Should I have bought?

[osoab]

I have been looking for a 308 semi auto for awhile.

Went to a gun show today. Found a FN FNAR with the light fluted barrel for 1G. No optics and only one mag.

I was unfamiliar with the exact model so I passed.

I cannot afford a high end 308, but want something better than my Mosin.

Thoughts?

[old steel]

They have a reputation for being very accurate shooters although i don't own one personally.

Up here that same rife is around $2000.00 so it looks like a deal to me considering our dollar is worth more than the US greenback.

Extra magazines down there shouldn't be a problem but i don't know how many FN dealers there are.

I really like my Ar 10 but it was pricy, like my DPMS LR .308 too but it was well north of a grand.

Best bang for my buck was the M14 Norinco i have a couple at a little over $400.00 and they are a real good shooter but i don't think the US allows them to be imported.

Springfield M1A is a great gun but then again it's up there in price.

If you don't really need to shoot out to 1000 yards perhaps an AK would do osoab?

Ammo is cheaper and more plentiful.

[midnight rambler]

FN FNAR is not really a MBR, it's a wannabe MBR.

The Springfield Armory M1A is a reasonably good value. DYODD to find out what you need to do to it to get it where you want it. (e.g. get a Bassett scope mount)

[osoab]

FN FNAR is not really a MBR, it's a wannabe MBR.

The Springfield Armory M1A is a reasonably good value. DYODD to find out what you need to do to it to get it where you want it. (e.g. get a Bassett scope mount)

I wasn't really looking for a MBR. I have been looking for a new to me semi-auto rifle in 308 for a little while (+1 year).

Sub 1 moa out of the box. That's what I have read anyhow.

[midnight rambler]

If you're wanting the best value for 'out of the box sub moa' then I'd suggest spending less on the gun and more on the optics, e.g. get a bolt action for less, then put a decent scope on it. What's the point of semi-auto if you're intending to shoot sub moa? I don't doubt the FN FNAR shoots out of the box sub moa, however one can get say a Savage bolt gun which will shoot as well or possibly better for half the price.

First rule of thumb when considering a combat arm - reliability always trumps accuracy.

[Black Blade]

Bolt Action: A Savage 111 Hunter XP would probably be the best value although a Remmington 700 can occassionally be had for near that price.

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/0a1364761466d598c79ad958b2b0ddc5b16304c5_r.jpg

Savage 111 Hunter XP

Semi-Auto: A few possibilities:

1. FAL (Don't scream) - Century built some decent ones. The R1A1 was selling for about $700 and shoots about a good if not better than my DSA 58.

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/c3a1641ddbced9bfd7ca980b0d27f699220b36dd_r.jpg

Top - Century Arms Intl R1A1 Sporter model with Vortex 6-24x50 AO Mildot scope and Bottom - DSA SA58 model with S.U.I.T. Trilux scope.

2. M76 (Yes, a .308 version exists) - A little pricey but for an AK platform that is fairly accurate (mine is dead on accurate). Can be had from Assault Weapons of Ohio (AWO). Mitchell's imported some pre-bans that sell for around $2,000 and up on Gun Broker if you can even find them. The AWO are much less expensive.

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/9c136b92187ad749c03edd21bd25d8d4334fec8b_r.jpg http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/2723678d1f9cd604cecbdb3bb994d21ba327a064_r.jpg

M76 (8mm Mauser top first photo bottom second photo, 7.62x51/.308 bottom first photo top second photo)

3. PTR-91 (Essentially a US made HK-91) - Decent shooters and the new ones are more forgiving about the ammo used (brass, milsurp or steel). Aluminum milsurp magazines are about a buck or two each from Cheaper Than Dirt.

http://images.yuku.com/image/jpg/0ae360731be2dcc5c648d5f0b12bda2d421ac0dc_r.jpg

PTR-91 (top) and CETME (middle and bottom)

[skid]

[QUOTE=old steel;583217]

Best bang for my buck was the M14 Norinco i have a couple at a little over $400.00 and they are a real good shooter but i don't think the US allows them to be imported.

QUOTE]

I have a Norinco M14 and yes it is a good shooter.

[osoab]

Ok,

I hesitated and I am now still looking.

I found a Sprinfield SAR48 Match, with 1500rnds of ammo, a higerend leopold scope, with 12-20rnd mags for 4 grand.

The scope new is 1500-1800, the ammo could go as much as 1.00 a round (I don't know if it is reloadable brass), mags are 40-50 each.

So should I jump on this?

[midnight rambler]

ok,

i hesitated and i am now still looking.

I found a sprinfield sar48 match, with 1500rnds of ammo, a higerend leopold scope, with 12-20rnd mags for 4 grand.

The scope new is 1500-1800, the ammo could go as much as 1.00 a round (i don't know if it is reloadable brass), mags are 40-50 each.

So should i jump on this?

.....YES, absolutely.

Semi-autos aren't going to get much cheaper (if at all), and FAL mags are gonna be real hard to come by.

Seems like a deal to me.

Are the mags surplus or are they those Korean knock-offs?

[osoab]

.....YES, absolutely.

Semi-autos aren't going to get much cheaper (if at all), and FAL mags are gonna be real hard to come by.

Seems like a deal to me.

Are the mags surplus or are they those Korean knock-offs?

Here's the link rambler. I was heading to the bank to get the cash, when I realized it's a bank holiday. If everything works out, I will get it tomorrow.
(http://www.armslist.com/posts/876111/champaign-urbana-illinois-rifles-for-sale--springfield-sar-48-match--308---leupold-mark-4-lr-t---1500-rds-ammo-10mags) FS: Springfield SAR 48 match .308 - Leupold Mark 4 LR/t - 1500 rds ammo 10mags (http://www.armslist.com/posts/876111/champaign-urbana-illinois-rifles-for-sale--springfield-sar-48-match--308---leupold-mark-4-lr-t---1500-rds-ammo-10mags)

[midnight rambler]

Here's the link rambler. I was heading to the bank to get the cash, when I realized it's a bank holiday. If everything works out, I will get it tomorrow.
FS: Springfield SAR 48 match .308 - Leupold Mark 4 LR/t - 1500 rds ammo 10mags (http://www.armslist.com/posts/876111/champaign-urbana-illinois-rifles-for-sale--springfield-sar-48-match--308---leupold-mark-4-lr-t---1500-rds-ammo-10mags)

Be advised that the image in the above link is NOT(!) a Springfield Armory SAR-48! It is definitely some flavor of a L1A1 (an inch pattern rifle), quite possibly a Century Arms Int'l. gun - but no way of knowing without inspecting it to see who's stamp is on the receiver.

http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2013/01/18/876111_01_springfield_sar_48_match_308_l_640.jpg

Note that the rifle in the image has: 1) a slotted FH and not the combined device found on ALL SAR-48 rifles (SAR-4800 rifles often had a 'muzzle protector' screwed onto the barrel instead of a FH); 2) has the higher profile open ear front sight and the fold down rear sight; 3)has two vents on the side of the handguards instead of three as found on metric pattern rifles; 4) has the folding charging handle indicating an inch pattern rifle (folding charging handles were found on commercial FN Belgium metric rifles, but only the 50.63 para); 5) rifle in image has a L1A1 safety/selector; 6) profile of PG is inch pattern, not metric; 7) trigger guard is inch pattern, not metric.

Genuine SAR-48 (or SAR-4800, both metric pattern) rifles were imported as complete rifles from Imbel in Brasil by Springfield Armory Inc. IMO those Imbel FAL rifles are the absolute best value in a FAL as they are true mil-spec with forged receivers manufactured on FN equipment under license of FN.

I suggest you forget about this particular rifle since the seller can't even accurately describe it (or is intentionally misrepresenting). For future reference I strongly recommend you examine whatever you're intending to buy VERY closely, AFTER you've become familiar with what to look for (e.g. SAR-4800 rifles were imported with butthole stocks, and if a SAR-4800 has a PG and standard stock then it would necessarily have to have the appropriate number of 'made in the USA' parts on it for 922(r) compliance).

[osoab]

Thanks rambler.

I see what you are talking about now. I just emailed the guy for a pic of the stamp and if the gun had parts swapped onto it at some point in time.

The story I was given that is he bought it from a a guy who worked at a gun shop.

[midnight rambler]

if the gun had parts swapped onto it

Generally inch pattern parts and metric pattern parts are not interchangeable (although some can be).

The rifle in the photo is definitely a L1A1 rifle (probably more like a L1A1 parts set on someone's receiver since the only complete L1A1 rifles actually imported came from Australia, they were very few in number, and they now command thousands of dollars each as collector grade guns), I don't see any metric parts on it. Inch pattern front sight (open ears, high profile) = inch pattern gas block, therefore an inch pattern barrel.

Years ago there were some bare Imbel (metric) receivers which L1A1 parts kits were married up to. Note that once an inch pattern barrel is mounted up in a Imbel receiver from that point on only an inch pattern barrel can be used in it (and vice versa regarding a metric pattern barrel).

[osoab]

Generally inch pattern parts and metric pattern parts are not interchangeable (although some can be).

The rifle in the photo is definitely a L1A1 rifle, I don't see any metric parts on it.

Years ago there were some bare Imbel (metric) receivers which L1A1 parts kits were married up to. Note that once an inch pattern barrel is mounted up in a Imbel receiver from that point on only an inch pattern barrel can be used in it (and vice versa regarding a metric pattern barrel).


4350

I asked the seller to email me a pick of the SAR-48 stamp. This is what I got. Looks like the sling in the other pic.

[osoab]

from the seller



Here is the pic. There are 3 configurations of the springfield SAR. Mine is the original T48 style like an original belgian FAL. It has Maranyl inch type furniture, L1A1 flash hider, paratrooper fold down charging handle, sand cuts in the bolt (you can see the sand cuts in the pic) and an extended magazine latch. Here is a link to one just like it, but with wood furniture. http://www.armslist.com/posts/518620/savannah-georgia-rifles-for-sale--original-configuration-fal--springfield-t48-battle-rifle--civilian-
The heavy barrelled Israeli version looks different, and so does the STG58 version. This rifle is a legit springfield, not a parts gun. I understand your investigation.

[osoab]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whmX7e-cc44

[midnight rambler]

4350

I asked the seller to email me a pick of the SAR-48 stamp. This is what I got. Looks like the sling in the other pic.


from the seller

The seller is a moron. SAI imported bare receivers as well as complete rifles, and the bare receivers were stamped with the same markings as their completed rifles.


Mine is the original T48 style like an original belgian FAL.

lolololol BULLSHIT!!! Yes, the *original* T48 was indeed an inch pattern gun, however not a single one of those 100 or so examples were ever sold to the public since they were machineguns, and those few T48 FAL rifles built for evaluation purposes are very likely still held by the DOD. Anyone who tries to tell you that the T48 and the L1A1 are the same rifle are just ignorant of the history of the FAL. I used to own a signed Gun South Limited Edition (1 of 100) R. Blake Stevens' 3 Vol. hard copy of The History of the FAL Rifle - The Right Arm of the Free World.

This is a bona fide T48 FAL, note the original one piece wood handguard (I used to have an original T48 handguard, sold it for $200 and the guy who bought it was very grateful to get it at that price) as well as note that the high profile rear sight DOES NOT fold down like on the L1A1, also note the dust cover does not fully extend over the top of the BCG and there there is a stripper clip guide built into the dust cover -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/FN_Herstal_T48.jpg

Also, note that the change lever (safety/selector) as well as the charging knob on the T48 are identical to the METRIC pattern FALs and NOT the inch pattern L1A1s -

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/FN_Herstal_T48_Left.jpg


This rifle is a legit springfield, not a parts gun.

WRONG!!! Sand cuts in the bolt carrier as pictured were ONLY found on the L1A1. If it's not a parts gun, then WHY is the upper and dust cover a different color than the lower??

The subject gun IS(!) a parts gun!!! SAI *only* assembled Izzy FALO (surplus heavy barrel parts kits from new old stock parts) - SAI NEVER(!) assembled ANY other FAL parts sets onto their imported bare receivers - call them and ask them yourself if there are any doubts.

Also, I've NEVER seen complete L1A1 NOS parts sets while there have been TONS of Izzy FALO NOS parts sets (never, ever assembled) which were available and that is what SAI used to build their heavy barrel Izzy FALOs. There WERE *some* Izzy NOS standard weight barrel parts sets floating around 20 or more years ago, but those are long gone having been assembled into rifles. Within the last 7-8 years SARCO was still selling complete Izzy FALO front ends (everything in front of the receiver).

[osoab]

Thanks rambler. I really appreciate your knowledge.

Here's the numbers I am crunching. 10 mags current running @ 40-50 minimum. 1500rnds of 308 that is running between .80-1.50/rnd. Use a buck a round for rounding purposes. If the scope is real, then it is a 1500 frn scope.

So with the above I am looking at 3500 for just the ammo, scope and mags. The gun is almost a freebee @ 4000 for the total package.

I am still going to go look at it tomorrow. I didn't say buy. If the scope doesn't have the leopold numbers, well...

I just got off the phone with the guy. He doesn't seem like a complete idiot, just a guy that is in need of some cash.

I don't think taking a look will hurt.

[midnight rambler]

Be advised, if it has any marking on it which says 'Century Arms International' it could be a problem gun (since CAI has semi-trained monkeys assembling guns for them, and the only tools they seem to have are a hammer and screwdriver).

Do you know the difference between L1A1 magazines and metric magazines? Check the fit of each mag in the rifle if you're serious about getting it. The Korean mags came out after I dropped that platform so I'm not at all familiar with the Korean FAL mags. I suggest you sign up at the FALfiles forum and ask questions there - LOTS of RKIs there - Kit, the gman, Mills41 and J. Armstrong come to mind, all great guys

[osoab]

Be advised, if it has any marking on it which says 'Century Arms International' it could be a problem gun (since CAI has semi-trained monkeys assembling guns for them, and the only tools they seem to have are a hammer and screwdriver).

Do you know the difference between L1A1 magazines and metric magazines? Check the fit of each mag in the rifle if you're serious about getting it. The Korean mags came out after I dropped that platform so I'm not at all familiar with the Korean FAL mags. I suggest you sign up at the FALfiles forum and ask questions there - LOTS of RKIs there - Kit, the gman, Mills41 and J. Armstrong come to mind, all great guys

Thanks again rambler.

I'm still digging and looking for a rifle like his in the pick.

I just came across this thread. Same flash hider and trigger guard.
http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/classifieds-rifles/36391-fal-sar-48-match-price-reduced-must-sell-sold.html

I will definitely look for CAI marks. I will also check every mag.

Honestly, after talking to the guy on the phone, he seemed knowledgeable. He pulled up a multitude of different AK variants. He had sold his recently. He brought up a multiple different 308 ammo manufacturers that I just read up on a few days ago.

Then again, he could just be playing his born again christian card. (Yes he did mention this)

[osoab]

Hey rambler,


Check out this post. Wood stock is the difference. I am still digging.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3512923

About halfway down. I will link the pics and the story attached.


Springfield Armory Imbel SAR48 Match FALO;
http://i.imgur.com/DGAvi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/lsyKz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/cF8Ve.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/f8CVr.jpg
This one has a long story behind it and is actually my second Israeli Makleon/FALO type rifle. My first one i bought used from a man and woman who were having to sell off some of their guns because she was ill. Nice couple and he actually sent me the rifle to examine and test, without me putting a single dollar down on it. Thats a huge leap of faith and something rare in today's world. Of course i promptly paid him when i received the rifle. It was an Israeli heavy barrel kit built on a DSA Type I receiver. It came with a test cartridge and paperwork saying that DSA had assembled the upper and tested for headspace and all that. So it was a good build and worked great. Just as an aside, i sent those two a gift from Russia as i went over there a few months after we did the deal. So i had that one and a bit later my father found an FAL in a local paper. That rifle was this Springfield SAR48 Match. He bought it and kept it for a while, but ended up trading it in last year for something else; i think it was a SCAR 17s? Anyway, i didn't need two, so i found the DSA a good new home. This SAR48 Match is also a good shooter and has many original FN parts such as the front sight base. Its very similar to the FN FALO, except for the unique Israeli handguards and selector lever. The lever does rotate into the 3rd position, but it has been made into a second safety. Since this is a preban, it has no American made parts. The Makleon parts are a mix of original FN contract and IMI replacement. The Type III Imbel receiver is forged and i think looks very good on a heavy SAW type FAL. Its a beefier receiver than a Type I for sure.

[midnight rambler]

I just came across this thread. Same flash hider and trigger guard.
http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/cl...sell-sold.html (http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/classifieds-rifles/36391-fal-sar-48-match-price-reduced-must-sell-sold.html)

Nope, that's an Izzy FALO - FH looks similar but can't be the 'same' as Izzy FALs/FALOs were a metric rifle as well as that being a HB. Standard weight Izzy FALs had bare muzzles with a bayonet lug, the FH was built into the bayonet like on some of the T48s. Trigger guard not the same either, very subtle difference you can only pick up on when you've seen and hefted several in your own hands. I used to have up to six FALs at once including one Izzy FALO (one heavy ass rifle, definitely not something you wanna be humpin') and at one point three G series FALs (bona fide amnesty guns).

[midnight rambler]

Hey rambler,


Check out this post. Wood stock is the difference. I am still digging.


The wood stock with the flip-up buttplate (similar to the M14) was standard on the Izzy FALO. The standard weight Izzy FAL has a wooden buttstock with a simple stamped metal buttplate.

The Izzy HB in your last post is a very clean and nice example of the Izzy HB. Note the frame joint pin on that Izzy rifle, it was unique to the Izzy FALs, as was the magazine release and the forward assist charging handle. The Izzy bolt carriers also had sand cuts, but not at all like the L1A1s, you can only spot the sand cuts in an Izzy bolt carrier if you take it out of the receiver and know where to look for 'em.

[osoab]

Learned something new.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAwbMroi43E


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAwbMroi43E

[osoab]

rambler, I have no doubt that this is a parts build off of a springfield receiver unless it is just a "rare" one. Thanks again for insights.

Do you think this thing accepts metric or inch mags?

What is the value of the gun if it is the receiver with all else being L1a1?

[midnight rambler]

Do you think this thing accepts metric or inch mags?

What mags it will accept is determined by how the receiver is cut in the mag well. The Imbel/SAI receivers were cut for metric mags but can be relieved further to accept L1A1 mags (of course how well the mags lock into place on a modified Imbel/SAI receiver is contingent upon whether or not whomever modified it knew what they were doing). Metric mags *can* work in a receiver relieved for L1A1 mags, although they may be sloppy when locked in place. L1A1 mags *can* be modified to work in receivers cut strictly for metric mags (and mags modified in such a way - IF properly modified by someone competent to do so - are actually more robust than stock metric mags since the L1A1 mag has a beefy front lug rather than that tiny stamped sheet metal teat* sticking on on the metric mags)

*that weakness in the metric FAL mags is why one should have 12-15 or more spare metric mags per FAL rifle - at one point I had 225+ metric FAL mags for that reason


What is the value of the gun if it is the receiver with all else being L1a1?

Prior to 12/14 L1A1 parts guns were selling for 500-1,000, now it's what one is willing to pay. One good thing about the rifle you're looking at is that it has a mil-spec forged Imbel receiver, not one of the crap cast receivers floating around. The main thing is to avoid CAI guns, however some homebuilds can be problematic as well, you don't know that until you spend some time shooting it. Be advised that accuracy in FALs can vary wildly - one could have a FAL custom built by The Gunplumber with the best of the best in parts (new Imbel receiver with pristine Austrian StG58 parts set) which shoots >2MOA while someone with a CAI FAL assembled by semi-trained monkeys using a well worn parts kit shoots sub-MOA. As T. Mark Graham (aka The Gunplumber) said to me when I inquired about him building up a FAL for me: "I will not guarantee accuracy on any of my builds...it's strictly a crap shoot, you don't know what you'll end up with until you shoot it."

[osoab]

You thinking this has L1A1 parts on the receiver?

https://www.buymilsurp.com/british-l1a1-furniture-on-springfield-sar-48-match-p-5493.html
The above is an example with a Springfield Match receiver and L1A1 parts. Only difference is the wood furniture.

Do you know of any CAI marks that would be stamped on any of the other parts?

Thanks again rambler. You have been a great help.

[midnight rambler]

You thinking this has L1A1 parts on the receiver?

https://www.buymilsurp.com/british-l1a1-furniture-on-springfield-sar-48-match-p-5493.html
The above is an example with a Springfield Match receiver and L1A1 parts. Only difference is the wood furniture.

Do you know of any CAI marks that would be stamped on any of the other parts?

Thanks again rambler. You have been a great help.

That one is definitely all L1A1 parts on a SAI receiver - sights, FH, PG, charging handle, handguards, mag release, safety, etc.

[Black Blade]

Cool! I was looking at FAL rifles this morning as AR and AK firearms are selling at crazy prices. I have a couple FAL rifles but have been waiting to get another for a while now. But so far during this buying frenzy there are some FAL rifles still available.

[osoab]

Cool! I was looking at FAL rifles this morning as AR and AK firearms are selling at crazy prices. I have a couple FAL rifles but have been waiting to get another for a while now. But so far during this buying frenzy there are some FAL rifles still available.

What do you think of the possible transaction Black Blade?

Worth 4 grand?