Gaillo
16th March 2012, 01:29 PM
Ran across this over at IMDB, about the movie "The Counterfeiters". This exchange on the IMDB message board says a lot about the arrogant and martyred mindset of modern jews regarding the NAZI era, watch her "argument" and attempts to instill guilt fall to pieces! LOL
here're countless of movies that depicts the horror of the Holocaust, from The Schindler's List to this current film. Most of them revolves about the torture of Jews by the Germans. I know that this is a taboo discussion topic but how do Germans feel about all these pictures made about their ancestors? Do you get annoyed?
First of all: It's no taboo and no, I'm not getting annoyed.
Secondly, the movies weren't made about _us_ - they were made about Germans more than half a century ago, simple as that. It's like watching History Channel.
It's part of Germanys history, but not part of me. It was wrong and a tremendous crime, but I didn't commit this crime.
I'm not in denial here or something, but I would very likely shed tears in a powerful movie about slaughtered Tutsi in Ruanda, shot-to-dead Russians in Gulags or clubbed-to-death Cambodians in the Killing Fields.
And I don't feel guilty if that's the core of your question and I was never pressured/manipulated (to feel guilty) by people and friends from all over the world when I was living abroad for a couple of years and this subject came up.
Evil is evil wherever in the world, it has a long and successful history and -unfortunately- a prosperous future.
Call me fatalistic or a pessimist, but I think that's human nature below a very thin layer of civilization. Things like this can happen anywhere and anytime. Think about the Stanford Prison Experiment or experiments about torture the psychologist Stanley Milgram (google it) conducted and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
So, it's nothing special German - it can be found in almost every race and in almost every people around the world, it is sad, it is a fact and it is human.
Nobody should cast a stone and immediately get off his/her high horse unless he/she has been in situations and times like this.
Trying to relevate the Holocaust, is a kind of denial.
That's a typically and expected reflex. It seems you didn't even tried to grasp what I was talking about. For me there are no 1st class or 2nd class victims of crimes against humanity. Murdered people are murdered people regardless of their race, faith or whatever. If that's "relevating the holocaust", up to you.
And, btw, the last 2 paragraphs in my previous post was especially written for people like you who are deliberately reading something else into a otherwise crystal clear statement and so to think before they write, but obviously to no avail...
I have news for you. I am originally German- Jewish , daughter of a holocaust survivor. My grandparents and most of my father's family perished in Auschwitz. I grew up in Germany and immigrated to Israel when I started university.
I have met all kinds of approaches of Germans, who were born after WW2 , relating to the Holocaust. The most comfortable approach was the one you present here. "It could have happened anywhere to anyone".
FACT IS: The Holocaust, the biggest atrocity in the history of mankind, happened in GERMANY and was inflicted by GERMANS, probably the generation of your grandfather,and not by some Martians who landed in the German Reich and kidnapped the poor innocent inhabitants of your country. The most recent researches show, that around 250.000 people took actively part in the atrocities.
Having said that, I do not think that any German being too young for having participated in WW2 ( "the grace of late birth" - in the words of the former German chancellor Helmut Kohl)is guilty or should be held responsible.
BUT I do think, that every young German should be aware of his country's past and show concern, respect and humility facing the bitter facts of his not so far history.
Your "news" are nothing but a claim that can't be verified. Hell, I could claim to be the daughter of a holocaust survivor and you wouldn't know.
We would meet on a different level, wouldn't we?
It's always the same: People get "attacked" afterwards for not giving the "(politically) correct" answer or what other people wish to hear from them.
icefire65 asked a simple question about how Germans feel about those movies. I answered it's like watching History Channel.
You jump on it and demand to show concern, respect and humility.
Who you think you are to tell me (and I think I fall in the category "every young German") what to think and how to feel, "comfortable approach", huh?!
Furthermore, you choose to completely ignore the fact that I said all victims of genocide or crimes against humanity are equal, but that seems not enough for you.
Do you want me to declare that the holocaust was the worst crime and therefore the Jewish have been "worse off than other"??
Again the afore-mentioned "1st/2nd class victim" card??
Why are you highlighting your FACT that much? I never denied the holocaust and by whom it was committed! Trying to put me in a corner?
You know, I was working at the state archive Berlin for a couple of years and had to sort out, register, read and summarize all kinds of documents, letters etc.
from sterilisation over disposession of jewish property all the way to deportation and death.
I've read enough to get nightmares, so again - nobody tells me what to think and what to feel.
I hope I haven't been to harsh in my reply (I'm sure I was...), but I don't like being labeled and/or lectured!
Who I think I am?
I am a reminder and a living candle of rememberance .
For you facing me stirs up emotions. And good so.
But there is no need for agressive-defensive or harsh responses.
Your leant-backed and ostentively nonchalent (in German: "flappsiges"!)
statement, that watching a Holocaust movie is for you like watching
history channel sends signals of self-inflicted detachment.
The trend to relevate the Holocaust is an easy way out
to face its relevance and unique position in modern European history.
And YES, the Jewish people have suffered most, although you seem to have
difficulties to admit it.
Some people say, that the Germans will never forgive the Jews
that Auschwitz happend.
This is a sentence that needs to be read twice.
I will accept your nightmares as a token of your emotion.
Quite explosive topic...
Isn't it a bit dangerous to say that the Jews suffered more than others? This could be taken as a dispraise of other victims of genocide all over the world. Should be careful!
As you are so good at telling us (Germans and - not to forget - Austrians like me) how we should feel about the Holocaust ... maybe you can help me out:
My grandfather was a member of the SA and definetly a Nazi. His brother was arrested as a deserter because he didn't want to fight for Hitler. Now, should I feel guilty because my father's father supported one of the most horrible crimes that ever happened or am I allowed to be a bit proud because another member of my family was against it and brave enough to show that?
Saying that something like the Holocaust could have happended anywhere is by no means relevating it. It's just a very sad truth.
The human race is cruel by nature and this has nothing to do with colour, religion or national borders. Call me pessimistic but if we (by we I mean mankind as a whole!) keep on like this our grandchildren or even our children might see things that are even worse! So instead of feeling guilty for our country's past we should rather take care for the future so that something like the Holocaust can't happen again.
Isn't it a bit dangerous to say that the Jews suffered more than others? This could be taken as a dispraise of other victims of genocide all over the world. Should be careful!
Good point Moruad made...Timberlady1 why didnt you react on the above?
No, it doesn't "stir up emotions". It's fun to argue with someone with a hidden agenda...
And am I not supposed to be a cold-blooded German without any responsibility in regards to my forefathers crimes?!
I also think that your constant (and again, lecturing) use and highlighting of German words to bring your point across seems to prove my point that you're not what you pretend to be. Certainly not a daughter of a holocaust victim with German roots.
I guess you're a self opinionated, theatrical and joyless girl indulged in self-importance combined with a priggish and "perfect" morally integrity that inevitable makes you...a bore.
I rest my case.
here're countless of movies that depicts the horror of the Holocaust, from The Schindler's List to this current film. Most of them revolves about the torture of Jews by the Germans. I know that this is a taboo discussion topic but how do Germans feel about all these pictures made about their ancestors? Do you get annoyed?
First of all: It's no taboo and no, I'm not getting annoyed.
Secondly, the movies weren't made about _us_ - they were made about Germans more than half a century ago, simple as that. It's like watching History Channel.
It's part of Germanys history, but not part of me. It was wrong and a tremendous crime, but I didn't commit this crime.
I'm not in denial here or something, but I would very likely shed tears in a powerful movie about slaughtered Tutsi in Ruanda, shot-to-dead Russians in Gulags or clubbed-to-death Cambodians in the Killing Fields.
And I don't feel guilty if that's the core of your question and I was never pressured/manipulated (to feel guilty) by people and friends from all over the world when I was living abroad for a couple of years and this subject came up.
Evil is evil wherever in the world, it has a long and successful history and -unfortunately- a prosperous future.
Call me fatalistic or a pessimist, but I think that's human nature below a very thin layer of civilization. Things like this can happen anywhere and anytime. Think about the Stanford Prison Experiment or experiments about torture the psychologist Stanley Milgram (google it) conducted and you'll understand what I'm talking about.
So, it's nothing special German - it can be found in almost every race and in almost every people around the world, it is sad, it is a fact and it is human.
Nobody should cast a stone and immediately get off his/her high horse unless he/she has been in situations and times like this.
Trying to relevate the Holocaust, is a kind of denial.
That's a typically and expected reflex. It seems you didn't even tried to grasp what I was talking about. For me there are no 1st class or 2nd class victims of crimes against humanity. Murdered people are murdered people regardless of their race, faith or whatever. If that's "relevating the holocaust", up to you.
And, btw, the last 2 paragraphs in my previous post was especially written for people like you who are deliberately reading something else into a otherwise crystal clear statement and so to think before they write, but obviously to no avail...
I have news for you. I am originally German- Jewish , daughter of a holocaust survivor. My grandparents and most of my father's family perished in Auschwitz. I grew up in Germany and immigrated to Israel when I started university.
I have met all kinds of approaches of Germans, who were born after WW2 , relating to the Holocaust. The most comfortable approach was the one you present here. "It could have happened anywhere to anyone".
FACT IS: The Holocaust, the biggest atrocity in the history of mankind, happened in GERMANY and was inflicted by GERMANS, probably the generation of your grandfather,and not by some Martians who landed in the German Reich and kidnapped the poor innocent inhabitants of your country. The most recent researches show, that around 250.000 people took actively part in the atrocities.
Having said that, I do not think that any German being too young for having participated in WW2 ( "the grace of late birth" - in the words of the former German chancellor Helmut Kohl)is guilty or should be held responsible.
BUT I do think, that every young German should be aware of his country's past and show concern, respect and humility facing the bitter facts of his not so far history.
Your "news" are nothing but a claim that can't be verified. Hell, I could claim to be the daughter of a holocaust survivor and you wouldn't know.
We would meet on a different level, wouldn't we?
It's always the same: People get "attacked" afterwards for not giving the "(politically) correct" answer or what other people wish to hear from them.
icefire65 asked a simple question about how Germans feel about those movies. I answered it's like watching History Channel.
You jump on it and demand to show concern, respect and humility.
Who you think you are to tell me (and I think I fall in the category "every young German") what to think and how to feel, "comfortable approach", huh?!
Furthermore, you choose to completely ignore the fact that I said all victims of genocide or crimes against humanity are equal, but that seems not enough for you.
Do you want me to declare that the holocaust was the worst crime and therefore the Jewish have been "worse off than other"??
Again the afore-mentioned "1st/2nd class victim" card??
Why are you highlighting your FACT that much? I never denied the holocaust and by whom it was committed! Trying to put me in a corner?
You know, I was working at the state archive Berlin for a couple of years and had to sort out, register, read and summarize all kinds of documents, letters etc.
from sterilisation over disposession of jewish property all the way to deportation and death.
I've read enough to get nightmares, so again - nobody tells me what to think and what to feel.
I hope I haven't been to harsh in my reply (I'm sure I was...), but I don't like being labeled and/or lectured!
Who I think I am?
I am a reminder and a living candle of rememberance .
For you facing me stirs up emotions. And good so.
But there is no need for agressive-defensive or harsh responses.
Your leant-backed and ostentively nonchalent (in German: "flappsiges"!)
statement, that watching a Holocaust movie is for you like watching
history channel sends signals of self-inflicted detachment.
The trend to relevate the Holocaust is an easy way out
to face its relevance and unique position in modern European history.
And YES, the Jewish people have suffered most, although you seem to have
difficulties to admit it.
Some people say, that the Germans will never forgive the Jews
that Auschwitz happend.
This is a sentence that needs to be read twice.
I will accept your nightmares as a token of your emotion.
Quite explosive topic...
Isn't it a bit dangerous to say that the Jews suffered more than others? This could be taken as a dispraise of other victims of genocide all over the world. Should be careful!
As you are so good at telling us (Germans and - not to forget - Austrians like me) how we should feel about the Holocaust ... maybe you can help me out:
My grandfather was a member of the SA and definetly a Nazi. His brother was arrested as a deserter because he didn't want to fight for Hitler. Now, should I feel guilty because my father's father supported one of the most horrible crimes that ever happened or am I allowed to be a bit proud because another member of my family was against it and brave enough to show that?
Saying that something like the Holocaust could have happended anywhere is by no means relevating it. It's just a very sad truth.
The human race is cruel by nature and this has nothing to do with colour, religion or national borders. Call me pessimistic but if we (by we I mean mankind as a whole!) keep on like this our grandchildren or even our children might see things that are even worse! So instead of feeling guilty for our country's past we should rather take care for the future so that something like the Holocaust can't happen again.
Isn't it a bit dangerous to say that the Jews suffered more than others? This could be taken as a dispraise of other victims of genocide all over the world. Should be careful!
Good point Moruad made...Timberlady1 why didnt you react on the above?
No, it doesn't "stir up emotions". It's fun to argue with someone with a hidden agenda...
And am I not supposed to be a cold-blooded German without any responsibility in regards to my forefathers crimes?!
I also think that your constant (and again, lecturing) use and highlighting of German words to bring your point across seems to prove my point that you're not what you pretend to be. Certainly not a daughter of a holocaust victim with German roots.
I guess you're a self opinionated, theatrical and joyless girl indulged in self-importance combined with a priggish and "perfect" morally integrity that inevitable makes you...a bore.
I rest my case.