How can "vagrancy" and sovereignty co-exist?

[TheNocturnalEgyptian]

So I was thinking about what true sovereignty is and also about the concept of a 'vagrant'. It occurred to me that he should still be sovereign, so how can these two concepts co-exist?

vagrancy n. moving about without a means to support oneself, without a permanent home, and relying on begging.

Until recently it was a considered a minor crime (misdemeanor) in many states. Yet Constitutionally it is evident that being poor is not a crime!

So what is going on here? Does a sovereign absolutely require a home?





At Common Law the term vagrant referred to a person who was idle, refused to work although capable of doing so, and lived on the charity of others. Until the 1970s state vagrancy statutes were used by police to charge persons who were suspected of criminal activity, but whose actions had not gone far enough to constitute a criminal attempt. Court decisions, however, have struck down vagrancy laws as unconstitutionally vague.

Traditionally, communities tended to regard vagrants with suspicion and view them either as beggars or as persons likely to commit crimes. In England vagrants were whipped, branded, conscripted into military service, or exiled to penal colonies. [NOT SOVEREIGN] In colonial America vagrancy statutes were common. A person who wandered into a town and did not find work was told to leave the community or face criminal prosecution.


Seems like such a heinous crime to assault someone and arrest their liberty for standing on land....for simply being.

[Twisted Titan]

A person who wandered into a town and did not find work was told to leave the community or face criminal prosecution.

.
Sounds about right.....a square dealing person can always find employ....if you dont remain vigilant a parasite can quickly attach to you.

[Hatha Sunahara]

We have an ownership culture. If you own nothing, or have no job you don't fit in.

Being homeless means you don't have a shelter to live in that is your own. You don't have to own anything to be sovereign. Here is a definition of Sovereign:


1 a : one possessing or held to possess supreme political power or sovereignty (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sovereignty)
b : one that exercises supreme authority within a limited sphere (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sphere[1])
c : an acknowledged leader : arbiter (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arbiter)



2: any of various gold coins of the United Kingdom




Merriam Webster

Doesn't say anything about owning anything.

So Vagrants can be Sovereigns. In English speaking countries, all they have to do is assert their inalienable rights.


Hatha

[Glass]

By who's standard is the measure of a persons vagrancy?


Traditionally, communities tended to regard vagrants with suspicion and view them either as beggars or as persons likely to commit crimes.

If a person needs no work, charity or mischief to sustain themselves are they still measured as a vagrant?

Can you imagine a circumstance where a person like the one I described might exist or does your tradition prevent you from seeing a person like that as they truly are?

[Santa]

Nowadays, a vagrant gets conscripted as a prison slave.

[Carl]

There was a fairly good movie about vagrancy a while back, I think it was called Rambo....

[Horn]

The key to being a successful vagrant is remaining a sovereign nomadic gypsy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7NzsoUIrzM

[palani]

A sovereign is a gold coin. The price of a British sovereign is not just based on the gold content alone.
http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/pics/gold-coin-sovereigns.jpeg

There presently no coin called a vagrant. However, this is my idea of what one such coin would look like if it did exist:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvqWjYOYY2m0XtNUCE1wtP9Zjdc9yzx lsOcMH1nHBZoS3BWYdO

[singular_me]

The key to being a successful vagrant is remaining a sovereign nomadic gypsy.

are you pointing at me.... LOL... well I do fit your definition for at least another 6 months.

[Horn]

are you pointing at me.... LOL... well I do fit your definition for at least another 6 months.

You're not alone, after 3 years I start to get jumpy when I even just hear the word "taxes".

It sends my gypsy sovereignty into a spin.

[Carl]

A sovereign citizen has a vested interest in the well being of the community within which he/she lives. A vagrant, with no vested interest, is the introduction of an unknown variable into the social/civil and economic structure of the community. You, and the all the other members of your community, knows what it takes to live there, so how will the vagrant support him/herself? If the vagrant can't come up with a reasonable explanation as to his/her plans for maintaining their existence within the community, then it is best just to move them along....

[palani]

A sovereign citizen ...

is by definition an oxymoron. Sort of like an idiot savant.

[Carl]

is by definition an oxymoron. Sort of like an idiot savant.

It's only an oxymoron to idiots who labor under the delusion that they're also savant.

[palani]

It's only an oxymoron to idiots who labor under the delusion that they're also savant.
Frequently idiots don't know they are idiots.

A citizen is a subject. A sovereign is not. A sovereign citizen is a misguided putz.

[Carl]

Frequently idiots don't know they are idiots.

A citizen is a subject. A sovereign is not. A sovereign citizen is a misguided putz.

There you go, pretending you're a savant again.

This is what a citizen has meant and continues to mean to most Americans:

A citizen is an inhabitant of a city or town; especially: one entitled to the rights and privileges of a freeman (sovereign), a civilian as distinguished from a specialized servant of the state.

So tell us, which government agency are you a servant to?

[palani]

There you go, pretending you're a savant again.
I know it is hard but try to avoid ad hominem.


This is what a citizen has meant and continues to mean to most Americans:

A citizen is an inhabitant of a city or town; especially: one entitled to the rights and privileges of a freeman (sovereign), a civilian as distinguished from a specialized servant of the state.
There you go mixing up terms again. A civilian is a student of the law. A non-civilian might be someone who ignores the law.

A citizen in YOUR world is defined by the 14th amendment and is SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION. A sovereign is not a subject of his own jurisdiction.


So tell us, which government agency are you a servant to?
Tell us how you would use this information?

[Carl]

There you go mixing up terms again. A civilian is a student of the law. A non-civilian might be someone who ignores the law.

If we were living in 14th century France, I might agree with you but we don't live in 14th century France do we?

A civilian is a non-combatant or anyone not in direct service to the government/state.


A citizen in YOUR world is defined by the 14th amendment and is SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION. A sovereign is not a subject of his own jurisdiction.


Jurisdiction (from the Latin ius, iuris meaning "law" and dicere meaning "to speak") is the practical authority granted to a formally constituted legal body or to a political leader to deal with and make pronouncements on legal matters and, by implication, to administer justice within a defined area of responsibility. The term is also used to denote the geographical area or subject-matter to which such authority applies.

Even a sovereign non-citizen is subject to the law. Let me reiterate: Subject To The Law.

A sovereign citizen has a say in the content of that law.

The 14th means no more than what we allow it to mean.

[Libertytree]

This seems off kilter. So, I come to your town looking for work and I don't find any right away and I'm classified as a vagrant? If I'm not verifiably "employed" am I some type of scum? I'm a sovereign nation unto myself, if ya want to call me a vagrant have at it, asshole.

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NkNjgIruoE

[Santa]

This seems off kilter. So, I come to your town looking for work and I don't find any right away and I'm classified as a vagrant? If I'm not verifiably "employed" am I some type of scum? I'm a sovereign nation unto myself, if ya want to call me a vagrant have at it, asshole.

The state of Wackenhut has a cot waiting for you at the corporate prison, vagrant.

[solid]

If a person needs no work, charity or mischief to sustain themselves are they still measured as a vagrant?

Can you imagine a circumstance where a person like the one I described might exist or does your tradition prevent you from seeing a person like that as they truly are?

This is a very interesting thread, and good questions. Makes me think it's a US cultural thing, there's no difference between a vagrant and a traveler. I've been the traveler in other countries, just some dude with a backpack, and was warmly welcomed. Here, we seem to call them vagrants and they are to be feared, or distrusted.

[Carl]

This seems off kilter. So, I come to your town looking for work and I don't find any right away and I'm classified as a vagrant? If I'm not verifiably "employed" am I some type of scum? I'm a sovereign nation unto myself, if ya want to call me a vagrant have at it, asshole.

It's not off kilter at all. A person has no unalienable right to the assets of others. A community is the asset of those who built it and they retain the right to administer it as they see fit.

If that see fit to kick vagrants out, it is their right to do so.

[palani]

If we were living in 14th century France, I might agree with you but we don't live in 14th century France do we?
Speak for yourself. I was born on territory that was once French.


A civilian is a non-combatant or anyone not in direct service to the government/state. You are hardly sovereign if you let someone else establish the meaning of your words. I choose to abide by the definitions that were established before power was derived from shifting words. A civilian is a student of law. A citizen is one who has joined himself with a municipality.




Jurisdiction (from the Latin ius, iuris meaning "law" and dicere meaning "to speak") is the practical authority granted to a formally constituted legal body or to a political leader to deal with and make pronouncements on legal matters and, by implication, to administer justice within a defined area of responsibility. The term is also used to denote the geographical area or subject-matter to which such authority applies. I am the only one I know who can grant the authority to administer justice on myself.


Even a sovereign non-citizen is subject to the law. Let me reiterate: Subject To The Law. A sovereign citizen is a non-entity. Non-entities have no law to be subject to.


A sovereign citizen has a say in the content of that law. Has this worked out well for you? Obviously you believe you have a say in law. Does that mean we can blame you for the state the law is in?


The 14th means no more than what we allow it to mean. You claim allegiance to a red government and believe you are in control? Would you mind proving it because I believe you are a Toby on the plantation?

[solid]

If that see fit to kick vagrants out, it is their right to do so.

And who makes that decision? The "king" of the local serfdom? Sounds more like a cult, rather than a freedom loving town of decent folks who can think outside the box, and see the truth.

[Libertytree]

It's not off kilter at all. A person has no unalienable right to the assets of others. A community is the asset of those who built it and they retain the right to administer it as they see fit.

If that see fit to kick vagrants out, it is their right to do so.

Where did I say I was taking the assets of others?

[palani]

It's not off kilter at all. A person has no unalienable right to the assets of others.

A "person" is
1) a word
2) an action
3) representation


A Person What
A PERSON, is he "whose words or actions are considered, either as his own,
or as representing the words or actions of an other man, or of any
other thing to whom they are attributed, whether Truly or by Fiction."

Person Naturall, And Artificiall
When they are considered as his owne, then is he called a Naturall Person:
And when they are considered as representing the words and actions
of an other, then is he a Feigned or Artificiall person.

These are words of art that are used by "civilians" to confuse the masses. The rules of hospitality have nothing to do with this art form.

[Horn]

It's not off kilter at all. A person has no unalienable right to the assets of others. A community is the asset of those who built it and they retain the right to administer it as they see fit.

If that see fit to kick vagrants out, it is their right to do so.

There are also whole communities that are setup to cater their assets to aliens.

To turn the other cheek if some fantasy monetary obligation has not been met is also unlawful.

[Glass]

A sovereign is a gold coin. The price of a British sovereign is not just based on the gold content alone.
http://www.usagold.com/gold/coins/pics/gold-coin-sovereigns.jpeg

There presently no coin called a vagrant. However, this is my idea of what one such coin would look like if it did exist:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQvqWjYOYY2m0XtNUCE1wtP9Zjdc9yzx lsOcMH1nHBZoS3BWYdO

That coin is exactly what I was thinking about. The indigenous peoples would be considered vagrant according to our western tradition yet they would not need for money or charity if they were living according to their tradition.

[Carl]

Where did I say I was taking the assets of others?

Nowhere.

[Carl]

There are also whole communities that are setup to cater their assets to aliens.

To turn the other cheek if some fantasy monetary obligation has not been met is also unlawful.

OK?

[Carl]

~ I believe you are a Toby on the plantation?

And I should be concerned about what a silly little twit who lives his life vicariously through 14th century dictionaries believes, why?

pfft....

[palani]

And I should be concerned about what a silly little twit who lives his life vicariously through 14th century dictionaries believes, why?

pfft....

Imagine that!!! A Toby who doesn't know how to cultivate.


MAN'S mind may be likened to a garden, which may be intelligently
cultivated or allowed to run wild; but whether cultivated or
neglected, it must, and will, _bring forth._ If no useful seeds are
_put_ into it, then an abundance of useless weed-seeds will _fall_
therein, and will continue to produce their kind.

[Horn]

OK?

You seem to like to govern with blind happenstance.

"Communities" may not even realize they baited the hook for vagrants, then on some whim to turn their shudders in when things go "not as planned".

Has no more right in it then wrong.

[Carl]

You seem to like to govern with blind happenstance.

"Communities" may not even realize they baited the hook for vagrants, then on some whim to turn their shudders in when things go "not as planned".

Has no more right in it then wrong.

I don't understand you point, is it your contention that the community is somehow obligated to service the needs of the vagrant?

Maybe give him/her a sack lunch before showing them the door?

I thought the whole point of living in liberty was taking responsibility for your condition?

There are always mitigating circumstances in every person's story, I'm not trying to imply that no one should consider the vagrant's story.

[solid]

Nobody wants to tackle the question of what is the different between a traveler, and a vagrant. So, I will try. The only difference, it seems, is a vagrant is possibly a beggar? Perhaps, someone, the community might think could cause problems.

So, why not just outlaw begging then? The town could just toss out all beggars, regardless of who they may be.

[Libertytree]

The community is not obligated to the vagrant but is also not at liberty to put said person in the class of a criminal either.

[Horn]

I'm not trying to imply that no one should consider the vagrant's story.

Thank you, but your still posse comatose.

[Carl]

The community is not obligated to the vagrant but is also not at liberty to put said person in the class of a criminal either.

I agree with that. Helping the vagrant exercise their right to travel freely through their community assures them that the likelyhood of criminality does not arise thus securing the vagrant's continued right to travel. Win/Win.

[Carl]

Imagine that!!! A Toby who doesn't know how to cultivate.

I'm certain that you're confusing your ability to look up obscure, defunct meanings to words with the ability to actually think.

[palani]

I'm certain that you're confusing your ability to look up obscure, defunct meanings to words with the ability to actually think.

I'm certain you believe your "theories" to be liberally formulated and modern. Think again:


John at Stile, a sturdie vagrant beggar, of lowe personage, red-hayred, and having the naile of his right Thomb clouẽ , was the sixt day of April in the fortie & one yeare of the Raigne of our soveraigne Ladie Queene Elizabeth openly whipped at Dale in the said Countie, for a wandring Rogue, according to the Lawe: and is assigned to passe forthwith from parish to parish by the officers thereof, the next straight way to Sale in the

191 CAP 7.
The 2. Booke.
By Statutes

The Countie of Middlesex, where (as hee confesseth) hee was borne (or dwelled last by one whole yeare &c. if the case be such) and he is limited to be at Sale aforesaid, within tenne daies now next ensuing, at his perill.

Welcome to the bleake ages.

[palani]

That coin is exactly what I was thinking about. The indigenous peoples would be considered vagrant according to our western tradition yet they would not need for money or charity if they were living according to their tradition.

In case you have not seen one it is called a Sacajawea dollar, minted to honor the indian wench who accompanied Lewis and Clark in the first expedition across the north american continent.

A few years back a central american country ran into some fiscal trouble. The U.S. assisted them by shipping 15 million or so of these coins. The natives thought it was great. The americans were honoring a woman who looked just like them. The coins proved to be so popular they began to be struck in Columbia.

[Hatha Sunahara]

In case you have not seen one it is called a Sacajawea dollar, minted to honor the indian wench who accompanied Lewis and Clark in the first expedition across the north american continent.

A few years back a central american country ran into some fiscal trouble. The U.S. assisted them by shipping 15 million or so of these coins. The natives thought it was great. The americans were honoring a woman who looked just like them. The coins proved to be so popular they began to be struck in Columbia.

Yes, Colombian countefeiters made them and passed them off in Ecuador where people aren't familiar with US coins.

Hatha

[Book]

http://www.dinaview.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/roma_arrest.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11020429

http://www.graphicsgrotto.com/emoticons/rolleyes/images/emrolleyes11.gif almost as bad as jews

[Libertytree]

Your post is BULLSHIT Booky. The pic is very misleading and not even connected with the link and the article is from 2010, not to mention that we're not talking about a circumstance within the US but one of illegal immigration within Europe.

"almost as bad as jews"....you're worse than most jews, you're a total waste of fucking skin, not even lampshade worthy.