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madfranks
31st October 2012, 04:50 PM
I read some of the news about Hurricane Sandy and in one of them some politician was threatening people who might be tempted to "price gouge" and raise the prices of their goods during this emergency. Now, having a decent background in Austrian economics, I immediately knew this was a bad idea, because not allowing prices to rise when demand rises, feeds bad information to the market, bad information that sometimes results in people dying. For example, take a convenience store owner who has a remaining stock of 25 bags of ice when the storm knocks out power to the whole city. He sees that since the power is out, demand for his ice is going to increase substantially because of the lack of refrigeration. Let's say a bag of ice runs $1.99.

So what happens if he's not allowed to raise his prices? Folks who have some hot dogs and veggies in the fridge they don't want to go bad are going to buy bags of ice to keep their food cold. $1.99 is cheap and they are willing to pay that low amount of money to keep their food cold. Within a half hour this store owner is out of ice after the first 5 or 10 people in line take every last bag of ice he has left. About 10 minutes later a man comes in who has medication that needs to be refrigerated but he's out of luck because the ice is all gone, and not just here, all over the city where the price of ice is now artificially undervalued, and the ice bins have been picked clean all over the city. This person, and all the other people who desperately need ice, are out of luck due to the policy of price fixing during emergencies. Additionally, the convenience store owner sees the huge risk he has to take to keep his store open during the storm and decides that $1.99 for a bag of ice doesn't provide enough profit to justify the risk involved to open and maintain his store during the hurricane, so he closes the store prematurely and nobody gets ice at all. In this scenario, those who casually want the ice get it over those who desperately need it, and the store owner has no incentive to keep his store open for those who may need his supplies.

So what happens if the vendor is allowed to adjust his prices due to supply and demand a.k.a. "price gouging"? Say he raises the price of his ice to $15 per bag in the face of the disaster. The folks who were going to buy ice to keep their hot dogs from spoiling are not going to buy it at that price. It's cheaper to let their food spoil than pay $45 for 3 bags of ice to keep their food cold until the power comes back on. The people who are desperate for ice to keep their medication chilled, while certainly not happy with paying so much, do it anyway because paying the $15 price is preferable to losing their medicine and suffering the complications. Seeing his ice supply dwindle, he raises it to $25, then to $50 as he has the last bag of ice in the neighborhood for sale. With the extra profit margin, he keeps the store open 24 hours because the profit for doing so makes it worth while. He sees that not very many people are willing to pay $50 for a bag of ice until a man comes in at 2am with a wife at home who fell and broke her arm and desperately needs a bag of ice to keep the swelling down. He gladly pays the $50 because he was desperate for ice and the vendor is awarded for braving the elements and keeping his store open. In this instance those who needed the ice the most get it, and the store owner has provided better service to his customers.

Anyway, I didn't mean for this post to be such a rant, but seriously, 99.9999% of people out there think that "price gouging" is a horrible thing that only greedy, selfish, evil people do, and it's such a noble and good thing to fix prices during emergencies so everyone has access to goods and services at the same price as before. These people are ignorant fools who don't realize that by supporting this system they are condemning people to unnecessary suffering and even death.

k-os
31st October 2012, 06:54 PM
Well, thanks to your rant, you have convinced me that price gouging could possibly save lives.

That is, until we move the subject from ice to say - plywood, or food, or medicine, or . . . well, I can't really think of another item that fits with your scenario (although I am sure they exist, my brain is just not hooking up with them).

At the risk of sounding like a Communist/Socialist . . . I only have so many FRNs and yeah, my house isn't as nice as another person's house (who presumably has more FRNs), but I still want to protect it. So, plywood at 15x the cost is completely unreasonable.

How about what price gouging would be good for is making people realize that they need to be more prepared for emergencies? We can't really stockpile ice, so I can't use that scenario, but food, water, medicine, plywood - prepping would apply.

Hillbilly
1st November 2012, 02:52 AM
Fuck price gougers, just sell it for what you have it priced for already on a first come first served basis then go home.

Neuro
1st November 2012, 03:30 AM
Well, thanks to your rant, you have convinced me that price gouging could possibly save lives.

That is, until we move the subject from ice to say - plywood, or food, or medicine, or . . . well, I can't really think of another item that fits with your scenario (although I am sure they exist, my brain is just not hooking up with them).

At the risk of sounding like a Communist/Socialist . . . I only have so many FRNs and yeah, my house isn't as nice as another person's house (who presumably has more FRNs), but I still want to protect it. So, plywood at 15x the cost is completely unreasonable.

How about what price gouging would be good for is making people realize that they need to be more prepared for emergencies? We can't really stockpile ice, so I can't use that scenario, but food, water, medicine, plywood - prepping would apply.Yes if you don't have a virtually limitless number of FRN's you'll do good to prepare yourself. I dont think anti-gouging policies has the chance of surviving for a long time in a serious emergency...

Ponce
1st November 2012, 03:50 AM
Be ready and you wont be sorry........so simple.

02:45 just got up and took 2 more pain pill........and I hate taking anything.........I have to protet this beautifull body at all cost hahhahahaahahah...........better take two more LOL.

vacuum
1st November 2012, 01:47 PM
I dont think anti-gouging policies has the chance of surviving for a long time in a serious emergency...

Here's the key.

Price gouging might be bad business in short-term disasters, because you might lose future customers if they don't like how you treated them.

However price gouging might be a good wake up call for people to prepare in advance. If there ever was a long-term emergency, prices will go to their natural level. Getting a small taste of what this feels like might cause people to learn important lessons about prepping.

Uncle Salty
1st November 2012, 02:10 PM
Fuck price gougers, just sell it for what you have it priced for already on a first come first served basis then go home.

Fuck that.

Hillbilly, Let's say you have lots of preps and a disaster happens and some government goons decide they want your stuff. They want all of it and will pay you what you paid for it? Is that fair? Hell no. It's your stuff and you should be able to make your own decision on whether or not you want to sell it and at what price.

Real simple concept.

DMac
1st November 2012, 02:12 PM
Fuck that.

Hillbilly, Let's say you have lots of preps and a disaster happens and some government goons decide they want your stuff. They want all of it and will pay you what you paid for it? Is that fair? Hell no. It's your stuff and you should be able to make your own decision on whether or not you want to sell it and at what price.

Real simple concept.

The foundation of a free market.

Neuro
1st November 2012, 02:16 PM
Here's the key.

Price gouging might be bad business in short-term disasters, because you might lose future customers if they don't like how you treated them.

However price gouging might be a good wake up call for people to prepare in advance. If there ever was a long-term emergency, prices will go to their natural level. Getting a small taste of what this feels like might cause people to learn important lessons about prepping.
Yes, I agree, with all your points. A recent example of price gouging, was when the Fukushima reactors blew up, the price of Iodine pills went through the roof... But I think most of it was people bidding it up on e-bay, the seller couldn't be held responsible for that, but certainly if you have a shop that is dependent on long term customer relations, you could cause much long term damage to yourself if you are seen as taking advantage and profiting of a disaster...

singular_me
1st November 2012, 02:20 PM
any gov policies aimed at "fixing" prices is eventually doomed...

however, price gouging has up and downsides... I reckon

Neuro
1st November 2012, 02:21 PM
Fuck that.

Hillbilly, Let's say you have lots of preps and a disaster happens and some government goons decide they want your stuff. They want all of it and will pay you what you paid for it? Is that fair? Hell no. It's your stuff and you should be able to make your own decision on whether or not you want to sell it and at what price.

Real simple concept.
Don't you ever think for a second that you could tell a government goon in a disaster, how much you think your stuff is worth, and how much they should pay you for it. They will probably shoot you on the spot! In fact you would be far more likely to be shot in this situation compared to if you are a looter.

mick silver
1st November 2012, 02:26 PM
last time the power went out for us , it was out for over a week . we let the ice melt because you have to fight with fools over it , no thank you . plus there no police around when you need them . so it best to lock up the store an no one gets hurt . but if it your you should be able to sale it for what you want

madfranks
26th November 2012, 08:45 AM
In Praise of Price Gouging

by Ron Paul (http://lewrockwell.com/paul/paul828.html)


As the northeastern United States continues to recover from Hurricane Sandy, we hear the usual outcry against individuals and companies who dare to charge market prices for goods such as gasoline. The normal market response of rising prices in the wake of a natural disaster and resulting supply disruptions is redefined as “price gouging.” The government claims that price gouging is the charging of ruinous or exploitative prices for goods in short supply in the wake of a disaster and is a heinous crime. But does this reflect economic reality, or merely political posturing to capitalize on raw emotions?

In the wake of Hurricane Sandy, the supply of gasoline was greatly disrupted. Many gas stations were unable to pump gas due to a lack of electricity, thus greatly reducing the supply. At the same time demand for gasoline spiked due to the widespread use of generators. Because gas stations were forbidden from raising their prices to meet the increased demand, miles-long lines developed and stations were forced to start limiting the amount of gasoline that individuals could purchase. New Jersey gas stations began to look like Soviet grocery stores.

Had gas stations been allowed to raise their prices to reflect the increased demand for gasoline, only those most in need of gasoline would have purchased gas, while everyone would have economized on their existing supply. But because prices remained lower than they should have been, no one sought to conserve gas. Low prices signaled that gas was in abundant supply, while reality was exactly the opposite, and only those fortunate enough to be at the front of gas lines were able to purchase gas before it sold out. Not surprisingly, a thriving black market developed, with gas offered for up to $20 per gallon.

With price controls in effect, supply shortages were exacerbated. If prices had been allowed to increase to market levels, the profit opportunity would have brought in new supplies from outside the region. As supplies increased, prices gradually would have decreased as supply and demand returned to equilibrium. But with price controls in effect, what company would want to deal with the hassle of shipping gas to a disaster-stricken area with downed power lines and flooded highways when the same profit could be made elsewhere? So instead of gas shipments flooding into the disaster zones, what little gas supply is left is rapidly sold and consumed.

Governments fail to understand that prices are not just random numbers. Prices perform an important role in providing information, coordinating supply and demand, and enabling economic calculation. When government interferes with the price mechanism, economic calamity ensues. Price controls on gasoline led to the infamous gas lines of the 1970s, yet politicians today repeat those same failed mistakes. Instituting price caps at a below-market price will always lead to shortages. No act of any legislature can reverse the laws of supply and demand.

History shows us that the quickest path to economic recovery is to abolish all price controls. If governments really want to aid recovery, they would abolish their “price-gouging” legislation and allow the free market to function.