10 ounce gold tungsten bar found in nyc

[chad]

pics are amazing, looks like the whole thing other than a thin layer was faked. damn.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/tungsten-filled-10-oz-gold-bar-found-middle-manhattans-jewelry-district (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/tungsten-filled-10-oz-gold-bar-found-middle-manhattans-jewelry-district)

It is one thing for tungsten-filled gold bars to appear in the UK (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/tungsten-filled-1-kilo-gold-bar-found-uk), or in Germany (http://www.zerohedge.com/article/german-prosieben-tv-channel-finds-500-gram-tungsten-bar-wcheraeus-gold-foundary-bank-origin): after all out of sight, and across the Atlantic, certainly must mean out of mind, and out of the safe. However, when a 10 ounce 999.9 gold bar bearing the stamp of the reputable Swiss Produits Artistiques Métaux Précieux (PAMP (http://www.pamp.com/), with owner MTP) and a serial number (serial #038892 (http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23038892), likely rehypothecated in at least 10 gold ETFs across the world but that's a different story), mysteriously emerges in the heart of the world's jewerly district located on 47th street in Manhattan, things get real quick. Moments ago, Myfoxny (http://www.myfoxny.com/story/19578206/fake-gold-bars-turn-up-in-manhattan)reported (http://www.myfoxny.com/story/19578206/fake-gold-bars-turn-up-in-manhattan)that a 10-ounce gold bar costing nearly $18,000 turned out to be a counterfeit. The discovery was made by the dealer Ibrahim Fadl, who bought the PAMP bar in question from a merchant who has sold him real gold before. "But he heard counterfeit gold bars were going around, so he drilled into several of his gold bars worth $100,000 and saw gray tungsten -- not gold. The bar was filled with tungsten, which weighs nearly the same as gold but costs just over a dollar an ounce."





What makes so devious is a real gold bar is purchased with the serial numbers and papers, then it is hollowed out, the gold is sold, the tungsten is put in, then the bar is closed up. That is a sophisticated operation.

MTB, the Swiss manufacturer of the gold bars, said customers should only buy from a reputable merchant. The problem, he admits, is Ibrahim Fadl is a very reputable merchant.

Raymond Nessim, CEO Manfra, Tordell & Brookes, said he has reported the situation to the FBI and Secret Service.

The Secret Service, which deals with counterfeits, said it is investigating.
And cue panic on the realization that virtually any gold bar in the world, not just those in Europe and Australia, which have already had close encounters with Tungsten substitutes, but also New York may be hollowed out and have a real worth of a few dollars max. Which, sadly, is fitting considering our main story from last night was the realization that an unknown amount of Chinese iron ore had either never existed or had simply vaporized, and was no longer serving as the secured collateral to various liabilities circulating in the electronic ether. After all, only the most naive out there could conceive of gold being sacrosanct when every other asset class is being diluted to infinity by a regime that has long since run out of money.
As for gold-based transactions on West 47th street: look for that market to grind to a halt at least for as long as it takes for this scandal to be forgotten too.
The only open question remaining will be how much of the gold located 90 feet below Libert 33 is in the same Tungstenized format. For what it's worth: it is unlikely we will ever find out.
This is what glaring gold counterfeiting looks like.

[iOWNme]

Damn thats incredible. They were taking real 10oz bars, hollowing them out to sell the gold, then refilling it with tungsten and then replated and recast with gold on the outer surface. Thats a pretty high tech operation. This isnt some low end 'street gang' type swindle here. This is some real mobsters inside crime ring.......Or the CIA/FBI, whichever you prefer.

[chad]

a friend of mine has some of those exact 10 ounce pamp bars, played with them numerous times. the one in the video looks exactly like my friends. sent him the video, expect to see him flip out tomorrow when he reads it.

[madfranks]

Here are the pics:

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/09/fake%20gold%201.jpg

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/09/fake%20gold%202.jpg

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/09/fake%20gold%203.jpg

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/09/fake%20gold%204.jpg

[StreetsOfGold]

Maybe now dealers will NEED to take (real) names and addresses of those selling to them.

[madfranks]

Upon examining the pictures, that bar looks like a cheap fake. Look at the picture of Fortuna on the front of the fake bar, how it looks like it was etched with a cheap engraving pen, then look at the obverse of a genuine 10 oz bar, with the full relief of Fortuna:

http://www.apmex.com/Resources/Catalog%20Images/Products/30945_Obv.jpg

[Dogman]

How did they get clued that it was fake? Edit: did not see franks post!

[mamboni]

Upon examining the pictures, that bar looks like a cheap fake. Look at the picture of Fortuna on the front of the fake bar, how it looks like it was etched with a cheap engraving pen, then look at the obverse of a genuine 10 oz bar, with the full relief of Fortuna:

http://www.apmex.com/Resources/Catalog%20Images/Products/30945_Obv.jpg

Yep, you're right - huge difference. I don't believe that a seasoned gold broker/dealer who has handled hundreds of these bars wouldn't spot such a poor fake instantly. I think this story is bogus, a planted story designed to undermine the physical gold market and scare off anyone thinking about buying gold.

[mamboni]

How did they get clued that it was fake? Edit: did not see franks post!

They didn't get clued in. The dealer spontaneously decided to drill into (destroy) ten bars each worth $18,000. Does this sound believable to you? It sure as shit doesn't sound legit to me.

[joboo]

http://www.the-partners.us/gold/pampz.jpg
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/09/fake%20gold%201.jpg
http://www.the-partners.us/gold/pampy.jpg http://i.imgur.com/spffw.jpg

The mouth and nose are messed up as well. It's got a big jew nostril! ;D (not to mention the open end of the basket is totally whacked)

This looks like a one off mediocre engraving job. A propaganda piece if you will. Brought to you by the same guys that did the Osama tapes.

[Uncle Salty]

They didn't get clued in. The dealer spontaneously decided to drill into (destroy) ten bars each worth $18,000. Does this sound believable to you? It sure as shit doesn't sound legit to me.

Agreed. This is a total set up to fuck with the price and perception of gold.

Silver FTW!! Ha ha ha.

[vacuum]

Upon examining the pictures, that bar looks like a cheap fake. Look at the picture of Fortuna on the front of the fake bar, how it looks like it was etched with a cheap engraving pen, then look at the obverse of a genuine 10 oz bar, with the full relief of Fortuna:


Makes sense, because when you think about it, it would be really difficult to place the tungsten in the real bar as claimed.

Tungsten melts at a much higher temperature than gold, so they'd have to split the bar in half and CNC out the material on both sides, and place a pre-cast piece of tungsten in the perfectly mated hole. Then, they'd have to somehow close up the seam around the piece. Not quite sure how that would be done, other than some specialized electrolysis to build up a very thick coat, then buff the sides until it was smooth. Also, it seems like gold would be kind of difficult to CNC since it's so malleable, but not sure.

[Serpo]

So it comes down too silver or tungsten,these idiots will drive more to silver

[MAGNES]

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2012/09/fake%20gold%204.jpg

One of the freakiest pics I have ever seen.

There is no way that bar was hollowed out and tungsten poured in, no way.

Someone plated that bar somehow, is that tungsten first of all ?
Who broke the tungsten corner, tungsten is a super metal used in armor piercing rounds.
Super hard. The corner is broken and the drill went into it. Tungsten is used for armor plate as well.

There was guy on gim that bragged about hollowing out 100 oz SI bars with a drill and pouring lead.

That was when SI was 14.00.

Last 10 Oz bar I owned was SI, and I got rid of all of them for Eagles and Maples.
Got rid of most of my generics as well, lost a bit, for the trade of same, that was years ago.
Only 10 Oz bar I ever wanted after that was Wall Street Mint but refused to pay premiums.

Dump your 10 Ozers and do what I did, if you own 100 oz, you nutz.

[Twisted Titan]

, The Swiss manufacturer of the gold bars, said customers should only buy from a reputable merchant. The problem, he admits, is Ibrahim Fadl is a very reputable merchant.



Thats the hook right there.......they want you to become suspicious of the scant few assets that can afford true protection.....it must be getti.g closer to miller time

[slowbell]

Thats the hook right there.......they want you to become suspicious of the scant few assets that can afford true protection.....it must be getti.g closer to miller time

Bingo. This is very telling. More stories like this occur, the more the picture becomes clear.

[gunDriller]

One of the freakiest pics I have ever seen.

There is no way that bar was hollowed out and tungsten poured in, no way.

Someone plated that bar somehow, is that tungsten first of all ?
Who broke the tungsten corner, tungsten is a super metal used in armor piercing rounds.
Super hard. The corner is broken and the drill went into it. Tungsten is used for armor plate as well.


there's also technologies like "cast in place" (tungsten insert placed into mold, molten gold injected around it).

[chad]

why is the fbi and secret service in on the investigation? i thought gold wasn't money.

[mamboni]

why is the fbi and secret service in on the investigation? i thought gold wasn't money.

Right, gold is a ....a.....tradition! Yeah, that's the ticket!!!! You see, from the Bernank's standpoint, if it's your gold, it's money. If it's their gold, is just a tradition, like a rabbit's foot.

[tater]

, The Swiss manufacturer of the gold bars, said customers should only buy from a reputable merchant. The problem, he admits, is Ibrahim Fadl is a very reputable merchant.



Thats the hook right there.......they want you to become suspicious of the scant few assets that can afford true protection.....it must be getti.g closer to miller time

Very reputable and honest too; In the video there's a big wooden cross next to the window. A Christian wouldn't lie to you...

[mamboni]

Very reputable and honest too; In the video there's a big wooden cross next to the window. A Christian wouldn't lie to you...

Yeah, that's the only crucifix you'll find in the entire New York City diamond district. What are the chances of that? LOL

[PatColo]

Agreed. This is a total set up to fuck with the price and perception of gold.

Silver FTW!! Ha ha ha.

I looked at the article at zerohedge, last sentence didn't make the OP,


All that said, with false flags rampant these days, we would not be surprised if this is merely yet another attempt to discredit gold, this time physical, as an undilutable medium of warehousing wealth. So buyer beware: in a time when everyone is broke, triple check before exchanging one store of wealth for another.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/tungsten-filled-10-oz-gold-bar-found-middle-manhattans-jewelry-district

[Neuro]

Very reputable and honest too; In the video there's a big wooden cross next to the window. A Christian wouldn't lie to you...
Is it made with real wood?

[mamboni]

Is it made with real wood?

Good Norwegian wood.

[Mouse]

I once had a girl, or should I say....she once had me

[Neuro]

Good Norwegian wood.
Very trustworthy then, probably a fisherman, and son of a carpenter, who decided to do good deeds to humanity, by becoming a money changer, very much like Jesus...

[big country]

They didn't get clued in. The dealer spontaneously decided to drill into (destroy) ten bars each worth $18,000. Does this sound believable to you? It sure as shit doesn't sound legit to me.

He isn't "destroying" the gold though, only the PAMP Suisse bar. That gold could still be sent to a refiner and you know he's got contacts (and probably volume too) so he's not getting reamed on the refining end. Say 98% spot? He'd lose $360 by drilling...assuming he sells at 100% spot for a perfect PAMP Suisse.

Also the article says he drilled into "several" bars...so I assume "several" = 3 or 4 so his curiosity cost him $1000 or so? That doesn't seem that far fetched to me for someone like that. Remember he's a bigtime NYC dealer, his monthly rent on just his shop probably costs more then those 3-4 bars were worth at full value.


That said, This story still seems fishy....I don't think the random drilling is the fishy part though.

[EE_]

Yeah, that's the only crucifix you'll find in the entire New York City diamond district. What are the chances of that? LOL

Excellent point!
Since the cross represents Jesus...this is akin to a white family moving into the middle of a black neighborhood...guess who's going to get robbed?
No self-respecting Khazar would display a cross or report they were robbed of their gold.
Sticking it to the Goy is how it's always done.

[tater]

Excellent point!
Since the cross represents Jesus...this is akin to a white family moving into the middle of a black neighborhood...guess who's going to get robbed?
No self-respecting Khazar would display a cross or report they were robbed of their gold.
Sticking it to the Goy is how it's always done.

EE, you make a good point and may very well be correct. However this guy is reputable, meaning he's more than likely been around and been in the business for sometime. I would hazard a guess that he's had dealings with "non Goy" before. Why would they "rob" him now? It may be that "they" would like to stick it a Goy but I have to wonder about the false flag aspect to scare folks away from gold...maybe it's a "killing 2 birds with 1 stone" kinda thing? There's more to the story I think...

[mamboni]

He isn't "destroying" the gold though, only the PAMP Suisse bar. That gold could still be sent to a refiner and you know he's got contacts (and probably volume too) so he's not getting reamed on the refining end. Say 98% spot? He'd lose $360 by drilling...assuming he sells at 100% spot for a perfect PAMP Suisse.

Also the article says he drilled into "several" bars...so I assume "several" = 3 or 4 so his curiosity cost him $1000 or so? That doesn't seem that far fetched to me for someone like that. Remember he's a bigtime NYC dealer, his monthly rent on just his shop probably costs more then those 3-4 bars were worth at full value.


That said, This story still seems fishy....I don't think the random drilling is the fishy part though.

Show of hands:

How many here have their trusty Makita drills out now and are cutting holes in your bars of gold looking for tungsten?

[chad]

truthfully, i was wigged out about my 100 ounce ag bars. got rid of all of them. and the dealer who bought them wasn't that stoked about them either.

[tater]

Show of hands:

How many here have their trusty Makita drills out now and are cutting holes in your bars of gold looking for tungsten?

What gold? Wish I could afford tungsten...

[madfranks]

I tried drilling my (1) grain gold bar to see what was inside and it disappeared.

[Neuro]

i tried drilling my (1) grain gold bar to see what was inside and it disappeared.
LOL! If you do an assay on it you'ld halve your holdings!

[gunDriller]

i saw the article somewhere this morning.

the fake bars cost some money to make - an ounce of gold (very rough estimate), + fabrication costs.

i think someone/ some group has set up a very dedicated counterfeiting/ manufacturing operation, for obvious reasons - their profit is about 8 x $1770 on every 10 ounce bar - $14K+.


there's a business opportunity here, non-destructive testing of 10 & 100 ounce silver bars & also gold bars for authenticity.

[Neuro]

What gold? Wish I could afford tungsten...
You can Scavenge Tungsten from lightbulbs...
If you could find any, that is!

Btw. Does anyone here believe they banned lightbulbs, to keep the price of Tungsten down?

[iOWNme]

They didn't get clued in. The dealer spontaneously decided to drill into (destroy) ten bars each worth $18,000. Does this sound believable to you? It sure as shit doesn't sound legit to me.

Why wouldnt you use Ultrasonic testing or other forms of verifying authenticity? REAL gold dealers have ways of testing without comprimising the gold. The fact that this guy 'says' he broke out a drill and started drilling is LAUGHABLE, just like Mamboni said....

I mean, if i came in his shop with a 10oz gold bar to sell it, would he bust out his drill and start drilling....? LOL

[Silver Rocket Bitches!]

Funny how these stories come out every time there's some momentum in the gold market.

[Blink]

Show of hands:

How many here have their trusty Makita drills out now and are cutting holes in your bars of gold looking for tungsten?


Screw the drill, cut and make yourself some fractionals.............. You'll get a higher premium when you sell.

[carpathian]

I know that dealer dude, bought and sold some during the years, he has that ultrasound or whatever scanner thing, you put any coin, bar or any piece of metal and on the screen it shows all the components . He didn't do it with bars , maybe from now all the metal will go trough that machine. And yes - he is a reputable dealer and a nice person. which is unusual in the jew-ellery district.

[carpathian]

Why wouldnt you use Ultrasonic testing or other forms of verifying authenticity? REAL gold dealers have ways of testing without comprimising the gold. The fact that this guy 'says' he broke out a drill and started drilling is LAUGHABLE, just like Mamboni said....

I mean, if i came in his shop with a 10oz gold bar to sell it, would he bust out his drill and start drilling....? LOL

he runs a refinery , you cannot destroy gold by drilling, if it is a gold you just melt it back together an sell to the big company with some minimal loss. i'm sure when he found that bar "suspicious" , he used that assaying apparatus first and drilling as the final solution

[joboo]

This is really a non issue. If you're buying gold 10oz's at a time, even less so.

For less than the price of one ounce, you can buy a portable ultrasound device on ebay ($900-$1300).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh0Mcagio5Q

According to a YT comment: "The speed of sound in Tungsten is ~5000 m/s whereas in Au it is ~3000 m/s (a significant difference)."

This would be noticeable on probably the cheapest of portable scanners.

Verified: http://www.rfcafe.com/references/general/velocity-sound-media.htm

[PlatinumBlonde]

Funny how these stories come out every time there's some momentum in the gold market.

Yeah, this story, the story about the dead guy with gold and 'conspiracy' books at his house and for some reason I feel the diamond crater in Russia interfaces with all this as well..

[gunDriller]

maybe they'll start using gold bars shaped like bells, to facilitate testing-by-sound.

just ring the bell.

if they're stack-able, it might work OK.

[JDRock]

i agree with mamboni here....btw, the REAL good fakes all come from the same middle eastern country.....i think the real good fakes are whats sitting in chinas and india and the usa's vaults.

[PatColo]

^ I always suspected that the "Nigerian 419 scams (http://www.ebolamonkeyman.com/)" actually originated from that same shitty little country.... with their long sordid history of PROJECTION (http://zioncrimefactory.com/2011/09/23/the-psychological-projections-of-organized-jewry/)... < ZCF's site appears to be having "technical difficulties" at this writing; I'm linking anyways in hopes he gets back online shortly.

[Neuro]

maybe they'll start using gold bars shaped like bells, to facilitate testing-by-sound.

just ring the bell.

if they're stack-able, it might work OK.
I think that is a fantastic idea, also for silver bullion!

[joboo]

"And on every street corner you'll hear....."


http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GvLgIzFLajo

[vacuum]

maybe they'll start using gold bars shaped like bells, to facilitate testing-by-sound.

just ring the bell.

if they're stack-able, it might work OK.

They could be made with dimensions such that they give a known tone, then a microphone could analyze it and give a confidence level. If it is the right material and right dimensions, it will have a known mass and known tone and a microphone and scale (and maybe ruler) could be used to verify it.