Not "Real" Officers

[palani]

Officer cited with not following orders of "unreal" officers. This would have been a good trial to sneak in on.

http://thegazette.com/2012/11/06/marion-police-sgt-tried-today-on-charges-he-disobeyed-officers/


http://thegazette.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Marion-police-officer-Phil-Fort-300x225.jpg

Marion police sergeant tried today on charges he disobeyed officers

A sergeant with the Marion Police Department is being tried today on charges he violated no-wake boundaries at the Coralville Reservoir in August and then refused to follow officer orders.

Marion Sgt. Phil Fort faces charges of interference with official acts and violation of no-wake buoys after water patrol officers with the Iowa Department of Natural Resources caught him operating a boat at the reservoir at 4:36 p.m. Aug. 19 in violation of the buoys, according to a criminal complaint.

Fort, 38, of Marion, was not on duty at the time. Officers reported telling him to stay where he was while they backed the patrol boat away to write him a citation, according to the complaint. Fort, according to the report, told officers that if they wanted to cite him, they would have to go to his slip – a docking space for his boat, according to the complaint.

Officers reported ordering Fort three times to remain where he was, but Fort is accused of disobeying orders by returning to his slip anyway, according to the report.

Fort pleaded not guilty to the charges, and his case on Friday was set for trial today.

The jury trial is expected to last one day. Attorneys this morning are in the process of selecting six jurors to hear the case.

Before beginning jury selection, attorneys presented issues they expect to come up during the trial. Fort’s defense attorney indicated that he intends to argue that DNR officers – at least those who are part-time – are not “real” officers.

[iOWNme]

'Real' Officers.....LMAO!

Is the Easter Bunny 'Real'?

What if we gathered a bunch of very smart and intellectual people to come together and agree that the Easter Bunny is real? What if they wrote it down on some very important looking paper? What if they got a bunch of other people to agree? What if they set up an entire hierarchy that looked professional and respectable to go around claiming that the 'Easter Bunny' has allowed them to claim 'Authority' over other people?

Palani - Do you honestly think there is a difference in REALITY between 'real' Officers, and 'not real' officers?

[freespirit]

here in canada, the MNR boys and girls have more powers than the police do...

[chad]

are any mnr officers nice? every one i've ever met is a complete prick. they go out of their way to be douchy.

[Hatha Sunahara]

Not only are the 'officers' not real officers, the laws are not real laws. This apears an exercise of authority--controlling an individual--not a case of policy enforcement. We, as a people haven't had the cojones to resist the unlimited funding of police power, now we have to pay the cost of it by dealing with cases like this. The fundamental underlying problem here is the police state. Our #1 priority should be to get rid of this police state because it is dangerous and will kill us all if it isn't controlled.


Hatha

[freespirit]

i've seen a female MNR officer draw her side arm and aim it directly at a couple of elderly fishermen who just happened to be fishing on the wrong side of a bridge. granted they were in a no boat zone, but that wasn't clearly posted, and is something typically only the locals are aware of...

complete overreaction, imo...

[palani]

Do you honestly think there is a difference in REALITY between 'real' Officers, and 'not real' officers?

As I stated .. it would have been a good trial to sneak in on. I think the entire affair is fascinating.

If an officer is not real then you tend to ignore their emergency lights and go about your business. That is exactly what this policeman did. I expect he was in a duly licensed boat and maybe he was making a wake and maybe not. The facts are that he was cited for the wake and chose to proceed on his way. He was nice enough to tell them where they could serve him with the citation though.

What would you do?

[iOWNme]

Not only are the 'officers' not real officers, the laws are not real laws. This apears an exercise of authority--controlling an individual--not a case of policy enforcement. We, as a people haven't had the cojones to resist the unlimited funding of police power, now we have to pay the cost of it by dealing with cases like this. The fundamental underlying problem is the superstitious belief in AUTHORITY. Our #1 priority should be to get rid of this police state because it is dangerous and will kill us all if it isn't controlled.


Hatha


Fixed it for you.

[palani]

are any mnr officers nice? every one i've ever met is a complete prick. they go out of their way to be douchy.

We used to farm a 200 acre farm with a creek running through it. Used to get game wardens all the time. Dad would chase them out along with any other trespassers he found. Mom couldn't abide any hunters in the field when she was pickin' corn.

[palani]

i've seen a female MNR officer draw her side arm and aim it directly at a couple of elderly fishermen who just happened to be fishing

Too bad they didn't know they had been assaulted. You can sue people like this who threaten you.

[freespirit]

she gave them a direct order to stop fishing and return to the downstream side of the bridge and they ignored her with a wave of their hand. thats when she drew her sidearm. they failed to respond to her directive, i guess she was just following protocol... not that that makes it appropriate, just filling in the details...

[palani]

they ignored her with a wave of their hand.

Sounds like they agreed with her but kept fishing. Wouldn't you have done the same?

Danged women have a knack of scaring fish away.

[iOWNme]

As I stated .. it would have been a good trial to sneak in on. I think the entire affair is fascinating.

If an officer is not real then you tend to ignore their emergency lights and go about your business. That is exactly what this policeman did. I expect he was in a duly licensed boat and maybe he was making a wake and maybe not. The facts are that he was cited for the wake and chose to proceed on his way. He was nice enough to tell them where they could serve him with the citation though.

What would you do?



I didnt say the man with a gun isnt real, i said the 'Officer' is not real and can never be real.

I might submit to a man with a gun, or i might choose to defend myself against a man with a gun. But in either situation, i am dealing with another man in reality, not an 'Officer'. In order for me to 'hallucinate' that he is an 'Officer' i have to be under the DELUSION that a thing called 'Authority' exists.

[palani]

i have to be under the DELUSION that a thing called 'Authority' exists.

People step into offices when they believe a job needs done. Let's see. There is a maxim somewhere. Oh, yeah ... there are several of them

Extra territorium jus dicenti non paretur impune. One who exercises jurisdiction out of his territory is not obeyed with impunity.

Mitius imperanti melius paretur. The more mildly one commands the better is he obeyed.

Remisus imperanti melius paretur. A man commanding not too strictly is best obeyed.

Ubi non est condendi auctoritas, ibi non est parendi necessitas. Where there is no authority to enforce, there is no authority to obey.

This last one, considered in light of the ongoing bankruptcy, pretty much says it all. The loss of public law is a result of the bankruptcy. All that is left is public policy and frankly the public is pretty screwed up.

[iOWNme]

People step into offices when they believe a job needs done. Let's see. There is a maxim somewhere. Oh, yeah ... there are several of them

Offices DO NOT exist, anymore than a glass of dry water exists.


Extra territorium jus dicenti non paretur impune. One who exercises jurisdiction out of his territory is not obeyed with impunity.

'Jurisdiction' and 'territroy'....More fantasy made up by men who have no ability to PRODUCE in reality, so they make up an imaginary thing called 'Authority' in order to rob others who do produce.


Mitius imperanti melius paretur. The more mildly one commands the better is he obeyed.

Remisus imperanti melius paretur. A man commanding not too strictly is best obeyed.

No man has any obligation whatsoever to 'obey' another man. PERIOD.


Ubi non est condendi auctoritas, ibi non est parendi necessitas. Where there is no authority to enforce, there is no authority to obey.

There is that word again. Why dont we discuss unicorns and fairy's? Im sure they have just as much relevance to reality than some made up Volcano God called 'Authority'.


This last one, considered in light of the ongoing bankruptcy, pretty much says it all. The loss of public law is a result of the bankruptcy. All that is left is public policy and frankly the public is pretty screwed up.


Public Law does not exist anymore than a God in an alternate universe does. it only exists in YOUR MIND, because you have decided it is real, even though it isnt and can never be.

Government CANNOT exist, in REALITY. Do you disgaree?

Yet poeple spend years of their lives reading and researching all of the technical jargon about SANTA CLAUSE. You keep making this seem real in your mind, when it is the fantasy of CRIMINALS. Stop caring about what criminals do, and free your mind.

[palani]

Offices DO NOT exist, anymore than a glass of dry water exists. Idealistic but hardly practical. Say I should step into the cockpit of a plane and decide I am going to undertake a series of touch and go landings in the pattern at O'hare while completely ignoring the office of Air Traffic Controller. Should I be so irresponsible as to risk the lives of hundreds of people on a whim I would reasonably expect some sanctions.


'Jurisdiction' and 'territroy'....More fantasy made up by men who have no ability to PRODUCE in reality, so they make up an imaginary thing called 'Authority' in order to rob others who do produce. Jurisdiction of an Air Traffic Controller is that of traffic regulator for vessels that go fast and cause a lot of damage when improperly handled. Territory of an Air Traffic Controller is by definition controlled airspace. The two terms are somewhat flexible in their definition.


No man has any obligation whatsoever to 'obey' another man. PERIOD. No man has an obligation to obey a sign wherein no authority is posted. Such a sign is a STOP sign. It seems reasonable to recognize such signs and perform whatever actions will prevent crashes.


There is that word again. Why dont we discuss unicorns and fairy's? Im sure they have just as much relevance to reality than some made up Volcano God called 'Authority'. Perhaps your problem with the word authority is that you view it as flowing from others to direct your activities. Instead view yourself as the source of all authority and any authority others have you assign them or not as you choose. Your view is of a slave viewing an all powerful master while my view is of a master delegating as reason dictates.


Public Law does not exist anymore than a God in an alternate universe does. it only exists in YOUR MIND, because you have decided it is real, even though it isnt and can never be. Public law USED to exist. It might again if any PUBLIC I would choose to join could be classed "responsible".


Government CANNOT exist, in REALITY. Do you disgaree? Nonsense. Good government is an attribute of every responsible State. If the State cannot responsibly be self-governing then government must be outsourced. My government is perfectly responsible and is not outsourced.


Yet poeple spend years of their lives reading and researching all of the technical jargon about SANTA CLAUSE. You keep making this seem real in your mind, when it is the fantasy of CRIMINALS. Stop caring about what criminals do, and free your mind. I would term this sentiment "weeding your own garden".


Every man is where he is by the law of his being; the thoughts which he has built into his character have brought him there, and in the arrangement of his life there is no element of chance, but all is the result of a law which cannot err. This is just as true of those who feel "out of harmony" with their surroundings as of those who are contented with them.

[Ponce]

To me this is like the Zionist wanabe Jews vs the Semite real Jews.

[iOWNme]

Idealistic but hardly practical. Say I should step into the cockpit of a plane and decide I am going to undertake a series of touch and go landings in the pattern at O'hare while completely ignoring the office of Air Traffic Controller. Should I be so irresponsible as to risk the lives of hundreds of people on a whim I would reasonably expect some sanctions.

Risked? Sanctions? More fictional fantasy revolving around PRE CRIME. Sounds like something 'Government' would make up.


Jurisdiction of an Air Traffic Controller is that of traffic regulator for vessels that go fast and cause a lot of damage when improperly handled. Territory of an Air Traffic Controller is by definition controlled airspace. The two terms are somewhat flexible in their definition.

There is no such thing as 'Jurisdiction'. A group of men coming together and 'claiming' some ficticious authority has no meaning or relation to the real world. It only exists in the minds of those men, and those who choose to believe the SUPERSTITION.


No man has an obligation to obey a sign wherein no authority is posted. Such a sign is a STOP sign. It seems reasonable to recognize such signs and perform whatever actions will prevent crashes.

Authority doesnt exist, stop using Santa Calause and the Easter bunny to make your points. Men will use their own actions to prevent crashes IN REALITY without the need for a Government enforced sign. Why? Because they dont want to get injured, or they dont want to injure anothers property, but NOT because of some words written on paper.


Perhaps your problem with the word authority is that you view it as flowing from others to direct your activities. Instead view yourself as the source of all authority and any authority others have you assign them or not as you choose. Your view is of a slave viewing an all powerful master while my view is of a master delegating as reason dictates.

Authority DOES NOT EXIST. If a man can regulate his own actions, it isnt 'authority' it is self ownership. If a man tries to regulate the actions of another man - via FORCE (Government) - it still isnt 'authority', it is CRIMINAL.


Public law USED to exist. It might again if any PUBLIC I would choose to join could be classed "responsible".

I think you believe it used to exist, but some poeple thought Volcano Gods existed as well. Explain to me how it 'used' to exist when all it ever was was a made up idea that a small group of men decided on and that no other men had any obligation to follow?


Nonsense. Good government is an attribute of every responsible State. If the State cannot responsibly be self-governing then government must be outsourced. My government is perfectly responsible and is not outsourced.

The STATE doesnt exist. STOP IT.

If a group of men HAVE the power/authority to steal from and murder its citizens then it isnt Government - IT IS CRIMINALS. If a group of men DO NOT have the power/authority to steal from and murder its own citizens then it isnt Government - IT IS A GROUP OF MEN NOBODY LISTENS TO. Either way, neither of them are 'Government', because 'Government' DOES NOT AND CAN NOT EXIST.

So i say again, GOVERNMENT CAN NOT EXIST. AUTHORITY CAN NOT EXIST.

Humans are the top of the food chain, which means no man can POSSIBLY have the right/authority/power/office, or any other psuedo-religious JARGON to rule over another man. PERIOD. If you think there are certain men who have some magical power to rule over other men, THEN HUMANS ARE NOT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN, but 'some' of them are higher up the chain than others. (Authoritarian Ideaology.........There is that word again!)

[iOWNme]

Palani you wouldnt consider yourself a STATIST, yet you believe in the STATE?

Please educate me......

[palani]

Palani you wouldnt consider yourself a STATIST, yet you believe in the STATE?

Please educate me......

While you might class yourself as an amoeba I class myself as the State and I am a bit critical of those who might say they represent me.

[palani]

Risked? Sanctions? Did you think insurance removes all risk?


There is no such thing as 'Jurisdiction'. A group of men coming together and 'claiming' some ficticious authority has no meaning or relation to the real world. It only exists in the minds of those men, and those who choose to believe the SUPERSTITION. In its broadest sens "jurisdiction" means "oath spoken".


Authority doesnt exist, stop using Santa Calause and the Easter bunny to make your points. Men will use their own actions to prevent crashes IN REALITY without the need for a Government enforced sign. Why? Because they dont want to get injured, or they dont want to injure anothers property, but NOT because of some words written on paper. Authority is de factor or de jure. De facto is in your face while de jure is with your agreement. Perhaps it helps to know there is a difference between the two?


Authority DOES NOT EXIST. If a man can regulate his own actions, it isnt 'authority' it is self ownership. If a man tries to regulate the actions of another man - via FORCE (Government) - it still isnt 'authority', it is CRIMINAL.
Authority is a concept. What parameters do you establish for "existence"? If you are relying upon the senses you will never detect authority. If you are relying upon reason then you cannot deny it.


I think you believe it used to exist, but some poeple thought Volcano Gods existed as well. Explain to me how it 'used' to exist when all it ever was was a made up idea that a small group of men decided on and that no other men had any obligation to follow?
You may educate yourself here: http://books.google.com/books?id=NrkDAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=public+law&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KteaUJHKIInDyQHxo4CgBg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg

Do yourself a favor and interpret these things for your benefit rather than as a ball and chain.



The STATE doesnt exist. STOP IT. I exist.


If a group of men HAVE the power/authority to steal from and murder its citizens then it isnt Government - IT IS CRIMINALS. If a group of men DO NOT have the power/authority to steal from and murder its own citizens then it isnt Government - IT IS A GROUP OF MEN NOBODY LISTENS TO. Either way, neither of them are 'Government', because 'Government' DOES NOT AND CAN NOT EXIST. Government is a subsection of the State. No State can exist without a responsible government. Therefore government is an essential aspect of the the State. Your viewpoint appears to be that representative government is the ONLY type of government. Your viewpoint is wrong.


So i say again, GOVERNMENT CAN NOT EXIST. AUTHORITY CAN NOT EXIST. Repeating yourself does not improve your position.


Humans are the top of the food chain, which means no man can POSSIBLY have the right/authority/power/office, or any other psuedo-religious JARGON to rule over another man. PERIOD. If you think there are certain men who have some magical power to rule over other men, THEN HUMANS ARE NOT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN, but 'some' of them are higher up the chain than others. (Authoritarian Ideaology.........There is that word again!)
Hu_man is color of man. It is a construct that has only existed for 500-600 years. Man is not intended to survive humanism. Ballantines dictionary even defines "human" as "monster". Your choice of words is poorly selected.

[iOWNme]

Did you think insurance removes all risk?

Does the Volcano God remove all risk from my crops not growing?


In its broadest sens "jurisdiction" means "oath spoken".

Authority is de factor or de jure. De facto is in your face while de jure is with your agreement. Perhaps it helps to know there is a difference between the two?

A difference? Thats like you asking me if Christmas would be better with Santa Clause or without?

They are BOTH made up because no man can have 'authority' over another man. You seem to think (Like i did for a LONG time) that the 'De Jure' form was real. But just because you agree with it, and it makes sense to you DOES NOT make it any more relevant than a group of men worshiping a Volcano. I dont care how nice the men were, i dont care how oppressed they were, i dont care how great their penmanship was, what seal they used, how many people agreed with it, or any other pseudo-religious magical ceremonial mythical blessings that were bestowed upon it- It still has NO POWER or AUTHORITY over anyone or anything. It only has ANY power/authority that you give it, and even then the power/authority ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR MIND.



Authority is a concept. What parameters do you establish for "existence"? If you are relying upon the senses you will never detect authority. If you are relying upon reason then you cannot deny it.

Relying on senses (and the scientific method) is the CORE of logical thinking and rationality. Now you know why we arent communicating very well. LOL Authority cant be detected because it doesnt exist. You still dont get it. If a Cop is beating me with a stick (unless in his own self defense), he doesnt have any authority - HE IS JUST A CRIMINAL ASSAULTING ME.

Palani - ANY form of authority you can dream up, de jure or otherwise, INSTANTLY turns into a CRIMINAL the very minute they exercise this thing called 'Authority'. YOU CANNOT REFUTE THIS. Even your perfect 'De Jure' Government turns into a CRIMINAL the first time they use proactive FORCE/COERCION on one of its citizens. It doesnt matter if 12 people said they could! 12 people cant change reality, unless you believe in Volcano Gods. Just because you believe in your mid that since this thing called 'Government' went through its correct rituals and ceremonies in order to steal another mans property, DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT. And never can.....And if you try and say it wasnt stealing because this thing called 'Government' did some magical mythical rituals and ceremonies and so reality then changed, and we were able to take his property without it being theft. Then i would put you into the realm of the Volcano God worshipers.

I cannot explain it any more crystal clear than that. You know i love your postings, but at some point i feel like i am talking to an Attorner with you. The only difference being is i like you. Its one thing to try and make people think, but when you see someone genuinely trying to communicate it might be time to put the abstract quackery in the time out box.



Do yourself a favor and interpret these things for your benefit rather than as a ball and chain.

No thanks. Just as i wouldnt spend time trying to interpret some ancient text from the Volcano God civilization. It has absolutely no bearing or value whatsoever in terms of rational and logical thinking. It may be a bit interesting, as i spent many years researching it. But i came to the ultimate conclusion that this thing called 'Authority' only exists because we were all taught it from childhood. As a child we all saw our parents quiver when Tax time came, we all saw them flinch every time they got pulled over by the Cops. We all saw the Cops ultimately running the show when we were very young. We were bathed in this thing called 'Authority'. Our teachers yelled at us, ostracized us, they bossed us around, and we all learned that in order to be 'good' you must OBEY thins thing called 'Authority.

And now that your older, you try and rationalize it by thinking that it used to be in some other magical form that was better. THAT IS NOT the mindset of a free man.



I exist.

I agree.


Government is a subsection of the State. No State can exist without a responsible government. Therefore government is an essential aspect of the the State. Your viewpoint appears to be that representative government is the ONLY type of government. Your viewpoint is wrong.

Government cannot even exist. Either refute what i posted here with logical and rational evidence and i will continue this discussion, or we have come to an impasse.


If a group of men HAVE the power/authority to steal from and murder its citizens then it isnt Government - IT IS CRIMINALS. If a group of men DO NOT have the power/authority to steal from and murder its own citizens then it isnt Government - IT IS A GROUP OF MEN NOBODY LISTENS TO. Either way, neither of them are 'Government', because 'Government' DOES NOT AND CAN NOT EXIST.


Repeating yourself does not improve your position.

I told you, i felt like i was talking to an Attorner. Are you BAR certified? LOL



Hu_man is color of man. It is a construct that has only existed for 500-600 years. Man is not intended to survive humanism. Ballantines dictionary even defines "human" as "monster". Your choice of words is poorly selected.

And instead of addressing what i wrote, you chose to address my incorrect word choice. As long as you cant rebut what i said, then yes i chose my word poorly. LOL So is 'man' the top of the species on planet earth? Yes or No. And again using logical and rational thinking if man is the top then how can one man have any right to rule over another man without entering the realm of the Volcano Gods?

I wont be offended if you dont reply in depth, as i wont again either. We have both made our points i think.

[D sciple]

Without God there are no rights.

Without law there are no criminals.

[palani]

Does the Volcano God remove all risk from my crops not growing? Your Volcano God would appear to have little validity in the commercial plane.




A difference? Thats like you asking me if Christmas would be better with Santa Clause or without?
De jure is "YOU AGREE". De facto is "LACKING YOUR AGREEMENT". You may practice Christmas as you desire.


They are BOTH made up because no man can have 'authority' over another man. You seem to think (Like i did for a LONG time) that the 'De Jure' form was real. But just because you agree with it, and it makes sense to you DOES NOT make it any more relevant than a group of men worshiping a Volcano. I dont care how nice the men were, i dont care how oppressed they were, i dont care how great their penmanship was, what seal they used, how many people agreed with it, or any other pseudo-religious magical ceremonial mythical blessings that were bestowed upon it- It still has NO POWER or AUTHORITY over anyone or anything. It only has ANY power/authority that you give it, and even then the power/authority ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR MIND. Constructs are used because they are useful in explaining mechanisms. I am used to working with imaginary things. These concepts were drummed into my training early. Think of the difference between KWs and KVARS. One exists while the other is an imaginary construct. Imaginary numbers don't exist but are useful (and necessary) to explain stability in control systems (S-plane with a real horizontal axis and imaginary jw axis). Using these engineering concepts to extend to the political system is natural to me. Possibly it is less practical for others.





Relying on senses (and the scientific method) is the CORE of logical thinking and rationality. Now you know why we arent communicating very well. LOL Authority cant be detected because it doesnt exist. You still dont get it. If a Cop is beating me with a stick (unless in his own self defense), he doesnt have any authority - HE IS JUST A CRIMINAL ASSAULTING ME. He might be beating you with a stick but if he told you "it is necessary for you to _____" and you refused then you failed to understand that he might kill you with impunity under the law of necessity. It helps to understand some basic concepts of language (and Roman law).


Palani - ANY form of authority you can dream up, de jure or otherwise, INSTANTLY turns into a CRIMINAL the very minute they exercise this thing called 'Authority'. YOU CANNOT REFUTE THIS. Even your perfect 'De Jure' Government turns into a CRIMINAL the first time they use proactive FORCE/COERCION on one of its citizens. It doesnt matter if 12 people said they could! 12 people cant change reality, unless you believe in Volcano Gods. Just because you believe in your mid that since this thing called 'Government' went through its correct rituals and ceremonies in order to steal another mans property, DOES NOT MAKE IT RIGHT. And never can.....And if you try and say it wasnt stealing because this thing called 'Government' did some magical mythical rituals and ceremonies and so reality then changed, and we were able to take his property without it being theft. Then i would put you into the realm of the Volcano God worshipers. I don't worship authority. It is an attribute that is associated with me that I assign or not. Reason is closer to a controlling factor than authority. Reason takes you on a path that is based upon logic, grammar and rhetoric.


I cannot explain it any more crystal clear than that. You know i love your postings, but at some point i feel like i am talking to an Attorner with you. The only difference being is i like you. Its one thing to try and make people think, but when you see someone genuinely trying to communicate it might be time to put the abstract quackery in the time out box. There is no quackery involved. Perhaps you are trying to treat everyone as if they are domestic to you in that they share your observations and values. I try to treat everyone as if they are foreign to me.


[QUOTE=Sui Juris;586855]ust as i wouldnt spend time trying to interpret some ancient text from the Volcano God civilization. It has absolutely no bearing or value whatsoever in terms of rational and logical thinking. It may be a bit interesting, as i spent many years researching it. But i came to the ultimate conclusion that this thing called 'Authority' only exists because we were all taught it from childhood. As a child we all saw our parents quiver when Tax time came, we all saw them flinch every time they got pulled over by the Cops. We all saw the Cops ultimately running the show when we were very young. We were bathed in this thing called 'Authority'. Our teachers yelled at us, ostracized us, they bossed us around, and we all learned that in order to be 'good' you must OBEY thins thing called 'Authority. Time and experience should cure you of any programming you learned as a child. In the private system of government that everyone genuflects to these days many do so because they recognize no alternatives. There are always alternatives though. Everything that happens to you occurs by your choice one way or another. If someone comes at you with "authority" give them a counter offer. Make the terms in your favor. Just recognize when it comes to an officer (anyone bearing the external appearance of authority) brings up the word "necessary" or "necessity" you really ought to be thinking of your survival. By using this word he is telling you that you and he are at sea with one plank between you that will only support one man and he intends that man to be him. Certainly this is a downside of understanding grammar. Most people would not pick up this subtle point and would continue argument past the point where the gunfight should occur.


And now that your older, you try and rationalize it by thinking that it used to be in some other magical form that was better. THAT IS NOT the mindset of a free man. Free men do not have FRNs in their wallet. Check your ears carefully to see whether holes have been bored in them without your knowledge.



Government cannot even exist. Either refute what i posted here with logical and rational evidence and i will continue this discussion, or we have come to an impasse. Dad worked as a chemical salesman once. On a visit to a farmer once the farmer pointed out to the field and said "you ever seen such a big buck"? Dad looked and didn't see any buck but he agreed "that is a big one". Point is when people are wrapped up in a delusion your choice is to agree or disagree. You wouldn't want to puncture someone elses balloon now, would you? They can turn quite violent quickly.


I told you, i felt like i was talking to an Attorner. Are you BAR certified? LOL I took a law course once .. .law for contractors.


And instead of addressing what i wrote, you chose to address my incorrect word choice. As long as you cant rebut what i said, then yes i chose my word poorly. LOL So is 'man' the top of the species on planet earth? Yes or No. And again using logical and rational thinking if man is the top then how can one man have any right to rule over another man without entering the realm of the Volcano Gods? I have no knowledge of how many species of man there are. I would guess as many as there are tribes on the face of the earth.

Say you want to put up a house in the country. You have a choice. You might put in a septic system or build an outhouse. With a septic system you are dealing with sewage (nightsoil blended with chemicals) while with an outhouse you are dealing with nightsoil only. The first has many regulations associated with it. The second is a valuable additive to grow plants. Which one do you choose?


I wont be offended if you dont reply in depth, as i wont again either. We have both made our points i think. Neither will I be offended if you offer your observations.

[palani]

A state of affairs that has existed since the French revolution:

http://i47.tinypic.com/1qhlhg.jpg

[Hatha Sunahara]

That was a realy good dialog about authority. I have similar arguments going on in my own head on occasions. It is a constant balancing of our view between emotion and reason. Palani is not quite the anarchist that SJ is. There is also the qualities of pragmatism and flexibility. I applaud you both. Your arguments written down were every bit as good, and maybe better than the ones going on in my own head. Sui Juris comes from the same place that Larken Rose comes from. IMHO. Palani comes at it from a pragmatic perspective where you weigh your opponent to minimize damage and maximize gain. That requires more flexibility on principles. The only thing I can add to this argument that would have any value is: "do whatever you can get away with". If nobody objects, you've gotten away with it--whatever it is.


Hatha

[palani]

Palani comes at it from a pragmatic perspective where you weigh your opponent to minimize damage and maximize gain.

Hatha

More to it than that. What if those who would do away with government are entirely successful. What would the millions who need the government do in these circumstances? They lack the skills or resources to govern themselves. For someone who is self-governing there is no problem.

[iOWNme]

More to it than that. What if those who would do away with government are entirely successful. What would the millions who need the government do in these circumstances? They lack the skills or resources to govern themselves. For someone who is self-governing there is no problem.

Did you campaign for Barack Obama?

I have never seen someone defend immoral and unjust actions so vehemently. And just so you know, it was the Volcano God that created the welfare state, and now you say we need a superstitious mythical deity called 'Authority' to take care of them? What gives man?


Hatha - Its true i do read Larkens work as well as Stefan Molyneux, Ayn Rand, Mark Stevens, etc. These people didnt invent this either. There have been people for thousands of years saying the same thing. There is no logical reason for Government. If you say we need Government because bad guys are out there, then i will tell you we cannot have Government BECAUSE bad guys will get into it and use it for evil. Anyone who says otherwise is not being honest with themselves.

1. Bad/evil/greedy people can only do XXX amount of damage on their own. But bad/evil/greedy people can do MASSIVE damage on a global scale to hundreds of millions of people by using a thing called 'Government'. (Which was invented to STOP bad/evil/greedy people from hurting others!)

2. Bad/evil/greedy people seek POWER. Good/upstanding/honest people DO NOT. If bad/evil/greedy people exist, (we all agree) then we know that these will be the people who will seek to get into positions of power. So we cannot create a massive huge machine called 'Government' because the very people we think need to be 'ruled over' will eventually get into 'Government' and do harm on a massive scale.

3. If people want to protect themselves and their property, then why would they create a thing called 'Authority' that has the power to steal from and kill them at any time? I mean the odds of some random criminals robbing you vs 100% chance of being robbed of half your wealth everyday is ridiculous.

4. If man is the top of the food chain, then all men own themselves. If some men are more equal than other men, then man is not the top and is just another animal to be ruled over by the strongest of the herd. Man either has the intellectual capability to run his own life, or he doesnt.


I believe man is under mind control, and cannot even imagine life without Government. Just like people in 1830's could never have imagined life without slavery. Man is bathed in a thing called 'Authority' his entire life! Your parents were the authority. The Cops were the authority. The school was the authority. Your teacher was the authority. The bus driver was the authority. The Government was the ultimate authority. Religion was the authority. As a matter of fact EVERYONE was the authority to you as a child. It is literally ingrained into us, etched into our psyche, and stamped into our minds. But it isnt real and never can be.

For people who are very religious, it is a massive life of hypocrisy. Man created all the Laws we follow, and Im pretty sure the outstanding gentleman that were the Founding Fathers were men. More men creating arbitrary power conjured up from thin air. And so instead of just living by what you know is right, you follow mans laws which FORCE you to do the wrong thing.

In closing, Morals exist. Right and Wrong exist. So whether we have Government or no Government - Every action done by every person can still be categorized into Right/Wrong. REGARDLESS of if the Government agrees or not. REGARDLESS of if there is a Law saying you can or cannot. REGARDLESS of if 12 people agree or not!

Anarchy is what exists. Government is what is Hallucinated.

[palani]

Did you campaign for Barack Obama? I disqualified him. Did you?


I have never seen someone defend immoral and unjust actions so vehemently. And just so you know, it was the Volcano God that created the welfare state, and now you say we need a superstitious mythical deity called 'Authority' to take care of them? What gives man? I suspect you would handle sewage in the same manner as nightsoil. Not that I blame you for this irrational act but don't you believe you need to be protected from being so irresponsible as to perform an act that will eventually injure your neighbors?




I believe man is under mind control, and cannot even imagine life without Government. Just like people in 1830's could never have imagined life without slavery. Man is bathed in a thing called 'Authority' his entire life! Could you imagine purchasing a ticket on a 747 with the understanding that the plane might need to navigate through a flock of J-3 Cubs with pilots who are entirely unregulated? Some authority must exist or chaos results.


you follow mans laws which FORCE you to do the wrong thing. You concentrate on the abuses and ignore the reasons.


In closing, Morals exist. Right and Wrong exist....Anarchy is what exists. Government is what is Hallucinated. If you refuse to govern yourself then you will be governed so in the end analysis the choice is yours. Stupid is not a good choice but it is still a choice.