Religion vs. Spirituality

[Gaillo]

Greets!

I am not a religious person, although I consider myself to be DEEPLY spiritual. I do not believe in God, unless you define God in a neutered form that does not include the usual "creator of nature", "outside of nature", or "benevolent, personal savior" features typically associated with theistic belief systems.

In my opinion, ALL religions (organized theistic belief systems) and pretty much ALL scripture that claims to be the "word of God" or "commandments of God" are nothing more than spiritual truths that have been co-opted, systematically distorted and mythologized, written down, and CORRUPTED to the end of CONTROLLING men and their minds.

I do not need a church, scriptures, religious "leaders", or a self-applied "label" to identify which "faction" of religious thought I belong to in order to find what is true and holy. All I need to do is look around and EXPERIENCE this awesome universe, breath, think, and BE.

Thoughts?

[sunshine05]

That about sums up my thoughts too on all of it.

[LuckyStrike]

Greets!

I am not a religious person, although I consider myself to be DEEPLY spiritual. I do not believe in God, unless you define God in a neutered form that does not include the usual "creator of nature", "outside of nature", or "benevolent, personal savior" features typically associated with theistic belief systems.

In my opinion, ALL religions (organized theistic belief systems) and pretty much ALL scripture that claims to be the "word of God" or "commandments of God" are nothing more than spiritual truths that have been co-opted, systematically distorted and mythologized, written down, and CORRUPTED to the end of CONTROLLING men and their minds.

I do not need a church, scriptures, religious "leaders", or a self-applied "label" to identify which "faction" of religious thought I belong to in order to find what is true and holy. All I need to do is look around and EXPERIENCE this awesome universe, breath, think, and BE.

Thoughts?

I am not religious either, and have not regularly attended church in years, however I am spiritual. I think the battle we fight is a spiritual battle fought on a physical plane. When I say I believe the Bible many people throw the inconsistencies and impossible things (Noahs flood) at me, but the problem is not the Bible the problem is how these people have been TAUGHT what the Bible says. The Bible wasn't written in English, so most people are relying on someones translation of events which can very often and very drastically distort the meaning. Two glaring examples are the fact that YHWH (God's name) was removed from the Bible and replaced with LORD (because this supposedly offends jews) and also the teaching that Gentile means non-jew when Gentile (usually) is translated from the word ethnos, which means race, tribe, or nation. And the word Jew which (usually) is the word Judea and described a geographic region on it's inhabitants, but not specifically a particular ground of inhabitants.

Dinners ready so gotta cut it short :)

[Sparky]

You've described all the things that your spirituality isn't, Gaillo. So then what is it? It can't just be the universe, breathing, thinking, and being, because even though those things are wondrous, they are all physical in nature, which by definition is the opposite of spiritual. Where's your spirituality? What's the force behind it? Is there some kind of non-physical connectivity? And the spiritual truths that have been co-opted...what did they used to be? Is your spirituality akin to that of early Native Americans?

[Gaillo]

You've described all the things that your spirituality isn't, Gaillo. So then what is it? It can't just be the universe, breathing, thinking, and being, because even though those things are wondrous, they are all physical in nature, which by definition is the opposite of spiritual. Where's your spirituality? What's the force behind it? Is there some kind of non-physical connectivity? And the spiritual truths that have been co-opted...what did they used to be? Is your spirituality akin to that of early Native Americans?

I'll happily answer this.

What I believe in is an infinite, eternal universe that has always been here, and always will be. It requires no "creator", as it has always existed. My "spirituality" is based on my nature as a being, and my interconnectedness with the whole of that universe. Since when is "physical in nature" the opposite of spiritual? Only theistic religions teach that matter is somehow "inferior" or debased and impure... I see matter and energy as ever changing manifestations of the underlying forces of nature... the "clothing" of gravity, time, motion, etc. The physical universe is holy and awesome to me, as it is the sum total of existence and "creator" of complex forms in my world view.

As for the usual idea of "spirit" being some kind of soul that leaves you and goes somewhere else when you die, I do NOT subscribe to that fairy-tale notion. The reality of it is so much more awesome and beautiful to me... I am an experiential being who is conscious because of the magnificently complex chemical processes going on in my head, and when I die, those processes will cease and I will no longer be conscious. Of course, I will NOT BE conscious of this lack of consciousness, so ALL I WILL EVER KNOW AND EXPERIENCE is life. For all practical (subjective) purposes, I already have eternal life... a bauble that religions try to dangle in front of us like a carrot that has to be earned... hah! ;D

The universe is all alive, alive with forms and energy... and I am a part of it. I can appreciate it and be grateful for it, all the while being connected to it. That is the spirit/essence I'm talking about, and the root of what I call spirituality. I don't know if this is the same kind of spirituality that most of the Native Americans had, but I suspect it is somewhat similar.

[LuckyStrike]

I'll happily answer this.

What I believe in is an infinite, eternal universe that has always been here, and always will be. It requires no "creator", as it has always existed. My "spirituality" is based on my nature as a being, and my interconnectedness with the whole of that universe. Since when is "physical in nature" the opposite of spiritual? Only theistic religions teach that matter is somehow "inferior" or debased and impure...




First off, saying that something comes from nothing does not hold up to logical scrutiny.

Secondly, Christianity does not teach that matter is debased or impure, but rather that he created Adam (White race) in his image, the definition of pure. "judeo Christianity" may teach that your body is some impure thing which can't stop sinning (however they choose to define sin, idk)


What you are ultimately saying as far as I can tell is that your senses are your spirituality, say what you wish, but your experiences be that mental, physical and emotional is your highest plane. Logically I can only deduce that hedonism is your way of life, if it feels good do it, live for the moment, this is why you exist. This is where most people are (in my experience) that they live for the next time they can get drunk, or hook up with a woman which leads to an existence no different than a dog. Very unfortunate.

[Gaillo]

Luckystrike,

I do not say that something comes from nothing... but rather something IS, and always WAS. My view of the universe is that it is ETERNAL, and didn't "come from" anywhere... it didn't need to! This idea is kind of hard for people to grasp, because we are finite beings with a beginning, an existence, and an end. Because of this, we EXPECT everything around us to ALSO have a beginning... when in fact, it doesn't necessarily need to have the same qualities as our finite existence. Many theologians ask the question "why should there be something, instead of nothing?" as if nothing is the expected state of things (without God to "make stuff" in the nothingness...). I ask a different question: "Why should there be nothing, when OBVIOUSLY there IS something?" - I do not accept or expect or view "nothing" as an option, with or without a divine being... I only see what IS, and I see no evidence that it ever WASN'T.

As for your second point, I have to disagree, Christianity VERY DEFINITELY teaches that matter and things of the flesh are inferior... inferior to God and the realm (heaven) that he supposedly resides in.

Finally, as for my spirituality being my senses, I COMPLETELY reject and disagree with that premise. The senses are only part of the whole being that is a man, and only part of man's connection to his universe. While it is true that my senses are a primary tool for interaction with this universe, there is also a rich "inner" world (the mind) that is FAR more important to my concept of "spirit" and my essence/nature as a being.


Logically I can only deduce that hedonism is your way of life, if it feels good do it, live for the moment, this is why you exist. This is where most people are (in my experience) that they live for the next time they can get drunk, or hook up with a woman which leads to an existence no different than a dog. Very unfortunate.

How very sad that you would make such a prejudiced and unfounded assumption. I have had VERY few women in my life, mostly because I'm not looking for or interested in one night stands or quick sex. I have been with the same woman for almost 12 years now, and the woman before that I was married to for 10 years after knowing her an additional 3 years before marriage. I've done my share of drinking this lifetime, mostly during the last 10 years as self-medication for the heartbreak of losing my wife. I haven't had a drop of alcohol in 3 months, and probably never will again this lifetime. I spend most of my time reading, working, spending time outdoors, gardening, and preparing for the collapse of this civilization, I do not waste time partying or looking for thrills. I do not do drugs, extreme sports, or vacations, and I never set foot in bars, concert halls, sports arenas, or strip clubs.

That's quite the hedonistic existence I live, yes? ::)

[LuckyStrike]

How very sad that you would make such a prejudiced and unfounded assumption. I have had VERY few women in my life, mostly because I'm not looking for or interested in one night stands or quick sex. I have been with the same woman for almost 12 years now, and the woman before that I was married to for 10 years after knowing her an additional 3 years before marriage. I've done my share of drinking this lifetime, mostly during the last 10 years as self-medication for the heartbreak of losing my wife. I haven't had a drop of alcohol in 3 months, and probably never will again this lifetime. I spend most of my time reading, working, spending time outdoors, gardening, and preparing for the collapse of this civilization, I do not waste time partying or looking for thrills. Quite the hedonistic existence I live, yes? ::)

I was not insinuating that the two examples I gave were your way of self gratification, but that of those who serve themselves in my experience, but a lot of that has to do with my age too (most of my friends are not married)

As for our discussions on deeper things, I don't think we are speaking the same language and to be honest I think we would just talk past each other, and at 1:34am I'm about ready to hit the sack.

[Sparky]

Gaillo, I think of spirituality as that which isn't constrained by the physical world, which is why I refer to them as "opposites". But they can still be connected.

How do you feel connected to the universe, other than that you are a component of it? Do you think there's some kind of organized energy? In what sense would it be considered holy, apart from some connection to a creator or deity? Holy generally means exalted or divine. It's certainly awesome and wondrous.

Is it the human intervention of deity (e.g. the hypocrisy, control, manipulation, etc. of formal religious institutions) that makes you reject deity itself? Are you not able to simply reject the human distortion of it? Just curious. So many people have been hurt by the pitfalls of institutional "religion" that it's a shame. "Religious" is now a loaded word. I'm Christian, and I think Jesus wasn't religious. I see him as the greatest contrarian of all time. Christianity is one of the "religions" that has been distorted and misrepresented (or co-opted, as you say), and although that is bothersome to me as well, I don't think it changes the underlying truth.

[Gaillo]

Gaillo, I think of spirituality as that which isn't constrained by the physical world, which is why I refer to them as "opposites". But they can still be connected.

How do you feel connected to the universe, other than that you are a component of it?

That's about it... that and appreciative gratefulness.


Do you think there's some kind of organized energy? In what sense would it be considered holy, apart from some connection to a creator or deity? Holy generally means exalted or divine. It's certainly awesome and wondrous.

Organizing energy? To "organize" something implies that there is a purpose toward which something is working or building. I see the universe as mostly chaotic, with pockets of complexity and what we would call order (because it suits OUR needs and purposes) here and there... but overall, no - I do not see any evidence of a "grand plan" or "intended goal" of existence. As for the "holy" part of it, the "exalted" aspect of the universe is that it is eternal and infinite... SO much more than the individual little pieces of it like you and me. The complex interconnected aspect of it all is also awesome and holy to me.


Is it the human intervention of deity (e.g. the hypocrisy, control, manipulation, etc. of formal religious institutions) that makes you reject deity itself? Are you not able to simply reject the human distortion of it?

No, I reject Deity based on the illogic of the proposition, and lack of evidence to support the concept of a creator "God".


Christianity is one of the "religions" that has been distorted and misrepresented (or co-opted, as you say), and although that is bothersome to me as well, I don't think it changes the underlying truth.

You and I see "truth" differently... I do not view ANY religion that posits the existence of a creator "God" as truth, but rather as a highly suspect creation of men, typically with the aim of control in mind, which must be PROVEN (through the presentation of hard evidence) before it can be labeled/accepted as truth.

[Old Herb Lady]

To be in total awe of the universe and all of its vast beauty and magnificence and to feel a part of it is a breathtaking experience.
To breathe in and to know & feel that you're a part of it is just amazing and should make anyone-everyone-thankful & very appreciative of their life & the universe
and all the powerful energy surrounding them. It's just extraordinary to spend time in nature & with your loved ones & to feel the beauty of life.

That's all sooooo awesome, but that's still just surface stuff to me. No matter how far & deep you go into it.

God's love is a million times deeper & more spiritual than all of that. His grace & love is like no other.
If you think of someone that you love more than anyone else in the world---His love for you, for us, is a million times more.
It's like turning the volume up from one notch to the tenth notch, but the louder it gets, the more peace, grace & happiness fulfills your heart & soul.
Your whole being vibrates with joy and bliss, but not overwhelming...calming & tranquil & inspiring & soothing to your soul .

I actually tried to be an atheist before. It was so depressing. Lasted about 10 hours, I think.
It was like taking the love that I was used to receiving from God and downgrading it to my first paragraph.
Once you feel His love, you can't live without it & then you have a relationship that is beyond words and indescribable.
I had to mentally, emotionally, physically, spiritually, consciously BLOCK HIM OUT. Just awful, really.
I was mad at Him & mad at the world for all that I had lost. I pretty much felt like I lost everything & didn't
need His love & grace to carry me & figured he had just abandoned me & left me to suffer & didn't care....
...thought I could do it on my own with the "universe" as my "whatever ".
That was THE biggest mistake I've ever made/thought/had in my life. I shiver at my very state of mind during that time.

I got back into reality real quick & will NEVER, EVER abandon Him again & I know He is with me & loves me
and his grace will get me through anything, even tho I can be a stubborn, ornery, sinner, am still a faithful follower forever.


Faith is the ability to believe in the things we do not see.

Ask Him to come into your life & have just a tiny bit of faith & see what happens. A person will never be the same.
No church needed, just your open heart to receive his Love. There is nothing better in the universe and your
love and light in your soul will shine outward like never before.

That's my spirituality.

[Gaillo]

OHL...
Moved your Christian evangelical photo/song posts to your own thread:

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?64101-OHL-s-Tribute-to-Christ

I'll do the same to anyone else who wants to "Christ up" this thread. This is a thread about Spirituality vs. Religion, not a thread to extol and glorify your own version of theism. There are plenty of other threads in this sub-forum for that.

[Horn]

Typically when someone puts "vs." in the thread title it symbolizes a competitive notion.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTfOB_TBBew

[Sparky]

...photos of nordic whitebread Christ...

LOL. I share OHL's faith, but pictures of Jesus with bright blue eyes do seem comical. Unfortunately they make Gaillo's point about religious distortion. (Oops, maybe this post belongs back in the religion/spirituality thread...)

[Gaillo]

Typically when someone puts "vs." in the thread title it symbolizes a competitive notion.

True, but in some cases "vs." is used as I intended, as a starting point for comparative (as well as antagonistic) discussion.

P.S. Your post, and this reply moved to the correct thread.

[Gaillo]

LOL. I share OHL's faith, but pictures of Jesus with bright blue eyes do seem comical. Unfortunately they make Gaillo's point about religious distortion. (Oops, maybe this post belongs back in the religion/spirituality thread...)

Sparky,
Ask, and ye shall receive! ;D

[MAGNES]

Two glaring examples are the fact that [1] YHWH (God's name) was removed from the Bible and replaced with LORD (because this supposedly offends jews) and also the teaching that [2] Gentile means non-jew when Gentile (usually) is translated from the word ethnos, which means race, tribe, or nation. And the word [3] Jew which (usually) is the word Judea and described a geographic region on it's inhabitants, but not specifically a particular ground of inhabitants. [ the entire area was city states, people do not understand this ] [4]


I'd say you got more than 3 points there to research this way.
You can check these points, it would require some real research, using different versions.
Especially more direct translations and compare to KJV. You would also need study aids.
Like " New Testament Greek ", etc, what did the actual word used mean back then, in that
setting. This matters big. You can compare NT with OT too, with more direct translations.
They exist. NT didn't go through the hoops OT did. I have posted on this a few times on
here with more direct references.


LOL. I share OHL's faith, but pictures of Jesus with bright blue eyes do seem comical. Unfortunately they make Gaillo's point about religious distortion. (Oops, maybe this post belongs back in the religion/spirituality thread...)

Blue eyes in the region today and stock of European peoples,
Blond, Red, Ash Brown, Brown, are still a reality for Christians in this region, the ones
that survived, despite everything that has happened. Some of my threads on history
Byzantine material is related to this, creation of the Hellenistic Kingdoms, etc , Syria
today is being attacked, this area was a wall defending Europe and Europeans from
Muslim onslaught. Ancient places like Aleppo and Antioch.
Who is attacking this region today ? Jews and Muslims.
ASSAD, The Defender of the Christians has blue eyes.
http://stumbleinn.net/forum/showthread.php?t=27379
http://www.presidentassad.net/ASMA_AL_ASSAD/Asma_Photo_2009/Asma_Akhras_Al_Assad_Family_Pictures_2.htm

[singular_me]

it is trivial to discuss the facial features or skin color of Jesus... unless one leans toward idolatry.

I really dont care if Buddha was shaving his head.

The message should be ALL what matters. IMHO

One shouldnt judge somebody by his appearance or use his appearance to make a point

[Horn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-79uI_u9Src&feature=related