBH_gallery.html)

“We acknowledge some discomfort with the government’s failure to advance any clear doctrinal principles limiting congressional mandates that any American purchase any product or service in interstate commerce. But to tell the truth, those limits are not apparent to us, either because the power to require the entry into commerce is symmetrical with the power to prohibit or condition commercial behavior, or because we have not yet perceived a qualitative limitation. That difficulty is troubling, but not fatal, not least because we are interpreting the scope of a long-established constitutional power, not recognizing a new constitutional right.”Some discomfort about saying limited government is essentially a fiction? Silberman’s distinction between interpreting the scope of a government power and recognizing a right is spurious because rights begin where powers end.

So argues Florida International University’s Elizabeth Price Foley (http://www.elizabethpricefoley.com/), constitutional litigator for the Institute for Justice. She is amazed by Silberman’s disregard of “the inherently symbiotic relationship between the scope of government powers and individual rights.”

She says Silberman has two false assumptions. One is that Congress compelling acts of commerce is “symmetrical” with prohibiting or regulating commerce. The other is that the lack of any principle to limit Congress when purporting to regulate interstate commerce is unimportant because it concerns only government power, not an important liberty interest of individuals.
Silberman’s supposed symmetry between compulsion and regulation ignores the momentous invasion of liberty by the former. If compulsion is authorized whenever Congress touches anything affecting commerce, this Leviathan power dwarfs all other enumerated powers.

Seventy-five years ago, the Supreme Court stopped defending many liberty interests it decided were unimportant. Since the New Deal, Foley says, the court has, without “textual or even contextual basis,” distinguished between economic and non-economic liberty. The latter has received robust judicial support. But economic liberty — freedom of individuals to engage in, or not engage in, consensual commercial transactions — has received scant protection against circumscription or elimination by government. This denial of judicial protection has served the progressive agenda of government supervision of economic life.

Judge Brett Kavanaugh, dissenting on the D.C. circuit court (http://op.bna.com/hl.nsf/id/mapi-8nen7b/$File/seven%20sky.pdf), dryly praised Silberman’s “candor” in “admitting that there is no real limiting principle” to the Commerce Clause jurisprudence embraced by the court’s majority. Kavanaugh, like Foley, emphasizes the asymmetry between, on the one hand, regulating or prohibiting commercial activity and, on the other hand, compelling such activity.

He says the limitlessness means “a law replacing Social Security with a system of mandatory private retirement accounts would be constitutional. So would a law mandating that parents purchase private college savings accounts.” Kavanaugh rejects the majority’s (Silberman’s) attempt “to mitigate the dramatic implications of its no-limiting-principle holding” by noting that “Congress is subject to a political check”:

“As the Supreme Court has told us time and again, the structural principles of the Constitution . . . protect individual liberty. And the courts historically have played an important role in enforcing those structural principles. . . . That Congress is subject to a political check does not absolve the judiciary of its duty to safeguard the constitutional structure and individual liberty.”

There is an abdication of judicial duty in Silberman’s complacent conclusion, which is: We can articulate no limit on Congress’s power flowing from the Commerce Clause; get over it. This might galvanize a Supreme Court majority to say “Enough!” and begin protecting individual liberty from a Commerce Clause that the court itself has transmogrified into an anti-constitutional gift to Congress of a virtually unlimited police power. This case can begin restoring Madison’s constitutional architecture for a government limited by the enumeration of its powers.

georgewill@washpost.com

palani
20th November 2011, 07:45 AM
Does Congress’s enumerated power to regulate interstate commerce empower it to compel individuals, as a condition of living in the United States, to engage in a commercial activity?

If you are in the United States then you have voluntarily entered your body and soul into commerce. If you have a single FRN in your pocket then your lawform is regulated by commerce. If you are in Hong Kong and have a single FRN in your pocket then you are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States even though you are physically without any boundary established for the United States.

Dogman
20th November 2011, 07:54 AM
If you are in the United States then you have voluntarily entered your body and soul into commerce. If you have a single FRN in your pocket then your lawform is regulated by commerce. If you are in Hong Kong and have a single FRN in your pocket then you are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States even though you are physically without any boundary established for the United States.

I thought this post would, make you bite! ;D

At least someone is speaking out about this abuse of the constitution, to the public.

Now we need for this spark to catch fire.

palani
20th November 2011, 08:05 AM
Now we need for this spark to catch fire.

If you look long enough and hard enough you will find the right tool to solve the riddle posed.


When your only tool is coercion, every problem looks like too much freedom.
-- Roy Cordato

7th trump
20th November 2011, 09:26 AM
If you are in the United States then you have voluntarily entered your body and soul into commerce. If you have a single FRN in your pocket then your lawform is regulated by commerce. If you are in Hong Kong and have a single FRN in your pocket then you are subject to the jurisdiction of the United States even though you are physically without any boundary established for the United States.
12USc 411 doesnt say anything to the nature Palani.

gunDriller
20th November 2011, 09:35 AM
right now i'm more concerned about the USDA raiding that woman's public dinner party.

palani
20th November 2011, 09:36 AM
12USc 411 doesnt say anything to the nature Palani.

It does if you read it closely enough. You ONLY hold a FRN as an agent of the federal reserve OR as a federal reserve bank AND FOR NO OTHER PURPOSE. "FOR NO OTHER PURPOSE" can be presumed to negate any other reason than what Congress gives in this statute for holding a FRN.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me. Not arbitrary. No illusion. You have been given an honest notice yet choose to ignore it. Shame on you.

Horn
20th November 2011, 01:13 PM
The are relying on people making use of the U.C. code.

palani
20th November 2011, 01:22 PM
The are relying on people making use of the U.C. code.

True. It is their private code. You don't use someone elses property with impunity.

Actually practically all bills are written by West. The idea of a committee in congress concentrating on a subject long enough to come up with 500 pages of "law" is laughable. Instead these bills are contracted out and authored by think-tanks for hire.

7th trump
21st November 2011, 06:54 AM
It does if you read it closely enough. You ONLY hold a FRN as an agent of the federal reserve OR as a federal reserve bank AND FOR NO OTHER PURPOSE. "FOR NO OTHER PURPOSE" can be presumed to negate any other reason than what Congress gives in this statute for holding a FRN.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me. Not arbitrary. No illusion. You have been given an honest notice yet choose to ignore it. Shame on you.
I beg to differ Palani


TITLE 12 > CHAPTER 3 > SUBCHAPTER XII > § 411
§ 411. Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption
Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.



Definition of FEDERAL RESERVE AGENT
: the director who is designated by the board of governors of the Federal Reserve system as chairman of the board of directors of a Federal Reserve bank and who acts as official representative of the board of governors to the bank.

Basically all 411 states is that federal reserve notes will be authorized to reserve banks through a director (reserve agent) at the discretion of the board of governors (checks and ballances).
Then 411 goes onto saying that these are obligation to the United States (estblishing the same obligation as any US Treasury note would) and receiveable by national and member banks including reserve banks for the purpose of paying public dues (Having the same purpose of public and private debt as Treasury notes were used).
Theres nothing at all stating having one in your pocket makes you a banker or an agent or anything to that nature.

palani
21st November 2011, 07:52 AM
I beg to differ Palani
People frequently differ.



Theres nothing at all stating having one in your pocket makes you a banker or an agent or anything to that nature.
1) An agent is one who acts for another. Show me where you are a principal ... is your name on that note?

2) Law is precise. "Federal Reserve Agent" defining a singular entity (a director) is different from "federal reserve agents". See the difference?

3) Stir the tea leaves and have a peek. The facts fit MY analysis rather than yours.

4) I prefer to identify FRNs as "corporate coupons" as they are prohibited of Man (uneven weights and measures etc). As like can only join with like use of corporate coupons is limited to corporations only. I have no objections if the world of corporations chooses to trade these pieces of paper. For me they are prohibited as I have never been incorporated.

5) The creditor is forced to accept FRNs (legal tender laws and all). That means the debtor is the one offering them and relying upon a benefit endowed by congress to force the creditor to accept. I choose to pay all my bills, extinguishing debt rather than discharging it, and owning what I own under Law rather than relying upon equity.

6) Treasury only demands an excise tax on paper dollars. I prefer to think a Man is worthy of his hire and not paid 50% less after withholding.

7) Does Deere still have breakfast an 9 a.m.?

dys
21st November 2011, 10:29 AM
It occured to me recently that just about all politicians are mass murderers. Consider.

dys