Bitcoin: Or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Cryptocurrency

[sirgonzo420]

I posted the following post in another thread, but figured that I should start a generic Bitcoin thread, for discussion, questions, comments, criticisms, fun, entertainment, ballyhoo, tomfoolery, and general what-have-you.


I have been a little loathe to seriously bring up bitcoin here, because it is still experimental, and it's easy to dismiss as "non-existent" compared to the tangibility of our beloved metals.

But in a nutshell... it is internet gold, (not like e-gold though) that you hold yourself with no fees and no middleman and no one can stop your transactions or freeze your accounts. You can even create a deterministic wallet that is based on a passphrase (or pass-sentence... hopefully with high entropy to cryptographically protect the keys).

Here's a thought... I could convert goods/metal/FRNs to bitcoins, then send the bitcoins to a certain address that corresponds with a private key that is created from a passphrase that exists only in my head. I can travel the world with millions "in my head", then, in a destination country, run a bitcoin client, and recover the private key from my passphrase when I want to spend the coins.

"I got my mind on my money and my money on my mind" as the old negro spiritual goes.

Bitcoins can be converted directly into gold and silver and vice verse, no FRN middleman.
People WANT bitcoin. They will steal and scam and extort to get them. You don't hear about many thefts of things that aren't valuable or aren't capable of transferring value.

I love gold and silver, but I can't transport them across the planet without taking them myself or trusting someone, and it certainly would not be within an hour... but bitcoin is different... I can send it virtually instantly anywhere in the world... there are services now that allow you to send them to cell phones and email addresses, although those systems rely on third-parties, and thus, trust.

You can't send value in the form of gold across the world without trust and you can't do it instantly, and of course, it could be seized.

You can't send value in the form of USD/FRN across the world without the same problems as with gold or without using the banking cartel as a middleman, who then decides when and if to process your transactions, and who can freeze funds and charge-back transactions on a whim.

Bitcoin puts you in the driver's seat in regards to transferring value instantly over the internet, without counterparty risk in the form of middlemen.

Bitcoins have risen from $0.001 to $30, to $10 currently, and the supply is mathematically limited to 21 million bitcoins total (they are currently divisible by 8 decimal places, which allows for a great deal of "units").

A couple years ago someone bought two pizzas for 10,000 BTC (which was a fair price at the time based on exchange value). As of RIGHT NOW, valued in USD at today's BTC exchange rate, that guy paid $107,500.00 for two pizzas.

[Skirnir_]

I would dispute whether there are counter-parties to bitcoin. If I recall, a bitcoin is said to be in one's possession only because other users recognise it as so. What has occurred is therefore a distribution of counter-party risk and the added element of algorithm risk.

[sirgonzo420]

I would dispute whether there are counter-parties to bitcoin. If I recall, a bitcoin is said to be in one's possession only because other users recognise it as so. What has occurred is therefore a distribution of counter-party risk and the added element of algorithm risk.

This is why the distribution of network nodes is important. If a single (or colluding) entity(s) were to obtain over half of the hashrate of the entire network, then they could refuse to process certain transactions, which would obviously not be very good, but they could not steal the coins held by others because they would still lack the private keys.
To help put it in perspective, even if one had control of the hashing power of the entire bitcoin network, which, to my knowledge, is by far the greatest known network of such a hashrate, then it would take about 10 billion years to crack one single bitcoin address/private key.

The other users recognize it as so because only the holder of a private cryptographic key can use that key to sign a message which demonstrates control over said key and the value associated with it, determined by the chain of transactions known as the blockchain. It is viewable here: blockchain.info

As far as algorithm risk, if the cryptography that holds bitcoin together is "cracked", then so is the cryptography of the global banking system.

[sirgonzo420]

A little update:


I have been a little loathe to seriously bring up bitcoin here, because it is still experimental, and it's easy to dismiss as "non-existent" compared to the tangibility of our beloved metals.

But in a nutshell... it is internet gold, (not like e-gold though) that you hold yourself with no fees and no middleman and no one can stop your transactions or freeze your accounts. You can even create a deterministic wallet that is based on a passphrase (or pass-sentence... hopefully with high entropy to cryptographically protect the keys).

Here's a thought... I could convert goods/metal/FRNs to bitcoins, then send the bitcoins to a certain address that corresponds with a private key that is created from a passphrase that exists only in my head. I can travel the world with millions "in my head", then, in a destination country, run a bitcoin client, and recover the private key from my passphrase when I want to spend the coins.

"I got my mind on my money and my money on my mind" as the old negro spiritual goes.

Bitcoins can be converted directly into gold and silver and vice verse, no FRN middleman.
People WANT bitcoin. They will steal and scam and extort to get them. You don't hear about many thefts of things that aren't valuable or aren't capable of transferring value.

I love gold and silver, but I can't transport them across the planet without taking them myself or trusting someone, and it certainly would not be within an hour... but bitcoin is different... I can send it virtually instantly anywhere in the world... there are services now that allow you to send them to cell phones and email addresses, although those systems rely on third-parties, and thus, trust.

You can't send value in the form of gold across the world without trust and you can't do it instantly, and of course, it could be seized.

You can't send value in the form of USD/FRN across the world without the same problems as with gold or without using the banking cartel as a middleman, who then decides when and if to process your transactions, and who can freeze funds and charge-back transactions on a whim.

Bitcoin puts you in the driver's seat in regards to transferring value instantly over the internet, without counterparty risk in the form of middlemen.

Bitcoins have risen from $0.001 to $30, to $10 (make that $290) currently, and the supply is mathematically limited to 21 million bitcoins total (they are currently divisible by 8 decimal places, which allows for a great deal of "units").

A couple years ago someone bought two pizzas for 10,000 BTC (which was a fair price at the time based on exchange value). As of RIGHT NOW, valued in USD at today's BTC exchange rate, that guy paid $107,500.00 (make that $2.9 million) for two pizzas.

[madfranks]

I regret that I missed this thread last year when you posted it. However, I bought in at $40, so I'm happy, although I only bought 10 at that price. Hindsight being 20/20, bitcoin was without a doubt the best investment any one of us could have made in the last few years.

[sirgonzo420]

I regret that I missed this thread last year when you posted it. However, I bought in at $40, so I'm happy, although I only bought 10 at that price. Hindsight being 20/20, bitcoin was without a doubt the best investment any one of us could have made in the last few years.


I just bumped another thread that I started back in 2011, which may have been the first mention of bitcoin on this forum.


Bitcoin was brought up (in the financial section, if I recall correctly) on the original GIM forum before it went down.

I can still remember my first impressions, which are being echoed somewhat by members here.


It is worthwhile to own one full bitcoin. There will only ever be 21 million of them, so having 1/21,000,000th of an entire currency wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. If you owned 1/21,000,000th of the world's silver or gold (or hell, anything), you would be holding onto some value.

Right now, one bitcoin is affordable.... if Bitcoin "takes off", it may be unheard of for one person to hold a whole bitcoin.


So, members here should not feel as if they missed the boat. In 5 or 10 years, $300 per bitcoin may be only a negligible difference from $3 or $0.03 bitcoins.

[madfranks]

Right now, one bitcoin is affordable.... if Bitcoin "takes off", it may be unheard of for one person to hold a whole bitcoin.


What will likely happen is the default "bit unit" will be the mBTC, which is 0.001 BTC, or the uBTC, which is 0.000001 BTC. If BTC become exceedingly valuable, people will trade in these smaller units, say 20 uBTC instead of 0.00002 BTC. It's a naturally deflationary currency, which benefits savers.

[Horn]

And as the 12 of us walked behind him from Cyprus to Rome,

5624

we found in one trading day we lost more than 60% of our worth along the Odyssey.

When we finally did arrive in Rome, some black folks shipwrecked from Tripoli were waiting in the line in front of us
to have their turn on the floor of the Colosseum.

[EE_]

What will likely happen is the default "bit unit" will be the mBTC, which is 0.001 BTC, or the uBTC, which is 0.000001 BTC. If BTC become exceedingly valuable, people will trade in these smaller units, say 20 uBTC instead of 0.00002 BTC. It's a naturally deflationary currency, which benefits savers.

That's what I keep thinking about.

People keep saying bitcoin is a finite supply, but when all bitcoins are done being mined there will be 2.1 quadrillion fractional bitcoins that can be traded. These units could be called fractional bitcoins, or frac-bits, or f-bits.

So in a sense bitcoin is a self inflating currency, As price rises the next smallest frac unit will become usable.
Right now 1 bitcoin at $300 - a 1/10,000 fracbit is valued at $.03
When 1 bit is $3000 - a 1/100,000 will be $.03...and so on

In my mind there will be 2.1 quadrillion f-bitcoins in existance...hardly finite. That's enough fbits to supply the entire population of the planet with a large number of fbits.

The Federal Reserve ain't shit in dollar terms!

[sirgonzo420]

That's what I keep thinking about.

People keep saying bitcoin is a finite supply, but when all bitcoins are done being mined there will be 2.1 quadrillion fractional bitcoins that can be traded. These units could be called fractional bitcoins, or frac-bits, or f-bits.

So in a sense bitcoin is a self inflating currency, As price rises the next smallest frac unit will become usable.
Right now 1 bitcoin at $300 - a 1/10,000 fracbit is valued at $.03
When 1 bit is $3000 - a 1/100,000 will be $.03...and so on

In my mind there will be 2.1 quadrillion f-bitcoins in existance...hardly finite. That's enough fbits to supply the entire population of the planet with a large number of fbits.

The Federal Reserve ain't shit in dollar terms!


I don't think you've really wrapped your head around this idea.

Have you read the Bitcoin whitepaper? It is only about 8 pages or so, if I recall correctly.

Just because one can divide gold into smaller smaller fractions does not make the gold worth less.... in fact, its divisibility is seen to be an valued and necessary quality of gold.

Today, one penny won't buy you shit, so one mil really won't buy anything... but if you could pay for something with 1/10th of a cent, would that make your full, 100-cent dollar worth less? No, of course not.

[EE_]

I don't think you've really wrapped your head around this idea.

Have you read the Bitcoin whitepaper? It is only about 8 pages or so, if I recall correctly.

Just because one can divide gold into smaller smaller fractions does not make the gold worth less.... in fact, its divisibility is seen to be an valued and necessary quality of gold.

Today, one penny won't buy you shit, so one mil really won't buy anything... but if you could pay for something with 1/10th of a cent, would that make your full, 100-cent dollar worth less? No, of course not.

I don't think gold can be used for a comparison, since gold is something tangible...something you see and touch.

You can only break down gold so small until you can't see it with the naked eye.

A better comparison would be to use fiat currency like Zimbabwe dollars, or Federal Reserve notes.

Bitcoin is going up in price because it's finding it's value against the dollar, at some point it should be fully valued. Then what?

Please proceed professor...

[sirgonzo420]

I don't think gold can be used for a comparison, since gold is something tangible...something you see and touch.
You can only break down gold so small until you can't see it with the naked eye.

A better comparison would be to use fiat currency like Zimbabwe dollars, or Federal Reserve notes.


No. Zimbabwe notes were printed ad infinitum. They are used as wallpaper in some places. Pretty much the same case with FRNs.

There will only ever be 21,000,000 bitcoins. That's it. It's intangible, but that can actually be a good thing. Tangible things can be physically stolen. Intangible things are harder to steal.

The fact that one can divide something into smaller pieces does not make the whole less. I'm really not sure how one could conclude otherwise.

[EE_]

No. Zimbabwe notes were printed ad infinitum. They are used as wallpaper in some places. Pretty much the same case with FRNs.

There will only ever be 21,000,000 bitcoins. That's it. It's intangible, but that can actually be a good thing. Tangible things can be physically stolen. Intangible things are harder to steal.

The fact that one can divide something into smaller pieces does not make the whole less. I'm really not sure how one could conclude otherwise.

The Zimbabwe dollars were gradually added until they spun out of control. It was a process of breaking the currency down into smaller pieces.

Bitcoin is already in small pieces, 2.1 quadrillion pieces...and that's not to say more pieces can't be had by adding zeros.

As I said, bitcoin is finding it's value against fiat currency and eventually it will be fully valued.
Then what?

Right now if you are holding 1 bitcoin, you are holding 100,000,000 pieces that can be traded.
Similarly, if you are holding a US hundred dollar bill, you are holding 10,000 pieces that can be traded.

Understand, my questions are not to bash bitcoin, but to explore what is happening and where it is going.

[Horn]

It will never make it passed the starting gate to actually being used for purchasing items due to the deflating supply of them.

Its worse than Gold at this point for that reason.

The only practical use will be as stated, a dollar exchange and velocity generator. Bernanke & co. love them because they can also be seized away with e-theft.

Its like cocaine or heroin for the CIA. making dough off of it 3 times over.

The market for them most likely came under control during the last huge dip.

[EE_]

The Winklevoss (Jew) Twins think bitcoin will be fully valued at $10,000 US dollars.
Of course everyone is bullish when their net worth is rising...it's human nature.

So once bitcoin is fully valued, it will be a fully valued competing currency as long as dollars exist.
From there, I guess it only gets debased as dollars get debased?

[Horn]

The Winklevoss (Jew) Twins think bitcoin will be fully valued at $10,000 US dollars.
Of course everyone is bullish when their net worth is rising...it's human nature.

So once bitcoin is fully valued, it will be a fully valued competing currency as long as dollars exist.
From there, I guess it only gets debased as dollars get debased?

Question I have, is if you receive a piece of a Bitcoin (or eightball raw e-gold cocaine)

can you reforge it along with another piece into a new full Bitcoin Oz.

Or do you just endup with a bag of rehashed aftermarket Bitcoin roach pieces?

Hey do you wanna buy my bag of roaches, I don't niggerlip too much!

[sirgonzo420]

Question I have, is if you receive a piece of a Bitcoin (or eightball raw gold cocaine)

can you reforge it along with another piece into a new full Bitcoin Oz.

Or do you just endup with a bunch of rehashed aftermarket Bitcoin roach pieces?

Hey do you wanna buy my bag of roaches, I don't niggerlip too much!

That's one of the great differences between bitcoins and roaches.

If you roll a joint with roaches, it won't be the same as a fresh joint.

With bitcoin, "roaches" combine back together just fine.

[EE_]

Question I have, is if you receive a piece of a Bitcoin (or eightball raw e-gold cocaine)

can you reforge it along with another piece into a new full Bitcoin Oz.

Or do you just endup with a bag of rehashed aftermarket Bitcoin roach pieces?

Hey do you wanna buy my bag of roaches, I don't niggerlip too much!

yeah sure

http://profile.ak.fbcdn.net/hprofile-ak-prn1/41577_115912781762952_2114862_n.jpg

[sirgonzo420]

The Winklevoss (Jew) Twins think bitcoin will be fully valued at $10,000 US dollars.
Of course everyone is bullish when their net worth is rising...it's human nature.

So once bitcoin is fully valued, it will be a fully valued competing currency as long as dollars exist.
From there, I guess it only gets debased as dollars get debased?

What do you mean?

If you are using the word "debased" in reference to the Bitcoin protocol, I'm not sure why, as it doesn't really apply.

Bitcoin is a mathematically-secured protocol. Math governs it.

Here is a spiffy little infographic:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/img/06Bitcoin-1338412974774.jpg

[Hitch]

I think bitcoin might be a bubble currently and I'll explain my thoughts. While comparing bitcoin to gold or other finite resources, it's not finite, marketwise, that is.

I'm comparing it with regards to the past housing bubble that came crashing down in 07/08. Back in 1997 I was living in CA at the time, a friend bought a house for around $160,000. I moved to Colorado shortly after and bought a house there in 2000, for $148,000. I sold in 2005, for $185,000, and moved back to CA. My buddy then sold his house for $600,000. So why during the whole bubble my house only went up $37,000, and his went up $440,000? Location. Two reasons, everyone was moving to CA and wanted to buy, plus, there were limited areas to build new homes. In CO, there was plenty of new homes being built to meet demand, and the prices went up at a healthy normally slow, market-wise, level.

Much like bitcoin. Bitcoin is CA houses, everyone wants it now. But all it takes is different locations, or other options, to make it come crashing down. Other cryptocurrencies, such as litecoins. People will see why buy 1 bitcoin, when I can buy 100 of another coin.

Thoughts? This is why I see it as a bubble. There's always a bubble when too many people chase a limited quantity of resources. There are other options to bitcoins, and those will seem very attractive going forward.

[EE_]

What do you mean?

If you are using the word "debased" in reference to the Bitcoin protocol, I'm not sure why, as it doesn't really apply.

Bitcoin is a mathematically-secured protocol. Math governs it.



No, I meant once fully valued, it would get debased as US dollars get debased, because bitcoin is valued in dollars.
As dollars become worth less bitcoin would become worth less. That's all I'm saying here.

[sirgonzo420]

No, I meant once fully valued, it would get debased as US dollars get debased, because bitcoin is valued in dollars.
As dollars become worth less bitcoin would become worth less. That's all I'm saying here.

Nope.

Bitcoins would likely hold their value, so if dollars were debased (and they likely always will be) then the price of a bitcoin, valued in dollars will rise.

Bitcoins are not tied to the dollar. They are free-floating, varying according to the immutable laws of supply and demand.

The phrase "once fully valued", is kind of nebulous.

[Horn]

The design in that picture eeeks hold, hold, hold.

Better off with seashells.

[EE_]

I think bitcoin might be a bubble currently and I'll explain my thoughts. While comparing bitcoin to gold or other finite resources, it's not finite, marketwise, that is.

I'm comparing it with regards to the past housing bubble that came crashing down in 07/08. Back in 1997 I was living in CA at the time, a friend bought a house for around $160,000. I moved to Colorado shortly after and bought a house there in 2000, for $148,000. I sold in 2005, for $185,000, and moved back to CA. My buddy then sold his house for $600,000. So why during the whole bubble my house only went up $37,000, and his went up $440,000? Location. Two reasons, everyone was moving to CA and wanted to buy, plus, there were limited areas to build new homes. In CO, there was plenty of new homes being built to meet demand, and the prices went up at a healthy normally slow, market-wise, level.

Much like bitcoin. Bitcoin is CA houses, everyone wants it now. But all it takes is different locations, or other options, to make it come crashing down. Other cryptocurrencies, such as litecoins. People will see why buy 1 bitcoin, when I can buy 100 of another coin.

Thoughts? This is why I see it as a bubble. There's always a bubble when too many people chase a limited quantity of resources. There are other options to bitcoins, and those will seem very attractive going forward.


Two reasons, everyone was moving to CA and wanted to buy, plus, there were limited areas to build new homes.
Reason three: perhaps the biggest reason, because prices were rising and people didn't want to miss out on the bonanza.
Making money on speculation beats working to produce something, hands down!

[Hitch]

Reason three: perhaps the biggest reason, because prices were rising and people didn't want to miss out on the bonanza.
Making money on speculation beats working to produce something, hands down!

Exactly, same thing with bitcoin. When folks buy bitcoins as an investment, not as a currency, it's a bubble.

[Horn]

Exactly, same thing with bitcoin. When folks buy bitcoins as an investment, not as a currency, it's a bubble.

I have hard enough time holding bubbles in he real world, Holding E-Bubbles seems that much more fruitless.

When it drops to $45 (<----standard $ symbol) I might be in.

Someone needs to make an app. like the mountain climber on Price is Right for it firstly though.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSAeyAV85UM

[EE_]

Nope.

Bitcoins would likely hold their value, so if dollars were debased (and they likely always will be) then the price of a bitcoin, valued in dollars will rise.

Bitcoins are not tied to the dollar. They are free-floating, varying according to the immutable laws of supply and demand.

The phrase "once fully valued", is kind of nebulous.

Well, they are tied to the dollar because they are valued in dollars.
What if the dollar collapsed? Would bitcoins have to be valued in gold?

And look at gold today by the way...

$1282.80 -$25.80
http://www.tifr.us/storage/post-images/Giant-Turd.jpg

[madfranks]

It will never make it passed the starting gate to actually being used for purchasing items due to the deflating supply of them.

Its worse than Gold at this point for that reason.

The only practical use will be as stated, a dollar exchange and velocity generator. Bernanke & co. love them because they can also be seized away with e-theft.

Its like cocaine or heroin for the CIA. making dough off of it 3 times over.

The market for them most likely came under control during the last huge dip.

The "necessity" of an inflationary money is Keynesianism to the core. Gold and silver, the two strongest and longest lasting monies in the history of the world, are not inflationary currencies.

[Horn]

The "necessity" of an inflationary money is Keynesianism to the core. Gold and silver, the two strongest and longest lasting monies in the history of the world, are not inflationary currencies.

How much was mined last year?

If you can't wrap your head around necessary flation, I can no longer discuss fruitless pure e-cocaine endeavors.

We'll start the total Bitcoins in existence at 1 which is mine.

I will hold it forever.

[sirgonzo420]

Well, they are tied to the dollar because they are valued in dollars.
What if the dollar collapsed? Would bitcoins have to be valued in gold?

And look at gold today by the way...

$1282.80 -$25.80
http://www.tifr.us/storage/post-images/Giant-Turd.jpg

No, some people value bitcoins for the bitcoins, regardless of dollars, because they understand the idea of Bitcoin.

For example, 50 bitcoins is 50 bitcoins, and this is not dependent upon the value in dollars.

Bitcoin can be valued in gold/silver, or dollars, but doesn't have to be valued against anything... it is a usable unit in and of itself.

I posted a thread here not long ago when bitcoin was at par with silver.

I think yesterday or so I posted that one bitcoin would buy nearly 14 oz of silver.

Today one bitcoin can buy about 15.5 oz of silver.

You can buy a full, one oz gold Krugerrand for less than 4 bitcoins today.

[sirgonzo420]

How much was mined last year?


Currently 25 btc is mined about every 10 minutes.

Before late 2012, 50 btc was mined about every 10 minutes.

[Hitch]

I have hard enough time holding bubbles in he real world, Holding E-Bubbles seems that much more fruitless.

When it drops to $45 (<----standard $ symbol) I might be in.

This is why bitcoins are an investment, not a currency. Why would I trade one bitcoin for another person's widgets when in a year from now that bitcoin will be worth a lot more in relative value?

There is only 21,000,00 bitcoins. This is bitcoins flaw. To be a successful currency, there has to be growth to keep up with the growth in population. This is why gold has been so successful, for thousands of years, as a currency. Gold is mined out of the ground at roughly the same rate as the growth in population.

Bitcoin is not a store of value, but a speculative investment.

[EE_]

Currently 25 btc is mined about every 10 minutes.

Before late 2012, 50 btc was mined about every 10 minutes.

So more bitcoins are being mined currently then before late 2012.

Bitcoins are dollars.

[sirgonzo420]

So more bitcoins are being mined currently then before late 2012.

Bitcoins are dollars.


Nope, your math is backwards.

No wonder you don't understand bitcoin!

;D

[Horn]

Bitcoin is not a store of value, but a speculative investment.

Its more than just a speculative investment, its the drug you're looking for.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlRmTKuEAG4

[EE_]

No, some people value bitcoins for the bitcoins, regardless of dollars, because they understand the idea of Bitcoin.

For example, 50 bitcoins is 50 bitcoins, and this is not dependent upon the value in dollars.

Bitcoin can be valued in gold/silver, or dollars, but doesn't have to be valued against anything... it is a usable unit in and of itself.

I posted a thread here not long ago when bitcoin was at par with silver.

I think yesterday or so I posted that one bitcoin would buy nearly 14 oz of silver.

Today one bitcoin can buy about 15.5 oz of silver.

You can buy a full, one oz gold Krugerrand for less than 4 bitcoins today.

Okay, I see what you're saying. Bitcoin may be priced in dollars but it is valued in all goods and services.
Basically for anyone that accepts it.

A currency collapse would drive the dollar price to the moon, but it would still only buy a certain ammount of goods and services.

However, if there was a currency collapse, bitcoin would take it's place as a new global currency and bankers would have to accept it or they would cease to exist.

[Ares]

So more bitcoins are being mined currently then before late 2012.

Bitcoins are dollars.

Its payout (Block discovery reward) gets halved every 4 years. November 2012 it went from 50 BTC's every 10 minutes to 25 BTC today and for another 3 more years before it gets halved again to 12.5 BTC for block reward. The network increases in difficulty to match the amount of processing power to keep it in line with it's original goals. Definitely the frustration for miners with ASIC hardware coming on line. Your expensive ASIC miner will only be profitable for about 6 months at MOST. Prior to that GPU's were profitable for about 2 years.

When I ordered my 60Giga Hash miner back in January of this year. The network difficulty was around 3 million. As of this writing the network difficulty is at 510 million. So an astronomical increase in difficulty. The reason I explain that is to show that the network self adjust to keep the 21 million ever mined in line with it's stated goal. You can keep throwing more and more hardware at it, but the difficulty will just go up to match so that no more than 21 million coins will be mined by the year 2140 something.

[EE_]

Nope, your math is backwards.

No wonder you don't understand bitcoin!

;D

Wrongo!
I would gladly have 25 bitcoins for cracking the code at todays price, then 50 bitcoins at late 2012 prices.
I would have much more dollars!

[Ares]

However, if there was a currency collapse, bitcoin would take it's place as a new global currency and bankers would have to accept it or they would cease to exist.

Exactly!!!! A complete reversal of the paradigm we currently live.

What started Bitcoins rise from $10 to $266 earlier this year was the Cyprus event. Immediately after that happened, people started looking into alternatives and Bitcoin filled that demand so the price increased. I even read accounts of people who dumped their entire life savings into Bitcoin because they no longer trusted banks or the global fiat system in general.

You get that type of attitude on a global scale and the bankers printing money whenever they want is finished.

[sirgonzo420]

Its payout (Block discovery reward) gets halved every 4 years. November 2012 it went from 50 BTC's every 10 minutes to 25 BTC. The network increases in difficulty to match the amount of processing power to keep it in line with it's original goals. Definitely the frustration for miners with ASIC hardware coming on line. Your expensive ASIC miner will only be profitable for about 6 months at MOST. Prior to that GPU's were profitable for about 2 years.

And prior to that, regular CPU mining.... you could run the original Bitcoin client and it had a setting for "generate coins", because it was feasible for CPUs to mine them then. Now, that option is missing from the standard Bitcoin client, because it would just be a waste of electricity with a regular CPU.


When I ordered my 60Giga Hash miner back in January of this year. The network difficulty was around 3 million. As of this writing the network difficulty is at 510 million. So an astronomical increase in difficulty. The reason I explain that is to show that the network self adjust to keep the 21 million ever mined in line with it's stated goal. You can keep throwing more and more hardware at it, but the difficulty will just go up to match so that no more than 21 million coins will be mined by the year 2140 something.

One problem, is that mining is becoming increasingly centralized, which is inherent in the design, whether intended or not.

[sirgonzo420]

Wrongo!
I would gladly have 25 bitcoins for cracking the code at todays price, then 50 bitcoins at late 2012 prices.
I would have much more dollars!

Well, the value of 25 bitcoins now (valued in those damned FRNs), is higher than 50 bitcoins then.

But 50 bitcoins are worth twice what 25 bitcoins are worth, so if you mined and held, you would have a nice little stash of bitcoins.

The dollar value doesn't matter to Bitcoin purists.

[EE_]

Its payout (Block discovery reward) gets halved every 4 years. November 2012 it went from 50 BTC's every 10 minutes to 25 BTC today and for another 3 more years before it gets halved again to 12.5 BTC for block reward. The network increases in difficulty to match the amount of processing power to keep it in line with it's original goals. Definitely the frustration for miners with ASIC hardware coming on line. Your expensive ASIC miner will only be profitable for about 6 months at MOST. Prior to that GPU's were profitable for about 2 years.

When I ordered my 60Giga Hash miner back in January of this year. The network difficulty was around 3 million. As of this writing the network difficulty is at 510 million. So an astronomical increase in difficulty. The reason I explain that is to show that the network self adjust to keep the 21 million ever mined in line with it's stated goal. You can keep throwing more and more hardware at it, but the difficulty will just go up to match so that no more than 21 million coins will be mined by the year 2140 something.

I understand that.
But the logic some here have is like saying you would rather have 50 marbles over 25 marbles. Both are basically worthless.
It's the dollars we want!
If bitcoins mined gets halved every year and dollar price goes up 4 times, I'll gladly take the 25 bitcoins at 4X the price.
Hence more bitcoins.

It's is nice to see bitcoins getting cheaper to mine.

[Ares]

One problem, is that mining is becoming increasingly centralized, which is inherent in the design, whether intended or not.

I look at it as following the gold rush. When it first starts, even pan handlers can make a killing if they're on a hot spot (CPU mining). Then the adoption of a sluse box (GPU mining). To industrial strip mining (ASIC farms in dedicated data centers).

That's my analogy for the evolution of Bitcoin mining. I have a few stocks in an ASIC mining facility in Germany, I only invested because I see where that's the route it's going to take. Small scale mining is a thing of the past.

[EE_]

The dollar value doesn't matter to Bitcoin purists.

OMG, that is so funny! Thanks for the laugh! :)

[Horn]

This picture best describes the relationship between Bitcoin and the dollar.

http://thecyn.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Signs-of-Cocaine-Addiction-650x390.jpg

[Ares]

This picture best explains the relationship between Bitcoin and the dollar.

http://thecyn.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Signs-of-Cocaine-Addiction-650x390.jpg

If it is a banker at the other end of that dollar snorting the cocaine then you would be correct.

[Horn]

If it is a banker at the other end of that dollar snorting the cocaine then you would be correct.

First you have to admire a thing first before the Love comes.

Cocaine whores that end up in the gutter after a nights use hardly fit that bill.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afSAu5bHs3A

[sirgonzo420]

I look at it as following the gold rush. When it first starts, even pan handlers can make a killing if they're on a hot spot (CPU mining). Then the adoption of a sluse box (GPU mining). To industrial strip mining (ASIC farms in dedicated data centers).

That's my analogy for the evolution of Bitcoin mining. I have a few stocks in an ASIC mining facility in Germany, I only invested because I see where that's the route it's going to take. Small scale mining is a thing of the past.

There will be a point, I think, where "little people" don't make their own bitcoin transactions, but rather the transactions are handled by bank-ish clearinghouses similar to 'Coinbase'.

Accounts may be held in bitcoin or backed by bitcoin, but I'm not sure that the Bitcoin that early adopters know will be the same Bitcoin that becomes mainstream.

The Bitcoin protocol allows for a lot more uses than are currently being exercised.


It is programmable internet cash. It's like an ounce of gold that can transcend geography, and be instructed or programmed to do something. Bitcoin could be used to handle probate/wills automatically. You could set up a transaction which could send your granddaughter bitcoin, and have it programmed to let her have access when she turns 18.

I'm a reasonably smart guy, and the implications of Bitcoin are staggering even to me, and I've been reading about it since damn near the very beginning.

And I have tried to introduce the topic here over the past several years without becoming some sort of a pariah, because bitcoins aren't made of metal.

Well, some bitcoins *are* kind of made of metal... see Casascius coins. https://www.casascius.com/

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/markj113/531px-Casascius_gold_coin_zps16931161.jpg



This is a gold and silver forum.

This forum is on the internet.

Bitcoin is gold and silver for the internet.

This should be a place to be able to discuss Bitcoin without people freaking out.

[EE_]

I look at it as following the gold rush. When it first starts, even pan handlers can make a killing if they're on a hot spot (CPU mining). Then the adoption of a sluse box (GPU mining). To industrial strip mining (ASIC farms in dedicated data centers).

That's my analogy for the evolution of Bitcoin mining. I have a few stocks in an ASIC mining facility in Germany, I only invested because I see where that's the route it's going to take. Small scale mining is a thing of the past.

Why is small scale mining a thing of the past, when the cost to mine is dropping drastically?

In late 2012 what was the cost to mine 50 bitcoins? The late 2012 price was $10 - Dollar value was $500

Today what is the cost to mine 2 bitcoins? Price, call it $300 - Dollar value is $7,500

I'd rather be a miner today!

[madfranks]

This is why bitcoins are an investment, not a currency. Why would I trade one bitcoin for another person's widgets when in a year from now that bitcoin will be worth a lot more in relative value?


Once again, you're buying into the Keynesian paradigm! This is the exact reason why the Fed mandates inflation, because they say, if your money doesn't keep getting worth less and less, people won't spend it, so by making your money worth less every year, we promote spending. But! Spending does not drive an economy, saving does! You need capital to build factories, buildings and businesses. Where does that capital come from? Saving! By punishing savers by diluting the value of their saved money, they discourage capital investment and building for the future. "Hoarding" is the same as "saving", and put back into bitcoin terms, if I save my BTC now, that signals the market that I am not spending my money on products today, but am looking forward to buying products in the future. The market tells producers to invest in future oriented goods so that those people who are holding their bitcoins will be enticed to spend them in the future. And, in the future, when there are more goods offered for sale, there will be a segment of people who were not willing to spend their money when only X items were for sale will be willing to spend their money when Xn items are for sale. The end result is more goods and more services offered for less money, and everyone is wealthier. This is the mechanism that propelled America during the industrial revolution when gold and silver were the monies of the realm. Productivity and livings standards increased all across the country, and prices fell.

[EE_]

There will be a point, I think, where "little people" don't make their own bitcoin transactions, but rather the transactions are handled by bank-ish clearinghouses similar to 'Coinbase'.

Accounts may be held in bitcoin or backed by bitcoin, but I'm not sure that the Bitcoin that early adopters know will be the same Bitcoin that becomes mainstream.

The Bitcoin protocol allows for a lot more uses than are currently being exercised.


It is programmable internet cash. It's like an ounce of gold that can transcend geography, and be instructed or programmed to do something. Bitcoin could be used to handle probate/wills automatically. You could set up a transaction which could send your granddaughter bitcoin, and have it programmed to let her have access when she turns 18.

I'm a reasonably smart guy, and the implications of Bitcoin are staggering even to me, and I've been reading about it since damn near the very beginning.

That's why there's so many questions. Questioning leads to discovery.

[Ares]

There will be a point, I think, where "little people" don't make their own bitcoin transactions, but rather the transactions are handled by bank-ish clearinghouses similar to 'Coinbase'.

Accounts may be held in bitcoin or backed by bitcoin, but I'm not sure that the Bitcoin that early adopters know will be the same Bitcoin that becomes mainstream.

The Bitcoin protocol allows for a lot more uses than are currently being exercised.


It is programmable internet cash. It's like an ounce of gold that can transcend geography, and be instructed or programmed to do something. Bitcoin could be used to handle probate/wills automatically. You could set up a transaction which could send your granddaughter bitcoin, and have it programmed to let her have access when she turns 18.

I'm a reasonably smart guy, and the implications of Bitcoin are staggering even to me, and I've been reading about it since damn near the very beginning.

Yep, Satoshi was either a certified Genius, or a borderline lunatic to have come up with this on his own. Me personally feel it was a collaborative effort. As many as 5-10 different people taking part in it's planning and early development stages. At least from I've gathered via reading the archived forums where Satoshi posted.

Some post were grammatically flawless, other post had grammatical errors left and right (your instead of you're etc.) Kind of reminds me of Tyler Durden from ZeroHedge.

Anyway, they are currently working on a project called "MaserCoin" which sits on top of the Bitcoin protocol and uses more of its potential.

http://www.mastercoin.org/

Looks promising.

[Horn]

OMG, as if Litcoin wouldn't make a hugely competitive surge before any clearing houses get involved.

This whole "original rights" notion doesn't play any factor whatsoever when choosing cocaine whores.

Its the one who hasn't been gaped in last nights romp.

Only the tightest of e-slits will be necessary.

I'm not calling anyone crazy notice, you're all high.

[EE_]

Once again, you're buying into the Keynesian paradigm! This is the exact reason why the Fed mandates inflation, because they say, if your money doesn't keep getting worth less and less, people won't spend it, so by making your money worth less every year, we promote spending. But! Spending does not drive an economy, saving does! You need capital to build factories, buildings and businesses. Where does that capital come from? Saving! By punishing savers by diluting the value of their saved money, they discourage capital investment and building for the future. "Hoarding" is the same as "saving", and put back into bitcoin terms, if I save my BTC now, that signals the market that I am not spending my money on products today, but am looking forward to buying products in the future. The market tells producers to invest in future oriented goods so that those people who are holding their bitcoins will be enticed to spend them in the future. And, in the future, when there are more goods offered for sale, there will be a segment of people who were not willing to spend their money when only X items were for sale will be willing to spend their money when Xn items are for sale. The end result is more goods and more services offered for less money, and everyone is wealthier. This is the mechanism that propelled America during the industrial revolution when gold and silver were the monies of the realm. Productivity and livings standards increased all across the country, and prices fell.

But we are living in a Keynesian paradigm. If the dollar crashed completely, how would you buy or sell your bitcoins.
Where would the bankers be?

[Ares]

Why is small scale mining a thing of the past, when the cost to mine is dropping drastically?

Unless you can compete with peta hash mining pools, you'll never mine a single block. Mining pools are morphing in to ASIC farms. Yeah you're free to come and go as you please. But your rewards are based on the amount of hashing power you can contribute. Unless you've got access to High hash rate hardware at a reasonable price, with low electricity cost, it just won't be profitable. When you lease data center space, you can get electricity for 3-5 cents a kilowatt. You can't get anywhere near that rate in your home.

Why I said small scale mining will be obsolete in about a year or 2 at best. Definitely by the time Bitcoin gets halved again to 12.5 BTC every 10 minutes.

[sirgonzo420]

Why is small scale mining a thing of the past, when the cost to mine is dropping drastically?

There is a "block" (processed batch of transactions) about every 10 minutes.

If there was only one person mining, that person will get (currently) 25btc every 10 minutes on average.

If two, people, that number is cut in half. Right now though, lots of people are mining with increasingly efficient equipment, so the slice of the pie gets continually smaller.

The more gigahashes one is capable of producing, the more bitcoins one can expect to mine.

It gets harder and harder to mine, dependent on how many miners, in order to keep in line with the design specs.

[EE_]

There is a "block" (processed batch of transactions) about every 10 minutes.

If there was only one person mining, that person will get (currently) 25btc every 10 minutes on average.

If two, people, that number is cut in half. Right now though, lots of people are mining with increasingly efficient equipment, so the slice of the pie gets continually smaller.

The more gigahashes one is capable of producing, the more bitcoins one can expect to mine.

It gets harder and harder to mine, dependent on how many miners, in order to keep in line with the design specs.

So you are saying, halving bitcoins aside, it's getting too difficult for a common man to mine at all.
I'm guessing you are saying we no longer have the computer power to do so?
It would take someone with unlimited financial means and access to super computing power...like a banker or government?

[Ares]

It would take someone with unlimited financial means and access to super computing power...like a banker or government?

Not really, as there are literally hundreds of thousands, if not maybe a million or so miners world wide taking part in this. If the Government or bankers were to build / buy their ASIC hardware and start a 51% attack the network could just ignore them. I saw it with Litecoin recently. Someone with ENORMOUS hashing power kept pool hopping between WeMineLTC, and Litecoinpool they brought their concerns up to the litecoin development community and were able to "block" that person from mining at all. He or they eventually gave up and haven't been seen since.

How they went about doing that I'm not sure, but it's proof that the real honest mining community can prevent such an attack.

[Horn]

But we are living in a . If the dollar crashed completely, how would you buy or sell your bitcoins.
Where would the bankers be?

We don't need to live in a Keynesian paradigm.

What Franks doesn't understand is that people will trade sticks if they can't get their hands on Bitcoins.

As they did in England for a thousand years.

Base growth is a necessity for any monetary currency, the volume of which should be controlled by the people using it.

Not an elite cabal, or deflationary mathematic programs.

Bitcoin inherently disparages against divisions.

A whole Bitcoin is choice, the roaches just won't do.

Litecoin will be used as a roach if it comes to smokin roaches.

Bitcoin inherently dissuades from division. (it wants to be a full one)

Like Tom Jones.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQnsN3um-iQ

kinda of warm cozy, but known to be a plastic fake acting Love.

[gunDriller]

the term 'bit-coin mining' implies that your computer sits there de-crypting to obtain the BTC codes associated with BTC creation ... something like that.

Does the software to do this utilize the power of (for example) and nVidia Titan video card ?

i have 2 Intel 6-core machines, and 1 AMD 6-core. all candidates for heavy duty work.

if i run them to do "Bitcoin Mining", how do the financials work out ? (e.g. how many hours of operation to get a bitcoin on a 3930K system with 32 GB RAM ? ... it's about 450 watts)

[Ares]

if i run them to do "Bitcoin Mining", how do the financials work out ? (e.g. how many hours of operation to get a bitcoin on a 3930K system with 32 GB RAM ? ... it's about 450 watts)

Not so well for you unfortunately. The time where you could mine bitcoins with a CPU and video card are over. ASIC (Application Specific Integrated Circuit) has changed the game of mining completely.

Even with my dedicated Litecoin mining rig, if I were to point towards Bitcoin and mine them at just barely 1.2Giga Hash, I could (if I'm lucky) mine a block in 57 years, 360 days.

Even with my 60GH ASIC miner I'm still looking at 1 year, 58 days to mine a block. That is Solo by the way, and that's with the current 510 million+ difficulty.

[Horn]

Warning contains graphic skinny tart.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xpsy75_ladybytes-tells-us-about-bitcoin_tech

https://www.bitmit.net/de/img/bitmit_update.png .. is undergoing maintenance
We expect to be back in 30 minutes.

[mick silver]

So you are saying, halving bitcoins aside, it's getting too difficult for a common man to mine at all.
I'm guessing you are saying we no longer have the computer power to do so?
It would take someone with unlimited financial means and access to super computing power...like a banker or government? NSA does

[Horn]

Major Bitcoin theft from website, claims owner


8 November 2013 Last updated at 16:22 GMT

A man who ran an online "wallet service" for storing Bitcoins has claimed hackers stole virtual currency from his site worth more than one million Australian dollars.

The Australian man said 4,100 Bitcoins (US$1.04m, £650,000) were taken in two separate attacks.

He said he would not report the theft to police as Bitcoin transactions are virtually impossible to trace.
This has led some users to speculate whether it was an "inside job".

In a radio interview with ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3886606.htm) the man, who only used his online name TradeFortress, denied being involved.
The Bitcoin virtual currency is increasingly used to pay for things online.

According to the Sydney Morning Herald, the theft occurred on 26 October but users were only alerted this week via a message he posted on the wallet service's website.

"I know this doesn't mean much, but I'm sorry, and saying that I'm very sad that this has happened is an understatement.

"Please don't store Bitcoins on an internet-connected device, regardless if it is your own or a service's."

Bitcoin is the most well known of a handful of virtual currencies. The currencies are developed through a computer process called "mining" and can be traded on exchanges or privately between users.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24871444

Keynote here, take your internet gold with you, but not anywhere near the internet.

Except when plugging yourself in for the "Big Market Cap" selloff.

Gotta luv it, its also like that untouchable whore on the corner that nobody would dare touch. How deliciously ugly.

Or having a guy dressed up as the hamburglar waiting for you in front of the local coin shop.

5626

[Ares]

NSA does

At 3731 TeraHashs or 47387.66 PetaFlops there isn't a super computer on the planet (or even all 500 world super computers put together for that matter) that can even come close to matching it let alone over taking the network.

So to correct your statement. The NSA does NOT.

[Ares]

Major Bitcoin theft from website, claims owner


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-24871444

Keynote here, take your internet gold with you, but not anywhere near the internet.

Except when plugging yourself in for the "Big Market Cap" selloff.

Gotta luv it, its also like that untouchable whore on the corner that nobody would dare touch. How deliciously ugly.

Or having a guy dressed up as the hamburglar waiting for you in front of the local coin shop.

5626

So do you blame the currency when there is a bank robbery?

[Horn]

So do you blame the currency when there is a bank robbery?

Yes. you could never make off that easily loaded down with PMs.

Bitcoins are far too light, along with dollars, though they are on par with e-dollars and Jamie Dimon.

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/cost_of_war/cost_of_war.html

5627

[Ares]

Yes. you could never make off that easily loaded down with PMs.

Bitcoins are far too light, along with dollars.

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/cost_of_war/cost_of_war.html

5627

LOL smartass

[Horn]

Meet the divisional resistance.

In the case of Bitcoin (the anti-anti) its weakness is its want and need of remaining whole.



The first thing that I noted, is that the after syncing with the network that took me 12 hours, the database grew to 13GB.


IMHO, this is one of about 2-3 flaws with BTC. One big selling point for bitcoin is that it's "decentralized". If the popularity of bitcoin continues, "super-nodes" will need to be implemented and people will begin to prefer online, centralized bitcoin generation mechanisms, payment processors and wallets. The "dream" of cryptographic currency, for many of us, is to have a currency that is as completely decentralized as is possible. Bitcoin, as a tech, was a wonderful start. However, I do not foresee bitcoin being the tech for such a long term goal. – RLH (http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/users/16/rlh) Nov 4 at 20:04 (http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/14325/bitcoin-blockchain-size-preacticality#comment18311_14325)



http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/14325/bitcoin-blockchain-size-preacticality

(http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/14325/bitcoin-blockchain-size-preacticality)

[sirgonzo420]

Meet the divisional resistance.

In the case of Bitcoin (the anti-anti) its weakness is its want and need of remaining whole.





http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/14325/bitcoin-blockchain-size-preacticality

(http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/14325/bitcoin-blockchain-size-preacticality)

Horn, I am digging your new avatar.

[Horn]

A lost rite of initiation at all Christian schools, replaced by thin manufactured rice waffers.

5635

[woodman]

So what if all the stories are false and the Rothchilds are actually the issuers of bitcoin? Would anyone be surprised? Would it matter?

[Ares]

So what if all the stories are false and the Rothchilds are actually the issuers of bitcoin? Would anyone be surprised? Would it matter?

huh? No one issues Bitcoins. It's a reward for keeping the Blockchain up to date and processes transactions.

[Horn]

Bitcoin is nothing more than a pump and dump dollar velocity generator.

Along with Litecoin, Worldcoin, Domino Pizza Coins etc.

[woodman]

huh? No one issues Bitcoins. It's a reward for keeping the Blockchain up to date and processes transactions.

I am pretty ignorant about the whole thing. Seems like it could be a great boon if it doesn't get compromised. Have there been any cases of theft or impropriety? How can we be sure that only so many are available?

[Ares]

I am pretty ignorant about the whole thing. Seems like it could be a great boon if it doesn't get compromised. Have there been any cases of theft or impropriety? How can we be sure that only so many are available?

Yep, there have been cases of theft. Usually the result of someone compromising an account by having an easy password, or the site or exchange didn't put security measures in place to keep someone out. Kind of like a bank, there will always be robbers.

We can be sure there are so many is it is hard coded into the protocol. There will never be more than 21 million, ever. You can view the Bitcoin source code if you'd like and confirm it.

[sirgonzo420]

http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/bitcoin-dark-wallet

A project to increase and maintain anonymity in Bitcoin.

https://darkwallet.unsystem.net/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Ouo7Q6Cf_yc

[sirgonzo420]

I should have had this post at the top of the thread, but alas, I cannot edit.

This is from the creator of Bitcoin:


I've developed a new open source P2P e-cash system called Bitcoin. It's completely decentralized, with no central server or trusted parties, because everything is based on crypto proof instead of trust. Give it a try, or take a look at the screenshots and design paper:

Download Bitcoin v0.1 at http://www.bitcoin.org

The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy, trust them not to let identity thieves drain our accounts. Their massive overhead costs make micropayments impossible.

A generation ago, multi-user time-sharing computer systems had a similar problem. Before strong encryption, users had to rely on password protection to secure their files, placing trust in the system administrator to keep their information private. Privacy could always be overridden by the admin based on his judgment call weighing the principle of privacy against other concerns, or at the behest of his superiors. Then strong encryption became available to the masses, and trust was no longer required. Data could be secured in a way that was physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter what.

It's time we had the same thing for money. With e-currency based on cryptographic proof, without the need to trust a third party middleman, money can be secure and transactions effortless.

One of the fundamental building blocks for such a system is digital signatures. A digital coin contains the public key of its owner. To transfer it, the owner signs the coin together with the public key of the next owner. Anyone can check the signatures to verify the chain of ownership. It works well to secure ownership, but leaves one big problem unsolved: double-spending. Any owner could try to re-spend an already spent coin by signing it again to another owner. The usual solution is for a trusted company with a central database to check for double-spending, but that just gets back to the trust model. In its central position, the company can override the users, and the fees needed to support the company make micropayments impractical.

Bitcoin's solution is to use a peer-to-peer network to check for double-spending. In a nutshell, the network works like a distributed timestamp server, stamping the first transaction to spend a coin. It takes advantage of the nature of information being easy to spread but hard to stifle. For details on how it works, see the design paper at http://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

The result is a distributed system with no single point of failure. Users hold the crypto keys to their own money and transact directly with each other, with the help of the P2P network to check for double-spending.

Satoshi Nakamoto
http://www.bitcoin.org

http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source?xg_source=activity




(http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source?xg_source=activity)

[mick silver]

Warning: Please be careful with your money.http://howtobuybitcoins.info/img/miniflags/us.pnghttp://howtobuybitcoins.info/img/miniflags/cn.pnghttp://howtobuybitcoins.info/img/miniflags/es.pnghttp://howtobuybitcoins.info/img/miniflags/jp.pnghttp://howtobuybitcoins.info/img/miniflags/fr.pngWhen sending money to an exchange, you are trusting the operator to not steal your funds, and that their site is secure.

It is recommended you obtain the real-world identity of the operator and ensure that sufficient recourse is available.
Exchanging or storing significant amounts of funds with third-parties is not recommended.

Bitcoin services are not highly regulated so a service can continue operating even when it is widely believed that it is insecure or dishonest. Also, webpages recommending them (such as this one) may not be regularly updated. (However, saying that, the site is open-source (https://github.com/jonwaller/howtobuybitcoinsinfo-website), and I try to respond quickly to emails (info@howtobuybitcoins.info).)



(https://coinbase.com/)

[EE_]

Warning: Please be careful with your money.http://howtobuybitcoins.info/img/miniflags/us.pnghttp://howtobuybitcoins.info/img/miniflags/cn.pnghttp://howtobuybitcoins.info/img/miniflags/es.pnghttp://howtobuybitcoins.info/img/miniflags/jp.pnghttp://howtobuybitcoins.info/img/miniflags/fr.pngWhen sending money to an exchange, you are trusting the operator to not steal your funds, and that their site is secure.

It is recommended you obtain the real-world identity of the operator and ensure that sufficient recourse is available.
Exchanging or storing significant amounts of funds with third-parties is not recommended.

Bitcoin services are not highly regulated so a service can continue operating even when it is widely believed that it is insecure or dishonest. Also, webpages recommending them (such as this one) may not be regularly updated. (However, saying that, the site is open-source (https://github.com/jonwaller/howtobuybitcoinsinfo-website), and I try to respond quickly to emails (info@howtobuybitcoins.info).)



(https://coinbase.com/)

Now you tell me this, after we just went all in?
You make it digital currencies sound like the wild west...anything goes, no laws?
Sounds like scamming is part of the game?
There's probably a few million Chinese hackers are working dilligently to scam the game, right at this very moment.

http://comicrelated.com/graphics/columns/tvparty/wildwildwest/Wild-Wild-West.jpg

[mick silver]

i started a site to sell mickcoin , there half the price of bitcoin . hurry up and order your today before it to late to get in on the ground floor

[Ares]

i started a site to sell mickcoin , there half the price of bitcoin . hurry up and order your today before it to late to get in on the ground floor

What algorithm did you use? What's the proof of work? How is it mined? Where is the client to start mining it? What's the number of mickcoins that will ever be in existence? Was it pre-mined? How long was it beta tested before being released into the wild? What's the block reward?

Sarcasm and stupidity are not a logical response to any idea whether you agree with it or not.

[EE_]

i started a site to sell mickcoin , there half the price of bitcoin . hurry up and order your today before it to late to get in on the ground floor

I'm in for a 100 mic's
Here's my account # 367810008362290 My pin # 1234
I trust you :)

[EE_]

What algorithm did you use? What's the proof of work? How is it mined? Where is the client to start mining it? What's the number of mickcoins that will ever be in existence? Was it pre-mined? How long was it beta tested before being released into the wild? What's the block reward?

Sarcasm and stupidity are not a logical response to any idea whether you agree with it or not.

Please cool out friend.
I realize this is serious shit to you. You're up a substantial amount of money. You're probably worried about it, understandably so...I'd be too.

I'm sure you already have plans for the money and that's making you nervous.
You probably don't have much of your own cash in the game, but it's not about that.

These are times that separate people, winners from losers.
Those with the biggest balls can become very wealthy...or jump out a 15 story window.

As hard as it must be to leave so much possible money on the table, sometimes it's better to have peace of mind.

We'll still be your friend if it doesn't work out ;)

[Ares]

Please cool out friend.
I realize this is serious shit to you. You're up a substantial amount of money. You're probably worried about it, understandably so...I'd be too.

I'm not worried about it at all, it could go to zero tomorrow and I'd be out 2k, that's my investment in Bitcoin, with the bitcoin miner, and the litecoin rig I built earlier this year. Yep it would suck, but I've lost more on lesser investment... 401k anyone??


I'm sure you already have plans for the money and that's making you nervous.
You probably don't have much of your own cash in the game, but it's not about that.

Not much of my own money at all. As far as plans?? Actually I don't have any. I don't count my chickens before they hatch it's unwise and leads to bad decisions.


These are times that separate people, winners from losers.

As hard as it must be to leave so much possible money on the table, sometimes it's better to have peace of mind.

That's impossible to have in these times. Virtual currencies could go to zero tomorrow if someone finds a flaw in the algorithm that protects them. They'd be worthless in a heart beat. Same can go for government issued fiat money. The Saudi's could say they are no longer going to accept dollars for oil. Dollar goes poof over night. The only piece of mind I have is knowing that I have a good stash of gold, silver, ammo and weapons.. All at the bottom of a lake at the moment unfortunately. :D

[EE_]

I'm not worried about it at all, it could go to zero tomorrow and I'd be out 2k, that's my investment in Bitcoin, with the bitcoin miner, and the litecoin rig I built earlier this year. Yep it would suck, but I've lost more on lesser investment... 401k anyone??



Not much of my own money at all. As far as plans?? Actually I don't have any. I don't count my chickens before they hatch it's unwise and leads to bad decisions.



That's impossible to have in these times. Virtual currencies could go to zero tomorrow if someone finds a flaw in the algorithm that protects them. They'd be worthless in a heart beat. Same can go for government issued fiat money. The Saudi's could say they are no longer going to accept dollars for oil. Dollar goes poof over night. The only piece of mind I have is knowing that I have a good stash of gold, silver, ammo and weapons.. All at the bottom of a lake at the moment unfortunately. :D

Okay, good man!
Now quit trying to beat it into our heads.
You know there's a bunch of ass holes around here with no dog in this fight...me included. :D

[EE_]

Wish I had $2,000 worth of bitcoin @ $4 a pop. I'd be out and looking for a bigger property.

[sirgonzo420]

Okay, good man!
Now quit trying to beat it into our heads.
You know there's a bunch of ass holes around here with no dog in this fight...me included. :D


No one is trying to beat anything into your head.

You are in a thread that I started.

The first word of the thread title is "Bitcoin".

We are merely exposing the members of this forum to something that will very likely become a bigger thing than can really be imagined right now. As a side effect, there is profit to be made.

People here don't like FRNs, but most all of us use them... if any given member had a lawful chance to acquire pallets of FRNs for cheap, they might be inclined to take that opportunity.

With Bitcoin, a similar situation is present in that there is a chance for people to benefit from seigniorage.

The "original" Bitcoin client is not even 1.0 yet.... everyone who has any bitcoin now is an "early adopter".

I have relatives who feel similarly... I was telling them about Bitcoin when it was $1, and now they feel as if they have missed the boat, and I feel that they may be somewhat bitter.

[madfranks]

I bought 10 bitcoins at $40 a pop earlier this year, but spent lots of it once I realized how cool it was to spend.

[EE_]

Too bad you early guys weren't more forceful in the beginning.
Maybe you could have gotten everyone here on board for a $1,000 @ $4 a bitcoin
We'd be having a GSUS party in the Stratosphere Penthouse in Vegas tonight.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/media/2010/01/stratosphere.jpg

[Jewboo]

i started a site to sell mickcoin , there half the price of bitcoin . hurry up and order your today before it to late to get in on the ground floor




http://s1.ibtimes.com/sites/www.ibtimes.com/files/styles/v2_article_large/public/2013/07/30/ferrari-458-italia.jpg



Already made enough from my original $100 investment in Mickcoins to buy myself this car.


http://blizzforums.com/images/smilies/yippee.gif THANKS MICK!

[Horn]

You know there's a bunch of ass holes around here with no dog in this fight...me included. :D

Collateral damage is of 0% consequence when protecting your Silver from getting fried by E-flakes.

We need to be made Holy about this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9nfVrusSMg

[Horn]

Bitcoin lands on the sacred silver planet of GSUS,

EE_'s caught in the middle of winners and losers. Notice him clutching his necklace.

https://myspace.com/fastlane2hell/video/heavy-metal-mob-rules/4565217

[mick silver]

ares i am still waiting on your payment to mickcoin , as soon as i got your money i will place your order for you . just having fun ares . if you brought at 4 take what you have made an buy silver , it still cheap

[Ares]

ares i am still waiting on your payment to mickcoin , as soon as i got your money i will place your order for you . just having fun ares . if you brought at 4 take what you have made an buy silver , it still cheap

I bought in at 10, so yeah I've made my money back. The more I study free markets economics the more I see gold, silver, and virtual currencies filling the void left by centrally controlled and manipulated banks and governments. We all have a dog in this fight, as its our very god given rights at stake. Humans can use any medium of exchange they so chose, why does it need to be issued from a bank or government in order to have "value"? and be trusted? The trust in banks and institutions is unwarranted as history has proven they break that trust whenever it suits them.

Do I think governments will sit idly by while their power and means of taxation drain away from them? Nope absolutely not. They'll fight like hell to maintain the power they have stolen.

[mick silver]

Do I think governments will sit idly by while their power and means of taxation drain away from them? Nope absolutely not. They'll fight like hell to maintain the power they have stolen. ............ and this is why i say they will not let bitcoin live unless they are the ones controlling it . you said it ares

[Ares]

and this is why i say they will not let bitcoin live unless they are the ones controlling it . you said it ares

And that's where they'll run into problems. They can try but it will expose them for the corrupt psychopaths that they are. Since it is borderless and stateless and doesn't exist except it virtual space, it doesn't belong to them. The more the market cap grows within the virtual currency sector the more they are cut out of the loop. What's to stop say a major retailer like Amazon to pick up and move their servers to a jurisdiction outside of the United States? When you make a purchase on amazon with a virtual currency, (they do have their own called "Amazon Coins" that you can only use there) how do you tax it? Amazon has closed warehouses and distribution centers in states who try to tax it too heavily for doing business.

They could just as easily pack up and move operation to a more tax friendly state, or nation in a matter of months. So their ability to regulate and tax an object they do not issue or control is limited. But they will most definitely try. Just like John Wycliffe who translated the Bible from Latin to English in England in 1382. The church was furious that every day common folk could now read the bible without having to go to church. To show their disdain they dug up his bones and burned them after he died. Yep extremely stupid and petty from a supposedly "powerful institution", but don't expect any less from megalomaniacs.

[Horn]

I see gold, silver, and virtual currencies filling the void left by centrally controlled and manipulated banks and governments.

You're starting to contradict yourself, but we'll forgive you for the sake of convenience.

The studying of free markets is a exorcize in futility as none have ever existed, so what you're mostly concerned with is the formed idea of a free market, with a monetary instrument that could perform to compliment it as a standard trade unit. Failure to agree on what that standard is will effectively undermine any chance at achieving ones goal. Nothing is completely free, everything needs a "ballast" or anchor reference point to operate. A free roaming sailboat is an example of such, without ballast it becomes a lily pad, dead unmoving. 3 of the same weighted ballasts would also make it unmoveable. (Your free idea will not make the starting gate) due to a constant shifting, and ability of your enemies (who hate your idea) to play nutshell games with you, moving your ballasts to and froe.

Examining our given monetary candidates and making a clear and indivisible choice of best based on merit is the summary for standard.

Which defines what the best money is?


Aristotle defined the characteristics of a good form of money:

1.) It must be durable. Money must stand the test of time and the elements. It must not fade, corrode, or change through time.


2.) It must be portable. Money hold a high amount of 'worth' relative to its weight and size.


3.) It must be divisible. Money should be relatively easy to separate and re-combine without affecting its fundamental characteristics. An extension of this idea is that the item should be 'fungible'. Dictionary.com describes fungible as:


"(esp. of goods) being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind."


4.) It must have intrinsic value. This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself.



Make a choice as ballast, then your free to sail.

[sirgonzo420]

Horn, have you read the Bitcoin whitepaper?

[Ares]

You're starting to contradict yourself, but we'll forgive you for the sake of convenience.

The studying free markets is a exorcize in futility as none have ever existed, so what you're mostly concerned with is the formed idea of a free market, with a monetary instrument that could perform to compliment it as a standard trade unit. Failure to agree on what that standard is will effectively undermine any chance at achieving ones goal. Nothing is completely free, everything needs a "ballast" or anchor reference point to operate. A free roaming sailboat is an example of such, without ballast it becomes a lily pad, dead unmoving. 3 of the same weighted ballasts would also make it unmoveable. (Your free idea will not make the starting gate) due to a constant shifting, and ability of your enemies (who hate your idea) to play nutshell games with you, moving your ballasts to and froe.

Examining our given monetary candidates and making a clear and indivisible choice of best based on merit is the summary for standard.

Which defines what the best money is?



Make a choice as ballast, then your free to sail.

Not contradicting myself at all, and I'm well aware that we haven't had a free market. The only true "Free market" is the black market as it exist outside of anyones control, and the free market regulates its prices on how rare or difficult the items are to procure. Most of the items sold there are deemed "illegal" by the state which usually elevates the prices of said items be they, guns, other weapons and explosives or drugs and alcohol. Let's not forget that the Kennedy's made their "money" being bootleggers during prohibition. So is it really in the states best interest to deem items or substances "illegal" creating a market of demand for said items outside of their control and taxing authority? That's a completely different topic of discussion though.

The same definitions of money have been used for 2,000+ years. It started as sea shells, tally stick, then to gold and silver. The reason was because of rarity "intrinsic value" and freely exchangeable. Weight and size came later when it became necessary for divisibility. I believe it was the ancient Greeks that settled on weight for units of account.

I view everything that is transpiring in the world today with libertarianism rising (albet slower than I or I'm sure anyone here would like) to virtual currencies springing up as the "free market" looking for ways to be unconstrained as regulators and taxes become too oppressive to continue dealing with.

Even when the U.S. was on a gold standard it issued redeemable paper currency, did the paper have intrinsic value? Or was the fact that it was redeemable it's valuable quality?

[Horn]

Horn, have you read the Bitcoin whitepaper?

Its in my encrypted wallet, and I forgot the password.

No need to link me elsewhere, as I'm sure it was the original.

Some phantom downloaded it onto there for me, and I trust nobody else.

[Ares]

Its in my encrypted wallet, and I forgot the password.

No need to link me elsewhere, as I'm sure it was the original.

Some phantom downloaded it onto there for me, and I trust nobody else.

I do have to ask though..... Why are you promoting a crypto currency under your name Horn? .999 Unobtanium. I didn't think you'd ever be a promoter of crypt currencies.

http://unobtanium.info/

http://nebula.wsimg.com/9ea8cd086c8ff26779dd73a3bd435ebb?AccessKeyId=6B30D 49DE29388A64FE7&disposition=0

:D

[sirgonzo420]

Its in my encrypted wallet, and I forgot the password.

No need to link me elsewhere, as I'm sure it was the original.

Some phantom downloaded it onto there for me, and I trust nobody else.


I'll take that as a "no, I have not read it". :)

Costa Rica is a faggy hellhole of a third world banana republic.... I've never been there, and haven't met anyone from Costa Rica, but I've got it all figured out.

[Horn]

Not contradicting myself at all,

I can link you to several scathing reviews that you've given Gold & Silver.

Why you made those reviews (in my estimation) is because you view Gold & Silver from a Gold standard perspective.

[Ares]

I can link you to several scathing reviews that you've given Gold & Silver.

Why you made those reviews (in my estimation) is because you view Gold & Silver from a Gold standard perspective.

What? Where I said Gold will never be a free market solution? How about you take what I said in context instead of cherry picking? I said that only because of a globally connected world. It will never be used as a currency. Transportation and logistics to insure its safe transport are a logistical nightmare. How would I go about sending you a gold or silver coin? Mail it and hope it doesn't get stolen along the way? If I purchase something from you with gold or silver, how do you get paid?

See the problems? But never have I EVER said gold or silver are without value.

[Horn]

I'll take that as a "no, I have not read it". :)

Costa Rica is a faggy hellhole of a third world banana republic.... I've never been there, and haven't met anyone from Costa Rica, but I've got it all figured out.

You should come, sirswayalot.

Bring a couple 100 Eagles, we could have fun chucking at each others forehead and whoring them out on the street.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u5A0H6PkqE

[Horn]

See the problems? But never have I EVER said gold or silver are without value.

We're still looking for answer to the standard ballast choice question, as agreed upon between you and me.

So long as each of us shows what we have in our wallets, any number of related "new world" transfer devices can be created to speed things up on the trade side.

We'll settle accounts here hopefully before the end of the year, and Christmas.

I'm hoping for a silver one.

[madfranks]

Which defines what the best money is?


Aristotle defined the characteristics of a good form of money:

1.) It must be durable. Money must stand the test of time and the elements. It must not fade, corrode, or change through time.


2.) It must be portable. Money hold a high amount of 'worth' relative to its weight and size.


3.) It must be divisible. Money should be relatively easy to separate and re-combine without affecting its fundamental characteristics. An extension of this idea is that the item should be 'fungible'. Dictionary.com describes fungible as:


"(esp. of goods) being of such nature or kind as to be freely exchangeable or replaceable, in whole or in part, for another of like nature or kind."


4.) It must have intrinsic value. This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself.



Aristotle's characteristics of good money are rooted in the physical world. Today we have funds moving through computers, electronic checking, debit, direct deposit, e-gold, virtual currencies, fiat exchanges, etc. None of which meet Aristotle's criteria, but all of which are currently being used as money.

[Horn]

Aristotle's characteristics of good money are rooted in the physical world. Today we have funds moving through computers, electronic checking, debit, direct deposit, e-gold, virtual currencies, fiat exchanges, etc. None of which meet Aristotle's criteria, but all of which are currently being used as money.

ie: the exemplified result and reason for most if not all our problems since the 70's.

But nonetheless madfranks says "let's expand further in this direction with E-coins" and see where it leads us in this our physical world.

We exist in none other but. Or are you suggesting there are multiple worlds hither to unknown that beseech our existence?

Which is your choice as the standard root and ballast in our physical existence, or are you saving for the afterlife?

madfranks that is your real name isn't it?

[EE_]

Aristotle's characteristics of good money are rooted in the physical world. Today we have funds moving through computers, electronic checking, debit, direct deposit, e-gold, virtual currencies, fiat exchanges, etc. None of which meet Aristotle's criteria, but all of which are currently being used as money.

True money is something tangible. Everything else is a claim on money, or medium of exchange.
All these claims on money that move electronically are really digital currency.

Bitcoin is another claim on money that removes the taxing of these electronic transfers. At this time, bitcoin offers a level of anonymity the others claims don't have. What bitcoin doesn't have, is the level of protection that the existing claims do.

Bitcoin is a wild west solution looking for a problem. Bitcoin has scamming built into it's platform. There are no laws protecting it, or laws period...therefore anyone that has the ability to hack, steal or defraud this digital claim is in their right to do so and nothing can be done to prosecute theft, or recover these claims. You can talk about what's morally right or wrong all day long, but the world is not a very moral place anymore, is it?

How many people will be willing to deposit large sums of money in bitcoin with the intent of crossing a border and avoid taxes? Would anyone be willing to risk the exchange going down, or having it stolen?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aeQ3DmKU7A

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fvSYT7vhQY

[Horn]

How many people will be willing to deposit large sums of money in bitcoin with the intent of crossing a border and avoid taxes? Would anyone be willing to risk the exchange going down, or having it stolen?

If you're jewish, and or have strong connections to Harvard with high profile media attention, no hacker would target your Bitcoins.

Even Satoshi himself would be jealous.

[madfranks]

True money is something tangeble.

Not that I disagree with you, but why does true money have to be tangible?

[Horn]

This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself = tangible.

I'm thinking the FED loves the Bit-stuff, among other intangibles that we can't touch.

they're more welcome to it then they ever were to silver bi-metalism when a gold only was standard.



FEC approval would be “yet more recognition from the federal government that bitcoin is a serious new technology that is here to stay and that people want to use in their everyday lives,” said Jerry Brito, senior research fellow at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University and director of its technology policy program. “Current regulation does not take into account anything like bitcoin, and so regulators are having to figure out how to apply existing rules and laws.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/got-bitcoin-fec-may-let-candidates-pacs-accept-the-digital-currency/2013/11/14/3dadc8a8-4c9a-11e3-ac54-aa84301ced81_story.html

[EE_]

Not that I disagree with you, but why does true money have to be tangible?

Because all currencies have to be traded for something tangible before they have any true value.
All currencies are just a claim on something of intrinsic value.
Isn't this obvious?

[sirgonzo420]

Because all currencies have to be traded for something tangible before they have any true value.
All currencies are just a claim on something of intrinsic value.
Isn't this obvious?

Bitcoin has intrinsic value as a distributed peer-to-peer accounts ledger, which prevents double-spending of a mathematically limited number of full units, secured by cryptographic keys which will not be able to be broken by man or his computers for a long, long, long time. The keyspace is ridiculously huge... like many orders of magnitude more than the number of grains of sand on Earth.


lol at EE_ and Hornw with their: "there oughtta be a law!"

[Horn]

Bitcoin has intrinsic value as a distributed peer-to-peer accounts ledger, which prevents double-spending of a mathematically limited number of full units, secured by cryptographic keys which will not be able to be broken by man or his computers for a long, long, long time. The keyspace is ridiculously huge... like many orders of magnitude more than the number of grains of sand on Earth.


lol at EE_ and Horn with their: "there oughtta be a law!"

keywords; as a


This value of money should be independent of any other object and contained in the money itself

Conclusion; Bitcoin is a utility device to tangibles, and should only be invested in as such. Same as a dollar. And as such currently supplying much need velocity to the dollar. Without a dollar Bitcoin would seize as it is whore to it.

Any promises of it being a future currency are the same as those in other baseless lack of (standard and tangibles) fiat. Our current tangible items from a dollar are oil & blood, Bitcoin empowers that current base and standard primarily. As you are always so eager to compare it to $. Tangible is not notional. Notional is utility. Blood and oil are burned and washed to the gutter.

The only law that should apply to a tangible monetary system is weights and measures, to wit Bitcoin fails to stack up in any reasonable comparison. Even if a monetary system was installed which it was issued by the people, a standard tangible gauge would need to be set in place so the folks knew when they were turning into E-flakes, as is exemplified in the quoted sirswayalot from above, his free market sailboat is the little dingy in the harbor that circles the buoy.

[sirgonzo420]

keywords; as a



Conclusion; Bitcoin is a utility device to tangibles, and should only be invested in as such. Same as a dollar. And as such currently supplying much need velocity to the dollar. Without a dollar Bitcoin would seize as it is whore to it.

Any promises of it being a future currency are the same as those in other baseless lack of (standard and tangibles) fiat. Our current tangible items from a dollar are oil & blood, Bitcoin empowers that current base and standard primarily. As you are always so eager to compare it to $. Tangible is not notional. Notional is utility.

The only law that should apply to a tangible monetary system is weights and measures, to wit Bitcoin fails to stack up in any reasonable comparison. Even if a monetary system was installed which it was issued by the people, a standard tangible gauge would need to be set in place so the folks knew when they were turning into E-flakes, as is exemplified in the quoted sirswayalot from above, his free market sailboat is the little dingy in the harbor that circles the buoy.

No, you cannot touch a bitcoin.

But you cannot touch a megabtye or a gigabyte either.... are they not "measures"?

Does Love exist, Horn? Is love worthless because you can't put it in a brown paper bag?


have you read the whitepaper (http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf) yet? No?

If 9 pages is too long, you can read this little snippet and perhaps you will come closer to understanding Bitcoin as a protocol and the idea behind it.

I have increased the fontsize somewhat to facilitate your reading. I do hope that you will read and enjoy it.


Bitcoin open source implementation of P2P currency



Posted by Satoshi Nakamoto (http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/profile/SatoshiNakamoto) on February 11, 2009 at 22:27
View Discussions (http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topic/listForContributor?user=0ye0gncqg772o)



I've developed a new open source P2P e-cash system called Bitcoin. It's completely decentralized, with no central server or trusted parties, because everything is based on crypto proof instead of trust. Give it a try, or take a look at the screenshots and design paper:

Download Bitcoin v0.1 at http://www.bitcoin.org

The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that's required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust. Banks must be trusted to hold our money and transfer it electronically, but they lend it out in waves of credit bubbles with barely a fraction in reserve. We have to trust them with our privacy, trust them not to let identity thieves drain our accounts. Their massive overhead costs make micropayments impossible.

A generation ago, multi-user time-sharing computer systems had a similar problem. Before strong encryption, users had to rely on password protection to secure their files, placing trust in the system administrator to keep their information private. Privacy could always be overridden by the admin based on his judgment call weighing the principle of privacy against other concerns, or at the behest of his superiors. Then strong encryption became available to the masses, and trust was no longer required. Data could be secured in a way that was physically impossible for others to access, no matter for what reason, no matter how good the excuse, no matter what.

It's time we had the same thing for money. With e-currency based on cryptographic proof, without the need to trust a third party middleman, money can be secure and transactions effortless.

One of the fundamental building blocks for such a system is digital signatures. A digital coin contains the public key of its owner. To transfer it, the owner signs the coin together with the public key of the next owner. Anyone can check the signatures to verify the chain of ownership. It works well to secure ownership, but leaves one big problem unsolved: double-spending. Any owner could try to re-spend an already spent coin by signing it again to another owner. The usual solution is for a trusted company with a central database to check for double-spending, but that just gets back to the trust model. In its central position, the company can override the users, and the fees needed to support the company make micropayments impractical.

Bitcoin's solution is to use a peer-to-peer network to check for double-spending. In a nutshell, the network works like a distributed timestamp server, stamping the first transaction to spend a coin. It takes advantage of the nature of information being easy to spread but hard to stifle. For details on how it works, see the design paper at http://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

The result is a distributed system with no single point of failure. Users hold the crypto keys to their own money and transact directly with each other, with the help of the P2P network to check for double-spending.

Satoshi Nakamoto
http://www.bitcoin.org





from http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-source

[mick silver]

what do i buy bitcoins with ?

[Ares]

what do i buy bitcoins with ?

Any currency you choose to do business with. Or you can trade labor for Bitcoin by providing a service. The options really are up to you.

[mick silver]

key word ............. currency

[Ares]

key word ............. currency

Yeah.... What you do you buy Chinese Yuan with? Euro's? Rubles? Rupee's? All take currency to purchase currency. It's what the FOREX was created for. You can also trade BTC on the FOREX as well.

[Horn]

No, you cannot touch a bitcoin.

But you cannot touch a megabtye or a gigabyte either.... are they not "measures"?

Does Love exist, Horn? Is love worthless because you can't put it in a brown paper bag?


have you read the whitepaper (http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf) yet? No?

5671

I told you before, i only accept certified copies of the "white paper" Law, notarized and directly from Satoshi himself.

[Horn]

The only partially notional and not tangible value of Bitcoin will be its end ledger and umaterrabyte blockchain.

as it will record those address who have so eagerly leapt so into the non-existent electronic world.

Bernanke will passover the list every night whilst retiring to his smoking lounge with blood red robe, and slippers.

Notice its Bit, not Byte

5672

[sirgonzo420]

5671

I told you before, i only accept certified copies of the "white paper" Law, notarized and directly from Satoshi himself.

I can probably find a copy of the whitepaper signed by his GPG key.



Your picture fits your post! I'm sorry if you feel like I'm the one grasping at straws... I'm just trying to help you understand a protocol that you don't currently seem to understand.

Kinda like if I was trying to get you to read a couple paragraphs about email and how it works..... and you keep saying that the cost of stamps for e-mail will keep going up and the whole e-mail idea and protocol is a big scam, and hell, you even heard that there are Nigerians stealing peoples moneys and hurting their computers with those damn e-mails.

[Horn]

Digitally signed, here we ago again... wasn't that the chosen method of half the existing refi-mortifygages in the U.S.?

Are we catching on, yet?

If you've been brainwashed by reading such slyly sinister samurai solicitations, Why would i want to be?

[mick silver]

in time anyone catch using bitcoin are other types of coin will be called a drug dealer , are one of those guys we keep fighting overseas

[sirgonzo420]

Digitally signed, here we ago again... wasn't that the chosen method of half the existing refi-mortifygages in the U.S.?

Are we catching on, yet?

If you've been brainwashed by reading such slyly sinister samurai solicitations, Why would i want to be?

Look Horn, I don't really have any say over whether or not Bitcoin will ultimately succeed or fail. It isn't up to me.

However, I have heard about Bitcoin, and I understand how it works. Because of that, I have some.

If bitcoin can keep my family from starving, then to me it is worth having some.

Just like I have gold and silver.

Just like I have guns and ammo.

Just like I have food and water.



Bitcoin is yet another hedge. There are people who swore that computers would never "take off", and later, those same sorts of people said the same thing about the Internet. Bitcoin is the Internet's Internet. It is the Internet's money. It is here whether you like it or not.

If you have your hands on those grubby, dirty, slimy, debt-laden, usury-powered FRNs (or whatever the current third world banana republic currency Costa Rica shoves off on its people), then you are no "true money" purist. You are no Palani, who touches not of the FRN.

If you are holding a worthless currency that is currently decreasing in value, why not hold some more 'worthless' currency that is currently increasing in value?

It's all nothing anyway, right? This "nothing" is lighter, yet if you felt so inclined, you could immediately convert it into much heavier things like gold and silver.

Bitcoin, for all the evils it has wrought in your mind, has made many peoples' stacks of precious metals considerably heavier.

:D

[sirgonzo420]

in time anyone catch using bitcoin are other types of coin will be called a drug dealer , are one of those guys we keep fighting overseas

Hell mick, you could get pulled over on the way to the store, and you might be accused of being a drug dealer if you have more than a couple hundred $$$ on you.

[Jewboo]

https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnfmz9ZMWj1qfrvjzo1_400.jpg
GSUSers have turned into jews.









:rolleyes: electronic moneychangers...lol.

[sirgonzo420]

https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnfmz9ZMWj1qfrvjzo1_400.jpg
GSUSers have turned into jews.









:rolleyes: electronic moneychangers...lol.




LOL there are many times more jews holding gold than bitcoin.

but you knew that.

thanks for playing!

;D

[Horn]

Bitcoin, for all the evils it has wrought in your mind, has made many peoples' stacks of precious metals considerably heavier.:D

Bitcoin is the anti-silver. A baseless intangible, not money.

Anyone caught promoting as such should want to see a world devoid of children by its lifespan. Its main mission is hook the world further into the expendable and disposable blood dollar, a world of worthless fiat-electronic nothingness.

Those seeking protection by it, are subplanting their homes and families next a veritable baby black hole. The highest form of pure evil that has ever crossed the face of our beautiful planet and physical world.

Yes its that bad, though Nixon would probably dig it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmNcngEnCSA

Let's see how your Senate sub-committee starts to accept it as donation material.

De-centralized my furry whiteass, what bunch a frootloops.

[EE_]

Bitcoin is the anti-silver. A baseless intangible, not money.

Anyone caught promoting as such should want to see a world devoid of children by its lifespan. Its main mission is hook the world further into the expendable and disposable blood dollar, a world of worthless fiat-electronic nothingness.

Those seeking protection by it, are subplanting their homes and families next a veritable baby black hole. The highest form of pure evil that has ever been created on the face of our beautiful planet and physical world.

Come-on man, cut bitcoin some slack. Bitcoin is a very credible currency...rising price says so! That, and you can take a million dollars over the border without anyone knowing.

[Horn]

Come-on man, cut bitcoin some slack. Bitcoin is a very credible currency...rising price says so! That, and you can take a million dollars over the border without anyone knowing.

Well we were all looking for that big payout bribe dough all those years so we'd shutup and not say anything more about the state of things.

There ya go a great big bowl of Gold 2.0 E-flakes, score!

Have a happy starvation.

[Shami-Amourae]

https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_lnfmz9ZMWj1qfrvjzo1_400.jpg
GSUSers have turned into jews.









:rolleyes: electronic moneychangers...lol.



Where's my virtual bagel, goy?

[sirgonzo420]

https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i.imgur.com/Tb3aF0F.png&fnr