Drilled and filled gold bars found in Australia

[madfranks]

http://lewrockwell.com/wenzel/wenzel169.html

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by Robert Wenzel
Economic Policy Journal

Recently by Robert Wenzel: The Ford Foundation and the CIA




Australian bullion dealer ABC Bullion is reporting that one of its suppliers has provided them photographic evidence of a tungsten filled 1 kilo gold bar,. The bar passed a hand-held xrf scan which showed 99.98% pure AU. The tungsten was only discovered when the bar was physically cut in half.

After numerous reports of 400oz tungsten filled bars being discovered in Hong Kong, this is the first documented and verified report with photographic evidence that has been made public, states Silver Doctors. ABC Bullion is a major player in the gold bar business and thus this report should be taken seriously.

Here's the reports from ABC:

Attached are photographs of a legitimate Metalor 1000gm Au bar that has been drilled out and filled with Tungsten (W).

This bar was purchased by staff of a scrap dealer in xxxxx, UK yesterday. The bar appeared to be perfect other than the fact that it was 2gms underweight. It was checked by hand-held xrf and showed 99.98% Au. Being Tungsten, it would not be ferro-magnetic. The bar was supplied with the original certificate.

The owner of the business that purchased the bar only became suspicious when he realized the weight discrepancy and had the bar cropped. He estimates between 30-40% of the weight of the bar to be Tungsten.

This is very worrying and reinforces the lengths that people are willing to go to profit from the current high metal prices. Please be careful.

[undgrd]

Personally, I would recommend companies start tapering their larger gold bars. It would difficult to drill and fill (and keep it looking good) if the entire bar tapered.

[SLV^GLD]

Tungsten is not cheap; cheaper than Gold, yes, but this ain't lead, folks.

I'm not a metallurgist but I imagine it takes some skill, special tools and considerable knowledge to pull this level of sham off.

I suspect more motive than simply profiting on the margin of Tungsten sold for Gold prices minus the cost of tools and time and effort.

[mamboni]

Tungsten is a bitch to work with: extremely hard, brittle, impossible to machine and the highest melting point of all metals. These bars have been manufactured by pros. And if they tooled for one bar, they tooled for ten thousands. The question of how many salted good delivery bars there are extant remains an open one. Personally, I have zero confidence in the integrity of gold holdings of central banks; and tungsten is another nail in their credibility coffin. Private buyers should stick with gold bullion coins from reputable mints, such as the US, Austria and Canada. I wouldn't trust a gold bar that I couldn't cut in half or melt down.

[madfranks]

Tungsten is not cheap; cheaper than Gold, yes, but this ain't lead, folks.

I'm not a metallurgist but I imagine it takes some skill, special tools and considerable knowledge to pull this level of sham off.

I suspect more motive than simply profiting on the margin of Tungsten sold for Gold prices minus the cost of tools and time and effort.

I'm not so sure. They estimated between 30-40% of the gold was removed, and with a 1000 gram bar, that's 300-400 grams of gold, or anywhere between $16,000 - $22,000 profit (assuming $1700 gold). That's quite the payoff per gold bar for someone with that skill set.

[croc]

drill a hole in soft gold, with low melting point. Pour in tungsten with high melting point and bar doesnt deform? That bar would have had to have had the gold poured around the tungsten, so manufacture fake.... someone correct me if I am wrong

[LastResort]

Mamboni is spot on with his assertions...

Theres likely alot of these things out there.

[muffin]

drill a hole in soft gold, with low melting point. Pour in tungsten with high melting point and bar doesnt deform? That bar would have had to have had the gold poured around the tungsten, so manufacture fake.... someone correct me if I am wrong

that's exactly what i was thinking. they had to lay the tungsten down then pour the gold over it. makes sense to me...

[undgrd]

drill a hole in soft gold, with low melting point. Pour in tungsten with high melting point and bar doesnt deform? That bar would have had to have had the gold poured around the tungsten, so manufacture fake.... someone correct me if I am wrong

Odds are they calculated the size of a tungsten tube needed to fill the hole they drilled in the bar. Once the hole is drilled, drop the tungsten bar inside the hole. Back-fill the hole with liquid gold. Tungsten has a higher melting point than gold so the tungsten bar won't melt. The gold will cool fast enough so as not to melt through the bar. Polish the bar back to its original look.

It's that, or the manufacturer put the tungsten in the bar from the word go.

[DMac]

Mamboni is spot on with his assertions...

Theres likely alot of these things out there.

Exactly. Tungsten isn't some noob metal any ole Joe can work with. Ziopedia:

Physical properties

In tungsten's raw form, it is a hard steel-gray metal that is often brittle and hard to work. If made very pure, tungsten retains its hardness (which exceeds that of many steels), and becomes malleable enough that it can be worked easily.[6] It is worked by forging, drawing, extruding or sintering.

Of all metals in pure form, tungsten has the highest melting point (3,422 °C, 6,192 °F), lowest vapor pressure (at temperatures above 1,650 °C, 3,000 °F) and the highest tensile strength.[14] Tungsten has the lowest coefficient of thermal expansion of any pure metal. The low thermal expansion and high melting point and strength of tungsten originate from strong covalent bonds formed between tungsten atoms by the 5d electrons.[15] Alloying small quantities of tungsten with steel greatly increases its toughness.[4]

[madfranks]

Tungsten is a bitch to work with: extremely hard, brittle, impossible to machine and the highest melting point of all metals. These bars have been manufactured by pros. And if they tooled for one bar, they tooled for ten thousands. The question of how many salted good delivery bars there are extant remains an open one. Personally, I have zero confidence in the integrity of gold holdings of central banks; and tungsten is another nail in their credibility coffin. Private buyers should stick with gold bullion coins from reputable mints, such as the US, Austria and Canada. I wouldn't trust a gold bar that I couldn't cut in half or melt down.

http://www.torreyhillstech.com/wroddept.html

You can buy tungsten rods for ~$50 online. So just buy them, drill the gold and fill it yourself. I'm not convinced this is a large operation, I think it's likely a small time crook with some machining skills.

[mamboni]

http://www.torreyhillstech.com/wroddept.html

You can buy tungsten rods for ~$50 online. So just buy them, drill the gold and fill it yourself. I'm not convinced this is a large operation, I think it's likely a small time crook with some machining skills.

You and I must have larceny in our hearts, a wee bit, becuase this exact idea crossed my mind. Hell, for netting $16000 it sure as shit is worht the trouble. Now precision drilling the holes in the bar is easy enough as gold is so soft. And cutting the tungsten rods into segments and tapping into place is also no problem. But, how does one seal the holes and finish them in gold so smoothly as to appear pristine. This is not easy because the metla was poured and the slightest imperfection will be noticable.

[solid]

But, how does one seal the holes and finish them in gold so smoothly as to appear pristine. This is not easy because the metla was poured and the slightest imperfection will be noticable.

What if said one filled in the holes, then slightly melted the whole end of the bar smoothing the whole end evenly. The slight imperfections would not be as noticeable around the edges of the bar. Perhaps?

[mamboni]

What if said one filled in the holes, then slightly melted the whole end of the bar smoothing the whole end evenly. The slight imperfections would not be as noticeable around the edges of the bar. Perhaps?

Yeah, but how the heck do you do that. Gold is an excellent conductor of heat. How does one melt just the end? Maybe the bar could be dipped in molten gold after the holes are filled and packed with gold power?

[solid]

Maybe the bar could be dipped in molten gold after the holes are filled and packed with gold power?

That sounds like it would work. Then, wet sand the molten gold to even it out, maybe? This is a very interesting topic to discuss.

[LastResort]

I'd think youd make a mess of these bars pretty quick drilling precise holes in these bars and then tapping super hard tungsten into them carefully...

This is no backyard shop scam here...

[Awoke]

I know hundreds of standard Millwright/Machinists/Tool&Die guys that could do it in their garages.
These guys are kings in metalurgy, especially the guys who take their trade serious. It's not as complicated as you guys are making it sound.

[solid]

I'd think youd make a mess of these bars pretty quick drilling precise holes in these bars and then tapping super hard tungsten into them carefully...

This is no backyard shop scam here...

Someone with a CNC drill, and the correct drill bit, I would think could make very precise holes in the bar. Maybe CNC machinists will be the next added to terrorist watch lists. :)

EDIT: Opps Awoke beat me to it!

[osoab]

Someone with a CNC drill, and the correct drill bit, I would think could make very precise holes in the bar. Maybe CNC machinists will be the next added to terrorist watch lists. :)



You wouldn't need a CNC machine necessarily. You could use a regular milling machine to do the job.

[LastResort]

I know hundreds of standard Millwright/Machinists/Tool&Die guys that could do it in their garages.
These guys are kings in metalurgy, especially the guys who take their trade serious. It's not as complicated as you guys are making it sound.

Good thing my opinion is backed by my Tool & Die papers...;)






Someone with a CNC drill, and the correct drill bit, I would think could make very precise holes in the bar. Maybe CNC machinists will be the next added to terrorist watch lists. :)

EDIT: Opps Awoke beat me to it!

Well solid you wouldn't need a CNC that would make things easier though.

You'd need high quality precise tungsten rods, really good tooling as the doc already touched on.

Yes a monkey could fill some gold bars with tungsten. It would take serious skill to do it properly so it passes being xray scanned or whatever they touched on.

I think there is probably alot of these out there, enough to fill the demand for the GLD ETF warehouse anyways... I'm just glad faking 1/10 ounce maples would be worth the hassle.

There is more than 1 way to fake these bars this is just My opinion...

[mamboni]

I wonder: can all of us be arrested by the PreCrime Division of the Justice Department for merely thinking about this? After all, when it comes to stealing, the government hates competition.

[Awoke]

Good thing my opinion is backed by my Tool & Die papers...;)

Tricky tricky...

;)

I stand by what I said though. Drilling and filling is a non-issue. It is making them so that they will pass the tests that is the only tricky part, and it really doesn't look that difficult to pass the tests, based on the bar in the OP.

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

It's gonna take me forever to drill through all of my kilo bars.

[madfranks]

Tricky tricky...

;)

I stand by what I said though. Drilling and filling is a non-issue. It is making them so that they will pass the tests that is the only tricky part, and it really doesn't look that difficult to pass the tests, based on the bar in the OP.

The only reason the bar was investigated was because it was 2 grams off. On a 1000 gram bar, that's a mis-precision of 0.2%. The tricky part, it seems, is getting the finished product to weigh exactly the same as the original.

[solid]

Yes a monkey could fill some gold bars with tungsten. It would take serious skill to do it properly so it passes being xray scanned or whatever they touched on..

That's a good point. I imagine there could not be any tiny air gaps between the tungsten rod and the gold, or that would show up on an xray. You are right, it obviously takes some very good skill to do this. The fit would have to be perfect.

Along with 1/10 ounce maples, I'm just happy british sovs are too small for this as well. If it passes a fisch test, I'm happy. I don't plan on buying any gold bars. I'll stick to coins. I'm also starting to wonder if silver bars are a good idea anymore...

[SLV^GLD]

that would show up on an xray.

Gold is excellent x-ray barrier seeing as it is nearly twice as dense as Lead.

[beefsteak]

That's a good point. I imagine there could not be any tiny air gaps between the tungsten rod and the gold, or that would show up on an xray. You are right, it obviously takes some very good skill to do this. The fit would have to be perfect.

Along with 1/10 ounce maples, I'm just happy british sovs are too small for this as well. If it passes a fisch test, I'm happy. I don't plan on buying any gold bars. I'll stick to coins. I'm also starting to wonder if silver bars are a good idea anymore...

Solid,
you make an excellent point.

I'm reminded of a thread on the old GIM forum where a respected poster (I was a lurker at that time) was drummed off the forum for reporting and backing up his claim of AMPEX selling him counterfeit silver bars.

Silver ingots' drilling and filling has also be documented to my satisfaction. In fact, I know one prominent refinery who will not buy ANY silver bars which are presented to them at their customer retail intake counter. NONE! Regardless of whose hallmark it bears.


beefsteak

[Awoke]

Buy silver, people. In small denominations.

[horseshoe3]

Tungsten is a bitch to work with: extremely hard, brittle, ...

The first thing I thought of is, "I wonder if they ruined the blade when they sheared that bar."

[madfranks]

Buy silver, people. In small denominations.

I agree, silver is good, but there's nothing wrong with small gold coins too.

[SLV^GLD]

I'd like to see a drilled and filled Dos Pesos.

[Awoke]

I agree, silver is good, but there's nothing wrong with small gold coins too.

Meh, that's for you rich-folk. lol

[chad]

gold bars such as this are typically NOT examined when a transaction takes place (i know that sounds insane). typically what happens is that they are sold by weight, and only after they are transferred are they examined. i expect that's what happened here, it was caught during the after the sale inspection. larger bars are assumed to be safe, so imperfections are really only caught long after the sale takes place.

my cousin's father in law witnessed a transaction of several million in gold at scotia a few years back. he told me they just took them out of one pile, put them on a scale and weighed them, and when the weight checked out, that was it. nobody looks at them at all as long as the weight checks out.

[mamboni]

gold bars such as this are typically NOT examined when a transaction takes place (i know that sounds insane). typically what happens is that they are sold by weight, and only after they are transferred are they examined. i expect that's what happened here, it was caught during the after the sale inspection. larger bars are assumed to be safe, so imperfections are really only caught long after the sale takes place.

my cousin's father in law witnessed a transaction of several million in gold at scotia a few years back. he told me they just took them out of one pile, put them on a scale and weighed them, and when the weight checked out, that was it. nobody looks at them at all as long as the weight checks out.

They are being practical from a handling perspective. Imagine if each bar had to be tested how it would slow the works. But the presumption is the bars will be traded as unique serial numbered items and the authenticity is assumed. Now imagine one day melting down a $700,000 good delivery bar and finding 50% being tungsten or that fake gold alloy out of China. That would be one big fricking loss. It's strictly bullion coins for me. And even there, you have to be careful as there are anecdotal reports of fake gold coins, though I have never seen one.

[E. Haney]

I hope you realize this filled bar is a fake, something done to monger fear, and it does it quite well.

It is an actual Metalor kilobar, cut in half, drilled, filled and nipped to look authentic, but that's it, a hoax.

Don't believe me? Look at the photos.
Why is one half of the bar sawn and the other half cut with bolt cutters?
Where is the missing ~3/16" of bar between 'GOLD' and .9999?
Why had the name of the city the bar was discovered in been x'd out, not the dealer's name, the entire city?

Relax people, unbunch your panties, you fell for a fear based hoax, an urban legend.