Small Estate Sale score (I hope) LOL

[beefsteak]

I was at an estate sale a while back and just unpacked a box of stuff. In it I found a small, 4" round, brass+lid container which had a paper top and an old lick on sticker. Neatly printed on that sticker was: 14K

I opened it, and found all kinds of flat rectangular, metal squares, that looked to me like had been nibbled on by the tiniest of snips. (see photo)

I guessed I was looking at rectangles of solder, especially since the word SOLDER was engraved on some of them. Most of them had a big letter "N" in a circle and some indication of quality, altho' the lingo written in the ring surrounding the "N" logo didn't make total sense to me.

Anybody on here either a jeweler or tight with a jeweler and could ask what brand "N" is?

There was also some 4" lengths of half round metal, and 2 - 4" pieces of metal tubing. I guess those are something to do with the project solders, as well.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.

CLICK TO ENLARGE:
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[still afloat]

It looks as if you have gold solder for jewelry work , yes it comes in the small sheets and you clip it off in squares for soldering .
The 3 pieces you have pictured appear to be 10k yellow plumb solder 14k plumb white solder and 5k yellow solder for repairs on plated , gold filled .etc its a low temp solder and low karat more or less just for the yellow color in repairs .
The half round and tube would probably be just stock gold pieces , karat unknown without testing as they are not stamped since they are used to make jewelry with , the stock would not be stamped as there is no way for the company to attest to the k of the finished product , which if it was stamped with k and the company it would suggest that the k was 10 , 14 , 18 .etc but the half round if stamped from the company with karat and halmark could be soldered onto a brass or other yellow metal and passed as the stamped k of gold which would leave them possibly liable due to their hallmark and karat stamp on it.
The N hallmark I'm not sure of but will check into it more .

[beefsteak]

AWESOME response. I'm looking forward to the 'N' mystery being solved now.

Those are very tiny little nibbles taken off the upper edges of each square. Is that ALL the solder a jeweler has to use? Those tiny bites?

How on earth does the jeweler hold them in place when they are holding the hot torch in their other hand?

Should I sell them as solder or just send them to a refiner and get paid minus their fees, etc.? I didn't think they'd bring much premium as they are, chewed up and all. Am I wrong?

How did you know they were plumb? One I didn't photograph had a P after the 10 number. I thought that meant IT was the only plumb.

Glued to this thread, hoping to learn more. THANKS, afloat.

[still afloat]

Yes only takes a small little bit for soldering.To hold the solder you take a sharpened steel rod "I use a wooden tooth pic* dip the tip in your flux and touch it to the solder to pick it up and place it on the piece being soldered .Depending on what you are soldering you can use your torch and just touch it to the solder and it will instantly form a ball or you can place it on the work as a flat snip.The flux used on the piece will hold the solder till it flows so the torch doesn't blow it off , can happen but not when fluxed correctly.
You want to use as little as possible so there is less cleanup and puddling of solder when finished.
That 1 little snip of solder will flow and solder an area of an inch or more , ts almost hard to cut a piece small enough to not use too much on small repair jobs .
The pieces you have I would sell as solder , you could weigh them out and figure scrap price but as solder you could possibly get more if you have someone close by that does repair or fabrication as a hobby or small business.
Most solder is plumb so as to keep the repaired piece or newly fabricated piece at stamped karat or within the variance allowed.
But the odd one is for repair of gold filled and such so the Karat plumb isn't realy a factor.
When new , each sheet is usually 1 DWT Right now the 1DWT sheet 14k is about $58 and 10K is about $43 + shipping ,as scrap the 14k 1 DWT is worth about $51 then subtract shipping and refining charges you may get double as solder.

[beefsteak]

Double on the thanks, afloat. :)

I'm sure I'll be back with more questions. Hope I don't wear out my welcome. You're an awesome source of info. Good luck on locating the "N" trademark info. I print out stuff like this and put it into a D-ring binder for future reference.

I've been going to estate sales for many, many decades, but this is the first time I've run across this stuff. Would be nice to see it again. Might have to pay more if I do b/c of Celtic Rogue (http://gold-silver.us/forum/member.php?u=3549), gunDriller (http://gold-silver.us/forum/member.php?u=3401), madfranks (http://gold-silver.us/forum/member.php?u=3303), and zap (http://gold-silver.us/forum/member.php?u=3544) also hitting the same sales. LOL!

[still afloat]

Ok , researched a little more and found what you have is NOT plumb it is for repair use.

"Nobel Repair Solders are made from a old school classic recipe that jewelers have succesfully used at the repair bench for generations. Nobel solders are preferred by some because they are truly easier flowing than other solders-solders that contain no Cadmium. Nobel Repair Solders Contain Cadmium, a known cancer hazard. Fumes from this product are hazardous and should not be breathed.

This is a repair solder recommended for doing repairs on 14K yellow jewelry. As it is a repair solder, it is of a lower gold content than the metal it is recommended for use with. For manufacturing use, we recommend Plumb Gold Solders. Plumb Gold Solders are the same karat as the metal they are recommended for use with. "

[beefsteak]

Thanks, again, Afloat.

N=Nobel Repair Solders. Nice sleuthing!

I was checking out RioGrande and found their cadmium solders and non-cadmium solders' alloy charts. Sure made interesting reading.

I also read where people who are into refining are cautioned against breathing cadmium oxide, another nasty in a world of nasty oxidizing metals.

Nowl, I'm off to research Nobel Repair Solders to see if they are still in business.

When I read your prior helpful response, I recall watching a wire wrapper of semi-precious stones' craftsman solder his gold joints. I recall being fascinated that he put the piece of solder on the far side of the bale he was trying to solder closed. Then then he placed the lit torch on the near side of the joint and kind of "sucked the solder through the gap underneath the bale." Is that a pretty standard technique?

What did he dip that bale in to keep it from discoloring from the intense torch heat? I've always wondered about that. I recall it looks kind of scuzzy before he put the torch to it, and then he dipped it in something after he soldered it and the scuzzy stuff washed off or dissolved, I don't know which.

Interested in hearing your response to my observations of that wire-wrap fabricator's soldering technique.

[still afloat]

Ok , the stuff he dipped the bail in was a mixture of Boric Acid and Denatured Alcohol .You mix the 2 and then just dip the piece into it and set it on fire , it then creates a glaze that prevents fire scale and will keep you from damaging some stones.
To clean the piece when finished you dip it into a pickling solution which removes the flux/glaze and any fire scale .The pickling solution is a mixture of sulfuric acid or nitric acid and water .You can also use PH minus for a swimming pool as a pickle solution.
As a fun thing to do when we were in class , we did alot of pieces in copper to practice soldering. After several pieces were pickled we could take steel pieces , tools .etc and dip int the pickle solution and the copper that was suspended in the solution from pickling would then be plated on the steel .Several coats would then polish up nicely and provide some rust prevention.
So if you want you can play with a pickle solution , take an old crock pot add water , heat and add the ph minus slowly till it dissolves no more. then add some scrap copper pieces and leave it cooking for a few days , just keep watch on the level and add water if needed. after a few days dip some clean steel pieces in and play with plating. You use a pair of copper tongs to add and remove the pieces or just a hook on a copper wire .etc.
Next , yes when you solder you do not apply the flame directly to the solder , the solder is drawn toward the heat so you apply it behind the work or under it .When the flux is applied the solder will follow it when heated. You can take a piece of metal , apply flux it a line and place a solder snip on the end of the line and heat the piece .The solder will begin to melt , become fluid and then follow the heat along the line of flux as you draw the flame away from the starting point until there is no more solder to flow.It will flow flat , up or down in the same manner .
If you were wanting to solder two sheets of copper together in a L shape say two pieces 4 inches long you would set up the pieces and secure them in the L shape , flux the inside of the right angle apply the solder snips placing 1 snip about every 1/2 inch .Then begin heating the piece from the outside of the right angle which will melt the solder and cause it to flow toward the outside where the flame is and along the joint .It will flow to the second snip of solder and it will continue until the entire joint is bonded.

[beefsteak]

Thanks again, afloat!

I like your rainy day project for winter re: practice pickling some tools I've had soaking in apple cider vinegar (acetic acid). Learned that rust removal trick on Rick's Restoration show on HGTV. Now there's a cool show!!

Anyhow, after I've been partially focused on getting the rust off of tools (American made) I've been picking up from garage sales. Up to now, I've been coating them with silicon spray to try to protect them after the removal of rust treatment. Spray makes them feel slick. I think I'm going to try your pickling with copper method and see if I can't pick up on that. And I just may try my hand at soldering copper scrap. Always looking for something to do over winter in the workshop.

You had to go to class to learn this and you just gave me a free lesson. THANKS!

No more questions for now. But I'll probably think of some sooner or later. LOL PS...already thought of one. See next post pls.


beefsteak

[beefsteak]

afloat,
this flux material you talk about making a line with and placing a snip of solder at the end technique, is it powder or paste or come on rolls, in squeezable tubes or syringes or what?

I figure I can find a flux for soldering copper since plumbers do it all the time, but I figure jewelers working in copper use a jeweler's copper solder, right? Seems as if plumber's copper pipe flux makes a shiny silver streak and that wouldn't do for jewelers working for a solid color look, right?

So, if I decide to get brave and try my hand at soldering mom's old wedding ring the mortician had to cut the shank of to get it off her hand, where would I find that kind of flux you are talking about for gold?

Does it come in 18K white, and a different flux for 18K yellow and so forth? And if you have a referral / supplier suggestion, I'd appreciate it.

Don't worry, I'm not trying to give you any competition. LOL

[still afloat]

The flux I use , the same bottle since 1986 .Yes this goes a long way and lasts forever. The name has changed but still the same is available from http://www.riogrande.com/Product/My-T-Flux/504006?pos=2
It is a liquid , and can be put on with a small fine tip natural hair paint brush or I often use a wooden toothpick but mostly I use a regular syringe with a small needle tip , I cut off the point and lightly file it to open the hole from where it was cut off .
then just apply it to the area where you want the solder to flow .Remember the solder will flow and cover where the flux is applied so sparingly . touch the heat to the area and the liquid will turn to a glaze like .Take a sharpened steel wire dip it in your flux and touch it to your solder snip and it will pick it up .Place the snip on the metal and it will release from the wire and stick to the piece continue till all solder is placed then heat both pieces evenly from the back to melt the solder and draw it toward the torch .
Don't hold the torch on the piece too long and melt the metal itself.
You can buy copper solder , it is used mostly for cookware and such but most times just the plane silver solder is used .The solder joints should fit as tight and close as possible as it is not intended to fill gaps.That's why silver solder can be used as a tight joint will not show much or and solder line when finished.Also the solder and the metal combine so it blends in almost invisibly.
The flux is the same for all the hard solders , gold , silver , copper .Never use a lead based solder.
You can use white gold solder on yellow gold and the joint will not show but don't use yellow gold solder on white gold as it will show.
If you were in Ky I'd fix it for you or give you enough flux to last you for a year or two .
You can use the silver solder that plumbers use for copper , just hammer it flat and thinner so its about the same as the gold solder you have or it will be too much and look sloppy like around the pipe joints .
Plumbers go for fast and secure not looks so they use way too much solder and sloppy fluxing so it flows everywhere.
Not worried about competition , I just do word of mouth repairs and friends etc as well as a few custom pieces a year .
Worked as a actual bench jeweler for a few years till the owner drank away the business and nobody else wanted to hire a one armed jeweler that could set diamonds with his teeth so back to the basement at home LOL
I started out on my own with an antique book in high school , learned how to do steam casting , cast my first piece at 14yo , it was a copper seal , I used a plastic figure from a bubble gum machine.It was the seal from the old Dr. Do little tv series .My mother still has that one after 30 years.Steam casting is easy and fun for another winter project for you as well also if you are interested.

[beefsteak]

WOW! A retired bench jeweler. Impressive. Wish I was closer to KY. I'd like to shake your hand, and then sit a spell and visit and learn.

I bookmarked your RioGrande flux solution link. Thank you. I thought I saw the words on the bottle label something about "self-pickling" being a feature of that flux solution.
So, I'm confused. I thought flux was a before and during solder deal, and pickling was to remove the boric acid protective coating after the solder job was completed. Help me out here?

I'm all ears about steamcasting. Whatever you want to share about that is fine by me. I saw a person demonstrate steam casting at a lapidary show over 25 years ago. He used a tin-foil covered flower pot over an electric hotplate as his "oven." He made it look simple. But I suspect it's because they'd done it that way for 100s of times.

Thanks. I'm listening. :)

[still afloat]

ok , yes a little confusing .
You coat the work with the boric acid soution , that protects the piece from fire scale except for the area that the solder will flow on , the flux cleans that area for soldering and the self pickling feature helps prevent fire scale from that area . You still dip the piece into the pickle after soldering to remove the glaze and any other fire scale.Pickling leaves a thin layer of pure metal on the surface of the piece .Such as a sterling silver piece after pickling will have a thin layer of pure silver on the surface where the pickle solution removes the copper from the sterling .It will be a flat light gray color till you polish it.

Steam casting , I started out as simple and cheap as possible. Plumbers turbo torch , though you can use the small plumbers propane torches , disposable bottle type. to melt the metal and even to burn out the flask * the tube that holds the wax original in investment . Again a cheap version is to use plaster of paris. I used birthday candles as the sprues , the pieces that attach to the original wax / plastic piece and forms the tunnels that the metal will flow through to the cavity left after melting out the original.
The flower pot kiln he used is where that happens , some people will use old kilns , kitchen oven , even the gas grill outside.
For the flask I used and still use short pieces of exhaust pipe , free from any exhaust pro or other shop. about 3 or 4 inch tall pieces the diameter depends on the size of the wax pattern a quarter inch of investment around the wax is all thats needed so the smaller the better. When setup you can take a spoon and scrape a funnel shape into the investment on the end of the flask where the wax tube leads to the original , the funnel will be where the metal is melted later. place it in the kiln with the hole pointing down to melt out the wax , after all the wax stops dripping hour + turn it over and keep heating raising the temp up to as close to 1000 as possible the hole / funnel will be clean and a glowing red .You will then take a pre measured amount of metal , sterling is the easiest to start with . the metal should equal the volume of the original wax pattern , the wax sprues and about 1/3 of the v you carved into the flask.The v which is the button is important .
The metal is then added to the v and heated to melt , you will use borax , 20 muel team borax is mostly used to clean the metal while heating , just toss in a pinch on top of the melted metal and it will clean the scale off the top and leave a bright shinny dancing ball of silver.
Slightly out of order here , you will have a caster made beforehand , a metal salad dressing jar lid screwed to a short broom handle , with several layers of paper towels cut and packed into the lid .That will be soaking in a bucket of water .
Ok back to the dancing metal , it will stay in a ball and not flow into the cavity .Quickly as the torch is still heating the silver pass the caster through the flame and press and hold it on the flask , the steam formed will force the metal into the cavity .Hold it for a few seconds then remove , watch till the metal stops glowing red and turns a slight gray . With tongs you pick up the flask and dip it into the buket of water which will cause the investment to break free of the cast piece .You can drop the flask in the water , reach in and hold the flask or the cast piece while its in the water just dont pull it out too soon or you will get burned .As long as its under water its cool to the touch. it will cool pretty quick but still be careful .Dig around in the investment in the bottom of the water and find your casting . if all went well you are ready to file , sand and polish . if not start over , in the beginning its alot of luck and trial and error. But afete your first good casting you will be hooked.
Not to mention in a SHTF case you can cast pieces in brass , copper , bronze , silver heck even gold if needed to repair a firearm or other broken non replaceable parts.
Don't have a replacement trigger or hammer , carve one in wax and cast it , sure it might not be pretty or last forever but functional it would be.
That was the super simple, quick, steps left out at 12 PM version but it realy is simple in the end .
I'll look and see if I can find my original steps for you to make things simpler .

[beefsteak]

More to ruminate on, afloat. Thanks. I'm going to have to read that more than once about the steamcasting process. I think it's really terrific you started so young pursuing your interest in this venue.

One of the things that hangs me up is trying to learn casting so that I can make molds of the things I want to create. I've got RTV castaldo which I've never even taken out of the shipping box.

And I've got some Micro-Mark 2 part green stuff that is supposed to pull really terrific details off of what I'm wanting to start out casting.

I've got the brass opening deal to put into the mold when I make them so I can inject the wax. I like your birthday candle "tubes."

And I've got a mold puller so that I can cut the mold open like I've watched on private CDs from a silversmith teacher I've long ago lost track of. I never tried doing what he does, but I always liked listening to him talk on his website homemade vids.

It sure is fun talking about this stuff with you. This all is definitely on my 2012 bucket list!

You bet I'd like to read those "original steps" you talk about!! Looks like ZAP is interested, also.

You talked about setting stones with your teeth and having one arm. Were you kidding? I don't mean to be nosey, but how on earth did you learn to carve anything in wax if you had that for a challenge? Did you rig up a jig of some kind to be a holder so
you could carve wax?

Definitely looking forward here, afloat. Keep them coming!

[beefsteak]

PS. What is the difference between plaster of paris and investment powder besides the much higher cost of the latter? Dang that investment powder is expensive, and then to pay shipping on top of that? I'd rather run to the hardware store and buy me some plaster of paris if that will work.

[still afloat]

Nope not kidding about setting stones with my teeth and only one arm.
Had a motorcycle wreck while in school , screwed up my knee and lost use of my left arm.
Dr. told me I'd have to give up the ideal of jewelry work because you have to have 2 good hands for that.
After a time out to recover went back to the school to finish my major and was denied concessions to finish and was told to change majors. Had already lost 2 of their majors because the school dropped the program while I was in the process so wasted classes.
Anyway I was in a Art major with emiphsis on jewelry design and metal smithing.Well in that major I still had a few classes left in the art side and the school said I could not complete a sculpture class that required use of 2 hands to 1 hold a hammer and the second to hold a chisel to chip stone. So I left the school with no degree 1 arm and a public that had closed minds.
Back home and into the basement to prove them wrong. Started reading and experimenting till I figured out ways to do things with 1 arm .Funny thing I think the hardest thing to do even now for me is tying my shoes with 1 hand .I hate round shoe laces , flat are so much easier to tie but harder to find and new shoes don't use them anymore i think. I refuse to go velcro.
Clamps and vices are a blessing but there are times when setting stones that sure i can clamp a ring in a vice but the stone wont stay in place while I push the prongs over so , skip the clamp and hold the ring with my good hand after I cut the seat for the stone and place the stone in the ring I can use my teeth to bend the prongs while holding stones centered with my toung , yes alot of cleaning before, during and after .But once the prongs are over enough to hold the stones I can then finish up with normal methods in a clamp.Till I started with using my mouth I chased stones alot, push 1 prong the stone raised up on the other side so adjusted my method.
So with most of my knowledge in jewelry self taught , no degree , 1 arm I decided to go for a bench jewelers job that opened in a near by town just to see what they would say when I came in with 1 arm. SHOCK was the look on their face but still took me in the back to see the studio they were nice and all when they were letting me down .Bell rang from customer coming in so they excused themself to take care of the customer I see bench , box of repairs waiting , first in the box was a simple down sizing of a ring .So I went for it , sat down sized the ring polished it dropped it back in the bag in the finished box before the came back.They come back into the room and continue to tell me how they don't think it will work , bla bla bla .I thank them and begin to walk out , stop turned and told them the ring was in the finished box continued walking and before I made it to the door I had my first job that didn't leave me smelling like a french fri .
Things went well , went in early , stayed late to keep ahead of the repairs , bad mistake I wanted to Prove myself too much I guess so except for repairs that needed parts ordered the repair box was empty by the time I left each day. Paid a salary so my time was nothing to them they paid the same .But it made it look like there was not as many repairs as with their other repairman I replaced cause he was always behind.
They had a drinking hobby and forgot and set off the alarm alot while drinking in the store after hours and like the boy that cried wolf the alarm company and police responded too slow when it was a real break in and they never recovered and closed .Nothing else ever opened so back to the basement and word of mouth repairs , had several customers hunt me down from 20 miles away because they liked my work when I was at the store and it was so cool to watch me.Kids are the greatest when they watch me, they don't have preset opinions on who can and can't do things and are so interested.
Now the difference between investment and the plaster of paris is fibers in it and the investment is for high temps that the plaster cant handle
The actual burnout process is many hours at increasing temps , lower to melt out the wax then increasing to cure the investment and burn out the carbon and such left behind so the cavity will be clean .Then the temp is raised to casting temp so the metal does not cool too fast and not fill the cavity or get all the fine details .I do quick burn outs but at school we usually left things burning out over night so 12 hours or so .The plaster of paris will work for the flower pot type kiln but actual kilns and 1000+ temps it wont hold up .But great to start with.
Writing skills are not great here as you can see , I ramble and jump all over the subjects but now onto the wax carving.
The wax that is used for carving is actually almost a hard plastic and comes in tubes , wires , blocks .etc .When I carve I can still clamp it , heat the bottom of the block and it will stick to a plate on the bench when cooled , you can melt and build up sections you can use files , chisels , sand paper , drill it so if I make a mistake or something breaks in the vice just melt it back together and move on.

[beefsteak]

Afloat, what an amazing recount of an intrepid dauntless soul in the face of adversity. I'm plumb inspired. Thanks so much for sharing. Especially the part where you shared how you snagged that all important first bench jeweler repair position. That was quite a feat. PROUD TO KNOW YOU!

I'm trying to shift my priority gears now so that I can make sure I understand and find courage to try to begin "soldering practice" under your tutoring and encouragement. Sounds like the first thing I need to do is get ahold of some of that flux solution you use.

And the second thing I need to locate and purchase is one of those flat rectangle work surface "plates" I've seen others who ply their silversmithing craft work on top of. Since the high working temps are similar when working with both Ag and Au, I'm assuming there is some surface protection if I would acquire the right "block?" Whatever is it made out of? I think I've even seen folks stick pins in theirs if they are working with delicate filigree, correct?

Got a link for such a work surface as I'm trying to describe? Maybe I can get that right on my first order from that source, as well?

I'll be back with more steam casting questions. I'd like to ask them in order as best I can, so I'm hoping and checking back hoping somemore to find the orderly steps you referred to typing up in your initial posting.

Again, I am so impressed with your indomitable will to perservere. If you set stones with your teeth, you must have one mighty fine set of pearlies. LOL. And that means then you are spending time typing all this with one hand or are you using voice activated, speech recog s/w in this forum? I don't even know if that's possible? Is it, moderators?

Anyhow, I loved the idea of anchoring with heat those blocks of carving wax. GREAT workaround! Wax seems like a really forgiving media. Kind of excited to get started on that, too.

Let's keep this going, k? I think I'm probably your oldest groupie now. LOL


beefsteak

[still afloat]

Ok , going to try to get you going here on the cheap.
For the barrier flux * the flux to cover and protect the piece* a good homemade version is a 60/40 mix of boric acid and de-natured alcohol. The boric acid can be picked up at most any store , even the dollar stores as roach killer . Dip or brush on then set on fire.

Soldering flux
add 1/2 cup of borax to a mixing container. Borax can be bought at most department / grocery stores as 20 Mule team borax for laundry and cleaning green box I believe.
Next, you will add 1/4 cup of table salt and mix the two dry ingredients together . After mixed you will take a small jar , baby food jar is good and add some of the dry mix and add water to make it into a paste.

Use a small natural hair brush to apply to area to solder.
Use the flux as needed and place a lid on the container until you are ready to use it again if it drys out just add more water.The water just bonds the powder together for applying so the amount is by prefernce of you thick paste or thin it works the same .


For your pickle needs , find a crock pot large or small depending on the size of objects you will be working with .Yard sales or even new ones aren't that expensive. Use sodium bisulphate. This chemical is sold by jewelry supply houses under brand names Sparex and ProCraft Pickle. It is also found at swimming pool suppliers as pH Down. the mixture is not exact. Different jewelers like to use different strengths. Place about a tablespoon of the granules in about 1 1/2 to 2 cups of water and heat, but never heat to boiling.
The heat speeds up the reaction but can be used cold / room temp in just a plain glass bowl.Don't use the container for anything else afterward. You will just keep adding water to the mix as it evaporates keep the right volume. You can make holders for your work from stripped copper wire . Same with tongs just take a short piece of thick copper sheet or 1/4 inch copper pipe hammered flat and bent in center around a rod or something to make your tongs for picking up stuff from the pickle , again don't use steel or it will become copper plated.


For small jewelry soldering jobs you can use a pencil torch from most hardware stores or even Big Lots *cheap discount store around here , not sure if its in your area* Harbor freight sells them as well .Most are usually @ $10 or $15 dollars and you refill them with butane for lighters. They work perfect for small jobs , like ring sizing and chain repairs.

For your soldering plate I use the soft fire bricks , that way I can press the objects into the brick in most any angle or position and it will hold itself while soldering. You can also use pieces of the brick to protect parts while soldering and dissipate heat.
Like you mentioned you can press in pins , wires .etc to hold objects as well.

Well , after 20 + years of using my teeth they are starting to show some wear .LOL
The wife unit always gets on me because I carry stuff with my teeth to keep my hand free for opening doors .etc without sitting things down and picking them up again . Pick it up , carry it , sit it down , open door or gate pick it up , go through door or gate , sit it down , close gate or door , pick it back up .................... It kills her when I carry a 40lb bag of dog food in my teeth .I also hear the that's nasty , its dirty spill also. But I will say my immunity must be great because other than food poisoning I haven't been sick in almost 20 years. Grandparents use to say a little dirt on something from the garden won't hurt you and you wont be as sick either. Guess its true

Riogrande is where I order most stuff from now.

http://www.firemountaingems.com/ - free catalog

http://www.riogrande.com/virtual_catalog.aspx - download able catalog , hard copy catalog are $10 ea with $10 off a order .They use to send free catalog with your order so may still do that .Just not free with no order .

http://www.halsteadbead.com/Catalog-Requests.aspx - never ordered from them but free catalog for inspiration .

[beefsteak]

Funny you should mention Rio Grande catalog. I picked up an old one several years back. Amazing what's in the free box at estate sales, eh? I proceeded to carefully razorblade cut out all the findings section, and the video-tape/books/teaching sections, "against the day when..." Then 3-hole punched it and stuffed all into a 3 ring binder. Have since acquired a professional wax injector, the Castaldo, Micro-Mark stuff, etc.

I even picked up at a local garage sale one of the old waffle irons. I'd read somewhere where they could be used as a Castaldo rubber mold forming tool. Ever heard of that? Any coaching there?

Had occasion to take that down off the shelf about 9 months ago, and made hand notations with Sharpie pen what the range of the price of gold was based upon the date in the catalog's lower/footer margin. (Thank you, Kitco) Wanted to get an idea of values etc. WOW, have they gone up HUGE in pricing in those intervening years acc'd to a quick glance at the online catalog you just offered. I'm in shock.

Got to do some chores, but my mind is whirring. I'll be back for more. You have my word.

And THANKS!!!

[gunDriller]

i have the impression that Investment is more porous than Plaster of Paris - which helps air leave the mold cavity as metal enters it.

i have seen a working casting facility (production casting) that used Plaster of Paris - but they were casting aluminum.

i wonder if there are things that can be done with the Plaster of Paris mold, e.g. placing 'runners' (conical objects) in it, so that it has more surface area when it cures, possibly compensating its reduced porosity.


one of the things i like about Plaster of Paris is the Calcium & the Sulfur - both listed as secondary nutrients for plants, in between primary nutrients NPK & micro-nutrients. raising the prospect of putting used PoP molds on the compost pile - i like that idea.


"CaSO4·2H2O + Heat ? CaSO4·½H2O + 1½ H2O (released as steam).

When the dry plaster powder is mixed with water, it re-forms into gypsum."


about Investment -

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Kerr-Satin-Cast-20-Investment-33-lbs/70209933?pos=1

"This product contains a blend of crystalline silica."

the guy who taught me lost-wax casting, the centrifugal kind, used to smoke in the warehouse while our molds were in the kiln burning out the wax. he seemed completely impervious to the dust & smoke. i would always hold my breath around the investment.

the next time i went in their store, he had died of lung cancer. he was a great engineer, ran a rocket-engine-testing facility before opening up the jewelry supply shop.

[beefsteak]

Plumb tickled to see you chime in here, gunny. I seem to remember you mentioning silversmithing and lost wax sometime back, or at least I thought it was you. I'm going to study your contribs, as well. THANKS! Still practicing these skillsets in your "stacker days" now?

Two experienced "old" hands here on Gus, eh? What good fortune here for us all! Isn't afloat's personal triumphant account really something?!!! Sure looking forward to his commentary about the porosity of investment you brought up.

Yes, concious of silicosis, always. It's something for hobby prospector to be mindful of as well, if any of those folk are reading this thread..

[still afloat]

i have the impression that Investment is more porous than Plaster of Paris - which helps air leave the mold cavity as metal enters it.
Yes more porous , when I use the plaster of paris and sometimes depending on the piece I add thin short wax sprue rods to the wax figures to give extra room for the trapped gas even when using investment.I also have a roll of aspestos that they use to line the flasks with that let the gas escape more easily.
i have seen a working casting facility (production casting) that used Plaster of Paris - but they were casting aluminum.
Yes lower temp casting process and usually not as fine of detailing.
i wonder if there are things that can be done with the Plaster of Paris mold, e.g. placing 'runners' (conical objects) in it, so that it has more surface area when it cures, possibly compensating its reduced porosity.


one of the things i like about Plaster of Paris is the Calcium & the Sulfur - both listed as secondary nutrients for plants, in between primary nutrients NPK & micro-nutrients. raising the prospect of putting used PoP molds on the compost pile - i like that idea.


"CaSO4·2H2O + Heat ? CaSO4·½H2O + 1½ H2O (released as steam).
Formulas tell me I'm out of my league LOL

When the dry plaster powder is mixed with water, it re-forms into gypsum."


about Investment -

http://www.riogrande.com/Product/Kerr-Satin-Cast-20-Investment-33-lbs/70209933?pos=1

"This product contains a blend of crystalline silica."

I think it is now days termed hazardous and extra shipping charges apply.

the guy who taught me lost-wax casting, the centrifugal kind, used to smoke in the warehouse while our molds were in the kiln burning out the wax. he seemed completely impervious to the dust & smoke. i would always hold my breath around the investment.
I remember the cloud of dust from the investment when a class full of guys started dipping into a 100 lb barrel .Thats why I liked the studio being left unlocked at night . Spent alot of time alone in the schools studio doing all kinds of things. We had 1 guy that cast a real hummingbird , yes the instructor told him he could but had to lock all doors , do it over a long weekend when most people left the campus and had to stay in the building while the feathers burned out . Made several throwing knives while waiting on burn outs as well.
the next time i went in their store, he had died of lung cancer. he was a great engineer, ran a rocket-engine-testing facility before opening up the jewelry supply shop.

...

[Santa]

Wow! This has become a fantastic thread. Thank you all.

[still afloat]

Oh left out in the last post that you can get silica free casting investment.
Not sure of the quality of castings from it but would have to be better than plaster of paris with the higher burn out and casting range temps.

[beefsteak]

afloat,
have you ever tried to filter out of the bucket where you dissolve away the investment from the casting which then falls to the bottom, and all of it out of your exhaust pipe flask. The intent and purpose is to re-use investment and save some FRNs especially when one is learning, and trying to cut down on startup costs while the learning curve is so steep?

If I can find it in my old files from prior computers, I remember getting a "recipe" for mixing old with something that would combine and render the filtered out investment as a new usable casting investment mixture.

Do you have such cost saving workaround recipe?

If I can find it, will you take a look at it and give me your opinion?

Thanks.

[still afloat]

Actually I never even thought about trying to reuse the investment.I always figured that after it was burned out the heat would have altered it too much or made the fineness change * lumps .etc* to where fine details would be lost in the castings.
A problem that the exhaust pipe flasks that I use might be that the metal flakes from he excessive heat and drops off in the slurry in the bottom of the bucket.maybe a magnet would get some out but not sure. Perhaps if the stainless steel exhaust pipe was used it might hold up better but have not tried that either. Tried to get some from the scrap pile at exhaust pro and they told me they use the scrap short pieces for couplings to connect short pieces together so there is no waste in the stainless , that was years ago though so they might no be as frugal now.They said I could have all the regular pipe I wanted in the 6 inch and shorter lengths.
I know some companies send the slurry off for reclaiming precious metal flakes and such that are lost in casting.
I'm just not sure how you would filter out impurities without filtering out the investment as well not sure where you could find a screening system fine evough to keep out enough impurities and not get stopped up by the investment slurry.
Also the investment would harden as it re cured so you would have to have a way to take it back to a fine powder state without creating a dust storm.
I may be wrong , happened more that one time before but I just don't see a savings there.
Ok , wait perhaps if it was reclaimed and used to reinvest while it was still in a liquid state so when it hardened there was no need to create a dry powder.
Perhaps making a small scoop with a fine mesh to strain the larger pieces from the slurry and putting a valve at the bottom of the bucket to drain off the excess water after it settles and not disturb the investment .If it would bind and harden it may be possible to reuse it for thicker heavier pieces without very fine details.

[beefsteak]

Actually I never even thought about trying to reuse the investment.I always figured that after it was burned out the heat would have altered it too much or made the fineness change * lumps .etc* to where fine details would be lost in the castings.

I know some companies send the slurry off for reclaiming precious metal flakes and such that are lost in casting. I'm just not sure how you would filter out impurities without filtering out the investment as well not sure where you could find a screening system fine evough to keep out enough impurities and not get stopped up by the investment slurry.

...A problem that the exhaust pipe flasks that I use might be that the metal flakes from he excessive heat and drops off in the slurry in the bottom of the bucket.maybe a magnet would get some out but not sure. .
afloat,
here's the "go to" scholarly/pragmatic quicky education, for harvesting values lost in casting investment remaining in cleanout/sludge buckets. Your Q of screening media is also covered. If you need help locating that small mesh opening size type screens, give a shout. I have a contact that sells them in 12"x _____; or 18"x____; or 24"x ______cut and rolled sheets. Mails them out in shipping tubes. :)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/32011648/Gold-Recovery-From-Casting-Investment

It feels good to "give back" to you. Perhaps with the ideas contained in that .pdf, you and your creative mind can expand your word of mouth biz offerings to include being said middle man for a piece of the action. With your little black book of fellow tradespeople, coupled with the reality that more and more folks are going to look at trying to do this steam casting thing the higher the price of gold gets, well, you're creative and visionary! See what you can do with it if you take a mind.

The ferrous based flakes to wit you earlier refer as also being captured? If your neo-magnet doesn't grab them, then a simple wash in K-Mart's swimming pool cleaning acid (muriatic) will put those into solution, aka, greening it up as they dissolve.

The funnel filter media inserts are nothing more than doubled coffee filter media. Fold in half, and then fold in half again. Double folded, you now have a cone shape to insert into your funnel. Would suggest you create your own Buechner Funnel (some google searches leave out the first "e" as they don't spreche zie Deutsche ) as described on a YouTube: Check about the 2:58 mark.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3jjBv6968I


Doing so would help support the bottom of the filtering funnel which would be understandably heavy with the draining investment and multiple rinses using a lab squirt bottle. I've made them with milk bottle caps held in place with simple silicon rubber (household glue in a tube at the hardware store.)
I drilled the bottle caps with a moto-tool, scruffed up the inside of the funnel where the "Buechner shelf" sits, giving the glue something rough to adhere to. Being a bench jeweler, I KNOW you have a "moto-tool." I'm jealous because yours is way cooler than mine, which is a $18 pawnshop "find." LOL

Multiple rinses clean up not only the investment which has been subjected to the "dissolve the flakes" step described above, but also reduces the "attack" on the organic filters comprising your coffee filter media from the swimming pool acid. (Costs about $2 per gallon.) A simple evap station will remove most of the H2O rinse water volume from the collected acidic filtrate, and voila, you have strong soln. for the next batch. This works until the soln becomes saturated with the iron/or S/S flakes, and then you render soln inert and prepare for safe discard.

Look at it this way, perhaps. Every gram of harvested golden globules will yield you $53-ish of FRNs after you get through refining them. (More if you are doing your own alloys.) Not too shabby for a few hours of gravity filtration, after a magnetic removal step--that is if not total dissolving of ferrous flakes. Besides, with your skillset, recast them into beautiful ingots, and stack'em. Same true for silver in casting sludge. Just less FRNs.

You secure enough buckets of cast off investment, I'll come pan at YOUR house, regardless of you being in KY. LOL

[beefsteak]

New Question? Slightly veering to the right of Steamcasting 101...

When I've had occasion to visit bench-jeweler trades in the "diamond district" of other large cities in the past, seeking low cost professional repairs of my own garage sale finds, I then begin to add a pimping percentage for my time, travel and my vest pocket bank reimbursed by the small client list back when I was scrambling for every extra dime I could make back in the day.

When at the various shops, I've always observed at least one or more roller mills in the work area. What on earth are y'all doing with those roller mills? The one I have doesn't have any grooves in it for rolling round stock, or I guess that's what it's for.

Creating elongated cents? LOL

PS...almost didn't post this YTlink...didn't want to start GS'er run on the ones featured at 0:31 mark!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHBKVMUaeYA

[still afloat]

Thanks for the information on the filtering but back to your ideal of reusing the investment it , unless I missed it in the quick look over would be impossible due to the process described.I see a result of a solid for easy disposal in the trash after evaporation of the water from the resulting slurry after reclaiming of the metals.
Perhaps a reclaiming of the larger pieces with just screening and then reuse of the investment a second time before the extensive reclaiming process with the acid which reuse would be impossible.
I saw it on my first skim of the piece but can't find it now but saw something about the heat changing the properties of the silica and another part of the investment.
So not sure if that alone would prevent the reuse of first casting investment .Guess the only thing to do will be a trial so may have to do a casting this week.
As a side note , another area of reclaiming metals in the jewelry field is the filters from the polishing wheel systems .Yes the waste from polishing is bagged and shipped off to be refined and reclaimed . not sure what the return is / was when the owners sent ours off but they always saved the sweeps and the filter as well.
Polishing is a process of removing metal , it puts increasingly smaller scratches on the metal until the resulting surface is shinny.So the removed metal is caught in the filter , the polishing wheel and the polishing media that is captured in the polishing cabinet .
Bench sweeps from sawing and filing are saved as well .

[still afloat]

New Question? Slightly veering to the right of Steamcasting 101...

What on earth are y'all doing with those roller mills? The one I have doesn't have any grooves in it for rolling round stock, or I guess that's what it's for.

Creating elongated cents? LOL



My youngest daughter collects the "smashed pennies" they have electronic powered rolling mills at most tourist traps and zoos .You take your penny and 2 quarters put it in the coin slots and select your pattern of choice and then push the coin slide in which starts the mill rolling and seconds later out comes the smashed penny. She loves these things.Hint , the solid copper pennies are the best the zinc ones the copper flash spreads out leaving the zinc showing and deforms more than the copper as well so I try to keep some of the copper ones polished up for her to use . I have promised her we would go do the original smashed penny " place penny on train track , wait for train then hunt down the resulting good luck penny" LOL
oh the good ole days before tv addiction, computers and fear of sunlight.
The rolling mills are good for multiple reasons , yes you can get the ones to roll out wire stock with , then after rolling out the wire stock you move to the draw plates .Where you pull the stock through increasingly smaller holes to create the wire size you need , a short wire stock will turn out a realy long piece of thin gauge wire .Between every few passes you must heat and anneal the wire before continuing or it will become too brittle and break.
As for the flat mills , you can take bar stock and roll it into thin sheets inthe same way as the wire by annealing between rolling .
Another fun thng to do with the rolling mill is to add patterns to sheets by annealing the sheet placing a flat object on the metal and another sheet on that and rolling t through the mill.The pattern from the object is then impressed into the annealed sheet.
You can use things such as mesh or even leafs off of trees and the leaf pattern will be impressed into the metal.