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Twisted Titan
13th March 2012, 05:59 PM
After the Shooting, by Tupreco (http://survivalblog.com/2012/03/after-the-shooting-by-tupreco.html)

After the Shooting, by Tupreco - SurvivalBlog.com (http://survivalblog.com/2012/03/after-the-shooting-by-tupreco.html)



Your bedside clock says 3:40 a.m. You have just awakened to a sound like breaking glass. You pick up the phone to call 911 but the line is dead. It’s dark in the house and you ease out of bed to retrieve your handgun from the closet safe just as you have practiced dozens of times. You wait inside your bedroom door with your ear straining to hear. Someone is down the hall sliding something on the tile. At that instant, the 30-second delay on your security system expires and the alarm begins to peal. Another crash in the living room and you are now standing in the hall - gun drawn. A person you have never seen before senses your presence and turns toward you while reaching for his belt. He is close and coming toward you and has ignored your command to stop. You don’t specifically remember firing but he goes down after two hollow points catch him in the chest. The knife he was reaching for drops to the floor next to him as he falls. Time seems to stand still. Your cell phone rings and you jump – your security company is on the line about the alarm trip. You tell them to call the police. You hang up and call 911 and check his vitals – no pulse or breathing. Now what?


You just shot an armed intruder in self-defense. You have also just stepped into the middle of a legal minefield. This instance is a clear case of self-defense. Will it be seen that way? The widely-held belief that you are innocent until proven guilty cannot be presumed. The new world you have just entered is far from ideal and the burden of proving your innocence will be on you. What happens next? You will be anxious to talk to the first responders who just arrived, probably police and paramedics. You will also have to overcome an overwhelming and immediate desire to begin justifying your actions to anyone who will listen to you. But for now, saying as little as possible will be the best decision of your life. However, you will only restrain yourself if you know why it is so critical. And you know this because it is one of the key parts of your overall preparedness strategy.


And So It Begins…
Who among us hasn’t considered the likelihood that we may be called upon use lethal force in self-defense or to protect innocent life? We pray it never happens but if we are prepared to shoot someone, however justified, then we must be equally prepared to deal with the consequences. I am constantly trying to improve the resources and skills I need to protect my family just like you. Yet a critical part of that preparation includes knowing what will happen and what to do after you shoot. Do you have a clue about the unbelievable complexities that will occur after using deadly force? Do you know what resources exist to help you deal with them? If not, then this article is your wake-up call. It is time to act – now - so that you will be ready in such a situation.



Enter “the system”
I am not a lawyer. I am not a law enforcement officer. But I do have a some key friends in law enforcement and in state and federal courts. Realize that what is written here is not to be construed as legal advice in any way. It is an exhortation to do your homework, make a plan, and assemble a small team – a lawyer and a few key friends – who agree to be available at a moment’s notice as you will be for them.



The daily world my friends inhabit is a legal procedural system that is designed to establish whether a crime was committed and to identify possible suspects with all haste and diligence. These are the people who just showed up at your home in response to your frantic call. And there you stand with a gun and a body at your feet. The police are amazing at empathizing while getting the info from you that they know you are dying to unburden yourself with. All of this will happen before your attorney arrives. Getting as much information from you as soon as possible is their goal and it is a certainty that what you say will be used against you if needed. Talking without counsel will almost invariably hurt you. Even if the shoot is clearly justified, they will still be trying to get all the details from you. They will tell you they are trying to help and need your cooperation in order to clear you. But helping you is not their priority. That’s your lawyer’s job. What are they trying to do? They are gathering information to feed to the system. Realize that your innocence is just one of many outcomes available once the information is gathered and analyzed. The legal system is judged successful when cases are closed and convictions are handed down. That’s their true goal – it’s not to help you get cleared of wrongdoing. They don’t work to answer to you. They may be sympathetic but their job is to feed the system as it is currently designed. Justice may be the stated goal in broad terms but closing the case is the real objective. Getting you justice is your lawyer’s job. Are you getting the idea?



Do Your Research and Plan Ahead
There is good news though. Numerous good books and resources are available to help you and several are listed at the end of this article. My goal is to raise your awareness of this issue to a level where you realize you need to act today. Without a plan you will be at the mercy of events out of your control.
Start by thinking about how all of your past and present decisions and life choices will appear in the harsh light of the legal investigation you may face tomorrow. Which choices? All of them. You will be amazed as I was about the dozens of things you do innocently every day that will be portrayed negatively by an unsympathetic legal system. How your friends and neighbors describe what you say and do will get put on display. Will your personality and the gun-related details of your life make you look like Joe Regular Citizen or a crazed vigilante in the hands of skilled prosecutor? Don’t think it can happen? It’s all about the spin. Here are a few examples:


“You own an excessive number of guns and shoot frequently Mr. Smith…looks like you finally got your chance to use one.”


“Your honor, the bumper stickers and rifle rack on Mr. Smith’s truck demonstrate a strong mistrust of government and establish a vigilante mindset.”


“The range master at your gun club has testified that you always use representations of people as targets instead of a simple bullseye Mr. Smith. I think the jury would like to know why?”

“So you have testified that the man you shot was someone who was known to you and in fact owed you money. Can you explain why he was in your house that afternoon?”



These examples demonstrate how quickly any simple innocent act can be spun negatively and strung together to make you look like the criminal and portray the person who broke into your house and attacked you as the victim. The recommended books and links will be great resources to open your eyes. Use them and start today to assemble a plan. You will want to assemble a small team who can mutually agree to be available should the need arise. Meanwhile, here are some things to get you started.



Key Areas to Consider
When is lethal force legally justified? Case law justifying lethal force throughout the U.S. is generally consistent and of necessity is severely limited. The only time lethal force is justified is when someone reasonably believes that their life or the life of someone else is in immediate jeopardy. The justification only exists while the threat is present (or perceived to be present). In the opening scenario, you pointed your gun at a knife-wielding attacker who was ignoring your commands to stop. But the moment he drops the knife or turns and retreats does he cease to be an immediate threat? If a reasonable man would conclude yes, then the justification for lethal force ceases as well. Someone stealing your stuff? Nope. Breaking into your house? Not unless you truly believed (and can justify by the circumstances over and over later) that you believed your life was in danger.



“I did everything in my power!” You will be asked what you did to address the threat prior to shooting. In escalating order these things include fleeing, a verbal command, physical restraint, use of pepper spray or some other object, and finally your firearm. If any of these things are available you will be asked why you did not or could not use them before resorting to lethal force.



“I was in fear for my life!” There are many ways to express this but the reality is that you must genuinely believe that you were in fear for your life or that of another and saw no other way of escape before you will be cleared for using lethal force. Repeat it early and often. Expressions of remorse are normal and can be helpful or may be construed as guilt. That is why you should say very little and insist on speaking to your lawyer before making a statement or agreeing to be questioned.




“I had no choice but to shoot!” If the attacker continues to advance and can't be deterred any other way, the last resort may be to fire your weapon. Self-defense doctrine suggests you should keep firing until the threat ceases. Next, any secondary threats (such as an accomplice) should be dealt with. Once the threat ceases then contact the authorities as quickly as possible, usually via 911.




What you will do after the shooting is over? You will now be in a highly agitated state and are capable (likely) to do and say things you will regret later. These are normal tendencies but with some forethought and planning, the damage to you can be minimized. If you do not call 911 right away it will go poorly for you. This is the conventional wisdom and it makes some sense. Calling quickly and rendering aid will support the fact that you are the victim here and did not want to kill anyone. Say as little as possible because EVERYTHING you say from here on out will be used against you if it can be. The minimum suggested is something like. “This is John Smith of 123 Main Street. I was just attacked in my home and was afraid for my life. Please send an ambulance because someone has been shot.”



After calling 911
After you call 911, you lose control of events almost immediately. For starters, the phone you just used to call 911 on is usually 'locked' so you cannot make any other calls on it. Calling your lawyer or a support team member as soon as possible is advisable (on another phone) and say little except that you want to help and will make a statement after speaking to your lawyer. If your lawyer is not available, call a prearranged friend (you have a team, right?). Have them make all necessary calls for you (lawyer, family, pastor, etc.) as you may be unable to do so. They will be questioned later about why they got a call from you so quickly so their response needs to be solid as well.



Then the police will arrive and they won't know who the good guy is. Their first priority is officer safety followed by bystander safety, securing the scene, and then determining what just happened. Make sure they know it's you that called. Having a just-fired gun in your hand is not the best way to greet them. Make sure your weapon is secured and safe. It will be confiscated by law enforcement immediately and this is routine. Your hands may be bagged to preserve evidence of gunshot residue (GSR). Permission to search the rest of your house will be requested (or may just be done if there are exigent circumstances). The stated explanation will be to secure everyone's safety but equally important will be to examine what role you played in the events. Avoid this if you can. Hopefully your other firearms are locked up and secure and not all in one place should the decision be made to confiscate them. Do not appear to be a threat in any way.



Stop Talking!
When they start pressing you with questions, it will get tricky. There is surprisingly little consensus on what or how much to say. The rule here is “Less is better”. I should point out that an officer involved in a shooting is presumed innocent pending an inquiry and is treated very differently than a citizen. He is given representation immediately and is not required to say anything until the rep or lawyer can meet with them and they have a chance to calm down. They are usually placed on paid administrative leave for several weeks. You and I will have to try to go to work in the morning. Yet if we try to take the same approach by wanting to confer with counsel before giving a statement, it is presumed we are trying to hide something. Doesn’t seem fair but it is true. The standards are very different. I believe by now you are getting the idea.




Some expert suggestions
Massad Ayoob, noted expert in the self-defense use of firearms suggests that people memorize these five steps and use them immediately and nothing more.

“This person attacked me.” – establishes you are the victim.
“I will sign a complaint.” – further confirmation you are the victim
Point out evidence that supports you before it disappears.
Point out witnesses before they disappear.
“Officer, you will have my full cooperation after I have spoken with my attorney.”
His further suggestion is request medical attention for yourself as you may be unknowingly injured, in shock, or something similar. It will also get time for you to regroup your thoughts to avoid saying incriminating or conflicting things.
Alan Korwin is a widely-read 2nd Amendment rights author from Phoenix. Here are his new Safety Rules for Self Defense from his book After You Shoot (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1889632260/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=survivalcom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1889632260)http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=survivalcom-20&l=as2&o=1&a=1889632260

If you shoot in self defense you must then defend yourself against execution for murder
When you drop the hammer plan to cash in your life savings for your lawyer’s retainer. Avoid this unless your life depends on it.
Sometimes the innocent get decent treatment and sometimes they don’t
It’s always better to avoid a gunfight than to win one.
If innocent life doesn’t depend on it, don’t shoot. And if it does, don’t miss.
Expect unbelievable levels of scrutiny
Every decision you have made in your life up to this point will come into question at some point. You will have to justify the pertinent ones....Here are a few ways you will be challenged for starters:
1. Why did you shoot? Why did you feel threatened?
2. What did you do/say prior to shooting that could have prevented this?
3. Why that choice of pistol...shotgun...type of ammo?
4. How long or why did you wait to call 911?
5. Who else have you contacted? Why?
6. Did you know the victim? (Notice that now he is the victim and not you?)
Remember that the job of the police and prosecutor is to get you to tell them as much as they can get from you before your lawyer arrives. By the way, the time to establish a relationship with an attorney is before all this happens as part of your team. Don’t ask for an attorney - you must request to speak with YOUR attorney. Make sure you have one. Korwin’s After You Shoot has some great suggestions about how to put a team together.




Self-Defense Resources
Books
In the Gravest Extreme (http://www.amazon.com/Gravest-Extreme-Firearm-Personal-Protection/dp/0936279001) by Massad Ayoob
Self Defense Laws of All 50 States (http://firearmslaw.com/) by Mitch Vilos
After You Shoot (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1889632260/ref=as_li_tf_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=survivalcom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1889632260)http://www.assoc-amazon.com/e/ir?t=survivalcom-20&l=as2&o=1&a=1889632260 by Alan Korwin
Videos
“Don’t Talk to the Police” (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865) video - Professor James Duane
“Don’t Talk to the Police – a Police Officer Responds” (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6014022229458915912) video -Virginia Beach Officer George Bruch
Web Sites
US Concealed Carry Association (https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/) Supports ways to be a responsible CCW holder
GunLaws.com (http://www.gunlaws.com/) Web site of firearms author Alan Korwin
FirearmsLaws.com (http://firearmslaw.com/) Web site of attorney and author Mitch Vilos
Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network (http://www.survivalblog.com/armedcitizensnetwork.org) An education and legal defense organization
Massad Ayoob Group (http://massadayoobgroup.com/) - Training and education on personal protection and self defense



My Simple Plan
Our Plan is very simple so it is also easy to remember. I am fortunate that I know a lawyer who is also a prepper, a sport shooter, and a friend. Two like-minded friends have agreed to be the team and we do this for each other. If any of us is involved in a self-defense shoot, we place what we call a Tiger Call to as many of the others as we can reach. We all have a second small disposable cell phone for this purpose. I carry both phones at all times. If one of us were to be involved in an incident these are the steps we have agreed to once the incident is contained and both 911 and the authorities alerted. The plan goes into effect when the Tiger Call is made.




Phase 1 - Immediate actions

Call the lawyer immediately. Our code phrase within the group is “This is a Tiger Call on behalf of Joe Smith.” If unable to reach the lawyer, someone goes to his office or house as appropriate. Our lawyer has also given us a backup lawyer if he is unavailable or if he is the one involved in the shoot.
Contact all other team members. Decide who will coordinate.
Meet near the scene and attempt to observe and video events.
Do not interfere or identify your presence and do not attempt to contact Joe
Phase 2 – Follow-up

Contact pre-planned individuals so rides, child care, bail, moral support, etc. is available.
Contact employers as planned to arrange for time-off without arousing alarm.
Consolidate all notes and observations in writing. Sign, date, and photocopy them. Make duplicate copies of all recordings. These will all be given to the lawyer.
Joe will contact the Tiger group as soon as possible.
Phase 3 – Family support

The family will be in disarray and will need immediate support. Call secondary support friends and implement help as needed.
The Coordinator will facilitate assistance and keep tabs for coordinating follow-up.
An occasional drill can be very helpful. Our first practice run helped us realize that we needed small kit like a B.O.B. just for Tiger Calls. Mine has bottled water, snacks, pencils, paper, mini binocs, and a cheapie video cam.




Now You Have Your Wakeup Call
A TEOTWAWAWKI scenario may not come in a broad encompassing sweep or last indefinitely. To the victims of the recent localized tornados it was more like the end of my world – a sort of personal micro-burst if you will. If you use lethal force without being suitably prepared you will experience a SHTF (http://www.survivalblog.com/glossary.html#) event all your own.




The thugs who show up to steal, kill, and destroy give neither warning nor thought to their actions apart from what they can score from you. However, the aftermath of a self-defense shooting will be life-changing for you. We all think about how to best prepare for numerous possible scenarios yet will completely overlook this area. I avoided this for years for the same reason I avoided preparing a will. I didn’t have the experience to know where to begin. It’s uncomfortable to think about dying. It’s equally uncomfortable to think about what to do if you shoot someone. Being responsible means doing your research and making a plan. So now I have both the will and plan for after a shooting. Do your research and make your plan. And by God’s grace you will never need to use it.

BabushkaLady
13th March 2012, 06:31 PM
Pretty good read. Quite a bit to think about.

One weird part of the scene: Who would keep a gun for protection locked in a safe?

Heimdhal
13th March 2012, 06:55 PM
Remember too that this varies state to state.

Florida became the benchmark for use of leathal force when the "Stand Your Ground/Affirmative Self Defense" law was passed some years ago. A lot of other states started to pass it after that and its a good thing.

It really went a long way into the state finaly recognizing the individuals right to self defense, and we were pretty good even before that. Here, there is no longer a "duty to retreat" if you are some where you have a right to be and as long as a "reasonable person would be in fear of great bodily harm and/or death" leathal force may be used.

Twisted Titan
13th March 2012, 07:20 PM
Pretty good read. Quite a bit to think about.

One weird part of the scene: Who would keep a gun for protection locked in a safe?

The Law abiding Citizen has this drilled in their head so the can loose precious seconds or any advantage that can mean the difference between defending their Family or going to the Medical Examiner to ID the remains. Either way The State will remain whole as they will dole out The Jusitice so it makes no difference on their Part.


Did you know that Officers are trained to do the exact Opposite of what it tells cilvillian to do??

If they are attacked by a criminial THEY ARE TAUGHT NOT TO COOPERATE BUT TO RESIST AS BEST THEY CAN AND KEEP FIGHTING NO MATTER THE ODDS.

Dwell on that for a moment..... No Cop is taught to submit but you are

Ares
13th March 2012, 07:24 PM
Looks like I'm "OK" to stand my ground in my state, even to police who act "unlawfully"

Indiana

Ind. Code Section 35-41-3-2 (b) A person: (1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and (2) does not have a duty to retreat; if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling...[20]
[edit] Kentucky

Kentucky Revised Statute 503.080: Protection of property.

(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent:

(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, in a dwelling, building or upon real property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts; or
(b) Theft, criminal mischief, or any trespassory taking of tangible, movable property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts.

(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that the person against whom such force is used is:

(a) Attempting to dispossess him of his dwelling otherwise than under a claim of right to its possession; or
(b) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, of such dwelling; or
(c) Committing or attempting to commit arson of a dwelling or other building in his possession.

(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

SB1 -

Last night, the Indiana General Assembly passed Senate Bill 1, which, once signed into law, will resolve a nearly year-long deprivation of the civil rights of residents of the State of Indiana. Readers who have followed me for the last year will be aware of my previous “Outrage In Indiana” posts on this very subject. For those who haven’t, let me recap.

In Part One, on May 13th of last year, I described the appalling decision by Indiana’s State Supreme Court in the case of Barnes v. State of Indiana. The court determined that a private person had no right to resist unlawful police burglary of their home. I detailed the 800-year-old legal precedents which allow for such use of force, and the farce of the court’s decision. In Part Two, I published an open letter to Governor Mitch Daniels, imploring him to take whatever action he possibly could to provide relief to Hoosiers subjected to police lawlessness. In Part Three, I published the very thoughtful response I received from his office.

To review the matter at hand: Richard Barnes had an argument with his wife, and neighbors called the police. Upon their arrival, the Barneses had reentered their home, and no further argument was occurring. Officers Lenny Reed and Jason Henry (more on them in a moment) insisted on entering the home, and Mr. Barnes refused them entry. The police, unlawfully, entered the home anyway. Mr. Barnes attempted to use non-deadly force to expel them, and he was tased and arrested.

Eight centuries of legal precedent, from the Magna Carta to two 20th century SCOTUS decisions, explicitly authorize the use of reasonable force to prevent unlawful acts of the police. The laws of the state of Indiana do not privilege police officers from justified force if they are acting outside the bounds of the law. The Fourth Amendment, and a substantially similar provision in Indiana’s Constitution prohibit precisely this conduct- the unwarranted and unlawful entry into a private home by government agents.

Nonetheless, Indiana’s Supreme Court ignored the eight centuries of legal tradition, multiple decisions of the United States Supreme Court, the United States Constitution, and the Constitution and laws of Indiana, and determined that a Hoosier’s only lawful recourse was to sue the police agency for damages after being the victim of a violent crime (in this case, burglary and assault) committed by a police officer.

Our Second, Third, and Fourth Amendment rights were established by our Founding Fathers for expressly this reason: Prior to, and during, the American Revolution, armed agents of the British government- soldiers- would routinely enter private homes without cause, assault homeowners and arrest them without charges, and quarter themselves in private homes in order to intimidate homeowners into submission. Expressly for this reason, we have a right to keep and bear arms, a freedom from quartering in private homes, and a freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.

We also have a natural, or God-given (depending on your outlook), right of self-defense, a topic which I have written about extensively. The instinct to protect ourselves, our families, and our property from violent attack is as natural to us as the need to eat. A government decree that a certain class of persons- namely, police officers- are “untouchable”, and may commit violent crimes at will, and the prosecution of private persons who exercise this right against them, is wholly offensive to the basic principles enshrined in our founding document.

Thankfully, Indiana’s legislature has taken up the cause of preserving individual liberties in this matter. Senate Bill 1, introduced by State Senator Mike Young and sponsored by numerous other state legislators, seeks to amend the Indiana Code to explicitly authorize the use of reasonable force against law enforcement officers who commit crimes against private persons.

In short, SB1 changes the language of the state’s use-of-force laws to state that “any person” may be the recipient of defensive force, and adds a section specifically addressing the use of force against police officers. This section authorizes the use of non-deadly force against “any law enforcement officer” to prevent the police officer’s criminal attack upon the person or property, and authorizes deadly force to prevent a law enforcement officer’s criminal attack which may inflict death or serious bodily injury.

Once signed into law, Indiana will become only the second state in the nation to specifically authorize the use of force against police officers acting unlawfully. North Dakota authorizes the use of force to terminate a police officer’s unlawful use of deadly force. Indiana’s statute would dramatically exceed this limited level of protection.

I applaud the state legislature for taking this necessary step to improve the right of self-defense. I also understand Sen. Young is facing a primary challenge this year. I hope Hoosiers will go to the polls in droves and show their support for this fine representative of the people.

And on a final, and ignominious note: Officer Lenny Reed, one of the two goons who burglarized Mr. Barnes’ home, and (ironically) the medic for Evansville PD’s SWAT team, was also involved in an incident involving racial profiling and substantial damage to an innocent man’s RV- which the man was delivering to a buyer- when Reed initiated a wrongful drug search. This incident occurred less than four months before the Indiana Supreme Court’s Barnes decision. Inexplicably, Reed was promoted to Sergeant during roughly the same time frame.

The other goon involved, Officer Jason Henry, resigned from Evansville Police Department after beating up a former sheriff’s deputy, only three months before the Barnes decision. The beating occurred at a meeting of the Indiana Fraternal Order of Police, no less.

Residents of Vanderburgh County have ample reason to question Evansville Police Chief Brad Hill’s professional judgment. Apparently Hoosiers can’t even rely upon the common sense of local officials and police administrators for relief from police lawlessness, which makes the passage of SB1 all the more vital. Mary Beth Schneider of the Indianapolis Star tweeted last night that SB1 passed the Indiana Senate 38-12 and passed the Indiana House 67-26, and is now on its way to Governor Daniels’ desk.

http://conservativedailynews.com/2012/03/sb1-indianas-no-ilegal-police-entry-bill/

ximmy
13th March 2012, 07:25 PM
After the Shooting........... Only call only trusted friends with an available car, shovels and some lime...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5vOKb5G4jI

zap
13th March 2012, 07:41 PM
Is is Lime or Lye?

Ares
13th March 2012, 07:44 PM
Is is Lime or Lye?

Lye will eat everything but hair.

Osiris
13th March 2012, 08:12 PM
Wow! IMO, sad that I even have to think about this kind of stuff, but I know I do. It is actually something I think about often. I don't want to shoot anyone, but if someone breaks in my house, how is that not a threat? Everyone at work knows I have guns for protection, can only imagine how that would come out after the fact. Again, so sad :(

A girl at work asked me today, ironically, "don't you have to announce to an intruder that you have a gun and will shoot them?" My first reaction was absolutely not, if they are in your home unannounced and unwanted then shoot! After reading this I'm scared to protect myself! That's just f'd up!

Ares
13th March 2012, 08:15 PM
Wow! IMO, sad that I even have to think about this kind of stuff, but I know I do. It is actually something I think about often. I don't want to shoot anyone, but if someone breaks in my house, how is that not a threat? Everyone at work knows I have guns for protection, can only imagine how that would come out after the fact. Again, so sad :(

A girl at work asked me today, ironically, "don't you have to announce to an intruder that you have a gun and will shoot them?" My first reaction was absolutely not, if they are in your home unannounced and unwanted then shoot! After reading this I'm scared to protect myself! That's just f'd up!

Read the laws for your state. If you're fortunate enough to live in a no retreat state you'll be ok. If not. Follow what this author said and get your ducks in a row BEFORE anything like that happens.

Osiris
13th March 2012, 08:26 PM
Read the laws for your state. If you're fortunate enough to live in a no retreat state you'll be ok. If not. Follow what this author said and get your ducks in a row BEFORE anything like that happens.

Thanks! I will look into that! I have been happy to live in a state that allows conceal carry but I have never looked into the details of an intruder, I will now. Thank you!

Silver Rocket Bitches!
13th March 2012, 08:35 PM
The term "Make My Day Law" arose at the time of the 1985 Colorado statute that protects people from any criminal charge or civil suit if they use force – including deadly force – against an invader of the home. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine#cite_note-3)The law's nickname is a reference to the line "Go ahead, make my day (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_ahead,_make_my_day)" uttered by actor Clint Eastwood's character Harry Callahan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Callahan_%28character%29) in the 1983 film Sudden Impact (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudden_Impact), inviting a suspect to make himself liable to deadly retaliation by attacking Eastwood's character.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

ximmy
13th March 2012, 09:35 PM
Is is Lime or Lye?

I don't know, I just recalled from some movie or something... could have heard wrong.

Book
13th March 2012, 10:31 PM
Expect unbelievable levels of scrutiny
Every decision you have made in your life up to this point will come into question at some point. You will have to justify the pertinent ones....Here are a few ways you will be challenged for starters:
1. Why did you shoot? Why did you feel threatened?
2. What did you do/say prior to shooting that could have prevented this?
3. Why that choice of pistol...shotgun...type of ammo?
4. How long or why did you wait to call 911?
5. Who else have you contacted? Why?



::) why did you post those gung-ho comments on that GSUS Forum thread about "After The Shooting"? We entered your hard drive into evidence...to prove premeditation.

Twisted Titan
14th March 2012, 03:38 AM
::) why did you post those gung-ho comments on that GSUS Forum thread about "After The Shooting"? We entered your hard drive into evidence...to prove premeditation.


When I go to court the last thing I will expect or get is justice.....but instead a mockery of it with a fullside show that is designed to drain. the pockets of the innocent.

Being that the case......my only recourse is to defend myself and family the best way I know ....all else is secondary.

millwright
14th March 2012, 04:48 AM
When I go to court the last thing I will expect or get is justice.....but instead a mockery of it with a fullside show that is designed to drain. the pockets of the innocent.

Being that the case......my only recourse is to defend myself and family the best way I know ....all else is secondary.

Good article Twist, but i must say this . As soon as i read the title of the article and i saw that you were the one who posted it, my first thought was this.

YOU MY FRIEND, LIVE IN THE WRONG PLACE ! Period end of story. THEREFORE, YOUR TRUE RECOURSE IS TO GET THE FU*K OUT OF THAT HELLHOLE YOU LIVE IN.

I live in KY, and i can and will shoot anyone who breaks into my home to rob me or otherwise.What happens after that will be nothing but a formality. Hell, here in KY i can open carry if i so choose, not to mention that i can keep a loaded firearm in my glovebox,my center console or under my seat for that matter and not be in violation of any freaking law. I can also have my loaded weapon on the passenger seat.

Move now.

Cebu_4_2
14th March 2012, 05:02 AM
How about carrying on your holster on your hip? special license or some reason you rather have it under the seat?

millwright
14th March 2012, 05:20 AM
How about carrying on your holster on your hip? special license or some reason you rather have it under the seat?

Could be many reasons. My point was this. In KY you can legally conceal your weapon in your gove box,under your seat or in your center console and not be considered to be carrying a concealed weapon. Try that sh*t in New Jersey or commieafornia. And as i mentioned before, you can also open carry your loaded weapon in your car or walking down the street or in the grocery store.

In my opinion, concealed carry permits are for suckers. Instead of getting the permit which will make you a marked man in more ways then one, move to a place where you can openly exercise your god givin rights. What could possibly be more important then that ?

All this talk of prepping and being prepared, but yet how many members here have neglected to do the most important prep of all, which is of course to relocate . If you are still in LA or New Jersey and you are puting up food and water etc, you are doing it all wrong.

The time to move was years ago.

Here is what KY law says.

Kentucky Revised Statute 503.080: Protection of property.

(1) The use of physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable when the defendant believes that such force is immediately necessary to prevent:
(a) The commission of criminal trespass, robbery, burglary, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, in a dwelling, building or upon real property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts; or
(b) Theft, criminal mischief, or any trespassory taking of tangible, movable property in his possession or in the possession of another person for whose protection he acts.
(2) The use of deadly physical force by a defendant upon another person is justifiable under subsection (1) only when the defendant believes that the person against whom such force is used is:
(a) Attempting to dispossess him of his dwelling otherwise than under a claim of right to its possession; or
(b) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary, robbery, or other felony involving the use of force, or under those circumstances permitted pursuant to KRS 503.055, of such dwelling; or
(c) Committing or attempting to commit arson of a dwelling or other building in his possession.
(3) A person does not have a duty to retreat if the person is in a place where he or she has a right to be

SLV^GLD
14th March 2012, 06:44 AM
Rule #1 - Kill the intruder(s).

Then the only testimony being given is yours.