did ponce get his land patent?

[chad]

i believe saturday was the day. i'd be interested in knowing how it came out.

[zap]

I commend Ponce for doing all he can to get the patent and not paying any property taxes, I know he has done alot of work on it and I hope he gets it, I just think they will change the rules or come up with some clause, and his patent won't be worth the paper its printed on.

[midnight rambler]

I commend Ponce for doing all he can to get the patent and not paying any property taxes, I know he has done alot of work on it and I hope he gets it, I just think they will change the rules or come up with some clause, and his patent won't be worth the paper its printed on.

Don't be such a pessimist. Very few have the 'nads to pursue any such thing. This certainly includes the vast majority on this forum.

[EE_]

I hope so too. He'll be the first I've heard of.
I know sombody that has tried unsuccessfully.

[zap]

Don't be such a pessimist. Very few have the 'nads to pursue any such thing. This certainly includes the vast majority on this forum.

Oh dont get me wrong I am a optimist I just know as do all of you here that the game is rigged and we are only the players, TPTB make the rules, and can/have changed them anytime they want.

[MNeagle]

http://gold-silver.us/forum/showthread.php?63580-Patent-Land-Kit&highlight=patent

Today is the date Ponce gave, but it's a federal holiday... isn't this patent to be approved via the courts? If so, they're not open!

[ArgenteumTelum]

A friend of mine living in WA state obtained a patent for his land. It all depends on where you live. If in one of the 13 original colonies, it may be nearly impossible. My best hopes for our Ponce.
AT

[midnight rambler]

I hope so too. He'll be the first I've heard of.
I know sombody that has tried unsuccessfully.

I know of one fellow who hasn't 'paid' 'property taxes' on his place for several years. The county keeps pursuing the matter though, so far unsuccessfully. He's very good at keeping them at bay.

[madfranks]

I know of one fellow who hasn't 'paid' 'property taxes' on his place for several years. The county keeps pursuing the matter though, so far unsuccessfully. He's very good at keeping them at bay.

Could you define "paid" and "property taxes" for us, since you put them in quotations I assume you mean something other than what one might normally take them to mean.

[midnight rambler]

Could you define "paid" and "property taxes" for us, since you put them in quotations I assume you mean something other than what one might normally take them to mean.

First of all one cannot pay* diddlely squat if one does not have lawful money to pay with, as it's not possible to PAY a debt with a debt. Only the mentally incompetent/insane think that's possible. Secondly, if one 'pays' 'property taxes' then they don't actually own the land, they are tenants on the land and what's called 'property taxes' (lol) is in truth rent. And just like any other landLORD/tenant relationship, quit 'paying the rent', find out who REALLY owns the land and get evicted in short order.

My friend has not rendered the county a single FRN for 'property taxes' in several years.

*the term 'pay' means to extinguish the debt and nothing else - I have to question the lucidity of anyone who says they are able to 'pay' a debt with a debt (which is really discharging debt with limited liability under the UCC)

[chad]

i'm interested in this. have they been applying a tax lien against his property, or has he kept them at bay in this regard. i always assumed they would try to apply a lien, but maybe not?

[midnight rambler]

i'm interested in this. have they been applying a tax lien against his property, or has he kept them at bay in this regard. i always assumed they would try to apply a lien, but maybe not?

Haven't spoken to him in a while, a mutual friend keeps me posted, so dunno if they've attached a lien - but probably not 'cause he's a great researcher and is willing to stand up to them in court. However if the county has attached a lien there's nothing they can do in Texas until he passes on as homesteads are protected from a 'taking' while the homestead owner is still alive.

[madfranks]

First of all one cannot pay* diddlely squat if one does not have lawful money to pay with, as it's not possible to PAY a debt with a debt. Only the mentally incompetent/insane think that's possible. Secondly, if one 'pays' 'property taxes' then they don't actually own the land, they are tenants on the land and what's called 'property taxes' (lol) is in truth rent. And just like any other landLORD/tenant relationship, quit 'paying the rent', find out who REALLY owns the land and get evicted in short order.

My friend has not rendered the county a single FRN for 'property taxes' in several years.

*the term 'pay' means to extinguish the debt and nothing else - I have to question the lucidity of anyone who says they are able to 'pay' a debt with a debt (which is really discharging debt with limited liability under the UCC)

I understand all of that, which is why I clarified in my comment, "something other than what one might normally take it to mean", because most people in this world would consider the act of giving FRNs to the county for property taxes, paying their property taxes. Since you used those words in quotations, I assumed you meant something else. So in effect by saying he didn't "pay property taxes", you're saying he didn't remit FRNs for rental privileges. Ok, I got it, thank you.

[Ponce]

Yes.............Ponce did get his land patent........the recorder made me take the paper work to a Public Notary to witness my signature, once again.........when I took the paper work to the tax man he told me that I would have to pay property taxes anyway because a case already went to the US Supreme Court........he told me that the tax people already had Land Patent "before" the Land Patent was given to the people.........makes to sence to me so that I know will have to investigate thie............................the Supreme Court case was

Smith V Department of Revenue
330 p5 227 998P 2d675 (2000)
cert der 531 US 1013,121s ct 570
148 2. Ed. 2d 488 (2000)

If there is a lawyer out there please check this out for me and let "everyone" know as to what is going on.

I know will have to find out what good is to have a Land Patent because to me if you have to pay taxes then that will give the government the right to walk in at time that they want to.

As far as I am concern I just might sue the attorney that got everyone all excited about this...crap, crap and triple crap.

[midnight rambler]

he told me that the tax people already had Land Patent "before" the Land Patent was given to the people

Exactly who are these 'tax people' who "already had" a land patent "before" the people?

[chad]

i thought you already knew 12 people who had done this and they were the ones teaching you?

[Neuro]

Yes.............Ponce did get his land patent........the recorder made me take the paper work to a Public Notary to witness my signature, once again.........when I took the paper work to the tax man he told me that I would have to pay property taxes anyway because a case already went to the US Supreme Court........he told me that the tax people already had Land Patent "before" the Land Patent was given to the people.........makes to sence to me so that I know will have to investigate thie............................the Supreme Court case was

Smith V Department of Revenue
330 p5 227 998P 2d675 (2000)
cert der 531 US 1013,121s ct 570
148 2. Ed. 2d 488 (2000)

If there is a lawyer out there please check this out for me and let "everyone" know as to what is going on.

I know will have to find out what good is to have a Land Patent because to me if you have to pay taxes then that will give the government the right to walk in at time that they want to.

As far as I am concern I just might sue the attorney that got everyone all excited about this...crap, crap and triple crap.
I found this PDF, that might be the one you are referring to:
http://www.oregon.gov/dor/timber/docs/303-424.pdf
It hasn't opened for me yet, so I don't know...

[Ponce]

Well, the same as those 12 land owners I also did get my Land Patent........but you know me, I like to dig a little bit dipper so that I asked the tax guy to give me the whatchamacallit from the Supreme Court because I wanted to give to my attorny (that's bull, cheaper to pay the tax and shut up).

And I also wonder about the "tax people" who got the Land Patent "before" the people got theirs......sounds kind of screwy to me.........will keep you guys updated of any new developments.

[Uncle Salty]

Was this a Johnny Freedom idea?

[DMac]

I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on tv or internet


Yes.............Ponce did get his land patent........the recorder made me take the paper work to a Public Notary to witness my signature, once again.........when I took the paper work to the tax man he told me that I would have to pay property taxes anyway because a case already went to the US Supreme Court........he told me that the tax people already had Land Patent "before" the Land Patent was given to the people.........makes to sence to me so that I know will have to investigate thie............................the Supreme Court case was

Smith V Department of Revenue
330 p5 227 998P 2d675 (2000)
cert der 531 US 1013,121s ct 570
148 2. Ed. 2d 488 (2000)

If there is a lawyer out there please check this out for me and let "everyone" know as to what is going on.

I know will have to find out what good is to have a Land Patent because to me if you have to pay taxes then that will give the government the right to walk in at time that they want to.

As far as I am concern I just might sue the attorney that got everyone all excited about this...crap, crap and triple crap.


Found this:
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/or-supreme-court/1009340.html


SMITH v. DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE

William Ray SMITH, Appellant, v. DEPARTMENT OF REVENUE, Respondent, Douglas County Assessor, Intervenor below.

(OTC 4407;  SC S46823)

Argued and Submitted March 8, 2000. -- April 13, 2000

William Ray Smith, pro se, Days Creek, argued the cause and filed the brief for appellant.Robert W. Muir, Assistant Attorney General, Salem, argued the cause for respondent.   Wendy Sanderson, Assistant Attorney General, filed the brief for respondent.   With her on the brief was Hardy Myers, Attorney General.Paul E. Meyer, Douglas County Counsel, Roseburg, filed the brief for intervenor Douglas County Assessor.

Taxpayer challenges the right of the Douglas County Tax Assessor to assess taxes on land that taxpayer acquired pursuant to a federal mining patent.   The Oregon Tax Court dismissed the challenge.   Taxpayer appeals.   We affirm.

 Taxpayer asserts that his land is exempt from state taxation.   All real property within the state is taxable under ORS 307.030.   ORS 307.010 defines real property as:

“the land itself, above or under water;  all buildings, structures, improvements, machinery, equipment or fixtures erected upon, above or affixed to the same;  all mines, minerals, quarries and trees in, under or upon the land;  all water rights and water powers and all other rights and privileges in any wise appertaining to the land;  and any estate, right, title or interest whatever in the land or real property, less than the fee simple.”

(Emphasis added.)   Taxpayer argues that his land is not subject to taxation under the statute because he holds title in fee simple.   According to taxpayer, only property that is held in less than fee simple is subject to taxation.   The Department of Revenue (department) responds that the phrase “less than the fee simple” modifies only the wording that appears after the last semicolon in the statutory definition of “real property,” viz., “any estate, right, title or interest whatsoever in the land.”   According to the department, the statute, when so read, defines “real property” to include both land held in fee simple and land held in less than fee simple.   We agree with the department.

Taxpayer further argues that his patent conveys to him the federal government's “immunity” from taxation.   Taxpayer's patent grants land to him to hold

“together with all the rights, privileges, immunities, and appurtenances of whatsoever nature thereunto belonging unto the said grantee above named * * *.”

(Emphasis added.)   Land held by the federal government is tax-exempt, ORS 307.040, and taxpayer argues that one of the “immunities” granted to him in his patent is the federal government's immunity from taxation.

 The department relies on Crawford v. Dept. of Rev., 14 OTR 554, 1999 WL 299741 (1999), in which the Tax Court addressed an argument virtually identical to taxpayer's, concluding:

“First, the United States government cannot confer its privileges and immunities upon patent grantees.   Second, the rights, privileges, and immunities recited in the patent are those appended to or attached to the land, not those inherent in the federal government.”

14 OTR at 556.   We agree with the Tax Court's analysis in Crawford.   The judgment of the Oregon Tax Court is affirmed.

[Neuro]

I guess you can look upon the property tax as a fee to maintain your land patent? :( Sorry it didn't work out for you Ponce!

[midnight rambler]

My friend who's not being paying any property taxes researched back to the late 19th century and discovered that the 'property tax' in Texas is only applicable to bankers and corporations, fwiw. Very telling imo.

[Neuro]

Couldn't one argue in the courtcase above, that the court is obviously biased against Smith and the case he brought, as they call him taxpayer, even before it was established that he needs to pay tax?

[madfranks]

Well, the same as those 12 land owners I also did get my Land Patent........but you know me, I like to dig a little bit dipper so that I asked the tax guy to give me the whatchamacallit from the Supreme Court because I wanted to give to my attorny (that's bull, cheaper to pay the tax and shut up).

And I also wonder about the "tax people" who got the Land Patent "before" the people got theirs......sounds kind of screwy to me.........will keep you guys updated of any new developments.

Maybe it's similar to how only religions established prior to a certain date are recognized the right to exclude themselves out of various gov't programs (social security being one of them). So maybe the only land patents they recognize are the ones set up prior to the current property tax statutes?

Ponce, I do agree with midnight rambler on this, that you have 'nads for giving this a shot, and I sincerely hope you the very best in your endeavor.

[Santa]

The Black Robes will knife you in the back and push your dead carcass off the plank.

They are the Black Robes. The Pirates of Maritime. The Judiciary with the powdered wigs.

Necromancers and Warlocks. The Magi.

[Ponce]

Will you guys try and find this crap for me?

Smith V Department of Revenue
330 p5 227 998P 2d675 (2000)
cert der 531 US 1013,121s ct 570
148 2. Ed. 2d 488 (2000)

A lot of sites quote it but no actual paper work on it that I can read.......I did find out that by crossing over then numbers on the tax bill and above it write "without preduce" and below write USS 1-308 would work........and also....you can unregister your land and simply recorded it............but to me all this is only Si-Fy till I can read some real evidence......one way or another.

Looks to me that England is still the pre-owner of all the land in the US so that they hold the Land Patent before the Americans Land Patent owners got theirs............I smell war ahead.

[Ponce]

Interesting read about UCC 1-308...........SHORT READ

http://www.sicknesshope.com/node/610

[zap]

I talked to a attorney about 3 years ago about getting a land patent, this attorney thinks like all of us , as far as gold/silver and a corrupt government are concerned (he is actually a good family friend).

When I asked him about a land patent , he said yes I can get you one, but don't waste your time or money on it, because they are going to get their taxes from you whether you have a patent or not.

[Glass]

Interesting read about UCC 1-308...........SHORT READ

http://www.sicknesshope.com/node/610

That is interesting. It's an interesting take on an issue we have had several times. Where we "modify" something on one of these demands or offers to contract. By modify I mean replace some text with other text or add text in. Would it work? Who knows.

This is my summary of all of this after having studied it for maybe 6 years. I can sum it up in this sentence "People make mistakes".

The thing is see, there are all these billions of words making up millions of rules and they can't all be strictly obeyed. You and me, we make mistakes. The system is designed to catch us when we do. We drive to fast, we don't send our 1040's in on time, we don't mow the council verge. Broken rules.

Government makes mistakes as well. They make just as many as we do.

The thing, is to get them to make a mistake or anticipate the mistake they will make and be prepared for it. I've spoken about how I feel this is what Winston Shrout does. That OP scenario kind of relies on this principle a little bit in my opinion. As in you change this document they sent you and try to get it filed. Ok you get it filed. It's on the record. You know there are penalties for Govt going against the "contract".

It all makes sense. Is it underhanded, sneaky or just plain hopeful you will get a contract like this through. It might seem so to the uninitiated but this is how it works. You look for the weakness and you build your own position to that weakness. Then you exploit it if you can or if you need to (going to court).

Ponce. Have you paid the Lien Taxes? What with?

Did the clerk tell you where the record was of the original patent holders? There must be something to provide the basis for their comments. EDIT: Sorry the court case was the reference they used.

I don't believe you can asign an "interest" in a patent land parcel. That's the whole point of getting your patent. So the question becomes why are there two land patents for the same plot of land.

I personally think it's a trick/lie. Same stuff they pull in the lower courts. They lie, you give in, they keep collecting taxes. Needs more research though. A hunch is not a defendable position.

[7th trump]

Will you guys try and find this crap for me?

Smith V Department of Revenue
330 p5 227 998P 2d675 (2000)
cert der 531 US 1013,121s ct 570
148 2. Ed. 2d 488 (2000)

A lot of sites quote it but no actual paper work on it that I can read.......I did find out that by crossing over then numbers on the tax bill and above it write "without preduce" and below write USS 1-308 would work........and also....you can unregister your land and simply recorded it............but to me all this is only Si-Fy till I can read some real evidence......one way or another.

Looks to me that England is still the pre-owner of all the land in the US so that they hold the Land Patent before the Americans Land Patent owners got theirs............I smell war ahead.
Ponce my friend!
To understand this land patent better and whats going on you really need to go to www.1215.org .
Seriously Ponce, I'm not joking around, email William Thornton from 1215.org asking him to help you understand whats going on. Mr. Thornton will reply....hes a kind man that always helps.
Tell him I sent you (hippalator@msn.com, the guy, a few years ago, who had lengthy emails between a bunch of hardhead CtCer's about why CtC doesnt work......Social Security). Mr. Thornton should remember me...he was apart of that lengthy email discussion to educate these hardheads.

Basically the land patent isnt going to work until you understand what makes the difference between a "US Citizen" and the "People".


http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Real+property

[Ponce]

Thanks Trump.......Glass? of course there is a chani of custody from the first owner all the way to me, in my case there were 17 previous owners.......the main thing about a land patent that I wantes was for no one to be able to walk in my property and tomorrow my signs are going up.

Just got back from a Counsil Meeting for this town and there were only three of the seven counsil memebers present, WTSHTF this town will be in deep doodoo unless I do something about it.......first thing is to talk to the local newspaper, will see.

By the way, my land tax is only $350.00 and with the improvement tax $560.00.

[Glass]

Ponce. How did you pay those taxes. Possibly goes to 7thTrumps information. I'm thinking FRN's (aka legal tender) Vs USN's (United States Notes aka lawful money). Not sure but that's partly where I think this discussion is going.

[willie pete]

I commend Ponce for doing all he can to get the patent and not paying any property taxes, I know he has done alot of work on it and I hope he gets it, I just think they will change the rules or come up with some clause, and his patent won't be worth the paper its printed on.

my first thought about this compadre was; IF it's legit, then why isn't everyone in the country doing it? they're not doing it because it won't fly..there's nothing new under the sun, in fact in FL, the damn HOA can cause Foreclosure on you if you don't pay your HOA fees, even though FL IS a Homestead state, IF you don't pay your property taxes, then your property will eventually go to a tax-certificate sale and will be sold out from under you

[goldleaf]

Willie Pete, nice avatar, but liked the other ones better!

[palani]

IF it's legit, then why isn't everyone in the country doing it?

If you are "in the country" you admit liability to whatever debt government cares to assign you. You cannot be "in the country" and live debt free.

Fortunately there are other options to being in the country.

[Katmandu]

Fortunately there are other options to being in the country.

Don't leave us hanging like that Palini!

[palani]

Don't leave us hanging like that Palini!

There are several solutions to the problem but the solution that will work for you will be the one crafted by you. To help you on your journey

A tythe is ten families.
A hundred is ten tythes.
A county is an administrative subdivision of a state,
The body politic of a county is cities, villages and townships.
A state is a body politic (a legal fiction) but contains no people.
A municipality is the officers that represent it.
The District of Columbia is a municipality.

The first two items above are intended for people. You will find no people in any of the other legal fictions.

Good luck on your journey.

[Ponce]

OK people, happy days are here again......I know for sure that only the US Supreme Court can make any changes to a Land Patent........the "Smith v. Dept. of Rev." was decided by The Supreme Court of Oregon........BIG MISTAKE, the reason for this is that the original Land Patent was signed by the president of the US so that only The US Supreme Court of WASHINGTON DC or the president of the US can make any changes hahahahahahahahahah

By the way......our postings are now part of this case..... http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=330+Or+227+998p+2d+675+(2000)&oq=330+Or+227+998p+2d+675+(2000)&gs_l=hp.12...8078.57938.0.62735.31.30.1.0.0.0.593. 9420.2-16j8j5j1.30.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.zPgZ9x9taMg&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=2796f4bfc11aeef5&bpcl=35243188&biw=1017&bih=471

[Glass]

yes google picks up GSUS very quickly these days. Sometimes I can't find something I posted here 5 minutes previous. Google's got it for me. Useful but scary

[Ponce]

Tell me about it, if you were to type my full name you then would say......say whatttttttttttttt hahahahaahahaahah.

[Ponce]

Yesterday I spoke with one of the City Attorney's and he cut me off by saying ........... "I am not threating you, but if you don't pay your tax you will loose your home"......and this came to mind.......

An actual or threatened excersice of power over another is cohersion and duress which will render the payment invonluntary.[Cleveland v Smith 132 us 318]

The land patent is the highest evidence of tittle and is inmune from collateral attack. [Raestle v Witson, 582p 2d 170,172 (197)]

[Cebu_4_2]

So what do you do about that?

[Ponce]

Well, the second court case that I quoted covers that, trying to make me pay property tax while I am holding a Land Patent is "collateral attack" ......so that I willing to go to course.

Because I now hold a Land Patent that places me above all those who don't have one, so that I can request for a "real" judge to hear the case (instead of a commissioner) and I have the power to question the judge about his knowledge about land patent and dismissed him if I don't think that he knows enough.

A patent for a land is the highest evidence of tittle and is conclusive as
against the govenment and all claming under junior patent of tittle.
[United States v Stones 2 US 525]

The above say a lot because the tax man is trying to use a junior patent of tittle to try and make me pay tax...a lower court (Oregon state supreme court) cannot automatically rule over the US Supreme Court without the case going to the same.......this will be fun.

[palani]

Since you have the guy talking why not ask him how much it will cost to buy your way out of the property tax scheme. You might start by asking how you can extinguish any debt with another debt instrument. You are able to discharge a debt with a FRN but it doesn't go away.

I heard of a guy in NY state who was able to get the state to pin down the cost for a property to be removed. If I recall it was around 7 times the property tax bill and it had to be paid in Canadian silver (from memory) of the equivalent amount. You could not pay in domestic silver because they would accept it at face value.

You somehow engaged in a contract somewhere to have the property tax bill sent to you. You have to have this contract cancelled without you falling into dishonor. The issue is not the land patent. The issue is this silent contract.

[Ponce]

That's simple to do.....when they send you a tax bill then that in itself is a contract that you acknowledge by sending a payment.......but......if you were to cross out all the number that you don't like and inicial each one and then write across the bill UCC 1- 308 and then write "without prejudice" and signed you they would be saying that the contract is illegal and you don't acknowledge it........all this I will do on my nex tax bill and I will also add "Land Patent in affect".

And to kill it I might even add this........ A patent for a land is the highest evidence of tittle and is conclusive as
against the govenment and all claming under junior patent of tittle.
[United States v Stones 2 US 525]

[palani]

A patent for a land is the highest evidence of tittle and is conclusive as
against the govenment and all claming under junior patent of tittle.

This is true. But realize that ownership and possession are two separate entities. Occasionally possession is joined with ownership but this does not necessarily happen. The tax lien dispossession is one means by which possession and ownership become disjointed. If you have a tax lien event in your chain of title (abstract) then you are not even in the chain that extends back to the land patent and have no claim upon it.

[Ponce]

My land patent went back to its initial start that was made by congress and signed by the president in 1862 (Cleveland), the taxes came into play in 1913 when the Fed was formed and we gave them the rights to tax us based on future loans, that's a tax that we are still paying under "improvement tax" that goes to the IMF.....while it has nothing to do with "property tax" they are both joined by the hips which makes them into one tax.

People don't realise that we are stronger than the laws because we the people are the ones that should be making the laws.......in the biggining the laws were made to "protect" the people but now they are made to enslaved us and to propect the govenment and those working for the government.

[palani]

Land is not what is sold at a tax lien auction. The paper (debt) on the land is what is sold. Your land patent rights as owner remains intact. So does your possession for several years after the auction. The buyer of the tax lien gets a guaranteed 2% interest per month (varies by state). After the period to redeem expires the buyer of the tax lien can then apply for a deed (most likely in the form of a quit claim) from the state which will be granted. This is then used by the sheriff to displace the land patent holder from his property.

Through all this process your rights as the holder of a land patent are never violated. These rights can be passed from generation to generation. However, most likely the patent holder or his family will never see possession joined with ownership again.

[palani]

Assets to satisfy debts have been seized by governments since before the start of the present country in 1868.

http://i48.tinypic.com/27zasxs.jpg

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=P3HMU8IszGwC&dat=17570502&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

The notice given to King George in the Declaration of Independence contained the following: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Your fortune is your estate.

[Ponce]

Interest and true........but only if it was made to king Ponce or other entity here in the states and not to the one from a foreign country......my land patent came to me clear of any "incumbency" and a tax happens to be one of them......because I made a direct link between myself and the original land patent owner I become the original land patent owner, in other words, the land patent was given to me by the congress and approved and signed by the president of the US....

The land patent is the highest evidence of tittle and is inmune from collateral attack. [Raestle v Witson, 582p 2d 170,172 (197)]........to me a tax is a collateral attack.

Neither a town or its officers have any right to appropiate or interferewith private property. [Mitchel v City of Rockland -15 me. 496]......and the same for this one.

A state may provide for the collection of tax in silver or gold only.[State treasurer v Ritht]...... a property tax is a contract, said contract was broken in 1933 when the US did away with silver and gold as the standard of payment.

(Opinion of U.S. Attorney General - Sept. 1869). A Land Patent is the highest evidence of title. Since Land Patents cannot be collaterally attacked as to their "Validity" or "Authenticity" as the highest evidence of title; Federal Land Patents were given free and clear 'ALLODIAL Title' with no encumbrances, then and now]. ................THEN AND NOW

The Patent alone passes land from the United States to the grantee and nothing passes a perfect title to land but a (WILCOX v JACKSON, 43 Peter (U.S.) 498, 10 L Ed. 264) ".... with no fee or duty (TAX)!!!

This are only a few of the lawyarise yack jack that I found that protecs my land patent from anyone or anything.


ALL STATE COURTS LACK JURISDICTION OVER FEDERAL LAND PATENTS ...........I have to find the legalise on this one because I saw it only as part of a coment.......if I find it I can tell the tax man to get f*ck.

[palani]

I agree completely. No one can touch the land patent. What is touched is the result of other agreements you might have engaged in.

[Ponce]

I haven't signed any other agreement.....also......I have given a lot of thoughts about this......and.......from now on any document thay the send me and that they want me to sign and send back I will write in another piece of paper the following........." I have recieved and read your letter attached to this note but I will not sign it, a copy has been made", this is so that they will not attach another document to my note.

By the way Palani.......see if you can find the truth about this one......very important.

ALL STATE COURTS LACK JURISDICTION OVER FEDERAL LAND PATENTS

[Ponce]

Never mind.......the state is the boss when it comes to land patents.....crap, crap and triple crap.

[7th trump]

Never mind.......the state is the boss when it comes to land patents.....crap, crap and triple crap.
Exactly Ponce!
You will never get a land patent to hold water until you know and understand the difference between a "US citizen" and the "People".
That www.1215.org website I provided you a few days ago adresses the importance of "Rights" vs. "civil rights".
You will not ever get a land patent to stick until the state recognizes you as the "People" rather than a meezly "US citizen".
Are you receiving Social Security benefits Ponce?
If you are, then you are a "US citizen" subject to property taxes.

See 5USC 522a(13)

(13) the term “Federal personnel” means officers and employees of the Government of the United States, members of the uniformed services (including members of the Reserve Components), individuals entitled to receive immediate or deferred retirement benefits under any retirement program of the Government of the United States (including survivor benefits).

Social Security is a government agency and "survivor benefits" come directly from Social Security.
You are "federal personel" Ponce.
Until you get off the governments benefit tities and under the jurisdiction of the state where you can access the full Bill of Rights as the People you will continue to be imposed the property tax.

The state will not recognize you as the "People" to grant you the power of a land patent.......the states hands are tied until you pull yourself out of federal jurisdiction.

[palani]

Pursuit of the assignment of the land patent is not a wasted exercise. It is a first step. The state seems to like to think they are the gatekeepers but in my opinion they are instrumental in people not achieving their greatest potential.

[Ponce]

Well, I am a Cuban rebel.......speaking as the original land patentee......"I was given the land patent by congress amd my land grant was approved and signed by the president of the usA......the land patent came free of tax or any other incomversen (or what ever you call it) and the government and state has no right to tax me for my land".

For example..........."I walk into a restaurant and order a piece of apple pie and a glass of milk, the owner brings it to my table, I take my first bite of my apple pie and then someone taps me on my shoulder, is the owner that then tells me "Sir? for every bite the you take you have to pay me five cents and and for every sip from that glass of milk you have to pay me three cents"......say WHATTTTTTTTTTT.........this is the argument that I intend to give in court........by taking this land patent I now have the same rights AS THE ORIGINAL grantee of this land patent and NO ONE can now change the rules of the game..........I am now the top dog with this patent and now NOT EVEN congress can change this, I learned this last night......this would take care of the land patent.

If the president declares martial law then that (I think) would change everything.

About the "improvement tax" it started in 1933 when the usA government gave our property to the Fed in exchange of futures loans for paper money created from nothing....... the apple pie sample applys here.

Once again.......The land patent is the highest evidence of tittle and is inmune from collateral attack. [Raestle v Witson, 582p 2d 170,172 (197)]

The tax man told me the following......."The state can tax you because the US owned the land before it was given to the people"...... well, the US government NEVER owned any land but the land was in TRUST of the US government...for example, just because you tell me to take care of your dog that doesn't mean that the dog is now mine.

[Ponce]

Well, today I got my new tax for next year......$606.35...up $43.00 from last year....and tomorrow I will work on a letter wich I will send back with the unpaid illegal contract.........any lawyers out there?, suggestions are welcome.......because I "don't" have the money for an attorney I will be going to court (when the time comes) in pro se, but to me it is very clear that they are violating my civil rights by wanting me to pay an illegal tax that I never did sign for.........the land was given to me by an act of congres and with no attachments, it was approved by the president and the document was signed by him.

[Cebu_4_2]

the land was given to me by an act of congres and with no attachments, it was approved by the president and the document was signed by him.

What precident? Can we get said picture of document of course obscure any information relating to yourself. I find this a very interesting subject.

[Neuro]

Well, today I got my new tax for next year......$606.35...up $43.00 from last year....and tomorrow I will work on a letter wich I will send back with the unpaid illegal contract.........any lawyers out there?, suggestions are welcome.......because I "don't" have the money for an attorney I will be going to court (when the time comes) in pro se, but to me it is very clear that they are violating my civil rights by wanting me to pay an illegal tax that I never did sign for.........the land was given to me by an act of congres and with no attachments, it was approved by the president and the document was signed by him.
Well I guess you can begin by Arguing that you are not PONCE, and that you will consider their proposal if they send you a document that is properly addressed to you.

[Ponce]

Grover Cleveland was the president (1888)........I think that's how you spell it.........Zuzzi Hogue was the first person to get my Land Patent, $10.00 for acrea and she bought 160 of them.......that was the most ammount that was given at that time, after that came the ranches who neede more land for their cattle and one guy was able to get 3,200 acreas.

No where have I read that anything or anyone is above my land patent, now days not even congress can touch it once that it has been given out.....we are now giving (selling?) a lot of land to China in exchange for the money that we owe them and is being done without the American people knowledge (Learn Spanish and Chinese and buy water stocks).

I also found out that my water rights from my creek is PERMANENT and that no one can touch it, kind of nice :)......free water by gravity and for free..................by the way, yesterday I tested my water wheel idea and now I am putting together, it works great and I can improve it still more...... I haven't test it yet to see what the W output is.

[Ponce]

Hey guys, I will have to stop posting here, I just found out that all that I am doing is giving the other side the ammo to use against me................sorry about that :(

[freespirit]

Hey guys, I will have to stop posting here, I just found out that all that I am doing is giving the other side the ammo to use against me................sorry about that :(

can you elaborate on that a little? are they watching your posts?

[Ponce]

Today I called "someone" and he told me "Let me transfer you to someone else"......someone answered the phone and said "Offices of so and so"......and I hung up........THERE WAS NO REASON for that someone to transfer me to so and so, I can only believe that the office of so and so was the one for their city attorny..........I allready spoke with them and they are the ones that told me "I am not threating you, but if you don't pay your tax you will loose your home"......need I say more?

[Dogman]

Do you have "Huge signs" hung on your house and fence stating, "My online name is Ponce!?"

From what you said in the above post could go several ways.

Just be cautious about your personal business on line. You do not have to go "Poof" like you do
sometimes. Just give a thought or two before posting.

Edit: You called ___________(fill in the blank) and they said they were transferring your call to ______________(fill in the blank)

So did you call them or did they call you? It may have been because of the nature/subject of your call that had them transfer your
call. To someone that had the answers you were calling about.

[osoab]

Hey guys, I will have to stop posting here, I just found out that all that I am doing is giving the other side the ammo to use against me................sorry about that :(


Just don't post about your current affairs regarding the land patent.

Or start a new thread in board communications to deal with this issue specifically.
Tthen mods can find out which new member has been lurking in your thread.

[Neuro]

That seems like a reasonable explanation Dogman, it happens very frequently when I try to get answers from local authorities, usually the answer ends up bullshit anyway, but that's what it is...

[Ponce]

Pluto? I din't have call, he simply transferred my call to whoever......their lawyer is right down from where this other guy is at.........he was probably told to transfer my call whenever I called.

Osoab? good idea.....thanks