Epicureanism's Relationship to Other Traditions

[Horn]

Further Developments in Atomistic Philosophy: Epicurus

The history (http://www.epicurus.net/en/history.html) and beliefs (http://www.epicurus.net/en/beliefs.html) of Epicurus and his school are recounted elsewhere on this webstite, but the story of how Greek philosophy developed up through the Hellenistic age provides crucial insights into development of Epicureanism.

Epicurean physics was rooted in the atomistic tradition, with one significant innovation by Epicurus. Epicurus realized that the deterministic character of Democritus's system was fatal to the notion of a freedom of choice that is inherent in any sensible conception of ethics, and that it was also problematic for explaining how inhomogeneities arise in nature. Epicurus therefore introduced the notion of the atomic swerve, where the path of an atom is no longer simply a function of the other atoms it interacts with, but also subject to some random variation. This leads to a strikingly modern conception of physics, where the traditional atomistic conception of particles with fixed identities and variable interrelationships is supplemented by what modern scientists would classify as a quantum indeterminacy.

Given the Skeptic assault on reason, Epicurus's reaction was to formulate canonics as a separate branch of his philosophy, a kind of epistemology that highlights an unconditional acceptance of sensations and thus firmly anchors human knowledge in reality. While other schools stressed subjects like classification and deductive logic, Epicurus realized that the mechanics of reasoning were less important to the philosophical enterprise than comprehending the link between nature and human understanding. Canonics thus became an essential preliminary to the modified atomistic physics.

The capstone of the Epicurean system was its ethics. Certain Sophists from Libya, known as the Cyrenaics, had taken the controversial position that pleasure was the ultimate purpose of life. The various advocates of rational virtues, including Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, and the Stoics had all denounced pleasure-seeking as a threat to virtuous conduct and something fit only for animals, though some like Aristotle and the Stoics were careful to portray the virtuous wise man as being happy in some sense. One of Epicurus's greatest achievements was to refute the false dichotomies of reason versus passion and of virtue versus pleasure-seeking, affirming instead that reason and virtue are highly instrumental to the pleasurable life.

With a number of profound insights about human psychology, Epicurus set aside the naive hedonism of the Cyrenaics and instead undertook a serious examination of what attitudes and patterns of behavior were necessary for optimizing the pursuit of happiness. Using this approach, Epicurus demonstrated that the virtues, understood as broadly-defined constraints on conduct rather than as a script for living the good life, were actually instrumental to optimizing one's pursuit of happiness. Pleasure is indeed the highest good for humans, but the fullest possible appreciation of pleasure creates a need for the prudent management of the flow of pleasures over time and for a mental grasp of the art of living. In short, our best hope for happiness is for reason and pleasure to work together.

Epicurus's empiricism, atomistic materialism, and rational hedonism thus emerged as a powerful counterpoint to the demoralizing retreat from philosophy preached by the Skeptics, and to the philosophical deification of the cosmos and self-abnegation preached by the Stoics.

http://www.epicurus.net/en/relationships.html

[Horn]

Epicureanism and the Judeans

In the Talmudic Mishnah, one of the authoritative documents of Rabbinical Judaism, there is a remarkable statement in the tractate Sanhedrin that defines the Jewish religion in relation to Epicureanism:


“All Israel has a share in the world to come, as Isaiah said: And all of your people who are righteous will merit eternity and inherit the land. And these are the people who do not merit the world to come: The ones who say that there is no resurrection of the dead, and those who deny the Torah is from the heavens, and Epicureans (‘Apikorsim’).”



Modern Jews use “apikoros” as a generic term for an unbeliever, but the authors of the Talmud were clearly singling out followers of Epicurus. In effect, this statement is saying that all of Israel will enjoy eternal life except those who get corrupted by Epicurus or certain characteristic Epicurean beliefs (namely, Epicurean denials of an after-life and of divine providence). This peculiar hostility towards Epicureanism is all the more remarkable for the fact that this particular statement was later taken to be the basis for speculation about the meaning of Jewishness among Rabbis of the Middle Ages, the most famous of whom, Moses Maimonides, explicitly continued the Jewish tradition of denouncing Epicureanism late in the 12th century A.D.

The origins of this anti-Epicurean element of Jewish thought can be traced to the 2nd century B.C., ...

http://www.epicurus.net/en/history.html

[Santa]

Epicurus said,...Mama mia, now thatsa spicy a moutha fulla... Lol.

Cool post, Horn.

[singular_me]

Ohh I didnt know about the Epicurean denials of an after-life and of divine providence).

I think that 'pleasure seeking', especially guided by lust and envy, always ends in tears because of the insatiable aspect of it. Hence a growing frustration as a opposite psychic motion leading to a emotional dead end. 95% of passionate relationships go bust. It is more positive when it is about a career, especially arts.

Animals live in the moment, unlike humans who cant help but project themselves into the future. It is the very time-line that derails "pleasure seeking" eventually -- unless one can indulge without making any projections that subjects others to one's pleasure seeking, and in which case it is truly about the pursuit of happiness. I really can see both sides of the coin here, the glass half empty/full. Pleasure seeking without "self-love" is impossible.

But I also think that society is twisting very badly the meaning of pleasure seeking... all part of the agenda. So not many truly know what is truly pleasurable to them. Back to square one.

Unfortunately, those imposing virtue upon them, are also self-deluded.... that is why asceticism is often linked to deprivation or sufferings. One has to keep oneself in a state of pain (mental or/and physical) to prevent any pleasuring thoughts from surfacing. This is where S&M originates. Pain is associated with pleasure.

There is nothing wrong with desire as long as one doesnt use it as a tool to advance one's aims in any way. There is a reason why many religions warn against it. And this is kinda misleading, because they do not teach the value of selfless pleasures neither, which rather seem impossible to be achieved in the hypermaterialistic world we live in... so here we are full of inner contradictions apparently inextricable.

[Horn]

Not sure about his denying an afterlife, or God? Less concerned with it maybe.

Of course the I died thing on the tombstone is/was self-evident.

Says he believed oneway, but then again didn't put much stock in belief all together...

Some good stuff on that site about the philosophy.

[singular_me]

hello again Horn... yes the time line is responsible for holding us back and subverts our instant needs and desires... I have been pondering this for years... trying to be happy IN the moment whatever I do.... Luckily I have this book by Krishnamurti explaining this in 6 pages or so, so the theory/experience shouldnt be as difficult to master... LOL

will check out this site, tnx

ps: as your 2nd posting mentions the Talmud, I wouldnt expect many to join this thread though, too bad.

[Horn]

But I also think that society is twisting very badly the meaning of pleasure seeking... all part of the agenda. So not many truly know what is truly pleasurable to them. Back to square one.

Obviously very hard to communicate the meaning of contentment, especially thru the written word, Savoring the simple treasures of life itself in the moment.

Human missionary/politico minds are not content without seeking "rewards" of momentary glory, or vain indulgence, or being/feeling content by releasing themselves from wrath, it is seen as death to them. Stuck.

Unknown part & rewards of the releasing wrath (pain), is crystal intuition and contentment with the future. Or effectively completing the "mission" painlessly.

My God wants nothing more for me than to be content with this gift of life, there is nothing more obvious to me than that. I also create painful missions for myself all the time, don't get me wrong. lol

This simply will not do! :)

[singular_me]

Obviously very hard to communicate the meaning of contentment, especially thru the written word, Savoring the simple treasures of life itself in the moment.

Human missionary/politico minds are not content without seeking "rewards" of momentary glory, or vain indulgence, or being/feeling content by releasing themselves from wrath, it is seen as death to them. Stuck.

Unknown part & rewards of the releasing wrath (pain), is crystal intuition and contentment with the future. Or effectively completing the "mission" painlessly.

My God wants nothing more for me than to be content with this gift of life, there is nothing more obvious to me than that. I also create painful missions for myself all the time, don't get me wrong. lol

This simply will not do! :)

very simply put, Horn... yet very complex to put into practice... contentment or happiness become elusive as soon as one wishes them to continue. Living day by day is key, indeed.

The other day, I was thinking of money as a "time device", buying one's future happiness... it has led us ashtray.

[Horn]

The modern day interpretation, :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2r1KaB15ck

[singular_me]

Horn, this vid cannot be taken too seriously... LOL

I wouldnt recommend epicurism nor hedonism as way of life as it is a philosophy made for/by a minority. Most people are jealous/possessive, lets not forget that.

I read a book a while back saying that one has to approach a relationship as 2 friends, to get to know about each other's needs/expectations. That it takes at least 6 months to go through this step which many people avoid because the heat of the passion is too exciting.

I have met a few who claimed to be hedonists but havent met a couple yet that lasted more than 2 or 3 year. Eventually they all became jaded and wanted a steady partner. LOL.

Emotionally wise, I lean toward stoicism, I think.

[Horn]

Emotionally wise, I lean toward stoicism, I think.

I'm diggin the Epicureans, as they are more or less in my view an "anti-hedonistic" pill.

Fear has alot to do with many peoples decisions, while that fact should be considered deeply (if not overcome completely) instead of placated.

I think the meaning of "the soul" in ancient Greece was more along the lines of the ego, or and if not, it is my flavor of Epicureanism.

[singular_me]

I'm diggin the Epicureans, as they are more or less in my view an "anti-hedonistic" pill.

I dont know what you mean by anti-hedonistic pill exactly (please see question below)... but it my view epicurism/hedonism no longer are goals to achieve... it just depends on what a soul needs to experience and if it finds the appropriate partner...


Fear has alot to do with many peoples decisions, while that fact should be considered deeply (if not overcome completely) instead of placated.

sorry for lacking imagination perhaps but the other day, I was scanning through another book describing the perfect candidate capable to transcend his instincts/fears... among many other things, it is someone who has conquered the "love of pleasures" to discover the "pleasures of love", says it all in my view.


I think the meaning of "the soul" in ancient Greece was more along the lines of the ego, or and if not, it is my flavor of Epicureanism.
care to elaborate a bit here ??? :)

[Horn]

Do not spoil what you have by desiring what you have not;

remember that what you now have was once among the things you only hoped for.

Stoics and Epicurists are equals in anti-hedonism imo.

Epicurus (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/epicurus133089.html)
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/epicurus.html#gMoAiLWBFPcIdeCW.99


(http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/epicurus.html#gMoAiLWBFPcIdeCW.99)

[Horn]

care to elaborate a bit here ??? :)

Simply replace his death of the soul quote, with death of the ego.

As far as his "atoms being part of the soul's equation"... those do not exactly exist yet in the periodic table....

Also they were Greek... :)

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irornIAQzQY

[Horn]

This one is even funnier. lol


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWHZuHIu3rc&feature=related

[singular_me]

Hey Horn, I have to say that I havent spent much time comparing philosophies about this matter as "balanced enlightenment" is my top priority LOL . I thought epircurism and hedonism had a lot in common. my mistake.

I felt like the guy in your epicurianism/hedonism/stoicism video was speaking to fast and was trying to ridicule the subject. Will have to listen to it again when I get a chance.

this quote is excellent!!!
If God listened to the prayers of men, all men would quickly have perished: for they are forever praying for evil against one another. Epicurus


Epicurus
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/epicurus.html#uoBgIaTzWvJ0U2FE.99




Stoics and Epicurists are equals in anti-hedonism imo.

Epicurus (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/e/epicurus133089.html)
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/epicurus.html#gMoAiLWBFPcIdeCW.99


(http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/e/epicurus.html#gMoAiLWBFPcIdeCW.99)

[singular_me]

Simply replace his death of the soul quote, with death of the ego.

As far as his "atoms being part of the soul's equation"... those do not exactly exist yet in the periodic table....

Also they were Greek... :)

I for one think that we all are here/alive to experience ego-less love. I am not going to abandon the boat this time. Very tempting sometimes but I really cannot afford another future life going through this AGAIN. LOL

[singular_me]

This one is even funnier. lol


the 2 first sentences in that vid are dead on! The sooner people say "we arent going to take this shit anymore", the better.

The three of knowledge symbolizes free will... one takes responsibility for having chosen to bite into the apple.

unless in case of a natural disaster, all the evil in the world is caused by ignorance, remaining spiritually flexible is key... let alone trying to interpret religious allegories, scholars still fight about them. The blame game will save no one. Those who think Judgement Day will play out in there favor have no clue of what they wish for, really.

[singular_me]

Pleasure is indeed the highest good for humans, but the fullest possible appreciation of pleasure creates a need for the prudent management of the flow of pleasures over time and for a mental grasp of the art of living. In short, our best hope for happiness is for reason and pleasure to work together.

Horn, I think "reason" always takes over and reorganize the next move... whatever we do. Sustaining the same pleasure seeking over and over will desensitize one, partially or completely. IMHO. Not to mention that not all desires need to be fulfilled to provoke a realization, either good or bad. In my early 30s, I struggled a little bit with "Kant's Critique of Pure Reason" (after a break-up with a lover into Plato. LOL) until I ran into "Ayn Rand's Virtue of Selfishness".

However your starting post makes me want to read the ancient greek philosophers again... after all, nothing really new has been invented since then, philosophically speaking. Back to the basics. :)

here is a good link, I think... (will have to read it again when I have more time)


Stoicism and Epicureanism, struggled to find coherent positions on each of these three forms of human relationships, to draw clean lines around what is worth pursuing and what is not, what is acceptable and what is not; ultimately, both schools generally agree that those relationships based on natural feelings are healthy and should be fostered, and those which degenerate into reasonless passion or emotional dependency should be avoided.

The Epicureans divided all desires along two axial lines: some are natural, others unnatural; the fulfillment of some is necessary, of others unnecessary. This creates four distinct categories of desires: the natural and necessary desires, which we should satisfy; the unnatural and necessary desires, which by definition do not exist, since only what is natural is truly necessary; the unnatural and unnecessary desires, which we should avoid; and the natural and unnecessary desires, which we should satisfy warily, carefully ensuring that we do not confuse them with the necessary desires, and thus allow them to disrupt our autarkeia, or inner self-sufficiency.

http://www.themontrealreview.com/2009/The-Stoics-and-the-Epicureans-on-Friendship-Sex-and-Love.php

[Horn]

Is a broad brush to paint with, pleasure & or pain.

A lifetime of reason could be applied to both.

One could say self analytical/mental exorcise in & of itself would be enough to fill one. Or to keep the soul "limpio".

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCBfWeJkrs8

[Horn]

Epicureanism after Epicurus The influence of Epicurus on Western thought

Misrepresentation and religious hostility have pushed Epicureanism, unfairly, to the gloomy outer reaches of Western thought. Epicureanism has nonetheless influenced rational and progressive thought, particularly the humanists and enlightenment thinkers, and in the 20th Century it has influenced Ayn Rand and the Positivists. Epicureanism is neither irrelevant nor dead. It deserves a better hearing.

Although two millenia have passed since the emergence of Christianity, the prejudice against Epicureanism survives, a tribute to the effectiveness of Roman Catholic criticism over the ages. The early Catholics branded Epicureanism "self-indulgent hedonism and godlessness", calling the Epicurean Garden "a den of iniquity" and Epicurus himself a "pig" (Augustine) and an advocate of "depravity and gluttony" (a phrase used by Jerome, Theophilus, Clement of Alexandria, as well as Augustine). On the other hand the supporters of Epicurus praised his morals, his belief in the gods, and his near-asceticism and moderation; they thought of him as a "Christian before Christ", a saviour who spoke the truth.

Epicureanism stands for moderation, enjoyment of life, tranquillity, friendship and lack of fear. Many still dismiss Epicureanism as "egoistic hedonism", although the writer of the Epicurus entry in Encyclopedia Britannica, for instance, states that "Epicureanism finds the purest joys of life in the unique richness of human encounters". Howard Jones says in his book, The Epicurean Tradition
The Epicurean message...spoke of a world which was not managed by an unseen power, of a life in which a man's actions were free from divine scrutiny, a life in which, within the bounds of society, a man might shape events according to his own will, securing himself against discomfort, acknowledging his natural instincts, relieved from the nagging fear of an unknown beyond the grave by the certainty of death as a final end."

This paper seeks to trace the influence of Epicurus through the ages. It has been assembled from a score of informational and (mostly American) academic sources -- many on the Web. (See Sources below. Of particular interest and help have been The Epicurean Tradition, by Howard Jones, and Epicurus: His Continuing Influence and Contemporary Relevance, by Dane R. Gordon and David B. Suits). This piece is written by a layman for the layman, for the better understanding of the public. It is not designed for the philosophy professor or student....

http://www.hanrott.com/epicureanism/epicureanhistory.php

[singular_me]

actually Horn, I read the article in your OP yesterday, about time I know, and it really reconciled me with Epicurus. I have held for many years preconceived ideas, but indeed, those who think they can lead a life of pleasure while ignoring the rules that it may entail are setting themselves up for a delusion.

I basically agree that Love too often leads to emotional slavery. Giving is an art but many are more afraid of receiving. Giving only works when one doesnt expect anything in return but in the long run we all are more or less expecting "something"in return. Epicurus is right when saying that friendship/love/sexuality cannot depend on materialistic concerns if we want them to be long lasting.

Stoics are a little bit too harsh on sexuality but they have a point.

we live in a system where sex is very overrated and this is the main cause of addiction, people idealize it too much so their quest ends up overwhelming them and leave frustrations in their wake - or turn out being completely harmful. I know it for a fact because it did happened to me... :(

thanks for the vid, am at library and downloading it right now

[Horn]

we live in a system where sex is very overrated and this is the main cause of addiction, people idealize it too much so their quest ends up overwhelming them and leave frustrations in their wake - or turn out being completely harmful. I know it for a fact because it did happened to me... :(

thanks for the vid, am at library and downloading it right now

Sex is essential, quality sex.

But yes when pressed into the "gourmet" realms by either party, ends up in frustrating painful mess. Most of my thought encircles around how a comfortable/satisfying connection is made.

Some things you cannot just pin down, friendship, love, they're just there, or they aren't.

One thing I do know is that patience is a virtue in these areas.

[singular_me]

if you say "quality" its confusing IMHO... sex is good as long as it doesnt lead to any trade of any kind... even kids are made selfishly, sad but so. How many parents have children so they can project their (failed) ambitions into them.

[Horn]

if you say "quality" its confusing IMHO... sex is good as long as it doesnt lead to any trade of any kind... even kids are made selfishly, sad but so. How many parents have children so they can project their (failed) ambition in them.

Quality as in non-self sacrificing, as Epicurus said self-sacrificing is opposite of essential necessity, or quality as beneficial to ones self - mutual. Of course there are also those supposed versions of self that we spoke about before, ie: ego vs. true self.

I dunno about the baby thing, seems like I woke up one day and there were babies there, don't ask me how that happened. Maybe sub-consciously? Maybe women have a better perspective on that than me, as they seem driven towards it physically.

Men ain't gonna say making babies is painful... :)

[singular_me]

agree... what often ruins a couple is that expectations grow along with time and then eventually the trade breaks down... Prostitution might even be healthier than staying with a partner for the sake of security. At least in the first case, intentions are crystal clear. How many couples are stuck in this situation? Seems to me that Epicurus was kinda buddhist oriented at his time. I listened to half of the audio-class and the teacher says that friendship is the highest value worth to experience. I couldnt agree more. Too often lovers are blinded by sexual desire. Lust goes always bust. Excesses are also a big warning as their aftermaths is always painful.

from my perspective, too many kids are brought up into this world with the pressure to address their parents expectations. I did that very mistake, something I have repeated from my own parents.


Quality as in non-self sacrificing, as Epicurus said self-sacrificing is opposite of essential necessity, or quality as beneficial to ones self - mutual. Of course there are also those supposed versions of self that we spoke about before, ie: ego vs. true self.

I dunno about the baby thing, seems like I woke up one day and there were babies there, don't ask me how that happened. Maybe sub-consciously? Maybe women have a better perspective on that than me, as they seem driven towards it physically.

Men ain't gonna say making babies is painful... :)

[Horn]

agree... what often ruins a couple is that expectations grow along with time and then eventually the trade breaks down...

You could say an Epicurean philosophy would view this "greater sense of oneness" achieved thru intimacy & love much the same way it does God.

Its the individual's expectations that try to pray upon it, when it really wants nothing at all to do with the individual in that regard.

Deep stuff, maybe too deep. :)

So deep that it hurts?

[singular_me]

achieved thru intimacy & love much the same way it does God.

Right. A book I read a while back said something like this: the paramount of pleasure during intercourse could be compared to the power released at the moment of Creation (well, on a lower scale) and thus that the orgasmic state is a way to approach God's Mind (ok, meditation too), and that almost everything in society prevents us discovering this

so there you have it, its mainly why all societies/organized religions wage a war on sexuality OR encourage the complete opposite. Either way, it creates people with deep emotional imbalances.

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAqXUxeCl00