andover voting to pay employees in silver coins

[Large Sarge]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2012/02/09/andover_voters_to_decide_on_silver_dollars_as_pay_ alternative_for_town_employees/

[dys]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2012/02/09/andover_voters_to_decide_on_silver_dollars_as_pay_ alternative_for_town_employees/

I live 10 minutes away from there I'll try and make it to a town meeting to see if this comes up.

dys

[Sparky]

"An employee making $1,000 a week, for instance, may choose to receive half of those wages in silver coins: The town would pay $500 in paper dollars and $500 based on the exchange rate of the silver coins, Shapiro said. Based on the January exchange rate, $500 would be the equivalent of roughly 14 silver coins. So the employee would receive $514 ($500 in paper dollars and $14 in silver coins) in wages, instead of $1,000, thereby falling to a lower tax bracket and paying less in taxes, Shapiro said."

The price spread for buying (by the town) and redemption (by the employee) makes this totally impractical, right?

[Large Sarge]

the real threat is not the IRS, etc

its that people will view silver as money.....

which of course it is, but the bankers want gold & FIAT only as money....

JMO

[mamboni]

the real threat is not the IRS, etc

its that people will view silver as money.....

which of course it is, but the bankers want gold & FIAT only as money....

JMO

Agreed...but the IRS will be the bludgeoning tool used to beat this movement down. This is not different than the guy who wante to pay his employees with GAEs and declare their salaries as the face value of the coins. Uncle IRS did not warm to the idea. LOL

[madfranks]

"An employee making $1,000 a week, for instance, may choose to receive half of those wages in silver coins: The town would pay $500 in paper dollars and $500 based on the exchange rate of the silver coins, Shapiro said. Based on the January exchange rate, $500 would be the equivalent of roughly 14 silver coins. So the employee would receive $514 ($500 in paper dollars and $14 in silver coins) in wages, instead of $1,000, thereby falling to a lower tax bracket and paying less in taxes, Shapiro said."

The price spread for buying (by the town) and redemption (by the employee) makes this totally impractical, right?

Very impractical, if one was forced to participate. However, it is optional, and while I'm sure that 99% of employees would choose to get all of their paycheck in fiat FRN, if I was one of them I'd choose 20% silver just for saving and keep the 80% FRN for living.

[DMac]

Edit: Let me rephrase this question -

How is this different than the guy in Nevada that was sentenced to 15 years?

[JohnQPublic]

Edit: Let me rephrase this question -

How is this different than the guy in Nevada that was sentenced to 15 years?

read page 2 of the article:

Page 2 of 2 --A Las Vegas construction business owner was sentenced to 15 years in federal prison in 2009 for tax fraud and evasion, which included a payroll scam in which he paid workers with silver and gold coins, allowed them to immediately trade them in for paper dollars, but only withheld taxes for the total face value of the coins, according to the IRS and several local news reports. Shapiro said his proposal is nothing like the Nevada case.

The Las Vegas business owner “was trying to defraud the government out of the money. That’s where he went wrong,’’ Shapiro said. “Tax evasion, that’s when you don’t report earnings. Tax avoidance is just like when you take a deduction on your house, you’re trying to avoid taxes, you’re trying to pay less taxes, and there’s nothing in the tax code that says that you have to arrange your income to increase how much you pay in taxes.’’

(though the explanation is not great)

[Gaillo]

Edit: Let me rephrase this question -

How is this different than the guy in Nevada that was sentenced to 15 years?

It's da Guv... the rules don't apply to them! :(

[mick silver]

your right only the gov could get away with this not joe the store owner

[DMac]

read page 2 of the article:

Page 2 of 2 --A Las Vegas construction business owner was sentenced to 15 years in federal prison in 2009 for tax fraud and evasion, which included a payroll scam in which he paid workers with silver and gold coins, allowed them to immediately trade them in for paper dollars, but only withheld taxes for the total face value of the coins, according to the IRS and several local news reports. Shapiro said his proposal is nothing like the Nevada case.

The Las Vegas business owner “was trying to defraud the government out of the money. That’s where he went wrong,’’ Shapiro said. “Tax evasion, that’s when you don’t report earnings. Tax avoidance is just like when you take a deduction on your house, you’re trying to avoid taxes, you’re trying to pay less taxes, and there’s nothing in the tax code that says that you have to arrange your income to increase how much you pay in taxes.’’

(though the explanation is not great)

Yeah, I didn't find that explanation satisfactory.

[big country]

Edit: Let me rephrase this question -

How is this different than the guy in Nevada that was sentenced to 15 years?

From my understanding the guy in NV didn't actually pay them in GAEs. He "sorta" paid them in GAEs.
He "paid" (to the IRS) them in face value with the GAEs, but immediately redeemed the GAEs for cash and paid the employees with the cash instead. It is my understanding that the employees didn't ever recieve the GAEs, but I suppose I could be wrong...I may have read the MSM version of the story???

If the employees were allowed/did take them home and cashed them in on their own at their own private coin dealer I think it would have been a much stonger case.

[DMac]

That makes a little more sense then, BC. Thanks

[madfranks]

From my understanding the guy in NV didn't actually pay them in GAEs. He "sorta" paid them in GAEs.
He "paid" (to the IRS) them in face value with the GAEs, but immediately redeemed the GAEs for cash and paid the employees with the cash instead. It is my understanding that the employees didn't ever recieve the GAEs, but I suppose I could be wrong...I may have read the MSM version of the story

If the employees were allowed/did take them home and cashed them in on their own at their own private coin dealer I think it would have been a much stonger case.

Your facts are right, but it's still no different than what the city if proposing. Other than the time period of employee ownership of the coins, it's exactly the same. So if you pay your employees in silver and they immediately sell that silver for FRNs, that's tax fraud, but if you pay your employees in silver and they wait, how long, 8 hours, 24 hours, before they sell the silver for FRNs, that's simply tax avoidance and is ok?

[Sparky]

Your facts are right, but it's still no different than what the city if proposing. Other than the time period of employee ownership of the coins, it's exactly the same. So if you pay your employees in silver and they immediately sell that silver for FRNs, that's tax fraud, but if you pay your employees in silver and they wait, how long, 8 hours, 24 hours, before they sell the silver for FRNs, that's simply tax avoidance and is ok?

What about this: I'm presuming these payments are documented. Each time an employee converts a GAE to FRN to purchase something, does it trigger a realized capital gain (loss) event for Federal tax purposes? What would be considered the cost basis?

[Large Sarge]

for the record, I have always said Silver and the internet are the zio criminals only 2 real weaknesses I am aware of (there maybe some exotic supressed technology I am unaware of that would fit the bill also).

Gold is a not as big a factor from my own observations, the rothschilds have owned that market for centuries.

Silver and the internet are the true wild cards....

[big country]

Your facts are right, but it's still no different than what the city if proposing. Other than the time period of employee ownership of the coins, it's exactly the same. So if you pay your employees in silver and they immediately sell that silver for FRNs, that's tax fraud, but if you pay your employees in silver and they wait, how long, 8 hours, 24 hours, before they sell the silver for FRNs, that's simply tax avoidance and is ok?

I think the real difference is who does the "cashing out" if the business that paid you in the gold/silver redeems them for cash then I see there being a tax avoidance issue. If the employee is free to take them and "cash out" in the private market then I see it as fair compensation. That way the business doesn't have a vested interest in the employee immediately converting to cash with them. Obviously what the man in NV did was tax avoidance (Do not confuse this as me being against avoiding taxes if possible) - The employees never saw the GAEs!

In my opinion it all boils down to how/who-to the coins are redeemed for cash. Im no lawyer though...