Turkey attacks Syria!

[Neuro]

Just got the news! Artillery attack!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2212471/Turkey-launches-artillery-attacks-Syrian-targets-retaliation-civilians-killed-mortar-strike.html

[General of Darkness]

Just got the news! Artillery attack!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2212471/Turkey-launches-artillery-attacks-Syrian-targets-retaliation-civilians-killed-mortar-strike.html

Turks are the Mestizos/negros of the Middle East.

[mamboni]

This is how it starts. The belligerents form a large pile of kindling (i.e. armadas in the Straits of Hormuz) waiting patiently for a spark. The brush fire grows into a forest fire. Soon, no man can stop it.

[Neuro]

This was in response to a mortar attack from Syrian territory that killed five civilians (3children) close to the Syrian border. I am thinking false flag attack!

[JohnQPublic]

If you can't have a false flag, at least have a provocation.

[Neuro]

Here is more info together with a picture from Aleppo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9585515/Turkey-launches-retaliatory-attack-on-Syrian-targets.html

[madfranks]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02359/SYRIA_2359237b.jpg

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/OB-UV144_turksy_G_20121003104458.jpg

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/10/04/world/middleeast/04syriaspan/04syriaspan-popup.jpg

[DMac]

Here is more info together with a picture from Aleppo.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/9585515/Turkey-launches-retaliatory-attack-on-Syrian-targets.html

I've been following this the moment I caught the Syrian 'attack' over the wire.

Turkey invoked article/rule 4 of NATO, basically claiming Syria is posing an existential threat to them.

NATO condemned the Syrian action (which I think are abc's henchmen/rebels per the usual).

Ankara is going to be submitting a letter to the UN Security Counsel, it is being drafted right now, or was just completed.

Shit is getting real, fast.

[DMac]

This is how it starts. The belligerents form a large pile of kindling (i.e. armadas in the Straits of Hormuz) waiting patiently for a spark. The brush fire grows into a forest fire. Soon, no man can stop it.

The USN has 3 carrier groups within strike distance to Iran with the UK and France providing one more each. Brings the total to 5. I have a personal prediction that it will take 7 carrier groups in the persian gulf and red sea combined before the real fireworks go off. This includes the idea that 1 will be sacrificed.

[Neuro]

Clinton is trying to calm things down:

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE89215W20121003?irpc=932

NOT!

[Neuro]

I've been following this the moment I caught the Syrian 'attack' over the wire.

Turkey invoked article/rule 4 of NATO, basically claiming Syria is posing an existential threat to them.

NATO condemned the Syrian action (which I think are abc's henchmen/rebels per the usual).

Ankara is going to be submitting a letter to the UN Security Counsel, it is being drafted right now, or was just completed.

Shit is getting real, fast.
Should I stay or should I go?

[chad]

Should I stay or should I go?

i vote leave, while you can.

[Dogman]

Should I stay or should I go? It probably depends on where you live in relation to the fighting. If shells are not passing overhead, and you live away from the boarder, you probably will be safe. I have a feeling if Syria gets frisky against any other country the big game will be on and Syria will come out on the very short side.

[Neuro]

It probably depends on where you live in relation to the fighting. If shells are not passing overhead, and you live away from the boarder, you probably will be safe. I have a feeling if Syria gets frisky against any other country the big game will be on and Syria will come out on the very short side.
I think it is doubtful if Syrian regime is even responsible for the mortar attack. False flags have triggered wars before. I am in Istanbul far away from current action, but this brushfire is close to an ammunitions depot...

[DMac]

I think we all know Syria is the bait for ZATO to try for the bigger fish, Iran. Turkey is playing their role as actor, like the Dönmeh have for many years now.

Personally I would probably not live in Turkey, I am too white for that much sun ;) - only you can accurately gauge your safety level Neuro...I think most of the Northern Hemisphere is becoming a PIA to live in these days.

I am finding reports that Russia is evacuating personnel from Tartus. Nothing with substantial details yet..

[Dogman]

I think it is doubtful if Syrian regime is even responsible for the mortar attack. False flags have triggered wars before. I am in Istanbul far away from current action, but this brushfire is close to an ammunitions depot... Understand fully.

It could have been a false flag.

It seems there are a bunch of players that want the entire region to blow.
Some are known and others hidden.

Hell, there are some that may see this as a match to bring in the last days and start Armageddon.
And do anything that they can to get the ball rolling.

?

[Neuro]

I think we all know Syria is the bait for ZATO to try for the bigger fish, Iran. Turkey is playing their role as actor, like the Dönmeh have for many years now.

Personally I would probably not live in Turkey, I am too white for that much sun ;) - only you can accurately gauge your safety level Neuro...I think most of the Northern Hemisphere is becoming a PIA to live in these days.

I am finding reports that Russia is evacuating personnel from Tartus. Nothing with substantial details yet..
I'll wait and watch carefully the developments for now. I keep the car fueled up, so that we can leave at a moments notice, if this blows up. Zato and Russia's response is important now. Turkey gets its oil and gas from Russia and Iran.

[MAGNES]

Just got the news! Artillery attack!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2212471/Turkey-launches-artillery-attacks-Syrian-targets-retaliation-civilians-killed-mortar-strike.html

Turkey has been a staging ground for attacking Syria, this has been going on for months.

Why is Turkey, allied with Israel/USA/NATO/Saudis, trying to destabilize/destroy a " moderate " regime in Syria ?

[palani]

This is what a Turkey attack looks like

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Q3WIqGHpmU4/TvPBAwcJPMI/AAAAAAAAAcY/is6aXI3kPB0/s1600/TurkeyAttack3.jpg

http://edersbow.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/happened2melead.gif

[Neuro]

There is a good thread about this on Godlikeproductions. According to Zaman newspaper (Turkish). The army continues shelling Syria, and Syria is returning fire. Other rumors are that Iran has sent Revolutionary guard troops to Turkish border.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2006921/pg19?viewallpages=1

Turkish Parliament is going to sign a resolution tomorrow morning 9 hours from now authorizing cross border incursions

[chad]

well, then i belive it might be time for "neuro's 4 day vacation to sweden."

[Dogman]

well, then i believe it might be time for "neuro's 4 day vacation to Sweden." Especially if he is of "Draft" age, (if citizen) it would be a good time to have an extended vacation.

[Neuro]

Especially if he is of "Draft" age, (if citizen) it would be a good time to have an extended vacation.I am not Turkish, but that in itself may be a good enough reason to leave.

[Dogman]

I am not Turkish, but that in itself may be a good enough reason to leave. Are they inclined to be anti-western? If so keep both eyes and ears open and a packed bag by the door.

[slowbell]

Prayers sent for Neuro. God bless, and God speed. Now might be a good time to visit the Czech, and drink some beers.

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?63951-Beer-Paradise!

[Glass]

Absolutely nothing on the wires down here yet.

Be safe Neuro. Take no risks yeah?

[Neuro]

Are they inclined to be anti-western? If so keep both eyes and ears open and a packed bag by the door.
I haven't had any problems as long as I have lived here (5.5 years), but war and strife can do strange things to people. Most Turks I would say are not anti-western but they are fiercely nationalistic, and they have a deep feeling of not being accepted by the outside world. Further from the 1910's to the 1960's Turkey was essentially ethnically cleansed from sizable minorities of Greeks and Armenians. At this point I am not too concerned about the Turks though, more a sense that this may blow up to become WWIII, centered in the middle east. I think Sweden is a better choice in that likelihood! But I don't earn my living in Sweden I earn it here, but I have a house and some savings in Sweden so we could live fairly well there for a while, until I earn a living there.

[chad]

I haven't had any problems as long as I have lived here (5.5 years), but war and strife can do strange things to people. Most Turks I would say are not anti-western but they are fiercely nationalistic, and they have a deep feeling of not being accepted by the outside world. Further from the 1910's to the 1960's Turkey was essentially ethnically cleansed from sizable minorities of Greeks and Armenians. At this point I am not too concerned about the Turks though, more a sense that this may blow up to become WWIII, centered in the middle east. I think Sweden is a better choice in that likelihood! But I don't earn my living in Sweden I earn it here, but I have a house and some savings in Sweden so we could live fairly well there for a while, until I earn a living there.

plus, all of the hot chicks in sweden.

[Neuro]

I just saw Hillary Klinton. She said she was "regretful to the loss of Turkish lives"!!!

[vacuum]

I haven't had any problems as long as I have lived here (5.5 years), but war and strife can do strange things to people. Most Turks I would say are not anti-western but they are fiercely nationalistic, and they have a deep feeling of not being accepted by the outside world. Further from the 1910's to the 1960's Turkey was essentially ethnically cleansed from sizable minorities of Greeks and Armenians. At this point I am not too concerned about the Turks though, more a sense that this may blow up to become WWIII, centered in the middle east. I think Sweden is a better choice in that likelihood! But I don't earn my living in Sweden I earn it here, but I have a house and some savings in Sweden so we could live fairly well there for a while, until I earn a living there.

Does your salary in Turkey translate into a decent amount in Sweden? I always wondered about working abroad and if it was feasible income-wise.

[Neuro]

I don't earn a salary, but my earnings here is very good compared to what most Swedes earn!

[Horn]

Further from the 1910's to the 1960's Turkey was essentially ethnically cleansed from sizable minorities of Greeks and Armenians. At this point I am not too concerned about the Turks though,

Does it depend where your locale is? ie: in an area with foreigners within a city.

Or are you a needle in a haystack, that goes unnoticed?

[Neuro]

Ok some updates. Turkeys cabinet has signed a proposal to allow Turkish troops to invade Syria, which the Parliament will vote on 10 am Turkish time, 7 hours to go. Meanwhile at the Godlikeproductions link I posted above, it is said that US and French troops, on Crete, have been put on full war alert. The interesting thing as massive troops were moved there just a few days ago, at the time it was said for Libya, now it is clear what they were moved there for...

The zerohedge article:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2012-09-29/some-curious-us-and-french-military-deployments

USS Stennis is going to Persian gulf, is USS Enterprise still there?

[chad]

make sure you take godlikeproductions with a grain of salt, it is cia.

[vacuum]

Neuro, thanks for the updates.

[Neuro]

Does it depend where your locale is? ie: in an area with foreigners within a city.

Or are you a needle in a haystack, that goes unnoticed?
Sure, it would depend, Istanbul is huge. I don't think I could go unnoticed though, I don't look very Turkish... Anyho my worry at this time is not the Turks!

[Horn]

Sure, it would depend, Istanbul is huge. I don't think I could go unnoticed though, I don't look very Turkish... Anyho my worry at this time is not the Turks!

You might not go unnoticed, but I would say it is better to be only one of your kind than in a group of your kind.

Or Needles even noticed, go unnoticed.

I'm always concerned about the Turks here in Costa Rica.

[DMac]

Sure, it would depend, Istanbul is huge. I don't think I could go unnoticed though, I don't look very Turkish... Anyho my worry at this time is not the Turks!

Turks are an interesting breed. I've known several over the course of my life and each one became a pretty close friend. My experiences led me to think they are (like you said) very nationalistic, loyal and decent people. I know there is a lot of salt to take with that because I have never been there and have heard both ups and down about the people in Istanbul coming from White/Black American experiences. Whites tend to be respected, blacks not so much (also depending on neighborhood).

While I agree that you don't really have any life threatening issues to look out for on the whole, the part that you mentioned I find most disconcerting is how reliant the Turkish economy is on Russia. If Putin and Erdogan are at odds (they meet in a week or so, no?) things would get dicey for the lower class Turks economically.

[Errosion Of Accord]

Should I stay or should I go?

Tough question. As far as I can tell you like it there. How well do you blend and will you ultimately end up receiving blame for stupid American policy? I know little of your situation but have seen you state that you are over there in another thread. DO the ruskies get involved? If so they will be rolling through your town. When I was in the service I roomed with a guy who spent time at the AFB in Istanbul. He liked the locals and generally felt that they were friendly to Americans (I just Assume you are a U.S. citizen). Has that changed since the late 80s? A lot of things can happen at this point and the whole mid east is a shit storm. Be safe whatever you decide.

EDIT: Now that I see you are a Swede I suppose most of the post kind of somewhat applies.

[Neuro]

So this is from today's Zaman, the main opposition party calls it a declaration of war:


The Turkish Parliament is voting on a surprise motion that will allow the government necessary military retaliation against Syria after a mortar strike killed five Turkish civilians in Turkey's Akçakale district on the Syria border.

The meeting, which is currently under way, is closed to the press.
The motion says Turkey maintains the right to retaliate if necessary against Syria if the war-torn country's regime violates Turkey's sovereignty.
The main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP) said prior to the meeting in Parliament that it will vote against the motion saying it means a clear declaration of war against Syria.

[Dogman]

It is going to be interesting to see what Iran is going to do. Have gasoline, got a match?

[Neuro]

Ok I went and changed a bundle of Atatürk notes into Euro's. Thought it could be good to have if I want to travel through Europe in the close future. Probably more liquid than silver granule...

[Neuro]

It is going to be interesting to see what Iran is going to do. Have gasoline, got a match?
The armada in the straits of Hormuz makes sense now doesn't it? Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if they turned of the oil pipeline to Turkey...

[Dogman]

Ok I went and changed a bundle of Atatürk notes into Euro's. Thought it could be good to have if I want to travel through Europe in the close future. Probably more liquid than silver granule...
I think Euro's are more of a sure thing compared with physical silver. Seeing almost anyone will take euro's of the fly where physical metal would be more limited unless it was in coin or in a more widely recognized form.

You can take the states as an example, ask anyone (or most) on the street about a silver dollar, they look and understand "face" value. Just try and get spot price for the same from the man on the street.

It is not going to happen. I would think in a time critical situation, flat currency will be more liquid than metal.

IMHO!

[Dogman]

The armada in the straits of Hormuz makes sense now doesn't it? Anyway I wouldn't be surprised if they turned of the oil pipeline to Turkey...

I would think it would not be just Turkey, more like the entire world. There would be a very good chance the entire gulf of Hormuz would be shut down. If Iran got into the game. If Iran would be so stupid to get into this, I would almost bet the farm the entire region will erupt into war. If so gas rationing will become a way of life. I also would bet that price caps will be put into place on dam near everything, and shortages will become a way of life.

I would redouble any prepping and rat holing and stock up. The shit will hit the fan, in so many ways.

Nero do you think the Turks would use this conflict to go after the Kurd's again?

[Neuro]

Here is what the Russians say according to Reuters, they seem determined Syria is their line in the sand:

By Gabriela Baczynska
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia told NATO and world powers on Tuesday they should not seek ways to intervene in Syria's civil war or set up buffer zones between rebels and government forces.
Moscow further called for restraint between NATO-member Turkey and Syria, where violence along their shared border has strained relations between the former allies.
Tensions have flared since a mortar round fired from inside Syria struck the territory of Turkey. Ankara has threatened to respond if the strike were repeated.
When asked by Interfax if Moscow worried whether the tense border situation could prompt NATO to intervene to defend Turkey, its easternmost member, Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov warned against any such step.
"In our contacts with partners in NATO and in the region, we are calling on them not to seek pretexts for carrying out a military scenario or to introduce initiatives such as humanitarian corridors or buffer zones."
Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, one of Assad's most caustic critics, recently lashed out at Russia for blocking efforts at the U.N. Security Council to exert pressure on Assad and said Moscow's stance allowed massacres in Syria to continue.
Turkey has floated the idea of setting up "safe zones" inside Syria to protect civilians from the conflict but that would also have to be approved by the Security Council.
Russia and China have vetoed three Security Council resolutions condemning Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and have blocked attempts to impose further sanctions on his government or intervene more directly in the conflict.
Ankara has repeatedly complained of artillery and gunfire spilling over the border into Turkey, leading to threats of retaliation.
"We believe both Syrian and Turkish authorities should exercise maximum restraint in this situation, taking into account the rising number of radicals among the Syrian opposition who can intentionally provoke conflicts on the border," Gatilov was quoted as saying.
The West accuses Russia of supporting Assad in the bloody 18-month conflict and imposing a stalemate in the Security Council as violence in Syria has spiraled.
Moscow says Syrians themselves should decide their fate and says it will veto any Security Council resolution that could serve as a springboard for military intervention.
Russia accuses the West of overstepping its mandate when it set up a no-fly zone in Libya last year, leading to the fall of Muammar Gaddafi to a popular uprising and insurgency.
Western diplomats in Moscow say Russia seems to believe Assad may still successfully cling to power though they see Russia's dialogue with some Syrian opposition groups as an attempt to secure its interests there if he were overthrown.
(Editing by Thomas Grove and Mark Heinrich)

[Neuro]

I would think it would not be just Turkey, more like the entire world. There would be a very good chance the entire gulf of Hormuz would be shut down. If Iran got into the game. If Iran would be so stupid to get into this, I would almost bet the farm the entire region will erupt into war. If so gas rationing will become a way of life. I also would bet that price caps will be put into place on dam near everything, and shortages will become a way of life.

I would redouble any prepping and rat holing and stock up. The shit will hit the fan, in so many ways.

Nero do you think the Turks would use this conflict to go after the Kurd's again?
In terms of bashing Kurds no reason is too small or too big...

Anyway I have gotten a feeling that this episode isn't it, things will calm down, the Turkish population at large doesn't support war with Syria at this point, but with another false flag event who knows. Possibly a terror attack in Istanbul? Since this started I have been thinking of the bridges across the Bosphorus (connection between Asia and Europe), the second bridge was closed this summer for maintenance work... Really, I have nothing substantial to go on, just a feeling that something like this may occur... And the blame is on Iran-Syria!

[Neuro]

Here is what the Russians say according to Reuters, they seem determined Syria is their line in the sand:

By Gabriela Baczynska
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia told NATO and world powers on Tuesday they should not seek ways to intervene in Syria's civil war or set up buffer zones between rebels and government forces.
Moscow further called for restraint between NATO-member Turkey and Syria, where violence along their shared border has strained relations between the former allies.
Tensions have flared since a mortar round fired from inside Syria struck the territory of Turkey. Ankara has threatened to respond if the strike were repeated.
When asked by Interfax if Moscow worried whether the tense border situation could prompt NATO to intervene to defend Turkey, its easternmost member, Deputy Foreign Minister Gennady Gatilov warned against any such step.
"In our contacts with partners in NATO and in the region, we are calling on them not to seek pretexts for carrying out a military scenario or to introduce initiatives such as humanitarian corridors or buffer zones."
Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, one of Assad's most caustic critics, recently lashed out at Russia for blocking efforts at the U.N. Security Council to exert pressure on Assad and said Moscow's stance allowed massacres in Syria to continue.
Turkey has floated the idea of setting up "safe zones" inside Syria to protect civilians from the conflict but that would also have to be approved by the Security Council.
Russia and China have vetoed three Security Council resolutions condemning Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and have blocked attempts to impose further sanctions on his government or intervene more directly in the conflict.
Ankara has repeatedly complained of artillery and gunfire spilling over the border into Turkey, leading to threats of retaliation.
"We believe both Syrian and Turkish authorities should exercise maximum restraint in this situation, taking into account the rising number of radicals among the Syrian opposition who can intentionally provoke conflicts on the border," Gatilov was quoted as saying.
The West accuses Russia of supporting Assad in the bloody 18-month conflict and imposing a stalemate in the Security Council as violence in Syria has spiraled.
Moscow says Syrians themselves should decide their fate and says it will veto any Security Council resolution that could serve as a springboard for military intervention.
Russia accuses the West of overstepping its mandate when it set up a no-fly zone in Libya last year, leading to the fall of Muammar Gaddafi to a popular uprising and insurgency.
Western diplomats in Moscow say Russia seems to believe Assad may still successfully cling to power though they see Russia's dialogue with some Syrian opposition groups as an attempt to secure its interests there if he were overthrown.
(Editing by Thomas Grove and Mark Heinrich)


Ok I just saw this was written on Tuesday...

[Errosion Of Accord]

The New York Times itself, in its article titled, “Turkey Fires Artillery at Syrian Targets in Retaliation for Civilian Deaths (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/04/world/middleeast/syria.html?_r=1&smid=tw-share),” concedes that:

It was unknown whether the mortar shells were fired by Syrian government forces or rebels fighting to topple the government of President Bashar al-Assad. The Turkish response seemed to assume that the Syrian government was responsible.
Turkey’s immediate, unwarranted act of military aggression, along with knee-jerk condemnations from the US bear all the hallmarks of an orchestrated event – or at the very least an attempt to opportunistically seize upon an isolated incident to disingenuously advance the West’s collective geopolitical agenda.
Syria clearly has no interest in threatening the security of Turkey, nor any reason to attack Turkish territory which would surely give NATO the excuse it has been looking for to directly intervene on behalf of its faltering terrorist proxies.
Turkey Has Longed for a Pretext to Start War with Syria
It was previously reported that Turkey was intended by NATO, and more specifically, Wall Street and London, to lead efforts in carving out “safe havens” in Syria’s north, and to do so either under a false “humanitarian” or false “security” pretext.
This has been confirmed by Fortune 500-funded, US foreign-policy think-tank, Brookings Institution which has blueprinted designs for regime change in Libya (http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/03/libya-war-for-world-government.html) as well as both Syria (http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2012/03/unity-syrias-only-option.html) and Iran (http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/02/brookings-which-path-to-persia.html). In their report, “Assessing Options for Regime Change (http://www.scribd.com/doc/108893509/BrookingsSyria0315-Syria-Saban)” it is stated (emphasis added):

“An alternative is for diplomatic efforts to focus first on how to end the violence and how to gain humanitarian access, as is being done under Annan’s leadership. This may lead to the creation of safe-havens and humanitarian corridors, which would have to be backed by limited military power. This would, of course, fall short of U.S. goals for Syria and could preserve Asad in power. From that starting point, however, it is possible that a broad coalition with the appropriate international mandate could add further coercive action to its efforts.” -page 4, Assessing Options for Regime Change, Brookings Institution (http://www.scribd.com/doc/108893509/BrookingsSyria0315-Syria-Saban).

http://www.blacklistednews.com/Turkey_Attempts_to_Trigger_War_Vs._Syria_/21841/0/38/38/Y/M.html

[Errosion Of Accord]

An important shift is developing in Saudi Arabian currency derivatives markets as Iran becomes engulfed in populist protests (http://www.businessinsider.com/iran-currency-protests-2012-10) amid hyperinflationary pressures and armed conflict breaks out between Turkey and Syria, (http://www.businessinsider.com/turkey-says-its-been-hit-by-mortars-from-syria--and-its-getting-in-touch-with-nato-2012-10) heightening concerns about tensions in the Middle East. The 12-month forward rate on the Saudi Arabian riyal – or the difference between how many riyals traders think a dollar will be able to buy a year from now and how many riyals a dollar can buy today – has been hovering just above zero for the past two weeks.
In other words, as pointed out by BNP's Bartosz Pawlowski, traders are expecting the riyal to depreciate against the dollar. Or to think about it another way, people are betting that in a year, people expect that the dollar will be able to buy more riyals than that dollar is able to buy right now.

http://www.businessinsider.com/middle-east-tensions-and-the-sar-12m-forward-rate-2012-10

[mamboni]

Did Turkey Just Declare War On Syria?


http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/pictures/picture-5.jpg (http://gold-silver.us/users/tyler-durden)
Submitted by Tyler Durden (http://gold-silver.us/users/tyler-durden) on 10/04/2012 08:14 -0400



China (http://gold-silver.us/taxonomy_vtn/term/139)
national security (http://gold-silver.us/taxonomy_vtn/term/11981)
Turkey (http://gold-silver.us/taxonomy_vtn/term/10360)



Just out from the WSJ:


Turkey's parliament has approved a bill authorizing the military to conduct cross-border operations in Syria, a day after a deadly shelling from Syrian territory killed five civilians

So, just how is this different to war? And how does NATO, and specifically Article 5 feel about this? What about Russia and China?
More from the WSJ:




Turkey's parliament approved a measure proposed by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, giving the government broad powers to send soldiers into "foreign countries" after Turkish armed forces and Syria traded fire on Wednesday and Thursday.

The measure is valid for one year and allows Mr. Erdogan to deploy troops into Syria without consulting with the national assembly in Ankara. The measure was opposed by the main opposition Republican People's Party, which dubbed it a "war bill."

Opponents argue that the rules of engagement adopted after Syria downed a Turkish reconnaissance jet in June provide a broad enough mandate to thwart threats from President Bashar al-Assad's regime, which has been battling an uprising that started in March 2011 and is supported by Turkey.

"The negative impacts of the ongoing crisis in Syria on our national security is visible in an increasing fashion," Mr. Erdogan said in the bill he submitted to parliament. "The aggressive actions targeting our national lands are at the threshold of armed attacks.... For that reason, it has become necessary to take precaution to act in a timely and quick manner against additional risks and threats facing our country."

[Dogman]

Did Turkey Just Declare War On Syria?


http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/pictures/picture-5.jpg (http://gold-silver.us/users/tyler-durden)
Submitted by Tyler Durden (http://gold-silver.us/users/tyler-durden) on 10/04/2012 08:14 -0400



China (http://gold-silver.us/taxonomy_vtn/term/139)
national security (http://gold-silver.us/taxonomy_vtn/term/11981)
Turkey (http://gold-silver.us/taxonomy_vtn/term/10360)



Just out from the WSJ:


Turkey's parliament has approved a bill authorizing the military to conduct cross-border operations in Syria, a day after a deadly shelling from Syrian territory killed five civilians

So, just how is this different to war? And how does NATO, and specifically Article 5 feel about this? What about Russia and China?
More from the WSJ:




Turkey's parliament approved a measure proposed by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, giving the government broad powers to send soldiers into "foreign countries" after Turkish armed forces and Syria traded fire on Wednesday and Thursday.

The measure is valid for one year and allows Mr. Erdogan to deploy troops into Syria without consulting with the national assembly in Ankara. The measure was opposed by the main opposition Republican People's Party, which dubbed it a "war bill."

Opponents argue that the rules of engagement adopted after Syria downed a Turkish reconnaissance jet in June provide a broad enough mandate to thwart threats from President Bashar al-Assad's regime, which has been battling an uprising that started in March 2011 and is supported by Turkey.

"The negative impacts of the ongoing crisis in Syria on our national security is visible in an increasing fashion," Mr. Erdogan said in the bill he submitted to parliament. "The aggressive actions targeting our national lands are at the threshold of armed attacks.... For that reason, it has become necessary to take precaution to act in a timely and quick manner against additional risks and threats facing our country."




No matter what color they want to paint that horse, they did declare war on Syria.

[undgrd]

I'm not sure they just declared war on Syria. IMO, what they did do is install an express lane from the Mediterranean through Syria right to Iran's front door.

[DMac]

The Tyler that wrote this question should have done a little more digging - "And how does NATO, and specifically Article 5 feel about this? ". NATO can feel however they want but acting is much different than feeling.

Article 5 of NATO defaults to Article 51 of the UN Charter:


Article 51

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.

The underlined is critical. I read it as saying if you are under attack, defend freely, but once the UNSC is petitioned, follow the agreed upon rules. When Turkey decided to petition the UN Security Counsil, AND Syria has formally apologized to the UNSC this leaves NATO in a position to do nothing about this attack. It will go (in terms of hot war) without further punishment. The UNSC I think decided this attack will not be presented as hot war from Syria and if ZATO decides to go after Syria it will be outside their accepted rule of law.

I do believe this skirmish is over, for now.

[mamboni]

The Tyler that wrote this question should have done a little more digging - "And how does NATO, and specifically Article 5 feel about this? ". NATO can feel however they want but acting is much different than feeling.

Article 5 of NATO defaults to Article 51 of the UN Charter:



The underlined is critical. I read it as saying if you are under attack, defend freely, but once the UNSC is petitioned, follow the agreed upon rules. When Turkey decided to petition the UN Security Counsil, AND Syria has formally apologized to the UNSC this leaves NATO in a position to do nothing about this attack. It will go (in terms of hot war) without further punishment. The UNSC I think decided this attack will not be presented as hot war from Syria and if ZATO decides to go after Syria it will be outside their accepted rule of law.

I do believe this skirmish is over, for now.

If Turkey military actions across the border into Syria AFTER petitioning the UNSC, then either the latter gave them a green light or Turkey is defying the UNSC. Which is it?

[Neuro]

The Tyler that wrote this question should have done a little more digging - "And how does NATO, and specifically Article 5 feel about this? ". NATO can feel however they want but acting is much different than feeling.

Article 5 of NATO defaults to Article 51 of the UN Charter:



The underlined is critical. I read it as saying if you are under attack, defend freely, but once the UNSC is petitioned, follow the agreed upon rules. When Turkey decided to petition the UN Security Counsil, AND Syria has formally apologized to the UNSC this leaves NATO in a position to do nothing about this attack. It will go (in terms of hot war) without further punishment. The UNSC I think decided this attack will not be presented as hot war from Syria and if ZATO decides to go after Syria it will be outside their accepted rule of law.

I do believe this skirmish is over, for now.
I think so to, however what Turkey did is they gave the rebels/mossad an open invitation to start a war between Turkey and Syria. Lob in a few more grenades on Turkish territory, and Erdogan may decide on an invasion of Syria without having to consult the Parliament, without time to determine where the mortars came from...

[DMac]

If Turkey military actions across the border into Syria AFTER petitioning the UNSC, then either the latter gave them a green light or Turkey is defying the UNSC. Which is it?

I think it would be in defiance of the UN. Back in September the UNSC had statements about Syria and how no armed intervention would take place.

https://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2012/sc10775.doc.htm

https://www.un.org/News/Press/docs//2012/sc10775.doc.htm

[DMac]

I think so to, however what Turkey did is they gave the rebels/mossad an open invitation to start a war between Turkey and Syria. Lob in a few more grenades on Turkish territory, and Erdogan may decide on an invasion of Syria without having to consult the Parliament, without time to determine where the mortars came from...

Agreed. The deception portion of this series of events is certainly the most troubling.

[Neuro]

ANKARA, Turkey — Turkey's military chief vowed Wednesday to respond with more force to any further shelling from Syria, keeping up the pressure on its southern neighbor a day after NATO said it stood ready to defend Turkey.

Gen. Necdet Ozel was inspecting troops who have been put on alert along the 910-kilometer (566-mile) border with Syria after a week of cross-border artillery and mortar exchanges escalated tensions between the neighbors, sparking fears of a wider regional conflict. Turkey has reinforced the border with artillery guns and also deployed more fighter jets to an air base close to the border region since shelling from Syria killed five Turkish civilians last week.
"We responded and if (the shelling) continues, we will respond with more force," the private Dogan news agency quoted Ozel as saying during a visit to the town of Akcakale. He offered condolences to a man who lost his wife and three daughters to a Syrian shell.

Schools in Akcakale reopened Wednesday despite the tense situation. They had been closed due to security concerns.

On Tuesday, NATO chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen said the alliance was ready to defend Turkey, its strongest show of support to its ally since the firing began.

The solidarity is largely symbolic. NATO member Turkey has sought backing in case it is attacked, but despite publicly supporting Syria's rebels, Ankara isn't seeking direct intervention. And the alliance is thought to be reluctant to get involved militarily at a time when its main priority is the war in Afghanistan.

U.S. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said Wednesday that Washington has sent military troops to the Jordan-Syria border to help build a headquarters in Jordan and bolster that country's military capabilities in the event that violence escalates along its border with Syria.

The revelation raises the possibility of an escalation in the U.S. military involvement in the conflict, even as Washington pushes back on any suggestion of a direct intervention in Syria.

[Neuro]

The above article came from Huffington post. The most Interesting tidbit is that the US is building a military base on Jordan territory (of course without any intention to invade), further it mentions that Turkey indeed are treating wounded "Free Syrian Army" fighters (but of course they don't have any intention of war with Syria)...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/2012/10/10/turkey-syria-attack_n_1953846.html

[MAGNES]

they did declare war on Syria.

The Jews and Israel, ZOG declared war on Syria, the NeoCons, etc .

Seeing that you have such an interest in this thread when are you going to out them ?

I have always had an interest in this and always outed them, have a lot of related threads
and posts going back to the days of GIM as Magnes, this is a cookie cutter approach,
this is not new, this was done to Yugoslavia, to Serbs especially, same perpetrators,
same tactics, same media, same countries funding this, NeoCons run the Jihadists, etc

Turkey is not doing anything, Turkey is being used, and from what Neuro posted, news,
the Turks seem to know the score, Turks seem to be more aware of ZOG and methods,
far more aware than US peeps.

" Here is what the Russians say according to Reuters, they seem determined Syria
is their line in the sand "

I have posts making this case going back to Egypt and Libya problems.

Syria is not shooting back, the Russians are telling them what to do, if the
Syrians who have been attacked defend themselves, it will be all out, media
will only give one side, like Kosovo, the " western " MSM already has their
talking points, that is a guarantee.

Who benefits from all this ?

[Errosion Of Accord]

Probably doesn't need to be repeated to this crowd, but here's a a nice run down to what is happening and why it's happening. Long read but to much truth to throw away.

Are the Wars in the Middle East and North Africa Really About Oil? October 9, 2012 Print Version (http://blacklistednews.com/?news_id=21931&print=1)

Source: Ritholtz (http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2012/10/are-the-wars-in-the-middle-east-and-north-africa-really-about-oil/)
The Iraq war was really about oil, according to Alan Greenspan (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article2461214.ece), John McCain (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/05/02/974014.aspx), George W. Bush (http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/08/31/bush_gives_new_reason_for_iraq_war/), Sarah Palin (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/31/palin-iraq-is-a-war-for-oil/), a high-level National Security Council officer (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2008/07/did-cheney-and-the-oil-bigs-plan-the-iraq-war-before-911.html) and others (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/secret-memos-expose-link-between-oil-firms-and-invasion-of-iraq-2269610.html).
Dick Cheney made Iraqi’s oil fields a national security priority before 9/11 (http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2008/07/did-cheney-and-the-oil-bigs-plan-the-iraq-war-before-911.html).
The Sunday Herald reported (http://web.archive.org/web/20030402124132/http://www.sundayherald.com/28224):

Five months before September 11, the US advocated using force against Iraq … to secure control of its oil.
The Afghanistan war was planned before 9/11 (see this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1550366.stm) and this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4587368/)). According to French intelligence officers, the U.S. wanted to run an oil pipeline through Afghanistan to transport Central Asian oil more easily and cheaply. And so the U.S. told the Taliban shortly before 9/11 that they would either get “a carpet of gold or a carpet of bombs”, the former if they greenlighted the pipeline, the second if they didn’t. See this (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/08/ltm.05.html), this (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/18/opinion/a-new-oil-game-with-new-winners.html) and this (http://www.ipsnews.net/2001/11/politics-us-policy-towards-taliban-influenced-by-oil-authors/).
Congressman Ed Markey said (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/03/21/dem_congressman_were_in_libya_because_of_oil.html) :

Well, we’re in Libya because of oil.
Senator Graham agreed. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dylan-ratigan/how-did-our-oil-get-under_b_1028395.html)
And the U.S. and UK overthrew the democratically-elected leader of Iran because he announced that he would nationalize the oil industry (http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html) in that country.


http://www.blacklistednews.com/Are_the_Wars_in_the_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_R eally_About_Oil%3F/21931/0/38/38/Y/M.html (http://www.blacklistednews.com/Are_the_Wars_in_the_Middle_East_and_North_Africa_R eally_About_Oil%3F/21931/0/38/38/Y/M.html)

[Dogman]

Turkey says Syrian plane carried Russian munitions

By Nick Tattersall | Reuters

http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Iifp4FE9zL1qNyCcJNDj3g--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MjQ2O2NyPTE7Y3c9NDUwO2R4PTA7ZH k9MDtmaT11bGNyb3A7aD0yNDY7cT04NTt3PTQ1MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2012-10-11T131210Z_4_CDEE8991LZG00_RTROPTP_2_SYRIA-CRISIS-TURKEY-AIRSPACE.JPG


Reuters/Reuters - A Syrian passenger plane which was forced to land sits at Esenboga airport in Ankara October 10, 2012.
[/LIST]

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said on Thursday a Syrian passenger plane forced to land in Ankara was carrying Russian-made munitions destined for Syria's armed forces, ratcheting up tension with his country's war-torn neighbour.

Damascus said the plane had been carrying legitimate cargo and described Turkey's actions as an act of "air piracy", while Moscow accused Ankara of endangering the lives of Russian passengers when it intercepted the jet late on Wednesday.
The grounding of the plane was another sign of Ankara's growing assertiveness towards the crisis in Syria. Turkey's chief of staff warned on Wednesday the military would use greater force if Syrian shells continued to land in Turkey

"This was munitions from the Russian equivalent of our Mechanical and Chemical Industry Corporation being sent to the Syrian Defence Ministry," Erdogan told a news conference. A spokeswoman for Moscow's Vnukovo airport told state news agency Itar-Tass everything put on the plane had cleared customs and security checks and no prohibited items were on board.

Asked about Erdogan's statement, the Russian Foreign Ministry referred to her remarks and declined further comment. Russia's arms export agency said it had no cargo on the flight, and the Interfax news agency quoted a Russian diplomat as saying the cargo seized by Turkey was not of Russian origin. Syrian Arab Airlines chief Ghaida Abdulatif said in Damascus the plane had been carrying civilian electrical equipment.

Turkey has become one of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's harshest critics during a 19-month-old uprising that has killed some 30,000 people, providing sanctuary for rebel officers and pushing for a foreign-protected safe zone inside Syria. Russia has stood behind Assad and an arms industry source said Moscow had not stopped its weapons exports to Damascus. Military jets escorted the Airbus A-320, carrying around 30 passengers, into Ankara airport after Turkey received an intelligence tip-off. The Turkish foreign ministry said the plane had been given a chance to turn back towards Russia while still over the Black Sea, but the pilot chose not to do so.

"This hostile and deplorable Turkish act is an additional indication of the hostile policy of Erdogan's government," Syria's foreign ministry said in a statement, accusing Ankara of "harbouring terrorists" and allowing them to infiltrate Syria. The Syrian conflict threatens to suck in neighboring states and exposes the deep Sunni-Shi'ite rift in the Middle East. Two Sunni Islamist rebel groups said late on Thursday they had detonated bombs in a state security compound in central Damascus. Lebanon's Shi'ite Hezbollah group - which, like Syria's rulers, is allied with Shi'ite Iran - meanwhile denied sending fighters to aid Assad.

Russian President Vladimir Putin had been expected to visit Turkey at the start of next week but Turkish officials said hours before the plane was grounded that Russia had requested the visit be postponed, citing his heavy work schedule.

"BRUTAL MASSACRES"

Turkey said it would stop more Syrian civilian aircraft using its airspace if necessary and instructed Turkish passenger planes to avoid Syrian airspace, saying it was no longer safe. "We are determined to control weapons transfers to a regime that carries out such brutal massacres against civilians. It is unacceptable that such a transfer is made using our airspace," Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said.
Turkey has boosted its troop presence along the 900-km (560-mile) border and returned fire in response to shelling from northern Syria, where Assad's forces have been battling rebels.

Chief of Staff General Necdet Ozel said on Wednesday his troops would respond "with greater force" if Syrian shelling continued and parliament last week authorised the deployment of troops outside Turkish territory. Such approval has in the past been used for strikes against Kurdish militant bases in northern Iraq. In 2008 Turkey sent 10,000 troops backed by air power over the border. Some 25 fighter planes were sent to a military base in the southern city of Diyarbakir, around 100 km from the Syrian border, on Monday, the Dogan news agency said.

Syrian refugees fleeing across a river into Turkey spoke of chaos as Syrian government forces battled rebels for control of the area around their home town of Azmarin on Thursday. Loudspeakers in Azmarin, audible from Hacipasa on the Turkish side, called on rebel fighters to give up. "Give up your weapons. Come and surrender. We are coming with tanks and planes," they said between bursts of mortar fire.

(Snip)

More at link.

http://news.yahoo.com/turkey-briefly-detains-syrian-plane-tension-heightens-000603998.html

[Neuro]

And Turkey says they don't want war...

Shooting Artillery grenades, giving shelter, weapons and hospital care to rebels, many of them mercenaries from Libya, scrambling jets, stopping Syrian civilian aircrafts. All this would pretty much amount to a defacto war with Syria...

[Neuro]

The latest developments:
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/10/13/243546.html

Turkey will retaliate without hesitation if its border with Syria is violated again, Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said on Saturday.
Turkey's armed forces have repeatedly responded in kind over the past few weeks to gunfire and shelling spilling across the border from Syria and have warned of a more forceful response if the violence is not contained.

Meanwhile, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan called Saturday for reform to the U.N. Security Council to allow progress to resolve the Syria crisis which has been held up by veto powers Russia and China.

“If we must wait for one or two permanent members, then Syria’s fate is really in great danger,” Erdogan told a conference in Istanbul.

Moscow and Beijing, as two of the five permanent members of the Security Council, have so far blocked three draft resolutions backed by Western and Arab countries, accusing them of interference in Syrian affairs.

“It’s time to change the structure of international institutions, starting with the UN Security Council,” Erdogan said, calling for “wider, fairer and more effective representation.”

“By failing to implement an effective policy towards events in Syria, the Security Council is rapidly losing its legitimacy in the eyes of the oppressed elsewhere in the world,” he charged.

He said reform of the council should take into account the growing strength of countries including Turkey, Brazil, India and Indonesia, adding: “The West is no longer the only centre of the world.”

Erdogan spoke as international peace envoy Lakhdar Brahimi and German Foreign Minister Guido Westerwelle were in Istanbul for talks with Turkish leaders on the Syrian conflict.

Tensions soared between Damascus and Ankara after Turkish authorities forced a Syrian passenger plane flying from Moscow to land in Turkey and confiscated what Erdogan said was an illegal consignment of munitions.



With rebel fighters in control of large swathes of Syria’s border area, there have been a series of incidents of cross-border fire this month that have sparked retaliatory shelling by NATO member Turkey and heightened U.N. concern about the potential for escalation.

[Horn]

Tensions soared between Damascus and Ankara after Turkish authorities forced a Syrian passenger plane flying from Moscow to land in Turkey and confiscated what Erdogan said was an illegal consignment of munitions.


Pretty obvious now the attitude towards Russia...

I would think Turkey could stand to gain more of a power position by falling in with Russia and China.

Guss they're too close for comfort to Izzy.