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View Full Version : Beyond the 'fiscal cliff,' reasons for optimism



Horn
9th November 2012, 06:59 PM
NEW YORK -- Forget about the "fiscal cliff."
That might be hard, considering the drama of this week. The stock market had its worst two-day plunge in a year after voters returned President Barack Obama, a Republican House and a Democratic Senate to power.


Investors fear the approaching cliff -- tax increases and government spending cuts that begin to take effect Jan. 1 unless Obama and Congress can work out a compromise.


Economists say the hit to the economy next year could be $800 billion, enough to push the United States back into another recession. And financial analysts are predicting more market turmoil as the deadline approaches.


Lawmakers almost certainly will work out a deal -- perhaps messily, unsatisfyingly and with lots of theatrics, but a deal nonetheless. But what happens after that, and to the market in Obama's second term?


Home prices are rising again in many parts of the country. Job growth is much faster than it was last spring. Consumer confidence and retail spending are up. And so is the stock market, this week's jitters notwithstanding.


Even some of those who think the economy and markets will run into trouble soon see better times on the other side of the cliff.
David Kostin, Goldman Sachs's U.S. equity strategist, expects a budget battle in Washington to send the Standard & Poor's 500 index down to 1,250 by the end of the year, about 10 percent lower than where it closed Friday.

Once the fight is finished, however, things should turn around quickly, he says. By the end of next year, the S&P 500 will reach 1,575, Goldman says, clearing its previous all-time high by 10 points.
There are factors that could still hobble the economy, of course.
Median household income has dropped every year since 2007, after adjusting for inflation. The unemployment rate is still high. The Federal Reserve warned last month that job growth, like U.S. economic growth, remains slow.
Here are three things you should watch as you plot an investing strategy for the next four years.
The bottom line
The traditional thinking is that a Democratic president equals higher taxes for businesses. But financial analysts at UBS aren't so sure. In a report before the election, they predicted that the corporate tax rate would drop under Obama or Romney.
And anyway, says Carol Pepper, CEO of the wealth management firm Pepper International in New York, companies aren't going to stop growing just because they're faced with higher taxes.
"That," she says, "is cutting off your nose to spite your face."
For more than three years, companies in the S&P 500 have improved earnings every quarter compared with the year before, according to market research company S&P Capital IQ.
Often, their growth has defied expectations. At the beginning of October, analysts were predicting that third-quarter corporate profits would fall nearly 2 percent compared with a year ago.
With about 90 percent of the companies in the S&P 500 turning in results, they're expected to be up more than 2 percent. And higher earnings generally send a company's stock higher.
That's no guarantee, of course. Revenue for the third quarter so far is up only about 0.6 percent, which means that companies' profit growth is driven not by selling more goods and services but by cutting costs, which can mean laying off workers or trimming salaries.
And compared with a year ago, the earnings and revenue growth is downright anemic. In the third quarter of 2011, earnings grew more than 17 percent over the previous year, according to S&P Capital IQ. Revenue was up more than 11 percent.
Still, if companies managed to increase profits during a slow economic recovery, they should have no trouble doing it if the economy really picks up.
The china machine
You can't consider the future of the world economy, and therefore the future of the U.S. stock market, without considering China, the world's second-largest economy behind the United States.
You've probably heard that the Chinese economy has slowed. But it's still expanding at an annual rate of 7.4 percent, more than triple the U.S. rate, and far better than the contraction in most of Europe.
China's middle class is big and getting bigger. That makes it more expensive for U.S. companies to produce goods there because of higher living standards, but it also means more customers for American companies to sell things to.
Adrian Day, president of Adrian Day Asset Management in Annapolis, Md., says he's optimistic on China, though it's not without risks. Young people moving en masse from the country to the city can fuel social tensions, and the country's rules still prove baffling or impenetrable for many foreign investors.
"However pessimistic people are about China," Day says, "China's economy is still growing."
Dry powder
One popular theory for why the economy is set to improve: Companies hoarded money during the financial crisis and now sit on record piles of cash. The Fed says nonfinancial companies hold about $1.7 trillion in cash and other liquid assets.
Companies have cut back spending on machinery, tools, software and other so-called capital goods, resulting in the slowest growth in "capital stock" in nearly 50 years, notes Michelle Meyer, the U.S. economist at Bank of America Merrill Lynch.
"The positive story is that once the fiscal cliff is resolved, even if it's a messy process, some of the uncertainty hanging over businesses will be removed," she says.


Pent-up demand from corporations could turn into spending in the spring and pick up through next year.

Jeremy Zirin, chief equity strategist at UBS Wealth Management, says the cash heap is the "dry powder" that will fuel growth.
A major caveat: Market watchers have been talking about companies sitting on cash for a long time. The amount has been roughly the same nearly three years, and nothing so far has convinced companies to spend it liberally.

http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_21968203/beyond-fiscal-cliff-reasons-optimism



Yes, their demand for business could turn into liquidation spending.

Ponce
9th November 2012, 07:13 PM
Back to another recession?.......we havent left the first one, as a matter of fact IS GETTING WORSEEEEE.

Horn
9th November 2012, 11:18 PM
I mean it almost right there at the top of the toilet bowl rim now, you can see it dripping over the rim.

If they don't increase debt/spending the economy itself will tank.

How much more do people need to see that the gig is up?

mamboni
10th November 2012, 10:09 AM
Bullshit doubletalk article. Let me tell you why we are fooked and the fiscal and monetary SWHTF within 4 years:

1. Businesses big and small are laying off thousands to offset the cost of Obamacare. Net result: drop in federal tax receipts and bigger deficit.
2. Businesses are not hiring FTs and are cutting PT hours to under 30 to circumvent Obamacare. Net result: drop in federal tax receipts and bigger deficit.
3. The boomers are retrenching big time to make up for years of undersaving, and lost income from ZIRP. And they realize that the big payout from sale of their biggest investment, their home, ain't gonna materialize. This means lower consumption and declining money velocity. Net result: drop in federal tax receipts and bigger deficit.
4. Hurricane Sandy destroyed thousands of high end homes and with them tax revenues in the many $billions. Net result: drop in federal, state and local tax receipts and bigger deficit.
5. Insurance companies will be taking huge writeoffs for storm damage. Net result: drop in federal tax receipts and bigger deficit.
6. NY and NJ will see huge holes in budgets from storm, due to massive property and infrastructure damage, loss of thousands of small businesses, and loss of thousands who will leave the state permanently because a destroyed homes is as good as a sold home. NY and NJ will demand federal bailout in excess of $100 billion and the feds will acquiesce. Net result: drop in federal tax receipts and bigger deficit.

Businesses are downsizing. Money velocity is dropping. Unemployment is rising, masked by years of cooked government numbers using the fraudulent birth-death model. RE market shadow inventory cannot be cleared and is a massive lodestone on RE prices forever. There is no real growth the US economy in any sector except one: healthcare as increasing demand is driven by the boomers. And Obamacare will snuff that out.

The US economy is disintegrating. All that is left is the FED money printing machine to prop up nominal prices and real prices keep falling. Once the EURO situation is stabilized, the world will flee the dollar and there will be a treasury auction failure and huge spike in interest rates. Banks will fail, ATMs with freeze, businesses will sieze up as lines of credit will bounce en masse. Then it's lights out as the trucks and rails stop and food, water and fuel deliveries stop. Martial law will be declared and the armed forces will be deployed. But they will not be there to help you as you freeze and starve to death or get killed by looters. Imagine Sandy on a national scale and you'll get the picture. By 2016, America will be a war zone and no one will be in charge nationally.

Ponce
10th November 2012, 10:16 AM
Well, the government are cutting their own throat......take my X......when she bought a house in NJ she was paying $3.500 a year is taxes........when she sold it is 2,011 she was paying $10,500.......so, she got rid of it....only problem is that there is not another sucker paying that tax........all that they are doing is to insure their pay check.

By the way, even with a Land Patent I will have to pay property tax....but.......no country, state or federal angents or reps my come in my property.......and that's what counts.

Horn
10th November 2012, 10:52 AM
But they will not be there to help you as you freeze and starve to death or get killed by looters. Imagine Sandy on a national scale and you'll get the picture. By 2016, America will be a war zone and no one will be in charge nationally.

I'm getting reports from up there that it is already one step away from civil war in certain areas, with the new cold storm.

Nothing is being reported in the news.

old steel
10th November 2012, 11:43 AM
Bullshit doubletalk article. Let me tell you why we are fooked and the fiscal and monetary SWHTF within 4 years:

1. Businesses big and small are laying off thousands to offset the cost of Obamacare. Net result: drop in federal tax receipts and bigger deficit.
2. Businesses are not hiring FTs and are cutting PT hours to under 30 to circumvent Obamacare. Net result: drop in federal tax receipts and bigger deficit.
3. The boomers are retrenching big time to make up for years of undersaving, and lost income from ZIRP. And they realize that the big payout from sale of their biggest investment, their home, ain't gonna materialize. This means lower consumption and declining money velocity. Net result: drop in federal tax receipts and bigger deficit.
4. Hurricane Sandy destroyed thousands of high end homes and with them tax revenues in the many $billions. Net result: drop in federal, state and local tax receipts and bigger deficit.
5. Insurance companies will be taking huge writeoffs for storm damage. Net result: drop in federal tax receipts and bigger deficit.
6. NY and NJ will see huge holes in budgets from storm, due to massive property and infrastructure damage, loss of thousands of small businesses, and loss of thousands who will leave the state permanently because a destroyed homes is as good as a sold home. NY and NJ will demand federal bailout in excess of $100 billion and the feds will acquiesce. Net result: drop in federal tax receipts and bigger deficit.

Businesses are downsizing. Money velocity is dropping. Unemployment is rising, masked by years of cooked government numbers using the fraudulent birth-death model. RE market shadow inventory cannot be cleared and is a massive lodestone on RE prices forever. There is no real growth the US economy in any sector except one: healthcare as increasing demand is driven by the boomers. And Obamacare will snuff that out.

The US economy is disintegrating. All that is left is the FED money printing machine to prop up nominal prices and real prices keep falling. Once the EURO situation is stabilized, the world will flee the dollar and there will be a treasury auction failure and huge spike in interest rates. Banks will fail, ATMs with freeze, businesses will sieze up as lines of credit will bounce en masse. Then it's lights out as the trucks and rails stop and food, water and fuel deliveries stop. Martial law will be declared and the armed forces will be deployed. But they will not be there to help you as you freeze and starve to death or get killed by looters. Imagine Sandy on a national scale and you'll get the picture. By 2016, America will be a war zone and no one will be in charge nationally.


4 more years?

That is what they said four years ago.

mamboni
10th November 2012, 10:56 PM
4 more years?

That is what they said four years ago.

Got a reference?

I'll admit this: the globalists have shown great skill in prolonging the decline. It is possible that we will simply have a slow grind lower rather than a collapse. But by 2016 America will be bordering on a second world country.

madfranks
11th November 2012, 06:58 AM
By the way, even with a Land Patent I will have to pay property tax....but.......no country, state or federal angents or reps my come in my property.......and that's what counts.

So, what happens if you stop paying property taxes? Will they come on your property then?

Carl
11th November 2012, 10:10 AM
Got a reference?

I'll admit this: the globalists have shown great skill in prolonging the decline. It is possible that we will simply have a slow grind lower rather than a collapse. But by 2016 America will be bordering on a second world country.

The globalists haven't shown great skill in prolonging the decline, they have shown great skill in managing the planned decline.

The Goal: Global Economic Equalization.

The Means: Redistribution of Western, primarily U.S., wealth to less advanced economies.

Shit, I knew about this back in the 70's....

mamboni
11th November 2012, 03:38 PM
"You Americans are so gullible. No, you won't accept communism outright. But we'll keep feeding you small doses of socialism until you finally wake up and find you already have communism. We won't have to fight you; we'll so weaken your economy until you fall like overripe fruit into our hands."

-Soviet Leader Nikita Khrushchev, 1959