Debt ... The first 5,000 Years

[palani]

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2012/08/13/david_graeber_-_debt__the_first_5_000_years.pdf

From what I have read so far seems to be a rational analysis of what debt actually is.

[Katmandu]

Near the end of the document the author makes these comments:

"It seems to me that we are long overdue for some kind of Biblical-style Jubilee: one that would affect both international debt and consumer debt. ...........

......The governing class of the United States seems to have taken a remarkably similar approach:.....never allowing anyone to question the sacred principle that we must all pay our debts...........

.....Nothing would be more important than to wipe the slate clean for everyone, mark a break with our accustomed morality, and start again."




I am one that believes in the truth and logic of Biblical-style Jubilee. However, being the imitators and counterfeiters that the ruling elite are, you have to wonder if they are driving the world to such an unimaginable level of debt, such that they can then enact a "fake" jubilee.

That is, where they offer to relieve anyone's debts who is willing to accept whatever token is required to enter into the full onslaught of the NWO (whether that token be a global ID card, or chip, or "mark"). The process might be more subtle and more drawn out than this, but you get the idea.

Those that don't accept must retain their debts and debt bondage and associated complications of not being able to do business in the NWO; those that do accept have their debts "forgiven", but are then enslaved to a whole new level.

Those that have no debt would of course be the best off in such a situation, especially if they have a self-sufficient lifestyle.

[Twisted Titan]

taggggg

[Twisted Titan]

Nee erit ulla pecunia debita, debitum est unum sunt.



Debt never has nor ever will be about money,debt is about one thing :CONTROL.

[JDRock]

Nee erit ulla pecunia debita, debitum est unum sunt.



Debt never has nor ever will be about money,debt is about one thing :CONTROL."
" for the borrower is SERVANT to the lender" proverbs.

[Uncle Salty]

This is what the book ends with:



At this point, however, the principle has been exposed as a flagrant
lie. As it turns out, we don't "all" have to pay our debts. Only some of
us do. Nothing would be more important than to wipe the slate clean for
everyone, mark a break with our accustomed morality, and start again.
What is a debt, anyway ? A debt is just the perversion of a promise.
It is a promise corrupted by both math and violence. If freedom (real
freedom) is the ability to make friends, then it is also, necessarily, the
ability to make real promises. What sorts of promises might genuinely
free men and women make to one another ? At this point we can't even
say. It's more a question of how we can get to a place that will allow
us to find out. And the first step in that journey, in turn, is to accept
that in the largest scheme of things, just as no one has the right to tell
us our true value, no one has the right to tell us what we truly owe.

It is an interesting read, but his conclusion is just a bunch of kumbaya bullshit. So, after a debt jubilee, when everyone has been relieved of their onerous debt, what the fuck then?

He does not attempt to identify a money system that is honest and doesn't repeat the mistakes of the past. So, while interesting to read his history of what money/debt is/were, without some kind of solution, the book is nothing more than a somewhat interesting read with a disappointing ending.

The book basically says we need to cut out the cancer (debt), but then offers no solution to preventing the cancer from reappearing and killing us. The book is just identifying a problem but offering no real solution.

[palani]

after a debt jubilee, when everyone has been relieved of their onerous debt, what the fuck then?
Perhaps the solution is an individual one?


As a being of Power, Intelligence, and Love, and the lord of his own
thoughts, man holds the key to every situation, and contains within
himself that transforming and regenerative agency by which he may
make himself what he wills.

Knowing this I don't believe I would be searching for a solution that involves nations and states. You can not take away freedom of choice from anyone even if you know the choice being offered is not the proper choice or a choice that you have considered and rejected. The U.S. as the worlds preeminent debtor nation cannot advise 3rd world countries how to avoid this situation themselves because it desires their commerce and their company.

[Libertarian_Guard]

http://i50.tinypic.com/ezgap2.png

[palani]

More James Allen:

It has been usual for men to think and to say, "Many men are slaves
because one is an oppressor; let us hate the oppressor." Now,
however, there is amongst an increasing few a tendency to reverse
this judgment, and to say, "One man is an oppressor because many are
slaves; let us despise the slaves."

The truth is that oppressor and slave are co-operators in ignorance,
and, while seeming to afflict each other, are in reality afflicting
themselves. A perfect Knowledge perceives the action of law in the
weakness of the oppressed and the misapplied power of the oppressor;
a perfect Love, seeing the suffering, which both states entail,
condemns neither; a perfect Compassion embraces both oppressor and
oppressed.

[Uncle Salty]

Perhaps the solution is an individual one?


Really Palani?

I was referring to creating a monetary system that doesn't repeat the mistakes of past ones. What, everyone creates their own money and own challenge coins to buy goods and services. What is the point of a debt jubilee if we just start over doing the same thing again?

[palani]

I was referring to creating a monetary system that doesn't repeat the mistakes of past ones.
That would seem to be one based upon gold or silver or some other substance wouldn't it? Didn't that exist for upwards of 70 years in the early days of the U.S. Why do you see the need to re-invent something that already existed and worked well for so many years?

At the time the U.S. introduced fiat they had the experience of the French following their revolution to draw intelligence from. Despite this solid example of a fiat system failure they opted to introduce fiat. Just because fiat was "re-invented" does not force anyone to make use of it. You volunteer for that. Your choice.

Whatever currency system that gets invented or re-invented ... it is always going to be your choice whether you make use of it or not.


What is the point of a debt jubilee if we just start over doing the same thing again? Debt works for some people. Having survived the farm crisis of '82 with no debt I can tell you that the ones who had sufficient debt had much of it written off. About 10 years later attending a farm auction an acquaintance who worked for the farm oversite agency was complaining to me that the same farmers who had gotten their debt written off were back doing the same thing that got them in trouble during the farm crisis. My observation ... "If it worked out well for them one time why wouldn't they be in doing it again?"

[Uncle Salty]

That would seem to be one based upon gold or silver or some other substance wouldn't it? Didn't that exist for upwards of 70 years in the early days of the U.S. Why do you see the need to re-invent something that already existed and worked well for so many years?

At the time the U.S. introduced fiat they had the experience of the French following their revolution to draw intelligence from. Despite this solid example of a fiat system failure they opted to introduce fiat. Just because fiat was "re-invented" does not force anyone to make use of it. You volunteer for that. Your choice.

Whatever currency system that gets invented or re-invented ... it is always going to be your choice whether you make use of it or not.


Hard money is never going to work again, and it never really did. There is not enough gold and silver to be the medium of exchange and you can't put the digital money genie back in the bottle. But at least you proposed a system, unlike the book.

I want Freegold!

[Uncle Salty]

That would seem to be one based upon gold or silver or some other substance wouldn't it? Didn't that exist for upwards of 70 years in the early days of the U.S. Why do you see the need to re-invent something that already existed and worked well for so many years?


Our bi-metal system was flawed in that it had a fixed, or artificial, exchange rate between the two. What needs to happen is to separate the functions of transactional money and saving money. That way, you can eliminate the conflict between savers and debtors. Debtors can debt and savers can save without one getting an advantage in the market through artificial pricing of money that tries to serve two masters.

[palani]

Hard money is never going to work again, and it never really did.

Beg to differ. Substance is one element of a common law contract. Substance doesn't mean the entire amount must be paid in specie. It means that a token or symbolic amount of $1 or 1 pound sterling represents the substance. The remainder of the exchange might take place in chicken manure or brass farthings. This remainder is called "other valuable considerations". An autograph (being private property) might be considered to be satisfactory to fulfill this remainder. If dealing with family members (or pedophiles for that matter) the "other valuable consideration" might be termed "love and affection".

Clueless is how I would classify those who would insist upon an entire transaction being performed in specie. First, it ain't going to happen. Second, if it did happen, you would likely hoard it and insist that you were as poor as the other 99.9% of the population that holds money as the master of their soul.

[Uncle Salty]

Beg to differ. Substance is one element of a common law contract. Substance doesn't mean the entire amount must be paid in specie. It means that a token or symbolic amount of $1 or 1 pound sterling represents the substance. The remainder of the exchange might take place in chicken manure or brass farthings. This remainder is called "other valuable considerations". An autograph (being private property) might be considered to be satisfactory to fulfill this remainder. If dealing with family members (or pedophiles for that matter) the "other valuable consideration" might be termed "love and affection".

Clueless is how I would classify those who would insist upon an entire transaction being performed in specie. First, it ain't going to happen. Second, if it did happen, you would likely hoard it and insist that you were as poor as the other 99.9% of the population that holds money as the master of their soul.

I appreciate where you are coming from, but you macro fantasy world is not reality with 6 billion people and digital money. And regardless of what you think might work, we are headed to a new world monetary order that will not include your autographs or love and affection.

[palani]

I appreciate where you are coming from, but you macro fantasy world is not reality with 6 billion people and digital money. And regardless of what you think might work, we are headed to a new world monetary order that will not include your autographs or love and affection.

Your choice but in the land of the blind a one eyed man might be king. Be prepared to share the shortages rather than reap the surpluses.

[Uncle Salty]

Your choice but in the land of the blind a one eyed man might be king. Be prepared to share the shortages rather than reap the surpluses.

Again, I am not talking about a macro transaction, I am talking about a global monetary system. But you like to play your silly obscure word games, so more power to you and your pursuit of self entertainment and satisfaction.

[palani]

I am talking about a global monetary system I get it. You are a NWO puke. Good luck with that.