.243 Calibre long gun research

[Glass]

I've been thinking about a long gun for a while now. I've been thinking of a .243 winchester. Wondering if anyone on here has experience with this calibre?

I have 2 options for licencing. Option 1 is an open licence which is basically permission to shoot from a farmer with 100+ acres of dirt. The open license allows for multiple firearms in different or same calibres. Option 2 is a club licence where a club sponsors me as a club shooter and I can obtain 1 or 2 firearms of suitable calibre to compete.

The club option (2) is ok as there are few around here although a bit of travel to get to a range. The right calibre could also be used on a property with permission. F class shooting gear would probably not be suitable for hunting. There are other disciplines like 3 position where you can use a production rifle.

Option 1 would be preferred because I wouldn't need to pay club fees etc and show up to club comp shoots.

That brings me to the calibre. Everyone in Aus goes .308 for a long gun. The thinking is that it's so hard to get firearms you just go with the big one first. Competitions are in .223 or .308 AFAIK. I am going to a range on Saturday for an intro and walkabout. I've been told those are the two calibres for comps there.

As for hunting a lot of guys I know go .308 first gun then add smaller calibres if they need them. Our game in the west is pretty small stuff. Mostly it's pest and vermin. That means it's cats, rabbits, foxes, dogs, hog, goats and maybe camels and razorbacks at the big end. I'm likely to shoot rabbits, foxes, dogs and maybe the odd hog. Occasionally a goat. Camels ... nope thats a permit job.

A .223 is going to dispatch all of those reasonably easily. Rabbits and cats will pretty much vaporise. Hogs up to dog size etc.

a .308 is going to do likewise but the smaller stuff is going to liquify and dogs/foxes are going to be pretty trashed.

Everyone says .308 is cheap as chips, which it might be but I still think it's more suitable for big stuff or range work. .223 looks cheaper but to me it still seems a bit light on if you encountered something like the 100+ kilo (200 pound) range charging hog. I've seen a few people unable to stop them outright with .223. Projectiles go from 55gn through to say 105gn.

So looking in the middle you can see .243 and .270 as reasonably popular calibres here in Aus. The .243 looks almost like the middle sibling for power factor, velocity and it also looks pretty flexible for projectile weights. You can shoot as low as 55gn and I think into the low 100's maybe around 115gn. Someone might have more data on that.

I don't think it's as popular by a long shot but it does look more flexible. I'm thinking over all cost per round, new and reload plus how much it costs to throw the bigger projecticles and the resultant effect on the game/animal. I'm also thinking that most of the targets are going to be smaller stuff on over night trips. The bigger stuff needs a bit more planning because you have to go out for 3 - 4 days on a hunt.

Popularity is a key point. In the US .223 and .308 are everywhere includng military and police so ammo should always be available, scrounging etc. Down here the military is mainly .308 . So .243 would exclude scrounging.

If I went .243 now, going .308 later might be an argument with the cops. I guess I could tell a "I didn't have enough firepower to stop that 400 pound pig charging me" story.

Anyways I hear .243 could cause faster wear on your barrel. Don't know how much of an internet myth this is.

Anyone got experience on any of the above?

[Dogman]

I have had several .243 rifles over the years and it is a good round. I am convinced that 6mm bullet does wear barrels, there are several schools of thought on the whys, needless to say I have always gotten rid of the .243 guns sooner or later and have not owned one for over 30 years.

I would go with the .308/7.62x51 at first if you really do not want to look at the .223/5.56 NATO round. With the .308 cartage you can always make your own .243 brass by necking down the .308 if at a later time you want to add a .243 gun to your battery.

So far as blowing up what you are shooting at that is more of a matter of shot placement, if you go for head shots you will blowup/mangle the head but the rest of the body/meat, should be left intact. But that rules out mounting a trophy head on your wall, if you are in to that sort of thing.

If you go with the .223 you will get a near 2 or 3, to 1 ratio, reloading the .223 compared to the .243 or .308 price wise, depending on local component costs, bullets/powder and primers.

I'm probably missing something, early morning and not enough caffeine in my ..yet!

[palani]

A .22 can kill a cow. The rounds are quite cheap and available and come in short, long rifle or magnum casings. Shorts are good for target pistol while magnums are fairly hot. A long rifle round can travel over a mile.

Another is the Hornady .17 HMR. Supposed to be a good varmit round.

The only problem I see with these light rounds is that crosswind might have more of an effect.

[chad]

i have a .17hmr. with no wind, it shoot s like a laser beam and when it hits, it's like little bomb going off. any wind at all and it is completely worthless.

[Glass]

I think a 22 has got to be in the list there somewhere. Learnt to shoot on one. Used it for vermin control, rabbits and foxes and animal husbandry. Placement is important. I learnt that the uncomfortable way. Going the farmers permission route a .22 might be the go first up if thats the type of country they have. Go the club route for the bigger stuff.

Appreciate the thoughts. I'm going to talk it around for a while. Going to the main range here soon. Pick some brains. I was talking with a friend about it. Turns out his Father runs a .243. Is missing by a wide margin. On going thing. That reminded me of the two different rates of twist for the .243 depending on which side of 100gns you are on. Anyway he's an experienced shooter from way back. He'll get it or get rid of it. And that gives me an idea.

This guy also runs a .17 and dispatches foxes easily. Whistles the foxes in. There's some interesting YT's on fox whistling.

[hoarder]

Many consider the .243 a reloaders round.

[Glass]

Many consider the .243 a reloaders round.

Do you mean for the challenge or cost? For retail costs .308 is about $1, .223 about .60, no price on .243 of that type.
Bulk buys on basic ammo 500+ sees bit better pricing.

Comparo (per 20 for 20/100/200):
.308 Federal 150gr nossler BT Vital Shock $44.75 $40.20 $38.05
.243 Federal 55gr nossler BT Vital Shock $38.30 $34.47 $32.55
.223 Federal 55gr nossler BT Vital Shock $33.75 $30.37 $28.69

I don't know this ammo. Just using 1st web price I find from reputable dealer.

Still working out reloading costs. Not the main consideration though. Interesting exercise.

[hoarder]

Many variables, barrel length, rate of twist, velocity, etc. have an effect on the size of groups in a given rifle with a given cartridge. These variables are wider with 243 than common cartridges like .308 and the .243 responds well to experimentation with different loads.
That said, one might purchase a 243 rifle and have unimpressive groups with factory ammo, yet improve dramatically with reloads.

[undgrd]

Get your reading glasses ready. First things first. Figure out the max effective range you will need. Next, have a look at all the charts and ballistic data you can find. This should get you started. I'm not going to bother hotlinking all the images because you'll really want to review the range, drop, and energy table for each load. Have fun!

.223 (http://gundata.org/blog/post/223-ballistics-chart/)
http://gundata.org/images/223-rem-ballistic-chart.png


.243 (http://gundata.org/blog/post/243-ballistics-chart/)
http://gundata.org/images/243-win-ballistics-chart.png


.308 (http://gundata.org/blog/post/308-ballistics-chart/)
http://gundata.org/images/308-win-ballistic-chart.png

[Gaillo]

I'm a huge fan of the .243, it's flat shooting and deadly cartridge with a lot to offer. However, as others have mentioned, it's a better cartridge to use if you reload, you won't find the huge factory ammo offerings for it that you will in say .308 or .223. While it's definitely more available in factory loads than many other cartridges, I've found through the years that most places that sell ammo typically only have one or two loads to choose from, and often only a few boxes on the shelves. As Dogman correctly points out, the .243 is definitely a barrel burner, in many cases you can expect only 2 or 3 thousand rounds before dramatic accuracy loss. This is due to the magnum-class overbore nature of the cartridge, I personally think they should have named it the .243 Win. Magnum when it was first released.

If you're approaching it from a "reloading mainly" perspective, I would STRONGLY suggest you look into the .260 Rem. as an alternative to the .243, it truly is the "cream of the crop" of the .308 case-based cartridges and beats the hell out of the .243 in retained energy at distance, but is pretty much a "reloading only" proposition. One other thing - the .260 is FAR easier on barrels, and has recoil roughly equivalent to the .243. If I could have only one bolt-gun cartridge to do everything, the .260 (or its ballistic twin, the 6.5x55 Swedish) is definitely what I'd choose.

[LuckyStrike]

Get your reading glasses ready. First things first. Figure out the max effective range you will need. Next, have a look at all the charts and ballistic data you can find. This should get you started. I'm not going to bother hotlinking all the images because you'll really want to review the range, drop, and energy table for each load. Have fun!


I'm a big fan of .308 but after seeing this chart it has totally reminded me why.

"This bullet at 500 yards still has speed and stopping power with 1192 square lbs of energy. In fact the .308 Winchester 165gr bullet is traveling faster at 1000 yards than the .223 or 7.62x39mm at just 500 yds."

and again reminded me why I think .223 is a pussy round

"So what does the charting of the .223 remingtons external ballistics tell us exactly? It says that at around the halfway point of 500 yards the bullet will have slowed to less than half of its original velocity, lost 1000 ft pounds of energy (now pushing just 207 lbs), and dropped due to gravitational forces some 64 some inches, and all of this in just a fraction of a second (.741 of a second). "

[Glass]

again great info. Thanks for the input.

hoarder. Ok thanks for clarifying that. Interesting thoughts there. I'll have a chat with this guy and see how much use his .243 has had.

ungrd, thanks I'm prepared to take the time on learning about the calibre comparisons.

Gaillo interesting comments on the 6mm. Do you have any experience on the 6.5 creedmoor? It sounds relatively new, although the reviews I have read might be dated. Sometimes there is no publish date on some reviews. It seems to get good feedback from people who use it. I haven't looked into it at all. Is it too far out there in terms of wide spread popularity/availability?

LS, this is one of the things I was considering. The power delivery over the range of the calibre. From watching people hunting mid size game say maybe 200+ pounds they really have to be up fairly close for .223 to be one shot effective. That concerned me a bit. It could be inexperience on their part but if I was dealing with big pigs I'd prefer a bit more distance between me and it.

Still it's going to be a best fit, not the perfect fit, what ever I decide. That's ok.

[horseshoe3]

I'm also a fan of the 6.5s. The Creedmoor is just another one of a group that will do just fine. It was supposedly designed for improved natural accuracy. I've never heard of a 6.5 that didn't give good accuracy with minimal load workup. If pressed, I would (and do) choose the 6.5x55 for several reasons.

First, it has a longer case which lets it use more powder if needed and seat a longer bullet. I won't fit in a short action, but it is a natural in a medium length Mauser action such as the Yugo 48. The Yugo action is not long enough for the .30-06 class, but will handle a 6.5x55 with a long bullet seated as far out as you want.

Second, it will beat velocities of the .260 Remington and the Creedmoor in any bullet weight. And the gap widens as they get into the heavier, more efficient bullets. American reloading data does not reflect this because they downgrade the cartridge since it was used in the 96 Mauser that can't handle modern pressures. The later cartridges were only chambered in modern rifles and therefore do not have this issue.

Third, it has an extremely long and consistent history of accuracy.

If you wan't to step up in performance while still using a 6.5, there is always the 6.5-.284, but you'd better have money for barrels.

[Gaillo]

I agree with horseshoe, the 6.5x55 has a lot going for it over the .260 Rem. However, the .260 Rem has one thing going for it that made it a complete shoe-in for my purposes, and that is that it's a .308 Win. parent-case cartridge. I can take pretty much any other .308 parent-case cartridge (.243 Win., 7mm-08, .308 Win.) and re-form it in reloading dies to .260 Rem. brass with hardly any extra trouble. Availability of .260 Rem. brass will never be a problem for me, as opposed to 6.5x55 brass - which is much rarer (and more expensive) than the .308 parent-case brass (at least here in the U.S.S.A). The very minor ballistic advantages of the 6.5x55 are FAR outweighed by this factor, at least in my mind and for my purposes.

[Glass]

Gaillo

This makes a lot of sense to me. In reading up on the .243 and seeing that is was same dia case as .308. I didn't know you can get a .243/.260 from the .308 cartridge.

So I need to look into this side of things as well. I'm aiming for maximum versatility if it's practicle.

[undgrd]

I would also look into the 300 BLK. At 500 yards, it delivers the same energy as the .243. It can be shot from a standard AR-15 platform and the only thing that needs to be changed is the barrel. You can even use the standard magazines.

Check out this site
http://300aacblackout.com/


Specifically these PDF files
http://300aacblackout.com/resources/300AACBlackout06OCT2010.pdf
http://300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf


PS: Just want to repeat...this decision rests largely on the necessary effective range.

http://cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/300_chart-tfb.png

[Glass]

Yesterday I spent about 6 hours at one of the local ranges here in the city. I was invited by someone I know through my work. This range is interesting because it's the first long range in the city so it's got a lot of history. Goes back to the early 1900's at least. I saw a lot of Shooting Club Championship team photos and they were from the 1920's. It was the original big bore range.

The range is shared with the SAS. They use it week days and the clubs use it on the weekends Saturday is the big bore and F class. Sunday is classic rifle which is bolt action military rifles/carbines. They shoot .303 there in classic rifle so that news was interesting to me.

So anyway I had a good intro lesson to range shooting before going onto the range. Met too many people to remember names. I also had a chance to talk to a lot of people about their guns. I met a couple of guys who are doing pistol, classic and F class. That was very useful. I also met a guy who has recently become a member, has passed the clubs are you enthusiatic enough wait period and is waiting the last couple of days to pickup his new Tikka T3 Varminter. He was so excited. I don't blame him one bit.

He had the same thoughts as me about getting something versatile. Something that can chuck small stuff at critters and also throw the larger stuff that might get him into the 900 yard range at the club. Now we had a long discussion because I was thinking exactly same line of thinking. I had shortlisted 2 guns. A Savage or the Tikka T3. So that was good. Detachable mags plays a part in that decision for both of us.

Now where I got confused was when he was talking about being able to chuck significantly different grain projecticles and I thought he was going to say .243 as his chambering but he was talking .223. He mentioned 80 grain projecticles from a .223 and I thought that would be pretty impressive. I don't know that anyone is shooting that kind of weight from a .223. In 6mm sure, but I don't know about .223. Anyway a group formed and a few times I heard 6.5 (don't know if that was creedmore or not). This was on a range where I was told they only shoot 2 cals, .308 or .223 so maybe that is not a rule based thing but a practice everyone just adopts. There's a lot of knowledge for .308 there so why not use that than step out into unchartered territory.

I'm going to have to research this some more.

First time shooting a .308 and literally the first time shooting a rifle in 30 years. F class you shoot 2 times. 10 rounds per time. 2 rounds are sighters. Best 8 rounds count. 300 yards. After my first round I had quite a few people sidle up to me wanting to know where I was shooting these days. Where I had learnt to shoot and that I had shot pretty well, good technique. Beginers luck said I. One guy was a bit suspect on that answer.

Anyway second time was a bit less successful but not by much. A perfect score is 120. Scored 110. It was very windy with a 3 oclock to 9 oclock breeze at about 10Mph on the first round but the second round the wind was much stronger but less consistent. It has swung around to about 5 oclock so was coming in over the left shoulder.

The guy who seemed a bit suspect had shot the same as me in the first round. He had a very impressive piece of kit. A tactical heavy barrel job. Same as used by UK snipers. Don't recall the name - Accuracy International (http://www.accuracyinternational.com/products.php) - the AX series. I think the thing weighed over 10kgs. He shot 5 better than me in the second round so I think he was happier at the end.

Because I was shooting someone elses gun, they pretty much sighted it in. It was easier for me. I actually watched the flags when they were shooting so I could see what the wind was doing when he bullseyed. Then I just waited till the flags showed the same kind of breeze and blamo.

I was amazed at the array of firearms there. Many didn't look much like guns. A lot of people were shooting open sights and were just nailing bull after bull. That was impressive. I think this is gonna hurt the bank balance for sure. A great day all told.

[undgrd]

So...did you decide on a rifle?

[Glass]

No I haven't decided as yet. Other things got in the way so it will be a couple months before I get back to it. I might get an opportunity to put the word on some one for a property permit during the holiday season. Might speed things up a bit. otherwise it's a club route. I don't think .243 would suit club shooting. I like .308 but it's overkill for smaller pests. I want to check out field rifle comps and see what they are shooting.

[undgrd]

I feel stupid for having not suggested this before. Take a look at the 22-250 round. The ballistics on it are better than 223. The bullet is 50gr as opposed to the 55gr 223. Look at the velocity of 22-250 vs 223. If I had to choose 1 round based solely on ballistics, it would be this. The cost of ammo and availability might be a deal breaker though...you'll need to research.

http://gundata.org/blog/post/22-250-ballistics-chart/
http://gundata.org/images/22-250-ballistics-chart.png



22-250 (Velocity and Energy at 200 yards) - 2925/1238
223 (Velocity and Energy at 200 yards) - 2326/929


22-250 (Velocity and Energy at 500 yards) - 1881/393
223 (Velocity and Energy at 500 yards) - 1189/207

[Libertarian_Guard]

I'm a big fan of .308 but after seeing this chart it has totally reminded me why.

"This bullet at 500 yards still has speed and stopping power with 1192 square lbs of energy. In fact the .308 Winchester 165gr bullet is traveling faster at 1000 yards than the .223 or 7.62x39mm at just 500 yds." "

From first hand experince I'll tell you that the .223 / 5.56 travels much, much faster than the 7.62x39mm. I shoot both, and when shooting at 200 - 250 yards the .223 strikes the backstop instantly, while there is a noticable lag in travel time with the 7.62X39mm. It's not a full second difference, but it might be close to a quater second difference.

[willie pete]

looks like 22-250 will cost you $1-$2 a round Vs .223/5.56 goes from about 40¢ a round, and on another note, I don't think I'd call the .223/5.56 a pussy round either, sure it's no .308, but it shoots extremely flat and has lots less recoil (giving you the ability to take 2nd adn third shots quickly) than does the .308 and did I add it'll fuck you up good? On a side note, it was what those 2 renegade feral negroes (the beltway snipers) were using and they shot and killed 10 people.......

[Glass]

good input from everyone. Thanks. The hard part is trying to find one option thats flexible enough to work in the field and on the range and be competitive.

The range I visited shoots .308 or .223 and that's it. It's not the only range or club out there but that was the one I was at on the day. I think .223 is ideal for the field. It works small to medium game. Medium is a goat or hog in my measure. Can it be competitive on the range. Where the range is currently it does struggle. It's a windy place and the .223 can get pushed around a bit out beyond 300yrds.

That was why the discussion about .308 which would be ideal for medium up to large game. Large being horse or camel or mother of hog. Ideal on the range and competitive.

There was the young bloke who was going for .223 with a different twist rate that is supposed to enable up to 80gn projecticles. I was dubious about this. I did a bit of digging and found some discussion about doing this. I'm not sure this doesn't put the .223 into the same barrel burning territory as the .240

Lots of people seem to like the .240 and there was a push to include it as a caliber on this range. Some people thought if you did it right with a Krieger (?) barrel there would be less problems with barrel life.

[undgrd]

Krieger makes fantastic barrels. They're not cheap.

In order to stabilize an 80gr 223 round, you'll need a twist rate of 1/7. 77gr is actually more common. It's not advisable to go below 50gr with a 1/7 twist because the jacket can actually separate.

[Dogman]

You get what you pay for!

6mm's are a good round but if loaded on the hot side and you shoot a hell of alot you/may will see barrel/throat erosion! I will admit that I have seen some awasum 6mm guns that can clean flys off a target at 400 yards or so! I have done it my self!

But for normal (I am not) and seeing they may or not shoot less than 100 rounds a year,

go for it!

Good round and loading possibility!