Gun & Technique for making Someone Drop their Gun without Killing them

[gunDriller]

I'm wondering if some guns are particularly good for making an armed intruder drop their gun.

Basically, dis-arming them without killing them.

What would you do if you saw an armed intruder on your home, and for whatever reason wanted to delay a shoot-to-kill moment - yet obviously following through on the need to dis-arm them ?

.22 in the hand ? Bigger caliber in the knee ?

If not the hand or the knee, what would you shoot at ? .22 in the nuts ?

[Spectrism]

Many ways to answer that. ARMED intruder means they are willing and able to use deadly force on occupants. To me, that spells instant death penalty. I don't want that bastard back on the street.

If it is someone who broke in to steal, what I do depends on how they react. If they try to run, I will take them down with anything but a firearm. No threat of deadly force from them and they will be accorded a thrashing short of deadly force. If they attack, they get the deadly force. If they threaten deadly force in the future verbally, they will not get that chance.

You might also want to consider how much bleeding a wound will cause. Would you want to clean up a gallon of blood and splattered brains in your house?

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xP2uNILlUkw

[Heimdhal]

ugh............



I would get the best gun for the job and I would shoot them dead.

Im sorry, but everyone needs to quit being a fucking pussy. If there is an ARMED INTRUDER in your home, you SHOULD ALWAYS assume the worst, that he will kill you and everyone you love. YOU are the first and last line of defense for yourself, your loved ones and your belongings, so dont fuck around with knee caps and wounds.


Tell them cops when they show up "officer, I didnt want to actualy kill him, I just wanted to hurt him, because I wasnt really scared enough to kill" and you can almost always expect a fight when you go before the grand jury and as has been seen many times, thats all it takes for a DA and the grand jury to send you to trial for attempted murder.

[NOOB]

Unless you are a world champion pistol shooter( I am assuming you were talking about shooting with a pistol) then you better aim center mass and hope for the best. When you shoot at a armed intruder you are shooting to make them stop or leave your home not to kill them. If you don't train regularly you will do good to get a hit then. The adrenalin is pumping, your confused, scared etc. It makes it a little hard on sight picture, trigger control.

Also even a center mass or headshot does not mean they will fly backwards over the couch deader than a rock. Lots of people have been shot multiple times with a handgun of major caliber and lived to tell about it. Massad Ayoob in his book the gravest extreme even says shoot them in the back. Why? You give the command "drop your weapon" they spin and fire on instinct. Your possibly hit now, also not good for trigger control.

[gunDriller]

Thanks for the replies & advice !

After I posted I realized one additional ramification - a legal one.

If someone is armed and you shoot them, you have a legitimate argument of self-defense.

If you disarm them without killing them, then realize that they are still a threat, and then you kill them - in a court (if it ever gets there), it is WAAY more dicey.


Also, there is the realization that Murphy's Law applies to firearms, too. Perhaps if you are using a scope and are very experienced, a drop-your-gun shot is realistic. Otherwise ...

[SLV^GLD]

My technique involves destroying the central nervous system to the point the assailant is no longer capable of using the gun he was holding.

It largely entails center of mass shots although should the opportunity arise more directed shots tot he head or directly to the heart are preferred.

The key is to keep hitting the target until the threat is completely neutralized while avoiding being hit yourself.

[palani]

Has anyone considered just asking?

[Spectrism]

Has anyone considered just asking?

Just asking what?

If I am confronted by a robber, I will probably attempt small talk to see if they are serious or just desperate confused people. I will ask something like: would you really shoot someone with that gun if they did not do what you say? If they tell me they would, I have full license to take them out. If they turn from their robbery and give up, I will not hurt them.

[Heimdhal]

Thanks for the replies & advice !

After I posted I realized one additional ramification - a legal one.

If someone is armed and you shoot them, you have a legitimate argument of self-defense.

If you disarm them without killing them, then realize that they are still a threat, and then you kill them - in a court (if it ever gets there), it is WAAY more dicey.


Also, there is the realization that Murphy's Law applies to firearms, too. Perhaps if you are using a scope and are very experienced, a drop-your-gun shot is realistic. Otherwise ...

I cant speak for your state, as it varies from state to state, but in my state (Florida) if ANYONE is an uninvited intruder, armed or not, deadly force may be used without question. Once they cross your threshold, the law considers them to have the intent of causing great bodily harm and/or death. Its open and shut.

If you shoot them, and they drop the gun, but continue to attack or act in a threatening manner, you may continue to engage them with lethal force. Now, if htey are laying on the ground crying and saying "I give up", then no, you arent covered to keep shooting them.


When its 3 in the morning, and you've got a guy in your house, with a gun/knife/baseball/grandmas urn and he is 10 feet away, your scopes focal plane wont even adjust. Using a scoped gun in inside the house distances is a sure way to make sure you dont hit shit. Besides, the only thing you're likley to actualy scope is a carbine or rifle, and they are just silly to use for home defense in most cases.

Put your front sight in the middle of the blob of a person you see (center of mass) and distrupt vital organ function. If you're lucky, you may get a CNS (central nervous system) hit and they will drop like a sac of potatoes.

I am here to tell you, do NOT count on that happening. If it does, great, you got lucky, threats down. It likley will NOT happen, especialy with a hand gun.

Many people have been killed while trying to down talk their robber/assailant. You can talk all day long, but nothing speaks louder than looking down the barrel of a gun.

I dont mean to sound cold and murderous. I'd rather NOT harm anyone. But if they are in my house, around my wife, my kids, my mother, myself and my shit, they fucked up and its on them.

[undgrd]

Heimdhal offers GREAT advice!

[gunDriller]

i'm grateful for the advice !

it's not like i can call 9-11 and ask these kinds of questions. "Uh ... officer ... "

[Heimdhal]

i'm grateful for the advice !

it's not like i can call 9-11 and ask these kinds of questions. "Uh ... officer ... "

Dont ask a cop about the law, ask a Judge. You can call your state Attorney General for clarification for free as well, but the best thing you can do is to read the law's on the books pretaining to YOUR state and then read cases involving those laws to see what the outcomes were.

I'll admit, Florida is pretty easy. We have a very cut and dry self defense law called the "Affirmitive Self Defense Act" or the "stand your ground" as the common folk call it. Some states are not so cut and dry, some states still require you "attempt" to retreat even from your house before using lethal force. Some states make it even more difficult than that.

[undgrd]

Ask Mr. Zimmerman how the cut and dry "Affirmitive Self Defense Act" law is working out for him.

[Heimdhal]

Ask Mr. Zimmerman how the cut and dry "Affirmitive Self Defense Act" law is working out for him.

It worked very well until the media and black groups started seeing $$$ signs. Remember, he was investigated and set free a month before he was re-arrested after political pressure caused the Govenor to pander to minorities and bring a special prosecuter that was hell bent on getting blood.

Also, if it turns out the Zimmerman actualy HAD persued Martin, then he is NOT covered by the law since you cant claim self defense if you were the aggressor. Remember, that is originaly why he was re-arrested, but as it seems now, that may not have been the case.

His case is NOT a good example of our law since he is being used as a poltical and social engineering pawn.

[Heimdhal]

It worked very well until the media and black groups started seeing $$$ signs. Remember, he was investigated and set free a month before he was re-arrested after political pressure caused the Govenor to pander to minorities and bring a special prosecuter that was hell bent on getting blood.

Also, if it turns out the Zimmerman actualy HAD persued Martin, then he is NOT covered by the law since you cant claim self defense if you were the aggressor. Remember, that is originaly why he was re-arrested, but as it seems now, that may not have been the case.

His case is NOT a good example of our law since he is being used as a poltical and social engineering pawn.


ANd actualy, to further expand on that.

There is a gentlemen I wam aquainted with named Corey Rose, a guy I know from a shooting club we belong to. Corey was recently involved in a shooting a few weeks after Zimmerman in the same area.

Corey heard a man threatening people and being loud in the parking lot of his apartments. he went downstairs to see what was up, got into a verbal fight with the guy telling him to fuck off and stop threatening people. When Corey turned around, he was pistol whipped in the back of the head.

he turned around, drew his gun and fired a shot into the guy when bystanders warned him the guy was getting ready to shoot. This is totaly covered under the self defense law (he was CCW without a "permit" which is a whole other argument, but none the less).

Then, the assailant with a hole in his stomach ran and hid behind a car. Corey, being hoped up on adrenaline, worked his way around the car and shot the guy 6 more times while he was laying on the ground and bleeding.

Corey Rose is now being charged with first-degree attempted murder and has been bared from using "Stand your ground". Why? Because after he started chasing the guy, he couldnt say he was "in fear for his life or great bodily harm". Then he kept shooting a guy who was no longer a threat, as he was laying on the ground bleeding.


The guy he shot was the worst scum of the earth, but it doesnt matter.

[Heimdhal]

Oh yeah, he was using an xd-45. I know because guess who made him the holster.......

[undgrd]

My tongue was FIRMLY planted in my cheek when I made that comment. Sorry to hear about your friend.

[Awoke]

Sorry to hear about your friend from the range.

I am a soft hearted guy. I have had this arguement with Hiemdhal before, and I am one of the guys that would shoot at the knees, and least once. If the assailant didn't drop or at least stop, then I would go with body mass shots.

This of course would only happen in my imagination, because the queen has removed the right to carry as a Canadian, and all our guns are locked up for "safe" storage. LOL.
(So considerate of our nanny state.)

[gunDriller]

i would guess that many firearms instructors start classes by telling students to "forget all that shit you learned from watching Hollywood movies."


speaking of which - you know how spaghetti Westerns show the "showdown at high noon" where the combatants draw their guns and shoot - without aiming through the gun-sights ? how many gun experts can make THAT shot ?


getting back to the subject of home defense - i can see a strong argument here for using a noise-suppressor. if i am in that position, i want the involvement of police to be MY choice - not my neighbors.

my neighbors are 100+ yards away.

using a noise suppressor, if i am careful to shoot not in the direction of any neighbor's house, what is the largest caliber you can use without "waking up the neighbors" ? i.e., i don't want them calling the police if i use a firearm.

[Heimdhal]

i would guess that many firearms instructors start classes by telling students to "forget all that shit you learned from watching Hollywood movies."


speaking of which - you know how spaghetti Westerns show the "showdown at high noon" where the combatants draw their guns and shoot - without aiming through the gun-sights ? how many gun experts can make THAT shot ?


getting back to the subject of home defense - i can see a strong argument here for using a noise-suppressor. if i am in that position, i want the involvement of police to be MY choice - not my neighbors.

my neighbors are 100+ yards away.

using a noise suppressor, if i am careful to shoot not in the direction of any neighbor's house, what is the largest caliber you can use without "waking up the neighbors" ? i.e., i don't want them calling the police if i use a firearm.

.................................................. ...................... . . ..... .......

at 100 yards, chances are htey arent going to hear anything significant anyways, especialy from a pistol.

any number of combinations of ammo and supressors can be used to get a desired result. Obviously Rifles and Shotguns can only be quieted so much. It all depends on what model supressor you get and what kind of sub sonic ammo you use.


I think you're over thinking this all a bit too much.

[Horn]

using a noise suppressor, if i am careful to shoot not in the direction of any neighbor's house, what is the largest caliber you can use without "waking up the neighbors" ? i.e., i don't want them calling the police if i use a firearm.

Something to be said for this. when I went to CCW class there in L.V. I had a fairly savy instructor.

2 points I always remember from his class.

1. Don't pull the trigger without expecting something lethal coming out of the other end.

2. If it comes down to using your firearm indoors without ear protection, prepare to be shocked if not deafened by the noise.

Was funny during the testing phase at the indoors range there was a person (not in the class) using a .40SW at the end of the line.

When the results came in from the test, the results were amazing...

Sure enough as the target papers down the line of testers got closer to the guy with .40SW the groups became more spread out. The sound of the pistol was enough to distract the fully ear protected testers.

[Heimdhal]

Something to be said for this. when I went to CCW class there in L.V. I had a fairly savy instructor.

2 points I always remember from his class.

1. Don't pull the trigger without expecting something lethal coming out of the other end.

2. If it comes down to using your firearm indoors without ear protection, prepare to be shocked if not deafened by the noise.

Was funny during the testing phase at the indoors range there was a person (not in the class) using a .40SW at the end of the line.

When the results came in from the test, the results were amazing...

Sure enough as the target papers down the line of testers got closer to the guy with .40SW the groups became more spread out. The sound of the pistol was enough to distract the fully ear protected testers.

Having been indoors more times than I'd like where a gun went off without ear protection, including rifles, shotguns and pistols...


You can almost be sure you will lose your hearing for a period of time. AFter the second or so shot, your brain begins to shut down its auditory processing centers so everything sounds very muted.

Rifles are actualy, in my experience, the worst. They have more of a crack than a boom and of course the ammo is traveling far above the sound barrier so they make their own mini sonic boom, which is what causes the pain. Its not fun.

[Horn]

He added something to that line as to the effect of his police buddy he knew getting into a firefight inside a cement block building once & coming away with permanent ear damage.

[Heimdhal]

He added something to that line as to the effect of his police buddy he knew getting into a firefight inside a cement block building once & coming away with permanent ear damage.

Oh yeah. Theres been lots of cases of people firing in cars and going deaf in one shot. It really only takes one shot for permanent damage. I have permanent damage in my ears from it (and other things).

[Horn]

Oh yeah. Theres been lots of cases of people firing in cars and going deaf in one shot. It really only takes one shot for permanent damage. I have permanent damage in my ears from it (and other things).

I can't help it Heimdhal, the dude at the end is you :)

Same here tinitus in one ear.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkTt9k4Y-a8

[BrewTech]

2. If it comes down to using your firearm indoors without ear protection, prepare to be shocked if not deafened by the noise.

I was at an indoor range by myself once, and thought it would be fun to see how loud my Tech-9 would sound with my earplugs out.

I found out!

(Don't do that)

[old steel]

I'm wondering if some guns are particularly good for making an armed intruder drop their gun.

Basically, dis-arming them without killing them.

What would you do if you saw an armed intruder on your home, and for whatever reason wanted to delay a shoot-to-kill moment - yet obviously following through on the need to dis-arm them ?

.22 in the hand ? Bigger caliber in the knee ?

If not the hand or the knee, what would you shoot at ? .22 in the nuts ?

What if the intruder is female?

[old steel]

Oh and when you are dealing with an intruder inside remember most firearms will go through walls very easily and could maim or kill a loved one in another room.

[Awoke]

That is why I maintain that a shotgun with #4 shot is the best for home defense.

[Twisted Titan]

Having been indoors more times than I'd like where a gun went off without ear protection, including rifles, shotguns and pistols...


You can almost be sure you will lose your hearing for a period of time. AFter the second or so shot, your brain begins to shut down its auditory processing centers so everything sounds very muted.

Rifles are actualy, in my experience, the worst. They have more of a crack than a boom and of course the ammo is traveling far above the sound barrier so they make their own mini sonic boom, which is what causes the pain. Its not fun.


Good to know............ so in the heat of the moment it pretty hard to imagine one being focused enough to pull of a tripple tap to center mass

[Heimdhal]

Good to know............ so in the heat of the moment it pretty hard to imagine one being focused enough to pull of a tripple tap to center mass

Its all about the muscle memory. THe first muscles you need to focus on training is your respritory and circulatory. I dont mean become a zen master of your heart beat, but focus on keeping them calm and consistent. Breath in, breath out, breath in, breath out. If you allow your breathing and heart rate to remain erratic after a confrontation, it will degrade all other skills and force you body into a "flight mode" instead of a fight. Basicaly, you psych yourself out.


Once you can become relativley calm, your body will do what you trained it to do. If you havent trained it to do anything, it will remain in a frantic state and you'll likley wind up mashing the trigger a bunch of times, sending bullets into the target and all over every where else as well.

You want good shot placement, but you dont have to be a sniper. A hand-sized spread in the chest are is considered a combat effective group: Massive trauma to a large area covering vital organs. Interrupt as many bodily functions as possible over a good sized area.

Practice triple taps if you like, center torso. When you are doing with the triple tap set, get in the habbit of keeping the barrel on your target, look around your area for other "threats" and (re)enganging anything you might need. Threats down? Reload with a fresh mag.

Thats just the basics anyways ;)

[Awoke]

I think the "Magpul: Art of the dynamic Handgun" DVD is an amazing piece of instructional video.

I think anyone who ever wants to shoot a handgun should watch it, personally.