Freeking hospital bill for non service......

[Ponce]

Remember when I hurst my hand back in July?....well, that was in July 1 when I was sent to this civilian hospita by the VA for an amergency operation and I have never been back there again...but now they are trying to give me a bill for "therapy" starting July 6 which never was.......ten sessions for $150.00 per, the theraphy that I did recieved was at the VA where it was for free and which began in June 7.

I am going to ignored this bill and when they send the bill collector after me I will then take them to court, I wonder to how many insurance companies they have done this to........and how many did pay.

[Dogman]

Most , do, that is why health ins, is so dam high. They pack the bill sent with tons of services and stuff ,you never used. They say it is to help pay for the uninsured that show up at the emergency rooms. But I truly wonder.

In my neck of the woods, every hospital in this area have been going balls to the walls building and expanding for at least the last 20 years and more.

Where are they getting the money from?

It is a racket. pure and simple.

[Joe King]

If you didn't get the service being billed for, dispute it now. Do not wait. Silence is acceptence in such a matter.

[chad]

here's my hernia surgery bill:

iv solutions: $86

med-sur supplies: $1,191

sterile supplies: $1,275.25

or services: $4,042

anesthesia: $993

pharmacy: $935.64

recovery room: $631

pro fee: $1,439.90

total: $10,593.79

i understand most of it, but i have no idea what a "pro fee" is. maybe mamboni was in the room ;D

[Canadian-guerilla]

get a calendar and mark all the therapy dates on it
and then try to remember where you were on those dates ( reciepts ? )

make sure you have ALL neccesary paperwork

courts love paperwork as evidence

[Serpo]

Hang on I know what a "pro fee'' is.................oh hang on , forget it......

[Dogman]

here's my hernia surgery bill:

iv solutions: $86

med-sur supplies: $1,191

sterile supplies: $1,275.25

or services: $4,042

anesthesia: $993

pharmacy: $935.64

recovery room: $631

pro fee: $1,439.90

total: $10,593.79

i understand most of it, but i have no idea what a "pro fee" is. maybe mamboni was in the room ;D

Wait a few months , I guarantee you will start getting bills from people and for services you never heard of.
It is too soon yet , but even money you sure will.

[Cebu_4_2]

Dispute it now.

Nothing more to be said.

[Ponce]

I do have a valid bill that was my share the the inurance company did not pay for $275.00......I told them that I doule only afford to pay $5.00 per month and included my first payment...if they cash the check to me that means that it is ok with them, only 54 more payments to go hahahahahahahahah.......I read this long ago in this forum....when you make some kind of payment there is nothing that they can do.

[palani]

Don't dispute it. Send them a conditional offer to pay the bill provided they can verify that you were provided this service. Arguing is dishonorable. Silence is acceptance.

That is why it helps to include "without prejudice UCC1-308" by your signature should you sign anything. A naked signature takes the matter out of the statute of fraud. If you provided this limitation you could ask for a document where you authorized the treatment.

[Cebu_4_2]

Palini, while I agree mostly with mjuch yoju post, it is a hard thing to cover if yoju are not fjully versed with the knowledge that yoju have aqjuired.

[mamboni]

here's my hernia surgery bill:

iv solutions: $86

med-sur supplies: $1,191

sterile supplies: $1,275.25

or services: $4,042

anesthesia: $993

pharmacy: $935.64

recovery room: $631

pro fee: $1,439.90

total: $10,593.79

i understand most of it, but i have no idea what a "pro fee" is. maybe mamboni was in the room ;D

Pro fee is the surgeon's fee, the "professional component."

I must be getting used to the price inflation, because $10,000 doesn't seem that absurdly expensive for what is a fairly involved and complicated surgery - if you want it done right. If you had serious mal practice reform, a third of the bil could be trimmed. Then, is there was some deregulation of safety procedures and supplies procurement another 20% could be saved.

The surgeon's fee may sound high to some: i.e. $1400 for a 1-2 hour surgery. Please factor in the following: this fee includes pre- and post-operative visits and followup. Consider the years of training and experience required to produce a surgeon capable of performing this procedure with predictable and reliable results. And, consider that a worthless thieving parasite like Jamie Dimon earns this much money in about 1 minute. Which of the two represents the superior value service: the surgeon's or Dimon's?

[palani]

Palini, while I agree mostly with mjuch yoju post, it is a hard thing to cover if yoju are not fjully versed with the knowledge that yoju have aqjuired.

I agree. But then the approach I suggest is biblical. You are told to agree with your opponent or he will haul you into court. Agreeing doesn't mean you pay bills that you should not. Agreeing means you shoot them a counter offer.... or else he will haul you into court and eat your lunch to boot.

[Joe King]

I agree. But then the approach I suggest is biblical. You are told to agree with your opponent or he will haul you into court. Agreeing doesn't mean you pay bills that you should not. Agreeing means you shoot them a counter offer.... or else he will haul you into court and eat your lunch to boot.What you're suggesting is to agree based upon a condition. ie if you can prove I was there and received treatment, I will only then pay.

Which is actually disputing it, as you would only ask for proof of services rendered if you dispute the charges. If you agree with the charges, you do what's being asked of you. ie remit the amount due.

[palani]

What you're suggesting is to agree based upon a condition. ie if you can prove I was there and received treatment, I will only then pay.

Which is actually disputing it, as you would only ask for proof of services rendered if you dispute the charges. If you agree with the charges, you do what's being asked of you. ie remit the amount due.

I can see you know little of contract negotiations. If you accept an offer you do so unconditionally. If you throw in conditions you have submitted another offer. Your offer has the effect of cancelling the previous offer that was on the table.

Knowing what we know here on this forum a condition might be "I will agree to pay this bill if you can show that the debt will be extinguished by my payment". You do not extinguish a debt with a debt instrument. If I owe you $5,000 and decide to pay you with an IOU I have not extinguished the debt. Instead I have discharged it for a time. A FRN or anything available for payment short of gold or silver does not extinguish the debt.

Another counteroffer is to ask them if they will take $1 in silver to discharge the debt. Try that one. They might nibble. If they don't nibble the debt is mute until they put another offer on the table. By agreeing to pay you effectively HAVE paid.

[chad]

excuse my profanity, but my surgeon from mayo has been FUCKING AWESOME. wants follow ups every 30 days for a year (no charge). i've only now at 6 weeks coming out of it, but i don't think 10k for something that has allowed me to live life again is that bad.

[Dogman]

excuse my profanity, but my surgeon from mayo has been FUCKING AWESOME. wants follow ups every 30 days for a year (no charge). i've only now at 6 weeks coming out of it, but i don't think 10k for something that has allowed me to live life again is that bad.


Yep, If you are happy and end up healthy, that is truly "Priceless"!

[Joe King]

I can see you know little of contract negotiations. If you accept an offer you do so unconditionally. If you throw in conditions you have submitted another offer. Your offer has the effect of cancelling the previous offer that was on the table.If they can show you were there, their offer will still stand and yours will be out the window.
Besides, you said, Agreeing means you shoot them a counter offer..... So if you agree with them, you're saying their offer is valid.
To ask for proof of you being there is to dispute their version of events.




Knowing what we know here on this forum a condition might be "I will agree to pay this bill if you can show that the debt will be extinguished by my payment". You do not extinguish a debt with a debt instrument. If I owe you $5,000 and decide to pay you with an IOU I have not extinguished the debt. Instead I have discharged it for a time. A FRN or anything available for payment short of gold or silver does not extinguish the debt.

Another counteroffer is to ask them if they will take $1 in silver to discharge the debt. Try that one. They might nibble. If they don't nibble the debt is mute until they put another offer on the table. By agreeing to pay you effectively HAVE paid.What if in the papers you sign to get treatment, you've agreed to discharge the debt with dollars?

ETA: also, remember that we're talkin' about Ponces bill here, not yours. ie I doubt he signed anything UCC 1-308 and he is known to have a SS# and as such is fully immersed in the system. So what you're talking about wouldn't really do anything for him other than cause him a lot of headaches.
What he needs to do is to dispute the charges and ask them to prove he got treatment as charged.

[palani]

To ask for proof of you being there is to dispute their version of events.
Get this through your head. There are NO facts. Facts belong in Law. You are in Equity, a highly colorable jurisdiction. You have no way to extinguish a bill. If in doubt about this ASK THEM!!!


What if in the papers you sign to get treatment, you've agreed to discharge the debt with dollars? A naked signature takes the matter out of the statute of fraud. You are still working with Equity and not Law.


ETA: also, remember that we're talkin' about Ponces bill here, not yours. ie I doubt he signed anything UCC 1-308 and he is known to have a SS# and as such is fully immersed in the system. So what you're talking about wouldn't really do anything for him other than cause him a lot of headaches. You ever play chess?


What he needs to do is to dispute the charges and ask them to prove he got treatment as charged. Behavior what is rewarded or punished. Dishonor is behavior that is punishable. Honor is rewarded.

How did you ever get to where you are without learning this?

[po boy]

Get this through your head. There are NO facts. ?
Sorry that is absolute crap.

If palani is charged with murder he's going to honor the DA by agreeing with his adversary then when sentenced try to renegotiate the prison sentence.

I enjoy some of what you post but you've been listening to creditors in commerce too much.

If your all about biblical laws you wouldn't be advocating operating in COMMERCE.

[Joe King]

Get this through your head. There are NO facts. Facts belong in Law. You are in Equity, a highly colorable jurisdiction. You have no way to extinguish a bill. If in doubt about this ASK THEM!!!

A naked signature takes the matter out of the statute of fraud. You are still working with Equity and not Law.

You ever play chess?

Behavior what is rewarded or punished. Dishonor is behavior that is punishable. Honor is rewarded.

How did you ever get to where you are without learning this?Again, this is apples and oranges. ie this is about Ponces bill for services he never received.

You're arguement isn't going to help Ponce. If you want to discuss the topic you're discussing, start a new thread.

[Ponce]

Palani? I NEVER signed any kind of paper work with the hospital, even one for the Dr to operate in my hand.....everytime that they presented with a paper to sign I told them....."The VA send me here therefore the VA should get the bill, called them right away"......I never gave them any information about myself and all that they had from the VA was my name and nothing else...........however, next thing that you know they billed MY INSURANCE COMPANY and for doing that they only got half the payment instead of getting the full amount and then they mailed me a bill......the $275 is my deductable........the other bill for "therapy" is apart.

Interesting that they got the name of my isurance company, my home address, my social security number and as to how many rolls of tp I had at hand, with only my name.............I HATE COMPUTERS.

[Joe King]

The VA gave them your info.

[palani]

Sorry that is absolute crap.
If you ALLOW facts to enter the record then you may have them to contend with. If you are talking a courtroom situation where you are the defendant you have ultimate control over what facts ENTER the record.


If palani is charged with murder he's going to honor the DA by agreeing with his adversary then when sentenced try to renegotiate the prison sentence. If palani is FALSELY charged with murder he plans on pleading guilty to the facts but not the controversy. If there have been no facts previously entered there can be none after this plea. On appeal (the REAL trial) what FACTS do the judges have to work with? What is their only option?


I enjoy some of what you post but you've been listening to creditors in commerce too much. I haven't seen their site in a couple of years. Do they have some new material?


If your all about biblical laws you wouldn't be advocating operating in COMMERCE.
That is a stumper. You might show me where I have ever ADVOCATED operating in commerce. It seems commerce is unavoidable so I must know how to deal with it. Do YOU avoid commerce? If so, how?

[palani]

Palani? I NEVER signed any kind of paper work with the hospital, even one for the Dr to operate in my hand.....everytime that they presented with a paper to sign I told them....."The VA send me here therefore the VA should get the bill, called them right away"......I never gave them any information about myself and all that they had from the VA was my name and nothing else...........however, next thing that you know they billed MY INSURANCE COMPANY and for doing that they only got half the payment instead of getting the full amount and then they mailed me a bill......the $275 is my deductable........the other bill for "therapy" is apart.

Interesting that they got the name of my isurance company, my home address, my social security number and as to how many rolls of tp I had at hand, with only my name.............I HATE COMPUTERS.

Yup. Hospitals have a better system to track the financials than the policymen do. Doctors take oaths so MUST take care of you if you are in need. They insulate themselves with business managers though and these guys don't have oaths. You have to wade through the business managers to get to the doctor.

With no signature the statute of fraud is in play but only limits above a grand (might be different in your state). So a good counterclaim is to ask for any document that you might have signed while there authorizing the payment (knowing there is none).

[po boy]

If you could cite some court cases where this theory works I'd bet all would love to see.

[palani]

If you could cite some court cases where this theory works I'd bet all would love to see.
A fundamental belief I hold is that court cases are 1) selectively reported and 2) apply only to the parties involved and 3) are not reported in English preferring to instead use the language of Legalise.

[Dogman]

If you could cite some court cases where this theory works I'd bet all would love to see.


A fundamental belief I hold is that court cases are 1) selectively reported and 2) apply only to the parties involved and 3) are not reported in English preferring to instead use the language of Legalise.

Translation = I Can't! They do not exist!

[Joe King]

If palani is FALSELY charged with murder he plans on pleading guilty to the facts but not the controversy. If there have been no facts previously entered there can be none after this plea. On appeal (the REAL trial) what FACTS do the judges have to work with? What is their only option?


Are you actually saying that if you were charged with a murder you didn't commit, that you'd plead guilty in order to take it up on appeal?
For you to be charged in the first place, there must be some type of evidence against you. If you fail to answer those charges, you will be found guilty.
It is a thousand times easier to avoid being found guilty than it is to win on appeal after having been found guilty.
Attended many murder trials?

[palani]

Translation = I Can't! They do not exist!

Not the whole truth. If they are not REPORTED they cannot be FOUND.

[palani]

Are you actually saying that if you were charged with a murder you didn't commit, that you'd plead guilty in order to take it up on appeal? Pleading guilty to the FACTS when there are not any FACTS entered on the record? You know, you are found guilty during a trial because you ARGUE (an act of dishonor) all the time. Learn to be more agreeable.


For you to be charged in the first place, there must be some type of evidence against you. No. There is only OPINION.


If you fail to answer those charges, you will be found guilty. Agree with your opponent. Plead guilty (of the facts) yourself but NOT the controversy (the Law). This under common law is called NON-ASSUMPSIT BY WAY OF CONFESSION AND AVOIDANCE. But they no longer admit this plea so you have to go with what you got. All it says is ... Facts are Facts, so what, Law permitted me to do whatever I did (or did not).


It is a thousand times easier to avoid being found guilty than it is to win on appeal after having been found guilty. If you hire a lawyer you lose all natural rights. If you take a public defender the matter is even worse. He is there to make sure your rights are protected and not to get you off. Read this as follows: the public defender is to make sure you have no BASIS for an appeal.


Attended many murder trials? I was an alternate juror on one years back. I wasn't needed so didn't get to sit in on the deliberations. The son of a rich local man made it appear as if two girls were fighting over him, that one had killed the other and then had committed suicide. All this for $10k in insurance premium. This guy was WELL represented by attorneys.

[po boy]

There would be the fact that you've been charged, the fact that if you agree with your adversary you will see a cell.

[palani]

There would be the fact that you've been charged, the fact that if you agree with your adversary you will see a cell. A temporary condition until the appeal goes through.

Getting railroaded by false evidence judged by a jury of incompetents is even less sure as to the outcome.

[Joe King]

Pleading guilty to the FACTS when there are not any FACTS entered on the record? You know, you are found guilty during a trial because you ARGUE (an act of dishonor) all the time. Learn to be more agreeable.

No. There is only OPINION.And you'll be found guilty via that opinion if you agree with the charges.



Agree with your opponent. Plead guilty (of the facts) yourself but NOT the controversy (the Law). This under common law is called NON-ASSUMPSIT BY WAY OF CONFESSION AND AVOIDANCE. But they no longer admit this plea so you have to go with what you got. All it says is ... Facts are Facts, so what, Law permitted me to do whatever I did (or did not).You'd get a lot better milage by not agreeing and simply proving that you weren't at the location of the murder at the time it happened.




If you hire a lawyer you lose all natural rights. If you take a public defender the matter is even worse. He is there to make sure your rights are protected and not to get you off. Read this as follows: the public defender is to make sure you have no BASIS for an appeal.

I was an alternate juror on one years back. I wasn't needed so didn't get to sit in on the deliberations. The son of a rich local man made it appear as if two girls were fighting over him, that one had killed the other and then had committed suicide. All this for $10k in insurance premium. This guy was WELL represented by attorneys.

When charges are filed and you do not dispute them, you will be found guilty and thrown in jail based upon the opinion of the witnesses and/or evidence to have charged you in the first place.
ie they do not just grab people at random in order to charge them with no pre-existing evidence that suggests they did the crime in question.
It's no different than in a Civil case if you do not show or present any evidence to dispute the allegations, you will lose.

An alternate Juror that wasn't needed? Wow. Does that make you the expert on murder trials then?

I've seen the inner workings of a capital murder investigation and trial. What's that make me?

I wouldn't say that I'm an expert on it by any means, but I did get to see stuff that most people don't get to see and I know what happens if you agree with the charges in such a case and allow the States case to be presented without disputing it. lol
...but as you said, you can still take up any errors in your trial, on appeal.

[palani]

And you'll be found guilty via that opinion if you agree with the charges.
See this is what I mean about you being irrational. I would have just PLEAD guilty (of the FACTS but not the controversy). How could I be FOUND guilty?


You'd get a lot better milage by not agreeing and simply proving that you weren't at the location of the murder at the time it happened. Not agreeing is opposed to the teachings of my religion.


When charges are filed and you do not dispute them, you will be found guilty and thrown in jail based upon the opinion of the witnesses and/or evidence to have charged you in the first place.
ie they do not just grab people at random in order to charge them with no pre-existing evidence that suggests they did the crime in question. Apparently you THINK you know how the legal system works? Do you hire an attorney or do you go in pro se (by the way, the 'lectric law library defines "pro se" as Latin for "you lose" ... isn't that just precious?)


It's no different than in a Civil case if you do not show or present any evidence to dispute the allegations, you will lose. If you appear in a civil case then you have proven your existence. Until then they might as well chase ghosts.


An alternate Juror that wasn't needed? Wow. Does that make you the expert on murder trials then? Your question was asked and an answer provided. You can make of it what you will.


I've seen the inner workings of a capital murder investigation and trial. What's that make me? Probably gullible and uninformed.


I wouldn't say that I'm an expert on it by any means, but I did get to see stuff that most people don't get to see and I know what happens if you agree with the charges in such a case and allow the States case to be presented without disputing it. lol Apparently you know a lot. Do you still hire an attorney? Attorneys only represent corporations. Bet you didn't know that.


...but as you said, you can still take up any errors in your trial, on appeal.
In Law a single judge has no power to do anything other than set bail. Trial occurs in front of 2-3 judges, one being of the quorum (i.e., has training). This ONLY occurs at appeal.

[willie pete]

...Something to consider? ...heard a story from a lady the other day, an old $700 hospital bill she owed, the hospital turned it over to a collection agency, they went to court and sued, the court issued a motion to appear which she said she never got, then a warrant was issued for failure to appear, she then got stopped for speeding, the warrant came up and she was arrested on the spot, spent 4 days in jail waiting to get bailed out.......

[Joe King]

...Something to consider? ...heard a story from a lady the other day, an old $700 hospital bill she owed, the hospital turned it over to a collection agency, they went to court and sued, the court issued a motion to appear which she said she never got, then a warrant was issued for failure to appear, she then got stopped for speeding, the warrant came up and she was arrested on the spot, spent 4 days in jail waiting to get bailed out..........but she can always take it up on Appeal and win. lol


Palani's stuff is mostly right-on if one lives in such a way as to be able to use it, but for those fully plugged-in to the system, it's another story altogether.
ie get yourself free first.

[palani]

...but she can always take it up on Appeal and win. lol You like to twist things around a bit, don't you? willie pete's story is what happens when you ignore these notices.



Palani's stuff is mostly right-on if one lives in such a way as to be able to use it, but for those fully plugged-in to the system, it's another story altogether.
ie get yourself free first.
I offer no legal advice on this board. We discuss highly implausible events here for entertainment and educational purposes only. And, yes, if you are happy with your chains then by all means wear them with pride ... you'll have earned them.

[Ponce]

The VA gave them your info.

Joe? you got it, and if they REALLY got the info from the VA hospial then why didn't they send them the bill? is the law, whe I called the VA they told me that the bill was supposed to go to them and and they they would get what ever they could from my insurance company.......remember that I wrote for them to get in contact with the VA?.........the hospital screwed themselves out of around $7,000.

[palani]

Likely the VA got the bill ok and paid 1/4 of it. They are just trying to see if you will volunteer to pay the rest.

[Joe King]

You like to twist things around a bit, don't you? willie pete's story is what happens when you ignore these notices.



I offer no legal advice on this board. We discuss highly implausible events here for entertainment and educational purposes only. And, yes, if you are happy with your chains then by all means wear them with pride ... you'll have earned them.
Well, that doesn't apply here because Ponces situation does not meet your criteria.
ie for his sake, we need to keep this discussion grounded in what is his reality.

[Ponce]

No Palani, the VA din't pay a cent.......I called today to find out what was going on and they are as confused as I am......had the bill gone to the VA I would not have to pay the $275.00 and that's why I am going to pay it slowwwwwwwwwwwwly.

[Joe King]

No Palani, the VA din't pay a cent.......I called today to find out what was going on and they are as confused as I am......had the bill gone to the VA I would not have to pay the $275.00 and that's why I am going to pay it slowwwwwwwwwwwwly.Maybe you could offer to deliver it to them?
Or, return to sender marked "Addressee wrong"?

[Glass]

palani is correct in what he says. BUT oftentimes there is more than one path to the destination. If there is obviously a mistake, usually evidenced by how ludicrous it is then the situation can get sorted out by a bit of Administrative work. Keyword - administrative.

This is what Ponce is doing. Makes sense to make some calls and hopefully it will be obvious to someone and it's sorted. So far He seems to be getting good traction.

Issue: Bills are accepted in 72 hours unless protested. Ponce's actions are protest. Not dishonour yet. Ideally you would take it to a notary to protest. Protest in writing is always better than just a verbal. Follow it up in writting perhaps. Do nothing and it's accepted.

Counter offer. On proof of your claim I will pay. Honourable. No dishonour yet. 72 hours applies.

What we do. Type up a notice of conditional acceptance on proof of claim. Make an affidavit. (religious issues here). Get UHU. Stick first page of notice to back of their bill (presentment). Bill is modified = counter offer. Return it with time frame for conforming response. non response is acceptance of counter offer. No proof of claim provided = no obligation.

To counter your counter offer, a counter-counter offer they have to modify what you sent them and send it back. Chances of that are about zero because someone is going to have to use their sign to do it. (signature). So they will print out a second one. NEW OFFER. And send it to you. Repeat upto 3 times. You could probably do some tricky 1cent stamp thing palani knows or send it so it needs sig and you get receipt of this sig.

Try it and see what happens. Do it on a low value thing. Then you can just pay it if you feel uncomfortable following through with it. I had a response which initially dismayed me but on contemplation it so far confirms nearly everything raised. It's almost better than getting no response. It appears to be from someone very high up, whom I addressed. Although I did get no response initially and sent a notice of fault. That triggered a rather remarkable response. I think it freaked the notary out. Still some steps to go.

The ideal is no response and no further correspondence or presentment of claims. I have only done one. I have another 2 which are a bit different to pursue. I can vouch for another who has had a couple of successes but is not sure the what how and why so is now recording their steps in more detail to get the best method. They have had penalties overturned and claims dropped. It has been a real fight though. They have had to put up. Got an interesting one going on now.

[Spectrism]

Here is the problem with "agreeing" to pay an unjust bill, "if they can prove" a "fact"..... people will spit on the ground and consider that proof of fact. Most people are not logical or versed in just laws. Most people will look at such a stand and say that since he agreed with the bill, there must be facts to support it.

Mat 5:25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

The context here implies that you ARE guilty and to seek a settlement with the accuser so that you won't face a stiff penalty. It does not say to agree with unjust accusations or attempt to worm around false claims by appealing to their greed or incorrect claims. If falsely accused, there is no dishonor in denying the claim and requiring proof.

[palani]

Someone originated a request for Her Royal Highness to do something. I thought the response from her secretary was quite polite and to the point and I saved a copy of the text. Here it is


Dear Xxxxxx,

Thank you for your recent correspondence to H M Treasury. However, the matter you refer
to did not originate from H M Treasury. I am returning the documents to you with confirmation
that H M Treasury will not be taking any action on them. Please note that we will not be entering into further correspondence on this issue and therefore ask that you do not send any further documentation to H M Treasury.

Regards, John Adams, Manager, Correspondence
and Enquiry Unit, H M Treasury.

Certainly has to qualify as the most polite "get stuffed" letter I have found.

[Glass]

Here is the problem with "agreeing" to pay an unjust bill, "if they can prove" a "fact"..... people will spit on the ground and consider that proof of fact. Most people are not logical or versed in just laws. Most people will look at such a stand and say that since he agreed with the bill, there must be facts to support it.

Mat 5:25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

The context here implies that you ARE guilty and to seek a settlement with the accuser so that you won't face a stiff penalty. It does not say to agree with unjust accusations or attempt to worm around false claims by appealing to their greed or incorrect claims. If falsely accused, there is no dishonor in denying the claim and requiring proof.

I don't think there is a problem there at all. People deal with situations as best they know how. If they know how one way then good for them. If they know how another way also good for them. The fact they don't know of some methods or solutions is their responsibility or in a society that cares they might have been taught the basics of commerce and how bills of exchange (invoices/infringements and such) actually work as negotiable instruments and how that is different to the way FRN's work.

[Ponce]

Hey Glass? you must be a banister......me? just a dunm Cuban refugee who only income is the SS and can afford to pay only $5.00 per month........they cannot say that I refuse to pay or that I an not paying.......the paper work for them will cost them more than the $5.00 that I send them every month.

[Spectrism]

I don't think there is a problem there at all. People deal with situations as best they know how. If they know how one way then good for them. If they know how another way also good for them. The fact they don't know of some methods or solutions is their responsibility or in a society that cares they might have been taught the basics of commerce and how bills of exchange (invoices/infringements and such) actually work as negotiable instruments and how that is different to the way FRN's work.

I don't think you understood my meaning. In dealing with bureaucracies, you are working with automotons that take a piece of paper from one box and put it into another. They will not be sympathetic to your "without prejudice" or "guilty of facts with no facts" arguments. It becomes dangerous for one to play partial cards without understanding consequences. If you are stepping outside the system, be prepared to be off employment, and totally outside the system.

[Glass]

I don't think you understood my meaning. In dealing with bureaucracies, you are working with automotons that take a piece of paper from one box and put it into another. They will not be sympathetic to your "without prejudice" or "guilty of facts with no facts" arguments. It becomes dangerous for one to play partial cards without understanding consequences. If you are stepping outside the system, be prepared to be off employment, and totally outside the system.

Yes I understand your meaning. What you are saying is that you cannot do this. That is ok. I have no issue with that. All I was pointing out was that there are multiple paths to any solution. Putting hand in pocket and fishing out FRN's is one way. Pointing out the bill is incorrectly addressed (targeted) is another way. Giving the claimant some consideration for their claim is another. FRN's are often considered consideration but what else could be consideration?

If you are lent 100 ton of manure and promise to return said manure, are you obliged to give more than the original amount of manure? Are you obliged to give something of greater value for the manure if you can't return/replace it? No you are not.

If you get a negotiable instrument (bill) are you required to give more consideration than is obliged by the bill? No. You can give equal value for equal value. If you give equal consideration you have discharged the obligation. If you get a piece of paper, what is the consideration you need to give back? A piece of paper would suffice. You might have to write something on it but it would suffice.

I also didn't say it was a walk in the park. It is a long lost knowledge that people are rediscovering BUT I can tell you it's clear to me that they or at least some of they know the deal. When the paperwork gets high enough up the food chain you will be surprised at the results. You may have to be insitent on occasion because a lot of people don't know what is going on. That's ok. Courts know the deal. You may have to convince them as well but they will accept this solution.

Hope I haven't gone too OT there Ponce. What I am talking about is what a lot of people do already without even realising it. Things like signing for credit card purchase or even package deliveries are a type of this process.

Not a lawyer, don't trust them but do use them for witnessing and such. I would avoid being represented by one personally.