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Serpo
19th September 2012, 03:01 AM
'Proof' Jesus was married found on ancient papyrus that mentions how son of God spoke of his wife and Mary Magdalene

By Damien Gayle (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=&authornamef=Damien+Gayle)
PUBLISHED: 20:07 GMT, 18 September 2012 | UPDATED: 09:29 GMT, 19 September 2012






A recently uncovered fragment of ancient papyrus makes the explosive suggestion that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were man and wife, researchers say.
The 8cm by 4cm fragment supports an undercurrent in Christian thought that undermines centuries of Church dogma by suggesting the Christian Messiah was not celibate.

The centre of the fragment contains the bombshell phrase where Jesus, speaking to his disciples, says 'my wife', which researchers believe refers to Magdalene.
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http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/18/article-2205235-1515315D000005DC-152_634x408.jpg Explosive: The ancient papyrus that apparently proves that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene

In the text, Jesus appears to be defending her against some criticism, saying 'she will be my disciple'. Two lines later he then tells the disciples: 'I dwell with her.'
If genuine, the document casts doubt on a centuries old official representation of Magdalene as a repentant whore and overturns the Christian ideal of sexual abstinence.

It elaborates an ancient and persistent undercurrent in Christian thought that Jesus and Magdalene were in fact a couple, as picked up by Dan Brown in the plot of his best-selling thriller The Da Vinci Code.


The incomplete manuscript, written in the ancient Egyptian Coptic language, has been studied by Karen King, Hollis professor of divinity at Harvard University, the oldest endowed academic seat in the US.
Professor King was to present a paper on the discovery today at an international conference on Coptic studies in Rome after conducting extensive tests and research to establish the document's authenticity.
She toldSmithsonian Magazine (http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/The-Inside-Story-of-the-Controversial-New-Text-About-Jesus-170177076.html?c=y&story=fullstory&utm_source=buffer&buffer_share=386bf?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=socialmedia&utm_campaign=20120918&utm_content=theinsidestoryofacontroversialnewtexta boutjesus#)that the fragment casts doubt 'on the whole Catholic claim of a celibate priesthood based on Jesus’ celibacy.'
She added: 'What this shows is that there were early Christians for whom ... sexual union in marriage could be an imitation of God’s creativity and generativity and it could be spiritually proper and appropriate.'

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/18/article-2205235-1515316C000005DC-170_634x409.jpg Ancient: The back side, or verso, of the papyrus is so badly damaged that only a few key words - 'my mother' and 'three' - were decipherable

In a forthcoming paper in the Harvard Theological Review, Professor King speculates that this so-called 'Gospel of Jesus’s Wife' may have been tossed on the garbage 'because the ideas it contained flowed so strongly against the ascetic currents of the tides in which Christian practices and understandings of marriage and sexual intercourse were surging.'
'What this shows is that there were early Christians for whom... sexual union in marriage could be an imitation of God’s creativity and generativity and it could be spiritually proper and appropriate'


Karen King, Hollis professor of divinity at Harvard University

Professor King downplays the fragment's validity as a biographical document, saying that it was probably composed in Greek a century or so after the Crucifixion, then subsequently transcribed into Coptic.
Its significance instead lies in the possibility that an early Christian sect drew spiritual succour from portraying their prophet as having a wife.
This representation of Jesus as a man with earthly passions and needs has not survived in the doctrines of the established churches, which emphasise celibacy and asceticism as a spiritual ideal.
Professor King's interpretation of the text are based on the assumption that the fragment is genuine, a question that is by no means definitively settled.
A DIFFERENT GOSPEL: THE TEXT OF THE EXPLOSIVE FRAGMENT

The papyrus’ back side, or verso, is so badly damaged that only a few key words - 'my mother' and 'three'- were decipherable, but on the front side, or recto, King gleaned eight fragmentary lines:


not [to] me. My mother gave to me li[fe]...
The disciples said to Jesus,
deny. Mary is worthy of it
Jesus said to them, My wife
she will be able to be my disciple
Let wicked people swell up
As for me, I dwell with her in order to
an image



Because chemical tests of its ink have not yet been done, the papyrus could still be challenged on the basis of its authenticity, though independent experts have given their support based on other benchmarks.
To authenticate the papyrus, Professor King sent photos of it to AnneMarie Luijendijk, a professor at Princeton and an authority on Coptic papyri and sacred scriptures.

Professor Luijendijk forwarded the pictures to Roger Bagnall, a renowned papyrologist who directs the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World at New York University.

Known for his conservative assessments of the authenticity and date of ancient papyri, Professor Bagnall nevertheless confirmed that he believed the document was genuine.
The scribe's dialect and style of handwriting, and the colour and texture of the papyrus, helped them to date it to the second half of the fourth century AD and place its probable origin in upper Egypt.
The details of the fragment support another view of the life of Jesus that has begun to gain traction since the discovery of a cache of ancient manuscripts in Nag Hammadi, Upper Egypt, in 1945.

These manuscripts, including the gospel of Thomas, the gospel of Philip and the Secret Revelation of John, outline the so-called Gnostic version of Christianity which differs sharply from the official Church line.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/09/18/article-2205235-02D78F360000044D-855_634x748.jpg Christ Appearing to the Magdalen by Titian: A newly discovered ancient papyrus suggests the Messiah and Mary Magdalene were man and wife

WHAT IS GNOSTIC CHRISTIANITY?

Gnosticism is a modern scholarly term for a set of esoteric religious beliefs found among early Christian groups who believed the realisation of intuitive knowledge is the way to salvation.

In general, they believed that the material world was created not by God but via some intermediary being sometimes identified as Ahriman, Satan or Yahweh.

Jesus is identified by some Gnostics as an embodiment of the supreme being who became incarnate to bring gnōsis to the earth, according to Wikipedia.

Others deny that Jesus was God made flesh, claiming him merely to be a human who reached divinity through enlightenment and taught his disciples to do the same.

The movement spread in areas controlled by the Roman Empire and Arian Goths, and the Persian Empire; it continued to develop in the Mediterranean and Middle East before and during the 2nd and 3rd centuries.

Conversion to Islam and the Albigensian Crusade (1209–1229) greatly reduced the remaining number of Gnostics during the Middle Ages, though a few communities still exist.

Gnostic and pseudo-gnostic ideas became influential in some of the philosophies of various esoteric mystical movements of the late 19th and 20th centuries in Europe and North America.


Persecuted and often cut off from each other, ancient Christian communities had very different opinions on fundamental doctrines regarding Jesus' birth, life and death.
It was only with the establishment of Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire that the Emperor Constantine summoned 300 bishops to issue a definitive statement of Christian doctrine.

This so-called Nicene creed - named for Nicaea, the town where they met - affirmed a model of Christian belief that is to this day taken as orthodoxy.
The origins of this latest fragment are as yet unknown. Professor King received it from an anonymous collector who had found it among a job lot of ancient Greek and Coptic papyri.
Accompanying the fragment was an unsigned and undated handwritten note from a translator claiming it is the sole example of a text in which Jesus refers in direct speech to having a wife.
Professor King, who is able to read ancient Coptic, believes some of the phrases within the text echo passages in Luke, Matthew and the Gnostic gospels about the role of the family.

These parallels convinced her that this account of the life of Jesus was originally composed in the second century AD when such questions were a subject of intense theological debate.
Those who disagreed with the official line as established by the Council of Nicaea were in time branded by the Roman Church as heretics and their teachings suppressed.

VIDEO: Harvard Professor (http://www.hds.harvard.edu/) Karen King explains what is on the papyrus fragment

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2205235/Jesus-married-Proof-God-spoke-wife-Mary-Magdalene-ancient-papyrus.html

Glass
19th September 2012, 03:20 AM
It would be interesting to know more about the proffesor. She has a wiki. Wiki's don't say when created, only when last edited. Looks new. Not much info. And the Author wastes no time using slurs against the subjects. It almost kind of fits a formula, if you know what I mean. Do any of these players quack like a duck?

Neuro
19th September 2012, 04:27 AM
It would be interesting to know more about the proffesor. She has a wiki. Wiki's don't say when created, only when last edited. Looks new. Not much info. And the Author wastes no time using slurs against the subjects. It almost kind of fits a formula, if you know what I mean. Do any of these players quack like a duck?
First thing that struck me as well... What a coincidence that they found this parchment only 4x8 cm in size, but spelling out this revolutionary information, just a couple of years after Dan Brown, apologist for masons, popularized the idea among the unwashed masses... Age of disinformation, everything is up for revision apart from the holohoax!

freespirit
19th September 2012, 05:26 AM
What about the few visible words on the backside?
"my mother" & "three"
3 children, three husbands?
Stay tuned for details!! Lol

singular_me
19th September 2012, 06:29 AM
always pay attention to what minorities have to say.... the more a train of thought is widely accepted as a truth, the more it has to be questioned

ps: if Christ ever was married and it was found out that he never was crucified, it doesnt/shouldnt change the message of universal compassion. It is an absolute Truth and nothing can alter this Truth.

Neuro
19th September 2012, 06:48 AM
I just saw a video with Karen King on the telegraph site in the link. She could very well be from the tribe, in terms of appearance!

Ponce
19th September 2012, 07:51 AM
Soon they will find out hat Jesus and Maria Magdalena did move to Japan after he as supposed to be dead........

Good morning to one and all, first post of the day........lousy night last night puking all night and don't know why.

Shami-Amourae
19th September 2012, 08:31 AM
Remember this part, with Adam and Eve?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfA1Da8R2pU

madfranks
19th September 2012, 08:59 AM
I've read variations on this story before, something about the Greek/coptic word "Koinonios" (probably spelled that wrong), that sometimes is used to mean "friend" and is sometimes used to infer "spouse". Of course, they sensationalize it to mean whatever they want it to mean.

singular_me
19th September 2012, 05:26 PM
Persecuted and often cut off from each other, ancient Christian communities had very different opinions on fundamental doctrines regarding Jesus' birth, life and death.
It was only with the establishment of Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire that the Emperor Constantine summoned 300 bishops to issue a definitive statement of Christian doctrine.

These parallels convinced her that this account of the life of Jesus was originally composed in the second century AD when such questions were a subject of intense theological debate.
Those who disagreed with the official line as established by the Council of Nicaea were in time branded by the Roman Church as heretics and their teachings suppressed.

I am sure that all above this can be verified... however this doesnt bode well. A cartel comprising 300 bishops... politics as usual. Not saying that I believe the OP to be 100% true, but believing in the mainstream version doesnt sound right either.

chad
19th September 2012, 05:29 PM
"proof," huh?

freespirit
19th September 2012, 06:29 PM
"proof," huh?

some people have difficulty differentiating between "proof" and "evidence", lol

Sparky
19th September 2012, 07:23 PM
"proof," huh?

Well, he did put it in quotes.

Jazkal
20th September 2012, 10:31 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2205673/Jesus-Wife-papyrus-Proof-Jesus-married-declared-forgery-unconvincing-experts.html


Historical experts have poured cold water over claims that an ancient papyrus proves Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene, describing the fragment as 'suspicious' and 'a forgery'.
The antique attracted worldwide attention because of a bombshell phrase written in Egyptian Coptic that says Jesus refers to Magdalene as 'my wife' when speaking to his disciples.

singular_me
20th September 2012, 12:51 PM
sure, now it is going to go back and forth, each side of the fence accusing the other of lying. As long as the battle rages, TPTB are happy.

the way I see it is that Jesus was another MLK/ghandi/buddha of his time.... and the only way to control his success was to control this new raising faith...

I find odd The Bible has no record of what Jesus did after the age of 12 until 30... actually there are records, but those are considered as apocryphal or non canonical... why?

please note the number 12
12 apostles
12 tribes of Israel
12 month calendar

the number 30 or 3, the triangle... man ascending to God

freespirit
20th September 2012, 02:18 PM
I find odd The Bible has no record of what Jesus did after the age of 12 until 30...


here...;D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFGTXDxuaJ8

singular_me
20th September 2012, 03:46 PM
those missing years are not in the Bible, that was my point... :)

steyr_m
20th September 2012, 04:41 PM
Hmmmm, now lets see something that might cast doubt in Judaism [in the MSM].....

freespirit
20th September 2012, 05:52 PM
Hmmmmm, now lets see something that might cast doubt in Judaism [in the MSM].....


...yeah...good luck with that​ one...lol

Sparky
20th September 2012, 06:05 PM
...
I find odd The Bible has no record of what Jesus did after the age of 12 until 30... actually there are records, but those are considered as apocryphal or non canonical... why?
...

There's another gap between 1 until 12. Really, the New Testament focus is almost entirely on his ministry years. His birth is described because of its importance to Old Testament prophesy. And then there's the one reference from when he was 12, where I suppose the intent was to indicate his self awareness about who he was at an early age.

I think the more interesting gap in the bible is the few hundred years before Jesus was born.

7th trump
20th September 2012, 06:28 PM
There's another gap between 1 until 12. Really, the New Testament focus is almost entirely on his ministry years. His birth is described because of its importance to Old Testament prophesy. And then there's the one reference from when he was 12, where I suppose the intent was to indicate his self awareness about who he was at an early age.

I think the more interesting gap in the bible is the few hundred years before Jesus was born.
This is the smartest post on the subject yet.
The Bible is a set of books having a main purpose of projecting our Creator and His law for your salvation.
Look at it this way, you dont see in Ford vehicles a manual having chapters describing the life and times of Henry Ford do you.
Pull back a little bit and see the Bible for what it is!

steyr_m
20th September 2012, 07:03 PM
...yeah...good luck with that​ one...lol

Never gonna see it happen, don't want to go against their tribe....

Serpo
21st September 2012, 12:19 AM
Why wouldnt he marry he wasnt some freak like the clergy today,he was a complete human ,these people marry.

Celtic Rogue
21st September 2012, 04:12 AM
The catholic bishops feared losing control to Jesus's offspring (the holy grail) so they passed laws... labeled people heretics and destroyed all evidence that jesus was ever married and had a child. Hence the missing books and years of the man called Christ. I believe that they were afraid of the potential of the blood of Christ in the form of Jesus's child to sway Romes followers away from the elites control of the churches power. It is suggested that the child was a girl. All of this probably cant be proved... but it makes sense.

singular_me
21st September 2012, 04:51 AM
There's another gap between 1 until 12. Really, the New Testament focus is almost entirely on his ministry years. His birth is described because of its importance to Old Testament prophesy. And then there's the one reference from when he was 12, where I suppose the intent was to indicate his self awareness about who he was at an early age.

I think the more interesting gap in the bible is the few hundred years before Jesus was born.

right, between 1 and 12... those records are too apocryphal. 25 years or so ago, I read some apocryphal texts which tend to describe character flaws in Jesus. That he just was a kid/adolescent also experiencing ego related issues, in short that He was very human. Indeed, that could be dangerous if people could see/read this. Anything that is concealed for whatever reason will resurface eventually with vengeance, thats how the Universe works.

please elaborate on the 100 year gap... :)

ps: thanks to everyone in this thread for allowing an polite exchange of ideas. We may never change each other's beliefs, but it I really appreciate.

mick silver
21st September 2012, 07:38 AM
so did he have a kid by mary ?

Sparky
21st September 2012, 08:38 AM
Why wouldnt he marry he wasnt some freak like the clergy today,he was a complete human ,these people marry.

Theologically it's probably not important whether he married or not, as it doesn't really impact his role as messenger/savior.

Having said that, it's probably more thematically consistent that he didn't marry. He spent his ministry teaching his disciples to walk away from their worldly lives, and that he expected his message to create inter-family tensions. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians (after Jesus' death), he advised against marriage, arguing that it would tend to create a split allegiance between following Christ and keeping your spouse happy. But since he knew that it's difficult for people to not be with someone else, he made it clear that he wasn't prohibiting marriage in a doctrinal sense.

So it "makes more sense" that Jesus would not have married. Plus, when presumably would he have married? During his ministry? This doesn't make much sense. And presumably, he was only around another 40 days after resurrection.