Perspectives On Creditors & Debtors

[palani]

In case it skipped anyone's attention .. this video series gives a fairly good background of the creditor/debtor state of affairs.

http://www.creditorsincommerce.com/videos-watch.php

[Hatha Sunahara]

I liked the joke about Alternative Reality Disorder. I don't know anyone who has done an Accepted For Value redemption.

Better to be a sovereign creditor than a debtor slave. I couldn't agree more. Are TPTB recruiting a new wave of Creditors to replace the current bunch in charge because they can see where their Alternative Reality Disorder is leading us all? Are they looking for more responsible creditors? Just wondering.


Hatha

[Glass]

I haven't watched this one yet. I have seen a lot of his stuff and it is good but, I think this guy and a couple others got some bad court time for doing tax returns or something. Have now undertaken not to do tax returns for other people. I think this is the same dude. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

I have seen a couple people do A4V and it has worked. I know a guy who has done several. 1 was $28K and the other was a bit more from memory. These were both processed and the debts confirmed as cleared.

Now here's the thing, it hasn't always worked and we have been trying to work out which bit or method is working and which is not. The guy has had maybe a half dozen successes but also at least that many came back. He didn't really keep track of which methods he was using on which claim in the begining so we weren't getting anywhere.

Now we think this might be what is going on. This guy is from NZ and he gets claims from NZ outfits - Govt mostly. Internal Revenue and other Govt depts. He is living in Oz and also gets stuff from outfits here, both Govt and commercial.

All of the NZ stuff worked. Some took 2 months but they ALL worked. So some $50+K dealt with in this way. The stuff from Oz has been a bit iffy. Some of the commercial stuff worked. CC claims (some but not all). Some of the police stuff worked, about 50/50 but none of the Govt stuff worked like tax office stuff. Those all came back.

So now the Aust govt stuff has been sent to the NZ treasury and we are waiting to see if they settle it with the Aust Govt.

The other interesting thing was this guy got an unexpected tax credit for $28K at some point. Still trying to work out how but the tax office gave him several unexplained credits to his account totaling ~$28K

[palani]

I agree with the guys statements concerning honor and dishonor. He has some interesting concepts relating to the bible and its commercial methods. The bit about Cain and Abel was one I had not heard before and gives a different slant from just a sibling rivalry gone bad.

As to whether you need to see yourself as a creditor or debtor ... I have my doubts that these are the only two options. Consider the two statuses to be different planes. Then consider honor and dishonor to be two separate planes as well. If you consent to be governed by money then you are either going to be in the creditor or debtor planes and further separated into the solvent, insolvent or bankrupt categories of these planes. The honor and dishonor planes relate to a somewhat higher dimension called "contract". Quite possible the creditor and debtor plane also fall into this "contract" dimension as well. Don't engage in contracts for money and stay in honor and none of these societal schizoid rules and benefits will come down to haunt you.

[Hatha Sunahara]

"Don't engage in contracts for money..."

Does this mean don't be a debtor?

Doesn't it all boils down to whether you owe or are owed? A debtor or a creditor? Is there another class of people? If you want friends, don't lend them money. And if you need something very expensive, save up a reserve of cash so you can avoid going into debt. Debt is slavery. Free men are debt free. All the schitzo rules and benefits are for the debtors.

Whatever planes you divide our consciousness into, it will not change the fact that humanity will be divided into the haves and the have-nots. Is there any honor in owning slaves? Even people in voluntary servitude? Does honor have a moral aspect? Can you be a usurer and still be in honor? Can one be an honorable swindler?


Hatha

[Ponce]

The best way to don't worried about debts is to have none.........

Ponce <----------sitting on the back deck and drinking a Coke while listening to elevator music.

[Uncle Salty]

Palani,

So is their website a good resource of information? Is their purple membership worth studying? Are they teaching good stuff?

What they seem to be saying is be a creditor and use your straw man to live in debtor's world.

[palani]

"Don't engage in contracts for money..."

Does this mean don't be a debtor? Money is a commercial plane controlled by the FED. I am suggesting that it is possible to avoid this plane entirely.


Doesn't it all boils down to whether you owe or are owed? Rather what plane you find yourself in. You will be "owned" by the plane whose rules you follow as these are the laws you must obey. It seems pretty clear that you will be capable of owning nothing in the commercial plane because these things you do consider yourself owning may be taken away.


A debtor or a creditor? These are commercial phrases and if you consider yourself of either type you are in that plane.


Is there another class of people? Ask yourself if there are people who do not play by commercial rules. The Icelanders seem to be moving down this path yet I am pretty sure they are still commercially oriented just not IMF ruled. Communities have set up a system of coupons as well yet this just boils down to a more sophisticated system of barter. Tribal systems remotely located might be the only systems that entirely avoid commercial concepts.


Debt is slavery. Free men are debt free. All the schitzo rules and benefits are for the debtors. Ownership comes with slavery.


Whatever planes you divide our consciousness into, it will not change the fact that humanity will be divided into the haves and the have-nots. Or the division might be between the delusional and aware.


Is there any honor in owning slaves? Even people in voluntary servitude? Owning anything places you in a commercial plane and honor is associated with keeping your contracts. Slaves are incapable of contract. There might be some honor connected with manumission of a slave if you find yourself so burdened. People in voluntary servitude are free to end that servitude themselves at any time.


Does honor have a moral aspect? In the commercial plane honor has only to do with completing tasks you said you will complete. In other planes honor has to do with showing respect. You have to be aware of the plane you are in to apply a context to the word. Words change meanings depending upon the context they are presented in.


Can you be a usurer and still be in honor? Within the meaning of the word in that plane and without considering other planes, yes. If you have other affiliations though you could be dishonoring those contracts.


Can one be an honorable swindler? Such an actor (if he existed) might believe he can repay an IOU with another IOU. Can one be a moral child molester? In the context of time he might be moral on Sunday and a child molester for the other 6 days. This is also called a hypocrite.

[palani]

Palani,

So is their website a good resource of information? Is their purple membership worth studying? Are they teaching good stuff?

What they seem to be saying is be a creditor and use your straw man to live in debtor's world.

These folks are selling a product. They have some decent seminars and give away MP3s and free videos but their 3 day seminar this weekend costs $550. They also have a 6 month course on mastery in commerce that commands quite a few FRNs.

My question is if they are promoting learning the rules of the commercial plane then why cannot you use their product to pay for the seminar? If the payment is the signature (promise to pay) then give them a signature and attend their seminar with no other payment.

Learn what you can from them but beware of using their techniques. Act in haste and repent at leisure. With the commercial plane leisure time is a benefit that comes with three hots and a cot.

[Hatha Sunahara]

Money is a commercial plane controlled by the FED. I am suggesting that it is possible to avoid this plane entirely.



Not so easy for westerners; even harder for Americans. You would have to live in an ashram or a commune, or some kind of spiritual enclave. Is my imagination too limited? To avoid the commercial plane entirely, you would have to disconnect with the secular society you live in. Your life would be like that of Jesus Christ. You might avoid crucifixion if you avoided offending those who control the commercial plane. Yours would be the life of a monk. You would need to be protected by an administrative structure that shielded you from the empire builders in the commercial plane. You could not disconnect from the secular society on your own. You would need to belong to a group to do it. That group would be considered a 'cult' because it eschews mainstream thinking. SAort of like what David Koresh did, or Jim Jones in Guyana. And your group would be inflitrated by the FBI, CIA, NSA, and all sorts of other paranoid guardians of the status quo.

Perhaps you need to think of the commercial plane as something that you need to engage in to sustain your material body, but that your mind should not be dominated by it--you should live in an Alternative Reality, and to hell with what other people think about your sanity?


Hatha

[Uncle Salty]

My question is if they are promoting learning the rules of the commercial plane then why cannot you use their product to pay for the seminar? If the payment is the signature (promise to pay) then give them a signature and attend their seminar with no other payment.

From what I have seen, their philosophy is that if you want to live within general society, FRN's are a must. FRN's are the lubrication of plane B. But just because you live most of your life in plane B with other plane B occupants, that does not preclude you from having a plane A reality as well. Sort of a when in Rome, do as the Romans.

There is no need to have an adversarial relationship with plane B, no need to not participate in plane B activities, and no need to reject the plane B reality.

[palani]

Not so easy for westerners; even harder for Americans. You would have to live in an ashram.
Words are symbols only. Your perspective is that you are in California because you know where California is on the map and you know you are there. However California is a body politic and, while you might be geographically within the territory claimed by the government of that body politic that does not necessarily mean you are within the body politic. You might be just visiting. So are you in California or not? You might use the word in one context while your listener interprets your affirmation in an entirely different context.

So how does this apply to the commercial plane? Are you in it or not? How does one tell whether one is in the commercial plane or not? Is it by adhering to the policies of that plane, by possession of a single FRN, by a statement that one is there for commercial reasons? Can you be in that plane as an agent of another or as a principal? Congress tells us that FRNs are ONLY for banks or their agents. Are you a bank? Are you an agent?


Perhaps you need to think of the commercial plane as something that you need to engage in to sustain your material body, but that your mind should not be dominated by it--you should live in an Alternative Reality, and to hell with what other people think about your sanity?

Perhaps the answer is to use camouflage when engaged in activities in the commercial plane. Fictional planes are like fictional money. Perhaps only fictional people (corporations) should handle colorable money? When Dorothy visited Oz did she ever leave Kansas? Or did she just dream that she left Kansas?

[Uncle Salty]

Money is a commercial plane controlled by the FED. I am suggesting that it is possible to avoid this plane entirely.



Let me ask you this Palani. How exactly do you live without FRN's? How do you buy gasoline for your car? Food for your table? Clothes for your body?

And this is the fundamental assumption of disagreement. You really think you can avoid this plane altogether? Why? The whole friggin planet is basically this plane. And you want to avoid it? Never use any FRN's. That seems to be coming from a place of scarcity and judgment.

If I never used FRN's, my world becomes real small. Sorry, but small doesn't work for me. FRN's are just a vehicle, not good or bad. You can be in the FRN world but not of it. Hmmm. Who said something like that?

[palani]

There is no need to have an adversarial relationship with plane B, no need to not participate in plane B activities, and no need to reject the plane B reality.

Similar to attending a cannibal banquet? It's ok to chew but don't swallow? Or a Bill Clinton college party? Ok to smoke but don't inhale?

[Uncle Salty]

Not so easy for westerners; even harder for Americans. You would have to live in an ashram or a commune, or some kind of spiritual enclave. Is my imagination too limited? To avoid the commercial plane entirely, you would have to disconnect with the secular society you live in. Your life would be like that of Jesus Christ. You might avoid crucifixion if you avoided offending those who control the commercial plane. Yours would be the life of a monk. You would need to be protected by an administrative structure that shielded you from the empire builders in the commercial plane. You could not disconnect from the secular society on your own. You would need to belong to a group to do it. That group would be considered a 'cult' because it eschews mainstream thinking. SAort of like what David Koresh did, or Jim Jones in Guyana. And your group would be inflitrated by the FBI, CIA, NSA, and all sorts of other paranoid guardians of the status quo.

Perhaps you need to think of the commercial plane as something that you need to engage in to sustain your material body, but that your mind should not be dominated by it--you should live in an Alternative Reality, and to hell with what other people think about your sanity?


Hatha

Exactly. Trying to live without FRN's in today's world is just mental masturbation. Look at me! I am way better than everyone else because I don't use FRN's. Mmmmm. I feel so good right now being better than all of you.

[palani]

Let me ask you this Palani. How exactly do you live without FRN's? How do you buy gasoline for your car? Food for your table? Clothes for your body? I have no car. I was raised on garden produce. I'm not really good at making clothes so I let others provide them.


And this is the fundamental assumption of disagreement. You really think you can avoid this plane altogether? Why? The whole friggin planet is basically this plane. And you want to avoid it? Never use any FRN's. That seems to be coming from a place of scarcity and judgment. I agree that the monetary system entirely covers the world but then that is just the road most easily traveled. The view becomes more interesting when you wander off the trail.


If I never used FRN's, my world becomes real small. Sorry, but small doesn't work for me. FRN's are just a vehicle, not good or bad. You can be in the FRN world but not of it. Hmmm. Who said something like that? FRNs are not a historical rem. They have only been out there 99 years. Are you saying 98% of the recordable history of mankind is intolerable because a FRN never existed during much of it?

[palani]

Exactly. Trying to live without FRN's in today's world is just mental masturbation. Look at me! I am way better than everyone else because I don't use FRN's. Mmmmm. I feel so good right now being better than all of you.

Think of 350 million Americans each attempting to get the best of the other and all of them being enslaved in the process. Is your goal to overcome or to lie, cheat and steal if you can get an advantage out of it? The commercial plane is communistic and there is no private property in this plane. You are kidding yourself if you believe you are getting ahead.

[Uncle Salty]

FRNs are not a historical rem. They have only been out there 99 years. Are you saying 98% of the recordable history of mankind is intolerable because a FRN never existed during much of it?

The internet is not a historical norm either. As a matter of fact, one cannot use the internet without embracing the FRN system. Somewhere, somehow, FRN's were used to allow you to use the internet. So, you have embraced the FRN world, but that is okay and not cannibalism. You don't have a car, but you use a computer and internet and that is all good, but god forbid you use FRN's.

Hypocrisy. You reject FRN's when it serves your philosophy, but embrace the benefits of that system when it serves you while you cling to your judgment of the system you think you are rejecting, but at the end of the day, you are as much a slave as everyone else that uses FRN's.

Seriously, how can you claim to be above the whole FRN slave system yet use the greatest invention of that system on a daily basis and still claim you are not of that system?

Ha ha ha.

[Uncle Salty]

Think of 350 million Americans each attempting to get the best of the other and all of them being enslaved in the process. Is your goal to overcome or to lie, cheat and steal if you can get an advantage out of it? The commercial plane is communistic and there is no private property in this plane. You are kidding yourself if you believe you are getting ahead.

See, this is where we differ. I don't see 350 million trying to get the best of the other. What a dark place you must be in if that is what you see. I see lots of people trying to do good and be good. Yep. a lot are ignorant. So, be a teacher and try to elevate. Be good and be an example.

As for getting ahead. There is only one way to get ahead...and that is spiritual evolution. And spiritual evolution can be achieved in any economic system, under any law, under any ruler, good or bad. Attachment to petty laws and boundaries and economic systems is beyond the realm of true enlightenment. I can get ahead regardless of man's rules.

[palani]

The internet is not a historical norm either. As a matter of fact, one cannot use the internet without embracing the FRN system. Corporations don't exist without people to perform their actions. That doesn't make a man or woman a corporation because they choose to work for a corporation and embrace fictional constructs.


Somewhere, somehow, FRN's were used to allow you to use the internet. Scratch too deeply into any plane and you will find CONTRACT



So, you have embraced the FRN world, but that is okay and not cannibalism. You don't have a car, but you use a computer and internet and that is all good, but god forbid you use FRN's. No. That would be Congress in their 12 USC 411 that forbids me to use a FRN.


Hypocrisy. You reject FRN's when it serves your philosophy, but embrace the benefits of that system when it serves you while you cling to your judgment of the system you think you are rejecting, but at the end of the day, you are as much a slave as everyone else that uses FRN's. There are no benefits of being in the commercial plane other than the ability to take bankruptcy when it so suits you. Do you prefer slavery or irresponsibility as these are the only two choices permitted in the commercial plane.


Seriously, how can you claim to be above the whole FRN slave system yet use the greatest invention of that system on a daily basis and still claim you are not of that system? I invented the internet. Seriously.

[palani]

I can get ahead regardless of man's rules.

In the plane you find yourself in you must sign under penalty of perjury. How do you live with yourself?

[Hatha Sunahara]

Perhaps the answer is to use camouflage when engaged in activities in the commercial plane. Fictional planes are like fictional money. Perhaps only fictional people (corporations) should handle colorable money? When Dorothy visited Oz did she ever leave Kansas? Or did she just dream that she left Kansas?

I agree that the commercial plane is a legal fiction, as are all the actors performing in it. And that the money only has the color of money but is not real money because it has no intrinsic value.

I'm wrestling with the description in the video of what we got 'in exchange' for giving up real money, and for allowing our birth certificates to be turned into negotiable securities. In the videos you linked to, our friend talks about how we have a prepaid account we can draw upon. That is where the 'money' comes from when we use 'accepted for value' to satisfy our creditors. I can also understand how you would not need money in a communist system because it is From each according to his abilities, to each in accordance with their needs. Are we practicing communism--sans money--if we use 'accepted for value' to 'settle' our accounts? The guy in the video seems to think it is all good--even Admiralty Law. Where does the money come from when we accept something for value? How is it pre-paid? If everything is pre-paid, why do we even need money? And he's quick to point out that communism doesn't work because it allows people to live without working. How do you maintain a work ethic? We 'capitalists' allow people to live without working through government benefits.


Hatha

[palani]

How is it pre-paid? If everything is pre-paid, why do we even need money?

A catalyst? That is the problem with all these schemes. They are based upon a theory and the penalty for being wrong is severe. The first few people to try something new seem to get away with it and then the window closes and anyone else who tries that method gets slam dunked. My opinion? Avoid the commercial plane entirely. And that includes the political plane as well as the two are inseparable.

[Uncle Salty]

In the plane you find yourself in you must sign under penalty of perjury. How do you live with yourself?

I don't have to sign anything to meditate, be nice to others, give to others, and be kind.

[Uncle Salty]

My opinion? Avoid the commercial plane entirely. And that includes the political plane as well as the two are inseparable.

The internet is a commercial plane. Wake up.

[palani]

I don't have to sign anything to meditate
Anything you do requires your signature. That is your payment (and your bond).

[palani]

The internet is a commercial plane. Wake up.

My share of electrons and photons have been pre-paid. I am sharing them with others.

[Uncle Salty]

Anything you do requires your signature. That is your payment (and your bond).

Thanks for more apples to oranges semantic bullshit.

[palani]

Thanks for more apples to oranges semantic bullshit.

So you are an anti-semantic?

[palani]

There is no need to have an adversarial relationship with plane B, no need to not participate in plane B activities, and no need to reject the plane B reality.

Plane "B" being described as the democracy and Plane "A" the republic.

Participation in plane "B" means being controlled by plane "B". Plane "B" is virtually indistinguishable from the commercial plane. If there were a plane where misrepresentation of material matters of facts are valid then it is these two latter planes.

Think of a plane that contains all truth and another plane that contains all falsehoods. Plane "B" and the commercial plane (as it currently exists ... note that it may have had other beginnings of a different nature) represent fraud and exist entirely in the "falsehood" plane. To the extent you desire to involve yourself in fraud feel free to engage in activities in commerce and plane "B" politics.

[Hatha Sunahara]

I am reminded of Marc Stevens book Adventures in Legal Land where he lets you know how the 'justice' system uses English words to mean something other than the common meaning. How the judge tricks you into agreeing to his jurisdiction and never tells you what happened. The world of smoke and mirrors. That is a plane worth never visiting. Knowing about it can only help you avoid it. Not using money and being in honor helps to avoid entanglements in Legal Land. But often, it sucks you in against your will. You have to cultivate a life that makes you invisible.



Hatha