Honest questions about cops

[slowbell]

There seems to be a dominant opinion on this forum that cops are not needed, oppressing NWO pigs, and nobody here seems to think they add any value to society at all. But, rather they are hellbent to take our freedoms away.

I have a couple of questions on this mentality, and a couple of thoughts too..

1) If there were no cops at all, what do you think our cities would look like? Furthermore, even if you don't live anywhere near a city...would you be happy to see our great American cities burn in complete chaos and destruction?

2) Regarding cops not helping people. I've posted before about this, my question is, do you think that cops help people when people are not looking? Or rather, see that help.

For example, one time when patrolling our beat, we just happened to roll up on two guys breaking into a car. We arrested these guys, crime in progress, and even the two criminals admitted that it was not their car, and in a statement that they were breaking into it. (who said criminals were smart). Case closed. However, our beat was so busy at the time, we didn't even alert the owner of the car. The car was still locked, it was late at night. Also, there was no visible damage to the car, we saw the crime happening, we just took the guys in, took statements, wrote the report.

Now, the owner probably never knew his car was being broken into. He probably just woke up the next morning, with a cup of coffee, and drove to work and it was just a normal day. Who knows.

My point, is that while I agree that there needs to be checks and balances in place to prevent corrupt police work, and I agree, it's important for people to know when true oppression is happening. I also think, there's an agenda to divide the citizens of our nation, and cops, and put them against each other.

Instead of cops and people working together, to fight crime, to uphold our freedoms and constitution, there's an agenda to divide and conquer. My thoughts, which is why I try to keep an open mind with any news media report. To see the truth, and not be blinded by fear or hatred towards police.

[Uncle Salty]

Truth is, we would be fucked as a society without cops. Murders, rapes, crimes, and such would be rampant...for a while. Eventually neighborhood watches and locals would form their own system of protection and justice. We would have warloads and street gangs and mercenaries eventually filling the roles the cops previously had.

[Skirnir_]

Your verbiage is interesting. I do not own a city, nor likely do you, so from whence comes "our cities" and "our great (HAH!) American cities"? Furthermore, your juxtaposing your first question with the second seems to imply a connection between "no cops and all" and "chaos and destruction".

In reply to your questions:

1) With no cops at all, security would be taken on by the private sector, and would thus be more responsive and less costly on a net basis. As for cities: not my problem.
2) I am sure of the million or so cops in this country, at least one has helped someone within the last twenty-four hours when someone else was not looking.

My distrust of cops arises from numerous sources -
a) that they wield almost unlimited power in practice,
b) that they are nigh unaccountable due to closing ranks e.g. 'thin blue line', a lack of 'civilian' oversight, and jury bias,
c) that resisting them, even if they act unlawfully, allows them to perpetrate violence that they often inflict disproportionately, &
d) that steroid use among cops has behavioural ramifications.
e) There is also the matter of pre-existing cultural bias.

The subsequent saccharine rhetoric is not worthy of address. Playing on predispositions by hinting at agendas and pandering to unity and truth may fool some people, but not all of them.

[Twisted Titan]

If there was no cops or central issuing authority people would have to be responsible for their own actions and safety.

Would there be chaos in some areas?

Yes it would but word would spread and those areas would be avoided for lack of safety and they'd eventually collapse in on themselves as anyone with sense will not support such areas or people.


Couple this with the fact that if people were armed and had the ability to protect their person property and loved ones with lethal force . I am of the opinion that a society would emerge that has common sense principles on daily living and dealing with people.

Not a perfect society( because there has never been one in the history of the world ) but a functioning one none the less.

[slowbell]

1) With no cops at all, security would be taken on by the private sector, and would thus be more responsive and less costly on a net basis. As for cities: not my problem.
2) I am sure of the million or so cops in this country, at least one has helped someone within the last twenty-four hours when someone else was not looking.

Fair enough, Skirnir. My response to your answers...

1) As a citizen who was once proud of our nation, yes our nation, in a patriotic sense, I care enough about 'our' cities to want to see their well being. Same with our country as a whole. The 'not my problem' mentality is what is going to bring our country to it's knees eventually.

2) You proved my point that nobody sees the good things cops do. A million cops, every day, do things such as the example I posted, but it is not recognized at all. This is by design, imo. Not playing on any predispositions, but we talk a lot about agendas on this forum. I thought my questions and thoughts on the subject a direct one, not one to fool others. Honest questions.

[Publico]

If there were no cops the cities would be overflowing with donuts.

[slowbell]

If there was no.cops or central issuing authority people would have to be responsible for their our actions and safety.

Would there be chaos in some areas?

Yes but word would spread those areas are to be avoided for lack of safety and they would eventually collapse in on themself as anyone with sense will not support such areas and people.


Couple this with the fact that if people were armed and had the abilty to protect their person property and loved ones with lethal force . I am of the opinion that a society would emerge that has common sense principles on daily living and dealing with people.

Not a perfect society( there has never been one) but a functioning one.

Good points TT. However, consider that a cops job in society is to essentially take out the trash, and deal with the bad element, so that folks don't have to. Most folks just want to be left alone, go to their jobs, and sleep at night without worrying about their property and family. Therefore, folks pay their taxes, to pay the police to do the job they would rather not do.

In your example, there would be extreme Darwinism. The strong would survive, the weak would die off. I agree it could be a functioning system, but a very tough world to live in for most folks.

[Skirnir_]

There's a sucker born every minute
-PT Barnum

[slowbell]

There's a sucker born every minute
-PT Barnum

I agree. No point in discussing the topic of this thread with one either.

[Ares]

Good points TT. However, consider that a cops job in society is to essentially take out the trash, and deal with the bad element, so that folks don't have to. Most folks just want to be left alone, go to their jobs, and sleep at night without worrying about their property and family. Therefore, folks pay their taxes, to pay the police to do the job they would rather not do.

In your example, there would be extreme Darwinism. The strong would survive, the weak would die off. I agree it could be a functioning system, but a very tough world to live in for most folks.

And how is that different for any other specie on this planet?

How or why is it my responsibility to provide for a police (Policy) officer's livelihood to use his tools and judgement for my own and societies oppression?

What little good they do is far outweighed by the bad they do.

[madfranks]

Do not make the assumption that without cops there would be no security. Protection and safety are things that people want, and as Skirnir said, the market would provide it. More than likely private police firms would arise and individuals, households, businesses, etc. would pay a monthly premium, much like an insurance premium, for police protection. There would be more than one police firm, and competition between them would ensure that prices were low and services were well received. Meaning, if a cop from police firm A beats down a helpless man in the street, people would cancel their policies and move to police firm B which has a reputation for treating people with kindness. Rather than the power hungry, abusive, taser happy thugs in uniforms we have today, free market police would definitely be accountable to the people they serve.

Solid, do yourself a favor and read this book, For a new Liberty by Rothbard, especially chapter 12: Police, Law and the Courts.

http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Mani festo.pdf

[midnight rambler]

Prior to the War of Northern Aggression/the Reconstruction Acts/the (fraudulent) 14th Amendment/incorporating the District of Columbia as a municipal corporation 'city police forces' (i.e. non-elected 'officials' aka political appointees acting as 'enforcers') were limited to only four good sized cities in the US of A. What does this tell you??

'Police forces' - a concept only collectivists love.

[Ares]

Do not make the assumption that without cops there would be no security. Protection and safety are things that people want, and as Skirnir said, the market would provide it. More than likely private police firms would arise and individuals, households, businesses, etc. would pay a monthly premium, much like an insurance premium, for police protection. There would be more than one police firm, and competition between them would ensure that prices were low and services were well received. Meaning, if a cop from police firm A beats down a helpless man in the street, people would cancel their policies and move to police firm B which has a reputation for treating people with kindness. Rather than the power hungry, abusive, taser happy thugs in uniforms we have today, free market police would definitely be accountable to the people they serve.

Solid, do yourself a favor and read this book, For a new Liberty by Rothbard, especially chapter 12: Police, Law and the Courts.

http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Mani festo.pdf


Exactly, as has been seen, if you know or are friends with people in Internal Affairs your case of tazing someone to death can be written up as "such and such did nothing wrong". With competition to put on a good face as there will be others to take over your job if you can't do it will force dignity and respect so that you can feed yourself.

[beefsteak]

There seems to be a dominant opinion on this forum that cops are not needed, oppressing NWO pigs, and nobody here seems to think they add any value to society at all. But, rather they are hellbent to take our freedoms away.


Slowbell,
while I understand your point, please understand I believe myself to be an exception to your above general characterization/label in the post up above.

While yours truly is a nobody in the overall scheme of things, I certain have received my share of castigations on this forum topic over recent years because I DO think good men and women police officers still exist and do perform a necessary role in society.

Just don't lump me in with the constant police-bashers on GS, k? Thank you kindly, and carry on.


beefsteak

[Cebu_4_2]

Lets mention that in the Philippines there are no police that I saw in a 3 week period, no cop cars etc. There are armed private guards that are in front of most stores and eateries. There is crime in seedy areas but common sense says americano don't go there. If you go to any mall they have armed guards that look through purses and packages. Unfortunately there is no open carry or concealed carry unless you are a guard or some sort of official but as poor and 3rd world as it is unless everyone had guns it wouldn't work out so well. Almost exactly the direction the JewSA is headed.

Almost forgot to mention that armored cars pick up money and stuff and that come equipped with 7-10 heavily armed private guards. They wont let you pass close so you have to cross the street to pass.

[slowbell]

Beefsteak, my apologies. I did not mean to lump everyone together into the same mindset. I apologize to others who may have took offense to the way I worded that part of the thread, as well.

It's been about 6 years since I went through academy. Back then, the emphasis on ethics, upholding the constitution, doing the 'right thing' was huge. The battery of tests we went through to prove that we conducted ourselves in an ethical and upstanding manner, few people would understand.

It baffles me how bigger and bigger the disconnect from the people and cops seems to be getting.

Madfranks, I'll give that a read. Thanks for the link.

[Cebu_4_2]

The cops of today are quite different than the cops of years ago. I have an acquaintance that is a cop, I would guess late 50s and he told me that the cops of today scare the shit out of him.

[Awoke]

Not reading all posts in this thread, just responding to post#1:

If cops would follow the rule of law and live by "Serve and Protect" the public, there would be no issues. But they don't.

Please don't make me pull up a million fucking videos of cops beating elderly women, tazing retards, sicking dogs on mothers with child, shooting handcuffed people or beating up skateboarding kids. I am so sick of this arguement I could puke.

It's totally fucking elementary:
They have turned from "Protectors" into "Oppressors". Figure it out.

[slowbell]

Please don't make me pull up a million fucking videos of cops beating elderly women, tazing retards, sicking dogs on mothers with child, shooting handcuffed people or beating up skateboarding kids. I am so sick of this arguement I could puke.

Awoke, you could find a million videos of cops doing good things too. If you wanted. Here's a neat one, a woman loses her job and boyfriend, cop grabs her before she could commit suicide.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1m7ceBmMoY

[MAGNES]

I never went after anyone here for being a cop ever.

I try to keep issues separate.

I see 2 main problems with the P lice, leadership from the top, covers everything really,
especially corruption, cover ups, police seem to care mostly about PR as they do bad.

The second main problem that comes from bad leadership is " us versus them " mentality,
the police are responsible for this, they don't see themselves as part of society, Police Vs Civilians, etc

All problems with the police are exacerbated with more corruption across the board, the future does not look good, ie, corrupt society, bad leadership from politicians, surveillance society, unjust wars, the Unjust Immoral State, NO FOURTH ESTATE, the MSM is complicit, police being targets of propaganda as well, too many young punk ignorant officers, no leaders, followers, too many third worlders in forces, I prefer to deal with the WASP COPS , etc

At some point it is better not to have any police.

Nothing is perfect, this is why we have oversight, but when everything is corrupt,
oversight does not work. We have seen major changes in short order, for worse,
matching the corruption across the board.

The Police in Non Western Countries are far worse, worth noting.

Edit and after thanks,
Some personal comments about police.
I have never been in trouble with the police, but I have had a lot of bad experiences.
I have seen and experienced enough personally.

[horseshoe3]

Truth is, we would be fucked as a society without cops. Murders, rapes, crimes, and such would be rampant...for a while.

Yes, because the only thing keeping me from raping and murdering is the cops.

[undgrd]

Once it was decided the police and prosecutors have no obligation to protect the public, game over. They're not here to protect anyone anymore. They're here to protect the states interests.

The state repays their service with a paycheck, training, retirement benefits, and a writ of prohibition so loosely defined I can't tell where they end and the criminals begin.

[Awoke]

Not only does the good NOT outweigh the bad, but in fact the good is nearly non-existent when measured against teh bad, when we discuss cops and their behaviour.

[Sparky]

Do not make the assumption that without cops there would be no security. Protection and safety are things that people want, and as Skirnir said, the market would provide it. More than likely private police firms would arise and individuals, households, businesses, etc. would pay a monthly premium, much like an insurance premium, for police protection. There would be more than one police firm, and competition between them would ensure that prices were low and services were well received. Meaning, if a cop from police firm A beats down a helpless man in the street, people would cancel their policies and move to police firm B which has a reputation for treating people with kindness. Rather than the power hungry, abusive, taser happy thugs in uniforms we have today, free market police would definitely be accountable to the people they serve.

Solid, do yourself a favor and read this book, For a new Liberty by Rothbard, especially chapter 12: Police, Law and the Courts.

http://library.mises.org/books/Murray%20N%20Rothbard/For%20a%20New%20Liberty%20The%20Libertarian%20Mani festo.pdf

Your scenario has given me a chance to think this through. The private police force would be beholden to their employers, which would be the municipality and not the citizenry. So I ask myself how this is different than the current arrangement.

Let's say a policeman beat down a helpless man now. If the people were outraged, this would be very bad politically for the policeman's employer, whether it be a mayor, city aldermen, or town selectmen. Action would be taken that would hurt the cause of the police force "competitively", in that the police chief's job status or performance review would suffer, and the individual policeman would be a risk of losing his job. These are the same market forces as it were a private enterprise. Any cover up or corruption that occurs now would offer the same financial or political dynamics and motivation if it were private. I don't see a significant difference there.

Any difference would probable arise from the union issue. But who's to say the private security force wouldn't be unionized?

I'm not denying that there is currently graft, corruption, misuse of authority, etc. I'm not convinced it wouldn't continue with a private force, because the employer remains a municipal entity (rather than a private business), which is what provides the environment for bad behavior.

[Santa]

At this point I consider it safer to pass a crack head in the street than a uniform.

[Awoke]

The private police force would be beholden to their employers, which would be the municipality and not the citizenry.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6bsUpXtYCZU/T-V5mHyo-xI/AAAAAAAAAc0/VuVD3e3G6hs/s1600/There+is+no+government.jpg

[JohnQPublic]

...Eventually neighborhood watches and locals would form their own system of protection and justice...

And thus, cops were invented.

[madfranks]

Your scenario has given me a chance to think this through. The private police force would be beholden to their employers, which would be the municipality and not the citizenry. So I ask myself how this is different than the current arrangement.

Let's say a policeman beat down a helpless man now. If the people were outraged, this would be very bad politically for the policeman's employer, whether it be a mayor, city aldermen, or town selectmen. Action would be taken that would hurt the cause of the police force "competitively", in that the police chief's job status or performance review would suffer, and the individual policeman would be a risk of losing his job. These are the same market forces as it were a private enterprise. Any cover up or corruption that occurs now would offer the same financial or political dynamics and motivation if it were private. I don't see a significant difference there.

Any difference would probable arise from the union issue. But who's to say the private security force wouldn't be unionized?

I'm not denying that there is currently graft, corruption, misuse of authority, etc. I'm not convinced it wouldn't continue with a private force, because the employer remains a municipal entity (rather than a private business), which is what provides the environment for bad behavior.

You're absolutely wrong, private police would not in the least be funded by municipalities. They would be funded by individuals, property owners, businesses, HOAs, etc., etc. In the same way as insurance policies are bought today. Your HOA might have a police insurance contract with "police firm A", so your neighborhood is protected, and you might have personal protection service in whatever quantity you want so when you're out in public if you're attacked you would receive protection.

As far as brushing under the rug the bad apples, you have to understand that if officers from "police firm A" were caught shooting into a crowd of women and children, the outlash would be from the people themselves cancelling their accounts and taking away their money. Today, their only recourse is to protest, risking themselves injury and arrest at the very same hands that caused their anger! Don't you see, the best way to put the power back into the hands of the people is for the people to DIRECTLY employ/dis-employ officers at their pleasure. If police protection was a private enterprise, those police firms that beat/torture/abuse the people would go out of business immediately!

[JohnQPublic]

One thing I noticed driving in Europe is that you really do not see cops pulling cars over then approaching vehicles with (or without) guns on their hips. I am not saying cops should not be armed, but I am saying that the state (city, whatever) is putting cops lives in danger to collect revenue. I understand some traffic control is helpful, but given the dubious state of traffic "laws" to start with, having armed police pulling over people to shaft them, then have their insurance go up, etc. seems dangerous, especially as the economy grinds to a halt and people are edgy. Just an observation.

[undgrd]

Here's the problem with privatizing police. Replace fire brigade with police department.



The first Roman fire brigade of which we have any substantial history was created by Marcus Licinius Crassus. Marcus Licinius Crassus was born into a wealthy Roman family around the year 115 BC, and acquired an enormous fortune through (in the words of Plutarch) "fire and rapine." One of his most lucrative schemes took advantage of the fact that Rome had no fire department. Crassus filled this void by creating his own brigade—500 men strong—which rushed to burning buildings at the first cry of alarm. Upon arriving at the scene, however, the fire fighters did nothing while their employer bargained over the price of their services with the distressed property owner. If Crassus could not negotiate a satisfactory price, his men simply let the structure burn to the ground, after which he offered to purchase it for a fraction of its value.

[sirgonzo420]

Here's the problem with privatizing police. Replace fire brigade with police department.



The first Roman fire brigade of which we have any substantial history was created by Marcus Licinius Crassus. Marcus Licinius Crassus was born into a wealthy Roman family around the year 115 BC, and acquired an enormous fortune through (in the words of Plutarch) "fire and rapine." One of his most lucrative schemes took advantage of the fact that Rome had no fire department. Crassus filled this void by creating his own brigade—500 men strong—which rushed to burning buildings at the first cry of alarm. Upon arriving at the scene, however, the fire fighters did nothing while their employer bargained over the price of their services with the distressed property owner. If Crassus could not negotiate a satisfactory price, his men simply let the structure burn to the ground, after which he offered to purchase it for a fraction of its value.


Competition.

Plus, if your house is on fire, you're probably already fucked and the firemen are more for putting out the fire to avoid damage to your neighbors' houses.

[slowbell]

Ungrad, also look at the history of American fire service too. In New York, it was extortion in the beginning. The fire brigades forced folks to pay them or they would let their houses burn. People had to pay for a placard to be put on their home. If the house was on fire, and the home had a placard, they would put the fire out. No placard, and the fire dept would either let the home burn, or actually go inside and loot the home. Take everything of value. Then, let it burn. It was not uncommon for two different fire brigades to show up and actually get into fights with each other over who gets to loot the home.

I tend to agree with Sparky. Magnes pointed out the 2 biggest problems with law enforcement. Privatize it, and you will still have those same problems.

I guess the question is, can you have good people doing the right thing in a corrupt environment, without them getting corrupted too.

[undgrd]

Competition.

Plus, if your house is on fire, you're probably already fucked and the firemen are more for putting out the fire to avoid damage to your neighbors' houses.


What if there are 2 private companies and they agree it's more profitable to let crime get out of control rather than do their job. They're still collecting your monthly "payment" by the way.

[sirgonzo420]

What if there are 2 private companies and they agree it's more profitable to let crime get out of control rather than do their job. They're still collecting your monthly "payment" by the way.

Not mine, I'd be the guy not subscribing to private fire services, and standing out front of my house with an AK making sure no bastard firemen came to try to set any fires.

[madfranks]

What if there are 2 private companies and they agree it's more profitable to let crime get out of control rather than do their job. They're still collecting your monthly "payment" by the way.

Then a bright investor or team of investors realizes they can make a killing by actually providing services the people want and police firm #3 is born, serving the people that the other two firms are neglecting and making tons of money in the process.

[Santa]

One thing I noticed driving in Europe is that you really do not see cops pulling cars over then approaching vehicles with (or without) guns on their hips. I am not saying cops should not be armed, but I am saying that the state (city, whatever) is putting cops lives in danger to collect revenue. I understand some traffic control is helpful, but given the dubious state of traffic "laws" to start with, having armed police pulling over people to shaft them, then have their insurance go up, etc. seems dangerous, especially as the economy grinds to a halt and people are edgy. Just an observation.

It's totally ridiculous how many cops there are out on the roads. They're everywhere.
I can count on passing 5 cop cars just going into town barely 10 miles away.

[BabushkaLady]

I agree with JQP, it's about revenue now.

A question I have seriously asked many cop acquaintances I've had:
If there is a barrel full of snakes, mostly non-poisonous, with just a few in there that are poisonous, how would I know the difference? Why would I stick my hand in that barrel?

Basically, a few have tainted the barrel and they all know which ones are poison, we don't. To me it's now just a barrel of snakes.

[Awoke]

"Firefighters" watch house burn to ground, over a $75 unpaid fee - AGAIN (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2011/12/07/9272989-firefighters-let-home-burn-over-75-fee-again?lite)

[slowbell]

Then a bright investor or team of investors realizes they can make a killing by actually providing services the people want and police firm #3 is born, serving the people that the other two firms are neglecting and making tons of money in the process.

Maybe the real solution is a volunteer police department. As an old volunteer firefighter, we all joined to help the community. No pay, no corruption and just people coming together to help the community. Perhaps, if there were volunteer cops, it would attract good people more as opposed to people who want the pay and benefits, and often the corruption that comes with it. Might not work well in the cities, but could work in the smaller communities.

[Awoke]

Maybe the real solution is a volunteer police department.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.



There is the answer. That's why it's under attack.

[Skirnir_]

Maybe the real solution is a volunteer police department. As an old volunteer firefighter, we all joined to help the community. No pay, no corruption and just people coming together to help the community. Perhaps, if there were volunteer cops, it would attract good people more as opposed to people who want the pay and benefits, and often the corruption that comes with it. Might not work well in the cities, but could work in the smaller communities.

That does not solve the matter of their having a monopoly of force, that the scent of power would attract the worst, and that they might 'supplement' their income through other means.

[madfranks]

Upon arriving at the scene, however, the fire fighters did nothing while their employer bargained over the price of their services with the distressed property owner. If Crassus could not negotiate a satisfactory price, his men simply let the structure burn to the ground, after which he offered to purchase it for a fraction of its value.

Which is why it's much more likely private protection would come in the form of insurance policies, not ala carte single service pricing. You have a fire protection policy with "fire protection firm A"? Call them instead of 911 and they'll come put the fire out. And if a person who had no fire insurance's house was burning and the private FD showed up, they could put the fire out and simply place a lien on the rescued property until payment was made. If the owner refuses to pay for services rendered, the private FD obtains some of the rescued property as compensation.

[sirgonzo420]

It's totally ridiculous how many cops there are out on the roads. They're everywhere.
I can count on passing 5 cop cars just going into town barely 10 miles away.

And those 5 cop cars were guzzling taxpayer-funded gas while being driven by welfare recipients who, as a condition of their hiring, must not have an IQ above average.

[Awoke]

And those 5 cop cars were guzzling taxpayer-funded gas while being driven by welfare recipients who, as a condition of their hiring, must not have an IQ above average.


...and to maintain employment, must issue X-number of tickets to meet their quota for victimless crimes such as speeding, jaywalking, etc.

[madfranks]

Maybe the real solution is a volunteer police department. As an old volunteer firefighter, we all joined to help the community. No pay, no corruption and just people coming together to help the community. Perhaps, if there were volunteer cops, it would attract good people more as opposed to people who want the pay and benefits, and often the corruption that comes with it. Might not work well in the cities, but could work in the smaller communities.

Here's the point: in a free market, it doesn't have to be "this" or "that", it can be all of it. Volunteer police brigades where people want it, paid protection elsewhere where people want it. All voluntary, no coercion whatsoever. You want to volunteer to patrol your neighborhood? Great. You want to be part of a voluntary militia to protect your city? Great. Others want to hire a private security firm to patrol their neighborhood? Also great. What isn't great is governmental monopoly on the use of force, turning peace officers into law enforcers of the state, and into the enemies of the people they are supposed to represent.

[midnight rambler]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.



There is the answer. That's why it's under attack.

LOL I posted the history of 'police forces' in the US of A yet no comment was made about that. Prior to the collectivists/Marxists/statists making their Big Move in the 1860s-1870s that's EXACTLY how things were handled, under the ELECTED office of the sheriff (as opposed to how it is currently with political appointees 'enforcing' *public policy*).

[slowbell]

That does not solve the matter of their having a monopoly of force, that the scent of power would attract the worst, and that they might 'supplement' their income through other means.

Maybe the solution to this issue, is to have each volunteer cop voted on by the community they serve. Also, have regular elections, if a cop becomes corrupt, they would get voted out.

[Santa]

Plus, the police are fast becoming militarized.
We should all be well aware by now how these police state scenarios play out.

[iOWNme]

Ahh yes the age old adage of 'How will we survive without the STATE'?

Are there more criminals or less criminals since the STATE has grown by 100x? Again a 5 year old can figure this out, but after 20 years of education we get all mixed up.

The STATE makes the grass grow. The STATE makes the sun rise. The STATE provides food and shelter and oxygen. The STATE allows individuals to work and produce. The STATE allows private business to operate and sell goods. The STATE makes the earth spin around the sun.

People like slowbell are convinced that we must have a STATE. Why? If we can all agree to have a STATE and follow laws, then couldnt we all agree to not have a STATE and just be self governed? You see, either way there will be a criminal element. The biggest difference would be that the STATE would not be creating criminals through the school system. This whole mentality that society would crumble without the pro active offensive monopoly on Violence,..... THIS IS LAUGHABLE.

How many people here would resort to unlawful activity as soon as the Cops were gone? Thats what i thought.

There will always be criminals. The STATE cannot save you from them, and they never will. Wake up to reality. As a matter of fact, the State and Federal courts have all ruled: THEY DONT HAVE TO PROTECT YOU. Fuck this argument gets OLD.

Its real easy to figure out: If you want to protect your property, then learn how to defend it.

Please help me understand this: We wanted to protect our property, so we created a STATE that has the power and authority to steal your property at any time? This is fucking insanity. Creating a MONSTER with the power to steal your property at will, and kill you at anytime is not the intellectual answer to the problem of property and life protection. As a matter of fact, it is quite the opposite.

When the STATE has grown to the size we see, THEY MUST CREATE THE CRIMINALS as job security.

I would rather live in complete and total anarchy chaos, than have to live with an authoritarian power known as the STATE who has the power to steal my property and killl me at will. YES i am an extremist.

[Sparky]

It seems that there is too much efficiency of scale for privatization to be more cost effective. Especially since the municipality would still have to hire some security force to protect public property. So I hire one firm to protect my house, my neighbor hires a different firm, and my town hires a third firm to protect against someone shooting out the street lights across from my house, or from vandalizing the park across the street. If my neighbor gets shot, does his security share the case information with my security to see if I am now more at risk, or do they keep the details away from their competitor? How much geographic jurisdiction authority does my security have? Can he stop the drug dealer from selling at my kid's elementary school? Would there be 10 other private security firms investigating the same case? How could that be cost effective?

[madfranks]

I agree with you Sui Juris, except on the last part about "learn to do it yourself". Of course, everyone should have the means to protect themselves, but that doesn't have to be the exclusive means of protection. That's what the division of labor is for.

The bottom line is, a free and liberated people will find methods to protect themselves that suit their needs the best. State coercion is simply not needed, and those who wonder how would people protect themselves unless the state provides it really need to try and learn how the free market works.

[midnight rambler]

When the STATE has grown to the size we see, THEY MUST CREATE THE CRIMINALS as job security.


And there you have it. lol 'Law enforcement' is a growth industry.

[madfranks]

It seems that there is too much efficiency of scale for privatization to be more cost effective. Especially since the municipality would still have to hire some security force to protect public property. So I hire one firm to protect my house, my neighbor hires a different firm, and my town hires a third firm to protect against someone shooting out the street lights across from my house, or from vandalizing the park across the street. If my neighbor gets shot, does his security share the case information with my security to see if I am now more at risk, or do they keep the details away from their competitor? How much geographic jurisdiction authority does my security have? Can he stop the drug dealer from selling at my kid's elementary school? Would there be 10 other private security firms investigating the same case? How could that be cost effective?

How do the dozens of home, vehicle, property, etc. insurance companies deal with each other right now? Somehow they've figured out methods of working together and it's still profitable for them. This wouldn't be the first time multiple companies in the same business have to learn to deal with each other. Insurance companies cooperate with each other to better serve their customers, why would it be any different?

[horseshoe3]

Magnes pointed out the 2 biggest problems with law enforcement. Privatize it, and you will still have those same problems.


If you have a private organization with the same corruption top to bottom and disregard for the lives and property of others, it would be very similar to the mafia. I am not one bit worried about the mafia. I hardly ever think about them. I think about the risks of meeting a cop on a daily basis.

[sirgonzo420]

If you have a private organization with the same corruption top to bottom and disregard for the lives and property of others, it would be very similar to the mafia. I am not one bit worried about the mafia. I hardly ever think about them. I think about the risks of meeting a cop on a daily basis.

Please don't slander La Cosa Nostra. They have a code of honor at least.

[Twisted Titan]

Good points TT. However, consider that a cops job in society is to essentially take out the trash, In the days of Norman Rockwell a cops Job use to be to take the trash ...Now their job is to bring in revenue by ANY MEANS

and deal with the bad element, so that folks don't have to. And now that you deal with that element you have the power of life or death over me and i have little recourse to change it.....

Most folks just want to be left alone, go to their jobs, and sleep at night without worrying about their property and family. Therefore, folks pay their taxes, to pay the police to do the job they would rather not do.

Help always starts out with the best of intentions but it always seems to denigrates into forced compliance

In your example, there would be extreme Darwinism. The strong would survive, the weak would die off. I agree it could be a functioning system, but a very tough world to live in for most folks.


Look at the world we live in now...... Cops are held to ZERO accountability. The have little to no discretion on dealing with the Public only to implement draconian policy of the higher up and they are well rewarded on how quickly and aggressively they dispense that misery and mayhem.

I will take my scenario any day of the week in heart beat

[Twisted Titan]

How do the dozens of home, vehicle, property, etc. insurance companies deal with each other right now? Somehow they've figured out methods of working together and it's still profitable for them. This wouldn't be the first time multiple companies in the same business have to learn to deal with each other. Insurance companies cooperate with each other to better serve their customers, why would it be any different?


Bingo.......... picture a world where if your house did got broken into there were 3 or 4 detectives hungry as hell to find out who do it and recover your property if possible.


Rather then get a speech that MF got from the local porker about "you should leave investigations about crime to law enforcement to handle" when he got his property stolen by a local contractor.

MF handled the whole process himself and the all the bacon brigade did was do what they do best ..write a friggen report and stuff it in the dam circulation bin.

Privitazation would be the best thing in the world to happen to law enforcement

[willie pete]

IMO; do we need some level of public security? sure, of course we do, it's becoming now though that what we have has morphed into an enormous cancer, one which feeds off the central gov't in just one aspect alone, for instance:

Congress has given Tampa – and Charlotte, the location of the Democratic National Convention – $50 million each in taxpayer money to try to ensure everyone is safe for the political gatherings that crown each party's presidential candidate every four years.
Tampa police have spent about $13.6 million so far on big-ticket security items, including 200 bicycles, 13 electric all-terrain vehicles and one armored truck for the Aug. 27-31 Republican gathering.
However, authorities are not revealing much more about the purchases and other expenditures.
The Associated Press sent Tampa Police a public records request asking for copies of the purchase orders and bids of everything the department is buying for the convention. The Secret Service contends that the information is exempt from public scrutiny due to homeland security concerns and officials say the request is under review.
Tampa police have already bought seven Segways, 1,765 handheld radios, 163 vehicle-mounted radios, helmets, face shields and body armor. The radios have so far been the biggest purchase, at $6 million.

I'd also like to see police held to the Exact standards as civilians with No immunity, it's also unfortunate that IMO the majority of officers cover and lie for the corrupt ones, and address the use of force thats actually needed, someone takes off running from an officer, don't shoot them in the back, don't shoot into a mixed crowd point blank with rubber bullets.....and don't body block someone who weighs a 100 lbs less than you into a concrete wall resulting in putting them in a vegetative coma for life just because they took off running from you....(turned out in this case it was even the wrong guy)

http://youtu.be/9llvTQn8v-c

[slowbell]

People like slowbell are convinced that we must have a STATE. Why?

I've had enough with this discussion. Comments like this one above is exactly why.

It's not about statism, it's about helping folks. You negative bastards can piss off. I suppose there's always folks who tend to ignore the good, and focus on the bad. I refuse to believe a significant life changing part of my life was in vain, and have plenty of first hand experiences to back it up.

[Uncle Salty]

Yes, because the only thing keeping me from raping and murdering is the cops.

Maybe not you but cops stand between many people and barbarism. In the initial void, things would get real bad.

Remember Katrina?

[BabushkaLady]

I've had enough with this discussion. Comments like this one above is exactly why.

It's not about statism, it's about helping folks. You negative bastards can piss off. I suppose there's always folks who tend to ignore the good, and focus on the bad. I refuse to believe a significant life changing part of my life was in vain, and have plenty of first hand experiences to back it up.

Out of curiosity, why are you not still a cop? :confused:

[Skirnir_]

I've had enough with this discussion. Comments like this one above is exactly why.

It's not about statism, it's about helping folks. You negative bastards can piss off. I suppose there's always folks who tend to ignore the good, and focus on the bad. I refuse to believe a significant life changing part of my life was in vain, and have plenty of first hand experiences to back it up.

Discussion as to the necessity of the state is germane to the topic at hand. The police are paid by the state and answer to the same.

Furthermore, it is fortunate that your opinion is of no consequence.

[sirgonzo420]

Maybe not you but cops stand between many people and barbarism. In the initial void, things would get real bad.

Remember Katrina?

LOL you mean when the COPS forcibly disarmed little ol' white grandmothers who were trying to defend their property from the looting um... "african-american" hordes?

[midnight rambler]

Maybe not you but cops stand between many people and barbarism. In the initial void, things would get real bad.

Remember Katrina?

Indeed, remember the LEOs and the soldiers entering homes without a warrant and confiscating guns??

[midnight rambler]

It's not about statism, it's about helping folks.

"I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you." lol (I was laughing so hard on this one I nearly choked!)

And yeah a couple of days ago, I watched a 'code enforcement' officer write up a HVAC guy a $500 citation for not having a permit for the job he was on (the salesman was responsible for acquiring the permit and he was out sick the day before). Yes indeed, THAT is VERY 'helpful'.

[iOWNme]

I've had enough with this discussion. Comments like this one above is exactly why.

It's not about statism, it's about helping folks. You negative bastards can piss off. I suppose there's always folks who tend to ignore the good, and focus on the bad. I refuse to believe a significant life changing part of my life was in vain, and have plenty of first hand experiences to back it up.

I simply asked you why you think we need Government run Cops, and you get all mad and try and change the subject? You know i like you, i just wanted you to analyze this question in your own mind and clarify as to why.

You say its about helping people. Well guess what, i dont need an all powerful STATE that can rob me at will, and threaten my very life with force under the guise of 'helping people'. I fucking help people all the time. I pull over when they are on the side of the road because i know about cars, i always give people who genuinely look to be on hard times money when i see them, I love to stick up for people being picked on (its a hobby of mine), i always hold doors open for people, Im extremely overly polite to strangers, etc. I dont need anyone to tell me how to behave.

PLEASE think about this: Every single thing you do 'good' as a Cop, you can do as an individual. Where do you think the Cop gets the power to arrest? From a citizen's arrest powers. The individual existed PRIOR to Government. Not the other way around.

[madfranks]

Solid, don't get upset. The reason why cops today have such a bad rap is 100% because they are agents of the state, commissioned with carrying out the state's directives against the people. That's why it is so important to remove the police from the state's clutches. If they worked for the people, directly hired to protect them and help them, things would be wayyyyyy different than they are now. Now look, I'm not saying that all cops are jerks, and I'd bet that a portion of them believe they're doing good, but I'm with Awoke, I've never, ever been helped by a cop in my entire life, but I've been harassed, threatened, extorted, detained, the list goes on...

[Skirnir_]

One of the reasons I sold the car is so I would not have to deal with them any longer. On foot, they need reasonable suspicion to briefly detained, but while driving, it is a completely different story.

[slowbell]

Furthermore, it is fortunate that your opinion is of no consequence.

Now, what do you mean by this? I'm starting lean towards the General's opinion about you. I'm starting to think, he nailed it in regards to you.

[sirgonzo420]

Now, what do you mean by this? I'm starting lean towards the General's opinion about you. I'm starting to think, he nailed it in regards to you.

I think he is just being supercilious.

[Hatha Sunahara]

I have a bit of empathy for slowbell. Everyone has a need to subscribe to noble ideals. It's necessary to be able to sleep well at night, despite what you do for a living. Better to see yourself a hero rather than a villain. Helps you get a good night's sleep.


Hatha

[slowbell]

PLEASE think about this: Every single thing you do 'good' as a Cop, you can do as an individual. Where do you think the Cop gets the power to arrest? From a citizen's arrest powers. The individual existed PRIOR to Government. Not the other way around.

I agree with this 100%. Everyone has the right to citizen's arrest, but let me ask, how many folks actively go out and take action on what they preach with words? Very few. Are you out patrolling your neighborhood to protect if from crime? Serious question. Who's watching your neighbor's when you sleep? Who is watching you, for that matter?

All theory, no action. Everyone sits there with their rhetoric, but nothing fucking gets done.

[slowbell]

I have a bit of empathy for slowbell. Everyone has a need to subscribe to noble ideals. It's necessary to be able to sleep well at night, despite what you do for a living. Better to see yourself a hero rather than a villain. Helps you get a good night's sleep.


Hatha

I have zero regrets in life. Hope you can sleep with your delusions.

[sirgonzo420]

I agree with this 100%. Everyone has the right to citizen's arrest, but let me ask, how many folks actively go out and take action on what they preach with words? Very few. Are you out patrolling your neighborhood to protect if from crime? Serious question. Who's watching your neighbor's when you sleep? Who is watching you, for that matter?

All theory, no action. Everyone sits there with their rhetoric, but nothing fucking gets done.


Look how it worked out for George Zimmerman.

Ya gotta have a badge if you don't want your life ruined.

[slowbell]

Look how it worked out for George Zimmerman.

Ya gotta have a badge if you don't want your life ruined.

So, that's what it is.

Fear of taking action because your life could be ruined. Fair enough, that's no reflection on cops though. Justice is justice at the end of the day, regardless of who does it.

[Skirnir_]

Everyone has a need to subscribe to noble ideals.

That is easily overcome.

[sirgonzo420]

So, that's what it is.

Fear of taking action because your life could be ruined. Fair enough, that's no reflection on cops though. Justice is justice at the end of the day, regardless of who does it.

The State has a vested interest in the police/military being the only source of force/authority. The State has a monopoly on force... that's what it is.

So when a non-cop (I don't care for the word "civilians") does something a cop might do, they are often called vigilantes, and scorned like Zimmerman. The State and media push this angle.

One hand washes the other with the police and the State. Or rather, the former is an arm of the latter. That's the problem.

[slowbell]

The State has a vested interest in the police/military being the only source of force/authority. The State has a monopoly on force... that's what it is.

So when a non-cop (I don't care for the word "civilians") does something a cop might do, they are often called vigilantes, and scorned like Zimmerman. The State and media push this angle.

One hand washes the other with the police and the State. Or rather, the former is an arm of the latter. That's the problem.

OK, I think I understand. You don't like cops, because they can do what you actually want to do, but feel you can't.

Personally, I couldn't care less who brings the turd to justice, as long as someone does, cop, civilian, enzo, or whoever.

[Skirnir_]

OK, I think I understand. You don't like cops, because they can do what you actually want to do, but feel you can't.

Personally, I couldn't care less who brings the turd to justice, as long as someone does, cop, civilian, enzo, or whoever.

Nice strawman; shame if a lit match were to find it.

As to your previous inquiry i.e. why your opinion is of no consequence, just because one refuses to believe something does not make it so. The refusal to temper past dispositions with newly absorbed data begets delusion.

[sirgonzo420]

OK, I think I understand. You don't like cops, because they can do what you actually want to do, but feel you can't.

Personally, I couldn't care less who brings the turd to justice, as long as someone does, cop, civilian, enzo, or whoever.

But the State often *does* care. They want *their* people to be the ones perceived as the "protectors". They often prosecute non-cops for doing such things.

Like how Bloomberg is telling cops to go on strike until people give up their guns.

And I don't want to do what cops do, I just want them to leave me the fuck alone.

Police cruisers provoke more anxiety and fear in the public at large than any other vehicle. Nobody likes riding around with a cruiser behind them, unless they too work for the State.

[BrewTech]

However, consider that a cops job in society is to essentially take out the trash, and deal with the bad element, so that folks don't have to.


Yeah, but in reality they don't do that. More often than not they are victimizing people that are no threat to anyone by way of policy violation.

I, personally, am much more afraid of what damage a cop can do to my quality of life (day to day) than I am of this "trash" of which you speak.

[slowbell]

Like how Bloomberg is telling cops to go on strike until people give up their guns.

And I don't want to do what cops do, I just want them to leave me the fuck alone.

Police cruisers provoke more anxiety and fear in the public at large than any other vehicle. Nobody likes riding around with a cruiser behind them, unless they too work for the State.

Bloomberg is a hammerhead. It's hard to believe that jackoff is a mayor.

I just want to be left alone too. I see things a bit differently though. The saying that there's two kinds of folks, the folks that want to be left alone, and the folks that will not leave them alone.

Most here, apply that to .gov. I apply that to the turds, predators, on the street who like to prey on folks who just want to left alone. I've seen that first hand, turds who will not let others alone. They need to be dealt with. You can not sweep them under the rug. Someone has to step up to the plate and face them.

[BrewTech]

Solid, don't get upset. The reason why cops today have such a bad rap is 100% because they are agents of the state, commissioned with carrying out the state's directives against the people. That's why it is so important to remove the police from the state's clutches. If they worked for the people, directly hired to protect them and help them, things would be wayyyyyy different than they are now. Now look, I'm not saying that all cops are jerks, and I'd bet that a portion of them believe they're doing good, but I'm with Awoke, I've never, ever been helped by a cop in my entire life, but I've been harassed, threatened, extorted, detained, the list goes on...

Just to be fair, I actually have been helped by a cop once, upon my personal request. Not a terribly interesting story, but valuable as far as full disclosure goes I guess...

[Skirnir_]

Police cruisers provoke more anxiety and fear in the public at large than any other vehicle. Nobody likes riding around with a cruiser behind them, unless they too work for the State.

Back when I drove, it was my great pleasure to drive 8 under behind cop cars when there was not the option to change lanes. The statue penalises ten under as impeding traffic or something of that nature, so I could not be touched. One even honked and flipped the bird; it made my day.

[sirgonzo420]

Bloomberg is a hammerhead. It's hard to believe that jackoff is a mayor.

I just want to be left alone too. I see things a bit differently though. The saying that there's two kinds of folks, the folks that want to be left alone, and the folks that will not leave them alone.

Most here, apply that to .gov. I apply that to the turds, predators, on the street who like to prey on folks who just want to left alone. I've seen that first hand, turds who will not let others alone. They need to be dealt with. You can not sweep them under the rug. Someone has to step up to the plate and face them.

How about we fire all the cops, take all the collective budgets used for police in this country, cut it in half, and use it to purchase gear for the people that PAID for all of it (ya know, those poor non-cop mundane saps that get chunks taken out of their often times already meager paychecks), and let them SELF-GOVERN as was the original American idea.

The "trash" are all around me where I live but they don't fuck with me, as I am adequately prepared to defend my self, family and property.

[slowbell]

The "trash" are all around me where I live but they don't fuck with me, as I am adequately prepared to defend my self, family and property.

Everyone says that, but you have to sleep sometime. Most folks go to bed at night and sleep.

If you don't want the cops to deal with the predators, you need to learn how not to sleep at night and deal with them yourself. Are you prepared for that?

[Twisted Titan]

Maybe not you but cops stand between many people and barbarism. In the initial void, things would get real bad.

Remember Katrina?

why yes............yes i do



http://youtu.be/0Eesc2CIoBs

[Skirnir_]

Everyone says that [they are prepared to defend themselves], but you have to sleep sometime. Most folks go to bed at night and sleep.

If you don't want the cops to deal with the predators, you need to learn how not to sleep at night and deal with them yourself. Are you prepared for that?

False dichotomy. In a breaking and entering scenario, unless there was a cop standing guard at the door, the only line of defence is one's self. Assuming one is able to call the cops, it would be long before they arrive relative to the time a criminal can do his damage and flee.

[slowbell]

False dichotomy. In a breaking and entering scenario, unless there was a cop standing guard at the door, the only line of defence is one's self. Assuming one is able to call the cops, it would be long before they arrive relative to the time a criminal can do his damage and flee.

Look meathead, I'm talking about catching the turd BEFORE he breaks into your home.

You are sleeping and never know about it.

[midnight rambler]

If you don't want the cops to deal with the predators, you need to learn how not to sleep at night and deal with them yourself. Are you prepared for that?

What reasonable and prudent man isn't?? Who says one needs "to learn how not to sleep at night"? That's just dumb. I sleep just fine - the slightest sound from one of my dogs and I'm instantly awake. My dogs do a far better job at 'protecting' me than any cop ever could.

[slowbell]

What reasonable and prudent man isn't?? Who says one needs "to learn how not to sleep at night"? That's just dumb. I sleep just fine - the slightest sound from one of my dogs and I'm instantly awake. My dogs do a far better job at 'protecting' me than any cop ever could.

midnight, most folks are not prepared, even if you are. Someone should look out for them, imo, that's the right thing to do.

[midnight rambler]

Someone should look out for them

Nanny state to the rescue! lol

Dial 911 and die! lololololol

[slowbell]

Nanny state to the rescue! lol

Dial 911 and die! lololololol

Just because you don't give a shit about other folks, doesn't mean I need to.

Take your BS and shove it up your selfish ass.

[Skirnir_]

Just because you don't give a shit about other folks, doesn't mean I need to.

Take your BS and shove it up your selfish ass.

Again with the strawmen. Do I have to come over there and burn all of them?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XchwE9zVdnw

[Twisted Titan]

Everyone says that, but you have to sleep sometime. Most folks go to bed at night and sleep.

If you don't want the cops to deal with the predators, you need to learn how not to sleep at night and deal with them yourself. Are you prepared for that?





If you don't want the accidents when you deal with vehicles , you need to learn how not drive anymore so you can be safe . Are you prepared for that??


do you see how you appear when you tweak the words a little but try to apply your same logic???

[midnight rambler]

Just because you don't give a shit about other folks, doesn't mean I need to.

Take your BS and shove it up your selfish ass.

Admit it, you LOVE the nanny state.

[slowbell]

If you don't want the accidents when you deal with vehicles , you need to learn how not drive anymore so you can be safe . Are you prepared for that??


do you see how you appear when you tweak the words a little but try to apply your same logic???


That is not a fair comparison TT, and you know that. You are comparing no action (not driving) to action (protecting family from turds).

Protecting your family takes action. Not driving for fear of accidents means hiding. You can safely stay at home and not drive, yet to protect yourself,and family, from predators you need the mindset that you are NOT safe at home.


.

[slowbell]

Admit it, you LOVE the nanny state.

I honor the men and women, despite the corruption, who have upheld our constitution and their "oath", and who have dedicated their lives to protect their fellow citizens.

[Skirnir_]

I honor the men and women...

They have already been honoured by stolen 'tax dollars' and unwarranted esteem among drones.

[Horn]

1) If there were no cops at all, what do you think our cities would look like?

Police are only a recent addition to civilization, cities are ancient.

The civility of city life has pretty much remained a constant based mostly of the morals of its inhabitants.

Cities with low morals typically died fast in history, these days the police allow a city with low morals to fester as an open wound on the landscape.

[Twisted Titan]

That is not a fair comparison TT, and you know that. You are comparing no action (not driving) to action (protecting family from turds).

Protecting your family, in the absence of cops, takes action. Not driving for fear of accidents means hiding. You can safely stay at home and not drive, yet to protect yourself,and family, from predators you need the mindset that you are NOT safe at home.


.


In order to justify your existnece you need to be kept in a constant state of paranoia with a non stop beat of the a fear mongering drum.

The bottom line is this You can NEVER reduce risk to zero all you can do is prepare tothe best of your abilty and the pieces are going to fall where they may....... but you are trying to sell the snake oil that somehow a blue and white parked 15 to 30 mins away is somehow going to make a difference to a predator.............hell 90 seconds with a criminal is dam near like a enternity


As a matter a fact why dont you do us all a favor ........... the next goon you bust ask them what their greatest fear is ......flat out it will be the possiblity that their victim is armed........ note what i said ........not that the victim has a smartphone with 911 on speed dial.

So by that logic if gun laws were relaxed.......... Criminal activity would almost be nil because The Predator would be neutralized by the fear that his next victim would be his last.

So if every household had access to a gun or at least that perception that is created ........ that would far better serve to keep my family safe then what you are constantly trying to hammer down my throat that the best security is State Sanctioned.

[slowbell]

They have already been honoured by stolen 'tax dollars' and unwarranted esteem among drones.

They are honored because idiots like yourself don't recognize what they do, day in and day out. They have a thankless job. Nobody sees what they do to make a difference, or when they do it. Yes, the ones that uphold the constitution, should be honored.

You seem to what to toss our constitution down the drain.

[madfranks]

This message has been deleted by zap (http://gold-silver.us/forum/member.php?3544-zap). Reason
cause nobody listens





I'll listen to you zap.

[madfranks]

Solid, your life "protecting and serving" would have been much better if you were an agent of the people, trusted to protect and serve the people who hired you to do it, rather than an agent of the state, commissioned to enforce immoral policies against innocent people who have harmed no one and have no intention to harm anyone. For every bad guy you helped get off the street, how many good guys did you cite, ticket, fine, detain, etc.? And I'm not saying this in a confrontational manner, I'm saying it in good faith that you'll see the difference between the two.

[slowbell]

So by that logic if gun laws were relaxed.......... Criminal activity would almost be nil because The Predator would be nutralized by the fear that his next victim would be his last.

So if every household had access to a gun or at least that perception........ that would far better serve to keep my family safe then what you are constantly trying to hammer down my throat that the best security is State Sanctioned.

[/B][/I]

I'm not trying to hammer anything down your throat.

I'll give you some harsh truth. If you have guns, and the predators have guns, you are at a disadvantage from the start. Even if you are home. You seem to think having a gun at home means you can relax, and feel safe.

Forget the police. For every turd they don't bring in, that's one more turd the general public, good folks, like yourself and others on this forum must deal with.

It's simple math. The predators are not going to go away, unless someone deals with them. I say give every good person a gun and plenty of ammo, no charge, and just by sheer numbers the predators would be gone eventually.

[midnight rambler]

You seem to what (sic) to toss our constitution (sic) down the drain.

Sez the nanny statist. lol

[slowbell]

Sez the nanny statist. lol

See, this is why you and I got banned the last time. You can be a provoking asshole. You like to push buttons, and irritate folks. Skirnir is doing the same thing in this thread as well.

[midnight rambler]

I honor the men and women, despite the corruption, who have upheld our constitution and their "oath", and who have dedicated their lives to protect their fellow citizens.

The brainwashing runs deep in this one.

How oh how did people ever manage to carry on their lives without the POLICE to *protect* them prior to the 1860s chain of events?? OMG I bet the murder rate was SO HIGH as to be beyond imagination! OH THE HORROR!!!

[Skirnir_]

See, this is why you and I got banned the last time. You can be a provoking asshole. You like to push buttons, and irritate folks. Skirnir is doing the same thing in this thread as well.

It cannot be helped that you are a giant button where this matter is concerned.

[Gaillo]

See, this is why you and I got banned the last time. You can be a provoking asshole. You like to push buttons, and irritate folks. Skirnir is doing the same thing in this thread as well.

Slow. Bell. Remember!

I have a lot of hope for you, my brother.

[Horn]

Smells like someone died in here, the pale rider stuff is the magic of Hollywood.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXNVOny7qdU

[Skirnir_]

Smells like someone died in here

Korean food will do that. I once set off a fire alarm that way.

[Twisted Titan]

I'm not trying to hammer anything down your throat.

You are trying to hammer that my throat that I somehow need you............ I DONT

I'll give you some harsh truth. If you have guns, and the predators have guns, you are at a disadvantage from the start. Even if you are home. You seem to think having a gun at home means you can relax, and feel safe.

No I dont feel safe......... but you know what I do feel??? PREPARED and your wrong I have a significant advantage I have the element of surprise and if you break into MY HOUSE my advantage has gone up by at least a factor of ten I might not even need my gun i can slash your face wide open with 2 1/2ft machette i keep on the side of my bed laying flat but in easy reach at all times.

Forget the police. For every turd they don't bring in, that's one more turd the general public, good folks, like yourself and others on this forum must deal with.

like I said....... there will ALWAYS be risk and anybody trying to sell you on a different concept is either dishonest or delusional or maybe both

It's simple math. The predators are not going to go away, unless someone deals with them. I say give every good person a gun and plenty of ammo, no charge, and just by sheer numbers the predators would be gone eventually.


And in your scenario after the Predators kinda go the way of the wind....... common folk would reach the conculsion that we dont need a on going police that is a drain on the public treasury so lets disband it and if the need arises we can round up able body citizens to deal with any threat to our way of life or safety.

Which is why the public would NEVER be armed free of charge.....too many pensions,weekly paychecks and College eductations depend on fear of The boogey man.

[midnight rambler]

See, this is why you and I got banned the last time. You can be a provoking asshole. You like to push buttons, and irritate folks. Skirnir is doing the same thing in this thread as well.

When are you going to admit you're a nanny statist, or alternatively, at least admit you have this disability which prevents you from seeing and clouds your judgment? (i.e. that you're anosognosic)

[slowbell]

Slow. Bell. Remember!

I have a lot of hope for you, my brother.

Cheers Gaillo. I'll try to be a better poster.

It's just I have all these hammerheads on my ass all of sudden. Out of the woodworks. I think some of these idiots are just trying to get a rise out of me....oh well, it's my fault if I let them get to me.

[midnight rambler]

too many pensions,weekly paychecks and College eductations depend on fear of The boogey man.


Exactly. We're talking about an entire INDUSTRY here. Think of the children! (if all these 'wage earners' were thrown out of work - mmmm! That govt. cheese [govt. teat] SURE IS SWEET!)

[Twisted Titan]

Exactly. We're talking about an entire INDUSTRY here. Think of the children! (if all these 'wage earners' were thrown out of work - mmmm! That govt. cheese [govt. teat] SURE IS SWEET!)

Dude I busted out laughing when I read Gubbermint cheese......I havent heard that in ages!

[Horn]

Maybe if they were ordered to change into pink-magenta uniforms it might stir up the economy?

3254

[Gaillo]

Maybe if they were ordered to change into pink-magenta uniforms it might stir up the economy?

3254

Welcome back, Book!... JK! ;D

[FreeEnergy]

It's simple math. The predators are not going to go away, unless someone deals with them. I say give every good person a gun and plenty of ammo, no charge, and just by sheer numbers the predators would be gone eventually.

but you aren't dealing with them.

stop the hymns already.

bankers are stealing trillions, are you arresting any? are there any bankers in jail, aside from benny madoff?

CIA is dealing drugs in US, are you arresting anyone? Not the poor 18 y.o. who happened to have a bong in the car, the actual distribution?

[LastResort]

You`re a joker SOLID oh oops I mean slowbell.

Take your bullshit and shove it up your ass...

[Serpo]

Police shoot 19 year old 5 times for under age drinkinghttp://dailymessenger.blogspot.sk/2012/07/police-shoot-19-year-old-5-times-for.html

[midnight rambler]

Police shoot 19 year old 5 times for under age drinking

http://dailymessenger.blogspot.sk/2012/07/police-shoot-19-year-old-5-times-for.html

"the word and testimony of police might as well be the word of god."


Aaron had just turned 19, and was no longer under her insurance. The medical bills have been incredibly high, and Ms. Rosas, who works as a fundraiser for various organizations, has struggled financially. The incident has changed her perspective on police. She recalled the Rodney King incident of the distant past. “I read about it, but it was so far away, and didn’t happen here. I started reading a lot of things about how many people had such an unfair shake with the law, and it’s unbelievable. It’s an epidemic, where the officers are taking the law into their own hands, and then they stick together.”

I got me a badge and a gun and that's my 'license to kill'.

[undgrd]

Slowbell.

I think what most people are saying is, given the opportunity to protect themselves and others, they would. At that point, there's no need for the police in the capacity they exist today.

You seem to think there's no way average people could handle the criminals on the street. I say, the criminals on the street would have to redefine fear if the people they prey upon are ever let off the leash...so to speak.

[SWRichmond]

First off, I'll admit not having read the entire 11 preceding pages.

The single most basic function of a government is to enable non-violent conflict resolution. Without that, advanced civilizations are not possible.

Non-violent conflict resolution historically has taken the form of a functioning judicial system. Emphasis on the word "functioning." Because if it is not functioning, or not seen to be functioning fairly, then it is worse than no system at all. I believe that is the condition we are approaching right now. The system is widely viewed as non-functional. It is seen as part of the problem, and not part of the solution. It is seen as unfair, biased, corrupt, prone to violence followed immediately by obvious and overt cover-up, for sale. It is populated by judges who won't allow evidence that goes against their masters (e.g. foreclosure fraud, cops who count among their number some very obviously sociopathic types whom they will not rid themselves of, prosecutors for whom winning (and furthering their own political careers) is much more important than truth (anyone ever watched jury selection?), and which serves a political system that itself is near totally corrupt. Cops would rather give me a ticket for having the wrong piece of paper stuck to my car than investigate a residential burglary or petty shoplifting. Giving me a ticket puts money into the system; investigating crime takes money out.

I could go on and on. The simple fact is that a growing group of people view the judicial system as an abject failure on all counts. The symptoms I describe above are no surprise to ascribe to any system that has had the legal monopoly on the use of force for hundreds of years. OF COURSE IT'S CORRUPT. As is the financial system and the entire political system. All are designed to loot the little guy, and threaten him when he tries to resist, god forbid fighting back.

White people used to disbelieve blacks when they complained about police violence. Then there was Youtube. I disbelieve them no more. Holy mother of god. Rather than being the available means for non-violent conflict resolution, the cops are becoming a major source of the violence.

The solution to this problem, the one offered by the system itself, is to ban making youtube videos of cops beating the shit out of people for no reason. Also, to hire thousands more mercenary Praetorian guards as private contractors (Blackwater), then tens of thousands more as soon-to-be street thugs (TSA), and bazillions of rounds of ammo for them to use practicing kicking our asses. Read the history of the SturmAbteilung, if you dare.

Message received and understood.

The one thing I don't envy cops is the coming choice they are going to be forced to make (i.e. Egypt): whose side am I on?

[midnight rambler]

prosecutors for whom winning (and furthering their own political careers) is much more important than truth

Amen to that.

[iOWNme]

So, that's what it is.

Fear of taking action because your life could be ruined. Fair enough, that's no reflection on cops though. Justice is justice at the end of the day, regardless of who does it.

I would LOVE to hear your definition of Justice.

Justice is when the Governments actions are RESTRICTED to what we would let an individual do. After all, Government is a creation of the individual. If Government is out doing things we wouldnt let an individual do, then Governments actions are IMMORAL and UNJUST. It might be 'Legal' but it is not Moral and not Just. When we allow the Government to do for an individual or Corporation something that we would not allow an individual or Corporation to do for themselves, then the Governments actions are UNJUST and IMMORAL.

If you think i am wrong, ask yourself this: Where did Government get the power to carry out 'Justice'? How can the Government POSSIBLY have some power that the individual didnt have to begin with? (Ever heard of circular logic?) If the individual does not have the Right to do something, then there is no way in REALITY that the Government has this power, as the Government derives its power from the consent of the individual.

That is all you ever need to apply to any Law: "Would we let an individual do this?"

Would we let an individual take property from another individual without his consent? But we let Government do this very thing, and people like you call it Justice.

Please reply with an intellectual crystal clear response as to your stance and definition of 'Justice'.

[horseshoe3]

Look meathead, I'm talking about catching the turd BEFORE he breaks into your home.

You are sleeping and never know about it.

I don't know how it is in the big city, but where I live, I've never seen a cop within 5 miles of my house. They are all out on the main roads trying to catch speeders to shake down. If someone was going to break into my house, the cops would be the last ones to know about it and prevent it. And the funny thing is, I can't remember the last time I heard of a crime being commited within 5 miles of my house. You would think that with the lack of "police protection" this would be a hotbed of criminal activity.

[sirgonzo420]

Look meathead, I'm talking about catching the turd BEFORE he breaks into your home.

You are sleeping and never know about it.


I'm sorry solid, but you set yourself up for this shit:

http://www.movielady.com/minority_report.jpg

[Santa]

All in all, this has been a very good thread. I find it mildly encouraging.

[Rubberchicken]

Red, White and Blue are the colors of freedom until they are the lights on the car behind you. Me no trust the po po.

[midnight rambler]

They are honored because idiots like yourself don't recognize what they do, day in and day out.




Just because you don't give a shit about other folks, doesn't mean I need to.

Take your BS and shove it up your selfish ass.



It's just I have all these hammerheads on my ass all of sudden. Out of the woodworks. I think some of these idiots are just trying to get a rise out of me....oh well, it's my fault if I let them get to me.

The precedent already having been set and apparently approved of (I checked lol) -

Hey pig lover, not only do I *think* you're both a hammerhead and an idiot I also *think* you can take your donut munching criminal Joo World Order tool swine lovin' BS and shove it up your selfish ass...lol.

[JDRock]

in my town we have good cops.-GREAT ones actually. I know your shocked to hear it, but these guys REFUSE to enforce bullshiiite rules, and criticize state cops who do enforce them. They ENCOURAGE the townspeople to be armed! The county cops are the best, the town is next, but the godless state cops are the biggest idiots in the world! no common sense no understanding of the spirit of the law vs the letter-they suck-period. however, outside of my area i have reason to distrust any and all government employees....im scared of any encounter with big city cops as they can take a law abiding innocent man, frame him at their lesiure, and the almost insurmountable burdon of proving the cops wrong is left to the victim and his limited resources.

[willie pete]

my overall opinion on the police is, MOST of the time they're not there to help you, they're agents of the state (or whatever gov't entity employs them); out to collect revenue AND information on the citizenry

[slowbell]

in my town we have good cops.-GREAT ones actually. I know your shocked to hear it, but these guys REFUSE to enforce bullshiiite rules, and criticize state cops who do enforce them. They ENCOURAGE the townspeople to be armed! The county cops are the best, the town is next, but the godless state cops are the biggest idiots in the world! no common sense no understanding of the spirit of the law vs the letter-they suck-period. however, outside of my area i have reason to distrust any and all government employees....im scared of any encounter with big city cops as they can take a law abiding innocent man, frame him at their lesiure, and the almost insurmountable burdon of proving the cops wrong is left to the victim and his limited resources.

Right on JDRock, well put. Out in the country, the cops are more laid back and understanding, as a general rule. I like how you brought up the letter of the law verses the spirit of the law, that's huge. Regarding state cops (or troopers)....all those guys do, for the most part, is issue tickets, and respond to accidents. That makes up 99% of their interaction with the public, basically they are revenue generators for the state. If you are driving and get pulled over, they will give you a ticket. A town sheriff or local cop is more likely to listen to what you have to say and act within the spirit of the law. That's their job,to respond to the public and resolve issues.

Big city cops, especially in the ghetto areas, are a different breed, in general. These guys will not back down. Big city cops get hands on with folks who threaten them or try to fight them. It's the code on the street, where respect is #1, and if a cop is disrespected in his beat he will take action. If midnight rambler, and others in this thread, spewed their BS to them in a confrontational manner like they do in this thread, that's the response they will get, a confrontation.

[Horn]

The solution to this problem, the one offered by the system itself, is to ban making youtube videos of cops beating the shit out of people for no reason. Also, to hire thousands more mercenary Praetorian guards as private contractors (Blackwater), then tens of thousands more as soon-to-be street thugs (TSA), and bazillions of rounds of ammo for them to use practicing kicking our asses. Read the history of the SturmAbteilung, if you dare.


Miami Beach Police Union Rep: "We Have Arrest Quotas Every Memorial Day Weekend"


Slacking on quotas can get you confined to desk duty, says Sanchez. Going arrest-crazy gets you rewarded: "There's a payoff for the cop who helps fill the quotas, because it effects their evaluation. The first consideration becomes making an arrest. That's all they care about. They don't care if it's a bullshit arrest. They don't care if it's dismissed."


http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/05/miami_beach_police_union_rep_w.php

[JDRock]

when i was 13 i was busted for stealing a candybar....the cop put my bike in the back of his squad, drove me ALMOST home, then dropped me off around the corner so the whole neighborhood wouldnt see that i got busted....a truly great cop...
THEN years later me and my brother in law called the cops because some stuff was stolen, we fingered a gang member...and illegal immigrant, who whispered in the cops ear that he could help him get promoted by snitching for him! the cop then tried to press charges on US WHOS STUFF WAS STOLEN!

[iOWNme]

when i was 13 i was busted for stealing a candybar....the cop put my bike in the back of his squad, drove me ALMOST home, then dropped me off around the corner so the whole neighborhood wouldnt see that i got busted....a truly great cop...


A truly great Cop?

I bet the store owner who you stole from didnt think this was a 'truly great Cop'.

You cant POSSIBLY think that stealing is a victimless crime? You literally stole private property, and then the 'Law' decided you didnt need to be punished. And you called that a 'truly great Cop'?

You see, we CONSTANTLY run up against this thing called Moral Absolutes. Stealing is wrong, no matter how many 'truly great Cops' say otherwise. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong, Cops dont get to decide which is which on an arbitrary basis.

[slowbell]

A truly great Cop?

I bet the store owner who you stole from didnt think this was a 'truly great Cop'.

You cant POSSIBLY think that stealing is a victimless crime? You literally stole private property, and then the 'Law' decided you didnt need to be punished. And you called that a 'truly great Cop'?

You see, we CONSTANTLY run up against this thing called Moral Absolutes. Stealing is wrong, no matter how many 'truly great Cops' say otherwise. Right is Right and Wrong is Wrong, Cops dont get to decide which is which on an arbitrary basis.

Sui, it was a candy bar and a 13 year old kid! This is where the spirit of the law comes in. JDRock, to this day, still remembers that cop. He left a lasting impression on him, and that can have a bigger effect on someone's life than following the letter of the law.

[Santa]

"U.S. State and Local Law Enforcement Agencies Census 2008" by Bureau of Justice Statistics. Alaska Justice Forum 28(2–3): 8–9 (Summer 2011-Fall 2011). Over 1.1 millions persons were employed full-time by state and local law enforcement in the U.S. in 2008, according to the most recent census of state and local law enforcement agencies from the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Of that number, 765,000 were sworn personnel—defined as those with general arrest powers. In 2008, Alaska had 1,298 sworn personnel in 50 state and local law enforcement agencies, including 274 sworn officers of the Alaska State Troopers.

There are approximately another 1,000,000 private security personnel in the US as well.
That's a lot of donuts.
The last I read, there are about 2,000,000 people in the US with national security clearances.

Now, as a comparison, there are 3,500,000 truck drivers.

So, to be optimistic, there are probably still more trucks on the road than there are police cruisers.

[slowbell]

There are approximately another 1,000,000 private security personnel in the US as well.
That's a lot of donuts..

That's a lot of cops, but damnit, enough about the donuts!

7 months in academy, 4 months sworn, and not one donut. None of us ate them, ever. You try chasing down some turd with over 25 lbs of gear around your waste and wearing a bullet proof vest.

The first thing I did when I resigned? You guessed it, went out and ate a donut.

[Horn]

http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/57500/Police-Car-with-Donut-Wheels-57950.jpg


The first thing I did when I resigned? You guessed it, went out and ate a donut.

If only KG were here. ::)

[Santa]

Lol...:o
http://i915.photobucket.com/albums/ac358/jackconrad/junk/50dae57b.jpg

[iOWNme]

Sui, it was a candy bar and a 13 year old kid! This is where the spirit of the law comes in. JDRock, to this day, still remembers that cop. He left a lasting impression on him, and that can have a bigger effect on someone's life than following the letter of the law.

I notice you didnt mention the Store owner and his property that was stolen, THAT THE COPS ARE SWORN TO PROTECT.

You live your life by your own standards, NOT any type of Morals or Justice.

I didnt say he should DIE for it, i said theft is a violation of Law, and should be punished accordingly. Ive made my point several times, and it is apparent you have no intention of having an intellectual discourse on this topic. I will now stop attempting to have a honest debate with you. I do find it ironic that YOU started this thread, and it is YOU who has gotten all butt hurt, and upset.

[madfranks]

When I was 18 or 19 our trailer got broken into and some electronics were stolen. When the cop came over to file a report we offered him a donut, and sure as shit he took it and savored every bite.

[slowbell]

I notice you didnt mention the Store owner and his property that was stolen, THAT THE COPS ARE SWORN TO PROTECT.

You live your life by your own standards, NOT any type of Morals or Justice.

I didnt say he should DIE for it, i said theft is a violation of Law, and should be punished accordingly. Ive made my point several times, and it is apparent you have no intention of having an intellectual discourse on this topic. I will now stop attempting to have a honest debate with you. I do find it ironic that YOU started this thread, and it is YOU who has gotten all butt hurt, and upset.



Fair enough Sui. I find it very ironic though, your stance on this. The very laws cops are sworn to uphold, by the people, these same cops are bashed for enforcing them. Are you going to complain if you get a ticket from a cop for speeding?

The spirit of the law and the letter of the law, is a very good topic to discuss. In JDRock's case, I seriously doubt the store owner would press charges. It was more about a 13 year old kid learning a lesson. Learning it's wrong to steal in a positive way, not a punitive way. Kids make mistakes, if he was an adult at the time, I'd feel differently about it.

FWIW, the same thing (sort of) happened to me. I still remember that cop as well.

[Horn]

I seriously doubt the store owner would press charges. It was more about a 13 year old kid learning a lesson. Learning it's wrong to steal in a positive way, not a punitive way. Kids make mistakes, if he was an adult at the time, I'd feel differently about it.

FWIW, the same thing (sort of) happened to me. I still remember that cop as well.

If the cop was ordered to bring him in by a superior, he would have done that.

Its pig law.

[singular_me]

the more centralization the worst it gets. However it is the very same centralization that allows whatever cartels to come into life.


In your example, there would be extreme Darwinism. The strong would survive, the weak would die off. I agree it could be a functioning system, but a very tough world to live in for most folks.

I dont see any difference between the stone age and our present day, do you? Life is a lot tougher that many imagine, but most are so accustomed to their own daily difficulties/struggles that they dont perceive them as such. No to mention the depopulation world threat...

Each century has it sets of difficulties and I am sure that in 500 years, people will compare us to cave men too. What amazes me is that every epoch claims its own to be the most advanced and takes for granted the knowledge we know. But the fact is as Knowledge progresses we often are being proven wrong as time passes.

The bigger is reality, the bigger get the issues if ignored . But the latter always mirror the self in the end.

There is only one way to render cops (almost) obsolete: teaching the tenets of non coercion in elementary schools. (see video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I


As long as it cannot be done, even a pro-gun policy wont resolve violence. Without cops, gangs and other mobs will prosper even more.

It is more fundamental than that, thats the whole society that needs to undergo a radical change in thinking. We need first a major decapitalization (not saying socialism) of the planet, people will have to be faced with their (destructive) hyper-materialism, I am afraid.

ps: exchanging ideas and point of views are always beneficial but I often notice that its easier to debate more the consequences than the causes. Thats mainly why problems seem inextricable while solutions are always so simple.

[iOWNme]

Fair enough Sui. I find it very ironic though, your stance on this. The very laws cops are sworn to uphold, by the people, these same cops are bashed for enforcing them. Are you going to complain if you get a ticket from a cop for speeding?



The fact that you compare theft to speeding proves to me that you STILL dont understand Law. One of these crimes has an injured party, the other does not. Please refer to the Minority Report movie ad MR posted.

Theft is based in REALITY. Speeding is based on PRECRIME.

The idea that i should be punished because something i did MAY cause someone an injury, is the very foundation of TYRANNY. Wake up man.

Lets ask JD if he EVER stole ANYTHING ever again after that. I would bet if he was honest he will admit he did. (We ALL did). How is a 13 year old going to learn a lesson from a Cop allowing him to steal? Why wouldnt you steal again, if you got off?

PLEASE watch my video on what i call 'Fractional Law Making'

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?62235-Fractional-Law-Making-and-Moral-Debt&highlight=fractional

[Serpo]

NYPD blues: Ex-cop's gripping portrait of the boredom, the fear and the adrenalin rookie officers face on the mean streets of New York By Emily Anne Epstein (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=&authornamef=Emily+Anne+Epstein)
PUBLISHED: 20:07 GMT, 25 July 2012 | UPDATED: 21:56 GMT, 25 July 2012


(http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2178940/The-NYPD-blues-Antonio-Bolfo-chronicles-boredom-depression-chaos-rookie-officers-face-streets-New-York-City.html#comments)








Antonio Bolfo was a police officer from 2006 to 2008, working in some of the most crime-ridden housing projects in the South Bronx.

A born-and-bred New Yorker, Mr Bolfo's interest in law enforcement was sparked by the World Trade Center attacks, so he, like so many other officers, entered the police academy to find his purpose.

But the more and more he fell in love with police work, the more and more he photographed it, capturing an intimate view of New York City's finest never seen before.

The images are currently on exhibition at the Half King (http://www.thehalfking.com/gallery/) in Chelsea, where the curators invite the public to take a closer look at the police and the emotional cost of their jobs.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/25/article-2178940-143710FB000005DC-229_964x641.jpg Descent: An IMPACT cop descends into the bowels of the Mitchell Housing Projects in the Mott Haven neighborhood located in South Bronx, New York City. The stairwells of the projects are a haven for criminal activity, including robberies, assaults, and drug deals. The passages are narrow and dark, providing victims with no warning before they are attacked



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/25/article-2178940-143710E7000005DC-807_964x641.jpg Rage: Party goers, who only moments before called the police, shout at responding officers who attempt to restrain the man they accused of stealing handbags from their house party



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/25/article-2178940-143710EB000005DC-516_964x641.jpg Team: Officers Weadock, left, and Olivero, right, spend their lunch break checking out the precinct gossip on Facebook in Mott Haven. Scandalous rumors run amuck in the precinct, and Facebook helps fan the fires



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/25/article-2178940-143710F2000005DC-17_964x641.jpg Dance: Residents of Mitchell Housing Projects flirt with Officer Devine in Mott Haven neighborhood

Mr Bolfo said that four days after graduating from the police academy he was ordered to PSA 7, the precinct that monitors the public housing projects in Mott Haven. Mott Haven is a low-income residential neighborhood in the southwest Bronx between West 138th Street to East 149th Street. East 138th Street is the primary thoroughfare through the area.
'Prior to this, I had six months of Police Academy classroom training, along with some gym sessions where they made us run in circles with five-minute intervals of punching and kicking,' he said.

He was assigned to Operation Impact, begun in 2003, which puts new recruits with seasoned officers to tackle some of the most dangerous neighborhoods in New York City.

More...

Violence erupts at Anaheim protest as hundreds clash with police after officers killed SIX people so far this year... including one unarmed man (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2178595/Anaheim-riots-Hundreds-protest-local-police-kill-SIX-people-far-year.html)
Thousands of sex offenders may secretly live next to schools and playgrounds by creating new identities to evade the law (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2178747/Thousands-sex-offenders-secretly-live-schools-playgrounds-creating-new-identities.html)
Who's more deflated? This sex doll or the 18 Chinese police officers who 'rescued her from drowning?' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2178430/Shandong-Province-Discarded-sex-doll-rescued-drowning-18-Chinese-police-officers.html)


In addition to his six months of classroom training, Mr Bolfo said his firearms training consisted of just one week of shooting at 'immobile targets' in the NYPD shooting range.

'We were as green as could be, and like other Impact officers I hit the ground running with little to no knowledge of how to operate on the street,' Mr Bolfo said. 'Yet we were expected to apprehend some of the toughest and most intelligent people in the city.'


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/25/article-2178940-143710E3000005DC-288_964x641.jpg Glare: Officer Pastula catches a fleeing suspect in the stairwell who is thought to be dealing drugs in the Mitchell Housing Projects in Mott Haven



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/25/article-2178940-1437109A000005DC-257_964x641.jpg The Walk: Officer Alba, a veteran Impact cop, leads two brand new officers through their first snow storm in the projects. Although Officer Alba was supposed to spend only 6 months in Impact, after a year and a half he has just received orders for another six-month tour



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/25/article-2178940-14371096000005DC-613_964x641.jpg Engage: A Milbrook resident shows off by doing flips in front of Officers Pettiway, left, and Diaz, right

He said he was unprepared for the harsh realities of the job, which included solving family disputes, consoling the parents of murdered children and even entertaining the neighborhood drunk.

It took its toll on the idealistic young man and his peers.

'No one calls the police when they're happy. We had no choice but to learn fast, but learning comes from making mistakes, and unfortunately we all made a lot of them.'
Antonio Bolfo

'No one calls the police when they're happy,' Mr Bolfo said. 'We had no choice but to learn fast, but learning comes from making mistakes, and unfortunately we all made a lot of them.'

His images of this vulnerable time are simultaneously fascinating and heartbreaking.

The rookie officers travel down dark and narrow hallways, chase down suspects and struggle to keep it together.
The fear and uncertainty on the officers' faces is captured with a confident lens, throughout the moments of calm to the outbreaks of chaos.
'I think many people who choose to become police officers do so with some optimism and hope that they can make a difference,' Mr Bolfo said. 'But unfortunately, in a community like South Bronx Housing, the reality comes crashing down on you very fast.'

Rather than hope for a better future, officers wrestled with hostility and resentment.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/25/article-2178940-14371092000005DC-450_964x640.jpg The Sword and the Pen: Officers update their memo books with the events that have unfolded throughout their tour to make certain that all three accounts match November 8, 2008 in Mott Haven. The memo book is admissible evidence in court. What is written in it is considered an official record



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/25/article-2178940-1437108A000005DC-228_964x641.jpg Pressure: Officers Weadock, left, Olivero, center, and Suarino, right, helplessly listen to a colleague cry for help over the radio in Mott Haven. Because Impact cops patrol on foot and have no access to police vehicles, they are unable to respond to the officer in need of assistance

Mr Bolfo said that depression was rampant in his unit, 'but no one would ever admit it out of fear it would be taken as a sign of weakness.'

His peers turned to alcohol or infidelity to escape the mounting pressure, Mr Bolfo said, but he chose to pick up a camera to capture the scenes that unfolded all around him.

'It started to feel more important and useful, and it was a fusion of everything that I had come to love,' he said.

He resigned from the police department and enrolled in the International Center of Photography. His images have earned him numerous accolades, though not everyone is a fan.

Paul Browne, New York City Police Department's Deputy Commissioner of Public Information, would not comment on the essay nor its depiction of his department, confirming only that Mr Bolfo was employed by the NYPD for 18 months and then resigned. 'Most NYPD officers serve for 20 years or more,' he said.
'We all joined the NYPD in search of something, and I found it in the hallways, stairs, and apartments of the housing projects,' Mr Bolfo said.
The exhibition runs from July 24 until September 9.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/07/25/article-2178940-14371086000005DC-477_964x628.jpg End of Days: Officers Bianco, left, and Lane, right, use a '10-62 Personal' break to catch their breath from fighting crime on the roof of a Milbrook Housing Project in Mott Haven. Because civilians are not allowed on the roof of housing projects, cops can lower their guard and relax



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2178940/The-NYPD-blues-Antonio-Bolfo-chronicles-boredom-depression-chaos-rookie-officers-face-streets-New-York-City.html#ixzz21l4ZquSg

[SWRichmond]

The entire regulatory state, from which flows the benefits of political patronage, rent-seeking, and campaign contributions, is based on writing laws to prevent things that "might happen," not to punish things that do happen.

Edit: I will never condone or allow the use of the woes and misdeeds of the massive underclasses, whose ranks are swelled through the misappropriation of monies stolen from me by the government, to be used as an excuse for the seizure of still more of my property and what's left of my liberty and civil rights. No. It's tough being a cop, in large part because of the permanent underclass whose existence is fostered by the government.

[Horn]

The passages are narrow and dark, providing victims with no warning before they are attacked

Royal Architects and city planners include those dirty little hidey holes for a reason.

Depopulation agenda.

[slowbell]

The fact that you compare theft to speeding proves to me that you STILL dont understand Law. One of these crimes has an injured party, the other does not. Please refer to the Minority Report movie ad MR posted.

[B]Theft is based in REALITY. Speeding is based on PRECRIME.

This is the whole point I was trying to make! All you are doing, is pitching my exact point right back at me.

There is only 2 choices here. 1) Either you support the spirit of the law or you 2) against the spirit of the law. And follow the letter of the law only.

You seem to want to follow the letter of the law. That includes tickets. Cops don't write the vehicle codes. If you don't allow cops to do what's right in individual situations, you deserve every ticket you get.

When you calm down and wish to have a discussion, let me know. Telling me to wake up, and taking my own thoughts and throwing them back at me, is fucking annoying.

[Skirnir_]

This tempest in a teapot is tedious and tiresome. By centring one's arguments on law, one has effectively played into the hands of statists, slowbell included. What is this baloney about law, as if decrees from gangs of thieves in state houses and Congress have ever been legitimate?

[sirgonzo420]

This is the whole point I was trying to make! All you are doing, is pitching my exact point right back at me.

There is only 2 choices here. 1) Either you support the spirit of the law or you 2) against the spirit of the law. And follow the letter of the law only.

You seem to want to follow the letter of the law. That includes tickets. Cops don't write the vehicle codes. If you don't allow cops to do what's right in individual situations, you deserve every ticket you get.

When you calm down and wish to have a discussion, let me know. Telling me to wake up, and taking my own thoughts and throwing them back at me, is fucking annoying.


Solid.


Crime is when there is a VICTIM.

No VICTIM, no CRIME.

Police are hired by the State to enforce policy under color of law.


Here's a quick "cheat-sheet" for deciding on whether or not a crime has been committed:

1) Was there a victim?

2) If the answer to question #1 is yes, then it is a crime. If not, then it is not a crime.


Let's try it out!

"Hey, that guy in that Corvette was 'speeding'! He musta been goin' 90 mph, and the signs around here say "65 mph limit" on them! He must be committing a crime!"

1) Was there a victim... a real VICTIM and not some abstract concept of the State being somehow damaged by the act of someone "speeding"?

2) If #1 is no, then no CRIME.

See how easy?

[sirgonzo420]

This tempest in a teapot is tedious and tiresome. By centring one's arguments on law, one has effectively played into the hands of statists, slowbell included. What is this baloney about law, as if decrees from gangs of thieves in state houses and Congress have ever been legitimate?

Do not mistake the State's perceived authority as being synonymous with '"law".

The gist of "law" is not to cause harm to others, not to damage or steal the property of others, and not to use fraud in your contracts. Other than that, you can lawfully do as you wish.

Your mileage may vary with the armed gang known as the State who try to enforce their opinions.

[slowbell]

Solid.


Crime is when there is a VICTIM.

No VICTIM, no CRIME.

Police are hired by the State to enforce policy under color of law.


Here's a quick "cheat-sheet" for deciding on whether or not a crime has been committed:

1) Was there a victim?

2) If the answer to question #1 is yes, then it is a crime. If not, then it is not a crime.


Let's try it out!

"Hey, that guy in that Corvette was 'speeding'! He musta been goin' 90 mph, and the signs around here say "65 mph limit" on them! He must be committing a crime!"

1) Was there a victim... a real VICTIM and not some abstract concept of the State being somehow damaged by the act of someone "speeding"?

2) If #1 is no, then no CRIME.

See how easy?

Sirgonzo, I agree with you 100%. Again, that was my whole point to Sui. I'm starting to want to bang my head against the wall in frustration.

It is the very spirit of the law that allows cops the leeway to not issue tickets for speeding.

You can't have it both ways. Cops do NOT write the laws. By advocating cops be mindless drones, without any interpretation given each individual situation, every single law (speeding included) must be enforced regardless.

[Skirnir_]

Do not mistake the State's perceived authority as being synonymous with '"law".

The gist of "law" is not to cause harm to others, not to damage or steal the property of others, and not to use fraud in your contracts. Other than that, you can lawfully do as you wish.

Your mileage may vary with the armed gang known as the State who try to enforce their opinions.

I beg pardon; I neglected to take into account alternate meanings of the law, especially as Bastiat would have defined it.

[Horn]

There is only 2 choices here. 1) Either you support the spirit of the law or 2) edit strike> you are against the spirit of the law.

No ifs, ands or buts about it.

Neither of which does, or has anything to do with cops in general.

[sunshine05]

I think some of us have really seen first hand how corrupt cops are. I had NO idea it was this bad until watching the Cooper trial. They lied on the stand, outright lied. They "updated" their notes to make Brad appear guilty. They ignored key witnesses who could have led to the real killer and they destroyed evidence. This was not just one bad cop. This was the police chief, the 3 lead detectives and the regular cops. If I hadn't seen it myself, I would never have believed it could be so systemic. What can a citizen do in a situation like this? Absolutely nothing. There is no entity that can come in and say "corruption exists and something will be done about it. People will be fired", because the mayor and town manager stand by these dirty, disgusting, crooked cops. I highlight it and post videos of it as much as I can. I send this information to the council members. Guess what? Nothing has been done about it. The SBI is just as corrupt (recently found to have tampered with blood and DNA evidence in a number of cases). So we have to put up with it, while an innocent man rots in prison. And who knows what else they are up to. I will never, ever trust a cop again. Not that I ever really did. I just didn't know it was as bad as it is.

[midnight rambler]

Cops do NOT write the laws.

No, many of them enforce the 'statutes' as they see fit, regardless of what any given statute actually states. lol

Personal experience: the statutes absolutely back up my position relative to ownership of my private automobile without ANY doubt (i.e. NO requirement WHATSOEVER for it to be 'registered'), but that's not the way the brainwashed donut-munching numbskull fucks see it. Fortunately my custom made tag keeps them in check >99% of the time, it's that 1% of pure criminal thuggery that's distressing.

[Cebu_4_2]

No, many of them enforce the 'statutes' as they see fit, regardless of what any given statute actually states. lol

Personal experience: the statutes actually back up my position relative to ownership of my private automobile without ANY doubt (i.e. NO requirement WHATSOEVER for it to be 'registered'), but that's not the way the brainwashed donut-munching fucks see it. Fortunately my custom made tag keeps them in check >99% of the time, it's that 1% of pure thuggery that's distressing.

What is your custom made tag say?

[midnight rambler]

What is your custom made tag say?

It could merely say 'PRIVATE PROPERTY' to the same effect, but it says something else.

[slowbell]

What is your custom made tag say?

I am curious too, midnight.

[sirgonzo420]

The RAMPANT, SYSTEMIC, INSTITUTIONALIZED corruption and general hypocrisy, criminality, and evil doing is pretty horrifying and wholly unacceptable to a Liberty-loving society.

Here's one quick example from Kentucky (as written about in the book "The Bluegrass Conspiracy"):

from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_C._Thornton_II

Andrew C. Thornton II (1945–1985) was a head member of "The Company", a drug smuggling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_smuggling) ring in Kentucky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky). The son of Carter and Peggy Thornton of Threave Main Stud (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Threave_Main_Stud&action=edit&redlink=1) farm in southern Bourbon County, Kentucky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourbon_County,_Kentucky). Drew grew up living a privileged life in the Lexington, Kentucky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexington,_Kentucky) area and attended the private Sayre School (http://www.sayreschool.org/) with many other Lexington blue bloods. He later transferred to Sewanee Military Academy (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sewanee_Military_Academy&action=edit&redlink=1) and then joined the Army (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army) as a paratrooper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paratrooper). After quitting the Army, he became a Lexington police officer [1] (http://www.lfucg.com/police/index.asp) on the narcotics task force. He then attended the University of Kentucky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Kentucky) Law School (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Kentucky_College_of_Law). During his tenure, he began smuggling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smuggling) [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_C._Thornton_II#cite_note-0).
Thornton had a criminal conviction for drug possession while he engaged in drug trafficking. On a particular smuggling run from Colombia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colombia), having dumped packages of cocaine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine) off near the Blairsville, N. Georgia (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Blairsville,_N._Georgia&action=edit&redlink=1), Andrew jumped from his auto-piloted Cessna 404 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_404)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_C._Thornton_II#cite_note-1). In the September 11, 1985 jump, he was caught in his parachute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachute) and ended up in a free fall to the ground. His dead body was found in the back yard of Knoxville, Tennessee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville,_Tennessee) resident Fred Myers[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_C._Thornton_II#cite_note-2). The plane crashed over 60 miles away in Hayesville, North Carolina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayesville,_North_Carolina)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_C._Thornton_II#cite_note-3). At death Thornton was wearing night vision goggles, a bulletproof vest, Gucci loafers, and a green Army duffel bag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duffel_bag) containing approximately 40 kilos (79 lbs.) of cocaine valued at $15 million, $4,500 in cash, knives, and two pistols (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistols). Three months later, a dead black bear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_black_bear) was found in the Chattahoochee National Forest that had apparently overdosed on cocaine dropped by Thornton.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_C._Thornton_II#cite_note-4)
The story of Andrew C. Thornton II was examined in Dominick Dunne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominick_Dunne)'s Power, Privilege, and Justice and in Sally Denton's The Bluegrass Conspiracy.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_C._Thornton_II#cite_note-5) Robert L. Williams, Cowboys Caravan, looks into the death of his son David, and his skydiving relationship with Drew Thornton. Andrew “Drew” Thornton was also detailed in a Discovery Channel double-length episode of “The FBI Files (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_FBI_Files)” named “Dangerous Company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dangerous_Company)” in 2003.



To make things worse, the corruption in Kentucky has been widespread for decades... here is a book that is by a former police officer who witnessed the widespread corruption involving bribes, gambling, prostitution, drugs, and sex-parties with college football players and women and german shepherds and Rock Hudson and all measure of other weird shite in the 1950's (lol... the "good ol' 'Andy Griffith' days of policemen"):

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41IwEvE-U2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg


Here's a recent article that was on Drudge the other day that discusses the widespread vote buying that occurs every election in Kentucky (and of course, a great deal of other places).

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/25/drug-money-funds-voter-fraud-in-kentucky/

Sheriffs will have a patron drug-dealer (or they will be their own, as often occurs) who will buy them votes and insure their election. In eastern Kentucky specifically, virtually every single vote is for sale, at a price. The article pins the average price at $50 but one dealer paid as high as $800.




So you see, slowbell, our problem with cops is similar to our problem with the khazar "jews". Their absolutely deplorable behavior patterns.

[midnight rambler]

I am curious too, midnight.

All you need to understand is that I hold the Manufacturer's Certificate rather than the state. The statutes prohibit TXDOT from issuing 'registration' on an automobile for which no CERTIFICATE OF TITLE has been issued, and the ONLY way to acquire a CERTIFICATE OF TITLE is to 'deliver' (surrender) the Manufacturer's Certificate (NOT even a 'certified copy', the original ONLY, I tried with several TXDOT bureaurats and they all demanded the original) to the state. Whomever holds the Manufacturer's Certificate is ultimately the owner of the automobile, i.e. the Manufacturer's Certificate is more important than actual physical possession.

FWIW, in Texas there's no such statutory crime as 'automobile theft', the actual criminal statute is "unauthorized use of a motor vehicle" - and THAT speaks VOLUMES if you comprehend what 'legal terms' are.

[slowbell]

So you see, slowbell, our problem with cops is similar to our problem with the khazar "jews". Their absolutely deplorable behavior patterns.

I saw none of it personally gonzo. The only corrupt unethical thing I saw, was when we all started eating at a restaurant, after 3rd watch around 2 am in the morning...we would get half off our meals for being LE.

[sirgonzo420]

I saw none of it personally gonzo. The only corrupt unethical thing I saw, was when we all started eating at a restaurant, after 3rd watch around 2 am in the morning...we would get half off our meals for being LE.

You must not have been there long at all if that's all the corruption you witnessed.

I wonder how many of your fellow officers carried little baggies of dope and drop guns "just in case".

[slowbell]

You must not have been there long at all if that's all the corruption you witnessed.

I wonder how many of your fellow officers carried little baggies of dope and drop guns "just in case".

The dope stinks, it smells up your whole uniform. As far as drop guns, I'm not sure. It was a violent area, most cops carried multiple guns anyway, at least one back up. The guy who had the locker next to mine, carried the most, 5 guns on him. He always said you couldn't have too many backups. If there was any drop guns, I'm sure it was in the minority of officers.

[midnight rambler]

FIVE guns?? lol I guarantee you that at least ONE of those five guns could not be traced back to him. lololololol

There's two reasons and two reasons ONLY for carrying a back-up gun as a cop:

1) You FAIL at weapon retention and the bad guy takes your holstered primary sidearm away from you, either directly out of the holster or out of your hand(s)
2) Weapon malfunction*

*IF you're carrying a proven, high quality service pistol then there's almost no chance of it letting you down - rather than carrying FIVE fucking guns, it's far better to carry extra magazines. If it were me I'd be carrying a Glock 22 or 31 with a G27 or G33 respectively as back-up and then the full size mags would work in both.

FIVE guns?? The guy was shining you on...or just plain stupid. Carrying FIVE guns would drastically affect one's mobility, not to mention the problem of trying to retain/keep track of FIVE fucking guns in a struggle. lol

[slowbell]

FIVE guns?? lol I guarantee you that at least ONE of those five guns could not be traced back to him. lololololol

There's two reasons and two reasons ONLY for carrying a back-up gun as a cop:

1) You FAIL at weapon retention and the bad guy takes it away from you
2) Weapon malfunction*

*IF you're carrying a proven, high quality service pistol then there's almost no chance of it letting you down - rather than carrying FIVE fucking guns, it's far better to carry extra magazines. If it were me I'd be carrying a Glock 22 or 31 with a G27 or G33 respectively as back-up and then the full size mags would work in both.

FIVE guns?? The guy was shining you on...or just plain stupid. Carrying FIVE cops would drastically affect one's mobility, not to mention the problem of trying to retain FIVE fucking guns in a struggle. lol

As I posted, it was a violent area. I saw that guy load up before line-up, he had 5 guns. His thought was, that if he lost control of his main gun in a fight, he wanted to be able to reach for a backup during the fight, so he kept several in different areas on his body, which ever one he could reach the quickest, if needed. It makes sense, in that regard, though I never applied that practice. I did carry one back up though. A glock 27.

[Santa]

What's an average probationary period for a cop job?

[Santa]

The RAMPANT, SYSTEMIC, INSTITUTIONALIZED corruption and general hypocrisy, criminality, and evil doing is pretty horrifying and wholly unacceptable to a Liberty-loving society.

Excellent post, sirgonz.

I think corruption has become endemic in pretty much all establishment Institutions these days.
Although, any Institution that exists for the purpose of maintaining control over a population is the most likely to become corrupt.

[Heimdhal]

FIVE guns?? lol I guarantee you that at least ONE of those five guns could not be traced back to him. lololololol

There's two reasons and two reasons ONLY for carrying a back-up gun as a cop:

1) You FAIL at weapon retention and the bad guy takes your holstered primary sidearm away from you, either directly out of the holster or out of your hand(s)
2) Weapon malfunction*

*IF you're carrying a proven, high quality service pistol then there's almost no chance of it letting you down - rather than carrying FIVE fucking guns, it's far better to carry extra magazines. If it were me I'd be carrying a Glock 22 or 31 with a G27 or G33 respectively as back-up and then the full size mags would work in both.

FIVE guns?? The guy was shining you on...or just plain stupid. Carrying FIVE guns would drastically affect one's mobility, not to mention the problem of trying to retain/keep track of FIVE fucking guns in a struggle. lol

^This

[slowbell]

^This

FWIW, that's what I did. I was issued a Glock 22, I bought a Glock 27 as a back, off duty weapon. Mags worked in both. Carried 2 mags on the belt, had over 60 rounds, not counting the 9 in the glock 27 as backup.

Not trying to defend the 5 gun guy, but he had a point. You folks don't know this area, but it's bad.

It starts out with one backup gun, then you add another, on your ankle....then you want one on your other ankle too. Etc. You don't start out that way, the area you patrol and your experiences add to it. That dude has a family to go home to at the end of the day.

[Tumbleweed]

In this video Sheriff Richard Mack and Jack McLamb discuss the role of the county sheriff and their duties. Their duty is to protect the god given rights, spelled out in the constitution of the citizens of the county who voted them in to office. The power they have comes from the citizens of the county. They speak about the fact that law enforcement now sees the citizens as an adversary rather than those who's rights they swore and oath to serve.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQJb69x_E8Y

[horseshoe3]

You must not have been there long at all if that's all the corruption you witnessed.


I think you hit on the crux of the situation. I've always thought of Slowbell as a good guy who seems like a naive apologist for the police. I wondered how he could have been a cop and still think they are all as pure as the driven snow.

Earlier in this thread he said he was a sworn officer for 4 months. This was probably not enough time for the other cops to trust that he was corrupt enough to let him into the inner club. He spent some time in the outer club, thought he saw it all and now can honestly say to us that he was a cop and never saw any corruption among his brothers.

[LuckyStrike]

To see the truth, and not be blinded by fear or hatred towards police.

I'm not blinded by my hatred of police whatsoever if that is what you are insinuating.

[LuckyStrike]

FIVE guns?? lol I guarantee you that at least ONE of those five guns could not be traced back to him. lololololol

There's two reasons and two reasons ONLY for carrying a back-up gun as a cop:

1) You FAIL at weapon retention and the bad guy takes your holstered primary sidearm away from you, either directly out of the holster or out of your hand(s)
2) Weapon malfunction*

*IF you're carrying a proven, high quality service pistol then there's almost no chance of it letting you down - rather than carrying FIVE fucking guns, it's far better to carry extra magazines. If it were me I'd be carrying a Glock 22 or 31 with a G27 or G33 respectively as back-up and then the full size mags would work in both.

FIVE guns?? The guy was shining you on...or just plain stupid. Carrying FIVE guns would drastically affect one's mobility, not to mention the problem of trying to retain/keep track of FIVE fucking guns in a struggle. lol

Another reason,

3) Cop shoots you and plants weapon on you.

[LuckyStrike]

I think you hit on the crux of the situation. I've always thought of Slowbell as a good guy who seems like a naive apologist for the police. I wondered how he could have been a cop and still think they are all as pure as the driven snow.

Earlier in this thread he said he was a sworn officer for 4 months. This was probably not enough time for the other cops to trust that he was corrupt enough to let him into the inner club. He spent some time in the outer club, thought he saw it all and now can honestly say to us that he was a cop and never saw any corruption among his brothers.

I think you are right.


I met what I considered to be a good cop one time. Like one as in not describing the time but the actual number of good cops. He had been in the Navy for 20-30 years, really laid back, seemed like a regular guy. A couple years later I asked another cop in his county "whatever happened to xxx" The cop told me he left after a few months.

Anyone who is worth a damn as a human being would see the light and hit the door. Anyone who aspires to be a cop is a fuck, plain and simple.

[midnight rambler]

Earlier in this thread he said he was a sworn officer for 4 months. This was probably not enough time for the other cops to trust that he was corrupt enough to let him into the inner club. He spent some time in the outer club, thought he saw it all and now can honestly say to us that he was a cop and never saw any corruption among his brothers.

aka 'the Herman Cain syndrome'

[Twisted Titan]

I think you are right.


I met what I considered to be a good cop one time. Like one as in not describing the time but the actual number of good cops. He had been in the Navy for 20-30 years, really laid back, seemed like a regular guy. A couple years later I asked another cop in his county "whatever happened to xxx" The cop told me he left after a few months.

Anyone who is worth a damn as a human being would see the light and hit the door. Anyone who aspires to be a cop is a fuck, plain and simple.


The magic number is about 5-7 years after that point the cop in question can no longer claim ingnorance....they KNOW just what happens behind the scences and they have to make a choice either make a stand for their morals or shut the hell up and and make sure their milk money keeps flowing.


We know what most of them do............ which is why the majority get zero respect from me because they stand pat while innconcent lives are ruined on fictious bullsh!t

[BrewTech]

This is the whole point I was trying to make! All you are doing, is pitching my exact point right back at me.

There is only 2 choices here. 1) Either you support the spirit of the law or you 2) against the spirit of the law. And follow the letter of the law only.

You seem to want to follow the letter of the law. That includes tickets. Cops don't write the vehicle codes. If you don't allow cops to do what's right in individual situations, you deserve every ticket you get.

When you calm down and wish to have a discussion, let me know. Telling me to wake up, and taking my own thoughts and throwing them back at me, is fucking annoying.

There is no law governing the velocity of a motor vehicle, only policy.

(Ya know I love ya, bro, but right is right...)

[Skirnir_]

We know what most of them do............ which is why the majority get zero respect from me because they stand pat while innconcent lives are ruined on fictious bullsh!t

No need to censor one's fucking profanity.

Not counting legal fees, it is nearly impossible to get a second passport with even a misdemeanour (aside from traffic tickets).

[Twisted Titan]

No need to censor one's fucking profanity.

Not counting legal fees, it is nearly impossible to get a second passport with even a misdemeanour (aside from traffic tickets).




Cant have the possiblity of Productive People having the option to flee tyranny when the State Terror Machince goes into overdrive now can we??

[Skirnir_]

Cant have the possiblity of Productive People having the option to flee tyranny when the State Terror Machince goes into overdrive now can we??

That seems to be the idea. That is one of the reasons I go to great lengths to avoid cops and their quotas; not driving helps with that.

[Hatha Sunahara]

There is no law governing the velocity of a motor vehicle, only policy.

(Ya know I love ya, bro, but right is right...)

The irony is that we call them 'Law enforcement officers'. They have jurisdiction over 'policy abiding citizens'. They all work for 'for profit' corporations that are licensed to steal from the public in the form of what they call 'taxes'. They protect only those who sign their paychecks. They are a scourge on the body politic.

Hatha

[Jewboo]

That's a lot of cops, but damnit, enough about the donuts!

7 months in academy, 4 months sworn, and not one donut. None of us ate them, ever. You try chasing down some turd with over 25 lbs of gear around your waste and wearing a bullet proof vest.

The first thing I did when I resigned? You guessed it, went out and ate a donut.

When quitter "Hitch" was slowbell before he quit/deleted/reinvented himself five more times...this most-recent time he just reappears again under the "Hitch" name after quitting (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?101727-20-million-now-quarantined-in-China-from-Coronavirus&p=960088&viewfull=1#post960088)...lol.

:D

[Cebu_4_2]

When quitter "Hitch" was slowbell before he quit/deleted/reinvented himself five more times...this most-recent time he just reappears again under the "Hitch" name after quitting (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?101727-20-million-now-quarantined-in-China-from-Coronavirus&p=960088&viewfull=1#post960088)...lol.

:D

He has much more experience to add? Asking for a friend..

[Hitch]

When quitter "Hitch" was slowbell before he quit/deleted/reinvented himself five more times...this most-recent time he just reappears again under the "Hitch" name after quitting (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?101727-20-million-now-quarantined-in-China-from-Coronavirus&p=960088&viewfull=1#post960088)...lol.

:D

Jeez, you really don't like me, do you? If you are taking time and energy out of your day to troll me, in a time of crisis, like this. That really says a lot.

Go outside and get some fresh air.

[Cebu_4_2]

Jeez, you really don't like me, do you? If you are taking time and energy out of your day to troll me, in a time of crisis, like this. That really says a lot.

Go outside and get some fresh air.

The air outside isn't really fresh anymore man.

[osoab]

When quitter "Hitch" was slowbell before he quit/deleted/reinvented himself five more times...this most-recent time he just reappears again under the "Hitch" name after quitting (http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?101727-20-million-now-quarantined-in-China-from-Coronavirus&p=960088&viewfull=1#post960088)...lol.

:D

Bringing up an 8 year old thread?

[Awoke]

If cops would stop robbing people through taxation-via-fines for victimless crimes, and they soley focused on keeping people safe from bad guys, I would support them.

But as it stands now, they are nothing more than the strong arm for government policy.

[osoab]

If cops would stop robbing people through taxation-via-fines for victimless crimes, and they soley focused on keeping people safe from bad guys, I would support them.

But as it stands now, they are nothing more than the strong arm for government policy.

Can we blame propagandized/compartmentalized foot soldiers trained from birth to obey perceived authority?

[EE_]

If cops would stop robbing people through taxation-via-fines for victimless crimes, and they soley focused on keeping people safe from bad guys, I would support them.

But as it stands now, they are nothing more than the strong arm for government policy.

Police have no responsibility to protect individuals

Police have no legal duty to respond and prevent crime or protect the victim. There have BEEN OVER 10 various supreme and state court cases the individual has never won. Notably, the Supreme Court STATED about the responsibility of police for the security of your family and loved ones is "You, and only you, are responsible for your security and the security of your family and loved ones. That was the essence of a U.S. Supreme Court decision in the early 1980's when they ruled that the police do not have a duty to protect you as an individual, but to protect society as a whole."

"It is well-settled fact of American law that the police have no legal duty to protect any individual citizen from crime, even if the citizen has received death threats and the police have negligently failed to provide protection."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1976377/posts

[EE_]

Some good info, what do you think?

Street robberies and you - The Basics

While many say it is better to be lucky than good, no one is lucky every time. In this post I am going to attempt to provide some insight into street encounters. Other may have different viewpoints. I am not here to argue. I will say some of the comments I have seen posted in the threads about this sort of matter make me realize that while some ARFCOMMERS are clearly street veterans others are not. This is really for those who are not.

Background

First, my info. I worked in the street of one of America's most violent, dangerous cities for 15 years. I usually worked in the worst part of that city. I spent 15 years in patrol. I liked patrol. It was wild. Most of the time I worked in areas covered in ghetto. By that I mean large housing projects combined with run down slum housing. I have worked all shifts. Later I became an investigator including a robbery investigator. I have spent countless hours in interrogation rooms talking to hold up men. I know them. I am still an investigator but have quit playing the Robbery game because my family was starting to forget what I looked like.

The Enemy

Some may object to me calling hold up men "the enemy". You can call them whatever you like. I can assure you however they are as deadly an enemy as you will find anywhere but the battlefield. Even many soldiers probably lack the viciousness and utter disregard for life most hold up men possess.

No one wakes up in the morning one day and decides to become an armed robber. It is a gradual process that requires some experience and desensitizing. Before a man will pick up a gun and threaten to kill people who have done him no harm in order to get their usually meager possessions he has to get comfortable with some things.

He has to get used to seeing others as objects for him to exploit. He has to accept he may be killed while robbing. He has to accept the felony conviction for Robbery will haunt him all his life. He has to accept he may need to kill a completely innocent person to get away with his crime.

This is a process that starts with stealing candy at the corner store as a child. It progresses through bigger property crimes that may also involve violence. But one day G gets tired of selling his stolen property for nothing and decides it would be better to steal cash. Cut out all that tiresome sales stuff.

Keep in mind many petty thieves, auto burglars, residential and commercial burglars, paper thieves, and hustlers will get to that point and decide not to become armed robbers. Most will. It is a special group of outliers who decide threatening to kill people for a few dollars is the way to go.

Once a man starts armed robbing he has crossed a line most won't. Don't forget that when you are looking these bastards in the eye. Their decision to kill you is already made. Your life means nothing to him. Only his does. His sole motivation for not killing you is he doesn't want a murder case. He has already accepted he may pick one up though.

We hunt hold up men around the clock once they are identified. We send teams of fire breathing fence jumper/door kickers to find them. We will bring their mother to the office and convince her she is going to jail if we don't have Junior in our office in an hour. We have her call her son crying hysterically for him to turn himself in before she is arrested and held without bond as a material witness and her home seized for harboring him. Most of the time they won't. Fuck their own momma.

We will hit all Juniors friends and family's houses. We make it so no one will harbor him. He is so hot no one will let him in their house or even talk on the phone with him. We put money on him so he knows he is right to be betrayed and set up. We do this because of one thing.

That thing is they WILL kill someone if they keep robbing. That is why the city is willing to pay all the overtime. They don't want the murders. Think about that when you see Junior coming. The more robberies he does the closer he is to killing someone. Maybe you.

The guys who hit you on the street are gang members. They are Gangster Disciples, Vice Lords, Crips, Sureonos, many others. They do not see themselves as part of society. The street is all they know. They don't expect to live long or stay out of prison. They take a delight in your fear and suffering. They are warped individuals for the most part. They can be extremely dangerous.

One time we were locking up a hold up man and having a conversation about how they target their victims. I was saying they pick easy ones, another guy was saying they preferred easy ones but would take anybody.

I pointed out a uniform Officer there was an NFL size guy to that hold up man. Frankly the dude was a monster. I asked hold up man if he would rob him. He said "If I needed the money".

You

Chances are good you are a law abiding person except for maybe a little light weed smoking and maybe driving a little drunk every once in a while. Most of your life you have been taught to be nice and don't point guns at people. You are the exact opposite of your enemy who was taught just the opposite. Remember a lot of street life is like prison life. Who's the man is everything. Violence is the currency of the street.

You do not possess total disregard for the lives of others and do not want to kill anyone. You are concerned about the ramifications of shooting someone. Your family, your possessions and finances on the line. Your enemy has none of these concerns.

The laws that keep you from carrying your gun in bars or where ever mean nothing to your enemy. Your reluctance to shoot someone works to is advantage. His greater experience in street violence and the element of surprise is on his side.

Everyone should call their local FBI office and get a copy of Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted. When it first came out it was ground breaking because it demonstrated to academics and other elites what street police knew all along. What did it show in interviews with cop killers? Nice guys finish dead. That's right. Most of those offenders commented that the Officer they killed set himself up to be killed because of reluctance to use force early in the encounter.

You can probably find it on line now. A lot of the victim Officers were a lot like a lot of other people, normal people. They were the opposite of their enemy.

Am I advocating becoming the enemy? No. I am saying the person who is robbing you has certain traits, attitudes, and background. That is all.

Dynamics of Encounters

Hold up men target victims on the street in an impulsive, opportunistic manner. They see someone and make a quick judgment call on whether to rob them. The time between when you are targeted and they are on you isn't long. Therefore, situational awareness is everything.

If you see G coming you are in good shape. If you don't you will be the victim who says "He came out of nowhere". No he didn't. There are many tricks to watching out but simply watching your back is the main thing. Watch your back. If you do it enough it becomes second nature and you won't even realize you are doing it.

Watching out is great but unfortunately many self defense courses stop there. You have parked you car in a well lit area, are aware of your surroundings, and looky here, here comes three guys across the parking lot and they start to kind of fan out.

When you lock eyes with G the very first thing you need to do it indicate you have a weapon. It doesn't matter if you do or not. If you are a woman put your gun hand in your purse and keep it there. If you are a man fan your shirt or coat tail with your gun hand. Make it clear to dude you are mentally prepared to draw and making sure your gun is clear. This will many times result in an about face by dude. It is the single best robbery avoidance tactic IMHO.

Not long ago I was walking down the sidewalk in my town to go get my car. I was holding a folding chair in my gun hand. A car slow rolled past me with 4 heads in it. The guys in the back seat turned around as they went by looking at me. They went a little farther and U turned in the street.

Here they come back. As they started to slow down I looked at them with as contemptuous a look as I could muster and switched the chair to my left hand and flicked my shirt tail with my right hand. They just drove on mad dogging me.

In another case I was at a Christmas party and walked a girl to her car about 3 am. As we said our good-byes two guys were walking across the parking lot. One went behind a dumpster. I though he was peeing. He came out from behind the dumpster with a bottle.

As they got closer I stepped clear of that girl and unzipped my jacket at those two guys. When I did the guy threw down the bottle and they walked by cussing at me. If someone challenges you after you indicate you are armed say "I don't have a gun". Then they will know you do.

Here is an opposite story. A girl my brother knows was walking her dog when a guy approached her. She was polite. Mistake. He talked to her about the dog and said she had pretty hair and reached out and touched her hair. She did not slap his hand down or aggressively object. Mistake. He asked her if her dog bit and she said "No". At that time he slapped the shit out of her, drug her into a wooded area, and raped her.

The answer in the street is always "No". Can I ask you something? No. Do you have a cigarette? No. Can you tell me what time it is? No. The answer is always "No". Don't be nice. Stop the encounter as soon as it starts.

When to draw

Despite warnings I often see on the Net I have yet to encounter an instance in which a hold up man called the police to report his intended victim threatened to shoot him. Thugs do not want to come into contact with the police. They may already be wanted or realize chances are good they have been identified in a recent robbery. Or what ever. They are not going to call the police if you draw on them.

Supposed two guys are approaching you in a parking lot and do the classic fan out maneuver. You indicate you have a weapon by clearing your gun hand and fanning your jacket at them. They are not discouraged. DRAW!

I am not saying you should pull your gun out, assume a Weaver stance, and scream "That's close enough motherfuckers!" What I am saying is draw your gun and hold it beside your leg as you start to move to cover. I am very fond of telephone poles. Anything will do though. They will see this. They will remember they have to be somewhere else. They will not call the police.

Then you can just put your gun back in the holster and go back to whatever you were doing like nothing happened. Why? Because nothing did happen. A happening is when shots are fired.

Do not hesitate to draw. If you are somewhere you are supposed to be and someone appears who is not supposed to be there like a closed business show him the end of your gun. Could it be Mother Teresa looking for her lost cat behind your closed business? No it is some motherfucker up to no good. He won't call the police to report he was prowling a location when a guy ran him off.

When to shoot

The time to shoot is immediately upon seeing his weapon. You are not a police man who has to try to arrest the guy. No need to scream at him. No exposure while you yell for him to drop the gun.

In deer hunting the experienced hunter takes the first good shot. May not be the perfect shot but it never is. Novices pass up a doable shot waiting for a better shot and then the deer is gone. Take the first good shot you are offered. Hopefully your alertness and hostile cues will prevent you ever having to fire. But once you see his weapon, shoot.

If a guy is coming at you with a gun in his hand shoot him. Shoot him right then. If you don't shoot first you may not shoot at all. I have known more than one person who was shot and received life changing injuries and also shot their attacker. Their only regret was not shooting sooner. Like Bill Jordan said "Nothing disturbs your enemy's aim like a slug delivered to the belt buckle area".

Guns and weapons

The handgun is the best weapon you can carry easily. I understand it is not always possible to have one due to laws, restrictions, whatever. I am not telling anyone to disregard laws about carrying weapons. Each person has to decide for themselves what they are comfortable with. I will say there is no substitute for a pistol when you need one.

Also if you can not be trusted with a pistol after a few drinks you can't be trusted with a pistol period. Booze is liquid bad judgment no doubt but it shouldn't make you into a damn moron. If you are a moron sober I don't know what to tell you.

Types of guns and ammo are always debated and probably always will be. I have seen people shot with all common calibers. My conclusion is if you hit someone between the collar bone and the tip of their ribs three times with anything, they are handled. Bigger is better but something is better than nothing. Get your front sight on his shirt and stay on him as long as he is standing with whatever gun you have.

Just have a gun with sure fire ammo. Draw early and fire immediately upon seeing his weapon. That course of action is about all you can do to up your odds of ending things favorably. Guns like the Ruger LC9, SIG 239, Glock 26/27 are examples of guns small enough to carry but with enough power and capacity to be useful. Do not be afraid to use a French Lebelle if that is the only gun you have. A gun is a gun. I like a Glock 19.

Training

We all want the best training. It can be expensive if you are having to pay for it and it can be hard to find the time to do it. There is a whole lot of BS out there. What can you do? First, pistol handling is not rocket surgery. If you will learn the basics and practice on your own you can be fine. Smooth draw, quick pairs, reload. If you know those things well you can be OK.

I know a young man who shot down two hold up men in 2010 at very close range while he and his GF were walking home from the store. He in Wyatt Earp like fashion ignored the fire coming from the gunman and killed him and wounded his accomplice. He nor his GF were injured. He like many was willing to give them the money until he picked up on nonverbal cues that because of his GF they were not quite satisfied with the money. He had a Glock 27.

He had only the most basic of training in gun handling but did do some draws and some dry fire a couple times a week and live fired maybe once a month. That basic skill combined with knowing what to do was enough. He shot at the first possible moment despite having let the guys get the drop on them. When the gunman turned his head because a car drove by that was the opening. A split second is a long time sometimes.

Work on some one hand shooting at close range. That is a skill not as popular as it once was and you want to use two hands when you can. Often you can find yourself doing something with your off hand though so be able to shoot with one hand out to 5 yards or so.

After

If it comes to pass you are forced to shoot someone do not feel bad. When the police come just tell them a guy threatened you with deadly force and you were forced to fire. I know there are bad police out there in some parts of the country who don't support self defense. I can't help you with that.

Do not talk to them until you have your attorney present. Now most young guys don't have an attorney on retainer and you may have no idea who to call. That is OK. You will figure it out but in the mean time don't talk about what happened other than to say you were forced to fire. You don't have to be an asshole just remember wait for your attorney.

Hopefully you will not give a statement for a couple days. Remember if you are put in jail that doesn't mean you are charged. Most places can hold you 48 or 72 hours on a felony before charging you or letting you go. Breath deep and get an attorney.

Expect to never get your gun back. You may get it back one day but maybe not. Do not buy expensive guns for the street. Buy yourself a nice sporting gun if you want a nice gun. Keep your street guns basic. The factory Model 10 Smith and the GI 45 have done a lot of work over the years and aren't fancy.

Worlds

We all live in different worlds. My world is filled with felons and gang members. Violence is common place. No one would be surprised if one of their friends called and said they shot a hold up man at a place of business or parking lot. In the past when I made calls the fact that the guy who is beating his GF is also on parole for 2nd degree murder flavored my world.

You may live in a smaller, less violent place where shootings seldom occur and it would be a rare to shoot a hold up man. I envy you and will be moving to a place like your town as soon as I can.

But be advised no matter where you are a hold man is going to be about the same. Whether he is a home boy or a guy who just exited the interstate into your town and needs some quick money. He is going to have a vicious streak and no regard for your life. Treat him like he treats you.

Giving them the money, doing what they say, all that may work but there is no guarantee. If you have never read Jeff Cooper's book The Principles of Personal Defense I suggest you order a copy immediately. It is a short book but summarizes a lot of important things.

Last year we had a trial here regarding an armed robbery that occurred. Three or four guys took a young couple from a parking garage near a college out by some railroad tracks where they raped, shot, and beat them. Their lives will never be the same.

The lesser thugs all turned on the trigger man at trial. The trigger man's statement in the paper was after all that had happened he felt like he was a victim. Think about that. That is the mindset you are up against.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Street_robberies_and_you___The_Basics/5-1285487/

[woodman]

I have seen this posted here before and it is a damn fine article. I looked for the book he recommends and it is very expensive, even for a used copy.

https://www.valorebooks.com/textbooks/principles-of-personal-defense/9781581604955

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=jeff+cooper+principles+of+personal+defense&crid=KVUQWMOJ5936&sprefix=jeff+cooper%2Caps%2C251&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_11

[Tumbleweed]

I have seen this posted here before and it is a damn fine article. I looked for the book he recommends and it is very expensive, even for a used copy.

https://www.valorebooks.com/textbooks/principles-of-personal-defense/9781581604955

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=jeff+cooper+principles+of+personal+defense&crid=KVUQWMOJ5936&sprefix=jeff+cooper%2Caps%2C251&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_11


You can read it at this link for free or download it.


https://archive.org/details/JeffCooperPrinciplesOfPersonalDefense/mode/2up

[Awoke]

Excellent write up EE_, thank you for sharing that.

[midnight rambler]

I have seen this posted here before and it is a damn fine article. I looked for the book he recommends and it is very expensive, even for a used copy.

https://www.valorebooks.com/textbooks/principles-of-personal-defense/9781581604955

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=jeff+cooper+principles+of+personal+defense&crid=KVUQWMOJ5936&sprefix=jeff+cooper%2Caps%2C251&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_11


I just picked up a copy on feebay for $35, three more available at that price OBO.

[woodman]

I just picked up a copy on feebay for $35, three more available at that price OBO.
I was able to download it through Tumbleweed's link to my kindle app. I have an old I phone 6 plus that has a great screen for reading. I do prefer books though. There is nothing like paging through a book, it just feels right.

[midnight rambler]

I was able to download it through Tumbleweed's link to my kindle app. I have an old I phone 6 plus that has a great screen for reading. I do prefer books though. There is nothing like paging through a book, it just feels right.

I saw his post after I made the purchase. Oh well, I guess I'll have something to read after the lights go out. lol