Dog Vaccinations

[DMac]

So I am once again a dog owner, a proud parent of a pup who is a little over 4 months old. I have a vet appointment coming up soon for the second round of shots.

We have all talked openly on gsus about the evils of human vaccinations but I do not recall seeing much debate about pet vaccines.

Has anyone done their diligence and can share what is beneficial, what isn't? I know many of you own dogs (looking at you General, Rambler and others).

[midnight rambler]

I've had a dog die from Parvo (no, he wasn't vaccinated for it). It's an extremely unpleasant experience for both the dog and owner. Distemper is also very real - and ugly/nasty like Parvo. I vaccinate mine with rabies, DHLP (distemper, hepatitis, lepto & Parvo - apparently you have to get all four, can't just leave out one), and the Bordetella (kennel cough) vax. I view it as a calculated risk...don't want to lose one of my irreplaceable, very expensive dogs to something which I could have prevented. JMO A breeder I have a ton of respect for is opposed to vaccines and claims on her website http://kaiserhaus.com "no vaccines", but I'm uncertain what she does to prevent risk/exposure. I suggest you DYODD, perhaps contact Cindy at Kaiserhaus and get some info from her.

Cindy and her Elka dog, one of the best female working Dobermanns ever in N. America (and directly related to my dogs - and Enzo) -

http://kaiserhaus.com/Pictures/cindyelkabw.jpg

[Osiris]

I have some info on my home computer I will try to find later for you. There is a huge problem with over vaccinating in dogs IMO. I wouldn't give them to my dog. I think it is mostly fear mongering. A puppy is the only time I would worry but given good nutrition and keep them away from other dogs that could be ill is important. For instance, I wouldn't take a small puppy to a dog park or pet smart until their immune system is good. Socialize with dogs you know, etc. Of course dogs die from parvo and other diseases but just like humans can die from the flu, does that mean we should all take the vaccine just in case?

Btw, congrats! What breed?

[midnight rambler]

I have some info on my home computer I will try to find later for you. There is a huge problem with over vaccinating in dogs IMO. I wouldn't give them to my dog. I think it is mostly fear mongering. A puppy is the only time I would worry but given good nutrition and keep them away from other dogs that could be ill is important. For instance, I wouldn't take a small puppy to a dog park or pet smart until their immune system is good. Socialize with dogs you know, etc. Of course dogs die from largo and other diseases but just like humans can die from the flu, does that mean we should all take the vaccine just in case?

Btw, congrats! What breed?

Right on about exposure as young puppies.

[Ponce]

For my fat ass dog I simply go to the feed and pet store and tell them that I need all the shots that my dog and cat needs and they simply give them to me.......they do as as to how heavy they are and how old.......they being doing this for about 40 years now, they know what they are doing.

[iOWNme]

I would be willing to bet that if you could make a chart to correlate the time that dog vaccinations became 'mandatory', you would see that at the exact same time diseases in dogs has multiplied many times.

Just like in human vaccinations.

Vaccinations are a form of 400 year old quackery medicine. Why dont we just try bleeding out the dog? LOL

[midnight rambler]

I would be willing to bet that if you could make a chart to correlate the time that dog vaccinations became 'mandatory', you would see that at the exact same time diseases in dogs has multiplied many times.

Just like in human vaccinations.

Vaccinations are a form of 400 year old quackery medicine. Why dont we just try bleeding out the dog? LOL

When I was growing up we lost a Boxer to distemper. And like I said, I've experienced Parvo, with my own dog and watched a friend's dog nearly die from Parvo (the survival rate for Parvo is extremely low). I can expect my dogs to die from old age anytime after they turn 9 y.o. (the geriatric threshold for dogs the size of mine), so if my dogs survive to 9 y.o. then I'm happy. I have ten$ of thousand$ in this bloodline - so distemper and Parvo in particular are a couple of things I'm not willing to take a chance on. At this time any side effects from vaccines are the least of my worries, really. After the collapse/train wreck/calamity there may not even be vaccines available anyway.

And fwiw, I recall a breeder back in the early '80s who claimed heartworms in dogs was 'something made up by vets' to sell heartworm preventative. lol

[DMac]

Sammie the schnoodle. Dad was a mini schnauzer, mom a poodle. I don't have the paperwork handy (wifey has it) but I know she did the first round of shots, pretty sure it was the distemper stuff MR mentions. My big concern was the rabies shot - if your dog runs into a rabid animal I doubt the shot is going to save it and rabies is transmitted from one infected animal's saliva to the blood of another animal. So I am having a tough time in my mind justifying this one.

My previous dog passed about 10 years ago. He suffered from seizures and required phenobarbitol doses daily. I wonder if his vaccines played a role in this, similar to autism in humans?

As she has not had all her shots I have kept her indoors with me (I work from home full time these days). I am looking forward to our daily walks which I planned on starting around month 5, and after I did the next rounds of shots. But now I am not 100% sure I want to do all that the vets recommend.

She is a smart cookie, it took 2 days to get her wee-pad trained.

[midnight rambler]

Congrats on your new furry kid.


if your dog runs into a rabid animal I doubt the shot is going to save it

At the very least it will save it from dying of rabies. But that's not the point of the rabies vax - the point is to keep YOU and ANYONE ELSE safe from contracting rabies from YOUR dog after it's been exposed.

[DMac]

MR, do you do any annual vaccinations, or just the initial set?

[midnight rambler]

MR, do you do any annual vaccinations, or just the initial set?

I make out like I'm 'too busy' to do the puppy shots at the schedule my vet recommends, so I stretch those out, not wanting to get a young pup so pumped up with vax. Have no idea whether that is beneficial or not, I just feel better about it. lol And as Osiris correctly pointed out, the main thing is to minimize exposure of puppies to risks, and atm I don't recall what the threshold is - it may be as young as four months. Again, I suggest you DYODD on that.

I do do the annual DHLP, however they've got the rabies vax that's good for up to 3 yrs. (IIRC, maybe only 2), so I take that to the limit. I board mine from time to time so they get the bordetella too, when I anticipate boarding them.

[Osiris]

I found this one, but I know I have a good one at home...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5s4s33Spdfw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

One of my dogs vomited within 30 minutes of receiving the first rabies shot and then developed a rash and hair loss around the shot site days later. He never got a vaccine again after that.... It is always an issue at the vet unless I just said he got it elsewhere.

Parvo in adult dogs is not common. The puppy stage would be the biggest concern for me and I still wouldn't advocate for it. It is very expensive and very difficult to get a puppy through parvo, however, the vaccine is still no garuntee that the puppy won't get it.

[midnight rambler]

Parvo in adult dogs is not common.

I lost an otherwise very healthy and robust young adult to Parvo. And get this - he was ONLY exposed to my other dogs, on very secluded property at least 1/2 mile from the closest neighbor. And none of my other dogs had been off the property in that timeframe.

Anyone else can do whatever they please with their dogs, perhaps they'll 'just get another dog'. I cannot afford that luxury as one of the primary reasons I have these particular dogs is to propagate the specific genetics that is their makeup. This particular bloodline I have is virtually non-existent and at this time in the hands of a very few people (most of whom have little, if any, interest in propagating this bloodline, they just want that one exceptional dog) - this bloodline is a direct throwback to the very best working Dobermanns of the 50s, 60s, 70s, and into the 80s, as close as possible to those fine examples, undiluted with nonsense (which has moved away from the original intent of Herr Dobermann). When one objectively compares working Dobes (as originally intended and bred for by Louis Dobermann) to 'everything else' which *looks like* a Dobermann it's like two entirely different breeds, a day and night difference.

Dobermanns are strictly for those who are serious about having a very serious high drive working dog and willing to make that commitment, and Doberman Pinchers are for everyone else who likes to fantasize they have a real working Dobermann. lol

So I vaccinate my dogs to insure (as best I can) that I don't lose them to something I could have prevented.

[Osiris]

I lost an otherwise very healthy and robust young adult to Parvo. And get this - he was ONLY exposed to my other dogs, on very secluded property at least 1/2 mile from the closest neighbor. And none of my other dogs had been off the property in that timeframe.

I never said it was not possible. I said it is not common. I am not telling anyone what they should do, I am simply providing information I have and expierences I have had with my dogs and working in animal hospitals.


Anyone else can do whatever they please with their dogs, perhaps they'll 'just get another dog'.

I really hope you are not implying that I feel like I can just "go get another one"......


I cannot afford that luxury as one of the primary reasons I have these particular dogs is to propagate the specific genetics that is their makeup......

I get that you are doing something specific with your dogs, etc, etc, etc.... However, just because I have a "pet" dog doesn't mean I love him any less than you love your dogs. I do what I think is best for my dog to be as healthy as possible and prolong his happy life as long as possible. I spend a fortune on my dogs nutrition and he is very well cared for through excersise, training (I could do better on that one), and love.


So I vaccinate my dogs to insure (as best I can) that I don't lose them to something I could have prevented.

And I don't vaccinate my dogs to insure that I don't lose them to something I could have prevented. Just like with humans, I believe that given the best nutrition and proper exercise their immune sytems should be strong enough to prevent/fight disease.

As usual we will probably have to agree to disagree.

I am sorry to the OP if this is viewed as a derailment..... I will still try to find the other information I think I have at home.

[midnight rambler]

I appreciate where you're coming from Osiris, however I have yet to experience any problems with my way of doing things, and I've only had problems when not using vaccines for my dogs. So at this time I find the most prudent thing for me to 'protect my investment' is to vaccinate. I got complacent a few years ago and we developed a big gaping hole in our breeding program by not getting any progeny out of some key dogs (due to timing), one in particular we will NEVER be able to come anywhere close to replicating due to very rare and unique combination of genetics.

This one -

38053806

That was Brunhilde aka Gracie, granddaughter of two of the best SchH Dobe males in N. America in the past 25 years. Gracie was the most SERIOUS and ABSOLUTELY FEARLESS Dobermann I've ever seen (I called her Crazy Gracie - you will note in the first photo she's listening for anything potentially going on behind her when there was no one/no dogs anywhere in sight, NOTHING got past her). When I say irreplaceable, I mean that in the extreme - not simply because I'm attached to any particular dog - because they are vessels of very unique genes.

[iOWNme]

So I vaccinate my dogs to insure (as best I can) that I don't lose them to something I could have prevented.

No offense Midnight, you know i love you.....But this sounds like you copied and pasted this from the CDC fear mongering campaign.....LOL

You do realize there are cases where dogs have died from Parvo AFTER being vaccinated for it, right? Just like in humans.



http://www.parvobuster.com/blog/parvo-news/parvo-vaccinations-what-the-vet-won%E2%80%99t-tell-you (http://www.parvobuster.com/blog/parvo-news/parvo-vaccinations-what-the-vet-won%E2%80%99t-tell-you)

Parvo vaccinations have long been accepted as a vital precaution in preventing your dog from being infected by the Canine Parvovirus, and yet our research and experience with our own customers highlights three major things that your vet probably isn’t telling you.

Firstly, most vaccines in use today are no longer protecting dogs against the latest 2c strain of Parvo.

This 2c strain, which came to light in the USA during 2006 (although it had been present in Europe and other parts of the world for much longer), is much more aggressive and fast-acting than the older 2a and 2b strains.

We had one customer, in the pacific North West, whose dog first showed Parvo symptoms on a Sunday morning, and by late that same afternoon, it was dead.

We are finding more and more customers who have fully-vaccinated adult dogs, as well as puppies, that are getting Parvo and, if not treated, dying from it.

Until recently, only Intervet manufactured vaccines that had been 100% challenge-tested against the 2c strain, but we’ve now had customers whose dogs had been vaccinated using their products, and yet still developed Parvo.

So, don’t assume that because your dog (whether old or young) has been vaccinated, he’s safe and will be immune.

Secondly, and we know this sounds counter-intuitive, but Parvo shots are actually giving dogs Parvo.

Again, we have many customers whose dogs develop full-blown Parvo symptoms within literally one or two days after being vaccinated.

Several customers can relate to this, because their own children got the ‘flu within days of being given the vaccines.

Well, the same thing is happening with dogs and their Parvo shots.

If you think about it, the vaccines contain the live virus, albeit modified, and they are designed to weaken the dog’s immune system, as that is how they are supposed to work – well, that’s the theory. And if that weren’t bad enough, many vaccines contain multiple viruses – anywhere from four to seven or eight at a time.

Finally, and perhaps most worrying of all, is the fact that research has now shown that all vaccinations, not just Parvo ones, can weaken your dog’s immune system. This means that your dog will be more likely to become ill in the future.

Other side-effects of vaccinations include chronic inflammation, which will cause the obvious issues such as arthritis, but inflammation has now been proven to be a leading cause of cancer.
The vaccines themselves also contain all sorts of toxic chemicals, which are not going to do your dog any good at all.

Although the AVMA has finally revised their recommendations regarding booster shots from annually to every three years, even this is too much. Other research has shown that vaccinations are effective for at least seven years, and maybe even life.

So, to summarise, Parvo shots are no longer that effective against the latest 2c strain, they may even given your dog Parvo, and they can cause long-term health issues such as cancer.

Your vet will probably argue against all of these points, but please remember – it’s your dog, and you have the right to know all of the facts before making an informed decision, and not be bullied into doing something you don’t want to do.

If you want to read more, we highly recommend a book called “The Nature Of Animal Healing (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345439198?ie=UTF8&tag=parvobuster-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0345439198)” by Martin Goldstein DVM, and especially Chapters 3, about Diet, and 4, about Vaccinations.

[ArgenteumTelum]

My Vizsla (now 8 1/2) receives the usual required shots. A year ago, I had to make the decision about a Lyme's vaccination. Living in an area with a high incidence of Lyme's and now knowing 3 people whose dogs died from it I went ahead. A first shot followed by a booster 2 weeks later. After the first shot, he became so ill for a few days as the vaccine did its thing that I did not take him back for the 2nd. Yes, I have to do the flea/tick thing monthly until hard frosts set in. He gets a thorough inspection after each outing. I'll take the risk with Lyme's...he was so ill I was totally fearful for his life. Love my beastie.
AT

[milehi]

I only get the vacs required to board my Rhodesian Ridgeback and Weimaraner. The owner of the cage free big dog ranch only asks for rabies, bordatella, and DHPP which is required by the county. Other than that they get a rattlesnake vac annually.

[MAGNES]

So I am once again a dog owner, a proud parent of a pup who is a little over 4 months old. I have a vet appointment coming up soon for the second round of shots.

We have all talked openly on gsus about the evils of human vaccinations but I do not recall seeing much debate about pet vaccines.

Has anyone done their diligence and can share what is beneficial, what isn't? I know many of you own dogs (looking at you General, Rambler and others).

Congratulations DMac, I am no expert here, you have some good advice above, I haven't had vaccines in my dog for about 3 years now, and it is about time to do some again, my research indicates you don't need yearly, also other dogs had no problems and some vaccs asking my dad who kept a beagle, his interval was 3 years for all the main ones, and another one for hunting dogs, just in case they eat something rotten. Vett wasn't even pushing yearly.

Only got that kennel boarding required vaxx once and only will do it if I need to board.

I waited for my new dog to be at least full size, 6 months, before I got any vaccinations.
Then I made sure he did not get them all at the same time. The vaccines made him slow.
He was feeling it. He was too young to take hunting so he didn't need them all at once.
What is your dog doing, if you don't let him run around outside, in forest, you too could
employ some sort of strategy like this.

Time for me to look at everything again. My dog is very healthy, knock on wood.
English Fox Hound, these little monsters don't make good pets. He has lived better
than the majority of city dogs ever live. I am very fortunate to have my pops take
him in the fields many mornings. He encounters lots of critters including fights
with Coyotes. If he does not get out like this, he digs holes, lol .

[midnight rambler]

I just had a 40 minute phone conversation with one of the two vets I use (at the same clinic). Dr. W. is very progressive, open-minded, and very reasonable along with being very straightforward. I've been working with these two vets for about 14 years. Dr. W. definitely does not believe in unnecessary procedures, which I will get to. His reasoning is very sound and based on science.


I waited for my new dog to be at least full size, 6 months, before I got any vaccinations.

This is a mistake, and one you take at the risk of losing your puppy to parvo. Parvo can live in the soil for up to 10 years, it's EVERYWHERE and can be tracked in from elsewhere. The maternal antibodies (received through the colostrom which the puppies get in the first 24 hours of nursing) any puppy receives begin wearing off at about six weeks, depending on the individual, some more, some less. If one doesn't vaccinate until say six months then the puppy is progressively more and more without immunity starting at about six weeks to the point that the maternal antibodies have completely worn off and the puppy has ZERO immunity. This is why the first DHLPP vax is given at six weeks. The maternal antibodies may neutralize this first shot at six weeks which is why there's a DHLPP booster given three weeks later. And then another at 12 weeks and the last one at 16 weeks. Depending upon the strength of the maternal antibodies the vax at nine weeks may also be neutralized (perhaps only partially) by the maternal antibodies, which is why at least two more DHLPP boosters are given (at 12 and 16 weeks). After this initial series of vax one may chose not to do any more, ever, because the dog has as much immunity at that point as it's going to get. HOWEVER there's good reason to continue with selected vax on an annual basis (it should go without saying one should do the rabies vax, it's just the prudent thing to do, it's totally irresponsible not to, and nowadays the rabies vax is definitely good for 3 years), the main reason being is that humans are susceptible to leptospirosis which can lead to kidney failure. Dr. W told me he says 10-12 lepto in dogs cases a year, and lepto can be passed from your pet to you. Dr. W advised me that the only vax he personally does annually is the leptospirosis vax, because all the sources (Texas A&M Vet School for one) are now saying that it's the ONLY vax that *really* needs to be done annually since the leptospirosis is only good for a year. The distemper, hepatitis, parvo, and parainfluenza vax he administers every other year along with the lepto vax (the whole DHLPP) since those vaccinations are good for two years. Dr. W advised me that any vet who wants to do the entire DHLPP annually isn't up to speed.

It's tough to find competent, honest vets, I'm fortunate enough to have two available at the same clinic.

[Osiris]

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/why-i-dont-vaccinate-my-dogs-at-all/

I found this.... There are many others but they are all similar. I still can't find that video I remember from a while back. I have a friend looking for it as well.

Here is another thing to think about.... To "fix" or not to "fix", are they broken?

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

[midnight rambler]

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/why-i-dont-vaccinate-my-dogs-at-all/

I found this.... There are many others but they are all similar. I still can't find that video I remember from a while back. I have a friend looking for it as well.

bad link

When someone says they don't vaccinate their dogs 'at all', I take it this includes the rabies vax?

[Osiris]

bad link

When someone says they don't vaccinate their dogs 'at all', I take it this includes the rabies vax?

It worked fine for me when I tried it again....

Yes, rabies too.

[midnight rambler]

I've tried it 4 times (including cutting and pasting once) and each time I get a blank white page with only this on it -


<!-->

As for not doing a rabies vax, not only is that just plain stupid, it's dangerous too, and by that I mean dangerous to innocent bystanders who could contract rabies from an unvaccinated pet and die. It is the height of irresponsibility imo. Lepto is not as dangerous a threat as rabies, but it's still a danger to the dog owner (and anyone else a lepto infected dog could be a vector for). If anyone wants to expose their dogs to those risks that's certainly their choice, but not vaccinating for rabies crosses the line imo.

[Osiris]

I've tried it 3 times and each time I get a blank white page with only this on it -



As for not doing a rabies vax, not only is that just plain stupid, it's dangerous too, and by that I mean dangerous to innocent bystanders who could contract rabies and die. It is the height of irresponsibility imo.

Wow! What forum are you on?

http://www.cdc.gov/Features/dsRabies/index.html

In 2009 there were 81 dogs that contracted rabies... 81..... So that means they (81 in how many?) were bit by a wild animal with rabies and then would have to bite a human to transmit it... What are the chances of those events happening? Fear mongering at it's best!

[MAGNES]

And then another at 12 weeks

I got my pup at 12 weeks, he was still with his mom and pop, I saw them both,
very impressive, I am glad I met them both, took him right away to vett
and 3 months later I came back for shots, vett was involved in this decision.
From my knowledge you shouldn't be taking pups away from mom till 12 weeks,
or they will have issues ? I have no idea what breeders do. I got my dog from
a farmer who had a beautiful litter , 2 parents with with papers, both used for
hunting and show by the farmers daughter, lol . I hope I am not giving bad advice
on here, I just relayed my experiences. 4 shots in row MR, I never did that ever,
as I recall it was one main shot, then a booster, for main vaccines. The rabies vacc
as I recall has never come out of separate bottle. The shot for hunting dogs does
though, I don't know the name. All my papers are in one file, I can check exactly,
if someone wants.

So I am getting file from my desk here.

So this is the schedule for my dog, vett was involved with all of this.
I would not be in a position to argue with vett.

DHPP/Bord/Rabies, one heavy duty shot, got the booster 3 weeks later.
Listed as one item on invoice.

This first shot my dog felt and I notice it in his behavior, this is a 50 pound dog,
that never stops moving.

After got, Lepto and Giardia on same day.
Then got boosters 2 weeks later. These are separate needles I believe.
Listed separate on invoice. My dog didn't respond to these the same way.
He was normal, but a slight bit older maybe heavier. Giardia is for hunting
dogs in danger of drinking stagnant water or eating something they should
not when left alone in bush, Giardia is a parasite.

It's been 3 years, wow, I got to get on this, my vett bill actually lists reminders.
I forgot about this, they want my money and shots every year for everything almost.
DHPP and rabies are now listed separately in reminder.

Sorry to confuse you DMac. LOL ! Maybe I am a negligent owner.
The only one I been really thinking about recently is Rabies shot.
I read the certificate, they guarantee 2 years on it for Rabies.
I need to have a closer look at this too, I have notices from vett
about Lepto and how important it is.

[midnight rambler]

Wow! What forum are you on?

http://www.cdc.gov/Features/dsRabies/index.html

In 2009 there were 81 dogs that contracted rabies... 81..... So that means they (81 in how many?) were bit by a wild animal with rabies and then would have to bite a human to transmit it... What are the chances of those events happening? Fear mongering at it's best!

The county adjacent to the one where I'm located (the county line is <1 mile from my location) historically has the highest incidence of rabies of ALL counties in the entire state of Texas, and according to my vet it's probably due to the local bat population, which btw has an estimated rabies infection rate of 2%(!). So where it's just the prudent thing to do.

I'm thinking that perhaps the very low rate of rabies infection from the CDC site you referenced is due to just about everyone getting their pets vaccinated for rabies. Ya think maybe that's it?

[midnight rambler]

From my knowledge you shouldn't be taking pups away from mom till 12 weeks

You will get a number of opinions on this, it can largely depend upon the breed. Many are in agreement that puppies need to be with their littermates for 8-9 weeks for crucial doggie socializing, however I sent my last litter of puppies out at 7 weeks just 'cause IT WAS TIME FOR THEM TO GO after providing 24/7 care for their critically injured dam and them for 11 weeks. And there were no negative repercussions from doing this as far as we can tell. Cindy Rhodes sent me a male Dobe puppy when he was only five weeks old, and she's a highly respected, very experienced breeder - that particular boy NEVER had any socialization issues, in fact he was exemplary in his behavior toward other dogs his entire life, having never gotten into a fight ever with any other dog (despite his over the top drives and despite other dogs trying to start some shit with him).

One thing is for sure, at about 4-5 weeks every momma dog I've ever observed wants those puppies OFF of her and will make every effort to wean them.

[ImaCannin]

My vaccinated puppy got parvo and died. I asked the vet " why did my vaccinated puppy get parvo" the vet LAUGHED at me and said, "the vaccination you gave your dog this year, is for last years virus"

That was back in 2000. I have raised a few litters of puppies and have never vaccinated again. My 3 dogs have never been vaccinated.

Here is a rabies insert ..... It tells you right in there that the rabies vaccination can cause autoimmune disease..
http://www.reversingvaccineinduceddiseases.com/files/3638448/uploaded/Rabies%20insert.pdf

[DMac]

I really appreciate all the input in this thread, so thanks all around.

My pup had DHPP shots or boosters at 6, 8, 11, 15 and 19 weeks (picked her up just after last shots). The initial vet visit I have coming up is for a rectal check (stool sample) and rabies shot. I am waiting for her to call me back prior to going as I have a list of questions to ask.

Something that confounds me is that dog vaccines (from what I've read so far) are a 1 size fits all model. Chihuahua or Great Dane, same rabies shot. That seems a bit off, no? Logic tells me this science is behind the times. Also, some vets list rabies @ 1 year, others 3 year. Did you know the vacc cocktail is the same for each one? It was due to various state laws that manufacturers started labeling them differently.

In my area of NY it is tough to get a dog with no shots and if you don't get rabies done the state can come down on you. I will do the initial rabies, I feel like there is no other choice. MR, Texas is definitely high on the potential rabies contraction scale compared to my area of NY, so I understand..

From what I read so far vaccines in dogs sometimes grant immunity up to the full life of the dog. The key is to get yearly titers for distemper, parvo and rabies and have a vet smart enough to not blindly give more shots than necessary. I absolutely do not want to be in a regular vaccine schedule (I refuse this). Once she's grown I will start working in natural immune boosters, which is an area I still have a lot more research to do, but assume it can't be too far off from things that boost human immune systems.

http://www.dogs4dogs.com/blog/2008/10/22/titer-test/

MR, milehi, great looking dogs in those pics. Ridgeback is one of my personal favorites. When I have the space to support an animal like that I will own one myself. Any dog that will hunt lions is a freaking rock star in my book.

[Osiris]

Ima, I'm sorry to hear you lost a puppy and thank you for the info.

Dmac, when I got one of my dogs his first rabies shot (1yr) the office automatically sent registration info to the county. Just an FYI... They then recommend getting a 3 year after that and for the rest of their lives. I don't know if the contents are the same for the 1 and 3 year. I was told I could do the titer as well, very pricey though.

Good luck in whatever you choose!

[DMac]

Ima, I'm sorry to hear you lost a puppy and thank you for the info.

Dmac, when I got one of my dogs his first rabies shot (1yr) the office automatically sent registration info to the county. Just an FYI... They then recommend getting a 3 year after that and for the rest of their lives. I don't know if the contents are the same for the 1 and 3 year. I was told I could do the titer as well, very pricey though.

Good luck in whatever you choose!

Thanks Osiris.

I meant what I wrote above about the 1 year vs 3 year rabies vacs. Look it up if you folks don't believe me. The cocktail is the same and the labels vary because of different state laws.

Asinine!

[Osiris]

Thanks Osiris.

I meant what I wrote above about the 1 year vs 3 year rabies vacs. Look it up if you folks don't believe me. The cocktail is the same and the labels vary because of different state laws.

Asinine!

Got a great article from a friend...

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2009/08/04/when-it-comes-to-vaccinating-your-pet-less-is-more.aspx

It says the same about the 1-3 yr... Also good info on the financial gain. Crazy mark up on vaccines.
I never found the video I was thinking about :(

http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/education

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/06/27/dr-becker-interviews-dr-royal.aspx

[DMac]

Along these lines, I'm starting to question whether to spay this one. Folks spay and neuter dogs at young ages, I think this could lead to hormone issues, no?

[midnight rambler]

Along these lines, I'm starting to question whether to spay this one. Folks spay and neuter dogs at young ages, I think this could lead to hormone issues, no?

It can lead to incontinence issues in females. And if you do spay (or neuter), I would DEFINITELY put it off until it's fully matured.

[DMac]

After several phone calls I've cancelled my vet appointment with the mainstream place and found a leader in holistic vet medicine that is actually pretty close to me. Appointment set for tomorrow. I will update with how my consultation goes.

BTW, after calling several vets, almost every one told me that Purina was the best dog food I could give my pup. I swear the older I get the more respect I lose for what is apparently a majority of ignorant/lazy medical professionals. Why I thought vets might not be as sold out as most MDs shows my ignorance. Something I am working hard to correct.

[Osiris]

Along these lines, I'm starting to question whether to spay this one. Folks spay and neuter dogs at young ages, I think this could lead to hormone issues, no?

Did you see the PDF I linked to regarding spay/neuter? Not sure if you are questioning because of that or something else.


After several phone calls I've cancelled my vet appointment with the mainstream place and found a leader in holistic vet medicine that is actually pretty close to me. Appointment set for tomorrow. I will update with how my consultation goes.

BTW, after calling several vets, almost every one told me that Purina was the best dog food I could give my pup. I swear the older I get the more respect I lose for what is apparently a majority of ignorant/lazy medical professionals. Why I thought vets might not be as sold out as most MDs shows my ignorance. Something I am working hard to correct.

Good luck and I am very interested to hear how it goes.

Purina? Holy crap!!!! The food a vet pushes is a good sign to stay far, far away!!! I worked for a vet that pushed science diet as the best food ever.... Yuck!!! When I am at a major grocery store and see the dog/cat food for sale I want to post a sign that just says "cancer".....

[iOWNme]

BTW, after calling several vets, almost every one told me that Purina was the best dog food I could give my pup. I swear the older I get the more respect I lose for what is apparently a majority of ignorant/lazy medical professionals. Why I thought vets might not be as sold out as most MDs shows my ignorance. Something I am working hard to correct.

LOL....Yes, dry KIBBLE pellets have everything a growing canine needs. Everyone knows dogs were not meant to eat raw meat and bones. They were designed to eat dry kibble full of carcinogens nad other 'filler' like grain, wheat, corns (GMO), etc. Vets know best! SARC/

We feed our APBT a BARF diet. (Bone and Raw Food) There are a ton of good sites out there with great info on this if your interested.

http://www.barfworld.com/

http://homemadedogfood.com/?gclid=CMvBwvD_-LICFQfhQgodjXQAnw


Here is a good site for comparing all kinds of dog foods

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/

[DMac]

SJ - The vet I am seeing later today has a link on her site to BARF and recommends it. I am looking forward to discussing the transition from the kibble/can to raw, among other things.

Osiris, I didn't read the pdf link yet. Will check asap. Thanks.

Edit:

I read the PDF. It is well sourced and very informative. All dog owners should read this before deciding on castration/hysterectomy procedures.


http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

[ImaCannin]

I have been feeding a raw diet since 2000. Its the best way to go , if you can source good meat. Last year we had a hard time finding decent chicken, it got to the point where my dogs would not even touch it! So this year we grew our own chicken and they love it! We ended up feeding them Taste of the Wild for a while. It has no grains in it and suppose to have human grade meat, but I just recently found out that their dog food is made by Diamond dog food, Diamond is one of the dog foods that had the bad ingredients from china.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkyBv2wA8tU

Back in 2000, I was able to buy a vaccination for 1.00 from a farm store. at that time, the vet was charging 35.00 to vaccinate a dog.
Vaccinations are the biggest money maker for a vet. I think Parvo was the result of a feline vaccine.

One time I was at a dog trial and ran out of chicken, so I had someone pick me up some chicken when they went to the store. They must of picked up the most horrid meat the store had because both my dogs got 2 inch long eye boogers coming out their eyes. You can tell when your dog has reactions to food like that.

[Old Herb Lady]

sorry if re-post--


http://www.organic-pet-digest.com/herbal-medicine-for-dog.html#sthash.e1MAZQic.dpbs

http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/nosodes.htm

[Osiris]

Ima, are you feeding a prey model raw? I tried with my boy but couldn't get his stools normal. He didn't seem to chew the bone enough. I finally got there with chicken only but then as soon as I introduced a new meat he had loose stool again, eventually I couldn't get normal stool with just chicken anymore either. Still gets it as a treat sometimes but not his regular diet anymore.

That is why I went to prepared raw instead.

http://m.naturesvariety.com/InstinctRaw/dog/orgchicken

Dmac, that is awesome! Best of luck!

[DMac]

This was a great read for all pet owners, related to that clip IMA:

What’s Really in Pet Food (http://www.bornfreeusa.org/facts.php?more=1&p=359)

[midnight rambler]

I used to feed strictly the AFS fresh frozen raw (FRESH 100% beef organs and meaty bones ground up together along with vitamin supplements) until it got way too pricey for me. Now I feed strictly Orijen dry which has the lowest cooking temperature I've found for a kibble (195 degrees F). At some point in the future I will return to feeding a BARF diet at least partially, but after talking extensively with Gerry Nash the founder of Animal Food Service (who's been in the fresh frozen raw animal food biz for about 40 years supplying mostly zoos longer than anyone in the pet food biz) I'm wary of any BARF diet being nutritionally incomplete. I've checked out all the commercially available 'fresh frozen raw meat' pet foods and AFS is in a class by itself imo.

[ImaCannin]

This is the book I got to get me going!

http://www.amazon.com/Natural-Nutrition-Dogs-Kymythy-Schultze/dp/1561706361
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513hXy45F1L._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg

[ImaCannin]

Ima, are you feeding a prey model raw? I tried with my boy but couldn't get his stools normal. He didn't seem to chew the bone enough. I finally got there with chicken only but then as soon as I introduced a new meat he had loose stool again, eventually I couldn't get normal stool with just chicken anymore either. Still gets it as a treat sometimes but not his regular diet anymore.

That is why I went to prepared raw instead.


Osiris, not sure what a prey model is???
I mostly feed raw chicken , then once or twice a week, I feed either lamb or beef. Red meat seems to make their coat not as shiny. I do at times cut the bones out of my raw meat, before I cook it and give to them as a snack. Right now they are getting turkey parts, like the wing.. I have a hard time cutting it up to can. You are suppose to give them veggie meal about 3 times a week. I have not been doing that as much as I should. In the veggie meal, I put some sea kelp, chlorella, spirulina and alfalfa (all pre - fukushima bought) squash, or other veggies . I try not to feed any root veggies as there are too many carbs in them and can cause eye boogers or ear crud. When I have a beef butchered, I save the bones. They get big knuckle bones every so often. They love to chew the marrow out of them. I also save the fat from my butchered animal. As long as I dont give them too much they do fine on it. The only time I think they have had loose stools is if the food was bad. Most of the time, my dogs barf poop is about 2 to 3 inches long, turns white in about a week and by two weeks you can walk on it and it smashes up. Its not like those commercial dog food logs that are 12 inches long and can be there for a whole season and look the same as the day it got laid! (think of a 6 month old twinkie)

[midnight rambler]

Gerry Nash of AFS probably has more experience with fresh raw meat diets for animals than anyone in the country. In one conversation I had with him regarding DIY BARF type diets he brought up the issue of the 'calcium-potassium ratio' or some such and how important it was to have that right and why. DIY raw meat diets are not as simple as they sound, and if one is not careful one can be feeding their pet a nutritionally deficit diet which will catch up with one's pet over time.

[ImaCannin]

This is a radio show - The Power Hour - Joyce has on a natural vet talking about vaccines.
http://podcast.gcnlive.com/podcast/power_hr/1016122.mp3 (scroll thru commercials! )

[General of Darkness]

Other than Enzo's initial shots that MR gave him and a booster, he hasn't received a shot since then so it's been WAY over 2 years, BUT I NEVER EVER EVER take him to dog parks and socialize him with other dogs that I'm not familiar with. HOWEVER, if I'd ever have the need to put him a kennel I'd have to get him shots.

Now the food thing, RAW is very expensive and time consuming and with 3 dogs it doesn't make sense for me. The main person in our club is a former chemical scientist and lives and breaths dobermans, she swears up and down about Purina Pro-Plan and she's having dobermans live to 13 and being able to do work past 8 years of age. I switched to Pro-Plan about 18 months ago and ALL my dogs love it.

[Osiris]

Other than Enzo's initial shots that MR gave him and a booster, he hasn't received a shot since then so it's been WAY over 2 years, BUT I NEVER EVER EVER take him to dog parks and socialize him with other dogs that I'm not familiar with. HOWEVER, if I'd ever have the need to put him a kennel I'd have to get him shots.

Now the food thing, RAW is very expensive and time consuming and with 3 dogs it doesn't make sense for me. The main person in our club is a former chemical scientist and lives and breaths dobermans, she swears up and down about Purina Pro-Plan and she's having dobermans live to 13 and being able to do work past 8 years of age. I switched to Pro-Plan about 18 months ago and ALL my dogs love it.

I agree that raw is expensive, but doesn't have to be difficult. If I had more than one I couldn't afford to feed what I feed.

As far as purina, I can't imagine anyone not making money off it saying it is good. There are a ton of different 'kinds' of purina dog foods but they all fall in the lowest category of quality.. Here is one example.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1400&cat=all

I have no doubt that some dogs wouldn't have issues and would still live long but there are many other factors as well. Just my .02....

Ima, thanks. I'll listen later.

[General of Darkness]

As far as purina, I can't imagine anyone not making money off it saying it is good. There are a ton of different 'kinds' of purina dog foods but they all fall in the lowest category of quality.. Here is one example.
http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/showproduct.php?product=1400&cat=all


Well I do go by facts. Ann is a "SCIENTIST", who breeds and trials dogs. At the end of the day, who OWNS dogfoodanalysis.com and is it financially beneficial for them to make statements in a certain way? I don't know, but I bet they do.

I do know that Pro Plan is VERY dense. You ever seen dog food expand after you put water in it? Well that's not good because that's how a dog flips its stomach. I'd go on, but I'm not in the mood of proving a point. People that I trust and respect say do this, and I do it. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

[Osiris]

Well I do go by facts. Ann is a "SCIENTIST", who breeds and trials dogs. At the end of the day, who OWNS dogfoodanalysis.com and is it financially beneficial for them to make statements in a certain way? I don't know, but I bet they do.

I do know that Pro Plan is VERY dense. You ever seen dog food expand after you put water in it? Well that's not good because that's how a dog flips its stomach. I'd go on, but I'm not in the mood of proving a point. People that I trust and respect say do this, and I do it. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

In the link I included it states...
If an antioxidant is used, the common name or names must be indicated, followed by the words "used as a preservative". We note this is the fourth ingredient in the food and that research at Purdue University has identified fat in the top four ingredients of dry food as a factor increasing the risk of bloat in large breed dogs. contradicting.... No? Not even sure that that is the one you feed and I am not trying to argue, I am just trying to help. I have done a ridiculous amount of research on dog food, I am no "scientist" but that doesn't mean I am a retard. There are plenty of "scientists" out there claiming that vaccines are good for you.... Just saying.

[DMac]

I really liked the vet I found. She refuses to administer more than 1 vaccine at a time claiming that you run a good risk of overwhelming a dog's immune system and she administers holistic treatments to counteract the negative effects of vaccinations (some herbal mix, I don't know the details exactly). She does not approve of the multi shot vaccines. She said it is hit or miss with the dog whether or not the immune system will cope with that much hitting it at once. With kennel cough, it depends which kennels you take the dog to. There is a kennel nearby she recommended should I need that service that does not require it as all the dogs medical histories are known. She said she can cure kennel cough should the pup get it pretty easily.

We did the rabies shot per NY law and then administered a counter to the side effects. Again I am not sure of the exact mix, I don't remember. We spent 2 hours there talking about a range of issues and some details are fuzzy. She does support the parvo, distemper and rabies vaccines. All others she said are basically pointless/unnecessary. She has had a distemper infected skunk on her property which a stray cat caught (she cured and vaccinated it) and seen many cases of parvo over her career. In this case, the risk is worth it as it is a pretty common affliction in my area and is transmissible via saliva on a piece of wood, or shed etc should an infected animal be near. I plan to run the dog through nature trails nearby so this is a concern. If the pup were to stay in the house full time (no) then she could understand not wanting the shots up to date but I have plans for the outdoors.

We ran titers for distemper and parvo. I have not heard back yet, should be another week before the lab returns the results as to whether or not the pup built the correct antibodies. The initial vaccinations she received was harsh (hepatitis, influenza among others).

With regards to feeding, she gave me a large sample of this greens vitamin, looks like oregano but is some mix. I will get the brand when I go back to ask about where to purchase. We are feeding the pup Bravo balance raw chicken and she freaking LOVES it. This dog chows down like mad when that bowl hits the floor. I add about half a teaspoon of the green vitamin mix and about 1/4-1/2 teaspoon of salmon oil to the food. This gives her all the vitamins and minerals she needs.

(edit - keeping the vet name off this thread as it would give you my rough whereabouts...but I'll say that she is a close friend of this guy:
http://www.drpitcairn.com/)

[DMac]

Also, about the raw food diet, we are going to be switching up week to week. I gave her a pig's ear, I had no idea how much the pup would enjoy that!

If anyone does do home foods, raw all the way, mix in some sweet potato (cooked). Brown rice can be used but there are better starches for dogs than rice. It is very fattening.


General - Nestle owns Purina and I wouldn't feed that crap to my dog. Nestle is a Zionist friendly company.
Ahmadinejad enacts boycott law against ‘Jewish’ corporations (http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/en/news/9444/ahmadinejad_enacts_boycott_law_against_jewish_corp orations)

People can live to 80 eating tons of Wally world frozen foods and McDonalds but that doesn't make it right or healthy.

[Osiris]

That's awesome dmac! I'm glad you liked her and are happy with the treatments and reccomendations! Have fun with your pup!

[DMac]

That's awesome dmac! I'm glad you liked her and are happy with the treatments and reccomendations! Have fun with your pup!

Thanks Osiris, this has been one heck of a learning experience for me.

[DMac]

Other than Enzo's initial shots that MR gave him and a booster, he hasn't received a shot since then so it's been WAY over 2 years, BUT I NEVER EVER EVER take him to dog parks and socialize him with other dogs that I'm not familiar with. HOWEVER, if I'd ever have the need to put him a kennel I'd have to get him shots.

Now the food thing, RAW is very expensive and time consuming and with 3 dogs it doesn't make sense for me. The main person in our club is a former chemical scientist and lives and breaths dobermans, she swears up and down about Purina Pro-Plan and she's having dobermans live to 13 and being able to do work past 8 years of age. I switched to Pro-Plan about 18 months ago and ALL my dogs love it.

Purina is a kosher owned enterprise. Put your money where your mouth is!