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Black Blade
26th June 2012, 12:14 PM
Firearms and Ammo as an Investment

Lately my stocks have been hit as energy and precious metals have fallen. While I wait for the market to find a bottom which may be a while yet (until after the 2012 election and clarity on "Taxmageddon"), I will be buying only hard assets and no stocks (in fact I may beselling ahead of Taxmageddon). The best deals so far look to be hard assets like firearms and ammo. Even so, finding the deals and the type of firearms and breed of ammo in my "prepper"-"survivalist" gun culture is not as easy as it seems. The value of my firearms and ammo holdings have nearly doubled in the last few months while commodities and stocks have taken some huge hits.

What firearms to buy?

Most of my firearms have increased in value while my stocks have declined. I would think that now the CZ-82 would be a decent longterm investment (have already increased about $50 since last year on average). Most any decent WASR has increased by about $100+ over the last year. As for current offerings I would think that the Polish milled reciever is a bargain and should increase significantly over the next few years. Heck, even my Argentine Sistema, Ballester-Molina and Mauser firearms have increased quite a bit over the last couple years. I can remember EG Makarovs originally for about $150 now selling for well over $400 each. Then there are the SVD and NDM-86 Dragunovs selling for several times the original purchase price (never mind the PSL has gone up as well although gone from vendors sites). Heck, even Belgian, Argy, Brazilian, etc. FALs have soared and a HK91? Forget it!!!! - those have skyrocketed higher as well. And I haven't even got to the antiques and high end collectables like Winchester lever actions, Sharps, Colt Pythons, etc.

Currently I am just buying cases of "cheap" milsurp ammo and occasionally mags and maybe a decent firearm here and there (lately a couple Polish milled AK variants). Actually did buy a couple Colt M4 6940 carbines and a semiauto Stoeger 12 ga for a nephew (for bird season), but as for "collectables" and "investment" purposes I think cheap bulk milsurp ammo, the 1960 milled Polish and Belgian High Power LE/military trade ins are highest on my buy list at this time. That's not to say that there aren't other bargains out there. I just haven't found them yet.

Well, as a slight update - I bought the last of the available Polish 1960 AK-47 rifles offerred online. These are well worth it as they are "milled" AKs for around $600 each. There may be some showing up eventually but not likely this cheap. Other milled AK-47 rifles tend to be a couple hundred to several hundred dollars more expensive.

I can also buy kits and build my own AR-15 and AK-47 variant rifles cheap and have an instant profit (on paper at least). I can alos take old war rifles that are on their last legs and refurbish them and "sporterize" those into decent hunting rifles. I know, I know - the purists are foaming at the mouth. I'm not talking about Museum quality rifles here, these are scraps that can be cobbled together and given a new lease on life. I have given away most of these to family and friends over the years. Most of which have gone to those who simply can't afford a new Remmington or Weatherby hunting rifle. Still, they would have some value in an investment sense.

What Ammo to Buy?

Well that is a good question as prices have already doubled and tripled or more in some cases. I have been buying up cheap 9x18mm for my makarov calibre handguns. Occasionally I find some deals on 9x19mm and .45 ACP as well. Handgun ammo isn't much of a problem right now. I have been concentrating on cases of "orphan" calibres like the Sant Barbara milsurp 9x23mm Largo for my Spanish handguns.

I have noticed that shotgun shells in my area are running short except some trap loads and pheasant loads. I really should pick up a few cases of Federal 6 shot and some 10 gauge ammo for my hunting needs. I have plenty of 00 buckshot shells for up close and personal defense ammo but my needs are more for hunting and the shortage of some size shot may be a decent investment of sorts but not like it is for handguns and rifles.

When it comes to rifles I have been buying mostly cases of cheap milsurp 5.45x39mm, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x54Rmm ammo. I have also been buying steel cased .223/5.56 and 7.62x39 ammo for shooting and stiockpiling now that most brass-cased surplus has dried up of become ridiculously expensive. Ditto with 7.62x51 NATO (.308 Winchester). There is some Korean 30.06 milsurp coming into the US now along with some old US Garands but I haven't heard much about the quality yet from new reviews.

Orphans? I have a few cases of milsurp "orphan" and somewhat rare ammo. First are the "orphans" like the 9x23mm Largo pistol ammo. It is similar to the .38 Super and in some guns can fire without too much of a problem in the same .38 Super handgun (tho strongly not recommended). I shoot this ammo in my Star Modelo Supers. I also have Chilean milsurp 7x57mm for my 7mm Mausers. Not great stuff but good enough for range ammo, same applies to the milsurp 6.5x55mm Swedish mauser ammo in battlepacks that seem to be unobtanium right now. Same with 7.62x51 German DAG and Brit Radway ammo. That said, I have been adding Yugo milsurp 7.92x57 (8mm Mauser) sniper ammo for my M76 rifles as it is harder to find and getting more expensive all the time (fortunately the bulk of mine was bought at about a third the current price).

Conclusion

Considering that the global economy is in the crapper and stock markets will plunge further - at least until the elections and depending on whether or not "Taxmageddon" can be avoided, I will keep buying these hard assets and avoid paper for the time being (or most any investment with a "paper trail"). Not only do I get to enjoy the "gun collecting" hobby and various gun sports, but I also get to protect my investments from a fickle market that is being run over by Wall Street traders who are essentially milking the wealth out of middle America. I just won't play that game - right now the Stock Markets are just casinos and the odds are in the "House's" favor. Should Barack Obama be reelected we will see a massive surge in guns and ammo buying with the expectation that a lame-duck President Obama will have no constraints of a third term to keep him from his antigun agenda. Getting in now means currently owned guns and ammo would be "grandfathered" in and worth their weight in gold (so to speak).

- Black Blade


Charts:

http://cdn4.ammo.net/media/images/infographics/Are-Guns-Ammo-New-Gold-Part-1.jpg

http://cdn1.ammo.net/media/images/infographics/Are-Guns-Ammo-New-Gold-Part-2.jpg

freespirit
26th June 2012, 01:07 PM
very interesting thread, Black Blade...

when i first read the title, i thought you were talking about investing in firearms & ammunition companies...which imo, would be an excellent investment, simply because even if they outlaw sales to the GP, the military and leo's will still be requisitioning them like crazy.

i like your take on how you view your own collection (from an investment standpoint, albeit it one that has many tangible benefits aside from cash value). however, do you not feel that the cash value of components and restored/repurposed rifles, etc. will eventually hit a ceiling? otherwise they would simply price themselves out of the average guys' hands, right?

how does your investment plan stand up to those possibilities?

(..you've really got me thinking about this...)
:)

Black Blade
26th June 2012, 01:22 PM
very interesting thread, Black Blade...

when i first read the title, i thought you were talking about investing in firearms & ammunition companies...which imo, would be an excellent investment, simply because even if they outlaw sales to the GP, the military and leo's will still be requisitioning them like crazy.

i like your take on how you view your own collection (from an investment standpoint, albeit it one that has many tangible benefits aside from cash value). however, do you not feel that the cash value of components and restored/repurposed rifles, etc. will eventually hit a ceiling? otherwise they would simply price themselves out of the average guys' hands, right?

how does your investment plan stand up to those possibilities?

(..you've really got me thinking about this...)
:)

Like any investment the value can rise or fall. However, these are "hard assets" like precious metals and won't vaporize with the stock market when it collapses. But I do get to use these firearms as well. As for ammo I have a bit stocked away in several BOL around the west. That said, I have noticed that my collection has increased in value while my stock portfolio has retreated somewhat.

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/d4436be217f4dd9ec0dbd5dcb1ded7404825ede5_r.jpg http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/a043626c100adaeecec0d45ab2fbdaaea6de93dc_r.jpg http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/f803644715aadd22c480d7abbd1dd010d8e285ea_r.jpg

Ammo storage at BOL-2

freespirit
26th June 2012, 01:32 PM
very nice, Black Blade!

we should all be so well prepared!

...your right, they wont vaporize like the paper investments will, but in SHTF situations, how are you prepared to revalue your assets? do you have a rough idea like, say one box of mil/surp ammo is worth X-number of what, or would that be of any real significance once we get into a full blown SHTF scenario?

Black Blade
26th June 2012, 02:47 PM
very nice, Black Blade!

we should all be so well prepared!

...your right, they wont vaporize like the paper investments will, but in SHTF situations, how are you prepared to revalue your assets? do you have a rough idea like, say one box of mil/surp ammo is worth X-number of what, or would that be of any real significance once we get into a full blown SHTF scenario?

Actually I got firearms and ammo for myself and (extended) family. I bought while "cheap" and still buy with an eye toward getting ahead of inflation. Also, milsurp will dry up as have several other calibres in the past. I have cases of milsurp 7.65x53mm (Argentine Mauser) ammo that is nonobtanium anymore. I also have a few Argentine Mausers (some sporterized) that serve as excellent hunting rifles. My philosophy with ammo is "Buy it cheap and stack it deep". Prices have and are going higher. My goal is to have "two lifetime supplies" of ammo just in case we see more gun control in the future. It would only take a stroke of the pen for an executive order making it illegal to import more milsurp ammo. Once in possession and cached away it is no problem however.

http://images.yuku.com/image/pjpeg/a94264e176aab25e1143f894a47274a36c81e585.pjpg http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/44b265f164d93c1cd80b03d1d5de545da61eb2ab_r.jpg

D sciple
26th June 2012, 03:16 PM
This guns and ammo as an investment idea seems pretty genius imo.

osoab
26th June 2012, 03:39 PM
This guns and ammo as an investment idea seems pretty genius imo.


The genius part was prior to 2007/2008. Pre-Obummer.

Awoke
29th June 2012, 11:08 AM
BlackBlade, I have always loved your threads.

What do you do for a living, to be able to afford to buy that much stuff ??? ??

I am way ahead of most people I know for preps, and I might have 1/20th of what you have stacked if I'm lucky.

Black Blade
2nd July 2012, 08:59 AM
I'm a contract geologist. I'm working the Bakken Oil Patch in North Dakota now but work globally for different companies. Used to work mostly precious and base metals exploration work but have been primarily oil and gas for the last 12 years now. Good money but it's a boom-bust cyclic business. During periods of no work I usually hunt and fish or just travel while waiting for the next boom cycle. Going shooting a new "milled reciever" 1960 Polish AK later today.

Heimdhal
2nd July 2012, 10:51 AM
BB,


get some pics of the milled polish in action! Thats no cheap ak ;)

Awoke
2nd July 2012, 06:41 PM
I'm a contract geologist. I'm working the Bakken Oil Patch in North Dakota now but work globally for different companies. Used to work mostly precious and base metals exploration work but have been primarily oil and gas for the last 12 years now. Good money but it's a boom-bust cyclic business. During periods of no work I usually hunt and fish or just travel while waiting for the next boom cycle. Going shooting a new "milled reciever" 1960 Polish AK later today.

...living the dream man...

Twisted Titan
2nd July 2012, 09:27 PM
Taggggggg

Black Blade
3rd July 2012, 01:21 PM
BB,


get some pics of the milled polish in action! Thats no cheap ak ;)

I added a post with the 1960 polish. I shot a case of orange round clays because I went out into the "lava beds" in Idaho to shoot before traveling on to a cache site and a secondary BOL to add more supplies.

Here are a couple pics tho:

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/22d26811bad18c12d70b9eda8db58b461852d7fd_r.jpg http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/43b265d107d44cf1d5bbf3d5c2ce3e4459df1242_r.jpg

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/cf716d1bdbccdcb2dd328342feb388d18ca8b504_r.jpg http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/fef3676716c7d538ccb7da8ebcbad23d441a2458_r.jpg

Probably my "new" favorite AK (at least until the next one).

- Black Blade

http://peakoilpetroleumandpreciousmetals.yuku.com/topic/4882/Survive-and-thrive

Twisted Titan
3rd July 2012, 01:51 PM
i was strongly considering going to the Bakken region to find electrical work in the man camps ..............


i remember when every media outlet was talking about the region...... how is it out there now since the buzz has died down a bit??

Heimdhal
3rd July 2012, 01:58 PM
I like it BB. What ammo were you shooting and how was it doing?

Black Blade
3rd July 2012, 02:01 PM
i was strongly considering going to the Bakken region to find electrical work in the man camps ..............


i remember when every media outlet was talking about the region...... how is it out there now since the buzz has died down a bit??

They had a job fair a couple weeks ago in Williston at the college and the place was crawling. People came in on Amtrack and by bus, and trucks and cars from all across the country. No place to live unless you can find a man camp, rv park or stay on site at the rig. It's crazy busy - boom town crazy. They can't build houses and apartments fast enough. No decent restaurants because the oil biz pays a lot more and the workers head for the fields. They can't even keep cops because once they hire some they quit to make more money. I went to the clinic to get checked out because there aren't enough doctors and the next avaiable appointment is late September (if you find a doctor taking new patients). Other than that, there's big bux to be made.

- Black Blade

old steel
5th July 2012, 11:17 AM
Wow very nice BB. Great setup you have going. Lets hope Yellowstone doesn't blow up, eh?

Wish AK's were obtainable up here but our fucked up gun laws are so ridiculous thanks to the political process and so many idiots in politics who don't know shit from wild honey.

My SKS does everything an AK will do but the AK is prohibited and the SKS is non restricted, don't even have to register it with the government anymore.

That's how big the fools are up here.

Keep us updated.

horseshoe3
5th July 2012, 11:28 AM
Wow very nice BB. Great setup you have going. Lets hope Yellowstone doesn't blow up, eh?

Wish AK's were obtainable up here but our fucked up gun laws are so ridiculous thanks to the political process and so many idiots in politics who don't know shit from wild honey.

My SKS does everything an AK will do but the AK is prohibited and the SKS is non restricted, don't even have to register it with the government anymore.

That's how big the fools are up here.

Keep us updated.

But you guys can have Norinco m14s. The most gun for the least money anywhere.

old steel
5th July 2012, 11:33 AM
But you guys can have Norinco m14s. The most gun for the least money anywhere.

Yup i love the short barreled ones at 18.5 inches very maneuverable. Recoil is very manageable too.

At $449.00 very affordable too compared to buying a Springfield M1A for $2000.00+

Canadaammo had a sale where you bought one along with a crate of Norinco 7.62x51 ammo on the cheap.

Great deal!

https://www.canadaammo.com/

Awoke
5th July 2012, 11:43 AM
I believe that ammo was non-corrosive too, if memory serves...

horseshoe3
5th July 2012, 11:44 AM
It would be a shame if a Canadian brought a few along on a fishing trip to the States and lostthem in a boating accident.

Awoke
5th July 2012, 11:46 AM
I feel the same way about AK47s, my friend.

horseshoe3
5th July 2012, 11:47 AM
At $449.00 very affordable too compared to buying a Springfield M1A for $2000.00+

https://www.canadaammo.com/

And it has a forged receiver instead of a cast one like the SA.

old steel
5th July 2012, 12:26 PM
I believe that ammo was non-corrosive too, if memory serves...

Yup.

NORINCO 7.62X51 M80 NATO Ball Cartridges

145 Grain FMJ

Berdan-Primed, Bimetal Copper/Steel-cased, NON-CORROSIVE